[12:03] ok, so I can fix bug #576 #2066 by exporting LANG=C or using "xset fp rehash". Do you think that this is a problem that we need to fix? === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === bigcx2 [n=bigcx2@jpi-stillwatr-233-242.dmisinetworks.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === herzi [n=herzi@d011188.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === chillywilly [n=danielb@corporate.metalexpress.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === robitaille [n=robitail@p238-121.public.uvic.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === chillywi1ly [n=danielb@corporate.metalexpress.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === chillywilly [n=danielb@corporate.metalexpress.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === chillywi1ly [n=danielb@corporate.metalexpress.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === chillywilly [n=danielb@corporate.metalexpress.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Nitros [n=zero@cpe-069-134-043-044.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tseng [n=tseng@brandonhale.us] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tseng [n=tseng@brandonhale.us] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jaldhar [n=jaldhar@pcp09354977pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === bddebian [n=bddebian@pcp08717033pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Alkmanas [n=Vavouras@ipa231.1.tellas.gr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Alkmanas [n=Vavouras@ipa231.1.tellas.gr] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === doko_ [n=doko@dslb-084-059-071-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === womble [n=mpalmer@eth359.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Nitr0s [n=zero@cpe-069-134-043-044.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === kYotiK [n=kyotik@h219.165.140.67.ip.alltel.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === LaserJock [n=icechat5@adsl-69-109-21-76.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Hobbsee [n=sarah@CPE-144-136-127-247.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu === wickedpuppy [n=wickedpu@cm25.epsilon165.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-93-61.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tambaqui [n=patricia@200-230-129-143-mns.cpe.vivax.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-MOTU === james [n=james@pool-141-154-147-31.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:46] anyone here know anything about the nvidia-legacy pakage? [05:47] my name is james, just installed breezy and have a bug with it [05:47] just don't know where to report it [05:47] lo? === james is now known as James_Martinez [05:48] http://launchpad.ubuntu.com File it on Malone please [05:48] what is Malone? [05:48] Just the name of the Bug-Tracker [05:48] oh ok [05:48] thanks [05:48] NP [05:50] maybe it isn't a bug, its just I updated from hoary to breezy, and the nvidia module wouldn't load, saying "device not found" [05:50] I might have pu the wrong driver in my xorg.conf [05:50] *put [05:50] it was set to "nvidia" [05:54] I'll just submit to Malone and see what happens. [05:55] thanks again bddebian === James_Martinez [n=james@pool-141-154-147-31.wma.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] === James_Martinez [n=james@pool-141-154-147-31.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Tifa [n=alucard@cpc3-cove3-5-1-cust39.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === janm [n=jm__@202.172.110.51] has joined #ubuntu-motu === NCC [n=dannyd@d154-20-92-147.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === minghua [n=minghua@ppp-70-247-41-252.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === wickedpuppy [n=wickedpu@cm25.epsilon165.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-motu === wickedpuppy [n=wickedpu@cm25.epsilon165.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:17] someone remind me to add a "Bugs Squished" section to my Wiki page === zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:33] Morning all [08:49] morn [08:51] morning [09:01] hey guys [09:01] nobody besides us alive here it seems [09:22] nope [09:44] hmm :) [09:44] I've noticed an old bug that I've reported [09:44] and since it already contains a patch [09:44] anyone with cpu scaling support wants to test a one liner patch? [09:44] https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+sources/emifreq-applet/+bug/1883 [09:45] just get the source and apply that one liner [09:45] it's a panel applet so debugging is ackward at best [09:45] but it just works for me [09:48] hi [09:48] no dholbach around? [09:49] zyga: having your team named 'ruby' might be confusing [09:49] since launchpad is designed for upstream & multiple distros, not just ubuntu [09:50] hmm [09:50] dholbah suggested that name === ajmitch ran into that problem with zope, where the upstream zope3 devs were registered on launchpad [09:50] I know [09:50] and after all [09:50] that's why I wanted to talk to him [09:50] launchpad is borked with regargs to ruby already [09:50] hmm [09:50] someone nicknamed ruby already polluted the namespace [09:50] you *do* have teamname set as moturuby [09:50] so that should be ok [09:51] yes [09:51] but someone with a nickname 'ruby' is far worse than moturuby [09:51] I'll just tell dholbach for future suggestions :) [09:51] sure [09:51] ok [09:51] morning [09:51] morning siretart === ajmitch is relearning the meaning of pain [09:51] yay for dialup [09:53] oh man [09:53] just reading ubuntu-devel threads [09:54] ajmitch: whats up with you? [09:54] ajmitch: dude , are you on the road? [09:55] no, visiting parents [09:55] reading jdub's idea of maintaing UVF for main [09:55] I don't think he knows how much pain that would cause MOTUs [09:55] since a lot of universe stuff could not be synced === herzi [n=herzi@d011188.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:56] ajmitch: the problem with the registered developser, is maybe the same problem of maintainer of the source pkgs being registered in launchpad as the package maintainers? [09:56] sivang: uh? [09:57] ajmitch: ah , yeah, notice Scott's comments :) [09:57] ajmitch: never mind, ENOCONTEXT === ajmitch read the thread === ajmitch catches up on the latest politics [10:07] hehe [10:14] it would have been nice if bzrtools 0.1.1 was released in time for breezy [10:15] ajmitch, do you know if anyone is building freenx? [10:15] StrikeForce: yes, probably :) [10:15] there are debian people working on it [10:16] I've seen it in other debian based distro but its not in sid yet [10:16] looks really really really nice actually [10:16] ajmitch: Mithrandir would proably know? I know his been related to that [10:16] yes, Mithrandir has been working on related code as well [10:17] John Nilsson raises an interesting point regarding the users who will want "new" versions of/and packages [10:25] sigh, got to disconnect [10:25] see you tomorrow :) [10:27] bye ajmitch! === MasterC [n=chans@dslb-084-060-224-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === trulux [n=lorenzo@unaffiliated/trulux] has joined #ubuntu-motu === terrex [n=terrex@84-122-90-162.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tvo [n=tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ivoks [n=ivoks@lns01-2406.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:27] mxrvt rulez :) [11:27] mrxvt :) [11:31] it's nice :-) [11:31] quick and has tabs! :) === elvirolo [n=elvirolo@lns-bzn-3-82-250-79-77.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:32] hi all === ivoks [n=ivoks@lns01-2406.