Ubuntu 5.10 Starter Guide

=== jbailey sits down to fix the about-ubuntu FF page, and the entity errors. [03:38] hi jbailey [03:38] Heya Andrew [04:58] ajmitch: I could just solve all my problems my dropping it all in /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs and mapping the whole subtree onto there, couldn't I? [04:58] It's a bit ugly. =( [04:58] Do you happen to remember what Debian policy for docs is off hand? [04:58] (Since you were forced to read it much more recently than I. *g*) [04:58] umm [04:59] what are you suggesting to drop in /usr/share/doc ? [04:59] about-ubuntu and the faqguide, but the docbook files. [04:59] Or I could keep them all in /usr/share/ubuntu-docs [05:00] Any additional documentation that comes with the package may be installed at the discretion of the package maintainer. Text documentation should be installed in the directory /usr/share/doc/package, where package is the name of the package, and compressed with gzip -9 unless it is small. [05:00] I've always thought that docs in /usr/share/doc should be generally human usable with a commandline tool installed in base. [05:00] Hmm. [05:00] Is XML text? =) [05:00] so you can throw anything you want in there if you take that loosely :) [05:00] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-docs.html [05:00] sure [05:00] Tx [05:00] PDFs & PS are often found in /usr/share/doc [05:01] If your package comes with extensive documentation in a markup format that can be converted to various other formats you should if possible ship HTML versions in a binary package, in the directory /usr/share/doc/appropriate-package or its subdirectories.[76] [05:01] Great, so I'll just move it there, so they retain easy access to common. [05:01] ok [05:02] I think it's ugly, but I think it would be error prone for me to go through and tweak all the entities to allow me to change hte imgpath on the fly. =) [05:03] I'd say it would be very very bad to try & do that all :) === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Karl@ppp221-247.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-69-220.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:22] Right, things in /usr/share/doc get randomly compressed by debhelper. [06:22] Forgot that amusement. =) [06:24] Anyone know if ccache can be used with xsltproc? =) [06:27] Ah, doesn't look like it. [06:28] lol. [06:34] No more entity errors now to get the image. [06:38] Woohoo! No entity errors *and* and image. [06:38] Now to repeat 30 times for the other languages. =) [06:39] lol. wd :) === jbailey prepares for heavy sed fu. === Kamping_Kaiser re-adds sed to 'must learn' list [06:46] sed is fun: [06:46] sed -i -e 's#usr/share/ubuntu-docs/$.*$/faqguide#usr/share/ubuntu-docs/generic/faqguide/\1#' install [06:47] Simple thing that would just be annoying to write in a reliable way without regular expressions. [06:47] translated into English, what does that mean? [06:47] -i means replace-in-place. [06:47] So edit the file you're sed'ing directly. [06:47] -e is the regular expression. [06:47] install is the file I was working on. [06:48] When the regular expression starts with s, it's a search and replace. [06:48] The next character is the delimiter. Traditionally you'll see /, but since I'm working with pathnames, that would suck. [06:48] So the first clause: [06:48] usr/share/ubuntu-docs/$.*$/faqguide [06:49] Says match the real text of usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ [06:49] . means any character. [06:49] * means the previous character zero or more times. [06:49] regexps will always match as little as possible. [06:49] so when I have text after that, it will match before the .* does. [06:50] Wrapping it in ( ) means that I can use it as a variable in the second clause: [06:50] usr/share/ubuntu-docs/generic/faqguide/\1 [06:50] Where \1 is the contents of the ( ) [06:50] Refering to () set 1 [06:51] So: [06:51] usr/share/ubuntu-docs/sv/faqguide [06:51] Becomes [06:51] usr/share/ubuntu-docs/generic/faqguide/sv [06:51] huh === MadpilotPPC adds regexp to my 'really got to figure that out' list, which is already far too long... [06:52] ;) [06:52] >.< brain hurts [06:53] MadpilotPPC: I finally had someone explain to me how it all works internally. [06:53] *that* made my brain hurt. === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Karl@ppp221-247.