=== n1c0las [n=niklas@nicolas.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=yh728@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:10] anyone know about the "Under no circumstances should this page be edited unless" '''authorized.''' and other changes here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum?action=diff [04:11] it seems a bit... odd? [04:11] SteveMyers has basically rewritten the entire intent of that page, and made UserDocumentation a dumping ground for every half-complete howto [04:15] Madpilot, reverting to the old version [04:16] the edits to UserDocs can stay for now [04:16] OK, thanks. [04:17] now let's see if SteveMyers notices; he doesn't seem to have noticed the edits I did to his Modem pages... [04:19] I dropped a note on his user page === Burgundavia pines for Mediawiki [04:21] with visible Talk pages? [04:22] yes, and notification when your user talk page changed [04:22] there was also talk a while ago about making Edit Comments mandatory. +1 to that idea [04:22] indeeed [04:23] mm [04:23] possibly have a 'trivial edit' button [04:23] if you're fixing spelling or somesuch [04:24] there already is a trivial edit checkbox [04:24] yeah [04:24] which disables the sending of emails to ppl subscribed to that page [04:24] it could likely disable mandatory comments as well [04:26] yeah === nickrud [n=aias@adsl-69-152-236-188.dsl.snantx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiskSpace <-- this is short enough that it really should be rolled into another page, but I'm not quite sure where... somewhere in the Install pages? [07:11] I would read that, as something that should be broken out: the swap, the /, and the archive-copier as a really obscure thing under 'if all else fails' [07:13] except that currently it's not linked to from *anywhere*, which rather defeats the purpose [07:13] heh [07:14] we've got another enthusiastic newbie running all over the wiki making a mess, and firing stuff off at random... that's one of his pages [07:14] the one unique thing on that page is the archive-copier option, that is what should be abstracted out\ [07:15] speaking of wanting to run all over the wiki ... [07:15] except I've tripped while running often enough [07:15] heh [07:16] I'm sure SteveMyers means well, but he really, really needs to coordinate some of his work with what's already in the wiki... [07:17] :) === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Karl@ppp210-102.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:18] I really want to do do something usefull with the wiki, but, it can be hard to see how to coordinate with what's there [07:18] it turns out we now have some dailup modem info appearing on THREE seperate and different wiki pages; have a look here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SettingUpModems [07:19] I look towards dapper, and a 3 or so year stable thing to write about === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:23] heh [07:23] so, who knows all those modems? not me [07:24] I'm actually going to fire off an email to the doc-list later; someone who actually knows modems is going to have to clean that whole area up [07:24] I've used broadband for 5+ years now, and never had to set up a dailup modem on Linux... [07:26] I have, too often, but, I had enough knowledge (luck, if you consider the hardware) to use a basic serial modem [07:27] but, I see your point in general. [07:28] it's not just modems, it's the video card issues I see on ubuntu over and over again, and other hardware issues [07:28] there are lots of winmodems in the world... :( [07:29] I ran up against that again tonight, and fell flat. [07:29] graphics cards? y [07:29] yeah. I've been lucky, my ATI "just worked" with the fglrx drivers [07:30] 3fdx rules ;) [07:30] but, seriously [07:31] actually, I've been incredibly lucky with hardware - *everything* I've got has worked right away, with a minimum of fiddling or none at all [07:31] I've only had a chance to give the faq a quick over view, there's a lot of fleshing out needed [07:32] the FAQ is pretty skeletal... I'm going to wait until I see the released Breezy FAQ before I start playing with that side of it [07:32] the wiki is enough! [07:32] Madpilot, you have had access to useful info, your purchases were guided, I think [07:33] actually, I bought intending to run XP, not Linux [07:33] heh, your karma must be fine :) [07:34] I just bought the best I could budget for, read lots of reviews, and was actually pretty conservative [07:34] a sec, the cat's on the keyboard [07:39] Anyhoo, I do want to help with useful docs over the long haul. [07:40] And, I can be extremely ruthless, when it comes to culling bad writing [07:40] good [07:41] But, I