[12:04] <jbailey> It seems like the gnome docbook translator doesn't like legalnotice as a toplevel notice?
[01:03] <rob^> jbailey, yes I noticed that too
[01:04] <jbailey> I'm trying to figure out if it should actually be a toplevel
[01:05] <jbailey> Or if it should be wrapped in an appendix tag.
[01:05] <rob^> if it works then sure, why not?
[01:22] <jbailey> Well, trying for correctness, too. =)
[01:25] <ajmitch__> hi
[01:30] <rob^> I hate how yelp just decides to do its own thing like that
[01:36] <jbailey> Heya Andrew
[04:15] <jsgotangco> rob^: wouter has a valid point on "Add Applications"
[04:40] <rob^> well, I did bring it up ages ago..
[04:43] <rob^> maybe having a string freeze before the final product is released is a bad thing
[05:19] <jbailey> I think the idea is that string freeze is supposed to be after feature freeze to allow for that.
[05:20] <jbailey> What we need is to make sure that all specs  include a documentation component.
[05:25] <rob^> but thats not whats happening
[10:25] <mdke> morning
[10:26] <rob^> hi mdke 
[10:27] <MadpilotPPC> hi all
[10:27] <rob^> my laptop is having a hard time with breezy
[10:28] <rob^> debian is ok though
[10:28] <rob^> I'll bbs once its soughted out
[10:28] <rob^> :)
[10:45] <MadpilotPPC> blast... people duplicating pages that already exist is *such* a waste of effort...
[10:45] <MadpilotPPC> this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SettingUpModems <-- has links to pages about various modems/linmodems
[10:46] <MadpilotPPC> which is good - except that SteveMyers has created new pages and new info for these modems, when there is already at least some information elsewhere in the wiki
[10:46] <mdke> bitchslap em!
[10:46] <MadpilotPPC> about these modems...
[10:46] <mdke> yeah I made a note on his homepage encouraging him to get in touch with us
[10:47] <MadpilotPPC> mdke, heh. I'm sure he means well, but right now he's just making a mess
[10:47] <mdke> i don't think he is subscribed to his homepage...
[10:47] <MadpilotPPC> I wasn't subscribed to my own homepage when I first created it, either... 
[10:48] <MadpilotPPC> I'm going to do a bit of cleanup now, but it's late here
[10:48] <MadpilotPPC> at least bumping stuff back up the RecentChanges list will get other ppl looking at it
[10:49] <MadpilotPPC> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=modem&fullsearch=Text
[10:51] <MadpilotPPC> bleh... this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DialupModemHowto  <-- is a mess too, for different reasons...
[10:52] <mdke> oh well
[10:53] <MadpilotPPC> I'm just going to bump a few things up RecentChanges, and leave it
[10:53] <MadpilotPPC> I don't even use dailup myself...
[11:20] <MadpilotPPC> added a note about the modem mess here --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SettingUpModems <-- we'll see what happens
[03:22] <rob__> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp   <- not again..
[03:25] <rob^> tweak yelp.. oh god
[04:49] <jsgotangco> rob^, ping?
[04:49] <rob^> jsgotangco, pong
[04:50] <jsgotangco> rob^, who made those bof topics?
[04:50] <rob^> which ones?
[04:51] <jsgotangco> DocteamPlansDapper?
[04:51] <rob^> that one was me
[04:52] <rob^> the rest wasn't
[04:52] <jsgotangco> mdz is the one who prioritizes bofs and stuff
[04:52] <jsgotangco> no one will discuss it in montreal
[04:52] <rob^> well its better then having helpfulhelp on there
[04:52] <rob^> we have already been through that one
[04:53] <jsgotangco> helpfulhelp?
[04:53] <jsgotangco> have you ever seen the baz rep on that?
[04:53] <rob^> something has to be discussed, I figured I better put something down thats relevent
[04:54] <rob^> well, can you really picture what would need to happen for some of the things in helpfulhelp to work?
[04:54] <rob^> integrated help for one is impossible
[04:55] <jsgotangco> sorry i can't agree on that
[04:55] <rob^> to have fully intergrated help, one would have to alter the code for each app, right?
[04:55] <jsgotangco> a rolling release within milestones is the answer
[04:56] <rob^> to do it, we would end up with forks of everything
[04:56] <jsgotangco> ehh?