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:34] would it be possible to include a version of libtunepimp with mp3 support enabled in universe ? .... in order to have musicbrainz support for mp3's [11:35] it's possible but not really high priority at this stage === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:37] ok, but is it *planned* ? [11:37] it is not planned [11:37] elvirolo: nothing is planned :) [11:37] elvirolo: if you provide patch for package, we will consider it [11:38] ah i see :) [11:38] well, i don't know how do to patches [11:38] do* [11:38] eh [11:38] elvirolo: then bug people to help you [11:38] but i can recompile libtunepimp correctly [11:39] libtunepimp won't change in breezy [11:39] maybe in dapper === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:39] elvirolo: requests/suggestions should be made before release, not after :) [11:39] well ... i suppose so [11:40] anyway, i have to go... [11:40] but it's kind of obvious that people will need mp3 support for musicbrainz [11:40] elvirolo: it is, but mp3 isn't free [11:40] yeah i know [11:41] so you see... [11:41] that's why you could add a mp3 enabled version in universe [11:41] if we enable support for mp3 in that lib [11:41] elvirolo: on what mp3 lib does it depend? [11:42] libmad0 i think [11:42] it'd be a NEW anyhow since the src is in main, and we'd have to have an override to punt that one binary package to universe [11:42] you have to be sure :) [11:43] yeah i'm sure :) [11:43] actually 2 packages, since there's a -dev [11:43] lol [11:43] tat lib is main :) [11:43] yeah [11:43] i'm sure it won't get mp3 support... ever :) [11:44] unless mp3 license holder changes license [11:44] :) [11:44] i don't get it [11:44] mp3 can be enabled (since it was on my hoary box) [11:45] the only thing i did was recompiling libtunepimp === terrex [n=terrex@84-122-90-162.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:46] http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:6_O3B8Ncu98J:www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php%3Ft%3D29370+musicbrainz+breezy&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8 [11:46] if we all head off to the mjpeggroup HQ armed with shotguns, you think they'll give ubuntu a non-revokable distribution license? :) [11:46] worth a try :) === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:46] I'd say [11:47] if it works we'll pay apple a visit too, and have a small discussion on freetype2 hinting [11:48] how many ubuntu users do you think there are? :) [11:48] it would be a pretty neat army :P === Mez builds initng for breezy === chx [n=chx@unaffiliated/chx] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Hirion [n=Hirion@p5487CD57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:54] hi. yakuake is horriby borken in Breezy. (at least with Kubuntu.) [11:54] i apt-get installed, started and all keyboard input was lost === zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mitsuhiko [n=blackbir@M1775P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:02] <\sh> siretart: I hope u don't snore ,-) === MagnusR [n=magru@85.194.14.142] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:03] \sh: you're in the same room as siretart? [12:03] <\sh> Mez: yep [12:03] how do you know? [12:04] \sh: aka how did you find out? [12:04] <\sh> Mez: claire send a mail out yesterday with the room list and the "this i don'T eat" list [12:04] oh, the odl file? [12:04] yeah [12:04] I cant seem to get that to open [12:05] <\sh> Mez: the spreadsheet [12:05] yeah [12:05] OOo dont seem to work for me [12:05] <\sh> .ods = openoffice 2 [12:05] <\sh> or this i'm using :) [12:06] so where are the room lists? [12:06] nvm [12:07] woah great [12:07] <\sh> on the 2. worksheet in this document [12:07] the spreadsheet had several sheet inside :) [12:07] \sh: my girlfriend does sleep beside me, so it shouldn't be that loud ;) [12:08] <\sh> siretart: this is fantastic :) we will have a lot of fun :) [12:08] <\sh> siretart: hahaha [12:08] muhahaha! :) === Mez gets a user to share with [12:08] Mez: chances are that you get the room besides us :) [12:09] \sh: do you already have a power adapter for canada? [12:09] <\sh> siretart: yepp. [12:09] \sh: I fail to find one on reichelt.de or conrad.de. can you give me some hints what do I exactly search for? [12:09] <\sh> siretart: i bought two sets [12:09] cool! :) [12:09] <\sh> siretart: I bought them from mediamarkt...9.99 EUR...I'll bringt the two sets with me...one for you [12:10] the guy wo I'm meant to be sharing with hasnt confirmed === chx [n=chx@unaffiliated/chx] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Konversation] [12:10] \sh: great! :) thank you, man! [12:10] <\sh> siretart: np :) I'll have to make a list of things I promised to bring to ubz [12:11] <\sh> "Under The Radar" from Robert F. Young for sivang [12:11] <\sh> Dlink router for mvo [12:11] lol [12:11] <\sh> red redhat fedora for fun [12:11] <\sh> ms tshirt for annoying people [12:11] <\sh> trolltech shirt for ogra [12:12] <\sh> 2/3 six pack tin-beer to share ;) [12:12] <\sh> and last but not least a lot of humanity and fun :) [12:13] and beer [12:13] <\sh> 12:12 < \sh> 2/3 six pack tin-beer to share ;) [12:13] <\sh> the / == or === Mez yawns [12:13] do any of you people smoke? === Mez wondres why I've been put in a room with someone who like... isnt confirmed [12:14] <\sh> Mez: smoke as in tobacco or smoke as in weed? [12:15] I meant tobacco [12:16] <\sh> well...I smoke and ogra as well...but cigarettes are bought at the famous duty free shop at the airport [12:16] yes I know :D [12:16] was just wondering in case I was the only one [12:16] <\sh> or tobacco....i have to have a look what they have === TMM [n=hp@c51471f2c.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Mez yawns [12:17] well it should be cool if the guy turns up [12:17] he's a GNOME-ite [12:17] so ... well... I'm a kde-ite :D [12:17] hehe [12:17] lots of late night arguments === siretart doesn't smoke atm [12:17] :D [12:17] I didn't smoke for 2 or 3 years now, I think.. [12:19] <\sh> actually there will be only non-smokers rooms at holiday inn...or i think they booked only non-smokers room [12:19] so, the meeting outside for a snaky fag eg [12:20] hmm [12:20] I'm slightly worried [12:20] <\sh> well...the wonderfull meetings at the hotel bar for a smoke and a after midnight drink [12:20] the gfuy I'm sharing with has an alter ego called "alison" [12:20] <\sh> Mez: so what? [12:21] lol: nothing - just a bit... different [12:22] <\sh> well..I hope montreal has a nice gay scene ... so I can report to my friend that he missed a better place then cologne ,-) [12:23] lol [12:28] <\sh> hmmm.. [12:29] <\sh> my voice sounds like I was smoking too much last night and as I drank a lot of hard stuff...it was a good evening === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mitsuhiko_ [n=blackbir@80.122.201.98] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ogra [n=ogra@p5089E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Danten [n=danten@h102n9c1o1049.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #Ubuntu-motu === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:15] \sh: a minute? [01:16] <\sh> siretart: sure [01:17] \sh: if you have time, could you please have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NonpersistantUsers and tell me your opinion? [01:18] sivang: You submitted SetupSnapshots, right? [01:20] siretart: yep, and by sabdfl's advice I'm breaking it to moree small manageable chunks that could be spec'd independently to combine the resulting product. [01:20] <\sh> siretart: sounds like a great idea :) [01:20] sivang: could you also look at NonpersitantUsers? I think we have some convergence [01:21] \sh: I've already implemented this for a internet cafe, but quite hackish and with some limitations [01:21] this Spec would be a sane rewrite for this, plus I have a production system to test this ;) [01:21] <\sh> siretart: rock :) [01:22] sivang: which other parts are part of SetupSnapshots? and when did you talk to sabdfl? [01:23] siretart, if I might add my 2cts, I don't think this need gdm integration, but pam integration === Mez is now the Engb translator for ubuntu [01:23] TMM: I've also thought about pam integration [01:23] siretart, you could implement this pretty much 100% with pam script [01:24] TMM: the biggest problem is that there is no sane interface to the pam configuration [01:24] siretart, if you combine it with pam_mkhomedir or something :) [01:24] siretart: nice spec :) [01:24] siretart: I think it's in place for out of the box library installations, caffe and public access poiunts [01:24] siretart: some time go, why? [01:24] siretart, well, funny you should say that, because I am working on a spec for central authentication support, which would require a frontend for pam anyway [01:25] TMM: lets work together about this, because this would be one of my other specs for dapper! [01:25] sivang: just curious [01:25] siretart: :) === zyga hacked something similar a few weeks ago for web terminals [01:25] siretart, shall I fist finish my spec for the central auth, en then collaborate on