am not so arrogant to think I know how things work. [07:42] yeah, I hear you [07:42] So, I guess I'm about at where the wiki is now, an amorphous mess [07:43] I've only been using Linux at all since May this year, so I'm very, very cautious about what I write & edit [07:43] Well [07:44] I am in the midst of fixing your addendum to CronHowto, actually === Madpilot can't remember what he changed on CronHowto... [07:45] probably just typos & formatting? [07:45] no, you pointed out that anacron is in universe; it's actually a fundamental part of ubuntu-desktop [07:45] in main [07:46] ;P [07:46] I don't think I changed that, I think it's a hangover from Warty when the doc was first written [07:47] I only mention it because I made a fool of myself on #ubuntu, and had to re-educate myself [07:48] and I've been using debian for almost 5 years; I dont' have newness as an honest reason [07:50] and, in case I've not made myself clear: Your work has been useful to me [07:50] glad to hear that [07:50] So. [07:51] I've basically been working on the docs that I've actually used, or building the ones that I wish I'd been able to read [07:51] lol, what other reason is there to write docs [07:52] for volunteer doc maintainers? it seems to be the only good reason! [07:52] you won't get any other perks, trust me, I did this 20 years agoi === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:52] there's always ego ;) [07:52] and, now and then, a beer [07:54] of course, if you doc your work, it may get you a decent job down the line. Not a bad goal. === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-23.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia is actually installing something using Autopackage [09:50] so far, I am not really that impressed [09:50] don't mention autopackage to mdz [09:51] it's like a red flag [09:51] I couldn't find a .deb for SCOURGE and it wouldn't build from sourced [09:52] ajmitch__, aside from the obivious, anything specific that mdz hates? [09:52] not that I recall [09:53] but we're not going to put it in universe anytime soon, afaik :) [09:53] the lack of integration with .deb is kind of scary [09:53] what if we hacked it so that it would install into /opt? [09:54] ok, no I am seriously not impressed [09:56] if it integrated with apt, then I might be more interested [09:56] I'd be scared [09:56] there is a use case [09:57] sure [09:57] binary software distributed by others [09:57] but the most common will be users wanting crack of the day [09:57] and screwing up their ubuntu system [09:57] and then filing bugs in bz/malone about it [09:58] yes [09:58] the other use case is stuff that isn't there yet [09:59] such as scourge [11:51] morning [11:51] hi mdke [11:55] has SteveMyers come in yet? [11:56] not if he uses that nic, not while iv been here, no [11:58] no idea about his nick [11:58] mdke: you've been tracking his changes in the wiki too, huh? [11:58] not really [11:58] i subscribe to UserDocumentation though [11:59] i left a message on his homepage the other day and saw that corey left one yesterday [11:59] he has deleted them both however and is still not commenting his changes :/ [11:59] I've also left message on a couple of the pages he's done [11:59] *messages, rather [12:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SettingUpModems <-- most noticably on here [12:00] are his changes very bad? [12:01] not really bad, mostly he's either duplicating pages that already exist or creating seperate pages for stuff that should be added to existing pages [12:01] and editing is not his strong point [12:02] damn [12:03] I had a quick search of the Ubuntu forums for his name, but came up blank there [12:03] he's a forum user I guess and is just placing howtos on the wiki without checking if they already exist [12:03] and some of the howtos he's dumping are pretty rough still [12:03] yeah [12:03] i'm gonna clean up that postfix one now [12:04] If you can have a go at the lm-sensors one, please do. I've done a bunch of cleanup and additions there, but it's still rough [12:04] nah [12:04] plus he misspelled 'sensors' as 'censors' in the original title... oops [12:05] lol [12:05] damn [12:06] lol Madpilot. ouch. [12:06] on his userpage, he talks about some 'official' team to get the Forum howtos into the wiki - I haven't heard anything about that via the mailing list - just how official is this? [12:06] sort of [12:07] there is no team that I am aware of, but we tried to get an initiative to get the two working better together [12:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum [12:08] jeez that postfix guide sucks balls [12:08] right - except that one of the first and messiest things SteveMyer did was tear that forum-wiki