[12:10] <dexcel> ** WARNING **: alsa_setup(): Failed to open pcm device (default): Dispositivo o recurso ocupado, cuando trato de acceder a xmms tampoco funciona mplayer se keda pegado, xine funciona pero sin audio
[12:13] <crimsun> dexcel, are you using the esound output plugin?
[12:13] <dexcel> I'm using alsa 
[12:14] <crimsun> dexcel, which apps don't give sound?
[12:14] <dexcel> apps?
[12:14] <ogra> crimsun, note that ltsp has no sound for the thin clinets in this release...
[12:15] <ogra> in fact i'm thinking about disabling all sound apps in the default install and leave them only in the workstation version...
[12:15] <crimsun> dexcel, are you using ltsp then?
[12:15] <ogra> (just maes no sense in edubuntu)
[12:16] <dexcel> ltsp no
[12:16] <ogra> crimsun, sound would play on the server if you'd use it on the thin client...
[12:16] <dexcel> what is it?
[12:16] <ogra> dexcel, which edubuntu build do you use ? 
[12:16] <dexcel> Hoary
[12:17] <ogra> dexcel, there is no edubuntu hoary
[12:17] <crimsun> ogra, it'll take me a bit to adjust to all the different environments; please forgive me if my questions are initially irrelevant to certain edubuntu builds
[12:17] <ogra> crimsun, they arent...
[12:17] <dexcel> xD
[12:17] <dexcel> I dont now
[12:18] <dexcel> I'm wrong
[12:18] <dexcel> xD
[12:18] <dexcel> sorry
[12:18] <ogra> crimsun, and i'd like to abuse your genius for dapper for getting soudd to the thin clients :)
[12:18] <crimsun> ogra, sure :)
[12:18] <ogra> crimsun, do you plan to attend UBZ ?
[12:18] <crimsun> ogra, unfortunately I can't take off work :/
[12:19] <ogra> gah.... thast bad...
[12:19] <ogra> i'd love to develop a rocking new network sound architecture... nas seems just not approriate, but thats what most old ltsp setup use ...
[12:20] <ogra> crimsun, do you have an idea how our ltsp works ?
[12:20] <crimsun> ogra, nope, trying to eek out time to look at it
[12:21] <ogra> its asy...
[12:21] <ogra> easy even...
[12:21] <ogra> the thin clients boot kernel and xserver from the server via tftp and nfs and drop you to an login screen...
[12:22] <ogra> if you log in there, the login manager establishes a ssh connection to the server and runs a gnome session there...
[12:22] <crimsun> ok
[12:23] <ogra> (same as running ssh -X $(server) Xsession from a bare xserver on your PC to another pc)
[12:23] <ogra> so everything runs on the server...
[12:23] <ogra> i guess you see the problem with sound on the clients :)
[12:24] <crimsun> ah yes.
[12:24] <ogra> since the only sound HW thats available or the desktop is the soundcard of the server :)
[12:24] <ogra> s/r/for
[12:24] <ogra> grr 
[12:24] <ogra> s/or/for
[12:25] <ogra> s/soundcard/sound daemon/
[12:25] <siretart> I'm not convinced about that ssh -X solution
[12:25] <siretart> it breaks quite some things..
[12:25] <ogra> siretart, its what even ltsp mainline will use in future releases
[12:25] <ogra> they are just adopting it
[12:25] <ogra> skole too
[12:26] <siretart> I assume because of better performance, yes?
[12:26] <ogra> its a big improvement over the current ltsp
[12:26] <ogra> nope
[12:26] <ogra> in fact its a bit slower
[12:27] <ogra> siretart, but you know how evil xhost and unencrypted tcp X connections are
[12:28] <ogra> one of the biggest probs in school environments  (at least thats what i was told at the kole summit i attended) is security
[12:28] <siretart> I know
[12:28] <ogra> s/kole/skole
[12:28] <siretart> ah. okay
[12:28] <magnon> ogra: they told you that in Norway?
[12:28] <ogra> if you do exams and tests with 14 year old script kiddies, be surethey know how to sniff the traffic of the neighbor ;) 
[12:28] <magnon> in that case, it's rubbish
[12:29] <magnon> it might be a problem, but far from the biggest one
[12:29] <siretart> so we need a network transparent sound architecture, which works across ssh sessions.. tough..
[12:29] <ogra> magnon, they didnt say *the* biggest ... one o the biggest
[12:29] <magnon> ogra: I still don't really agree
[12:29] <ogra> siretart, that'd be cool...
[12:29] <magnon> a problem, which is behind many
[12:30] <crimsun> hmm, gstreamer has network streaming, but I've not tested it
[12:30] <magnon> gstreamer is a viable solution, I hope
[12:30] <ogra> siretart, but tht would require a ssh server on the client... which again isnt really nice
[12:30] <ogra> crimsun, it should be tunneled and encrypted network streaming :)
[12:31] <magnon> it shouldn't be hard to hack up a somewhat encrypted gst pipeline either, if it's not already done
[12:31] <magnon> ogra: has a lower level solution been thought of?
[12:31] <magnon> in the terms of IPSec
[12:31] <magnon> etc.
[12:31] <ogra> magnon, thats what i'm searching for for dapper
[12:31] <magnon> that would solve many a problem
[12:31] <ogra> as low as possible but also as secure as possible
[12:32] <magnon> not that LTSP shouldn't seek sleeker solutions to many things
[12:32] <magnon> the handling of client devices is godawful
[12:32] <magnon> and by no means secure
[12:32] <ogra> yup, thats another task to solve in dapper
[12:32] <ogra> we kept the hard things for dapper ;)
[12:32] <magnon> usb device onto desktop and such
[12:32] <magnon> actually, I'd hope it to be as transparent as possible
[12:33] <ogra> local devices, local sound are the biggest ltsp goals we have thert
[12:33] <siretart> what happens if you plug in a usb stick in the thin client?