the front-end part of it? [01:25] but 1) I don't know any pam stuff :) [01:26] 2) It's totally a hack [01:26] 3) it bypasses gdm [01:26] TMM: will you be at UBZ? [01:26] siretart, no [01:26] 4) only one profile to choose from [01:26] siretart, it's a bit too far away :) [01:26] ;) - sure [01:26] and I don't have $1500 laying about :P [01:27] TMM: do you already have a BOF page for your central auth spec? [01:27] BOF? [01:27] TMM: Birds Of Feather [01:27] I'm really interested in making this possible for dapper [01:27] I'm writing it up in gedit at tme moment anyway, I was told to use the spec template on the wiki [01:28] then I was supposed to point sabdfl to it [01:28] TMM: please ping me of you have uploaded your gedit notes to the wiki [01:28] siretart: I could help you with this [01:28] siretart, I will, I'll finish them as soon as this bloody DVD is done [01:28] I currently maintain 2 debian/ubuntu installations with central slapds as auth server [01:28] siretart, so far I've burned 3 coasters, this is becoming a bit expensive [01:28] and want to have this out of the box, because I'm already getting tired of setting them up again and again ;) [01:29] zyga: great! :) [01:29] siretart, I've got a couple of plans for dapper as well :) [01:29] siretart: I'm still reading setup snapshots [01:29] you all guys know, this was already an spec/idea/targeted for breezy. lets get it done for dapper! === zyga really thinks that config diffs might not be realistic [01:30] users ~ and installed (as well as not installed) packages are easy and doable [01:30] but configuration varies from /etc to /var and is too tricky to do automatically [01:30] OTOH [01:30] why config diffs, lets hold them in bzr repos [01:31] ubuntu could provide an image snapshot installer [01:31] zyga: so you want spec ImageSnapshotInstaller? ;) [01:31] something like 1) make partition 2) unpack tarball over network 3) done [01:31] I need both actually [01:31] they are a separate issue IMHO [01:32] I have also another spec, which touches your request, still to be drafted [01:32] but I do see UserSetupSnapshots + ImageSnapshotInstaller to be really usefull in web caffes [01:32] but it doesn't use images, but preeseeded d-i [01:32] that's far worse performance wise [01:33] the only concern are ssh private keys [01:33] they shouldn't be just copied obviously [01:33] you get this with cfengine [01:33] what's that? [01:33] its evil [01:33] :-) [01:33] terribly complicated [01:33] tseng: what is evil? [01:33] cfengine [01:33] I still gooogle what that is [01:34] configuration engine [01:34] hmm [01:34] I still think that unpacking a tarball with -p over the network is usefull [01:34] it's like cloning but you get to choose your fs [01:35] tseng: well, it is intimidating at first, but if you understand how to use it, it is a very very powerful tool for clusters [01:36] i have a "cluster" [01:36] but no time to fight with strange tools === zyga has a cluster at univ but it's so crappy management wise ... [01:37] besides - a cluster of suns alphas and old pc's is hardly an useful cluster ;-) [01:39] what besides ssh keys shouldn't be just copied when cloning? [01:39] hostname [01:40] how do you update your clones? [01:40] nono, I prefer my cfengine setups :) === cassidy [n=cassidy@39.160-200-80.adsl.skynet.be] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:41] <\sh> prost guys [01:41] <\sh> breakfast [01:42] cfengine... o dear god [01:42] that is horrible [01:42] exactly. [01:42] what alternatives do you use? [01:42] homebrew apt- wrappers [01:43] i was planning on writing my own as well [01:43] plus a little python script to look up package names from ldap [01:43] with expect [01:43] hm [01:43] and fiddling with /etc/pam.d/* using scp? [01:43] I should write a proposal for something like that as well :) [01:43] siretart, wget actually :) === cassidy [n=cassidy@39.160-200-80.adsl.skynet.be] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:43] omg [01:44] TMM: please spec this. but the authserver first, I need that anyway ;) === zyga_ [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zyga curses dying modem [01:44] siretart: could you repeat what you've said [01:45] brb [01:47] zyga: just not caught on your comments re: setupsnapshots [01:47] zyga: why wouldn't they be realistic? (conffile diffs) [01:47] sivang: I fear that diffing whole /etc is just not enough [01:47] sivang: if we want to diff both /etc and /var then we get lots of junk too [01:48] sivang: example /var/named/zone [01:48] zyga: why does it store it's zone confs over /var ? :-) (excuse the ignorance) [01:49] sivang: ask bind [01:50] sivang: and stuff like deborphan keeps 'config' or 'state' files in /var too [01:50] I think that generally lots of stuff may be keeping something wortch having in /var [01:50] zyga: I am planninig to start small acutally, already providing the PSS, and basic ~ , bookmarks and gconf stuff should be easy, from there build up. [01:51] zyga: we can always rank conffile by importance, and store those diffs at first, then ask user "This are addtiive and appears to be non important. Would you like to store/ignore/whatever" .. === zyga_ [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === siretart manages bind zones in /etc/named [01:52] darn, sorry my modem is really dying now [01:52] siretart: what was the last message that has arrived? [01:53] zyga: I'll replay for you: [01:53] 13:50 < sivang> zyga: I am planninig to start small acutally, already providing the PSS, and basic ~ , bookmarks and gconf [01:53] he's gone [01:53] stuff should be easy, from there build up. [01:53] 13:51 < sivang> zyga: we can always rank conffile by importance, and store those diffs at first, then ask user "This are [01:53] addtiive and appears to be non important. Would you like to store/ignore/whatever" .. [01:54] hmm [01:54] starting small is a good idea [01:54] gconf is diffable allright === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-199-209.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:55] zyga: http://siretart.tauware.de/log is the log of today === zyga has checked that bind doesn't store configs in /var/named on ubuntu [01:55] slackware does, darn [01:55] hehe === sivang removes one apps from the "breakage" list [01:56] just to paste stuff that's missing in the log [01:56] zyga but at the same time majority of stuff in var is useless for diff [01:56] zyga all the caches and such [01:57] cool - amule is now dumping backtraces after installing Japanese input support [01:59] it seems to hate /usr/lib/libuim.so.0 [02:01] siretart, you like the wget idea?? === TMM 's PC is sloooow.... [02:01] encoding a bunch of video while working sucks ass === TMM needs a cluster [02:02] TMM: wget is a tool to transfer files over http (or other method) [02:03] siretart, I am fully aware of that [02:03] TMM: you still need some infrastructure to manage your configs, espc when you have different target hardware and/or installation [02:03] siretart, you also don't have to muck about with host keys for all your workstations :) [02:03] TMM: so your wget idea does not match all my expectations. it will work in simple setups, but breaks when things get more complicated [02:04] siretart, you simply need a lot of self-configurability of the desktop os [02:04] such as ubuntu :) [02:04] TMM: 'simply' is an awfull word ;) [02:04] I don't want to worry about hardware, I've got ubuntu to do that for me [02:04] TMM: you can get cheap pc everywhere :) [02:04] ubuntu'll 'just work' on most of them [02:05] TMM: I see your point, but in real world installations, it is not always easy as that [02:05] sbackup is cool [02:06] siretart, as long as the system boots, and gets network it can work. the system will automagically look itself up in the central ldap server (by its mac address) and finds a list of packages there, that it will then apt-get install [02:06] sbackup? [02:06] siretart, you can do all your special things in there [02:06] "This is a user friendly backup solution for common desktop needs. The project was was sponsored by Google during Google Summer of Code 2005 and mentored by Ubuntu." [02:06] siretart, I've implemented this in 3 companies, one of them runs 200 workstations, all ubuntu [02:07] siretart, it works, you just need a local apt mirror and a slightly modified install image [02:07] siretart, you push all the specific changes through