page apart and dump all the draft-copy howtos out into the regular wiki [12:08] Corey reverted it a few hours ago... [12:09] okay... [12:10] what can we do? [12:10] we need to get dialogue going with the forum users [12:11] i might post a message [12:14] erm [12:14] Steve Myers has the following as his forum post signature [12:14] # Bahamut Wiki Publisher For : Ubuntu Forums [12:15] on his wiki userpage he describes himself as "Ubuntu Forum staff" [12:15] what is 'Bahamut', anyway? [12:16] a user [12:16] ah [12:16] he's not forum staff though [12:16] weird [12:16] he's 21 - delusions of grandeur? j/k [12:16] possibly [12:16] he is scary lookin [12:17] heh [12:17] still can't find his name in the Forum - got a URL? === Kamping_Kaiser looks at wiki page [12:17] i'll email him privately [12:17] mdke: don't be biased against those of us who look scary ;) [12:17] nah, just kidding [12:17] lol [12:17] http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=14347 [12:17] I think that the forum search doesn't search usenames... [12:20] ok i'll email him and we'll see what happens === mdke prides himself on his diplomacy === Kamping_Kaiser wonders whta the deal with this steve bloke is anyway... is he not doing stuff to standard? [12:21] get him to join the doc mailing list, so that at least we've got a contact point... [12:22] Kamping_Kaiser: he's mostly been dumping stuff into the main wiki that should still be in the draft pages, so it's really roughly written [12:22] oh, right. :| *goes to read about wiki and avoid making another dumper* [12:22] and some of it doesn't seem current, and there's also a lot of stuff that we're not supposed to encourage, like running as root... [12:24] so all round not good? [12:24] not edited, more than not good [12:24] mmmm. ok. [12:26] we are going to have to document some guidelines for wiki posting [12:26] and thing about access control for UserDocumentation [12:26] if we are serious about the wiki being a documentation resource [12:26] I'm all for making edit comments mandatory, as a first step [12:27] you'll have to pay someone to hack the code [12:27] or convince someone else to pay [12:27] hmm [12:28] there are a few quite leet moin/python hackers around who we could approach I guess [12:28] python is simple [12:28] hacking moin probably not quite so simple, but manageable [12:28] ;) [12:29] we've talked about doing mandatory comments on the mailing list, after the last round of 'overenthusiastic new person goes berserk' a few months ago... [12:29] yes [12:29] Madpilot, but the point is that there is no option to do that, unless you rewrite some of the wiki software [12:29] it's all very well being agreed on it, but someone needs to do it [12:30] yeah... but at least we can keep the idea in circulation... ;) [12:30] sure [12:31] ok i'm starting this page, please leave thoughts and ideas [12:31] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DraftWikiRules [12:32] looks pretty complete already... [12:32] i copied them out of my email to Steve [12:32] heh [12:35] mdke: so catagory cleanup is all the unfinished pages? not just stuff that people find on the wiki and think needs work? [12:40] Kamping_Kaiser: Cleanup seems to be both; unfinished = needs work, anyway... [12:40] ok. thanks [12:50] good night/morning/whatever, all. need sleep... [12:50] we could turn that page into a general guide to the wiki [12:50] rather than "rules" [12:51] your DraftWikiRules one? yes... [12:51] later Madpilot. see you then then :) === ajmitch__ has a bad habit of not writing wiki comments since most of his changes are to MOTU status pages [12:52] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryDocteam <- is that this docteam? thats a long list [12:53] ajmitch__, the guidelines would be mainly for docs as i see it [12:55] right === zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:59] hi zyga [01:00] :) [01:00] couple of points to make straight away [01:00] the wiki aims to be new user friendly [01:00] so where it isn't, we need to improve that [01:00] and we'd be glad of your help === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-122-217.