[12:05] <mwright1night> Hello, can someone please seed edubuntu 5.10
[12:05] <mwright1night> The torrent has no seeds
[12:05] <mwright1night> and direct download is 4.5k/s
[12:06] <mwright1night> and a very inefficient way of distributing
[12:19] <Keybuk> jbailey: ping?
[12:22] <mwright1night> could someone please seed edubuntu
[12:40] <Kinnison> ciao all
[12:51] <Kamion> Riddell: yes, they're on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/releases/breezy/release/; I'll sort out a link from releases.u.c tomorrow morning, but not now
[12:51] <Kamion> mdz: great, publishing
[12:55] <jbailey> Keybuk: pong
[12:56] <Keybuk> jbailey: so, I was thinking about "assemble"
[12:56] <Keybuk> and I can't decide where to put the output
[12:56] <Keybuk> wondered if you had thoughts
[12:56] <jbailey> hct? md? something I've missed in udev?
[12:56] <Kamion> mdz: done, I'm off to bed now
[12:57] <mdz> Kamion: thanks, night
[12:59] <ploum> proficiaat allemal :-)
[01:04] <moyogo> hey... many non-techy people get confused with the PC-Edition and 64bit PC-Edition downloads, 
[01:10] <Keybuk> jbailey: hct
[01:12] <Keybuk> jbailey: have been toying with just "..", so when in (e.g.) projects/pmount you'd get projects/pmount-0.9.4 and projects/pmount_0.9.4.tar.gz when you assemble
[01:13] <Keybuk> but then I thought that's kinda untidy, and I hate the way dpkg does that -- as it makes cleaning up my work/ubuntu directory hard
[01:13] <Keybuk> but I don't think "." is right either, because ./pmount-0.9.4 is the bzr branch for the diff.gz
[01:13] <Keybuk> and I hate "ASSEMBLED" type of directories
[01:15] <doko> jbailey: ping
[01:15] <Keybuk> (if anyone else has opinions, please feel free to weigh in, because I'm not sure where to put the buggers <g>)
[01:17] <jbailey> Keybuk: Right.  Preserving dpkg behaviour is consistnat, at least.
[01:17] <jbailey> Keybuk: Like, I already create ~/Programming/packaging/package
[01:17] <jbailey> and work in there.
[01:17] <Keybuk> jbailey: yeah, but I was kinda hoping that "package" would _be_ the hct project directoy
[01:18] <jbailey> I wind up doing the some for ~/Programming/{cvs,bzr,svn}tree
[01:18] <jbailey>  /package
[01:18] <jbailey> So it would itself create subdirectories underneath for everything?
[01:18] <Keybuk> ie:
[01:18] <jbailey> doko: pong
[01:18] <Keybuk> descent scott% cd /tmp/projects/pmount
[01:18] <Keybuk> descent pmount% ls
[01:18] <Keybuk> 01-man-plugdev.patch/  debian/  pmount-0.9.4/  pmount_0.9.4.orig/
[01:18] <Keybuk> descent pmount% ls .hct-project
[01:18] <Keybuk> manifest  url  version
[01:18] <jdub> Keybuk: hmm
[01:18] <jdub> Keybuk: that annoys me too
[01:19] <Keybuk> (and yes, the evil ++ and ,, and {hct} filenames are all gone now <g>)
[01:22] <jdub> yay
[01:23] <Keybuk> but I don't know where to put the resulting source package, dsc, changes, etc. files
[01:23] <Keybuk> cause that pmount-0.9.4 is a branch:
[01:23] <Keybuk> descent pmount% bzr info pmount-0.9.4
[01:23] <Keybuk> branch format: Bazaar-NG branch, format 6
[01:23] <Keybuk> ...
[01:36] <Keybuk> anyone?  bueller?
[01:43] <mdz> Keybuk: cwd
[01:45] <Keybuk> mdz: do you mean in the projects/pmount directory, or projects/ ?
[01:45] <Keybuk> the trouble with that is you need to make a pmount-0.9.4 directory for dpkg which conflicts with the one in the project
[01:47] <Keybuk> (maybe renaming that is the problem, as it's not clear what it is anyway)
[01:51] <mdz> Keybuk: I mean wherever the build command is run
[01:52] <mdz> if a command line tool must output something by default to someplace other than stdout, it should end up in cwd
[01:52] <mdz> least surprising
[01:52] <Keybuk> but what do you do where that conflicts with stuff in the working directory?
[01:52] <mdz> if you have a .dsc or .changes in there already, they should be overwritten
[01:53] <Keybuk> is the name-ver directory I'm having problems with :-/
[01:53] <zenwhen> Breezy really feels complete and works great guys. Thanks.
[01:58] <Keybuk> mdz: though you know, I think you're right -- it should just output the diff.gz/orig.tar.gz/dsc/changes in the working directory
[01:59] <Keybuk> that's the right way to do it
[02:00] <Keybuk> then if the user wants to unpack the source, they can worry about not overwriting things <g>
[02:37] <zul> evening
[02:58] <magnon> congrats on release, everyone!
[03:02] <magnon> entirely offtopic, what's a packet of cigs in Montreal? =)
[03:03] <bob2> small cardboard box, contains sticks of tobacco wrapped in paper
[03:03] <mdz> RIMSHOT
[03:04] <mdz> beat me to it
[03:04] <zul> cigs are totally expensive in montreal
[03:04] <zul> equivalent to a first born
[03:05] <diamond> zul: first born are ten a penny these days ,-)
[03:05] <HrdwrBob> haha
[03:05] <magnon> bob2: bastard
[03:05] <zul> diamond: canadian penny is expensive
[03:05] <magnon> price in CAD, please ;)
[03:05] <magnon> price of a first born in CAD, then
[03:06] <zul> meh...looking it up
[03:07] <Burgundavia> magnon, zul, not cheap, we tax you bastards here
[03:09] <zul> Burgundavia, i know im in ottawa...thank god i dont smoke
[03:10] <zul> diamond, i think they are like $10 a pack not sure these days
[03:10] <magnon> jesus
[03:11] <magnon> that's like norway prices
[03:11] <Nafallo> :-)
[03:12] <diamond> zul: that's about 20% more than they are here (ireland) (i think, re: prices, i don't smoke either -)
[03:12] <daniels> they're ~$10 in .au as well.  sin tax.
[03:12] <zul> beer is cheap though
[03:12] <daniels> ish
[03:12] <magnon> that helps
[03:12] <magnon> cheaper than here anyway
[03:13] <magnon> my beer in a somewhat brown place today cost 9 CAD
[03:16] <diamond> http://www.kidon.com/smoke/int-prices.htm may be of interest
[03:16] <diamond> ah. it's very out of date.
[03:17] <magnon> very. :)
[03:18] <dseomn> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17744 anybody with access to us.releases.ubuntu.com here?
[03:25] <diamond> nite folks.
[04:20] <lamont__> dieman: ping
[04:24] <magnon> jbailey: ping
[04:46] <dieman> lamont__: hey
[04:46] <dieman> lamont__: never got those dvds
[04:46] <dieman> lamont__: i was just messing with apache, so it was up/down etc
[04:48] <wasabi> dunt suppose there is a good pptp vpn tool?
[04:48] <wasabi> (gui)
[04:48] <bob2> "windows xp"
[04:51] <_maydayj_> wasabi - try http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/
[04:51] <wasabi> Ahh hah!
[05:42] <fabbione> morning guys
[05:42] <tseng> hey fabbio, congrats on the annoucements
[05:42] <fabbione> tseng: thanks
[05:49] <Nafallo> gnight all
[06:07] <mxpxpod> has anyone seen "corrupt double-linked list" errors?
[06:08] <bob2> from what?
[06:08] <mxpxpod> monodevelop, update-notifier
[06:09] <mxpxpod> update-notifier does it when I click on it to show updates
[06:11] <mxpxpod> monodevelop does it when I close tabs
[06:16] <mxpxpod> bob2: any clue?
[06:18] <mxpxpod> bob2: it crashes monodevelop, but update-notifier seems to keep going...
[06:20] <mxpxpod> bob2: ok, that's strange...
[06:20] <mxpxpod> a recompile of update-notifier fixed is...
[06:20] <mxpxpod> s/is/it/
[06:22] <mxpxpod> must be some lib somewhere on my system
[06:55] <mxpxpod> bob2: still there?
[06:56] <magnon> I'm wondering, does anyone of you know the hotel rates for ubz?
[06:57] <mxpxpod> *sigh*
[06:57] <mxpxpod> so I've narrowed it down to gksudo on the update-notifier thing
[06:57] <magnon> what update-notifier thing?
[06:57] <magnon> mine still infinitely loops.
[06:58] <mxpxpod> when I click on the icon, it says *** glibc detected *** corrupted double-linked list: 0x10067528 ***
[06:58] <mxpxpod> on the console
[06:58] <magnon> oh
[06:58] <mxpxpod> I've narrowed it down to gksudo
[06:58] <mxpxpod> when I run this command:
[06:59] <magnon> right
[06:59] <mxpxpod> when I run this command:
[06:59] <mxpxpod>  /usr/bin/gksudo --message "Please enter your password to run" /usr/bin/update-manager
[06:59] <bob2> don't know, sorry
[06:59] <mxpxpod> it gives me that error
[07:00] <tritium> hi bob2 
[07:01] <bob2> hey tritium 
[07:04] <mxpxpod> magnon: it's got something to do with the --message argument
[07:04] <magnon> hm
[07:04] <mxpxpod> I'm building a debugging version of gksu to try and backtrace this
[07:05] <magnon> sorry, I could possibly look into it but my party starts the yearly weekend long meeting today and I'm preparing a press release on the new govt in norway's political platform from our point of view :P
[07:05] <mxpxpod> :)
[07:05] <mxpxpod> that's fine
[07:05] <mxpxpod> magnon: could you check if it does it on another platform other than ppc?
[07:05] <magnon> uh
[07:05] <fabbione> guys i am going to take down ubuntulog for a few minutes
[07:05] <mxpxpod> whoa
[07:05] <fabbione> upgrading the server to breezy
[07:05] <magnon> my colleague isn't awake yet, if not I could've asked him
[07:06] <fabbione> IF i hit the raid disk check
[07:06] <mxpxpod> gksu FTBFS on ppc
[07:06] <magnon> 30 minutes =)
[07:06] <fabbione> it might take me more than 40 minutes to come back online
[07:06] <fabbione> (actually more, but well..)
[07:07] <magnon> mxpxpod: I'm not getting the message
[07:07] <mxpxpod> magnon: what arch?
[07:07] <magnon> although, I'm not running the newest version of anything on this lappie
[07:07] <magnon> ppc
[07:07] <mxpxpod> hrm
[07:08] <magnon> what's gksudo's package?
[07:08] <mxpxpod> gksu
[07:08] <magnon> d'oh
[07:08] <magnon> newest verison
[07:08] <magnon> *version
[07:08] <mxpxpod> huh?
[07:08] <magnon> wait, wait
[07:09] <magnon> idea to update lists first
[07:09] <magnon> jees, I should sleep
[07:09] <magnon> gksu is the newest version and I don't get your error, that's my conclusion :)
[07:09] <mxpxpod> hmm
[07:09] <mxpxpod> so, something on my system is corrupt
[07:09] <magnon> or the problem is intra-architectural :-)
[07:09] <mxpxpod> huh?
[07:10] <crimsun> he's dissing your $arch
[07:10] <magnon> oh, never mind me preparing political statementish sentences
[07:10] <magnon> crimsun: I'm using it, though
[07:10] <crimsun> ;-)
[07:10] <magnon> I'd rather have x86, but noone makes well designed laptops except apple
[07:10] <crimsun> I'd rather have ppc, but I'm not complaining. :-)
[07:11] <magnon> well you get a bunch of stuff not working
[07:11] <magnon> reason one is arch
[07:11] <mxpxpod> magnon: try building gksu...
[07:11] <magnon> reason two is apple+hw vendors
[07:11] <crimsun> magnon: more stuff to fix, yay
[07:11] <magnon> mxpxpod: build-dep first and all, could take a few minutes :)
[07:11] <magnon> crimsun: try fixing flash :-)
[07:11] <mxpxpod> magnon: thanks for trying all this stuff for me
[07:12] <mxpxpod> ugh, don't get me started on flash
[07:12] <magnon> mxpxpod: no problem. I have a 74 page political platform to read, or help you out a bit. It weighs up. ;)
[07:12] <mxpxpod> :)
[07:13] <crimsun> magnon: got source? :-)
[07:13] <magnon> to flash? no :)
[07:13] <mxpxpod> I just can't believe that gksu ftbfs...
[07:14] <magnon> hm. what's ftbf?
[07:14] <mxpxpod> failed to build from source
[07:14] <magnon> aha
[07:14] <mxpxpod> I just learned it that the other day
[07:15] <magnon> googling it got me to
[07:15] <magnon> http://www.dvocha.org/cgi-bin/four.cgi?FTBF
[07:15] <magnon> which made me go wtf
[07:25] (mxpxpod/#ubuntu-devel) magnon: perhaps this would be a good time to try out the breezy installer ;)
[07:26] (magnon/#ubuntu-devel) mxpxpod: think so :)
[07:26] (magnon/#ubuntu-devel) wb ubuntulog :P
[07:26] <mxpxpod> ok, here's something funky
[07:28] <mxpxpod> if I try to build gksu with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="nostrip noopt" sudo apt-get source -b gksu, it fails
[07:28] <mxpxpod> but if I take off the DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, it works
[07:30] <mxpxpod> magnon: how well does dvd playing work with totem-gstreamer on your ppc?
[07:31] <infinity> Does anything work well with totem-gstreamer?
[07:31] <magnon> never tried
[07:31] <magnon> infinity: no
[07:31] <magnon> well
[07:31] <mxpxpod> haha
[07:31] <magnon> if you recon playing sound tracks from videos that should be audiovisual is "well", then yes
[07:31] <magnon> personally, I am on the verge of installing totem-xine
[07:32] <mxpxpod> magnon: totem-gstreamer plays most mpegs, wmvs, avis, divxs etc... but totem-xine plays dvds
[07:32] <mxpxpod> so I'm torn :)
[07:32] <magnon> hehe
[07:32] <magnon> hm
[07:32] <magnon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Foo/Bar
[07:33] <magnon> does anyone else get the css problem?
[07:33] <magnon> it happens on every two or deeper level page
[07:33] <infinity> If by CSS problem, you mean "no CSS", then yes.
[07:34] <magnon> but of course
[07:34] <infinity> I assume it's using a relative URI for the CSS, rather than an absolute.
[07:34] <magnon> I'd see that as a CSS problem
[07:34] <infinity> I'll smack the webmaster folk around
[07:34] <magnon> yeah, it wasn't that way before at least
[07:34] <magnon> hawkai.