[12:33] <magnon> not much :P
[12:33] <ogra> nothing
[12:34] <magnon> you can set up stuff so you get a samba mount to it
[12:34] <siretart> ah, sure, because of that ssh 'solution'
[12:34] <ogra> but if you plug it in on the server all users see it :)
[12:34] <ogra> siretart, nope
[12:34] <ogra> siretart, because of the ltsp solution... 
[12:34] <siretart> ja
[12:34] <ogra> its not different in the original ltsp
[12:35] <ogra> it has alsways been a problem...
[12:36] <ogra> thast why we didnt target it for this release... it requires a good thinking and new ideas
[12:36] <magnon> I'm wondering if HAL could play a role
[12:37] <ogra> siretart, there is no big difference in functionality between the ltsp solutions... be it the old or our ltsp...
[12:37] <siretart> magnon: you would need to make hal network transparent.. quite tough..
[12:37] <ogra> magnon, you thats my idea...
[12:37] <ogra> a tunneld dbus connection... 
[12:37] <ogra> running the hal backend on the thin client, tunneling it to the server and using it there on the desktop
[12:37] <siretart> and how to access block devices over the net?
[12:38] <magnon> ogra: does HAL have any permission infrastructure?
[12:38] <magnon> siretart: would be about the same with HAL... if HAL first works, it should be easy to adapt to more stuff
[12:38] <ogra> siretart, thats also only doable through weird hack in both environments
[12:38] <ogra> magnon, nope, but dbus ;)
[12:38] <magnon> ogra: aha
[12:39] <ogra> but in any case it looks like we cant avoid running a ssh server on the client :/
[12:39] <magnon> hmm
[12:39] <magnon> it would be solved with another lower level solution
[12:40] <magnon> I'd say IPSec should be more optimised for sustained transfer rates too
[12:40] <ogra> kernel access to the client over the net ? 
[12:40] <ogra> *shudder*
[12:40] <magnon> yeah, isn't that cute? :)
[12:40] <magnon> :P
[12:40] <siretart> magnon: did you really deploy ipsec in a comparable environment yet?
[12:40] <magnon> siretart: No
[12:40] <magnon> :)
[12:40] <magnon> I'm just thinking it should be possible
[12:41] <siretart> its a beast
[12:41] <magnon> in what way?
[12:41] <siretart> to configure it. been there, done that
[12:41] <magnon> and in what way is it more of a bestial solution than anything else of the ltsp nightmare? :P
[12:41] <ogra> i think sshd is the way to go... tunneling dbus and audio streams through it... mounting local devices via sftp...
[12:42] <magnon> ogra: session suspend should also be thought of - there's been a tiny bit of work in that department
[12:42] <siretart> ogra: how to unmount with sftp connections?
[12:42] <magnon> that's tricky
[12:42] <magnon> you'd need to unmount usb sticks and such
[12:42] <shaga> hows the xss doing ogra? 
[12:42] <ogra> thats a hal job
[12:42] <magnon> FAT for instance behaves badly
[12:43] <ogra> shaga, with a little luck i'm done after the running build
[12:43] <shaga> oh, thats good news :)
[12:43] <ogra> low level mounting should be done by hal like we do it currently in ubuntu
[12:44] <magnon> oh just great
[12:44] <ogra> mounting on FS level can be done via sftp
[12:44] <magnon> running out of battery and forgot my charger :P
[12:44] <ogra> now you need to get both to play together (maybe via hal too) 
[12:44] <magnon> ah well
[12:44] <magnon> goodnight
[12:44] <ogra> night magnon 
[12:45] <ogra> siretart, unmounting should be easy if you send the commands through a tunneled dbus connection to the clients hal
[12:46] <ogra> indeed this binds us very much on hal and dbus... as long as KDE doesnt use it, KDE desktops will be a no go ...
[12:47] <siretart> will think about it
[12:47] <siretart> need some sleep now. gn8
[12:48] <ogra> night
[02:06] <shaga> http://dome.seamk.fi/~o0200231/farmsluts_300.mov the best short video I've ever seen :p
[02:07] <shaga> comedy
[08:47] <JaneW> morning
[08:48] <JaneW> highvoltage: thanks for the awesom music - I managed to run around the common twice last night :)
[08:51] <highvoltage> JaneW: isn't that a dangerous area?
[08:52] <highvoltage> bbl
[08:54] <JaneW> highvoltage: nope, I think it used to be when the grass was over 6 feet high, but it's kept short now, and there are plenty of ppl around. I wouldn't recommend venturing into the middle of the common alone at night, but the perimieter seems perfectly safe.
[09:20] <guim> Hi all, just a question : 
[09:20] <guim> I guess you all have read about this : laptop.media.mit.edu
[09:20] <guim> anyone knows which distirb is going to be installed on it?
[09:21] <guim> edubuntu ? ;-)
[09:22] <guim> "MIT will work with a small number of companies of complementary skills to develop a fully working and manufactured laptop (50,000 to 100,000 units) in fewer than 12 months, with an eye on building about 100 million to 200 million units by the following year"
[09:22] <guim> that will be "quiet a nice visibility" for the distrib...