deb's :) [02:07] Lathiat: hi [02:08] Lathiat: did you get notification about MOTURuby [02:08] zyga: yes [02:08] i'll be looking at that stuff this week [02:08] just busy with uni atm [02:08] siretart, KISS :D [02:08] Lathiat: I was trying to get a pool for voting on a team leader but the pool system died :) [02:08] haha [02:08] poll [02:08] oh crap [02:08] ah [02:08] can we still vote for mjg59? [02:08] true :) [02:09] ok - japanese input breaks amule posted here https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+sources/amule/+bug/3187 [02:09] Lathiat: is mjg59 a part of m-ruby? [02:09] zyga: nono [02:09] he was being proposed for the technical board [02:10] zyga: who needs a leader anyway [02:10] hm. I see we need a ConfigurationInfrastructure [02:11] <\sh> guys....please do me all favour :) [02:11] ConfigurationInfrastructure shall setup LDAP Authentication and handle software updates.. hmm [02:11] \sh: ? [02:11] <\sh> relax :) we need you all relaxed and refreshed for dapper ;) [02:11] ah. sure :) === \sh is refusing to do anything which smells like work ;) [02:12] \sh: too bad coding smells like fun [02:13] siretart, LDAP is only part of it really [02:14] TMM: yeah [02:14] <\sh> zyga: well...ogra is testing amd64 edubuntu dvd now...and I'm heaving breakfast, means I'm drinking a beer ;) so ... actually this is what I call relaxing [02:14] siretart, we need SMB auth also, at least [02:14] siretart, and a way to switch authentication methods through GDM === zyga needs to fetch edubuntu soon === zyga thinks about selling support + installation for ltsp [02:15] TMM: I think I understand what you intend [02:16] zyga - how about giving me a hand in getting multi-client-arch working for ltsp [02:16] TMM: but for this, you'll need a quite sophisticated AuthenticationInfrastructure spec [02:16] zyga, I've had a crazy idea [02:16] siretart, which is what I am working on, I need to stop talking and continue writing soon [02:16] Yagisan: outline the issue [02:16] TMM: where you can define authentication methods and use a well defined interface to pam [02:16] zyga: First patch is here http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17297 [02:16] TMM: ok, I won't disturb you any longer ;) [02:17] siretart, AND It'll give me a change to horribly break dapper if I get upload permissions of my ideas :) === siretart gets something to drink [02:17] siretart, like the big debian sid pam outage of 3 years back [02:17] zyga - but qemu isn't playing nice, so I am having trouble building ppc clients on i386/amd64 [02:17] that sucked :) [02:18] zyga, I have been thinking about thin clients a lot, and processing power being what it is, and network speeds being what it is... why not combine ltsp with mosix? [02:18] TMM: It's been done - but openmosix for 2.6.x is a bit behind [02:18] zyga, if you migrate to a thin-client network today, your workstations will be so idiotiaclly overpowererd for the job, they might as well chip in [02:18] Yagisan: ENOPPC but I'm still reading [02:19] Yagisan, it has been? :) cool... I knew I couldn't have been the only one that thought about all that processing power going to waste === zyga knows nothing about mosix [02:19] TMM: I built it with 2.4.x, 2.6.x is only in sf.net cvs [02:20] zyga: I used binfmt-misc to register ppc binaries to be run by qemu-ppc on i386/amd64 - but qemu bombs out trying to run bash [02:20] siretart, shall I put you in as 'interested' in my authentication spec? [02:21] Yagisan, TMM: I'll be back in 20 minutes [02:21] TMM: 2.6.x also needs updated openmosix tools, iirc [02:21] cool :) [02:21] my dog looks like he could use a walk [02:21] TMM: let me see it first, I'll add my name in your spec, then [02:21] zyga - no worries - I'll be leaving for dinner soon [02:21] TMM: you've implemented user backup tool? [02:21] I never actually did it [02:21] with openmosix === zyga doubts the need of multiarch in real life though [02:22] but I REALLY wanted when I had 200 ubuntu systems at the tip of my fingers :) too bad it was a production environment :) [02:22] when working P2 350 are sold for 10$ who needs to support anything else :) [02:22] okay [02:22] bbl [02:22] zyga - I NEED multi-client-arch [02:22] TMM: just trying to figure if my spec is obsolete [02:22] :) [02:23] zyga - I got enough working for my needs, I just want to enhance it further [02:24] sivang, nothing is 'obsolete' I do not carry *any* weight here :) [02:24] TMM: I did a 15 pc openmosix cluster - I used it for converting cd's to .oggs - took about 2 minutes a cd (300Mhz-1.6Ghz boxes) [02:24] sivang, I don't have access to anything but the wiki and a bunch of ideas and experience :) [02:24] Yagisan, nifty!!!! :) [02:25] Yagisan, I do have an distcc server running on all the systems here, but that's as far as I want to go for now [02:25] Yagisan, people use these things for other tasks as well :) [02:25] who is HeinPietervanbraam? [02:25] that's me [02:25] TMM: pity they weren't my machines :( but I got a good mark for networking practical [02:25] TMM: aah, you are specing ConfigurationInfrastructure. I just wanted to create such a spec ;) [02:26] siretart, no, I am not... [02:26] TMM: when local apps are working in ltsp - I'm sticking distcc on all my clients [02:26] siretart, I think something screwed up, I only visited that page [02:26] siretart, because you suggested it :) [02:26] I'm specing AuthenticationInfrastructure [02:27] great! [02:27] siretart, its saying here that it's an empty page [02:27] siretart, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConfigurationInfrastructure [02:27] TMM: you didn't press 'cancel' so you retained your lock [02:28] no problem. [02:28] siretart, sorry [02:28] siretart, it should be gone now [02:28] okay [02:31] <\sh> hah [02:31] <\sh> I'm insane [02:33] <\sh> drinking beer as breakfast replacement.... [02:35] <\sh> EDUBUNTU RUNS! [02:35] <\sh> from DVD === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-93-61.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === herve [n=hcauweli@bar.oursours.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:45] hello [02:46] re [02:47] Yagisan: reading againg [02:47] s/g$/g/ [02:47] Yagisan: what is the configuration you are running? === thierry_ [n=thierry@modemcable143.48-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:48] Yagisan: non-i386 + i386 or other way around? [02:48] I like the 'use case' part :) [02:48] I got some problem with libofx2 package... [02:50] E: /var/cache/apt/archives/libofx2_1%3a0.8.0-3ubuntu8_i386.deb: tried to replace /usr/share/libofx/dtd/opensp.dcl, who is also owned by libofx0c102 [02:50] sorry for the poor english, I just did a fast translation [02:55] muhaha [02:55] we will have a lot of fun the next months! :) [02:56] first draft of ConfigurationInfrastructure specced === Firetech [n=Firetech@h53n1fls301o1100.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zyga is doing an interesting experiment [02:57] diff of hoary + breezy final upgrade from CD diffed against clean breezy install [03:00] zyga: how do you do that ? [03:01] TMM: have you seen this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkAuthentication ? [03:03] siretart, crud, that looks rather similar to mine [03:03] sivang: install hoary, instert breezy cd, upgrade, boot knoppix, create tarball and sent it somewhere, install breezy, boot knoppix, create tarball and send it somewhere, extract both tarballs, diff -u [03:04] s/sent/send/ [03:04] siretart, but lacks some things I also need, I should probably add that [03:04] TMM: I'd say finish drafting your spec, and then lets compare the two drafts [03:04] we can merge then later anyway [03:05] I think this NetworkAuthentication spec is way too vague and covers way too much [03:05] most of the specs are a bit wrong though [03:06] sivang: I didn't use the box so there should be little crap in /home - I think it's a good idea [03:06] for instance, you really don't want seperate network filesystems for your *nix boxes and your win32 boxes, just use cifs for everything [03:06] nfs isn't capable anyway [03:06] zyga: ah, you doing releases diffs [03:07] TMM: I wouldn't want to have my home on cifs [03:07] sivang: what did you think I was doing? [03:07] zyga: sorry, I was confused with some backlog I was reading at the same time === Firetech [n=Firetech@h53n1fls301o1100.