[07:34] <magnon> mxpxpod: crossed my mind as well
[07:34] <magnon> blahblahblah social security with focus on children blah blah
[07:34] <infinity> mxpxpod : I've done it in the past, but for interesting and weird reasons.
[07:34] <magnon> puh-lease
[07:35] <infinity> Oh, and confirmed that gksu doesn't build with -O0
[07:35] <infinity> So, uhh.  Don't do that, then. :)
[07:35] <mxpxpod> infinity: :P
 On all arches.
 Quite nicely.
[07:36] <magnon> :P
[07:36] <mxpxpod> :D
[07:37] <infinity> magnon : Note that we don't BUILD with -O0
[07:37] <infinity> So, yes.  It does.
[07:37] <mxpxpod> wow, this is a strange bt
[07:37] <infinity> And this still should have been somewhere else, rather than 5 pages of scrollback in -devel, that's all I was saying.
[07:39] <mxpxpod> hopefully a reinstall of libc6 will fix this crap
[07:40] <infinity> Anyhow, add an "#include <locale.h>" near the top of gksu.c and it should build fine, if you'd prefer a -O0 binary.
[07:57] <jsgotangco> infinity, not even resting even for a day? =)
[08:18] <highvoltage> JaneW: ping
[08:25] <JaneW> highvoltage: hello
[08:28] <\sh> good morning gentlemen
[08:28] <\sh> ogra: downloading edubuntu isos
[08:28] <\sh> ogra: onto my laptop that is...
[08:29] <Keybuk> it's nice, this period, isn't it
[08:30] <Lathiat> where your doing nothing? :)
[08:30] <Keybuk> the storm's over, and you've got nothing to do until the emergency crews arrive
[08:30] <Lathiat> heh
[08:30] <\sh> Keybuk: hehe...u should work for ISH ;) 
[08:30] <Keybuk> "ISH" ?
[08:30] <\sh> Keybuk: if there is nothing to be done for ubuntu , you can fix bloody SUSE servers at our DC
[08:31] <\sh> Keybuk: 2nd biggest cable tv/cable internet provider in germany :)
[08:31] <Keybuk> heh, sadly there's plenty to be done
[08:33] <\sh> just rebooted two fat hp servers and two slim hp servers...and sadly, those guys from frankfurt changed something so badly, that our monitoring system throws out alarms without an end
[08:36] <Keybuk> heh, I'm just watching the practice times for this weekend's GP while waiting for baz
[08:36] <Keybuk> and, oddly bzr
[08:37] <highvoltage> Keybuk: i think there's *lots* of work to be done :)
[08:38] <Keybuk> though bzr isn't really being slow, it's just outputting a lot of debugging logging output and gnome-terminal is being slow :p
[08:40] <highvoltage> JaneW: if you need something to be fixed on the website in a hurry, my cellphone number is +27 72 399 6864.
[08:40] <highvoltage> JaneW: i can always connect via gprs and make a quick fix if needed.
[08:41] <highvoltage> sorry, wrong window
[08:41] <highvoltage> :)
[08:42] <JaneW> highvoltage: thanks, but we wouldn;t have woken you for that! -> moving to #edubuntu
[08:43] <pef> hello !
[08:43] <highvoltage> hi pef 
[08:44] <infinity> highvoltage : Do you have lowlevel webmaster-ish access to the wiki, or should I bug hno73?
[08:46] <mxpxpod> infinity: so, I've tried reinstalling all (I think) dependencies of gksu and nothing is working to get rid of this bug
[08:48] <infinity> Okay, so what's the actual bug?  (not the -O0 build failure)
[08:48] <mxpxpod> infinity: when I run '/usr/bin/gksudo --message "Please enter your password to run:\n /usr/bin/update-manager" /usr/bin/update-manager'
[08:48] <mxpxpod> I get this:
[08:49] <mxpxpod> *** glibc detected *** corrupted double-linked list: 0x10068568 ***
[08:49] <mxpxpod> Aborted
[08:49] <fabbione> oh interesting
[08:49] <highvoltage> infinity: you should bug hno73 ;)
[08:49] <mxpxpod> and this is on ppc
[08:49] <highvoltage> infinity: i have access to the docroot of the edubuntu static pages
[08:50] <infinity> Ahh.
[08:50] <Keybuk> I love those errors, "GLIBC DETECTED!  DANGER!  DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!"
[08:50] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: and the backtrace gives me nothing
[08:51] <Keybuk> usually that means Mr Pointer has wondered off the end of Mr Buffer
[08:51] <Keybuk> have you tried valgrind?
[08:51] <pitti> Good morning
[08:51] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: no, it doesn't work on pp
[08:51] <mxpxpod> c
[08:51] <mxpxpod> pitti: dude
[08:52] <Keybuk> I thought it did now?
[08:52] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: there aren't suppression files for it
[08:52] <infinity> Keybuk : valgrind only works on i386 and amd64, afaik.
[08:52] <Keybuk> the website claims ppc versions with download links
[08:52] <infinity> But pitti runs a ppc desktop, maybe he can tell you wtf is up. :)
[08:53] <mxpxpod> pitti: I've got some problems :( try running this with latest breezy: /usr/bin/gksudo --message "Please enter your password to run:\n /usr/bin/update-manager" /usr/bin/update-manager
[08:53] <Keybuk> mxpxpod: is it gksudo or update-manager that has the problem
[08:53] <pitti> mxpxpod: on ppc?
[08:53] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: gksudo
[08:53] <mxpxpod> pitti: yeah
[08:53] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: because it runs fine if you do gksudo /usr/bin/update-manager
[08:53] <infinity> Keybuk : Curious.  We should get that into dapper.
[08:54] <Keybuk> ==21948==  Address 0x1C1E4B84 is 0 bytes after a block of size 4 alloc'd
[08:54] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: valgrind "works" on ppc, but with no suppression files, it's kinda useless because it'll just pop up errors all the time
[08:54] <Keybuk> ==21948==    by 0x804A506: (within /usr/bin/gksu)
[08:54] <pitti> mxpxpod: works
[08:54] <Keybuk> ==21948== Invalid write of size 4
[08:54] <mxpxpod> pitti: dammit!
[08:54] <Keybuk> ==21948==    at 0x1B91486F: gksu_context_sudo_try_need_password (in /usr/lib/libgksu1.2.so.0.0.2)
[08:54] <Keybuk> ==21948==  Address 0x1C42E784 is 0 bytes after a block of size 20 alloc'd
[08:54] <Keybuk> ==21948==    by 0x1B914812: gksu_context_sudo_try_need_password (in /usr/lib/libgksu1.2.so.0.0.2)
[08:54] <mxpxpod> pitti: why the hell am I getting this:
[08:55] <Keybuk> etc.
[08:55] <mxpxpod> *** glibc detected *** corrupted double-linked list: 0x10068568 ***
[08:55] <mxpxpod> Aborted
[08:55] <infinity> Oh, the PPC port is 2.4.x still.  Someone needs to forward-port those patches.
[08:56] <mxpxpod> Keybuk: it's like gksudo doesn't like the --message option
[08:59] <mxpxpod> pitti: so, basicallly I'm trying to figure out why this is only happening on _my_ machine :(
[09:00] <pitti> mxpxpod: hm, this is breezy final?
[09:00] <pitti> mxpxpod: do you get other crashes which could point to corrupted RAM?
[09:00] <mxpxpod> pitti: yessir... updated today
[09:00] <mxpxpod> pitti: one in monodevelop that looks similar
[09:00] <mxpxpod> pitti: but that's it
[09:00] <pitti> mxpxpod: I installed from scratch, could be worthwile to check if a hoary->breezy update exhibits this
[09:00] <mxpxpod> hmm
[09:01] <mxpxpod> I was considering (earlier) doing a fresh install tomorrow
[09:01] <mxpxpod> it's just frustrating... I reinstalled all the packages that gksudo depends on
[09:02] <mxpxpod> thinking that somehow they might have been corrupt... but to no avail
[09:02] <pitti> mxpxpod: you migh build a debugging version and gdb it
[09:02] <mxpxpod> pitti: of gksudo?
[09:02] <mxpxpod> pitti: did it... no dice
[09:02] <pitti> mxpxpod: depends on whether gksudo or u-m crashes
[09:03] <pitti> mxpxpod: does the crash happen if you execute other programs with gksudo?
[09:03] <mxpxpod> wait a minute...
[09:04] <mxpxpod> hey hey... this very well might be an update-manager issue...
[09:05] <mxpxpod> ok, this is really strange
[09:05] <mxpxpod> if I do: /usr/bin/gksudo --message "Please enter your password to run:\n /usr/bin/update-manager" update-manager, it doesn't crash
[09:06] <mxpxpod> but with the absolute path, it crashes
[09:10] <pitti> that's really weird
[09:10] <infinity> do you have more than one update-manager in your path?
[09:10] <pitti> I tried with an absolute path
[09:10] <pitti> I used exactly your command
[09:10] <pitti> mxpxpod: "which update-manager"
[09:11] <mxpxpod> which update-manager
[09:11] <mxpxpod> whoops
[09:11] <mxpxpod> /usr/bin/update-manager
[09:11] <pitti> ok, fine
[09:12] <highvoltage> Kamion: is there an rsync server for the edubuntu release cd?
[09:12] <pitti> mxpxpod: <mxpxpod> pitti: did it... no dice
[09:12] <pitti> mxpxpod: ^ what does that mean? no usable stack trace?
[09:12] <mxpxpod> pitti: right
[09:17] <mxpxpod> pitti: *sigh* this is strange
[09:18] <mxpxpod> and I need to get to bed
[09:18] <maswan> highvoltage: se.releases.u.c::ubuntu-releases/edubuntu/ ?
[09:18] <mxpxpod> pitti: want me to query you the bt?
[09:19] <pitti> mxpxpod: can't hurt
[09:19] <infinity> mxpxpod : Do you get the same behaviour if you "sudo su", then "/usr/bin/update-manager"?
[09:19] <mxpxpod> infinity: no
[09:19] <maswan> More than 10TB of breezy from over here since release.
[09:20] <Lathiat> whats that, 16,000 copies of a cd?
[09:20] <maswan> yeah, something like that
[09:20] <Lathiat> nice
[09:21] <maswan> http://farbror.acc.umu.se/stats/monitordata/index.shtml
[09:21] <Lathiat> yeh i've been keeping an eye on 3 ;p
[09:21] <maswan> and as expected, demand dropped during the night, but now it is ramping up again
[09:22] <maswan> "night" here also means after office hours in north america, so it could be just that the demand is high during office hours in europe and north america
[09:25] <mxpxpod> infinity: thanks for all the help... I'm going to do a fresh install tomorrow and hopefully I won't have all these friggin problems :)
[09:25] <Lathiat> gah my phone wont charge :\
[09:48] <\sh> mvo: ping...-> query
[09:59] <Kinnison> Morning
[10:02] <sivang> Morning Kinnison :)
[10:03] <pitti> Hi Kinnison 
[10:04] <sivang> pitti:that fast :)
[10:08] <pitti> Hi carlos 
[10:08] <carlos> pitti, morning
[10:15] <dholbach> hellas
[10:16] <dholbach> hi michael :)
[10:19] <pitti> ah, the Greek mood dholbach again :-) Good morning!
[10:19] <dholbach> hellas pitti! :)
[10:19] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[10:20] <\sh> hey sivang :)
[10:20] <mvo> hey sivang 
[10:21] <sivang> hi \sh :)
[10:24] <\sh> sudo rm -Rvf ~/chroot_breezy 
[10:25] <jsgotangco> woooo
[10:25] <sivang> s/chroot_breezy/chroot_dapper ? :)
[10:25] <maswan> \sh: just make sure you don't have your /home bind-mounted there? :)
[10:25] <sivang> maswan: can do that without dchrooting :)
[10:25] <sivang> errm, actually, it's the same
[10:25] <\sh> maswan: I just unmounted the bind ;)
[10:27] <zyga> morning everyone
[10:28] <maswan> \sh: I've been bitten by that, luckily, the earliest part of /home was my homedir, which had a few kernel trees. so I C-c:ed it before it hit the other users. ;)
[10:32] <Kamion> highvoltage: sure, same as the one for all the other release CDs
[10:36] <jsgotangco> i tried the DVD torrents a few hours ago and i didnt get any seeds :(
[10:39] <\sh> maswan: well...the last time I trashed a home dir, was not even a trashing it was a mess ,-) I wanted to change some permissions on the ftp homedir, and changed finally 300 userhomedirs 
[10:41] <pitti> elmo: can you please remove evolution from hoary-updates? the version in hoary-security has the same patch and is newer than the -updates one
[10:43] <maswan> Kamion: sent 453 bytes  received 1689830041 bytes  29821.68 bytes/sec
[10:44] <maswan> Kamion: the one that finally managed to get ubuntu-server
[10:44] <maswan> Kamion: got done a couple of hours ago
[10:47] <pitti> Hi seb128 
[10:48] <seb128> hey pitti
[10:53] <Kamion> maswan: hooray!
[11:04] <maswan> Kamion: indeed
[11:09] <mantas> Hi all
[11:09] <mantas> aigarius, hi, long time without a meet :(
[11:19] <siretart> hey folks
[11:19] <siretart> no jigdos available for dvd images?
[11:22] <Kamion> siretart: no, sorry
[11:22] <Kamion> the build time was too long
[11:22] <siretart> ah. okay
[11:23] <mantas> :(((
[11:23] <siretart> Kamion: do the dvd images contain all of main?
[11:23] <Kamion> siretart: all of <appropriate distro> supported, which is a (large) subset of main
[11:23] <mantas> Kamion, maybe it would be wise to build DVD jigdo files at least for final Breezy release ?
[11:23] <siretart> oh
[11:23] <Kamion> mantas: maybe I'd already thought of that ;-)
[11:23] <siretart> :)
[11:24] <Kamion> it's not trivial to build them after the fact, but I'll see what I can do
[11:24] <mantas> lots of people have release candidate DVD's, so it's waste of download time and bandwith to download whole DVD again
[11:24] <Kamion> they can either use rsync, or just upgrade rather than reinstall
[11:24] <fabbione> mantas: rsync would do fine in that case
[11:25] <mantas> Kamion, I'm not talking about upgrading installed system, I'm talking about upgrading of DVD images ;)
[11:26] <mantas> fabbione, really ?
[11:26] <fabbione> mantas: yes.. rsync the new DVD on top of the old image
[11:27] <mantas> rsync will not download whole 2,5 GB if I have release candidate dvd ?