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:42] jbailey, speak in english please heh [07:45] jsgotangco: Whups, sorry. What part of that did I explain poorly? [07:45] I usually try to be clear. regular expressions make it a bit hard, though. =) [07:45] jbailey: they're fun though :) [07:45] jbailey, nah i was just messing with you [07:46] jbailey: so what's planned for the 29th so far? :) [07:46] ajmitch: 29th? No idea. [07:46] I plan to get alot of sleep in prep for the 30th. =) [07:46] we start on the 30th, right? [07:46] or at least the love day is then [07:46] yup === ajmitch had better get his id ready for keysignings :) === Burgundavia needs to do the same [07:49] UBZ keysigning would be bigger for sure compared to UDU [07:49] so what name should I go under? :) [07:49] *sigh* [07:49] ajmitch: James Blackwell [07:50] jbailey: I couldn't take that away from you [07:50] jsgotangco: why is that? [07:51] because more devels outside ubuntu can actually come? [07:51] maybe, though I'm not sure just how many will turn up for such a thing [07:51] ajmitch: There are always junkies. =) [07:52] hah [07:52] the "gotta catch (get) 'em all" types? [07:52] you mean apart from the ones who fly halfway across the world for it? ;) [07:52] hehe [07:52] jbailey: I'll need to do the tourist thing for a bit after UBZ, I think :) [07:54] would be nice to watch hockey if its in season [07:54] or watch the expos [07:54] Aren't they still on strike? [07:54] jbailey, negatory [07:55] jsgotangco, expos moved to Washington [07:55] oohhh so montreal doesn't have baseball anymore [07:55] nope [07:56] i'd like to see circuit de gille villeneuve if i had the chance [07:56] Wow. The about-ubuntu stylesheet crashes firefox. [07:57] Gotta love it. [07:57] Especailly now that it's the start page on my box. =) === jbailey removes the stylesheet again. [07:58] When did Montral losethe baseball team? [07:58] Apparently I'm just right not up to date on sports atm. =) [07:58] 2003 [07:58] because they sucked [07:58] Righ. [07:58] I still miss the Grizzlies. =) [07:58] They had the best half-time shows. [07:59] they are thinking about moving the New Orleans team to Vancouver [07:59] And big-as-a-country would just kinda toddle across the court and throw people out of his way. [07:59] And if the ref didn't notice, he might score a baske. [07:59] Ahahah [07:59] On the grounds that it can't be worse? [07:59] yes [07:59] Or that most of Vancouver is already underwater, so they're ready for it this time? =) [07:59] canada isn't just a basketball country [07:59] sweet, cbc lockout might be ending [07:59] http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/10/03/CBCLO20051003.html?ref=rss [07:59] That'll be nice. [08:00] I emailed Keith Martin about evil ads on the cbc website [08:00] he told me he supports the idea === Burgundavia wishes CBC was as gutsy and bold as the BBC [08:00] evil ads/ [08:00] ? [08:01] CBC.ca is running dell ads [08:01] jbailey, montreal is still predominantly francophone right? [08:01] jsgotangco, mixed [08:01] Depends where you are. [08:01] I'd say 60% though. [08:01] the largest group of anglophones in Quebec is in Montreal [08:02] It was more in the summer. Now that the McGill students are in town, even the hardcore franco areas have alot of English. [08:02] people who decry it when the server serves then in French first [08:02] Burgundavia: you can be my translator then ;) [08:02] ajmitch: Maudite, Je peux le faire aussi. ;) [08:02] ajmitch, everybody in Montreal speaks English, but they might not understand UpSideDownTalk [08:02] aussi? [08:02] hehe [08:02] lol [08:03] jbailey: :) [08:04] plus they really don't speak French in Quebec, they speak Quebecois [08:04] ahh aussi is a different word === ajmitch will still need a translator from kiwi into canadian ;) [08:04] Tahberrrrnak, what do zhyou mean by 'dat, hein? [08:04] and Quebecois is like those african french thing? === Burgundavia might be a salesperson for non-free software soon... [08:05] jsgotangco, depends on location and person [08:05] Hmm. [08:05] what a place =) [08:05] street slang is pretty odd [08:05] I should probably make the html version still display the about-ubuntu logo, shouldn't I? [08:05] it could be a good idea [08:05] jbailey, yeah [08:05] Damn, kills the symlink idea. [08:06] why? [08:06] Because the img src link is realative to the installed location of the html. [08:07] Not the /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html it's expecting. === jsg_ [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:08] symlink the image as well? [08:08] hello jsg_ [08:09] dsl issues? [08:09] yeah [08:09] its raining hard outside [08:09] ah [08:10] usually when it rains the telephone service gets borked === Burgundavia is glad he lives in a country where that doesn't happen [08:10] here we just have rats ;) [08:11] yeah its typhoon season over here [08:11] until november [08:12] Burgundavia, if you live in a 3rd world country, you'll be living like a millionaire [08:13] a pack of smokes here costs .50 cents US [08:13] I have already experienced that [08:13] gas in indonesia doubled to 44cent a litre [08:14] gas in this region (except singapore) is relatively more cheaper