[09:23] <JaneW> hi guim
[09:23] <guim> hi JaneW 
[09:23] <JaneW> you can contact Mako for more info\
[09:24] <JaneW> he has just left the formal employ of Canonical to work at MIT with the guy running this project
[09:24] <guim> nice!
[09:24] <JaneW> he is still very involved with Ubuntu and is part of the foundation and heads up the Community Council
[09:24] <JaneW> mako@ubuntu.com
[09:25] <guim> i see who is mako, actually i met him in france and he allowed me to contact/find you some months ago
[09:26] <guim> so if mako is involved in this, do you think that those 100$ laptop are going to be installed with ubuntu ?
[09:27] <guim> "we are living in a small world" ;-)
[09:30] <jsg_> mako is involved with it
[09:31] <jsgotangco> guim, most probably debian :)
[09:31] <jsgotangco> not necessarily ubuntu
[09:32] <guim> ok
[09:34] <jsgotangco> guim, the key here is mass production
[09:34] <guim> I guess so
[09:35] <guim> 1 Gb storage is not a lot at all, it won't be even possible to install a lot of software 
[09:35] <jsgotangco> guim, sure if it had basic stuff
[09:36] <jsgotangco> students don't need graphics intensive stuff in te first place
[09:36] <guim> yes, but how big is openoffice 2 once installed?
[09:37] <guim> the linux itself with gnome/kde
[09:37] <guim> then some "educative" programs like gcompris or others, that is also a lot of images, maybe sounds
[09:38] <guim> 1 gb will be really very fastly complete!
[10:29] <Burgundavia> guim, jsgotangco red hat is partnering for the $100 laptop
[10:29] <guim> mmm, ok
[10:30] <jsgotangco> nice
[10:32] <Burgundavia> thus it is likely to be a gnome desktop
[10:32] <JaneW> might be a good candidate for Ubuntu Lite
[10:33] <Burgundavia> the machine is actualy fairly beefy
[10:33] <Burgundavia> 500mhz will run gnome just fine
[10:39] <JaneW> hehe, I found it http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=939
[10:39] <JaneW> ran at 5Mhz
[10:40] <JaneW> jsgotangco: hehe 
[10:41] <jsgotangco> seriously...
[10:42] <JaneW> we did have an abacus, we just had little cubes that could connect to each other to make a tower, for working out sums.
[10:42] <JaneW> I started teaching my 5 y/o 'sums' the other day
[10:42] <JaneW> he corrected me and told me it's called 'mathematics'!
[10:42] <JaneW> I guess I don't need to teach him anything
[10:43] <jsgotangco> haha
[10:44] <jsgotangco> may daughter doesn't like her toy laptop, she prefers using a real computer sheeshhh
[10:53] <JaneW> I thought they were probably pretty limited and not worth it
[10:54] <jsgotangco> yes
[10:54] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, bleah
[10:54] <jsgotangco> you're missing the whole point of existence
[10:54] <Burgundavia> I prefer not to think that point of existance is the creation of more little monsters
[10:54] <jsgotangco> the chinese say to gain immortality you need to do 3 things
[10:55] <jsgotangco> 1.) plant a tree
[10:55] <jsgotangco> 2.) write a book
[10:55] <Burgundavia> check
[10:55] <Burgundavia> nope
[10:55] <jsgotangco> 3.) have children
[10:55] <Burgundavia> 4.) have lots of money to get frozen when you die of cancer
[10:56] <jsgotangco> 4. is the western view
[10:56] <jsgotangco> and doesnt work at the moment
[10:56] <Burgundavia> I am sorry I was born in Western country
[10:58] <jsgotangco> do people actually pay to get frozen
[10:58] <jsgotangco> hehe
[10:59] <JaneW> cryogenics
[10:59] <JaneW> it's cheaper to freeze just your head
[10:59] <JaneW> it can be attached to a different body when you are thawed
[11:03] <jsgotangco> JaneW, yuck
[11:04] <JaneW> ;)
[11:04] <jsgotangco> attach my head to fabio's body
[11:04] <jsgotangco> not fabbione
[11:14] <JaneW> LOL
[11:14] <JaneW> fabio is creepy!
 might be interesting to the people on this channel. :)
[11:27] <jsgotangco> JaneW, any idea how this works: http://www.ubuntu.com/partners/program
[11:27] <JaneW> jsgotangco: no not really - contact silbs
[11:29] <jsgotangco> heh
[12:00] <magnon> w 7
[12:00] <magnon> uhm.
[01:10] <ogra> pere, ping
[01:10] <magnon> hey ogra
[01:10] <ogra> hi :)
[01:11] <magnon> yay for several organisations to hide beneath :P
[01:11] <JaneW> mail me or call on mobile if you need me
[01:11] <magnon> have fun
[01:12] <JaneW> thanks
[01:12] <JaneW> bye
[01:12] <pere> ogra: pong
[01:12] <magnon> bye
[01:12] <ogra> JaneW, enjoy nature ;)
[01:12] <JaneW> ogra: thanks - I love it
[01:12] <ogra> pere, mdz forwarded me your mail with the /etc/eport changes etc... 
[01:12] <ogra> export even
[01:13] <ajmitch_> hi all :)
[01:13] <ogra> pere, you know that we have a udeb in ubuntu to build the chroot from cd before first reboot on install ?` 
[01:13] <pere> ogra: no, I didn't know that.
[01:13] <pere> ogra: why solve it at that point?
[01:13] <ogra> it avoids the need of an online connection
[01:14] <ogra> hey ajmitch_ :)
[01:15] <ogra> pere, else deboostrap needs an online connection or you have to do odd things like generation a Packages.gz for /var/cache/apt/archives
[01:15] <ogra> *generating
[01:15] <pere> ogra: are you sure?  I would expect my approach would work just fine if one added ltsp-server to the list of packages to install from within d-i.