[11:27] <Kamion> no
[11:28] <Kamion> fabbione brought up a good point
[11:28] <Kamion> jigdo for our DVDs would be of somewhat limited usefulness
[11:28] <Kamion> because there are very large pieces of the DVD images that aren't in the archive, namely the live CD image and the WinFOSS stuff
[11:28] <Kamion> so the .template file would be *huge*
[11:29] <Robot101> ha
[11:29] <Robot101> thats unfortunate :)
[11:30] <Kamion> as in, the template file would be roughly CD-sized
[11:30] <siretart> hm. what about a dvd jigdo image, with 'just' all of ubuntu/main and nothing else (no winfoss, no livecd)?
[11:30] <Kamion> siretart: it wouldn't work
[11:30] <Kamion> oh, you mean a separate build
[11:30] <siretart> yepp
[11:30] <mantas> Kamion, You can publish WINFOSS stuff at download server, then .template will be no big. Btw, maybe it would be wise to add info about rsync to README files at ftp://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/dvd/ ?
[11:30] <Kamion> not for breezy, and unlikely in general; we have *far too many* builds
[11:30] <pitti> Kamion: ah, you can't tell jigdo to scan the live CDs?
[11:31] <Kamion> mantas: I'm not doing that kind of jigdo messing around for breezy.
[11:31] <Kamion> I refuse. I've had enough of breezy :)
[11:31] <bob2> are there really that many people downloading dvds?
[11:31] <Robot101> pitti: the live CD is not comprised of .debs
[11:31] <pitti> Kamion: it would be nice to jigdo against the old DVD, the current CD, and the current live CD
[11:31] <mantas> ;)
[11:31] <Kamion> pitti: not AFAIK
[11:31] <siretart> Kamion: for official, I understand and accept, but I don't see technical reasons for not doing this in private, are they?
[11:31] <Robot101> is it?! :P
[11:31] <pitti> Robot101: jigdo does not need .debs, AFAIK; I'm talking about the big .cloop image
[11:31] <Kamion> mantas: we don't publicise rsync very heavily because the server gets easily overloaded
[11:31] <Kamion> siretart: I am overloaded
[11:32] <pitti> Kamion: it's just a nice-to-have, but if it is nontrivial, let's just forget about it
[11:32] <Kamion> especially before release - and cdimage is too
[11:32] <Robot101> pitti: is that file in the archive though?
[11:32] <Kamion> pitti: it's non-trivial
[11:32] <Kinnison> Kamion(int), Kamion(char*) *and* Kamion(float)
[11:32] <siretart> Kamion: I don't want to overload you. sorry
[11:32] <Kamion> Kinnison++
[11:32] <Kamion> siretart: and we don't have "private" CD images :)
[11:33] <Kamion> maybe one day Launchpad will do CD building and you'll all be able to build whatever weird stuff you want :)
[11:33] <Kamion> but for now, it all comes out of my time
[11:33] <Kamion> so we do one of each type of image and that's all
[11:33] <mantas> Kamion, OK, I understand, thanks for info about rsync
[11:34] <Kamion> which is good for testing anyway - it avoids dividing efforts
[11:34] <siretart> Kamion: I was thinking of doing it myself for my private fun. not overloading you ;)
[11:34] <Kamion> mantas: people often seem to guess rsync cdimage.ubuntu.com:: anyway
[11:34] <Kamion> siretart: you're welcome to :)
[11:34] <siretart> :)
[11:35] <Kamion> it would be fairly trivial to turn off the switches in cdimage that control that
[11:36] <mantas> ;
[11:38] <\sh> mvo: pingeling
[11:39] <mvo> \sh: pongelong
[11:39] <\sh> mvo: please do a speed check
[11:39] <mvo> \sh: with pleasure
[11:40] <highvoltage> i have colour in my bash and i can't see a performance difference at all.
[11:40] <highvoltage> bah! wrong channel again!
[11:41] <Treenaks> highvoltage: #gentoo? :)
[11:41] <highvoltage> Treenaks: close, my local LUG ;)
[11:42] <Treenaks> highvoltage: try the color prompt on a 9600 terminal
[11:42] <highvoltage> Treenaks: i've run mc before on a 9600 terminal :P
[11:42] <highvoltage> (not pleasant though)
[11:54] <\sh> BAH
[11:55] <\sh> live cd breezy i386 -> hp nc6000 laptop with port replicator/docking station -> doesn't startup with the right resolution on the external monitor, makes the TFT display freaking around and only after shutting down the lid, and reopening it, you see the correct picture on the tft
[11:57] <Treenaks> I need to get an external monitor :)
[11:57] <\sh> the same happens with a nc6120 without a port replicator/docking station but with external monitor directly connected...
[11:58] <\sh> without external monitor/docking station etc. everything is fine
[11:58] <Treenaks> \sh: I have a port replicator/dock for my NW8240 -- but I don't know if my monitor is "good enough" to test with
[11:58] <\sh> Treenaks: is a "nec multisync lcd1830" good enough? 
[11:59] <Treenaks> \sh: if you're willing to send it to me ;)
[12:00] <\sh> Treenaks: well...this is what we're using here...and I don't like the quality...2 TFTs broke during the last 2 weeks for me...and they were only 1 year old :(
[12:00] <Treenaks> \sh: ouch
[12:01] <Treenaks> \sh: I have an ancient Compaq CRT to test with
[12:04] <\sh> Treenaks: would be great :)
[12:04] <Treenaks> \sh: yeah, too bad it doesn't fit on my desk :(
[12:05] <Treenaks> so I'll have to do some magic to make it work
[12:05] <spacedman> guys, is there a way of getting the ubuntu version from the command line?
[12:05] <Treenaks> spacedman: cat /etc/issue :)
[12:05] <Treenaks> or cat /etc/lsb-release
[12:06] <Treenaks> the second one works best I think
[12:06] <spacedman> ooh... didnt know lsb-release...
[12:06] <spacedman> thats an LSB standard thing I spose... neato.
[12:06] <spacedman> sweet. cheers.
[12:09] <Keybuk> Diziet: so, that mysterious python dep shit came from dh_python
[12:10] <Diziet> That's nice.  Can it be persuaded not to be barmy ?
[12:10] <Keybuk> apparently not
[12:10] <Keybuk> I just stopped using it and hard-coded the right dep :p
[12:10] <Diziet> :-)
[12:11] <Keybuk> pitti: btw, if you figure out how to _close_ bugs in Malone, please let me know
[12:11] <Keybuk> because I'm buggered if I can find it
[12:11] <Keybuk> there's a "* Mark bug as duplicate" but nothing else
[12:11] <pitti> Keybuk: it took me a while to find out
[12:11] <bob2> Keybuk: apparently you have to click on the "upstream" link, then change the state to fixed
[12:11] <pitti> Keybuk: but I closed several ones now
[12:11] <Keybuk> bob2: that's the thing, it all changed and now I can't find that link
[12:11] <bob2> Keybuk: but only if you own it, because bug reporters can't be trusted!
[12:11] <Keybuk> the upstream link tries to make me add it to another upstream
[12:11] <bob2> haha
[12:12] <pitti> Keybuk: but it it absolutely nonobvious where to click
[12:12] <TerminX> so, Tuesday for Dapper, huh?  *marks "change sources.list to use dapper" on his calendar*
[12:12] <Keybuk> is this another one of those oh-so-shiny links that's done in the same colour as ordinary text?
[12:12] <Keybuk> so you can only find it by waving your mouse around the page until the pointer changes?
[12:12] <pitti> Keybuk: right, it's not apparent that this is even a link
[12:12] <pitti> Keybuk: and even if it was, it is non-obvious that you can edit the status of the bug with it (and close it)
[12:13] <bob2> Keybuk: the "fixe requested for" column, apparently
[12:13] <bob2> wow, that's really unintuitive
[12:13] <pitti> there should just be an "Edit status" in the right menu
[12:13] <Keybuk> whoah
[12:13] <Keybuk> it's the "product (upstream)" bit of text you have to click?
[12:13] <bob2> so it seems
[12:14] <Diziet> I thought this thing was supposed to be having an email interface.
[12:15] <juliux> pitti, ping
[12:15] <bob2> I thought that was a 1.0 feature in june
[12:15] <maswan> Znarl: How's the DC doing? Got enough bandwidth for now?
[12:15] <pitti> Hi juliux 
[12:15] <juliux> pitti, ogra says that i show you this http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/EVMS-Snapshots_mit_Verschl%C3%BCsselung
[12:15] <juliux> pitti, i want make this with edubuntu
[12:16] <pitti> juliux: looks interesting
[12:16] <juliux> pitti, i will test it in vmware
[12:20] <Znarl> maswan : It's ok.  Things have become less busy today.
[12:20] <jmibanez> hello there
[12:20] <jmibanez> there seems to be a bug mounting floppies using the GNOME (Nautilus) interface
[12:20] <jmibanez> complains about "UDI is not a mountable volume"
[12:21] <jmibanez> i'm going to be filing a bug report, but i'd like to ask if anyone here has seen it
[12:21] <jmibanez> (the bug i mean)
[12:21] <maswan> Znarl: just so you know, if you are tight, feel free to dump more users on us. we're at about 75% of capacity, so we have some headroom for more users.
[12:21] <jmibanez> (so far, it looks like something to do with HAL + Project Utopia)
[12:21] <pitti> jmibanez: hm, neither my desktop nor my laptop has a floppy, and neither do the laptops of my flatmates :-(
[12:22] <Znarl> maswan : OK, thanks.
[12:22] <pitti> jmibanez: please file a bug and include the output of "lshal"
[12:22] <jmibanez> pitti, am in the process, thanks :)
[12:24] <jmibanez> pitti, err, no need, saw the bug in bugzilla
[12:24] <jmibanez> pitti, but will attach a comment with output of lshal
[12:24] <pitti> jmibanez: thanks; is it assigned to me?
[12:24] <jmibanez> any suggestions on how to trace this thing? would like to help squash it :)
[12:24] <jmibanez> pitti, errr... are you martin pitt? then if you are, yeah :)
[12:24] <pitti> jmibanez: let's talk through bz, I'm a bit busy atm
[12:25] <pitti> jmibanez: there I will see the debug stuff, et.
[12:25] <jmibanez> pitti, ok
[12:26] <pitti> jmibanez: which bug#?
[12:27] <jmibanez> 17562
[12:27] <jmibanez> pitti, 17562 :)
[12:29] <Kamion> Keybuk: dh_python creates a dependency on python if you use #! /usr/bin/env python
[12:29] <Keybuk> Kamion: but by the point it's scanning stuff, that's been replaced
[12:30] <Kamion> Keybuk: might want to look at the -V flag too
[12:30] <Kamion>        -V version
[12:30] <Kamion>            If the .py files your package ships are meant to be used by
[12:30] <Kamion>            a specific pythonX.Y version, you can use this option to
[12:30] <Kamion>            specify the desired version, such as 2.3. Do not use if you
[12:30] <Kamion>            ship modules in /usr/lib/site-python.
[12:30] <Keybuk> *shrug* was easier to hardcode <g>
[12:31] <pitti> jmibanez: that UDI looks indeed broken
[12:31] <Keybuk> you have to sed when there's a new python *anyway*
[12:31] <Kamion> Unidentified Drinking Injury?
[12:31] <pitti> jmibanez: but anyway, what does "pmount-hal /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer_storage -v" do?
[12:32] <jmibanez> same message as the one posted on bz
[12:32] <pitti> jmibanez: the "is not a mountable volume" one?
[12:33] <jmibanez> pitti, yup
[12:34] <jmibanez> pitti, hold on a sec, i'll be diffing the output of lshal on a hoary install on similar hardware
[12:34] <pitti> jmibanez: right, that UDI does not have the "volume" capability
[12:35] <pitti> jmibanez: I think I know what's wrong
[12:35] <pitti> jmibanez: but if it worked in hoary, a hoary lshal output is appreciated
[12:35] <jmibanez> pitti, ok. do you still need the diff against lshal (hoary)?
[12:36] <jmibanez> pitti, will attach
[12:36] <pitti> jmibanez: I can sort of reproduce it here with trying to mount the CD-ROM storage device
[12:36] <pitti> jmibanez: but with CD-ROMs it works since the media that is inserted generates a hal event and eventually gets its own volume
[12:47] <jmibanez> pitti, do you want me to attach a diff of the stanza in lshal for the floppy?
[12:48] <pitti> jmibanez: that would rock - or just attach the hoary stanza
[12:48] <pitti> jmibanez: that'll even be easier for me
[12:49] <pitti> jmibanez: I assume that in hoary, hal regarded the floppy as volume
[12:50] <jmibanez> pitti, looking at it now-- no, block.is_volume=false on hoary
[12:50] <pitti> jmibanez: does pmount-hal /the/udi work in hoary?
[12:50] <jmibanez> pitti, yes
[12:51] <jmibanez> pitti, i noticed however that linux.sysfs_path and sysfs_path_device point to two different places
[12:51] <pitti> jmibanez: hmm; please attach the stuff, I'll look at it
[12:51] <jmibanez> pitti, will do
[12:52] <pitti> jmibanez: thanks for your help!
[12:53] <Kamion> there, cdimage should support dapper now
[12:54] <jmibanez> pitti, no prob
[12:54] <jmibanez> pitti, btw, what else can i do to help trace this? (i'm also a programmer fwiw)
[12:55] <pitti> jmibanez: if you want to, you can look at the pmount-hal.c code and look what it uses to decide whether it's mountable (the code is trivial)
[12:56] <pitti> jmibanez: ah - "    volume = libhal_volume_from_udi( hal_ctx, udi );"
[12:56] <pitti> jmibanez: it seems that this really only catches volumes
[12:56] <jmibanez> pitti, you'll have to excuse me... how'd i get the code?
[12:56] <pitti> jmibanez: never mind, I know what's necessary
[12:56] <jmibanez> pitti, ok :)
[12:56] <pitti> jmibanez: apt-get source pmount
[12:56] <jmibanez> pitti, oh yeah
[12:56] <pitti> jmibanez: or look into the bzr branch
[12:57] <pitti> jmibanez: bzr branch http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/bzr/pmount/
[12:57] <jmibanez> pitti, no bzr on this machine (am helping out setup a netcafe)
[12:57] <pitti> jmibanez: it seems that if the UDI is not a volume, p-hal should check if it is a storage device
[12:59] <pitti> jmibanez: storage.no_partitions_hint = true  (bool)
[12:59] <pitti> jmibanez: that's the thing to check
[12:59] <pitti> jmibanez: if the UDI is a storage device with this property, it should be accepted as well
[01:03] <jmibanez> pitti, hmm... from looking at it, that moves the problem to libhal-storage?