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:07] siretart, that actually works pretty good [03:08] zyga: thinking of incremental upgrades maybe? would be nice of we got that one there..would save lots of badnwidth and time for upgrades [03:08] siretart, would you rather have a homedir that everyone that knows your UID can read and write to? [03:08] zyga: back again [03:08] Yagisan: re [03:08] siretart, token based nfs authentication still is not implemented, it is being worked on, it was slated for inclusion in 2.6.10, but that never happened [03:08] TMM: does cifs support symlinks? hardlinks? sockets? [03:09] zyga: I've already deployed amd64 server + i386 clients [03:09] siretart, it does, hp and samba drafted posix extensions that work with samba [03:09] Yagisan: I need to try edubuntu soon [03:09] Yagisan: I've got two extra boxes here to play with [03:09] siretart, and, if you install unix services for windows win2k+ can do it too [03:09] zyga: I am doing the patches for edubuntu [03:10] TMM: sounds interesting. lets have a closer look at it and write a usable spec [03:10] zyga: Schools have a mix of different boxes [03:10] siretart, I'm trying to :) [03:10] nfs really is a no-go for now [03:10] TMM: quit from irc and come back when finished *g* [03:10] nfsv4 has the potential, but not the implementation [03:11] up to now, I only used nfsv3, with all limitations [03:11] zyga: I wonder if we'll get anything on the incremental upgrades thingy, you talking about diffing breezy vs. hoary reminded me of that [03:11] but what you say makes cifs interesting [03:11] siretart, limitations in one thing, it is just incredibly insecure [03:11] cifs would mean to fiddle around with samba, and this scares me a bit ;) [03:11] siretart, if you root a box that is connected to the network, and that can mount it, you can access all info, and destroy everything [03:11] zyga: I planned to use qemu for building ppc clients on i386 or amd64 servers, and i386 clients on ppc servers [03:11] sivang: delta updates are already deployed in mandrivia, no? [03:12] zyga: don;t know [03:12] TMM: and with cifs? I can still su to the users and access his home, true? [03:12] zyga: but it seems qemu isn't up to the task of ppc on i386/amd64 [03:12] siretart, only from the box he logged into, and only while he is logged in [03:12] Yagisan: no, it isn't :/ [03:12] zyga: and I lack ppc hardware to test i386 on ppc [03:12] TMM: sounds great [03:12] siretart, if you root a box that has a mount to a share, then obviously you own that share, but only for the user that has logged into it [03:13] siretart, with nfs you could just write a small script that rotates your uid/gid and try rm -rf * on ech export for each uid [03:13] zyga: You can see from my patch that I cover all "trivial" combinations though [03:13] siretart, that would actually result in an emty server [03:13] Yagisan: yes quite impressive :) [03:13] Yagisan: small but usable [03:14] zyga: yep - It's amazing what you can do when your livelihood depends on it [03:14] hehe === zyga never managed to do a small patch that fixes major bugs [03:15] zyga: other then qemu - is there any other way we could get say ppc on i386/amd64 ? === Firetech [n=Jocke@h53n1fls301o1100.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:16] Yagisan: there is peach or something like that [03:16] Yagisan: FOSS ppc emulator [03:16] pearpc [03:16] sorry ;] [03:16] zyga: ah - pearpc - full system - chokes on 2.6.x kernels [03:16] zyga: Individual binaries are what's needed [03:17] zyga : or - complete manual unpack and configure, using the native tools :( === zyga needs to know how lstp works [03:19] it's a netboot + / over nfs? [03:20] zyga: yes [03:20] zyga: needs pxe - or etherboot with pxe emulation built in [03:20] Yagisan: so unless I'm mistaken: different / for every arch [03:20] then what? [03:21] zyga : that's right, different root for each arch, client boots, establishes a ssh session to the server [03:21] zyga: and runs etherything on the server [03:21] Yagisan: ahhh [03:21] s/etherything/everything [03:21] Yagisan: /me though clients use their own CPU for running stuff [03:22] cool [03:22] so it's a real thin client, only X is running on the client [03:22] well... [03:22] I'd say it's difficult/inpractical to run ppc over i386 [03:22] zyga: I needed multiclinet-arch as I have 1 amd64 + 2 p2 < 300Mhz [03:22] speed will suck [03:23] zyga: it's only needed to run ppc code during unpack and setup of the chroot [03:23] Yagisan: well for amd64 you could just run a chroot probably, right? [03:23] Yagisan: ah [03:23] Yagisan: wait [03:23] so a ppc client powers up [03:24] it fetches boot code via pxe or something like that [03:24] then what? === terrex [n=terrex@84-122-90-162.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:25] zyga: loads the ppc kernel other the network [03:26] zyga: 8over [03:26] right [03:26] and then [03:26] ? [03:26] zyga: loads a ssh session to the server, then starts a local xserver to display the apps [03:27] hmm [03:27] so when do you need to run ppc on the server? I'm still not getting this [03:28] zyga: I need to run ppc on the server when I build the ppc chroot that will contain the ppc kernel and xserver [03:28] ahh [03:28] Yagisan: can't you just pull precompiled stuff? [03:28] zyga: that is the only time (apart from upgrades) that I need it [03:29] do the values between @'s automatically get expanded in the wiki? [03:29] Yagisan: or use one of the clients to act as a support box when doing that? [03:30] zyga: it's a chicken and egg - how can the client help if the client can't boot === Hirion [n=Hirion@p5487CD57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:30] Yagisan: boot a live cd on the client, use the client to do anything you need [03:31] it's a one-time operation [03:33] zyga: that doesn't scale to other arches, and requires manual intervention :( === zyga reads weather forecast.. snow in the south ... yay [03:33] Yagisan: true [03:33] Yagisan: is the chroot build automatic? [03:34] Yagisan: it sure scales to other arches - you just need a livecd for every arch you've got [03:34] zyga: yes - works similar to building a pbuilder chroot [03:34] Yagisan: then it could be automatic [03:34] zyga: not all arches can boot from cd [03:34] Yagisan: you are trying to get too much, my toster cannot boot linux - I don't care [03:34] s/toster/toaster/ [03:35] zyga: I'm only interested in what what ubuntu supports - they are getting sparc and ia64 and hppa going [03:35] zyga: and your toaster should run netBSD [03:35] :) [03:36] Yagisan: hehe :> [03:37] siretart, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AuthenticationInfrastructure [03:37] siretart, it's not everything I wanted to put in, but it's a start [03:38] zyga: what arches can you test ? [03:41] Yagisan: ubuntu will officially support ia64 and sparc? === zyga always wanted a sparc station but they either cost more than 10$ (while being worth 5) or are loud as hell, or both === zyga_ [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:42] modem died again, sorry [03:42] zyga: i don't know - I just lurk in some channels and follow the conversation === Yagisan also would like a sparc === Yagisan actually would like at least one of every arch Debian runs on === zyga wants a silenced room to put all that noisy crap === Yagisan is partially deaf - I probably can't hear it [03:46] you can fell the vibrations and excesive heat though [03:47] zyga: yeah - but it would be cool to show off, "hey guys, even my coffee pot runs linux" :) === zyga has a gamecube [03:48] that's a ppc and a good motivation to run linux [03:49] zyga: I think there is a gamecube linux [03:49] but I need a modchip and eth0 that both cost around $100 [03:49] there sure is :D [03:49] but 30 megs of usefull ram is a slight disadvantage [03:50] zyga: that would make an excellent ltsp thin client [03:50] zyga: so you DO have a ppc system to help me with :) [03:52] Yagisan: but I still need a modchip and eth0 :D [03:52] zyga: details, details [03:52] you can click on ads on my blog if you really want to help me helping you ;] [03:52] I've got $0.74 ATM [03:52] :-)) [03:52] OTOH it'd be alot easier to buy old g3 === zyga is confused about ppc/mac cpu complexity [03:53] zyga: I have $10au left in my account - If I don't get another customer soon I can't pay the rent :( [03:54] Yagisan: what do you sell/support? [03:54] zyga: E-Security services (data recovery, pen