[01:16] <ogra> pere, deboostrap needs a Packages.gz or any kind of real archive for ltsp-build-client...
[01:16] <pere> yes, and this is on the CD.
[01:17] <pere> debootstrap can run just fine using a CD.
[01:25] <ogra_> hmm, did i mention I LOVE MY PROVIDER !
[01:25] <ogra_> grrr
[01:25] <ogra_> pere... guess you didnt get my last sentences
[01:25] <ogra_> yes, it does that with the udeb
[01:25] <ogra_> it didnt work with the postinst approach i tried...
[01:25] <ogra_> when do you install ltsp-server ? from base-config or before reboot ? 
[01:25] <ogra_> mdz wanted to use the chached contents from /var/cache/apt/archives originally...
[01:25] <ogra_> (speeds up a lot, but will require lots of changes to the script)
[01:32] <pere> I planned to do it from base-config, but did not test this yet.
[01:32] <pere> I planned to do it similarly to the way we install lessdisks, from base-config using the CD.
[01:33] <pere> when installing from CD, isn't the content in the apt cache just symlinks to the CD?
[01:33] <ogra_> but that requires to ask the user to insert the CD again...
[01:33] <ogra_> nope
[01:33] <ogra_> the last thing d-i does is copying all packages to /var/cache/apt/archives 
[01:33] <ogra_> (at least in ubuntu)
[01:34] <pere> right.  I'm not sure if that happens in debian.
[01:34] <ogra_> aha
[01:34] <pere> ok, so I start to understand the constraints you are working under. :)
[01:35] <ogra_> then you should install it before reboot :)
[01:35] <ogra_> yes, we have it a bit easier *g*
[01:35] <pere> what is the name of the udeb source?  URL?
[01:35] <ogra_> ltsp-client-builder
[01:35] <ogra_> wait a sec
[01:36] <ogra_> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/ltsp-client-builder/
[01:36] <ogra_> it still needs some love for the progress reporting, but registrs in he installer menu as separate option 
[01:38] <pere> you might find the script used to install lessdisks interesting.  <URL:http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debian-edu/trunk/src/debian-edu-config/bin/debian-edu-lessdisks?op=file&rev=0&sc=0>
[01:39] <ogra_> will have a look
[01:39] <ogra_> i'm finally also subscribed to ltsp-devel
[01:39] <pere> ogra_: great.  I read it using gmane.org personally.
[01:40] <ogra_> my next big goal is to generate the dhcp.conf dynamically... i need to solve that before release
[01:40] <pere> adding mac-addresses, you mean?
[01:41] <ogra_> nope
[01:41] <ogra_> generating the file in /etc/ltsp dynamically so dhcp-server can start immediately after install
[01:42] <ogra_> with a debconf question (supressed in ubuntu) to which interface to bind to
[01:43] <pere> right.
[01:43] <ogra_> grabbing the ip range from ethX, asking for GW and range for the thin clients
[01:43] <ogra_> so it will be preseedable...
[01:44] <ogra_> night ajmitch_ 
[03:11] <Gand> hi all
[03:16] <Gand> I need a DB, have I to install MySQL or PostgreSQL?
[03:17] <magnon> depends on your needs ;)
[03:17] <magnon> for simplicity's sake, MySQL
[03:20] <Gand> thank. But I see that Postgresql is yet installed on edubuntu
[03:21] <Gand> I know how to manage Mysql, but I wonder if I can use Postgresql as it is installed yet
[03:22] <ogra> sure you can :)
[03:22] <Gand> it was to have not 2 DB on the machine
[03:22] <Gand> how  I can?
[03:22] <ogra> then remove it, its easy
[03:23] <Gand> for example, there is a root password to set as in MySQL?
[03:23] <ogra> nope
[03:23] <ogra> postgres runs as the user postgres
[03:23] <Gand> how I start Postgresql?
[03:24] <ogra> postgres is much more scalable than mysql and is the one we support by default in ubuntu
[03:24] <ogra> it starts automatically on boot...
[03:24] <ogra> you can stop it with "sudo /etc/init.d/postgresql-8.0 start"
[03:25] <ogra> (or stop it with stop...restart with restart)
[03:25] <ogra> it has a sql console similar to oracle...
[03:25] <Gand> some CMS ask user and pw of database to connect to
[03:25] <ogra> (use the psql command)
[03:26] <Gand> there are some Administrator tools fot postgre as for mysql?
[03:26] <ogra> its the one you have given it... by default there is no DB... we're just fixing moodle to create the initial DB on install
[03:27] <ogra> sure
[03:28] <Gand> in "add applications" I find only a MySQL adminstrator, not a postgres one
[03:28] <Gand> you know, I'm a GUI (graphical user interface) monkey :)
[03:28] <ogra> you can try phppgadmin
[03:29] <ogra> its similar to phpmyadmin
[03:29] <Gand> anyway I succed starting apache and PHP :)
[03:29] <Gand> now only DB left
[03:30] <ogra> i was just told pgadmin3 is the best gui tool for postgres so far
[03:30] <ogra> but you really dont need to stick with postgres if you dont like it
[03:31] <Gand> If I wish to install moodle, what I've to do for DB user and pw? postgre/my pw?
[03:31] <ogra> Gand, btw, our postgres maintainer is pitti in #ubuntu-devel he can give more detailed answers :)
[03:32] <ogra> Gand, nothing with the (soon to be fixed) moodle package we will ship
[03:32] <ogra> it will create everything automatically for you...