[01:03] <jmibanez> pitti, pmount-hal doesn't seem like it's the problem
[01:03] <pitti> jmibanez: no, it's just pmount-hal not checking for this case
[01:04] <pitti> jmibanez: well, the real problem is that floppies are not hotpluggable
[01:04] <jmibanez> pitti, ah, true
[01:04] <pitti> jmibanez: if they were, hal would pick it up and create a volume node for it
[01:04] <pitti> jmibanez: but with floppies, you can more or less just try to mount and check if it worked
[01:04] <pitti> jmibanez: I added a followup
[01:06] <jmibanez> pitti, thanks. (this is why F/OSS is so great :)) )
[01:06] <pitti> jmibanez: that's why I love it, too :-)
[01:06] <pitti> jmibanez: I'll release pmount 0.9.6 to debian soon, and as soon as dapper opens, I'll sync it there
[01:07] <jmibanez> anyway, am off
[01:08] <jmibanez> pitti, when will breezy update with pmount 0.9.6, if ever? (just curious)
[01:08] <pitti> jmibanez: never
[01:08] <pitti> jmibanez: breezy is closed
[01:08] <pitti> jmibanez: and it's not a critical bug
[01:08] <pitti> Hey Yagisan 
[01:08] <seb128> pitti: waiting on dapper ? :)
[01:09] <Yagisan> G'day pitti
[01:09] <pitti> seb128: lots of new crack is waiting :-)
[01:09] <seb128> he he
[01:09] <pitti> seb128: but for now I have some time to catch up with security
[01:09] <jmibanez> pitti, ah... would it be ok if i try backporting it to breezy? my friend who i'm helping with needs floppy access via GNOME
[01:09] <pitti> seb128: if you happen to be bored, just ask, I have some work :-)
[01:09] <pitti> jmibanez: yes, breezy-backports should be fine
[01:09] <pitti> jmibanez: right, I forgot about that
[01:09] <seb128> pitti: no thanks, I've some bug triage to do :)
[01:10] <jmibanez> great :)
[01:10] <pitti> jmibanez: unlike breezy->hoary, dapper->breezy backports for pmount stuff should be fine
[01:10] <pitti> seb128: me too, actually :-/
[01:10] <jmibanez> anyhoo... off to meet my SO. thanks for the help pitti 
[01:10] <Yagisan> pitti - only out one day and already I see a security update released for breezy
[01:11] <pitti> Yagisan: there will be more today
[01:12] <Yagisan> pitti - nothing that requires a reboot I hope
[01:12] <pitti> Yagisan: no
[01:30] <infinity> pitti : Argh.
[01:30] <pitti> infinity: meh?
[01:31] <Kamion> /dev/sda3            562456664 356469920 177415576  67% /
[01:31] <Kamion> elmo: ^-- little somewhat happier now
[01:32] <infinity> pitti :         dh_gencontrol -plibcurl2 -plibcurl2-dev -- -v"1:7.11.2-12ubuntu3" -V"cavok:Binary-Version=1:7.11.2-12ubuntu3"
[01:32] <infinity> pitti : curl in hoary-security.  (version in debian/rules needs to be bumped)
[01:32] <pitti> infinity: grumble - thanks for the hint
[01:32] <pitti> infinity: for breezy and warty, too?
[01:33] <pitti> infinity: the breezy packages are alreadfy there
[01:33] <infinity> pitti : Check, but I think hoary is the only one that shipped the crazy multiple-curl-in-one-source thing.
[01:33] <infinity> wary may have as well.
[01:33] <infinity> warty, too.
[01:33] <infinity> I think breezy is fine.
[01:33] <pitti> ok, I check, thanks
[01:33] <Kamion> maybe some day I'll take a cartload of CD-Rs down to the DC and burn archival copies of all the old releases rather than keeping them around in little:/home/cjwatson/
[01:34] <siretart> what part in the installer writes /etc/network/interfaces?
[01:35] <Kamion> siretart: netcfg
[01:35] <siretart> okay
[01:35] <siretart> I try to debug why my preseeded installation lacks the 'auto eth0' stanza
[01:36] <Kamion> we don't add auto eth0 if the interface is hotpluggable
[01:36] <siretart> huh? this is a test installation in vmware
[01:37] <Kamion> instead we add mapping hotplug, script grep, and a map line for the interface
[01:37] <Kamion> so that the interface is brought up when it appears
[01:37] <siretart> then a 'auto hotplug' stanza should be somewhere, right?
[01:40] <Kamion> no
[01:40] <Kamion> mapping hotplug, not auto
[01:41] <Kamion> Znarl: would you mind doing a couple of loop-mounts on little for me?
[01:41] <maswan> Kamion: i'll try to mirror cdimage/releases, it is likely to take a long time though.
[01:42] <Znarl> Kamion : As long as you don't mind creating an RT request?
[01:42] <Kamion> ok, but it's only temporary
[01:42] <Kamion> like, for ten minutes while I copy the stuff out :)
[01:42] <Kamion> maswan: ok, no rush for that
[01:42] <Znarl> Kamion : Oh, ok.  Message me what you'd like done.
[01:43] <maswan> Kamion: Indeed, I'm getting a whopping 35k/s now. ;)
[01:47] <jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
[01:48] <Treenaks> hey jdub
[01:48] <Treenaks> how are you today? :)
[01:48] <jdub> pretty hammered
[01:48] <jdub> jetlag catching up with me
[01:49] <jdub> not dodging timezones quickly enough :-)
[01:49] <HiddenWolf> maswan, it was 20kbs earlier
[01:49] <maswan> Znarl: how about we take us.releases until sbrath manages to find a non-crasching router or similar? ;)
[01:49] <Treenaks> jdub: luckily the Amsterdam<->London timezone difference is manageable ;)
[01:49] <Znarl> maswan : Sounds good.
[01:49] <\sh> well..this is boring...no traffic on -changes anymore...someone has to do something ;)
[01:50] <Treenaks> yes, let's create dapper :)
[01:51] <infinity> Oh, just let us have a long weekend, will you? :)
[01:51] <Treenaks> infinity: well, for this once then
[01:51] <HiddenWolf> \sh, nothing stops you from hacking up the next wonder of the known world. :)
[01:52] <mdke> jdub, morning? :p
[01:53] <\sh> HiddenWolf: I was thinking about Wubuntu...Ubuntu with Windowmaker, or gnusbuntu...ubuntu running emacs os...help would be fine ,-)
[01:53] <jordi> seb128: how does ubuntu handle the addition of newly created users to the "desirable" system groups like audio, plugdev, etc?
[01:53] <Nafallo> shouldn't be even better to have all CC.archive.ubuntu.com not go to the DC? ;-)
[01:53] <HiddenWolf> \sh, you'll get more fame starting blingbuntu, and pimp up E17. :)
[01:54] <Treenaks> \sh: wubuntu -> ubuntu with the win32 kernel?
[01:54] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: no, that'd be eubuntu
[01:54] <jordi> seb128: do you patch system-tools-backends?
[01:54] <seb128> jordi: with g-s-t? it's patched for that, why?
[01:54] <jordi> seb128: we're discussing this for lliurex.
[01:56] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks, it's marketing, people who use E17 want bling, so they get bling. :)
[01:56] <Treenaks> HiddenWolf: UBlingtu?
[01:56] <HiddenWolf> Treenaks, ugh
[01:57] <\sh> CUbuntu -> Ubuntu for Consoles running TurboVision 
[01:58] <\sh> bah no crack today anymore
[01:59] <fabbione> or i will slam all of you in a chrooted busybox on tmpfs!
[02:00] <fabbione> ;)
[02:01] <maswan> bubuntu - all busybox ubuntu?
[02:01] <jdub> maswan: sounds not so good when spoken :)
[02:01] <jdub> well
[02:01] <jdub> "not so good" doesn't mean "inaccurate"
[02:01] <jdub> ;-)
[02:02] <HiddenWolf> maswan, sounds like a make of diapers, really.
[02:02] <Nafallo> HiddenWolf: dude... usplash? :-)
[02:02] <HiddenWolf> Nafallo, don't get me started.
[02:03] <ogra> whats wrong ? 
[02:03] <mjg59> I had a dream about usplash
[02:03] <HiddenWolf> mjg59, go on vacation. :)
[02:04] <Nafallo> mjg59: oh? did you fix bugs, woke up and forgot what you did in your dream? :-)
[02:04] <mjg59> It had gained animation support
[02:04] <Nafallo> lol
[02:04] <HiddenWolf> mjg59, disturbing.
[02:05] <mjg59> Yes
[02:05] <HiddenWolf> mjg59, why not hack it up to display random sequences of your avi collection? :P
[02:06] <Nafallo> I rather have interactivity in it ;-)
[02:07] <Nafallo> for typing in passwords and such things :-)
[02:12] <pitti> Kamion: you can just open images with nautilus (archive-manager)
[02:12] <pitti> Kamion: oh, on a remote server? (little?)
[02:13] <jdub> pitti: ooh, we should write that pmount spec
[02:13] <pitti> jdub: right
[02:14] <mjg59> pointless?
[02:14] <Kamion> pitti: yes, remote
[02:14] <mjg59> Wow. Flight prices to Australasia around LCA are stupid.
[02:14] <pitti> Kamion: I only see libarchive-{tar,zip}-perl, is there something similar for isos?
[02:15] <Treenaks> jdub: like, pmounting smb shares?
[02:15] <Kamion> pitti: http://people.freebsd.org/~kientzle/libarchive/
[02:15] <pitti> we could as well do that with just readding the suid root bit to smbmount
[02:16] <pitti> Kamion: cool, thanks
[02:18] <jdub> Treenaks: yeah, and filesystem images (ext3, iso, etc)
[02:18] <infinity> pitti : Which we probably should do.
[02:18] <Treenaks> jdub: cool
[02:18] <infinity> pitti : I keep forgetting to have that argument until it's 3 days before release.
[02:19] <Treenaks> jdub: I was thinking about something like this yesterday.. more "cooperation" with other OSs, instead of just mostly ignoring them as we do now
[02:20] <Kamion> jdub: isn't that excessively dangerous?
[02:20] <Kamion> jdub: unless you had pmount scan for set-id bits in the filesystem first
[02:21] <jdub> Kamion: i have stupid ideas. pitti makes them sane and secure.
[02:21] <jdub> i like this system ;)
[02:21] <Kamion> some things it's *good* that you can't do ;-)
[02:21] <Kamion> loop-mounting ISOs is probably safe - I don't think there's a set-id equivalent there
[02:21] <pitti> Kamion: pmount mounts everything with nosuid,nodev
[02:22] <Kamion> ah
[02:22] <Kamion> ok, fair enough
[02:22] <pitti> Kamion: I was pretty paranoid about that :-)
[02:22] <Kamion> in this case I got screwed on little anyway, 'cos elmo's custom kernel doesn't have iso9660
[02:22] <pitti> so far I don't see a compelling reason  why pmount shouldn't mount images; I just didn't implement it yet
[02:22] <jdub> Kamion: ha ha ha ha
[02:23] <Kinnison> jdub: like you love the p in pool ?
[02:23] <pitti> jdub: initially it meant "policy"
[02:23] <jdub> i love the p in lunch
[02:23] <jdub> pitti: that's the p i love - what does it mean now?
[02:23] <jdub> pittimount? :)
[02:23] <pitti> jdub: I never defined it actually
[02:23] <Nafallo> paranoidmount :-)
[02:24] <pitti> jdub: oh, I did - pmount(1) says "policy mount"
[02:24] <jdub> pimp-my-mount
[02:24] <Treenaks> pittimount
[02:24] <jdub> Kamion: i sent my release management thoughts to the list
[02:25] <Nafallo> pitti: btw, I think I had an error about charset being deprecated when mounting a vfat. :-)
[02:25] <pitti> jdub: interestingly enough, there is also a "libpmount" that was introduced into Debian about the same time that I started with pmount - but it has nothing to do with pmount :-)
[02:25] <jdub> pitti: heh, funny
[02:25] <pitti> Nafallo: known, but I always ignore it - so what, I *want* UTF-8...
[02:25] <mjg59> Kamion: You coming down to London today?
[02:25] <Nafallo> pitti: the where a new flag... nls? :-)
[02:25] <Kamion> mjg59: no, going up to my parents this evening
[02:25] <Kamion> dad's in a concert
[02:26] <pitti> Nafallo: ah, I see; nice
[02:26] <pitti> Nafallo: will change this in bzr head
[02:26] <mjg59> Ah, ok
[02:26] <Kinnison> jdub: you know, you never did tell me which sodding pub we're going to
[02:26] <mjg59> Kinnison: It's on the wiki
[02:27] <pitti> Nafallo: this is quite messy - for vfat, it is just "utf8", for iso9660 "iocharset=utf8", and for ntfs "nls=utf8". yay consistency
[02:27] <siretart> grmpf. does hotplug support pcnet32 at all?
[02:27] <Nafallo> hehe, I wonder what I mounted to get the warning :-P
[02:27] <Kinnison> mjg59: aah
[02:28] <jdub> Kinnison: green man, it's on the wiki now
[02:28] <pitti> Nafallo: I'll read mount(1) in detail again, but iocharset just seems to work everywhere
[02:28] <jdub> Kinnison: could you tell relevant -uk lists?
[02:29] <Nafallo> pitti: oki. just noticed it on my logs, I'll see if I can find what caused the warning :-)
[02:29] <Kinnison> it so slow
[02:30] <mjg59> It's produced an ickle Google Map
[02:30] <Kinnison> yeah, google-local is a bit cruddy
[02:30] <Kinnison> jdub: what -uk lists?
[02:30] <Kinnison> jdub: I was asked by sabdfl not to parade it on debian-uk
[02:30] <Kinnison> jdub: and I'm not part of the loco or anything
[02:31] <jdub> oh
[02:31] <jdub> sabdfl: why was that?
[02:32] <sabdfl> jdub: we need to make more of an effort with the ubuntu community
[02:33] <sabdfl> past release parties have had very few ubuntu-specific people there
[02:33] <sabdfl> and have turned into mark-buys-debian-uk-beer-and-dinner
[02:33] <mjg59> (very nice dinner)
[02:34] <Nafallo> pitti: fwiw, I can't reproduce what I just reported ;-)
[02:34] <infinity> sabdfl : Hrm, we need a mark-buys-debian-melbourne-beer-and-dinner release party.
[02:34] <pitti> [20739.136463]  FAT: utf8 is not a recommended IO charset for FAT filesystems, filesystem will be case sensitive!
[02:34] <pitti> Nafallo: ^ that one?
[02:34] <Nafallo> yepp
[02:35] <Nafallo> or no
[02:35] <sabdfl> i'm open to suggestions but was trying to encourage a bit more effort to get the guys who really care about ubuntu together tonight
[02:35] <Nafallo> I had one that said io-charset was deprecated for nls
[02:35] <sabdfl> at some of the past events i've been a bit nervous to say "ubuntu"
[02:36] <dredg> what's wrong with google local?