testing etc) [03:55] zyga: I did a layout mockup of a website a while ago while I develop a real one [03:55] Yagisan: expand your services [03:55] Yagisan: I'm still amazed by how inefficient major corporations are [03:55] I'm a freelance programmer - I constantly get hired to 'provide a solution' [03:56] zyga: general layout mockup can be found here http://users.tpg.com.au/yagisan/ [03:56] since I'm not hired as an analysist I just get to write code according to specs [03:56] Yagisan: http://www.suxx.pl/blog [03:56] Yagisan: use nicer stylesheet [03:57] colors suck IMHO [03:57] (anyway) [03:57] all the time I write something that is useless [03:57] I get paid [03:57] a month passes [03:57] zyga: it's a mockup. I like the colours, but the fonts and sizing suck [03:57] and I get hired again to write from scratch/improve previous tool [03:58] and this goes on and on since every version is equally useless :-) [03:58] I guess I could go to that company and say 'your analisyst sucks, hire me' [03:58] but I neet to eat and such so I don't care ;-) [03:59] Yagisan: get rid of those buttons on the bottom, your clients don't even know what that is [03:59] or make them small and invisible unless you really look [03:59] get rid of 'page looks odd' [04:00] your clients don't like to feel stiupid [04:00] they will ignore you to prove their point [04:00] :-) [04:00] zyga: I haven't even offically launched it - it was a mockup [04:00] Yagisan: I know :) [04:00] and really change the colours to something corporate [04:00] blue+white with black text [04:00] zyga: I didn't even put content up! [04:00] :-) [04:00] I'm commenting on the mockup [04:01] zyga: I hadn't done html for a long time - and then I discovered that IE would eat my css [04:02] zyga: so I put a bitch page for content [04:02] Yagisan: why don't you use an existing webportal/blog tool? [04:03] it's easier, works everywhere, looks good on various browsers and is more less correct according to taste/choice [04:03] zyga: because I haven't found one I like - I'm looking through aptitude now [04:03] Yagisan: aptitude hasn't got much webapps IMHO [04:03] Yagisan: try wordpress for blog - it's really good [04:04] zyga: is it in apt ? [04:04] looks excelent, has free and easy templates, is fully XHTML [04:04] Yagisan: no - it cannot be [04:04] it's like you want to install something in $HOME/public_html via apt ;-) [04:04] Good morning [04:04] morning Kyral [04:04] zyga: what's it depend on ? [04:04] Yagisan: php, mysql [04:04] G'day Kyral [04:05] Yagisan: my blog runs that if you want to have a look [04:05] zyga - looking at your blog [04:05] It's fully GPLd if you care [04:05] admin side is lovely [04:06] easy upgrade notification [04:06] lots of plugins for various stuff [04:06] zyga: actually I do care (my pet package was rejected because upstream didn't care) [04:06] zyga: easy to transport between hosting providers ? [04:06] http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/ [04:06] themes for you ;-) [04:07] Yagisan: yes, just export your database [04:08] zyga: I'll try to set that up on my ddns system - looks interesting [04:09] Yagisan: installation is easy all you need is to extract a tarball and click a few times [04:11] zyga: reading manual === cassidy [n=cassidy@64-205.243.81.adsl.skynet.be] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:19] zyga: you really hate my colours don't you === zyga_ [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:26] cable tech support came, still no luck with modem :/ [04:28] zyga_: whats wrong with your modem ? [04:29] Yagisan: I don't know yet - it keeps disconnecting [04:29] the signal suddenly became a lot weaker [04:30] zyga_: my adsl modem does that when it gets hot (cheap netcomm crap) [04:31] brb === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-93-61.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ivoks [n=ivoks@lns01-2406.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === plugwash [i=plugwash@p10link.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mikhail^ [n=dean@210.213.189.95] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jzs [n=jzs@213.173.238.66] has joined #ubuntu-motu === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-55-245.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:04] re [05:04] :-) [05:05] filter added, modem works [05:05] zyga: be back soon - putting daughter to bed [05:08] re [05:08] TMM: I just read your AuthenticationInfrastructure spec [05:08] \sh: ping [05:09] siretart, any good? [05:10] TMM: I'm a bit puzzeled [05:10] it describes an concept of "proxy pam authentication" [05:11] but I don't get the idea what this would mean [05:11] siretart, then the spec needs clearing up :) [05:11] does it mean that all applications need to be rewritten to use this proxy interface? [05:11] no [05:11] and after all, how would this be implemented? [05:11] TMM: what do you think how long would it take to implement that spec? [05:12] doesn't HAVE to be long I think [05:12] but, there's still some details that I need to think about, you wanted to read it, so I put it up :) [05:12] okay === LostSole [n=drain@dsl092-238-221.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:13] the difficulty is in providing different pam plugins in different situations without switching the entire application stack over [05:13] I was rather thinking about some interfaces to the existing pam config [05:13] similar to update-inetd [05:13] yeah [05:14] the trouble with that is for multiple logins at the same machine [05:14] if you switch the pam plugins over later, suddenly your session might be worthless [05:15] even more so with NSS :) === lakin [n=lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:15] can't you assume that the same login is unique over the network? [05:16] wouldn't that make thinks easier? [05:16] you'd have to assume that there is only one person at a machine at one time I think... [05:16] although you could only switch gdm over I suppose [05:17] no, that would break ltsp installations very very hard [05:17] it's not ideal :) [05:17] that's why I came up with the proxy pam stuff [05:18] which I don't understand at all :) [05:18] basically the idea is that the first session you start will have a type of authentication associated with it, if there is no type, it'll default to the current behaviour [05:19] does that make any sense? [05:19] OK, I need to clarify this in the spec :D [05:19] idea taken, okay. but how does that fit into /etc/pam.d/*? [05:20] TMM: yes, clarify this and try to sketch how a possible implementation could work under the hoods [05:20] the proxy would delegate the actual authentication to one of the 'real' plugins [05:20] \sh: regarding amarok... get it ready for dapper and I'll shove it into backports as soon as possible [05:20] you can cascade credentials down in the stack of plugins [05:21] the difference between that and this would be that the order of the plugins won't be determined by the various conf files directly anymore, but by pam itself === TMM just realises something [05:21] you can already pretty much do that [05:22] yes? [05:23] your proposal sounds a bit like messing a lot with libpam. [05:23] yeah, it's messing a lot with libpam [05:23] trying to work around some of its limitations [05:24] pam is a very security sensitive library. every change to that would require a lot of review. a hell of lot of reviews [05:24] I need to run some tests this week [05:24] I think I've got an idea that wouldn't require changes to libpam itself [05:24] will probably still need to patch libnss though [05:25] I can't really see a way around that [05:25] that would be better, because I don't think we could to massive changes to pam ourselves [05:25] hm. still libnss changes.. hmhm [05:25] depends a bit on how the nss sessions are regulated exactly... [05:26] it's current for a session, but, during some tests I did sometimes nss updates itself during a session, if that happens you are screwed === LostSole [n=drain@dsl092-238-221.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === TMM wonders if you could do some ld_preload type hacks for that... [05:29] siretart, this is what is bugging me: === LaserJock [n=icechat5@adsl-69-227-135-198.