[03:32] <Gand> thank, I wait :)
[03:32] <ogra> so you can start through right away :)
[03:32] <Gand> for a dummy  like me :) nice
[03:33] <ogra> thats the atrget of edubuntu... make it as easy as we can for users ;)
[03:33] <ogra> *target
[03:33] <Gand> This is why I'm using edubuntu :)
[03:34] <Gand> thank ogra I've to go to now, I'm on late to get my son from school
[03:34] <Gand> see you thank
[04:01] <Yagisan> Hi ogra - beaten xss into submission yet ?
[04:02] <ogra> yup...
[04:02] <Yagisan> excellent
[04:02] <Yagisan> you'll actually get some sleep now ?
[04:02] <shaga> I love the new login after lock up :p
[04:03] <ogra> nope, not much sleep for me...
[04:03] <ogra> i'll have to finish edubuntu ...
[04:03] <ogra> i lost 10 workdays through the screensaver... unplanned
[04:04] <Yagisan> ouch
[04:04] <Yagisan> I started my upgrade to breezy today
[04:04] <Yagisan> but as I was tired i burned i386 instead of amd64
[04:04] <ogra> fun
[04:05] <Yagisan> I noticed that right after I blew away the system
[04:19] <magnon> ok
[04:19] <magnon> time to go see dream theater :)
[04:26] <john_b> Hello, I'm trying to get stand-alone box to route through Edubuntu box. Not having any success. I can ping the interface but cannot ping past it. I have enabled ip_forward. Any suggestions?
[04:27] <ogra> john_b, you use ltsp ? 
[04:27] <john_b> yes
[04:27] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientHowtoNAT
[04:27] <ogra> voila :)
[04:27] <john_b> thank you :-)
[04:28] <ogra> i'll merge that to the edubuntu wiki for release i think :)
[04:35] <pere> ogra: I had a look at the udeb.  minor nitpick:
[04:35] <ogra> go ahead :)
[04:35] <pere> ogra: I suggest renaming 'LTSP chroot environment' to 'LTSP client environment'.
[04:35] <ogra> yup, noted, will do....
[04:36] <ogra> the text was Kamions suggestion
[04:36] <ogra> thats all already ? 
[04:37] <pere> yes.  and I suspect some medium(or same as the main menu)-priority note should give feedback if the CD is missing so no ltsp installation will take place.
[04:37] <pere> I have just read the source so far. :)
[04:38] <john_b> ogra: I have no issue with the thin clients. I can't seem to figure out how to enable server as a gateway for regular boxes.
[04:38] <pere> ogra: actually, I believe the check for the CD should be moved into a test to decide if the menu entry should appear at all.
[04:38] <Yagisan> does everything in the 'LTSP client environment' get executed on the client ?
[04:38] <john_b> thanks though
[04:38] <ogra> hmm, i havent thought about a case where the CD isnt available, since we use the udeb in a place where its sure the CD is mounted...
[04:38] <Yagisan> I'm reading (/usr/sbin/ltsp-build-client)
[04:39] <pere> Yagisan: ltspb-build-client is executed on the server, and build a installation to be exectued on the clients.
[04:40] <Yagisan> so - everything in the chroot it makes - gets run in the client right ?
[04:40] <pere> ogra: are you using baz for this package?  I want to upload it into debian.  any view on how we could cooperate about it?
[04:40] <ogra> john_b, if you use the regular boxes in the same network as the thin clients, that should be trivial...
[04:40] <Yagisan> (I tired so I'm a bit slow today)
[04:40] <ogra> pere, i still suck with baz...
[04:41] <pere> ogra: is there a version control repository for this package?
[04:41] <ogra> (mdz is a bit concerned about that..)
[04:41] <ogra> nope
[04:41] <ogra> i'll have to set it up for ltsp anyway...
[04:41] <ogra> so stay tuned and feel free to take the source package until then
[04:42] <ogra> i wanted to merge the udeb into the main ltsp source later
[04:42] <pere> why later?  I'm all for merging it into the debian package now. :)
[04:43] <Yagisan> I think I might be able to add support for i386/amd64 specific chroots to /usr/sbin/ltsp-build-client
[04:43] <Yagisan> it doesn't seem to hard (famous last words ...)
[04:43] <pere> getting debootstrap to cross-build will be hard.
[04:44] <Yagisan> would probably need qemu for other arches
[04:44] <ogra> pere, because i dont touch the package, thats mdz's domain.... i need to hae a proper baz archive he can merge first
[04:44] <ogra> i'll set it up this weekend and add the script for dhcp.conf generation
[04:45] <pere> ogra: ok, so if I add it to my ubuntufixes branch, he would merge it?
[04:45] <ogra> i think so
[04:45] <john_b> On server eth0 is 192.168.2.20 the default gateway is 192.168.2.1 - eth1 = 192.168.0.1
[04:45] <ogra> he's away over the wekend though
[04:46] <john_b> from standalone eth0 = 192.168.0.210 I can ping 192.168.2.20
[04:46] <john_b> but not 192.168.2.1
[04:46] <pere> 100$ laptop, <URL: http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/09/28/HNmitlaptop_1.html>
[04:46] <ogra> yup, saw it
[04:46] <Yagisan> pere: yeah - but we can't buy it
[04:46] <ogra> they look for edu distros i heard
[04:46] <ogra> Yagisan, not planned afaik
[04:47] <ogra> john_b, hmm, sounds like a routing problem...