[02:36] <ogra> sabdfl, just come to the next edubuntu release party... then you can change to mark-buys-candy-for-edubuntu-kids
[02:37] <dredg> ogra: good thinking! brainwash them while they're young... ;)
[02:37] <ogra> lol
[02:38] <ogra> dredg, its rather "show them the bright side and let them decide themselves" ;)
[02:38] <Nafallo> syslog.0:Oct 12 21:10:52 localhost kernel: [14323.780752]  NTFS-fs warning (device dm-2): parse_options(): Option iocharset is deprecated. Please use option nls=<charsetname> in the future.
[02:38] <Nafallo> pitti: ^
[02:38] <Nafallo> I didn't even know I had NTFS-stuff :-P
[02:38] <pitti> Nafallo: ah, ntfs - ENONTFSHERE
[02:38] <sabdfl> ogra: oh, the headlines
[02:38] <pitti> Nafallo: there is no mkfs.ntfs that I'm aware of
[02:38] <dredg> ogra: feh, now you're just splitting hairs
[02:38] <pitti> Nafallo: ok, I'll add it to the TODO
[02:39] <Nafallo> pitti: well, I don't have NTFS either :-P
[02:39] <ogra> dredg, yes, i have enough to do that still :)
[02:39] <Nafallo> so where is that coming from? :-P
[02:40] <HiddenWolf> sabdfl, I'm free tonight, but on the wrong side of the channel, sorry. :P
[02:40] <pitti> Nafallo: ah, you prolly mounted an ext2/3 drive
[02:40] <pitti> Nafallo: it tries all fs in succession
[02:40] <Nafallo> ah
[02:40] <pitti> Nafallo: and ext3 is probed after ntfs
[02:40] <dredg> it's being a tad stupid
[02:40] <sabdfl> HiddenWolf: it's been swum before, y'know
[02:40] <Nafallo> yea, that should be it. I think I saw it when I used my cryptostick ;-)
[02:41] <HiddenWolf> sabdfl, yeah, but you'd want one waiting on the other side with a blanket and tea, not an ubuntu-shirt and beer. :)
[02:42] <dredg> ah, i see what's wrong. i was using http://local/ which is not the same as http://local.google.com/
[02:43] <sabdfl> tea, blanket, beer, floor
[02:44] <HiddenWolf> sabdfl, I prefer boats even then. Specially with sails. :)
[02:44] <hyperactivecrond> err... is it just me or is the ubuntu site slower than usual when apt-get 'ing something?
[02:44] <dredg> hyperactivecrond: probably getting hammered by everyone updating
[02:44] <HiddenWolf> hyperactivecrond, breezy was released, site getting hammered,.
[02:45] <HiddenWolf> wiki is slow as can be.
[02:45] <hyperactivecrond> sweet it's been released
[02:45] <HiddenWolf> hyperactivecrond, you missed it?!
[02:45] <HiddenWolf> hyperactivecrond, shame on you. ;)
[02:46] <hyperactivecrond> i'm runnin in breezy prerelease, can i apt-get dist-upgrade?
[02:46] <hyperactivecrond> and go to straight breezy?
[02:46] <HiddenWolf> hyperactivecrond, yes, but the mirror is choked. :)
[02:46] <Nafallo> well, I still can't see a good reason everything CC.archive.ubuntu.com would go to archive.ubuntu.com?
[02:46] <Kamion> everything doesn't
[02:46] <hyperactivecrond> won't work
[02:46] <HiddenWolf> Nafallo, most of those xx.archive.u.c are redirects still. :(
[02:47] <hyperactivecrond> but oh well... i'll try later
[02:47] <Kamion> it's just there are only a few specific exceptions to the wildcard DNS
[02:47] <Nafallo> Kamion: right... everything except se, cz, fr and de ;-)
[02:47] <Kamion> sure
[02:47] <dredg> *cough* and ie
[02:47] <infinity> Is us.archive back again, or is it still broken?
[02:47] <Kamion> the installer relies on CC.archive.ubuntu.com existing though
[02:47] <infinity> (ie: still aimed at archive, cause the us mirror is unhappy)
[02:47] <Kamion> infinity: still aimed at archive
[02:47] <Nafallo> Kamion: so make all of europe use se. per default?
[02:47] <Nafallo> Kamion: you get the idea...
[02:48] <dredg> Nafallo: by all means contact mirror maintainers in various countries and ask them to be local .archive.u.c?
[02:48] <Kamion> Nafallo: talk to admin about that ...
[02:48] <infinity> All of europe, except uk, surely. :)
[02:48] <Kamion> but yeah, gb == archive please ;)
[02:48] <HiddenWolf> Or rather, start writing to ISP's
[02:49] <Nafallo> dredg: is that the problem we're discussing? :-)
[02:49] <Nafallo> dredg: or is that _everything_ falls back on archive... ;-)
[02:49] <Nafallo> Kamion: elmo?
[02:50] <Znarl> I maintain the mirrors.
[02:50] <dredg> Nafallo: you can be a mirror without being cc.a.u.c
[02:50] <Nafallo> dredg: yes, and the installer defaults to a.u.c instead of the most local server :-)
[02:50] <Kamion> Nafallo: no it doesn't, it defaults to CC.a.u.c
[02:50] <dredg> not in my experience
[02:50] <Nafallo> Znarl: follow the discussion? :-)
[02:51] <Kamion> Nafallo: remember that anything that's CC.a.u.c gets masses of traffic without people even realising it
[02:51] <Nafallo> well I meant CC.a.u.c defaults to a.u.c
[02:51] <Nafallo> that's what I know. and that's why not every single unassigned CC should go to a.u.c
[02:52] <Kamion> every single unassigned CC *must* go to a.u.c
[02:52] <Nafallo> why?
[02:52] <dredg> erm, what?
[02:52] <Kamion> there should be fewer unassigned CCs, but there *must* be a sensible default
[02:52] <Kamion> and ultimately, the buck stops with a.u.c
[02:52] <Nafallo> why can't everything unassigned in europa go to se.a.u.c?
[02:52] <Kamion> that would be an assignment
[02:52] <Kamion> it would no longer be unassigned
[02:53] <dredg> it's also rude to force people onto a mirror
[02:53] <HiddenWolf> unassigned + europe IP = se.u.c ?
[02:53] <dholbach> mdke: do the ubuntu-docs guys have a launchpad team?
[02:53] <infinity> If the mirror is known-good, it's hardly "forcing" anything.
[02:53] <Nafallo> so why can't ever again change A records?
[02:53] <Nafallo> s/why/we/
[02:53] <dredg> depends on the mirror admin, doesn't it?
[02:53] <Kamion> Nafallo: of course we can
[02:54] <Kamion> the whole reason we use CC.a.u.c is for future flexibility
[02:54] <infinity> dredg : Trust me on this one, maswan (the admin for se.archive) WANTS traffic. :)
[02:55] <Nafallo> we still needs a sensible default now... we can't just swamp the most up-to-date mirror for every developer? :-)
[02:55] <dredg> infinity: heanet WANT traffic too, but forcing someone to a mirror you're not responsible for is not a sane thing to do
[02:55] <dredg> and besides, ip -> location is unreliable at best
[02:55] <Nafallo> or atleast us motus that want to prepare stuff for dapper...
[02:55] <Znarl> Nafallo : Yes, I'm following.
[02:55] <Kamion> Nafallo: you're entirely free to pick the mirror of your choice. MOTUs surely to goodness have the wit to do that :)
[02:55] <Nafallo> dredg: we could ask mirroradmins? some of them are on this channel ;-)
[02:56] <dredg> Nafallo: which is what i already suggested
[02:56] <Kamion> CC.archive.ubuntu.com is for users far more than it's for developers
[02:56] <Nafallo> Kamion: well, developing with sync-delays sucks :-P
[02:56] <Kamion> dredg: so that's why DNS changes are made with the consent of mirror admins
[02:56] <dredg> cf. <dredg> Nafallo: by all means contact mirror maintainers in various countries and ask them to be local .archive.u.c?
[02:56] <Nafallo> dredg: I was talking about being fallback for a continent... ;-)
[02:57] <Kamion> Nafallo: can you ease up a bit?
[02:57] <Kamion> you've made your point, I think :)
[02:57] <dredg> Kamion: well, yeah. it's never good to wake up one morning and find you're suddenly serving half of europe because someone else decided it was a good idea
[02:57] <Nafallo> Kamion: sure. I just want to see this point make a change :-)
[02:58] <dredg> Nafallo: so contact some mirrors and ask them would they object to being cc.archive.ubuntu.com
[02:58] <Znarl> A lot of mirrors contact us and request CC.archive pointed at them.
[02:59] <dredg> Nafallo: myself and diamond asked heanet would they do it. they're now ie.archive.u.c
[02:59] <Znarl> Mirrors help most countries that have poor international bandwidth by good national bandwidth.
[03:00] <Nafallo> dredg: ofcourse, but my point now is unassigned stuff shouldn't swamp the datacenter till we get those local mirrors :-/.
[03:00] <Znarl> Such as Thailand, Japan, China, etc.
[03:01] <Nafallo> Znarl: agreed. but we still shouldn't send all the unassigned world to a.u.c ;-). better to find good mirrors as near as possible as fallbacks.
[03:01] <dredg> this is getting boring real fast.
[03:01] <Nafallo> as said, I hope I made my point...
[03:02] <maswan> Znarl: do you have an estimate on how much of the DC traffic is isos vs packages?
[03:02] <Znarl> maswan : No.
[03:02] <doko> seb128, pitti: what is lp #2134 ? looks like crap ...
[03:02] <maswan> hmm.. "Need to get 812MB of archives.", upgrades aren't without bandwidth use either, I guess. :)
[03:04] <Kamion> doko: it's the standard problem with people not having universe/security in sources.list
[03:04] <pitti> right
[03:04] <infinity> Which isn't a bug in the least.
[03:05] <Kamion> doko: so when packages have an = ${Source-Version} dependency crossing the main/universe boundary and the source package gets a security update, the version in universe they're seeing is out of date
[03:05] <Kamion> infinity: it *was* a bug in base-config, but I fixed it
[03:05] <doko> Kamion: ohh, but they did have the packages installed before
[03:05] <infinity> Kamion : Ahh.
[03:05] <Kamion> doko: right
[03:05] <Kamion> however people who installed with warty and upgraded may still have the problem
[03:05] <infinity> Still, tell the user to fix his sources.list, and you're on your merry way.
[03:05] <Kamion> there's not a lot we can do in general
[03:05] <pitti> doko: yes, from hoary, but not hoary-security
[03:06] <Kamion> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3599, fixed in base-config 2.58ubuntu5
[03:06] <Kamion> although since universe is disabled by default, people might still not remember to uncomment the security lines for universe when they uncomment the other lines for universe
[03:06] <Kamion> again, not a lot we can do about that
[03:08] <maswan> Kamion: make a small bit about it in the upgrade notes?
[03:08] <maswan> Kamion: or perhaps that was already done in the hoary upgrade notes?
[03:08] <Nafallo> does people read those? :-)
[03:09] <maswan> "see the release notes for breezy" is better than "see bug #3599" when explaining
[03:09] <Kamion> I think we did, although I don't remember
[03:09] <Nafallo> indeed
[03:10] <Nafallo> maybe we could some something like "you've downloaded the packagelist for universe, maybe you want to turn on universe security to?"
[03:10] <maswan> Kamion: from a quick reading, it doesn't seem to be there.
[03:12] <bddebian> Good morning oh Gods of Ubuntu
[03:12] <pitti> Hi bddebian 
[03:12] <bddebian> Hi pitti
[03:12] <dholbach> :)
[03:13] <bddebian> Heya Daniel
[03:16] <bddebian> Wow, everyone taking it easy after all that work? :-)
[03:18] <highvoltage> bddebian: apparently, some people are more Godly than others ;)
[03:18] <pitti> bddebian: no 12+ hour shift today, private live needs some attention, too :-)
[03:22] <bddebian> pitti: Nahh ;-)
[03:22] <bddebian> highvoltage: Oh yeah? :-)
[03:22] <highvoltage> bddebian: yep, according to the BddebianIsAGod wikipage :)
[03:24] <bddebian> Well Stephan is just sick.  I'm a moron, just ask infinity, lamont, mdz, elmo, etc.  Or even pitti.  Ask him about me trying to package something.. :-)
[03:32] <Kamion> oh dear, libarchive has a 64-bit-cleanliness bug that manifests while trying to extract DVDs
[03:42] <jdub> JaneW: you are totally dominating the flickr ubuntu tag queue! :)
[03:42] <jdub> s/queue/feed/
[03:43] <bddebian> Heh
[03:44] <JaneW> jdub: hehe (sorry) ;)
[03:44] <jdub> nono, it's good :-)
[03:44] <JaneW> jdub: just can believe edubuntu finally happened!
[03:44] <jdub> :-) :-) :-)
[03:45] <Treenaks> http://flickr.com/photos/13916877@N00/52389874/in/photostream/ -> cool
[03:45] <JaneW> jdub: where is it tho? Saw it yesterday but today I see not flikr feed ?
[03:45] <jdub> JaneW: that block shows random cool stuff
[03:45] <jdub> JaneW: just reaload a few times :)
[03:45] <Treenaks> jdub: I want a pony!
[03:45] <maswan> JaneW: neat-looking cake
[03:46] <JaneW> jdub: oic, I noticed it changed, but wasn't getting photos I'll try again...
[03:46] <JaneW> maswan: thanks :)
[03:46] <JaneW> jdub: only problem is now I have to censor the other pics I upload ;)
[03:46] <bddebian> JaneW: What are you teaching those children?  Giving everyone the finger?? ;-)
[03:46] <JaneW> case in point ^^^
[03:47] <jdub> JaneW: this feed only gets 'ubuntu' tagged ones ;)
[03:47] <pitti> infinity: you saw the warty-security php ftbfs?
[03:47] <infinity> pitti : D'oh, need to clean those chroots.
[03:48] <JaneW> bddebian: You referring to http://www.flickr.com/photos/13916877@N00/48973688/? or ^^^
[03:48] <infinity> pitti : Stupid shtool in OTHER packages not cleaning up after itself.
[03:49] <bddebian> JaneW: That one :-)
[03:50] <bddebian> JaneW: Very cute kids btw :-)
[03:50] <JaneW> bddebian: it was done in innocence honestly ;)
[03:50] <JaneW> bddebian: thanks
[03:52] <doko> jdub: please add a baking BOF for UBZ with JaneW as the lead ;-)
[03:52] <infinity> pitti : All better.
[03:53] <bddebian> doko: :-)
[03:53] <JaneW> doko: LOL - get me access to the kitchen ;)
[03:53] <doko> JaneW: no escape possible, I'll ask jbailey :-)
[03:53] <JaneW> :)
[03:53] <maswan> Making "enough cake for everybody" can be rather tiring, but people do seem to like it. :)
[03:54] <Lathiat> that bfo woudl ahve to start a week early :)
[03:54] <ogra> Lathiat, nope, the distro team can bake for the launchpad team...