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:29] siretart, user logs in, and chooses "SMB auth" from gdm, all the scripts run, user authenticates, then, starts a nested login, and chooses local... [05:29] siretart, then logs in again... in what state is the PAM/NSS stuff then? [05:30] well, the state of the config files would be rahter obvious, but, what happens to authentication after that === siretart is really scared by the idea that configuration itself are statefull [05:34] siretart, how else would you do it? if it was trivial, then it would have been done long ago :) [05:35] how do i know who have signed my gnupg key already? [05:38] TMM: I'd rather define an interface to the current existing pam/nss config, that is scriptable [05:38] TMM: so that local admins can still keep ther sophisticated pam setups [05:39] TMM: but for projects like ClusterInstallation there is a defined interface to configure defined setups [05:39] this is much less than your proposal, I know. === Pygi [n=chatzill@83-131-248-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:39] But this way, we don't need to convince pitti that we need massive changes to pam and nss [05:40] and this is in fact my biggest concern. [05:40] when we touch libpam and/or libnss, it must be in a very save and sane way. We need to convince the security team, that the changes are supportable for 5 years! [05:41] you see my point? [05:41] siretart, well, the problem is still with the state of the pam/nss after a change while in another login [05:41] siretart, especially nss [05:43] -v please [05:43] ah, verbose :) [05:44] The nss lookups in a session, after /etc/nsswitch.conf has changed [05:46] yes [05:46] will the uid/gid numbers be resolved from the source you had when you first logged in, or from the new changed state [05:46] and, I have tested this [05:46] and the answer seems to be :"Perhaps" [05:46] that's not really good enough :) [05:47] I think the answer to this question is: all sources should be queried everytime, in a defined order [05:47] sorry for the non-verbosiveness, some people have decided that it is a good idea to talk to me [05:47] siretart, that is easy to do, but slow as hell [05:47] slow as hell? [05:47] use nscd [05:47] that'll just make matters worse [05:48] say you have an authentication method configured for SMB, LDAP, local and NDS [05:49] no matter what order you do, you are going to lag like a lot, especially if you need to change the order later, since nscd will be lagging, you could kill -hup it on change i suppose though... [05:50] I get your problem very slowly. perhaps you should add this explanation to your spec === terrex [n=terrex@84-122-90-162.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:50] but I think I get you [05:51] still, I don't think this would be implementable in 2,5 months [05:51] nss is rather integral to the system, problem is, I am not EXACTLY sure where it fits in, but, afaik, it is called directly from the c library for certain operations, such as gethostbyname etc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-55-245.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:52] and, changing its config will have effect on everything that uses those calls, pretty much immediatly [05:52] that needs to change [05:52] TMM: I have further question [05:52] siretart, please do! :) you are really helping me see the things I missed [05:52] TMM: does your concept handle the case of authentication with other facilities than gdm? [05:52] TMM: what about ssh, or even cron? === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-55-245.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:53] or imap? [05:54] for that it wouldn't be needed, as this is only intended as a way for users to log in to different systems, like the laptop example in the spec [05:54] for services, I need to draft another spec to compliment it [05:55] but they would not be handeled like this, they would be handeled in a bit more classic way, but with a configuration per service, that is static to be determined by the adminstrator [05:55] so you are saying users should only use gdm? [05:55] on an ubuntu desktop? yes [05:55] and I say definitly NO [05:56] you break a lot of things with this [05:56] it's not like you are alienating anyone or any authentication mechanisms [05:56] or breaking anything [05:56] there is no point to have a mail server authentication that is remotly configurable, you want to set that on the host that provides the service [05:57] how would a user then be able to authenticate when he tries to ssh to a workstation? [05:57] locally probably [05:57] or how he would be able to run cronjobs? [05:57] unless otherwise configured [05:57] only if he has a local account [05:57] what if the account is in ldap? [05:57] then no ssh to a machine is possible? === blueyed [n=daniel@i5387D0FB.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:57] that is the whole point of this scheme [05:58] then I cannot support it. sorry [05:58] to be able to authenticate in a meaningful way if one of the mechanisms isn't functional [05:58] think laptop here for a second [05:58] for a desktop nothing much would change [05:59] you have a central authentication mechanism, that could simply also be set for ssh [05:59] and probably would be, as the machine is immobile [05:59] if you break ssh authentication with users only in ldap, you instantly break ltsp installations [05:59] no, I don't break that [05:59] this would make it possible to use a laptop temporary as a ltsp thin client! [06:00] the problem is MOBILE computers [06:00] for immobile compuers NOTHING would have to change [06:01] .oO( perhaps we should have taken this to #ubuntu-devel - more experienced developers are there ) [06:01] at least I know what I have to clarify in my spec [06:01] yeah, this is a big step :) [06:01] but, trust me, this is not going to break pure ldap usersnames [06:02] I'm looking forward to read your implementation proposal [06:02] me too :) [06:02] you're ideas are really rocking! [06:02] but keep in mind, to get this into dapper, we must implement this in less than 2.5 months [06:02] have you had the misfortune to work with a windows box lately? [06:02] XP even? [06:03] better in less time [06:03] TMM: I don't care about windows [06:03] but, did you? :) [06:03] you can select what 'domain' you want to log on to, local or some network or whatever at the login manager [06:04] this is basically only trying to do this in a way that it won't break anything else [06:04] some parts of our university are using them [06:04] I have to use that option, and I think it is really awfull. we should try to avoid asking the user that question [06:04] for laptop users it's good [06:04] the laternative is timing out [06:05] yes [06:05] but in unix land, we have other services, with other philosophy [06:05] for desktop users we are going to have the option to not display it :) [06:05] please answer also this question in your spec: [06:06] we could use soething like rendevouz or SLP [06:06] you have different auth servers: ldap, local and smb === Fuddl [n=fuddl@2001:6f8:9cf:0:20f:eaff:fe4d:d7b7] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:06] but that's not going to work in legacy windows networks [06:06] how does ssh/cron learn which one to query? [06:06] and I want to make it possible for dapper to plug into a windows network that windows does [06:07] siretart, and, for dapper to provide windows services to clients that need it [06:08] TMM: as said, I'm happy to read your implementation proposal, but think about our available timeframe [06:10] some hack isn't going to cut it here [06:10] :) [06:10] TMM: and I like you to talk to pitti, keybuk and/or jbaily about this. I'd like to hear other opinions, and if they think if it feasible for dapper [06:10] ok, I will do that [06:10] TMM: you know, you are requesting very much [06:10] I'm willing to put a lot of work into it myself [06:10] I'm not asking for someone to do it for me [06:11] and I'm willing to support you, If you can convince me that your implementation design is sane :) [06:11] I will tweak it [06:11] and run more tests [06:11] asap [06:11] okay :) [06:11] and: thank you for doing this. you have great ideas! [06:11] I want to have something that is at least discussable in time for ubz [06:13] siretart, no problem, I enjoy this [06:13] ubuntu's community is great [06:13] :) [06:13] definitly! [06:13] :) [06:13] I'll try to finish off something better soon [06:14] perhaps I'll have to settle for a config tool that allows it to be configured as 'windows client' [06:14] and not have the choice at login at all [06:15] that should be doable in a couple of weeks [06:15] perhaps my idea is more post-dapper then... when all the setting scripts are in place.. [06:16] remember that I really need NetworkAuthentication, even when it only works with ldap [06:17] setting up an ldap client isn't really hard [06:17] even from a config tool :) === ryu [n=chris@p5487DCCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === koke [n=koke@adsl229-164.unizar.es] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tritium [n=michael@pcp0011975002pcs.sandia01.nm.