[03:19] <dilinger> fabbione: ping
[07:19] <fabbione> dilinger: pong?
[07:21] <fabbione> let me guess
[07:21] <fabbione> sunfire is down
[02:59] <zul> morning
[03:00] <fabbione> hey zul
[03:12] <chmj> any know problems with hci_usb on powerpc ?
[03:31] <zul> dont know...i dont use powerpc :)
[03:31] <zul> its yucky ;)
[03:36] <chmj> seem to be broken since -9.21 
[03:36] <chmj> or something 
[03:38] <fabbione> nope
[03:38] <fabbione> no changes to USB in ages
[04:04] <dilinger> ugh
[04:05] <dilinger> yea, looks like the sunfire crashed
[04:07] <fabbione> dilinger: yes.. i saw that :)
[04:07] <fabbione> can you restart it before you vanish?
[04:07] <dilinger> yep
[04:07] <fabbione> i just need to be sure that cron doesn't run at 20/50 before i can login again
[04:08] <fabbione> otehrwise it will restart the buildd in a mess
[04:12] <fabbione> no way to look at console?
[04:13] <dilinger> ah, it's pingable
[04:13] <dilinger> there is, but it means plugging stuff in.  i wanted to avoid it if possible :)
[04:13] <dilinger> alright, it's back up
[04:17] <fabbione> same ip?
[04:18] <dilinger> yea
[04:18] <dilinger> .130
[04:18] <fabbione> yeah
[04:18] <fabbione> i am in
[04:18] <fabbione> right in time to stop cron :)
[04:18] <fabbione> thanks dude
[04:23] <lamont> hppa 89.53% 5582 of 6235
[04:23] <lamont> sparc 89.01% 5589 of 6279
[04:23] <lamont> sparc's almost caught up.  dammit
[04:23] <lamont> fabbione: of course, it helps that you can build kde
[04:23] <fabbione> lamont: heheh
[04:24] <lamont> on hppa, of course.
[04:26] <fabbione> dilinger: later
[04:26] <fabbione> lamont: well it's not that good as it looks like.. sparc install CD doesn't work thanks to apt-get being segfaulorama on file:// url
[04:27] <fabbione> and other annoying problems
[04:27] <fabbione> X is rarely autoconfigured
[04:28] <lamont> hppa X has not autoconfigured yet, in my experience
[04:28] <lamont> and network doesn't seem to do hotplug, etc.
[04:29] <fabbione> lamont: yeah we have a lot of glitches.. we will get them right for dapper.. specially now that David Miller is my side :P
[04:30] <lamont> heh
[04:48] <makx> x autoconf is nice.
[05:23] <joh> Hmm, what does a "kernel access of bad area, sig: 11 [#1] " OOPS indicate? I get this with the madwifi modules in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.12-9-powerpc 2.6.12.4-8 and my wifi card :\
[05:23] <joh> A segfault from the kernel module?
[05:32] <fabbione> joh: yes it's an OOPS
[05:35] <joh> fabbione: how can I debug this further? you see, a friend of mine has tried my card on the same type of computer with the same version of linux-restricted-modules, where he doesn't experience any problems like that.
[05:36] <fabbione> joh: there can several different reasons why it dies and there is no way to debug it without the code
[05:37] <joh> fabbione: well, there can't be any problems with the madwifi modules, as the same ones work on a different computer...
[05:37] <joh> fabbione: which other reasons could it be?
[05:38] <joh> fabbione: I just the problem is not in the hardware :\
[05:38] <fabbione> joh: that's whay you assume :) it can be everything.. also.. the hw might look the same and it's not.. like a different revision in a component or stuff like that
[05:38] <fabbione> that might trigger the module to do something different and therefor crash on one and work on the other
[05:38] <fabbione> again.. no code.. no way to know
[05:39] <joh> fabbione: well, that would be strange as we bought the two computers at the same time and they came from the same shipment from apple :P
[05:39] <joh> fabbione: what's strange is that it worked perfectly before
[05:40] <joh> fabbione: I don't remember which version of linux-restricted-modules it worked on though...
[05:40] <fabbione> joh: same shippement means nothing.. you have no prove they are the same
[05:40] <joh> fabbione: true
[05:40] <fabbione> there is nothing you can do
[05:40] <fabbione> there is no code
[05:40] <joh> unless I start debugging madwifi
[05:40] <fabbione> if it doesn't work you can only buy a wifi cards for which there is support in the real kernel
[05:41] <fabbione> joh: you don't have the code for madwifi :) the binary blob can/might/is the culprit
[05:41] <fabbione> if the problem is there you are doomed
[05:41] <joh> fabbione: oh :\ right
[05:42] <fabbione> and the problem might be everywhere really..