[04:48] <john_b> root@edubuntu:/var/log# route
[04:48] <john_b> Kernel IP routing table
[04:48] <john_b> Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
[04:48] <john_b> localnet        *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
[04:48] <john_b> 192.168.0.0     *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
[04:48] <john_b> default         192.168.2.1     0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
[04:48] <ogra> hmm
[04:48] <Yagisan> thats about $140AU for me
[04:49] <pere> 192.168.0.210 is not on the  192.168.2.1  subnet when netmask is 255.255.255.0.  try 255.255.254.0.
[04:49] <john_b> I should be able to trouble shoot this but In K12LTSP I never had to learn, it just worked
[04:50] <Yagisan> john_b: kernel ip forwarding enabled ? as pere mentioned you have two separate class c networks
[04:50] <ogra> Yagisan, its thought for third world countries... and will be given away to organizations only i heard... i doubt anyone considers .au a third world country, but who knows :)
[04:50] <Yagisan> ogra: With John Howard in charge - we will be a third world country soon
[04:50] <ogra> john_b, we'll sort that out for the next release to work automatically
[04:51] <ogra> Yagisan, ah, come on, at least you *have* a government.... germany doesnt even know where it goes ;)
[04:51] <pere> ogra: well, the network policy in .au is taken from some third world country.
[04:51] <john_b> well as long as I've been running k12 labs I really should have a handle on this so this is not a bad thing 
[04:51] <Yagisan> he's doing a great job at running down workers rights, education etc
[04:51] <ogra> pere, heh, true...
[04:52] <Yagisan> it becoming more like the USA :( (I like pepole from the USA - I just don't want to be like them)
[04:53] <john_b> part of my problem is I am accustom to RH commands
[04:53] <john_b> ip forwarding is enabled
[04:54] <john_b> root@edubuntu:/var/log# cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
[04:54] <john_b> 1
[04:54] <john_b> root@edubuntu:/var/log#
[04:54] <ogra> pere, do you see that in debian ? http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15244
[04:54] <Yagisan> john_b: may I ask why you are using two class C adresses ?
[04:55] <pere> ogra: I have not heard any reports, but I have not tested such quick re-login myself.
[04:55] <john_b> Yes I have a gateway device that supplies internet addresses to my test Umbuntu box and my wife and sons computers
[04:55] <Yagisan> if it's a test lab - why don't you set up a class A or B (10.x.x.x or 172.16.x.x)
[04:56] <ogra> pere, its not *this* quick...
[04:56] <pere> Yagisan: there is no class A, B and C networks anymore.  it went away during the nineties.
[04:56] <john_b> well I can but the thing is I was trying to duplicat my old k12 set up
[04:56] <ogra> pere, and i see it also with a normal ssh -X session...
[04:57] <pere> Yagisan: /8, /16 and /24 is their new name, along with the 29 other network sizes. :)
[04:57] <Yagisan> pere: I know - but it is easier to describe in those terms
[04:57] <pere> Yagisan: perhaps.  in this case I suggest to use a /23 if he have all the machines on the same network.
[04:57] <Yagisan> pere: just like I use the rainbow books instead of "Common Critera" for work
[04:59] <john_b> I run 4 LTSP server at work and am getting my feet wet on umbuntu so I'm up to speed come spring when I'm planning on switching from Fedora
[05:02] <john_b> I'll change the ltsp network over to a Class A  aka /8
[05:02] <Yagisan> ok
[05:03] <pere> ogra: did you see the changes we did to the debian ltsp version?  I've sent the patches to mdz, but he have not merged them yet.  adding support for several of the ltsp options (mouse settings, etc).
[05:04] <ogra> john_b, in case youre interested in a more pretty login dialog for the clients (themeable, but didnt make it in this release): http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/
[05:04] <pere> ogra: also splitting ldm out into a separate package, to allow it to be used with lessdisks as well as a normal debian installation.
[05:04] <ogra> pere, nope
[05:04] <john_b> well now that you mention it...
[05:04] <ogra> pere, yes, that was my plan too... 
[05:04] <ogra> pere, see the url above for ldm-ng :)
[05:04] <Yagisan> pere: does that include local apps ?
[05:07] <pere> ogra: I recommend hanging out on #ltsp to learn more about the stuff we do with ltsp.
[05:07] <ogra> i'll do :)
[05:07] <john_b> The login as it is, is not very good. It requires a mouse over and hitting enter rather than clicking the button fails
[05:07] <pere> the ldm split is done, and found to work fine.  next I was considering splitting out the printer server/forwarder system.
[05:08] <ogra> yup, someting i'll have to fix
[05:08] <ogra> pere, its not done in ubunt and i dont know mdz's pans
[05:08] <ogra> plans
[05:09] <pere> he said he wanted to split out ldm.  that is why I went ahead and did it.
[05:09] <ogra> ah
[05:09] <pere> but he wanted to wait until the freeze was over.
[05:10] <ogra> feel free to grab my tgz then, its a gdm rewrite in python :)
[05:10] <ogra> only 250 lines of code
[05:11] <ogra> (sorry, the tgz contains the themes too, that makes it a bit big)
[05:11] <pere> fixed the focus problem?
[05:11] <ogra> no focus needed
[05:11] <john_b> ogra, mdz helped me work through the "nfs" bug. I then came to realize he is one of the developers I gather you are too?
[05:11] <ogra> yup
[05:11] <ogra> he's my boss
[05:11] <shaga> can you believe how many times 'make' is being said in this channel? it's my nickname from markus.. :D
[05:12] <shaga> hilights
[05:12] <ogra> john_b, the nfs bug ?