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:28] siretart, there has got to be a way to do this properly :) [06:44] <\sh> siretart: u think with 100 packages out of marillat and debian he's able to upgrade cleanly? [06:44] most of the BOF descriptions are empty right now :( === ryu is now known as ryu|weg [06:50] siretart, I think I see a better way... === zyga_ [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:59] \sh: I think so. where do you expect breakage? === ryu|weg is now known as ryu [07:05] siretart, I only need that proxy thing for NSS really [07:05] siretart, and that is fairly easy to implement as 'just another nss plugin' === Hirion [n=Hirion@p5487CD57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:15] TMM: sounds great! :) === faux [n=christia@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.209.110] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:38] you can set some variables in pam sessions, I could store the method used to authenticate there, then look that up with my nssswitch plug [07:38] does that sound better? :) [07:44] if that works safely, why not === chillywilly [n=danielb@CPE-65-26-222-190.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:57] siretart, I honestly can't think of a security problem with NSS... [07:57] siretart, well, perhaps if *someuser* started to resolve to UID 0 [07:57] hem [07:57] ok... [07:57] perhaps there IS a security risk :) [07:58] security risk where? === ryanpg [n=ryanpg@c-24-12-5-187.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:59] Lathiat, changes to NSS in general [07:59] howso? [08:00] depends a bit if NSS is only convenience or not :) but, I suppose that there is UID checking on a lower level than NSS [08:00] it's been a long day :) === bddebian [n=bddebian@pcp08717033pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [08:00] Heya gang [08:01] heyho bddebian! [08:01] heythere bddebian [08:01] oh no [08:01] its bddebian [08:01] everyone hide [08:01] siretart, I've got to stop thinking about this today, I've had too much on my mind now :) [08:01] Hello siretart, Lathiat [08:01] Lathiat: Hide from me? :-) [08:01] hi bddebian! [08:02] bddebian: hide the thermonuclear weapons! [08:02] I should have enough time before UBz begins to get something into shape :) [08:02] TMM: well, I'm off for today, too. Lets discuss this tomorrow [08:02] siretart, good idea [08:02] Gah :-) [08:02] TMM: or somewhen else. [08:02] I'd also like to bring this up to the ubuntu-devel mainling list, because I think a quite wide audience would be intersted in that [08:02] bye folks! [08:02] thermonuclear weapons ? [08:02] and, I suppose that nss is not very security critical... [08:02] tomorrow! :) === TMM needs sleep === siretart too === Yagisan thinks that might be enough to get the roaches from next door [08:03] TMM: already working on dapper packages? :) [08:03] sivang, trying to spec features I'd like to implement === TMM needs to talk to a pam expert [08:04] my knowledge is apparently fading a bit in the details [08:04] not helping :) [08:07] siretart: ping [08:08] Mez: I'm rather already off [08:08] siretart: was just wondering where they keyring for revu was [08:08] /srv/revu1/uploaders.gpg [08:08] Mez: use revu-key to add ppl to the keyring, as documented in revu-trac [08:09] http://revu.tauware.de/trac [08:09] cool [08:09] I wanst given the terac url [08:09] Heya Mez [08:09] hey bddebian [08:10] oh sorry === jinty [n=jinty@205.134.224.215] has joined #ubuntu-motu === siretart off for now. cu! [08:16] can I get adobe reader for breezy via the official repositories some day? [08:17] isnt it already in as 'acroread' ? [08:17] acroread-debian-files is all I can find [08:17] no idea what they are [08:17] bddebian: who can mark a bug as fixed, does it need to be a MOTU? [08:18] LaserJock: No, as long as you have editbugs rights [08:18] bddebian: what do you think about https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+sources/xfig/+bug/2029? [08:19] wake up guys :) [08:20] i am awake [08:20] i think [08:20] let's package abiword 2.4 with grammar checking while it's still hot :-) [08:20] 2.4.1 that is [08:21] i ant that awake [08:21] LaserJock: Close it :-) [08:21] bddebian: done :-) === zyga_ is pulling the code and checking dependencies [08:24] err [08:25] err :/ [08:35] I hate this... It's already packaged === hwaara [i=blah@c213-89-56-41.cm-upc.chello.se] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Arr0gance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-79-254.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jinty [n=jinty@205.134.224.215] has joined #ubuntu-motu === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:35] hey all [09:35] i got my key signed! [09:36] i have a .sig file, what do i do now? [09:36] spayne: how did that go? I need to get that done too [09:36] it was great [09:36] i met Jon and persuaded him to package for Ubuntu! [09:36] he is a Debian guy but wanting a chage [09:37] cool === lakin [n=lakin@dsl-hill-66-18-228-60-cgy.nucleus.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:42] which key server should i use? === PlanarPlatypus [n=alucard@cpc3-cove3-5-1-cust39.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [09:47] hoi ajmitch [09:50] spayne: have you looked at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GetYourKeySigned ? [09:50] going :) === nafnaf [n=nafnaf@p549FD327.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zyga_ [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Mez [n=Mez@cpc4-lich4-3-0-cust247.brhm.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ryu [n=chris@p5487EAB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === blueyed_ [n=daniel@i5387EF26.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === trulux [n=lorenzo@unaffiliated/trulux] has joined #ubuntu-motu === swestres [n=boss@Doc-14-47.veberod.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch waves to jinty, a couple of hours late :) [11:26] hay ajmitch [11:26] no worries [11:26] just about that schooltool-live package [11:27] oh? [11:28] yeah, the settings for the schooltool livecd [11:28] that wasn't on the agenda for breezy [11:29] I'm interested in having it in universe [11:32] for dapper? [11:32] indeed [11:32] (sorry, very lagged on dialup today) [11:32] ah === jinty feels like he is shouting down a telephone over a bad connection [11:33] heh [11:34] ajmitch: is it OK to reject Malone #3039? [11:34] so what's involved in the schooltool-live setup [11:35] all it does is depend on schooltool/schoolbell, and put a few files into /etc/skel [11:35] LaserJock: probably my fault too :) [11:35] jinty: ok [11:35] so that icons appear on all new users desktops === ajmitch hasn't done a live setup before :) === jinty just wants to fix up a the maintainer scripts so that the files get deleted on remove [11:36] I don't think there'd be any obstacle to getting it in for dapper [11:36] cool, so you could upload it now? [11:37] heh, if you have the time... [11:37] nope [11:37] dapper isn't open yet :) [11:38] ah, well then I guess I will ping you again later... [11:39] hi all [11:40] hi bmonty [11:40] thanks anyway [11:40] LaserJock: why did you want to reject that bug? [11:41] sorry, I just set it to fixed [11:42] It said that the ipython symbolic link wasn't right [11:42] but was it fixed? [11:42] yes [11:42] I just installed ipython and everything was OK [11:42] /usr/bin/ipython -> /etc/alternatives/ipython [11:43] and /etc/alternatives/ipython -> /usr/bin/python2.4-ipython [11:43] so he may have had alterbatives set wrong [11:43] perhaps === mbreit [n=mo@p54874F5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === hwaara [i=blah@c213-89-56-41.cm-upc.chello.se] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"]