[03:54] <ogra> we just have to flip the schedule next time so they can do the same for us
[03:55] <maswan> Lathiat: an aftersoon should be plenty of time, unless you want to do something really fancy
[04:00] <jdub> doko: haha
[04:02] <jbailey> ogra: OOoo..  I can make a decent vegan cake ;)
[04:02] <ogra> :)
[04:03] <jdub> jbailey: YAY! free range grain fed vegan cake!!!
[04:03] <jbailey> Free range.
[04:03] <jbailey> ..
[04:03] <jbailey> Is that like apie throwing contest? =)
[04:03] <jbailey> I could be up for that at UBZ.
[04:03] <bddebian> jbailey: BTW, ignore anything ajmitch tells you at UBZ ;-P
[04:04] <spacey_ki> :] 
[04:05] <jbailey> bddebian: Hmm
[04:05] <jbailey> bddebian: It might be hard to sign his key then...
[04:05] <bddebian> jbailey: I mean anything he says about me. ;-)
[04:05] <jbailey> bddebian: Oh? =)
[04:06] <Kamion> ah, fixed libarchive
[04:06] <nomed> hi all
[04:06] <infinity> pitti : All builds are in.
[04:06] <jbailey> bddebian: Does it involve goats?
[04:06] <nomed> is there a chan for xubuntu ?
[04:07] <bddebian> Hello nomed
[04:07] <bddebian> jbailey: Heh, no, nothing that exciting. :-)  He will probably just chastise you for pointing me at the MOTUs :-)
[04:07] <JaneW> jbailey: arrrgh Indian Dinner (Goat curry!)
[04:07] <bddebian> eww
[04:07] <nomed> i've had some problems using xine based players .. installing breezy from "debootstrap"
[04:08] <nomed> that didn't happened from install cd
[04:08] <jbailey> JaneW: I've never tried a meat curry.  I didn't discover indian until I went veggie.
[04:08] <nomed> i would try to figure out what's the problem
[04:10] <jbailey> bddebian: And why would he do that?
[04:10] <bddebian> jbailey: Because I'm a PITA? :-)
[04:11] <jbailey> Unhuh, sure.  And that's why they've got the "Barry is a God" page on the wiki? =)
[04:11] <dieman> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26935 <-- "Dumber people can run Linux"
[04:11] <dieman> review of ubuntu on theinq
[04:12] <Diziet> We seem to fail to provide our users with any pointyclicky way to back up their data.
[04:12] <dieman> one of my friends setup a backup system that was fairly simple i think
[04:13] <infinity> Diziet : That was worked on as a Summer of Code project, and I hope to coax my stdent into polishing up his submission for dapper.
[04:13] <jbailey> Backup solutions under Linux tend to suck at the best of times.
[04:13] <dieman> yeah, hes using backuppc
[04:13] <dieman> (backuppc.sf.net)
[04:14] <infinity> Diziet : Try 'sbackup' and file a zillion bugs on it in the Debian BTS for things you find less than satisfactory.
[04:14] <infinity> Diziet : He's rather responsive.
[04:14] <Diziet> backuppc> `BackupPC is a high-performance, enterprise-grade system for backing up Linux and WinXX PCs and laptops to a server's disk' so not what individual users probably need then.
[04:14] <dieman> yeah, sounds like overkill 
[04:14] <dieman> still
[04:15] <bddebian> jbailey: That's just crackful \sh :-)
[04:15] <jbailey> Mmm.  crack
[04:15] <dieman> "No client-side software is needed."
[04:15] <dieman> thats nice
[04:15] <Diziet> No, not overkill, inapplicable.  What's a user to do if they have one home PC and no server to back up to ?
[04:15] <dieman> it can backup the local machine, too.
[04:15] <Diziet> To another server ?
[04:15] <Diziet> sbackup> Reading now.
[04:15] <mjg59> http://www.hilmix-shop.de/lshop,showdetail,30454,d,1129065715-30673,1106739778,uc374ge-linux,,Tshowrub--1106739778,.htm
[04:16] <mjg59> Rocking
[04:16] <dieman> still, the inerface doesn't look simple
[04:17] <dieman> damn, i might setup this ting at work
[04:17] <dieman> thing, rather
[04:18] <Diziet> Backup with free software is fine if you're like me.  Tape drive, central backup server, tapes, scripts to glue it all together, etc.
[04:19] <Diziet> Aww, how cute.  I've just seen the icon Nautilus gives to corefiles.  Shiny bombs.
[04:19] <Diziet> They are, of course, corefiles from Nautilus.
[04:19] <infinity> mjg59 : Dude, it lists a glxgears score.
[04:20] <infinity> mjg59 : Also, that's basically identical to the hardware I'm using that refuses to suspend-to-disk. :/
[04:20] <mjg59> Well, other than that
[04:20] <infinity> mjg59 : I need to reinstall and see if it's something really wonky going on here.
[04:20] <infinity> (I only note that because they claim it can suspend-to-disk)
[04:23] <Diziet> sbackup> Hmm.  If I'm not mistaken this program doesn't seem to be capable of doing what I would think of as a backup.
[04:23] <Diziet> That is, copying the data OFF YOUR COMPUTER.
[04:24] <infinity> Diziet : Getting it onto CDs is the ultimate goal for that, I believe.
[04:25] <Diziet> The user might have removeable USB drives or even removeable IDE drives or some such.
[04:25] <infinity> Diziet : Currently, it allows you to slap it on anything gnome-vfs can get to (which includes removable media), and sftp/ssh/ftp.
[04:26] <Diziet> Also, it's clearly not finished.
[04:26] <infinity> But yes, clearly not finished.  Hence why I said "file a bunch of bugs"
[04:26] <Diziet> `The backup is running in the background; its pid is 12345.   [X]  Close'
[04:26] <infinity> It's working.  It's just not polished.
[04:26] <Diziet> The default filenames aren't 8.3 so it won't work with a FAT removeable.
[04:27] <Diziet> And it should be like update-manager and prompt you to back up rather than hoping you'll do it.
[04:28] <infinity> Your pedantry is exactly what's needed to get Aigars to polish this up to something shiny.
[04:29] <Diziet> infinity: Thank you for your vote of confidence.  I'm looking at the bug reports now.
[04:30] <Diziet> So should I file my bugs in the Debian BTS despite the fact that all of my tests etc. are on Ubuntu ?
[04:30] <Diziet> Just to check, so I don't tread on anyone's toes.
[04:33] <infinity> Diziet : Well, if they get filed in Ubuntu, we'll just have to forward them upstream anyway, so just send them there to start with. :)
[04:34] <jbailey> Diziet: It really depends on the maintainer.
[04:34] <infinity> Diziet : Besides, the upstream maintainer is an Ubuntu user, so he won't mind in the least.
[04:34] <Diziet> jbailey: Yes, I know, that's why I'm asking in this specific case.
[04:34] <Diziet> infinity: Right, thanks.
[04:34] <infinity> (He wrote this as a participant in Google's Summer of Code under Ubuntu's guidance)
[04:35] <Diziet> I just wanted to double-check because there seems to be plenty of room for misunderstanding.
[04:35] <Diziet> And errors in these kinds of areas tend to cause offence.
[04:35] <infinity> For future reference, anything I maintain in Ubuntu/Debian, I prefer the bug reports in the Debian BTS, unless it's Ubuntu-specific.
[04:35] <dholbach> he could be added as a default-qa-contact in bugzilla
[04:35] <infinity> Diziet : Here's his spec: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SimpleBackupSolution
[04:35] <Diziet> infinity: Ta.
[04:36] <infinity> dholbach : s/bugzilla/Malone/ .. sbackup is in universe currently, waiting on more polish before I try to get it in the desktop.
[04:36] <infinity> dholbach : It definitely wasn't ready for breezy, IMO, but has potential.
[04:36] <dholbach> yeah
[04:37] <infinity> Diziet : Oh, and try not to file a bug titled "Pls rewrite in C, kthxbye", as much as that would be fun. :)
[04:38] <ikmo> Hi all, is there any of the art team in here please?
[04:38] <infinity> Python seems an appropriate hammer for this nail anyway, though he needs to profile his code something fierce.
[04:39] <jbailey> infinity: You need to write something that impots your Bugzilla bugs into the BTS ;)
[04:41] <infinity> Yeah... I'll call it.. An MUA.
[04:41] <infinity> It'll revolutionise the software world.
[04:43] <infinity> Every time I hit "reply" on a bugzilla email and start typing, I scream 5 seconds later when I remember I can't do that.
[04:43] <infinity> Which leads me to wondering if bradb has finished writing a debbugs-like mail interface for Malone.
[04:43] <infinity> I believe we had that on our feature list for main adoption. :)
[04:44] <infinity> (originally... I'm sure it got scrapped as a "nice-to-have, 2.0 feature" later)
[04:45] <infinity> great for comparing installed package lists.
[04:45] <Kamion> I want its opposite, so that rather than having to remember comm -13 you can say notcomm -2
[04:45] <Kamion> or something like that
[04:46] <Kamion> $ for x in `comm -13 dvd-i386.list dvd-powerpc.list`; do cp -a dvd-powerpc/$x dvd-i386/$x; done
[04:51] <mjg59> Any Germans around?
[04:51] <pitti> mjg59: me
[04:51] <ogra> mjg59, nope
[04:51] <mjg59> pitti: Have you ever heard of hilmix?
[04:51] <pitti> mjg59: that does not ring anything
[04:52] <mjg59> Ah, ok
[04:52] <mjg59> Just wondering how well known these people are...
[04:52] <ogra> mjg59, nope, never heard of it...
[04:52] <ogra> what is it ? 
[04:52] <mjg59> A company selling Breezy Thinkpads
[04:53] <ogra> ah, they ship IBM laptops
[04:53] <Robot101> wow
[04:53] <Robot101> do they have no windows tax?
[04:54] <ogra> they claim to be SuSE business member on their page, no trace of ubuntu
[04:54] <mjg59> ogra: hilmix-shop.de
[04:55] <ogra> yes, thats where i looked
[04:56] <mjg59> ogra: Under the "linux" section
[04:56] <ogra> heh...
[04:57] <mjg59> Robot101: The Linux one seems to be, uhm, 700 Euros cheaper.
[04:57] <mjg59> !
[04:57] <ogra> on the top it says "soon to come" and the site is to long to show the laptop at the bottom
[04:57] <ogra> well hidden :)
[04:57] <mjg59> Compare http://www.hilmix-shop.de/lshop,showdetail,11223,d,1129301701-11237,1106739778,uc374ge-linux,,Tshowrub--1106739778,.htm and http://www.hilmix-shop.de/lshop,showdetail,11223,d,1129301763-11427,1105901351.1106566918.1106834035.1106843071,uc374ge,,Tshowrub--1105901351.1106566918.1106834035.1106843071,.htm
[04:59] <Robot101> robtaylor: here
[04:59] <Diziet> Blimey, what a huge price difference.  They say `special price' - is that some kind of novelty discount marketing thing that we couldn't expect to persist ?
[05:00] <mjg59> Diziet: They both say "special price" - I'm not sure why
[05:00] <ogra> mjg59, dont show that page to daniels :) 
[05:00] <Diziet> Oh, so they do.  Maybe it's just to make you think they're cheap.
[05:00] <ogra> glxgears:
[05:00] <ogra> 650.000 fps
[05:00] <ogra> (from the feature list)
[05:02] <Diziet> mjg59's URLs: http://tinyurl.com/acwnh and http://tinyurl.com/cg9z7.
[05:02] <mjg59> ogra: Yeah
[05:02] <sivang> rehi all
[05:12] <sivang> pitti: where is ogra living these days? is he not in .de anymore ? :)
[05:13] <pitti> sivang: he is in .de, don't worry :)
[05:13] <sivang> pitti: he's living in a region called eifel right? 
[05:14] <pitti> sivang: yes
[05:18] <mpt> infinity: Malone has had an e-mail interface for months now
[05:18] <infinity> mpt : Does it work?
[05:19] <mpt> People are using it
[05:19] <mpt> so yeah, it seems to
[05:19] <infinity> mpt : (no, I've never tried it, as I had no idea there was one, I just click the link the mails sent to me)
[05:19] <infinity> Is it documented?
[05:21] <Lathiat> yeh i foudn some yesterday
[05:22] <mpt> infinity: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceUserDoc
[05:24] <mxpxpod> pitti: ping
[05:25] <pitti> Hi mxpxpod 
[05:25] <sivang> pitti: anyway, do you want to start specing the BOF on CupsDbusIntegration sometime? I will be available most of this week, also working on some ideas of my own (SetupSnapshots) 
[05:25] <infinity> Ouch.  That is not an intuitive interface.  And a lot of typing. :/
[05:26] <infinity> Oh well.  I guess asking for something that worked like debbugs was too much.
[05:26] <mxpxpod> pitti: so, I still have no clue about that corrupt double linked list
[05:27] <mpt> infinity: Where is the debbugs e-mail interface documented?
[05:28] <pitti> sivang: can you please ping me about it next week?
[05:28] <Kamion> mpt: there are already links to the debbugs documentation from various Malone specifications
[05:28] <Kamion> e.g. https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterface
[05:28] <pitti> mpt: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/server-control
[05:29] <infinity> http://www.debian.org/Bugs/ -- specifically the two "Developers' information" links.
[05:30] <sivang> pitti: ofcourse, I understand that you are still busy  with security? 
[05:30] <pitti> sivang: I want to do some private stuff this evening
[05:30] <pitti> sivang: RL needs some attention after the last week :-)
[05:31] <sivang> pitti: RL  ? :-)
[05:31] <pitti> sivang: real life
[05:31] <infinity> Woo, the two archive.ubuntu.com machines are out of sync.
[05:32] <sivang> pitti: ah sure! I didn't think otherwise, nor am I in rush, whatever we don't finish before UBZ I'm sure we can find time over UBZ
[05:32] <sivang> pitti: have fun!
[05:33] <sivang> infinity: lol
[05:34] <infinity> Oh, s/two/four/... When did we get two new archive.u.c frontends?
[05:34] <infinity> No doubt one (or both) of the new ones is what's out of sync.
[05:34] <apokryphos> out of interest, are there any stats on bandwidth usage/torrent-activity so far? 
[05:35] <sivang> mvo: ping, around ?
[05:39] <mxpxpod> pitti: how do I get a tree of dependencies for packages that are installed?
[05:40] <mvo> sivang: pong
[05:42] <pitti> mxpxpod: apt-get dotty?
[05:43] <pitti> mxpxpod: erm, apt-cache dotty
[05:43] <sivang> mvo: any news from other users about those gnome-terminal crashes?