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:01] wiki is wrong at the start [01:01] hello Yagisan [01:01] hello zyga [01:01] wiki is BIG [01:01] wrongt? [01:01] it is overwhelming IMHO [01:01] zyga, have you looked at UserDocumentation? [01:02] it is structured in a way to make it accessible [01:02] mdke: no, I didn't even know it exists - neither will random new users probably - checking [01:02] the wiki is searchable, and so is that page [01:02] zyga, it is the first and most prominent link on the front page of the wiki [01:02] zyga: The wiki just needs to be promoted better [01:03] we can't do much better than that [01:03] mdke: mmm [01:03] a massive bold link at the top of the front page of the wiki... [01:03] zyga: what are the main user issues you see ? [01:03] mdke: it looks better than the last time I've checked [01:03] zyga, ok. we'd be glad of your help in improving it, pls join the docteam mailing list if you are interested [01:03] the second point I wanted to make [01:04] have you seen the ("official") Ubuntu starter guide? [01:04] zyga: I poped my 70 year old parents-in-law in front of Ubuntu boxes (in a foreign language) and they didn't have trouble ? [01:04] that page should be a homepage :) [01:04] Yagisan: I poped mine mom and dad and they did have some issues [01:04] Yagisan: quite minor though [01:05] but the 1) didn't want to play movies initially (they did want that later) [01:05] the starter guide can be accessed in breezy by clicking System -> Help, then clicking on the starter guide [01:05] 2) didn't want to interface with their inexisting windows boxes [01:05] you will find answers to common tasks there [01:05] zyga: then the problem isn't actually New Users but rather "medium-advanced" Windows users [01:05] Yagisan: true [01:05] Yagisan: yet they might be a massive amount of actuall converts [01:06] that lack the interest to distinguish that Ubuntu isn't Windows [01:06] IMHO we either get totally new users or medium advanced that are not afraid to change their os [01:06] anyhow [01:07] regardless of that [01:07] please feel free to make any suggestions about improving docs on our mailing list [01:07] mdke: I'll read the archives first [01:07] Is there a table of Ubuntu/Windows equivalents anyware ? [01:07] Yagisan: I've seen something like that some time ago [01:08] that might be more of what you are after zyga [01:08] Yagisan: I cannot remember the name though [01:08] Yagisan: lotsof them, just i cant find any up to date ones [01:08] Yagisan: I'm not after anything :) but answering a simple question in #ubuntu shows common issues [01:08] zyga: eg if you burned cd's using nero, heres how to do it in k3b [01:08] zyga, try the starter guide, you should find it has most of those answers [01:09] gtg now [01:09] later mdke [01:09] mdke: see you === zyga knows his way around distros, thanks guys :) === zyga just wanted to know how to help people in #ubuntu better [01:10] we can't force them to read docs [01:10] but we can help to make things as obvious as possible [01:10] mdke: next time I'll point users to that page, thanks [01:10] cool [01:10] for breezy, they will have that guide too [01:11] mdke: are you talking about http://ubuntuguide.org/ ? [01:11] no [01:11] good [01:11] we took that and hacked it up [01:11] and made this [01:11] but that is top of googles hits [01:11] well, we'll publish ours and people can choose [01:11] mdke: this? :) [01:11] mdke: is there any fixed uguide then/ [01:11] this = our ("official") guide [01:12] guide.ubuntu.com would be lovely [01:12] mdke: where can I see this ? [01:12] dude [01:12] system -> Help -> starter guide [01:12] if you have Breezy [01:12] heh === zyga got used to avoid clicking on any help button after his years of experience with 'usefull docs' [01:12] thanks mdke === Yagisan realises he doesn't actually have it installed =-O [01:13] lol [01:15] how about a system->help submenu [01:15] :) [01:15] so ahh - what package should I install to get this guide :-[ [01:16] Yagisan: ubuntu-docs [01:16] arhhh === zyga really really hopes that breezy will get after-release i18n upgrades [01:17] a quote from the guide [01:17] Co znaczy sowo Ubuntu? [01:17] Ubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available with both community and professional support. To find out more, visit http://www.ubuntu.com [01:17] 'what does ubuntu mean' [01:17] 'yada yada yada, english stuff' [01:17] i hope so too [01:17] helpfull ;-) [01:17] go translate! [01:17] mdke: I do :) [01:18] hmm [01:18] what language? [01:18] AFAIR ubuntu-docs was translated already, strange [01:18] mdke: pl [01:18] mdke: launchpad.net/people/zkrynicki/translations [01:18] mdke: launchpad.net/people/zkrynicki/+translations [01:18] that is [01:18] polish is about 10% done [01:19] https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/faqguide [01:19] ah, different package then === zyga thinks that .desktop files suck l10n wise ;/ [01:21] The following admonitions will be found throughout the book: [01:21] what does 'admonitions' mean?? [01:21] from, faqguide.xml:180(emphasis) [01:21] 'admonish' usualy means to 'tell off' [01:21] does ubuntu-docs require yelp to show up ? === Kamping_Kaiser is still trying to his head around svn, docbook and other doc-team things [01:22] Kamping_Kaiser: so basically