[05:12] <john_b> well I've been waiting for over three years for a debian based k12ltsp thanks for all the work
[05:12] <john_b> yes 
[05:13] <john_b> I'll get the bugzilla #
[05:13] <ogra> 12942 ?
[05:13] <john_b> yep
[05:13] <ogra> it works for you ? 
[05:13] <john_b> yes
[05:14] <ogra> how ? 
[05:14] <ogra> i tried a million things now
[05:14] <ogra> its my worst bug currently
[05:14] <john_b> I edited lts.conf instead of the suggested file
[05:14] <ogra> grmpf... why didnt mdz tell me...
[05:14] <ogra> ah
[05:15] <john_b> jammcq helped too
[05:15] <ogra> hmm, so thats only a workaround then...
[05:15] <ogra> the right fix needs to go into initramfs ... which currently doesnt accept nfs root options
[05:17] <ogra> john_b, could you mail me the lts.conf you use ? (ogra@ubuntu.com)
[05:17] <john_b> It was a work around. But since then there was an update and I then had to comment out the "fix"
[05:17] <john_b> I still have a number of errors when booting up a client
[05:18] <john_b> but I'm working one now
[05:18] <ogra> but no timeouts ? 
[05:18] <john_b> not since the update
[05:18] <ogra> during next week we'll have usplash for the thin clients :)
[05:19] <john_b> # the following added to deal with nfs timeout bug
[05:19] <john_b> #prompt 0
[05:19] <john_b> #label linux
[05:19] <john_b> #  kernel vmlinuz-2.6.12-9-386
[05:19] <john_b> #  append init=/linuxrc rw root=/dev/ram0 initrd=initrd.img-2.6.12-9-386   MOPTS=nolock,ro,wsize=2048,rsize=2 048
[05:19] <ogra> then the erros get hidden from the user at least *g*
[05:19] <jsgotangco> ogra: were you able to receive my message re: edubuntu doc svn?
[05:19] <john_b> that is what worked for me. But not needed since update
[05:19] <ogra> jsgotangco, only that they are ready...
[05:20] <ogra> hmm, i had to hack on other stuff, i'll do my first ltsp install after 10 days this weekend again... lets see if its gone for me too
[05:21] <pere> ogra: are you aware how to test ltsp in qemu?
[05:21] <ogra> nope
[05:21] <ogra> i have enough HW around :)
[05:21] <pere> right.  recepe at the end of <URL: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/MueKow >
[05:21] <jsgotangco> nice
[05:21] <Yagisan> ogra: stop bragging
[05:22] <ogra> pere, thanks, bookmarked
[05:25] <Yagisan> is that pronounced moo cow ?
[05:25] <pere> don't know. I would probably pronounce it that way. :)
[05:26] <Yagisan> pere: you are from Debian ?
[05:26] <pere> I'm from Ballangen, Norway. :)
[05:26] <pere> I'm a skolelinux/debian-edu and debian developer, among other things.
[05:27] <jsgotangco> JaneW: i hope About Ubuntu has been cleared up
[05:28] <Yagisan> cool - I'm from Sydney, Australia. (why do I always seem to log on when no one is up in my timezone ?)
[05:29] <jsgotangco> hey
[05:29] <jsgotangco> i looovvee sydney
[05:31] <Yagisan> I only been around New South Wales and Qeensland
[05:31] <Yagisan> haven't made it to the other states yet
[05:32] <jsgotangco> yeah AU is a big place
[05:32] <ogra> jsgotangco, she's gone for the weekend very early today
[05:32] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[05:32] <jsgotangco> lucky girl
[05:32] <Yagisan> jsgotangco: yep - about the same size as continental USA
[05:33] <ogra> jsgotangco, but since the about-ubuntu stuff just breaks loose hell, i'm not sure if i can manage that ? i have not a minute planned to redo the whole edubuntu-artwork package
[05:33] <Yagisan> I've also been to Tokyo, Japan a few times :-D
[05:33] <ogra> jsgotangco, (not only not planned... i just havent the time)
[05:33] <jsgotangco> ogra: i'm not getting you
[05:33] <ogra> and nobody knew that you wipe it out of ubuntu-artwork
[05:33] <pere> ogra: what is the about-ubuntu stuff?
[05:34] <ogra> jsgotangco, edubutu-artwork contains about-edubuntu
[05:34] <ogra> pere, the default firefox homepage
[05:34] <ogra> jsgotangco, as ubuntu-artwork did... until yesterday
[05:35] <jsgotangco> ogra: dude i'm not doing anything about it, its jbailey who is packaging really..
[05:35] <ogra> now everything got changed but nobody announced the change
[05:36] <ogra> jbailey decided to split out X localized versions and to ship them in another place  ?
[05:36] <ogra> i doubt that
[05:36] <jsgotangco> ogra: i have no idea of what he is doing really, he just pulls the stuff from svn...i cleaned up the svn to make it package friendly...
[05:36] <jsgotangco> im not the one packaging nor any from the documentation team
[05:37] <ogra> yes but who decided to split it into X locales ? 
[05:37] <ogra> and separate docs ? 
[05:37] <jsgotangco> it was done in hoary...
[05:37] <ogra> nope
[05:37] <jsgotangco> im not getting you really
[05:38] <ogra> apparently i just could replace the index.html page with edubuntu-artork...
[05:38] <ogra> i cant anymore
[05:38] <jsgotangco> because ubuntu-artwork overrrides it?
[05:39] <ogra> jsgotangco, i'm pretty annoyed that i have to redo the edubuntu-artwork package completely and i didnt have time planned for that... there were heavy changes to this doc that split it up into several other documents ... 