compared to the usa [08:26] Morning [08:26] morning Kinnison [08:27] hey corey [08:30] Uploaded now. [08:30] so I've found a good source of information for everyone going to Montreal... ;) http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Canada_%28Nation%29 [08:30] Got, 2:30, time for sleep. [08:30] MadpilotPPC: I'll be posting some stuff on the wiki this week. [08:30] jbailey [08:30] I've got a bunch of info on cheap museum passes and such. [08:30] what was up with that revision? [08:30] I've had some out of town guests recently, so I stole their research. =) [08:30] rob^: Eh? [08:30] Which one? [08:30] 1838 [08:31] - Ubuntu 5.10 Starter Guide [08:31] + Unofficial Ubuntu 5.10 Starter Guide [08:32] That string shouldn't change after DocumentationStringFreeze. [08:32] mdke is going to take it to the TB on Tuesday. [08:32] Or to matt sooner, I guess. [08:32] Either way is fine, but without approval, I can't upload that change. [08:32] err [08:32] its an omf file [08:32] oh ok, its just that its totally wrong [08:32] Which contains localised strings. [08:33] Oh, I agree it's wrong. [08:33] jbailey, the Uncyclopedia is... not the most reliable source of actual information, but it's entertaining. I wasn't actually going to add it to any of the UBZ pages... [08:33] MadpilotPPC: *lol* [08:33] I was tempted to add it, though... ;) [08:34] heh, they have a good page on "new" Venice [08:34] rob^: I just can't randomly break the freeze. It's always appeared that way in every upload. I just need a hand wave from mdz, kamion or sabdfl to say that it's okay. [08:34] rob^: Are you randomly reading the logs, or arae they mailed to some mailing list? [08:34] jbailey, ok I'll wait and see what happens then [08:35] jbailey, mailing list [08:35] ubuntu-doc-commits [08:35] Ah, neat didn't know about it. [08:35] ajmitch: Another way you can stalk me. =) [08:35] heh [08:35] rob^: Or someone could poke sabdfl now in #ubuntu-devel and such. [08:35] I keep a pretty good eye on it [08:35] But it's 02h35 and I need to go to sleep. =) [08:36] does any of those three know about this issue yet? [08:37] I doubt it. [08:37] I think mdke and I spoke about it Friday night or so. [08:37] ok [08:38] well night then :) [08:39] jeezz why do i have to bear the suffering of using centos for this review [08:39] are you reviewing centos? [08:40] no i won an rhce exam pack and centos is basically rhel [08:40] oh [08:40] heh RHCE [08:40] if you're doing it in sydney/melbourne I know one of the main guys :) [08:40] HrdwrBob, don't start, i wont and its free...heh === rob^ looks at his mcse exam pack and thinks he should finish it [08:41] HrdwrBob, probably in brisbane [08:42] jbailey, hey you fixed the faqguide? [08:42] awesome [08:42] mdke: That's the theory. [08:42] flame away if I'm wrong. =) [08:42] what was broken? [08:42] i'll let you know later [08:42] It was just the missing bits like the fdl and such, right? [08:42] rob^, links [08:42] jbailey, rob sent a list of things that are missing to the list [08:43] lemme find it [08:43] mdke, which ones? [08:43] jbailey, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/3264 [08:43] jbailey, are the links to samples/ and the entities working too? [08:43] mdke, hi [08:43] oh cool [08:44] jsgotangco, heya, nice work on the RHCE [08:44] mdke, im gonna be low-key for a while after breezy [08:45] np === Burgundavia worried that his new job might lead to curtailed activities with Ubuntu as well === rob^ is going back onto shift work, so I will probably have even more time [08:46] if i had all the time in the world, i would, but i also have to start sorting things out [08:48] jsgotangco, that's cool. What are you going to be up to? [08:48] Where do I find those things? [08:48] The commons and the FDL are working. [08:49] But I don't see where Credits and License is, etc. [08:49] Found feedback, it works. [08:49] libs? [08:49] jbailey, not sure [08:49] rob^ might know [08:49] jbailey, yeah I had to change a few things to get the two licences going [08:49] or common [08:50] common/C [08:50] the sample/ stuff is in the faqguide/C directory [08:50] although I noticed they arn't working in the latest package (although this might be older then when I made the update) [08:50] rob^: If you could check again with 5.10-5, that would be really appreciated. [08:50] i gtg to work [08:51] catch y'all later [08:51] someone deleted my edubuntu script too, i just noticed 2 days ago (it was probably deleted for quite some time) [08:51] C'ya mdke [08:51] Sleep now, back in a few hours. =) [08:51] as for credits and licence, I have know idea why they arn't working in the package, they work fine with the .xml file in branch [09:03] brb === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dand [n=dand@gw.datagroup.ro] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:37] I guess it isn't a good thing that after climing thru roofs f [11:37] oops [11:37] dam up key [11:38] :) [11:38] what the heck are you doing [11:38] it's that fibreglass eating into your brain [11:38] yeah my eyes are quite sore [11:39] cabling === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:46] hey the finally replaced the gnome foot with the ubuntu logo === segfault [i=carlos@prognus.