[04:56] <rob^> I don't think the devels are gonna like us pushing work on em like that either
[04:57] <jsgotangco> why not?
[04:57] <jsgotangco> the aim of the rolling release is to push docs as early as possible even if its not complete
[04:57] <rob^> 00:55| rob^ to have fully intergrated help, one would have to alter the code for each app, right?
[04:57] <rob^> rolling release is a seperate issue
[04:58] <jsgotangco> im not getting you in the integrated help
[04:58] <jsgotangco> its just yelp/khelpcenter really
[04:58] <rob^> its listed as embedded help on that page, also see the diagram
[04:58] <jsgotangco> that's a really old issue that borked a lot of things
[04:59] <jsgotangco> we're not talking about infrastructure here
[04:59] <rob^> so whats the point of discussing it again then?
[04:59] <rob^> all of the use cases go against it too
[05:00] <jsgotangco> the purpose of a BOF is to study the feasibility
[05:00] <jsgotangco> not implement
[05:00] <rob^> the problem is that the page is a hacked together version of the old helpfulhelp page by mpt
[05:00] <rob^> when he was pushing the issue of changing licences and stuff
[05:00] <jsgotangco> because its going to be tied up with launchpad that's why
[05:01] <jsgotangco> we're already seeing the beginnings of helpful help in breezy
[05:01] <jsgotangco> the backend is already taking place
[05:02] <rob^> I agree that h.u.c, launchpad and rolling releases are a good thing
[05:02] <rob^> embedded help etc is not
[05:02] <jsgotangco> because?
[05:03] <rob^> I also think its a bit harsh to say that no one cares about books chapters etc
[05:03] <rob^> people do, its just the interface to view them sucks
[05:03] <jsgotangco> rob^, because in the first place, we're writing books/articles not help pages
[05:03] <rob^> so no one could be bothered finding the info they need
[05:03] <jsgotangco> just look at the docbook syntax
[05:04] <jsgotangco> even project mallard is rethinking this book/article thing
[05:04] <rob^> I know what project mallard is
[05:04] <rob^> there isn't much we can do about that until he decides to change yelp or others do it for him
[05:05] <jsgotangco> then again, help != books really
[05:05] <rob^> yes, but help != causing more work for devels and forking software either
[05:06] <rob^> the main reason I have a problem with some of this is because most of the key players (us) won't be there to discuss this
[05:07] <rob^> and I don't want to be lumped with some crap I disagree with
[05:08] <jsgotangco> that's fine and dandy but going against the flow (as i perceive DocteamPlansDapper) won't fix it
[05:08] <rob^> I'm not, I'm just pointing out that we need to also keep focused on reality
[05:09] <rob^> a good chuck of helpfulhelp has already been discussed and caused a lot of problems within the docteam
[05:10] <rob^> what we ended up with was two documents, because although people like to talk the talk most of them couldn't walk the walk when it came to contributing
[05:11] <rob^> I even had people trying to tell me how I should be contributing
[05:11] <rob^> who wern't contributing themself
[05:12] <jsgotangco> well that's open source buddy not just the docteam experience that
[05:13] <jsgotangco> we can't force people to do things when they ended up with no time doing so
[05:13] <rob^> right, but I also don't apoligise for the fact that I stand up to myself
[05:13] <rob^> or for myself rather
[05:13] <rob^> but that didn't stop others from trying
[05:19] <jsgotangco> rob^, just don't jump the gun yet, we don't even have a roadmap for dapper
[05:20] <rob^> I'm not, I only just checked out the BOF page before and saw what I saw
[05:21] <jsgotangco> BOFs are just BOFs nothing happens till someone picks it up and successfully implements it
[05:21] <jsgotangco> (not to mention if its tagged as a priority)
[05:24] <jsgotangco> the nice thing about this is that everything will be in flux so anything's possible
[05:24] <rob^> we will see what happens I guess
[05:27] <jsgotangco> so its actually possible that those existing books will be obsoleted, merged or retained as is
[05:27] <jsgotangco> we'll only know after the roadmap is released
[05:28] <rob^> yeah
[05:28] <jsgotangco> (besides we can do more than just write) =)
[06:09] <jsgotangco> good night