[05:42] <joh> fabbione: the problem might not be there though... I look at the stack trace and trace the error in the part of the code in madwifi which is opensouce...
[05:42] <fabbione> you load the binary blob that fucks up a kernel pointer
[05:42] <fabbione> on one machine is it is not used (no crash)
[05:42] <fabbione> on the other it is (boom)
[05:43] <joh> define 'everywhere'...
[05:43] <fabbione> perhaps you see something else oopsing
[05:43] <fabbione> once you load a binary blob of anykind
[05:43] <fabbione> the kernel OOPS can't be trusted anymore
[05:43] <joh> Yeah
[05:44] <fabbione> so you might see an OOPs in madwifi
[05:44] <joh> But there were a stack trace with debugging symbols in the kernel logs. Maybe it's possible to debug it from there?
[05:44] <fabbione> when perhaps is foobar-usb that's crashing
[05:44] <joh> (the OOPS occured when doing iwlist scan)
[05:44] <fabbione> joh: that OOPS information are not reliable
[05:44] <fabbione> that's what i am telling you
[05:45] <joh> fabbione: it's not reliable because it might come from the binary blob?
[05:45] <fabbione> it is not reliable because you have no idea what the binary blob is doing
[05:45] <fabbione> it might as well mangle kernel pointers
[05:45] <fabbione> and since you don't know that
[05:45] <fabbione> there is a chain reaction of events of which you have no control
[05:46] <joh> but isn't madwifi divided into two parts, one proprietary binary blob and one opensource?
[05:46] <fabbione> yes and?
[05:47] <joh> if the error occurs in the opensource part before it actually communicates with the binary blob...
[05:47] <fabbione> you are not listening to what i say
[05:47] <joh> maybe I've misunderstood..?
[05:47] <fabbione> once you just load a module
[05:47] <fabbione> that contains a binary blob
[05:48] <fabbione> you have lost
[05:48] <fabbione> the OOPS become unreliable
[05:48] <fabbione> just loading it, make the kernel unhappy
[05:48] <joh> ok, I see
[05:48] <joh> but how do you explain the fact that it worked before? change in the module?
[05:48] <fabbione> when you load a module there are already a set of functions called
[05:49] <fabbione> like initmodules and similae
[05:49] <fabbione> similar
[05:49] <joh> yeah
[05:49] <fabbione> perhaps change in the module.. could be due to a change in the binary blob or in the general code..
[05:49] <fabbione> from my point of view it's the same
[05:49] <joh> ok
[05:50] <fabbione> at the end you still get one kernel module for which you don't have full source
[05:50] <fabbione> they might as well have broken their internal ABI by mistake
[05:50] <joh> sure, I just want to get it working at this point :P
[05:50] <fabbione> buy better hw :)
[05:51] <joh> what are the chances that there actually is an error in the computer hardware?
[05:51] <fabbione> no idea..
[05:52] <fabbione> it's not necessarely an error
[05:52] <fabbione> for example.. you get laptop A and B
[05:52] <fabbione> they come from the same manufacturer
[05:53] <fabbione> but perhaps one has a different resistor to cope with pcmcia version foo
[05:53] <fabbione> and the other has a different one because foo was broken
[05:53] <fabbione> you card works on A but on B
[05:53] <fabbione> what is at fault?
[05:55] <joh> Sure, so a change in the ABI could result that it won't work on B but still on A.
[05:56] <fabbione> perhaps
[05:56] <fabbione> that's a possibility
[05:57] <joh> An oops is an error IMHO though, either caused by incompatibility between driver and hardware or the ABI itself.
[05:59] <joh> Are there any package archives of the restricted repository?
[06:01] <fabbione> no
[06:01] <fabbione> there was morgue.ubuntu.com but it's temporary down
[06:02] <joh> ok
[06:03] <joh> temporary down as in packages are not archived, or temporary down as in server?
[06:03] <joh> *server down
[06:05] <joh> oh, I see what you mean :p
[06:12] <joh> fabbione: one question... if some PCI hardware is unrecognized by the kernel (i.e. no modules to handle it), a "PCI: device <ID> has unknown header type X, ignoring." message will be printed, right?