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:46] yes [11:47] its been about a month since I've logged off and rebooted.. [11:47] bout time :) [11:53] my laptop gets restarted a bit more often, so I noticed it there :) === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsg_ [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kbrooks [n=kbrooks@d235-161-49.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:36] Seems like a wiki page still has those marillat repositories in -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats [01:37] is ubuntu-doc teams territory anything that involves doco? like the wiki? [01:38] think so (not sure). [01:38] hm. ok. === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === HrdwrBob [n=matt@bob.is.teh.admin.at.vicnet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:39] hey guys... what is the URL for the FAQ guide generated from the translations? [03:27] jbailey, around? [03:28] jbailey, i'm writing my proposal for the TB regarding that omf string. You mentioned the other day that there are some translations of it, but in the branch all I can see are copies of the English version. What languages have translations for that string, do you know? [03:31] WaterSevenUb, /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ === highvolt1ge [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:39] mdke: Lemme look [03:39] Hmm, this is faqguide, isn't it... [03:40] y'know, maybe all the translations are new... [03:40] jbailey, all I can see are copies of the english omf file [03:40] If we used the string "Ubuntu FAQ Guide", we could use that string to *get* a translation. [03:41] yeah [03:41] same with the little paragraph underneath it [03:41] Right. [03:41] So we could argue for unifying that, and just using those translations. [03:41] oh no [03:42] what would we do with the paragraph under the "Unofficial ..." bit? [03:42] i can't find a suitable introduction in the faqguide that might be translated [03:42] there used to be one, but it looks like it was removed === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:46] Given that it's not a huge string change, it might just be worth asking mdz directly then. [03:46] Or Kamion might be abl to just approve it. [03:47] hang on [03:47] if we change it as you have suggested, and get the translations, we will be left with a title (translated) and that little intro paragraph (not translated) [03:48] unless we remove that intro paragraph from the translated omf's [03:50] jbailey, follow me? [03:51] Yup [03:54] The biggest trick is that I don't have the authority to approve any of these changes, so we need to ask one of them. [03:54] sure [03:54] But it sounds simple enough to do that we could just ask one of them directly. [03:54] jbailey, i'm just trying to figure out what to ask for [03:55] mdke: I would honestly be inclined to ask for the name changes, and the chance to localise what's possible. [03:55] are we asking to remove the paragraph, or to remove it from the translations? [03:55] The paragraph can probably stay in English for now. [03:55] And next time we know to make a pofile out of that, too. [03:55] that would look odd with a translated title though [03:55] i would tend to go for leaving it all in english [03:56] or taking out the paragraph [03:56] Given that the target document might be translated, someone could ignore the English and get the document at least. [03:56] They'll be used to random bits of Englihs popping up. [03:56] Since the link is in their language, it gives them a hint that using it might be what they want. [03:56] (I they don't speak a word of English) [03:56] the important thing is to make it clear that the doc is translated [03:57] Right. [03:57] Which I think the title will do. === mdke nods [03:58] ok i'll build that into my email [03:59] and send it to kamion and mdz too [04:01] Who are you emailing aside from those two? [04:04] the doc list [04:04] i was just going to email the list and then link to it from the TB agenda [04:08] 'k [04:09] anyhow I'll copy you in too [04:09] need to get my head down at work for a while now [04:09] so see ya later [05:02] I've been looking at the about-ubuntu page as transformed to HTML. [05:02] I'm wondering it it's actually possible to make docbook output pretty. [05:18] quick question: how is kubuntu capitalized? KUbuntu or Kubuntu? I get confused === enrico_ [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:27] Kubuntu [05:27] 'cos KUbuntu looks strange :D [05:27] it looks like a typo :D === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:31] grin I did kubuntu [05:31] :P === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === segfault [i=carlos@prognus.