[05:44] <mvo> sivang: no, it dosn't happen with the revert lpi change and I haven't looked closer again yet
[05:44] <mxpxpod> pitti: thanks
[05:46] <sivang> hmm, so are we now using only malone with dapper starts?
[05:50] <Kamion> -rw-rw-r--  1 cjwatson warthogs 5079379968 Oct 14 16:48 ubuntu-5.10-dvd-i386-powerpc.iso
[05:51] <Kamion> sigh, over the DVD+RW limit
[05:51] <pitti> ouch
[05:51] <Diziet> *laugh*  Oh dear, we're outdoing ourselves.
[05:51] <pitti> hoary's was 2.8G
[05:51] <Kamion> note that this is i386+powerpc, not just one architecture
[05:52] <Kamion> as the filename should indicate :-)
[05:52] <pitti> ah, ok
[05:52] <Kamion> there's a saving of about 1GB from common .debs
[05:52] <sivang> mvo: what do you think about http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14472 ? Maybe that's worth discussing over UBZ , are you interested in possibly specing this as a one click interface to nationalizing Ubuntu installations? (I think it has potential)
[05:52] <mpt> thanks pitti, Kamion
[05:52] <Kamion> I can make it fit easily by stripping out the powerpc live filesystem, though.
[05:54] <zyga> sivang: I second that
[05:55] <sivang> zyga: I just thinkg mvo's language-selector couldn't be more suitable to catch a ride on, and I get these demand from my LoCo community memebrs all the time  :)
[05:57] <mvo> sivang: probably, yes. the suggestion came a bit too late for breezy but it's worth considering for dapper. patches are welcome of course :)
[05:58] <zyga> sivang, mvo: maybe a less textual interface (after all - you are running this to get the right language in the first place) would be better too
[05:58] <zyga> like flags or world map with several zoom levels (like the timezone applet)
[05:58] <zyga> but flags are kind of messy when it comes to places like taiwan or tibet :/
[05:59] <Kamion> flags and world maps are dangerous
[05:59] <Kamion> developers have been imprisoned for that
[05:59] <zyga> Kamion: yes :/
[05:59] <Kamion> (seriously)
[05:59] <mvo> zyga: at UBU I suggested a map, but it was considered polictically problemeatic
[05:59] <zyga> mvo: how about a map without the boundaries?
[05:59] <Kamion> maps without borders (only city locations) aren't too bad
[05:59] <Kamion> you have to stay well clear of borders though
[06:00] <zyga> Kamion: maybe like this
[06:00] <zyga> you click on a place
[06:00] <zyga> and the GUI pops up 5 nearest capital cities
[06:00] <zyga> asking which one you associate with
[06:00] <zyga> that could work
[06:00] <Kamion> is Taipei a capital city?
[06:00] <infinity> I'm not sure how important this is, since the user (or an OEM) already had to install the system to this point, and presumably in a language that the user understands a little bit.
[06:01] <zyga> infinity: how about auto starting this on first login
[06:01] <minghua> Kamion: well you can always put both capitals and non-capitals on the map
[06:01] <zyga> that would be easy and usefull
[06:01] <Kamion> for languages, surely it's easier to just list the language name in its own language
[06:01] <infinity> Kamion : Exactly, as the installer already does.
[06:01] <infinity> No reason why the language selector can't too.
[06:01] <Kamion> languages don't have a good correspondence to countries in many cases anyway
[06:01] <zyga> true, the installer does this already
[06:03] <zyga> did anyone think about something speciall to happen on first login anyway?
[06:04] <infinity> mvo : We can yank the English -> Native language mappings from d-i and use that with a nice UTF-8 font in Language Selector, surely?
[06:04] <infinity> (or maybe a few fonts, if we don't have one with all the right glyphs)
[06:04] <sivang> mvo: Just let a user choose a language, let politicians deal with maps :) But after he choose a lanugage, the selector installes the required lang pack or whatever, asks if he wants nationalized menus, and autoconfigures (maybe this can be done in prebuilt gnome kbd selectors packages per each language) 
[06:04] <infinity> There must be one font with enough glyphs to support printing all the language NAMES, though, even if they're not generally useful fonts. :)
[06:05] <sivang> mvo: gnome kbd selector with some sane shift group behaviro
[06:05] <sivang> does anybody get the OSDL survey? I don't really get their intention..
[06:05] <infinity> zyga : First login popups are dicussed every 2 days, when someone else decides there's something we MUST show new users, which is exactly why we don't have one.  If we did, it would have 400 things in it, and be useless and annoying.
[06:06] <zyga> infinity: maybe an installer option for OEM stuff that allows to autorun a tutorial or guide
[06:06] <zyga> then 1) it's not mandatory 2) it's usefull
[06:07] <infinity> Allowing OEMs to force irritation on THEIR users is always an option, I suppose, but the Ubuntu default install will probabl never do it.
[06:07] <sivang> infinity: they should probably be limited to (1) register against the distro's supportive infrastructure (which takes care of identification) , (2) nationalization.
[06:07] <zyga> infinity: default install probably doesn't need it
[06:07] <zyga> infinity: if someone is installing ubuntu [s] he probably already knows enough
[06:08] <mvo> infinity: I except so, yes
[06:08] <mvo> s/except/expect/
[06:09] <sivang> it's just that I've seen already a couple of "nationalized" derivaties that all they do is exactly that, I am thinking to streamline this and standartize through a one-click to have Ubuntu localized to your favorite language.
[06:10] <infinity> I do like the idea of having it automagically configure keyboard stuff for you.  Though we need a sane way to turn that behaviour off again, if it's not what you want.
[06:10] <mvo> sivang: the only problem I can see is how language-selector (runing as root) can do stuff in the users session. OTOH, I would like to do a proper split anyway so that only the backends runs as root ...
[06:10] <infinity> But this is pretty much what Windows does, and I do find it useful on my girlfriend's English+Japanese+French desktop.
[06:11] <infinity> I also need to play with Japanese input in the next week, and make sure we have something sane working for dapper.  It still seems a bit of a mess in breezy.
[06:11] <minghua> what if some language requires additional packages?
[06:11] <infinity> I'll never get my girlfriend to switch without getting that sort of thing more friendly.
[06:11] <minghua> like CJK, they likely will need input methods instead of just keyboard mappings
[06:12] <infinity> minghua : Then the l-s backend installs the packages, while the l-s frontend configures your session.  That's the point of mvo splitting it.
[06:12] <sivang> mvo: ah , so it would be able to modify only root's gnome kbd settings and not those of the user ?
[06:12] <infinity> Yes, they'll want scim and such.
[06:13] <infinity> mvo : Looks like the split would be a Good Thing to do as soon as you find a round tuit. :)
[06:13] <minghua> infinity: if we can achieve that, it would be really nice
[06:13] <infinity> Agreed.
[06:13] <mvo> sivang: yes, that's the problem currently
[06:13] <infinity> minghua : Which CJK language(s) do you use?
[06:13] <minghua> infinity: Chinese (zh_CN)
[06:13] <infinity> minghua : I can use/test Japanese, but have no one to attempt any others.
[06:13] <infinity> minghua : Perfect.
[06:14] <mvo> infinity: I'm currently pondering how to do it cleanly
[06:14] <infinity> minghua : I'll try to remember your IRC nick when I start fiddling with input method automation.
[06:14] <infinity> minghua : Ahh, that'll make it easier to remember who you are. ;)
[06:14] <hunger> ls -alF
[06:14] <hunger> aehm... sorry for that...
[06:14] <sivang> mvo: I see, what's the backend written in / using ? python-apt ?
[06:15] <minghua> infinity: sure, I would be really happy to get involved in such a project
[06:15] <minghua> I can do the package selection/classification and testing part, but I don't know much about coding
[06:15] <infinity> minghua : I've only played with CJK input methods once, about a month ago, and decided they were a terrible mess, and no one but a complete nerd/geek would ever be able to configure them.  So, we definitely need to do something. :)
[06:16] <minghua> infinity: yeah, I'm afraid so.  Using CJK in ubuntu is currently quite painful
[06:16] <mdke> jdub, if you're still around before going to GLlug, I'd love it if I could blog about the new italian website on planet, please add me!
[06:16] <infinity> minghua : Well, it's also something I'm reasonably passionate about fixing, so here's hoping I find some time in dapper.
[06:17] <minghua> infinity: Great.  Now I'm working on getting scim stuff sorted out in Debian, once that is finished I'll take a more serious look in dapper development
[06:18] <minghua> infinity: maybe writing a summary about input methods and send to mailing list or something
[06:18] <infinity> minghua : Any input (pun possibly intended) you can provide on the topic will be helpful.
[06:19] <sivang> infinity: LOL
[06:19] <infinity> minghua : As I said, I can only really test Japanese, and I know that input methods of choice seem to vary wildly according to the target language, etc.
[06:19] <sivang> mvo: anyway, if you run a BOF I'm interested in providing all the help that I can give. (if I start a spec suggestion, I'll email you)
[06:20] <minghua> Oh by the way, as we are talking about fonts for displaying language names, d-i is having the same problem with their gtk frontend, and they use like 10 vector fonts: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2005/10/msg00381.html
[06:20] <mvo> sivang: thanks
[06:21] <jdub> mdke: i'll get elmo to update it
[06:21] <jdub> update from the baz branch
[06:21] <mdke> jdub, he says he can't do it
[06:21] <mdke> jdub, only you can!
[06:21] <minghua> infinity: yes, the root of the problem, is that there are many input methods even in a single language
[06:21] <jdub> i change the source
[06:21] <jdub> he updates the installation
[06:21] <jdub> we're fixing this
[06:21] <mdke> jdub, ah awesome merci
[06:22] <minghua> infinity: so for each input methods there is likely going to be a separate program
[06:22] <infinity> minghua : Right, but unlike Debian, Ubuntu isn't as much about choice as it is about picking sane defaults, so we need to try to figure out what's the "best" for each language (where "best" means "doesn't segfault all the time", "easy interface", whatever)
[06:23] <minghua> infinity: no, that's not really possible, as one user may only know one input method of his/her language
[06:23] <infinity> Hrm.  Well, we'll have to discuss and play a bit, I suspect.
[06:23] <minghua> infinity: there are programs that covers quite a few input methods, like scim and uim
[06:24] <infinity> Right.
[06:24] <infinity> Which is what we need.  To pull everything under one roof, and try to give it a consistent interface.
[06:24] <minghua> infinity: but still some users find the input method in it inferior, and prefer their own program
[06:24] <minghua> infinity: yeah, I think that's the way to go
[06:24] <infinity> Again, I'm reminded of the Windows input methods, which may be drastically different (there are 3 or 4 for Japanese) but are all configured form the same place, activated from the same toolbar, etc.
[06:25] <infinity> users who prefer other things are too advanced to be my target audience.  They can go find and install other stuff from universe if they prefer it.
[06:25] <infinity> We need "sane defaults" for the average user.
[06:25] <minghua> infinity: and that's the reason I think I need to write a summary, so that other developers who don't use CJK can understand the situation
[06:31] <Yagisan> infinity, minghua - where would one find the info to setup CJK on breezy ?
[06:31] <trulux> morning fellows
[06:34] <minghua> Yagisan: I think the unofficial guide has something for hoary, and it _should_ work for breezy, let me see
[06:35] <minghua> Yagisan: http://www.ubuntuguide.org/#scim is some instruction about scim, but not that great
[06:36] <minghua> Yagisan: I remeber seeing something on wiki as well
[06:36] <Yagisan> minghua: thanks - I was looking for some instructions on how to get Japanese input going
[06:36] <minghua> Yagisan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JapaneseInputHowToInBreezy?highlight=%28japanese%29
[06:36] <minghua> Yagisan: there you go :-)
[06:36] <Yagisan> minghua: I'd have thought installing the language packs would have brought input as well
[06:37] <minghua> Yagisan: no, it doesn't work like that (yet)
[06:37] <minghua> Yagisan: and we are talking of improving the situation
[06:39] <Yagisan> minghua: thanks, I can make my wife happy now
[06:39] <trulux> pitti: ping
[06:40] <jdub> anhyone know of a good photo of dholbach?
[06:40] <tseng> maybe
[06:41] <trulux> jdub: preparing a WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE announcement for him?
[06:41] <tseng> i need a few moments to dig it out
[06:41] <jdub> 'face of motu'
[06:41] <bddebian> hehe
[06:41] <trulux> heh
[06:41] <trulux> I hope pitti gets around soon
[06:42] <tseng> jdub: i have one in mind, i need a few minutes to recover it
[06:47] <jdub> okay
[06:47] <jdub> i have one
[06:47] <jdub> a sneaky bugger snuck one to me off-channel
[06:51] <dholbach> jdub: what are you up to? :)
[06:51] <jbailey> jdub: Preparing the April 1 artwork already? =)
[06:52] <tseng> jdub: here it comes
[06:52] <tseng> jdub: http://tseng.ath.cx/img-106.jpg
[06:53] <dholbach> tseng: i just had a look at your pictures: 99.jpg doesnt look THAT stupid :)
[06:54] <tseng> hah neither looks stupid
[06:54] <sivang> tseng: whose that?
[06:55] <sivang> dholbach: probably something nice for the fridge :)
[06:55] <tseng> sivang: me
[06:55] <tseng> sivang: arent i cute?
[06:55] <dholbach> haha :)
[06:55] <sivang> tseng: ah, plesae to meet you in person then, Brandon :)
[06:55] <tseng> indeed
[06:55] <mvo> I'm still for http://gplan.info/blog/hackergotchi.png
[06:55] <sivang> tseng: I'de send you a link for a pic of mine, if I wasn't looking so bad :)
[06:55] <trulux> jdub: any idea on why I'm not getting the messages sent to ubuntu-hardened? I look at myself and feel a bit stupid as of my continuous need of reading the web archives for new messages
[06:55] <tseng> sivang: thats really daniel
[06:55] <trulux> no mention to the pain of replying also
[06:56] <jbailey> I should probably make a hackergotchi one day.
[06:56] <tseng> jdub: with hair cascading down intot he next persons post
[06:56] <dholbach> mvo: you should start blogging, seriously
[06:56] <tseng> er, that was for ^ jbailey 
[06:56] <dholbach> haha
[06:56] <bddebian> jbailey: w00t
[06:56] <mdke> how does one make a hackergotchi?
[06:56] <jbailey> tseng: =)
[06:56] <mdke> is there some kind of easy guide?
[06:57] <jbailey> mdke: First one slices off one's head, and puts it on a scanner...
[06:57] <mvo> jbailey: that would right next to "sign my key" ;) ?
[06:57] <bddebian> heh
[06:57] <mdke> jbailey, ok brb just going to do that
[06:58] <jbailey> mvo: Yeah, I'll be better about that for UBZ.  I'll actually remember most people there.