[06:13] <fabbione> hmmm i am not 100% sure about it.. i tend to buy hw that actually works
[06:13] <fabbione> grep for that string inside the source and see what code prints it
[06:13] <joh> fabbione: my card worked before :P I just downgraded the drivers to -7 but it doesn't seem to recognize the card now :\
[06:14] <dilinger> i should add an openafs BOF
[06:14] <dilinger> to the ubz wiki
[06:15] <fabbione> dilinger: are you going to be there?
[06:15] <fabbione> if so i am up for it
[06:15] <fabbione> i like this kind of challenges :)
[06:16] <fabbione> but you will also need to lead it
[06:16] <fabbione> not that many have afs experience
[06:16] <dilinger> that's find
[06:16] <dilinger> fine
[06:16] <dilinger> at the very least, openafs clients would be useful for lots of schools
[06:16] <dilinger> i haven't really tried touching our afs fileservers yet
[06:17] <fabbione> isn't afs supposed to distribute everything in such a way that there is no real central server?
[06:17] <fabbione> i wonder if we can write a torrentfs to achieve that..
[06:17] <dilinger> well, there are fileservers for each cell
[06:17] <fabbione> so that everybody has everything :)
[06:17] <joh> openafs is neat :)
[06:17] <dilinger> for example, our homedirectories are spread out across 3 machines
[06:17] <fabbione> dilinger: #define cell ?
[06:18] <dilinger> oh, cell is just an organizational unit
[06:18] <dilinger> afs has a global namespace
[06:18] <dilinger>  /afs/<cell>/<directories>
[06:18] <fabbione> sounds ldpaish
[06:18] <dilinger> where <cell> for us is 2702.athenacr.com
[06:18] <fabbione> ldapish
[06:18] <dilinger> and another cell might be foo.stanford.edu
[06:18] <dilinger> and so on
[06:19] <fabbione> ok
[06:19] <fabbione> sort of workgroups..
[06:20] <dilinger> yea
[06:21] <fabbione> so basically you have N servers syncing automatically data for /afs/<cell>/
[06:21] <fabbione> and clients connect to servers indipendently..
[06:22] <fabbione> if i get this right
[06:22] <dilinger> there's also client caching involved
[06:22] <fabbione> yes i recall that
[06:23] <fabbione> i still have all the AFS docs printed on paper
[06:23] <fabbione> never had the time to read them
[06:23] <dilinger> we typically set aside at least 100gb of cache for clients
[10:17] <mkrufky> jbailey: i know this isnt your thing, but in case you are interested:
[10:17] <mkrufky> i removed the dependency of video-buf-dvb from v4l-kernel cvs
[10:17] <mkrufky> and it should compile fine now on ubuntu
[10:17] <mkrufky> kernel 2.6.10
[10:17] <jbailey> mkrufky: Nice!
[10:18] <jbailey> mkrufky: Is that a package in Ubuntu now?
[10:18] <mkrufky> no
[10:18] <mkrufky> it is still kernel modules ... i think you dont allow packages for those
[10:19] <mkrufky> if you like, i can provide packages to ubuntu ... but it would be silly.... much easier to install from cvs IMHO
[10:29] <jbailey> Yeah,I guess.
[10:29] <jbailey> We should probably find some way to make that possible at some point.
[10:30] <jbailey> mkrufky: Might be worth suggesting as a spec - a way of forcing a build-time dependancy on another package that causes it to get rebuilt when the other package changes.
[10:30] <jbailey> Or something like that.
[10:34] <mkrufky> hmmmm... gentoo has that in place
[10:34] <mkrufky> because packages are build from source
[10:34] <jbailey> Well, packages are built from source in Ubuntu too.
[10:34] <jbailey> It's just done on the server rather than on the client.
[10:34] <mkrufky> ya, thats the difference
[10:35] <mkrufky> truth is, i CAN release source to you that will build on any kernel
[10:35] <mkrufky> we maintain backwards compatability with older kernels
[10:35] <mkrufky> and i just fixed the biggest backwards-compat bug (the video-buf-dvb dependency)
[10:36] <mkrufky> so, i think i just have to learn about how baz works.... maybe it will all just fall into place?
[10:48] <jbailey> Well, probably not for breezy. =)
[10:48] <jbailey> Because it would be lovely if it did for Dapper.
[10:49] <jbailey> Esp. since it will be supported for 5 years.
[10:49] <jbailey> It would be nice if folks who need it for a little while can hope to keep it up to date
[10:54] <mkrufky> 5 years!?!
[11:02] <jbailey> yup
[11:02] <jbailey> 3 years on the desktop, 5 years for servers.