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:02] where can i find the ubuntu irc logs again? [07:04] sorry, found it. === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:37] bk === dand [n=dand@83.103.205.67] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WhispSil [n=WhispSil@bl6-192-37.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:39] anyone can tell me when will the very last translations of FAQ Guide from rosetta be used for Breezy? [10:39] is the deadline over? [10:40] I thought the ubuntu guide was a langpack thing... not a "nonlangpack". [10:43] Sadly, no. [10:43] That'll change for dapper. [10:43] But it's too late to get it in the langpacks for Breezy. [10:46] jbailey, I see, thanks. So there is no chance people will open an exception on ubuntu guide and update translations after 6th October? [10:46] jabiley, I mean, before the 13th. [10:46] No, the NonLangpackTranslations time has passed. =( [10:46] jabiley, damn it... PT team was counting on the 6th of October:) [10:47] it's strange that the FAQ's are considered as nonlangpack [10:47] whispsil, I guess it's more a technical issue than other thing... but still... what a pitty:) [10:48] the problem now is that we will have like 150 strings untranslated randomly.... when there is actual a full translation in Rosetta.... [10:48] that would be certainly very confusing for the final user. [10:49] would=will [10:50] well i dont think it will be that strange for the user, it's rather normal to see things like this [10:50] it's sad because it lowers the quality feeling toward the user [10:51] jbailey, freezes are sometimes flexible, do you think this is not such a case for flexibility? [10:52] I think that we're 3 days from an RC release, and 10 days from final release. [10:52] And that I'm certainly not willing to go argue the point to the very busy release manager or the very busy CTO. =) [10:53] :) [10:53] The nice part is pitti and I know what it will take to make it langpack'd for dapper. [10:53] There will be weekly snapshots. [10:53] So all told, documentation is going to be more present through the release cycle. [10:53] I think that's the best we can generally hope for, and see what we need to change when it come to the end of that cycle. [10:54] one thing that I'm afraid is that the langpack grows such that it has to be removed from the CD.... [10:54] do you think that will be the case? [10:55] and many new users would give up immediately if they can't see things in their own language.... [10:55] if the packages number stay rather stable, it shouldn't happend [10:55] October 6, Ubuntu breezy RC will be released? [10:55] :O [10:55] whispsil, well... perhaps for inclusion of documentation that will not be the case.... but space is very scarse and I think langpacks in AMD64 ISO suffered restrictions or were removed... [10:56] i didn't know [10:56] whispsil, I'm not sure:) === hyperactivecrond [n=chris@ppp-69-217-155-73.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hyperactivecrond [n=chris@ppp-69-217-155-73.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] === hyperactivecrond [n=chris@ppp-69-217-155-73.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:18] what happened to the install guide? [11:18] oops [11:19] it says "now hiring" - I'll write it... [11:26] jbailey, i am not going to give up on the idea of ubuntu-docs language updates :) [11:26] mdke: I'm not asking you to. =) [11:26] course not [11:26] i didn't mean that [11:27] jbailey, you think it is unrealistic/a bad idea? [11:30] mdke, well... in the case of translations made by our team... we know that the translations do not follow the same general properties from string to string since we didn't review them... it would be great to update that in the future. [11:31] mdke, somehow :) [11:32] mdke, we were caught by confusion with deadlines as I said before.... [11:35] mdke: No, it's just something I can't persue right at the moment. [11:35] upload to main are now on-approval only for everything. [11:38] jbailey, sure, i was just interested in your opinion on prospects of success :) i think it will be something to address after the breezy release dust has settled [11:41] pursue [11:51] mdke: I only think that everything's incredibly busy right now, [11:52] mdke: Given that Colin said he doesn't mind, you've got a good shot at it. [11:54] so can i be "hired" ot do the install guide? [11:59] obv for no $