things to be wary about [01:24] Yagisan: yes, i think it does [01:26] Kamping_Kaiser: heh - I removed that and the 64 bit firefox from my system - that explains why I can't see it even after putting on ubuntu-docs [01:26] lol. [01:27] iirc yelp is used to display the docs. t [01:27] -t === Kamping_Kaiser shakes hand out - its sore from clicking the down arrown in FF so much reading the wiki ;D [01:34] best check dictionary.com or something for admonitions, i don't think it means that [01:35] ah yeah it does [01:35] warnings [01:36] mdke: that word should be removed from the docs IMHO [01:50] how much email goes through the ubuntu-doc-commit list? im guesing not much (judging by hte files updated by svn), but is it anything like breezy-changes ? [02:28] no [02:28] zyga, yes I agree, please file a bug [02:28] it is not consistent with the docteam styleguide [02:28] mdke: okay === mdke_ [n=matt@81-178-162-134.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:53] mdke: bugzilla or malone? === zyga never really knows where [02:54] bugzilla [02:54] under documentation === jsgotangco [n=jsg@203.172.2.42] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:16] mdke, nice one on draftwikiguide maybe when its done we can incorporate it on the styleguide and eventually make it a docmanual === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-122-217.tpgi.com.au] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [03:33] jsgotangco, nice idea [03:34] i think we should make it a general help page on the wiki [03:34] add some things about markup and so on [03:34] yeah i was thinking to add that on the current styleguide [03:34] the gdp has a bigger manual like that [03:34] the styleguide is just a chapter of sorts [03:35] the thing is [03:35] the styleguide has kinda an overreaching scope [03:35] it applies to all our docs [03:35] you suggest to limit the scope? [03:35] whereas the wiki guide would just be for the wiki and wouldn't apply to (eg) books [03:35] true [03:36] no i don't suggest limiting the scope, just to keep em separate [03:36] and reference the styleguide in the wiki page [03:36] mmm [03:36] have you seen this [03:36] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamPlansDapper [03:37] yes [03:37] here is my opinion [03:37] 'tis too early [03:37] what in god's name is the point of a BOF at UBZ for the docteam, when there is gonna be one person there? [03:38] its not even a BOF rob just wrote that stuff [03:39] ah ok [03:39] well it is something we can talk about at a meeting [03:39] yeah [03:39] we will need to start sorting ourselves out soon [03:39] yes [03:41] hey ho [03:41] we'll be ok [03:41] oh of course =) [03:41] we've been through this before hehe [03:41] sure [03:42] i'll just finish the release notes in a few days [03:42] cool [03:44] i'll probably remove known issues as fabbione commented on removing the only one written at the moment [03:45] okay === mpt [n=mpt@201-1-129-170.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:20] hi mpt [04:20] hi jsgotangco [04:45] mdke, you still around? === n1c0las [n=niklas@nicolas.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:56] n1c0las, hi [04:58] hi [04:58] How is it going here [04:58] ahh not so much its a weeekend [04:59] hmm, I would expect to see more traffic then :) [05:00] not on a sunday really [05:00] how was the DocTeam meeting last friday? [05:01] oh i came in late and no one came [05:01] sorry to hear that [05:01] I also saw there was no agenda [05:02] although the discussion on the list is an interesting one, re: docs management post freeze [05:02] its my fault i didnt update the agenda its my responsibility [05:02] but we'll manage those things a few days after release =) [05:03] I know that some members of the dutch team will do a huge translation effort in about a month on a weekend [05:03] mmm that's nice [05:03] for now I am familiaring myself with Breezy [05:04] the translations are still going in [05:04] hi n1c0las [05:04] I dist-upgraded my laptop yesterday [05:04] and am now preparing a presentation I need to give in two weeks [05:04] Hi Kamping_Kaiser [05:05] n1c0las, neat [05:05] :) [05:05] Seveas and I spend some time together today to talk a bit about it. [05:05] He lives about an hour drive fromme. [05:05] wow [05:06] He send me some presentation examples from himself and others [05:06] Yeaj, it is fun to chat with someone and find out he lives close by :) [05:06] have you checked out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations [05:07] Yep. I got some neat examples from there [05:08] I also will use the new FAQ from Mark to explain to people why Ubuntu is and will always be free [05:08] Of course we dutch like stuff free :) [05:09]