[11:10] <mkrufky> hmm, well, with the rate they're making these video capture cards and digital tv cards, 5 years is too long to go without v4l/dvb updates
[11:10] <mkrufky> lol... 1 month is too long sometimes
[11:10] <mkrufky> this is the reason why we maintain backwards-compat in v4l-cvs
[11:14] <jbailey> Well, I do't imagint most servers will have dvb needs. =)
[11:15] <mkrufky> you're totally forgetting all about broadcast servers
[11:16] <jbailey> =)
[11:16] <jbailey> To forget about them assumes I knew about them in the first place.
[11:19] <mkrufky> how else do you think they get digital tv into your living room?
[11:20] <mkrufky> lol
[11:20] <jbailey> the only digital TV I've been exposed to was something called "DirecTv"
[11:20] <jbailey> I think it might still be around.
[11:20] <mkrufky> what country do u live?
[11:20] <mkrufky> it is still around, yes
[11:20] <jbailey> Canada.
[11:20] <jbailey> Ah, cool.  I did the wide area network integration documents for them. =)
[11:21] <jbailey> And the last time I saw anything relating to them was in 1993. =)
[11:21] <mkrufky> ah nice
[11:21] <mkrufky> they're still marketing in the states
[11:21] <jbailey> Cool.
[11:21] <mkrufky> but i am anti-satellite
[11:21] <mkrufky> lol
[11:21] <mkrufky> i live in NYC
[11:21] <mkrufky> so i use cable
[11:21] <jbailey> I lived in NYC for a year when I was working there. =)
[11:21] <mkrufky> satellite is better where cable is not available, IMHO
[11:21] <mkrufky> where in nyc?
[11:22] <mkrufky> i live in brooklyn, grew up in queens
[11:22] <jbailey> For 9 months, midtown.  52 and Broadway.
[11:22] <mkrufky> (work in new jersey)
[11:22] <jbailey> For a couple month, the Bronx, near Fordham station.
[11:22] <mkrufky> ah nice... 
[11:22] <mkrufky> i dont know bronx very well
[11:22] <jbailey> It was a learning experience.
[11:22] <jbailey> I spent most of my time staying at other people's places.  Much safer. =)
[11:22] <mkrufky> haha how is that?!?
[11:23] <jbailey> Well, in the end we moved because there was a shooting outside of our appt.
[11:23] <mkrufky> omg
[11:23] <mkrufky> i lived in nyc all my life and still never was that close to a shooting
[11:23] <jbailey> High crime, and it's a bit weird to be the only white person in the neighbourhood.
[11:23] <mkrufky> hmm... i guess thats a quirk about bronx
[11:23] <jbailey> After the first few days it was alright, but I learned alot about multi-cultural relations there.
[11:24] <mkrufky> maybe thats why i dont know it so well :-P
[11:24] <jbailey> We don't have anything quite like that here.
[11:24] <mkrufky> ya i know what u mean
[11:24] <jbailey> All told, though, my experience in NYC was positive.
[11:24] <jbailey> I still miss it sometimes.
[11:24] <mkrufky> ya, nyc is an experience
[11:25] <mkrufky> ive been to canada twice
[11:26] <mkrufky> only toronto
[11:26] <jbailey> Toronto is really the asshole of Canada.
[11:26] <jbailey> Are you coming up for UBZ?
[11:26] <mkrufky> UBZ... i know i SHOULD know what that is
[11:26] <jbailey> "Ubuntu Below Zero"
[11:26] <mkrufky> ... ?
[11:26] <mkrufky> hmm
[11:26] <jbailey> It's the Canonical conference here in Montral.
[11:26] <mkrufky> interesting
[11:26] <mkrufky> when?
[11:26] <jbailey> We hold two conferences a year.  The one in the Spring was in Sydney
[11:27] <jbailey> No idea where next spring will be.
[11:27] <mkrufky> i see
[11:27] <jbailey> October 30th to Nov 13th, although most people only come for part of it.
[11:27] <mkrufky> well, maybe would be fun to go
[11:27] <jbailey> The big community day is the 30th.
[11:27] <jbailey> The first week is spent figuring out what we want to do for the next Ubuntu release.
[11:27] <mkrufky> oh, thats in 2 weeks
[11:27] <jbailey> The second week is spent doing Launchpad stuff.
[11:27] <mkrufky> i do have a vacation time left for this 2005 year ... hmmmm........
[11:27] <jbailey> Yes, very soon. =)
[11:28] <mkrufky> is there a site i can read about it?
[11:28] <jbailey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero
[11:28] <mkrufky> does it cost money?