[05:39] <ogra> and apparently nobody notified this change...
[05:40] <pere> ogra: regarding the ldm-ng, how do you set the gui language?  using locale or some other value?  where is it set?
[05:40] <ogra> pere, not yet
[05:41] <ogra> but the right way would be using the locale from the server
[05:42] <pere> ogra: right.  sounds good.  the gdm maintainer in debian has refused to do this, which is why I am aware that there is an issue.
[05:44] <ogra> jsgotangco, i'm not ranting at *you* ...
[05:46] <Yagisan> anyone tried to get wine working with ltsp/edubuntu ?
[05:47] <jsgotangco> ogra: i have no clue really im sorry about that
[05:47] <pere> ogra: did you answer my question about the empty tarball for ltsp-client-builder?
[05:47] <ogra> jsgotangco, i'm ranting about missing communication and sudden changes, its not specific to this particular issue...
[05:48] <ogra> pere, err, nope
[05:48] <ogra> i didnt see the question, sorry
[05:48] <pere> ogra: there are no files in the tarball.
[05:48] <pere> why is the package not a native package (aka drop the -5, and use .5 instead).
[05:49] <ogra> pere, nope, it should be made a native package... :) i didt it 12h before preview release some time around 6am after two days of work without sleep :)
[05:49] <jsgotangco> ogra: ok wrong perception i'll just shut up next time
[05:50] <ogra> jsgotangco, but the doc team is one part of this issue (as well as other areas) i'd love to get a better inter team communication going all over the place...
[06:21] <pere> ogra: I'm integrating the udeb into the baz repository now, but am unsure if this is what mdz wants.
[06:22] <ogra> pere, actually he asked for it
[06:22] <pere> ok.  I'll commit, and ask him to merge.
[06:22] <ogra> fine....
[06:23] <pere> only need to modify control, rules and add the two files postinst and template.
[06:23] <ogra> yup
[06:23] <pere> the po/ directory seem like a dummy
[06:23] <ogra> it is
[06:24] <pere> the template lack _, nothing is translatable.
[06:24] <ogra> that'll be added post release
[06:24] <Yagisan> bye everyone - off to install the correct ubuntu arch now
[06:25] <ogra> heh, good luck Yagisan 
[06:25] <pere> hm, oh it does.  I'm not sure what happened, but must have looked at the wrong template.
[06:26] <ogra> but there are no translations yet anyway
[06:40] <pere> ogra: commited, and available from my baz mirror
[06:40] <ogra> great :)
[06:41] <pere> ogra: I guess you need to start using version control systems now. :)
[06:41] <ogra> nope, i needed to start long ago with it ;)
[06:42] <ogra> in fact i did, but did it wrong...
[06:42] <pere> I know that feeling.  It took a while before I stopped falling in the pits of bazaar.
[06:44] <ogra> i'm fine with the client side, just setting up a usable signed archive seems to be my prob
[06:45] <pere> right.  have not looked at the signed stuff.
[06:45] <ogra> i'm commiting my seed changes for edubuntu to our main server every day ... 
[06:46] <pere> ogra: are you aware of the isinstallable script in d-i?
[06:46] <ogra> but i didnt set this up and it gets merged automatically
[06:46] <ogra> nope, whyts that ?
[06:47] <pere> it is run by main-menu to check if a meny entry should be displayed or not.
[06:47] <ogra> ah...
[06:47] <pere> I believe it is a better choice than your iftest in postinst.
[06:47] <ogra> we dont use main-menu normally
[06:47] <pere> ?
[06:48] <pere> main-menu is an integral part of d-i.  I believe you use main-menu normally.
[06:48] <ogra> the ubuntu installer uses the menu only in expert mode... which no normal user ever sees
[06:48] <pere> ah, we talk about two different things.  you do not _see_ the menu, but you use it.
[06:48] <pere> main-menu is the controlling code in debian-installer.
[06:48] <ogra> ah, yes
[06:49] <pere> it loops over the other udebs, if they are "displayed" on the meny.
[06:49] <pere> and if isinstasllable return false, the entry is not on the menu, and not executed.
[06:50] <ogra> i have to ask Kamion about that one, i didnt see isinstallable anywhere in our udebs i inspected
[06:50] <pere> it isn't used that much. the bootload-installers and partman uses it.  and autopartkit, but I suspect you do not use that one.
[06:51] <pere> it can be confusing if meny entries disappear when something change in the environment.
[06:51] <pere> there is also the menutest script, but I am not sure what it does.  perhaps make it impossible for main-menu to select the entry by default.
[06:52] <ogra> ah, yes we use partman-auto, i think its  ubuntu specific thing
[06:56] <pere> partman-auto is in debian too
[06:57] <ogra> ah, i thought it was a ubuntu development from Kamion
[06:59] <pere> no idea where it came from, but it is in debian. :)
[06:59] <ogra> its our default partitioner :)
[07:11] <ogra> have fun
[07:32] <jsgotangco> good night all
[09:27] <john_b> hello, I have edubuntu installed with ltsp and I would like to change the subnet on the ltsp side. 
[09:27] <john_b> I changed  /etc/hosts.allow
[09:27] <john_b>  /etc/exports
[09:27] <john_b>  /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/lts.conf
[09:27] <john_b>  /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf 
[09:28] <john_b> but ended with a non-working ltsp
[09:28] <john_b> Am I missing a file that needs to be edited?
[09:30] <john_b> oh and I changed the nic address and subnet too.
[10:52] <JessicaX^> :o