=== rata [n=rodrigo@princed/developer/rata] has joined #ubuntu-motu === herzi [n=herzi@c208007.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === rata [n=rodrigo@princed/developer/rata] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] === tvelocity [n=tony@ipa217.4.tellas.gr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Kyral [n=Linux@hamlin-157-17.hamlin.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:53] yo [12:54] hey Kyral [12:54] :) [12:54] 'sup dude? [12:54] Finally getting around to ditching usplash and jacking up the res on my boot-up sequence :D [12:54] (I'm off to bed soonish, just wanted to answer so you won't get the feeling of an empty house ;-) [12:54] Don't like Splash Screens :P [12:54] Kyral: with whom are you discussing it? what is that res for you boot-up sequence? [12:55] It runs at 800x600 on a 1200x1024 monitor [12:55] I'm just using a HOWTO offa the forums [12:55] Also spicing up the colors ;P [12:55] ah cool :) [12:55] I have a friend who did this as well [12:56] I find it comforting to see "OK!" scroll past at boot ;P [12:56] he wanted something more of the default [12:56] I mean, a bootsplash in the style of Gentoo would be nice [12:56] like its just like a terminal window [12:56] but I don't know how to change USplash's image [12:57] Kyral: talk to mvo, I think he's the guy who did that. [12:57] mmhmm [12:57] Oh, Kernel 2.6.12-9 is out right? [12:58] then why hasn't my usual update cycle snagged it... [12:58] Kyral: good night, if you found a bug don't forget to report it :) [12:59] yup yup === Kyral [n=Linux@hamlin-157-1947.hamlin.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-57-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === koke [n=koke@adsl229-164.unizar.es] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ogra [n=ogra@p5089EE34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === \sh__ [n=shermann@p5089EE34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jaldhar [n=jaldhar@pcp09354977pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === doko__ [n=doko@dslb-084-059-072-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === LaserJock [n=icechat5@adsl-69-227-135-198.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === bipolar [n=bipolar@66.216.151.160.dynamic.dejazzd.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-41-188.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:58] Nothing like compiling a new kernel on a Saturday night === StoneTable [n=stone@c-24-14-85-48.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:01] yo [03:03] Kyral: got nothing better to do? ;-) [03:03] Yah [03:03] and I wanted to streamline it [03:04] what are you streamlining? [03:04] the kernel ;P [03:04] 2.6.13.4 === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-41-188.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:05] I want to have it so only what I need to run my machine is in there [03:05] got preemtible kernel and stuff like that? [03:05] Having a ****load of modules is fine for the kernel when you are installing onto a machine for the first time, but I've had this system for about 1 year now [03:06] I know exactly whats in it ;D [03:06] Partially prempt [03:06] there is a new option [03:07] tells you which is best for which application (Server, Desktop, Low-Mem) [03:07] cool === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-41-188.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:07] and something I find really cool [03:07] though just cosmetic [03:07] I haven't done a recompile of a kernel since I made the move to Ubuntu [03:07] build in option that allows you to append a custom version string to the kernel ;P [03:08] I find the Ubuntu k7 kernel to be pretty speedy on my machine, but I know what you mean about having a butt load of modules [03:08] I'm not using the KPackage thing [03:08] I'm doing the old fashioned way [03:08] download the tar.bz2 from Kernel.org, make oldconfig, make menuconfig, etc === Amaranth [n=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-motu === nybble [n=nybble@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/nybble] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:10] my CPU hasn't seen this much full power compiling in a LONG time :D [03:13] iv'e was doing a lot of compiling for the FTBFS push the day Brezzy came out [03:16] My CPU has been at full load since 8:49 PM EST :P [03:17] compiling your kernel? [03:19] bingo :P [03:19] Another reason I wanna cut it down. Save compile time ;P === blueyed [n=daniel@i5387C5D8.