[11:29] <mkrufky> page loading
[11:29] <mkrufky> fyi: i have some insider v4l news... i wanna spill the beans
[11:29] <mkrufky> ivtv project is merging into v4l ....
[11:29] <jbailey> I don't think the conference itself costs money.  You have to cover your lodging and stuff.  There were sponsorships available, but I think those were all decided a while ago.
[11:29] <mkrufky> so, im sure users complain about ivtv conflicts with kernel... worried no more
[11:29] <mkrufky> s/worried/worries
[11:30] <mkrufky> eh, i can afford lodging
[11:30] <mkrufky> damn page wont load
[11:30] <jbailey> I'm lucky.  I'm neither a kernel developer. nor do I own a television. =)
[11:30] <mkrufky> hah really?
[11:30] <jbailey> Try using http instead of https?
[11:30] <mkrufky> k
[11:30] <jbailey> I haven't lived in a place with a TV in like 8 years.
[11:30] <jbailey> And then it was only fgor a year, and probably another 8 before that. =)
[11:31] <mkrufky> to be honest, you're probably better off
[11:31] <jbailey> Oh, I'm sure I am. =)
[11:31] <jbailey> I rent DVDs of TV shows.
[11:31] <jbailey> No commercials.
[11:31] <mkrufky> heh ... less mush in the brain than most
[11:31] <mkrufky> ooooooh... i take it all back
[11:31] <jbailey> Paying to have someone advertise to me seems to be the height of sillyness. =)
[11:31] <mkrufky> yes... but what about canadian news?
[11:32] <jbailey> http://www.cbc.ca/
[11:32] <mkrufky> i hear it's more objective than usa
[11:32] <mkrufky> true, web
[11:32] <jbailey> I use the RSS feeds to see the top stories.
[11:32] <mkrufky> aha... i gotcha!  u say u dont own a tv, yet u rent dvds?
[11:32] <jbailey> There are also the free daily newspapers.
[11:32] <mkrufky> ...watching dvds on pc?
[11:32] <jbailey> Sure.  decss isn't illegal here. =)
[11:33] <jbailey> Congrats on the project merger.  If Conexant's video ochips are as annoying as their other chips, this should save you a bunch of work. =)
[11:34] <mkrufky> yes
[11:34] <mkrufky> the PITA is that ivtv is NOT kernel subsystem, and v4l is
[11:34] <mkrufky> so v4l is official drivers
[11:34] <mkrufky> and ivtv are directly incompatable
[11:34] <jbailey> Ah, so still some work to do.
[11:34] <mkrufky> u must remove v4l to get ivtv to work
[11:34] <mkrufky> well, that WAS the problem
[11:35] <jbailey> Any way to get it fast enough in userspace and just push it all out?
[11:35] <mkrufky> well, i think we'll have all the ivtv stuff ready for 2.6.17
[11:35] <mkrufky> this cannot be userspace - its all kernel modules
[11:35] <mkrufky> (unless i am misunderstanding something)
[11:35] <mkrufky> btw, 2.6.14 comes out probably this week
[11:36] <jbailey> you can always allocate iospace and pci bus memory to userspace.
[11:36] <jbailey> (with a bounce buffer on really broken architectures, but it's still possible)
[11:36] <jbailey> I don't know if Linux has a way of doing IRQ notifications.
[11:36] <mkrufky> ya this is true, but it is not what we are trying to do
[11:36] <mkrufky> however
[11:37] <mkrufky> we are planning to change the driver model such that chip support will be in kernel
[11:37] <mkrufky> but
[11:37] <mkrufky> card support will be configured form userspace
[11:37] <jbailey> Right, but it might solve some problems if your in-kernel stuff was just enough glue to let the chip support sit in userspace.
[11:37] <mkrufky> hmmm 
[11:37] <jbailey> Someone at OLS 2 years ago managed to put the IDE driver in userspace, so what you need is likely there.
[11:37] <mkrufky> sounds like a lot of work
[11:38] <jbailey> No idea.
[11:38] <jbailey> Most of my kernel knowledge comes from hacking the Hurd. =)
[11:38] <jbailey> And paying attention at OLS. =)
[11:38] <mkrufky> hurd, now that i never played with
[11:39] <jbailey> It's a great way of learning, because there's still so much to look at that's unfinished.
[11:40] <mkrufky> hmm
[11:40] <mkrufky> is hurd used anywhere in production 
[11:41] <jbailey> Unlikely.
[11:42] <mkrufky> maybe one day i will mess with it
[11:42] <mkrufky> for now, linux is too much fun
[11:42] <mkrufky> lol