[06:59] <dholbach> mdke: http://www.livejournal.com/users/wouterverhelst/21322.html
[07:00] <mdke> too late for that, I've already sliced off my head
[07:00] <mdke> might as well use jbailey 's method
[07:00] <mdke> (ty dholbach, bookmarked)
[07:00] <jbailey> That's the spirit!
[07:01] <jbailey> POssibly literally...
[07:03] <zenrox> question when will the dapperdrake-changes email list be avaible??
[07:03] <sivang> LOL
[07:03] <sivang> zenrox: things for dapper start on tuesday, as noted in mdz's email
[07:03] <sivang> zenrox: so probably sometime around there :)
[07:03] <zenrox> ok
[07:04] <zenrox> that will work
[07:04] <zenrox> hehehe
[07:04] <zenrox> i like watchen the devel process
[07:04] <zenrox> and might as well fill up my gmail
[07:05] <dholbach> zenrox: being involved and reading your name on dapper-changes would rock even more, right? what do you think about it? :)
[07:06] <sivang> zenrox: you could join the MOTU team and make Dapper's universe expand even more :)
[07:06] <dholbach> sivang: you too :)
[07:06] <sivang> dholbach: I know ;-)
[07:07] <dholbach> dapper is YOUR release :)
[07:07] <sivang> dholbach: Is this a hint ? ;-)
[07:07] <zenrox> i know  and i am going to try to provide better bookmarks for dapper
[07:07] <dholbach> yeah... i hope you get cracking with us :)
[07:07] <dholbach> zenrox: what about fixing packages? :)
[07:08] <zenrox> dholbach, dont have the skills for that
[07:09] <sivang> dholbach: I really do plan to crack with you guys on MOTU, as well as try to squeeze my other wish goals for dapper (see them on the BOFs list) :-)
[07:09] <dholbach> *nod*
[07:09] <bddebian> You do plan to do crack with us? :-)
[07:10] <dholbach> . o O { oooohh yeah... crack }
[07:10] <pef> dholbach: hello Daniel
[07:11] <dholbach> hey pef
[07:11] <dholbach> how are you?
[07:11] <sivang> bddebian: heheh
[07:23] <bddebian> Heya pef
[07:23] <bddebian> Oh
[07:29] <sivang> well, I've went to prepare some pasta and sauce. laterz all
[07:30] <Mitario> jdub, when were you coming to holland again?
[07:30] <dholbach> Mitario: on Treenaks' birthday :)
[07:31] <Mitario> heh which is? (a)
[07:33] <dholbach> 18th-19th
[07:33] <dholbach> or rather 17th-20th
[07:33] <Mitario> yeah oscon
[07:34] <Treenaks> dholbach: oh you're coming too? :) cool
[07:34] <Treenaks> dholbach: wait, /me learns to read
[07:34] <dholbach> don't worry :)
[07:34] <dholbach> i learnt it lately as well
[07:37] <Kamion> have a good weekend, folks
[07:37] <dholbach> Kamion: you too, enjoy it! :)
[07:38] <mvo> enjoy Kamion 
[07:40] <Kamion> thanks
[07:44] <dieman> nice
[07:44] <dieman> the mirror here is at 80% iowait
[07:51] <hmrocha> hello, i'm having a big trouble trying to set up two applications for a teacher
[07:51] <hmrocha> he needs wavesurfer and transcriber
[07:51] <hmrocha> but both hang because of the sound
[07:52] <hmrocha> i straced wavesurfer and it hangs opening /dev/dsp
[07:52] <hmrocha> do you know what can i do?
[07:52] <hmrocha> i straced transcriber too but it simply quits instead of opening a tcl/tk window
[07:52] <hmrocha> it's also a sound application
[07:53] <hmrocha> what could make an app hang opening /dev/dsp?
[07:55] <hmrocha> in hoary btw
[07:59] <sebest__> hmrocha: if /dev/dsp is already opened by another process
[08:00] <sebest__> it's certainly the case, maybe esd is already using it
[08:00] <hmrocha> hmmm, how can i stop esd then?
[08:01] <sebest__> stopping esd is not the best solution
[08:01] <sebest__> the best solution is to make your app use esd
[08:01] <hmrocha> sebest__, thanks very very much
[08:01] <hmrocha> it worked
[08:01] <Kinnison> ciao all
[08:01] <hmrocha> if you were heidi klum i would marry you
[08:01] <sebest__> ;)
[08:01] <hmrocha> i have been the whole afternoon around this
[08:02] <hmrocha> killall esd worked
[08:02] <sebest__> there is a tool that allow your app to use esd
[08:02] <sebest__> yes but if you kill esd you don't have sound in gnome anymore
[08:02] <hmrocha> that's bad
[08:03] <hmrocha> i thought gnome used alsa
[08:03] <sebest__> do you have esddsp installed?
[08:03] <sebest__> it's a wrapper
[08:03] <sebest__> you use it like this:
[08:03] <sebest__> esddsp myapp
[08:04] <sebest__> and "myapp" will you use esd instead of trying to open /dev/dsp directly
[08:04] <hmrocha> ok, i'll try
[08:04] <sebest__> it may be in esound-clients
[08:05] <hmrocha> brb (it's not in this computer)
[08:05] <sebest__> yes it is
[08:09] <hmrocha> sebest__, the app starts, but i can't record any sound :(
[08:10] <hmrocha> i'll try killing esd and trying to record my voice
[08:13] <hmrocha> it worked killing esd
[08:13] <hmrocha> but now with esddsp :(
[08:13] <sebest__> hmrocha,  you could try with the "-m" option
[08:13] <hmrocha> but not...
[08:16] <hmrocha> didn't work
[08:16] <hmrocha> now strace shows that it hangs when reading a socket in /tmp/.esd/socket
[08:17] <sebest__> you started esd as root?
[08:17] <hmrocha> no
[08:17] <hmrocha> hmm, yes, i did "sudo"
[08:17] <sebest__> you shouldn't
[08:17] <hmrocha> ok
[08:18] <sebest__> you should have /tmp/.esd-$uid/
[08:18] <sebest__> where $uid may be 1000 or 1001 or...
[08:18] <sebest__> depends on your uid
[08:19] <sebest__> and a "socket" file in this folder
[08:19] <hmrocha> i needed to change the default uid for the installation user from 1000 to 500
[08:19] <hmrocha> i don't have a /tmp/.esd-$uid
[08:20] <hmrocha> only .esd
[08:20] <hmrocha> i'll try deleting all /tmp
[08:20] <hmrocha> brb
[08:21] <sebest__> maybe the .esd-$uid is a bug fixed in breezy to allow multi user
[08:23] <hmrocha> sebest__, i need to reboot the system to work in a fresh install (we use an image deploying system)
[08:23] <sebest__> oki
[08:23] <hmrocha> i'll have to convince my boss to install breezy
[08:23] <sebest__> i don't know if i'll be still around at this time :)
[08:23] <sebest__> should work with hoary i think
[08:23] <sebest__> the problem is that you started esd as root, so the file belongs to root
[08:24] <sebest__> and your user couldn't connect to the socket
[08:24] <sebest__> i think that chown would have fixed the problem
[08:24] <hmrocha> i hope this works, the teacher needs to start classes but he can't because he doesn't have this programs working
[08:25] <sebest__> in the worst case, you can make a script that stop esd , lauch the app, and restart esd when you shudown the app
[08:25] <hmrocha> hmm, that should work, yes
[08:25] <hmrocha> instead of running from the command line, i could create an icon in Apps->Sound
[08:26] <sebest__> yes
[08:26] <hmrocha> i like the way you think :)
[08:26] <hmrocha> i'll try what you said in a moment, don't run away please, i'll brb
[08:26] <sebest__> oki :)
[08:30] <sebest__> btw, as you seem to like strace, you should also have a look at lsof, because it could tell you which process is using a specific file (namely /dev/dsp in our case)
[08:32] <hmrocha> the script is not working well, but i'll try changing some things
[08:32] <hmrocha> but killing esd makes the app work fine
[08:32] <sebest__> kill `pidof esd`
[08:33] <sebest__> this should stop esd
[08:33] <hmrocha> i did "killall esd"
[08:33] <hmrocha> but that "pidof" is cool :)
[08:33] <dholbach> :)
[08:34] <sebest__> it 's similar to killall i think :)
[08:35] <sebest__> /bin/pidof -> ../sbin/killall5
[08:36] <sebest__> hi dholbach
[08:36] <dholbach> hey sebest__, how are you?
[08:36] <sebest__> i'm fine, still working on porting avahi :)
[08:36] <sebest__> and you?
[08:36] <hmrocha> sebest__, i'll tell the teacher that if the program doesn't work, he needs to run the "kill pidof esd"
[08:36] <hmrocha> sebest__, but i'll do the script anyway
[08:36] <hmrocha> thanks very very very much for the help
[08:36] <sebest__> hmrocha, the script is 3 lines :)
[08:37] <sebest__> you 're welcome!
[08:37] <hmrocha> kill `pidof esd` ; wavesurfer &; esd &
[08:37] <hmrocha> that's what i did (in the 3 lines)
[08:37] <sebest__> hmrocha, you may add a sleep
[08:37] <hmrocha> between kill and wave ?
[08:37] <sebest__> and use "&&" instead of ";"
[08:38] <sebest__> yes
[08:38] <hmrocha> i didn't use ; i placed them in seperate lines
[08:38] <sebest__> kill `pidof esd` && sleep 1 &&  wavesurfer &
[08:38] <sebest__> and you shoudn't put a "&" after wavesurfer
[08:39] <sebest__> because it will work in background and that's not what we want
[08:39] <sebest__> kill `pidof esd` && sleep 1 &&  wavesurfer && esd &
[08:39] <sebest__> so it won't start esd until wavesurfer quit
[08:40] <dholbach> seb128: i'm fine too, a bit tired, but i'll be off to a party soon :)
[08:40] <hmrocha> it worked, i love you
[08:40] <hmrocha> :D
[08:40] <dholbach> UBUNTU LOVE! :)
[08:40] <hmrocha> may ubuntu be with you!
[08:40] <sebest__> dholbach; ah , in germany? :)
[08:40] <sebest__> hmrocha ;)
[08:40] <hmrocha> the teacher will be very happy too
[08:40] <dholbach> sebest__: yes, berlin :)
[08:41] <sebest__> damn, i must look for one in paris!*
[08:41] <dholbach> :)
[08:42] <sebest__> i'll first go back home to have some rest and eat something!
[08:42] <dholbach> :)
[08:42] <sebest__> hmrocha, dholbach, c ya later and have a nice ubuntu love party ;)
[08:42] <hmrocha> sebest__, :D
[08:43] <hmrocha> sebest__, bye, have a nice weekend
[08:43] <sebest__> thanx!
[08:43] <dholbach> sebest__: it's not actually a ubuntu party, but i'll try to make it so
[08:43] <dholbach> have a good time folks!
[10:47] <mantiena> mdz, Hi
[10:48] <mantiena> mdz, maybe you have some time to talk about ubuntu-express ?
[10:49] <mdz> mantiena: some, yes
[10:51] <mantiena> mdz, as I understand most ubuntu-express work is done by javier.carranza@interactors.coop, right ?
[10:54] <mantiena> what are plans for ubuntu-express ? I'm main developer of custom ubuntu-based distribution for Lithuania and other Baltic states - this distribution is installable live-cd and we currently use graphical Morphixinstaller and text mode https://launchpad.net/products/live-installer 
[10:55] <mdz> mantiena: interactors have produced an implementation of ubuntu-express, yes.  I have not actually experimented with it yet
[10:57] <mantiena> mdz, I wanna replace Morphixinstaller with ubuntu-express, but it seems in current situation ubuntu-express 0.92 (from http://interactors.coop/~trunks/installer/ ) has too many usability and other problems
[10:59] <mantiena> I can improve ubuntu-express 0.92 (I have some experience with python), but in current situation it's not comfortable to work together on sources, because last ubuntu-express sources are somewhere at interactors.coop svn
[11:00] <rob^^^> it's been my experience over and over that noone knows what hostname is for
[11:01] <rob^^^> and quite a few semi-knowledable users think its something you have to ask a network administrator for
[11:01] <mdz> mantiena: if ubuntu-express is to be incorporated into Ubuntu proper, it will be imported into bazaar and we'll work out any usability issues
[11:01] <mantiena> mdz, what you think about adding ubuntu-express to https://launchpad.net/products and importing latest sources from interactors svn to Bazaar ? I'm already registered on launchpad.net and submited my GPG Key
[11:01] <mdz> mantiena: but I need some time to review it and determine the best approach
[11:03] <mantiena> I can add ubuntu-express to https://launchpad.net/products if you don't have free time
[11:05] <mdz> mantiena: time is never free ;-)
[11:08] <mantiena> mdz, so, you agree, that I will register ubuntu-express on https://launchpad.net/products/ ?
[11:15] <lifeless> mdz: we'll happy do the trunk conversion for you
[11:16] <andred> Can Ubuntu really safely include libmad0 in main? Then why not include gstreamer0.8-mad too:-)
[11:18] <mantiena> yea ;)
[11:19] <andred> Because I noticed that libmad0 is in main, but not gstreamer0.8-mad.
[11:25] <mantiena> andred, I think ubuntu developers simply don't want to let users to use proprietary audio/video formats
[11:29] <Riddell> andred: libmad is a build-depend of various things in main
[11:29] <Riddell> mantiena: that's not the case
[11:29] <mantiena> Riddell, then why ?
[11:30] <Riddell> mantiena: legal restrictions
[11:30] <mdz> mantiena: don't be ridiculous
[11:30] <mantiena> mdz, ?
[11:31] <mdz> mantiena: ubuntu developers are working very hard to provide value for users
[11:31] <mdz> mantiena: it's insulting to say that we are deliberately making something difficult
[11:32] <mantiena> mdz, I just tell what other users say
[11:32] <mantiena> mdz, for me it's no problem
[11:32] <andred> Riddell, But still, if mp3 decoding can't be shipped in main, then I don't see why libmad0 can be shipped, even if it's a build-requirements for some stuff.
[11:34] <Riddell> andred: it's not shipped, it's only in the archives
[11:34] <andred> Riddell, Aha, I see. That makes sense.
[11:35] <andred> Riddell, But then why isn't gstreamer0.8-mad in the main archive, but not shipped by default then?
[11:38] <Riddell> andred: nothing in main needs it.  some things in main do need libmad to build so it has to be in main
[11:38] <Riddell> mdz: IRC or e-mail preferred for breezy-updates? (4 of them)
[11:39] <sivang> tseng: what secret? ;)
[11:40] <tseng> libmad0 in main
[11:40] <andred> Riddell, Ok. I figured Rhythmbox needed it.
[11:41] <sivang> tseng: nice license :
[11:44] <bryanf> infinity: ok, so I just did a fresh install and I'm still getting that corrupted double linked list