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:20] geez, what kind of processor are you running? PII ;-) [03:21] Athlon XP 2700+ @ 2.1 GHz [03:21] hhmmm, doesn't seem like it should take that much time [03:21] You don't understand, the Ubuntu Config enables just about EVERY MODULE [03:22] Crap compile error [03:22] but I though you were getting rid of those you don't need [03:22] *thought [03:22] NOW I will === wickedpuppy [n=wickedpu@cm25.epsilon165.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:00] MOTUs rule === g14 [n=g14@12-222-183-136.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:17] Does anyone agree with me when I say that the default ubuntu (or debian) install should have more than just a / partition set up by default? [04:17] I'm writing a presentation / paper on why and would like some feedback [04:18] g14: it has already. [04:19] so... no :-) [04:19] Nafallo: What partitions does it seperate? [04:19] / and swap :-) [04:20] lol, smarta** [04:20] I was thinking about some cool use cases though [04:20] don't. if you need that you should manage to make the partitioning manually. [04:20] Like you put in a dapper cd and it recognizes that /home is on it's own partition. It wipes and updates everything but home after you say yes when prompted to upgrade [04:21] For security and stability, it makes more sense [04:21] I mean it's not a huge change, but it would make ubuntu, just "that much better TM" [04:22] a, so what you want is not to change the default behavior but add a warning or something like that then. [04:23] no, /boot, /tmp, /var, and /home should be on seperate partitions by default [04:23] It would be trivial to add to the installer [04:23] could you add a wishlist bugg against installer on bugzilla (I guess that's still the BTS for main) [04:23] ehm, IMO they should not. [04:23] Why not? [04:23] Give me a good reason [04:24] cause users will be annoyed when their last megs they need for yet another porndownload exists on /boot [04:24] they can't use that [04:24] well /boot only needs about 20MB [04:24] so? === eazel7 [n=eazel7@host54.201-252-74.telecom.net.ar] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:25] if there are 10MB free and /home is filled you got an annoyed user. [04:25] hi ppl [04:25] And what if their pornodownload makes their system unbootable? [04:25] ehm... we are using linux :-) [04:25] Then they are way pissed at linux and hate it for "sucking so bad" [04:25] 5% are always reserved for root :-) [04:26] To a newbie, gnome = linux [04:26] where can I find info about next ubuntu dev branch? [04:26] So if gnome doesn't load, linux sucks [04:26] what I said [04:26] And is broken [04:26] logical partitioning would prevent that from ever happening [04:26] eazel7: what info are you looking for? :-) [04:27] g14: still not needed in most cases [04:27] Nafallo, now that breezy is released, where's the unstable? [04:27] eazel7: see #ubuntu-devel topic [04:27] Key word, "most cases" [04:27] eazel7: there is none. it's opened next week. [04:27] g14: the rest of the cases can use manual partitioning. [04:27] Ubuntu doesn't ship with a grub splash because on some video cards / archs, it makes the menu look very weird [04:28] thanks [04:28] So "most cases" were trumped for the minority [04:28] If it is preventable for the minority to have a messed up system and it doesn't affect anyone else, isn't that a much better idea? [04:28] well, I had grubsplash on one boot. I didn't get to see it, so I removed it :-). [04:28] g14: I'd rather have a dull grub that works everywhere than a flashy grub that causes headaches in #ubuntu [04:28] we are talking about corner-cases here. [04:29] Amaranth: That is my point [04:29] Amaranth: Setting up seperate partitons by default would save problems [04:30] anyway, I'm not the one taking decisions. [04:30] I am asking for opinions, not decisions [04:31] but both debian and ubuntu have always had root+swap. I trust both of the devel-teams on that decision :-). [04:31] I am writing a case on why this should be implimented [04:31] Every distro is root + swap [04:31] probably for good reasons then :-) [04:31] It would take some thought on how to do it, but with planning, it would be much better [04:32] personally I would rather see LVM used by default, but that's just me ;-) [04:32] but both debian and ubuntu have always had a slow and linear boot [04:32] I trust that they will both be moving to a dependency based init in the future [04:32] ehm... how would the boot be faster with more partitions? ;-) [04:32] more forks? more fsck? [04:32] noatime to /var and /tmp will cause less of the stat() function call [04:33] technically [04:33] I was using that as an example that just because something is and always has been doesn't mean it shouldn't change [04:33] for the better [04:34] g14: sounds good, less IO is always better [04:34] less stat() calls during boot means less disk IO [04:34] Amaranth: Exactly [04:34] With / as one big partiton, it's not possible to do that [04:35] well, when in laptop-mode / is noatime. why not make that permanent if it causes the delays of several microseconds? ;-) [04:35] I want to get as much input on this before I present it to the dev team and community to weight the pros and cons [04:35] honestly, if you need those tweaks you would probably use gentoo :-P [04:35] No [04:35] Ubuntu is about the system that "just works TM" [04:35] You shouldn't have to worry abou it breaking, the devs made it very fault tolerant and secure [04:36] This is yet another way to do that [04:37] I mean Ubuntu has taken some of the best ideas from other distributions and rolled them into (in my opinion) the best desktop linux distro there is [04:37] Why not make it better? [04:37] atime is usefull [04:37] and things rely on it [04:38] Lathiat: That was just an example [04:38] /home should be mounted with nosuid and nodev in my opinion [04:39] another very trivial change that adds quite a bit securitywise [04:39] not really [04:40] I compromise your account as a worm and use mknod to create hda in your ~ [04:40] I have raw access to the drive and all of your files [04:40] mounting /home with nodev would prevent that [04:40] And break nothing [04:41] hmm, angry girlfriend here now :-P [04:41] so you have raw access to my drive [04:42] you fiddle with / instead [04:42] gtg 4:41 here ;-) [04:42] Nafallo: Those are always fun [04:42] g14: you can only mknod if your root, dude [04:42] Lathiat: I realize this [04:42] same for suid files, you need to be the target user === g14 is a computer security specialist [04:43] i suppose suid has a better argument than nodev [04:43] ok [04:43] since suid can be set on other users stuff [04:43] yes [04:43] but still [04:43] I'm not trying to argue [04:43] What would it break? [04:43] anyone that wants to use suid apps [04:43] in /home? [04:43] alot of people dont even make /home separate [04:44] Lathiat: You didn't read the start of this convo did you [04:44] I'm not saying people should make /home seperate [04:44] g14: you cant make it nosuid/nodev unless you do afaik [04:44] I am saying that the debian-installer should make /, /boot, /tmp, and /home seperate by default === eazel7 [n=eazel7@host54.201-252-74.telecom.net.ar] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Abandonando"] [04:44] oh [04:45] *and /var [04:45] i disagree with that, its annoying when you run out of space :) [04:45] for logs, that is important [04:45] Ok, here is another idea that would require more dev time to start up, but might be even more elegant [04:45] g14: well really [04:45] in a desktop systme its nto that critical [04:45] and most important logs are root [04:45] and so can eat the uh [04:45] reserved space [04:46] and if you need this security its not hard to add it yourself [04:46] (is my point) [04:46] And when that reserved space is gone? [04:46] g14: then your fucked [04:46] but if you really care [04:46] i.e. in a server system [04:46] you can do this kind of thing yourself [04:46] I'm not talking about a server [04:46] I am talking about a desktop for some idiot I just moved from windows, what does ls do user [04:47] g14: an idiot that moved from windows doesn't give a shit about his logs [04:47] You're not seeing the bigger picture [04:47] Yes [04:47] Linux on the desktop is taking off [04:47] i see the big picture, im just trying to argue the point of security vs inconvenience [04:47] With increased usage, comes increased attacks against it [04:47] g14: true [04:47] So secure by default is VERY important [04:48] And will be much more so in the future [04:48] we're already very secure byb default [04:48] cant write to system files etc [04:48] I don't think that this would be an inconveniance with proper implimentation [04:48] g14: but all these features you mention have potential inconveniences [04:49] Lathiat: Ok, so this is all done with lvm [04:49] partitioning up wastes space and users wonder where it went, nosuid/nodev can break things (well, not nodev s omuch) [04:49] g14: mm, that could work better [04:49] Lathiat: A stupid easy tool is created to resize partitons [04:49] still [04:49] even a dumbshit desktop user, if comrpomised, the logs arent going to be much good [04:49] And a very simple explanation is given on why it improves security [04:49] if the disk fills up, oops [04:49] Why do you keep mentioning the logs? [04:50] thats why theres reserve space [04:50] so you can still boot [04:50] still write out stuff [04:50] etc [04:50] i would argue that it doesnt improve security that much [04:50] g14: because thats a specific example you gave me [04:50] If / fills up with logs owned by root, the system doesn't do much [04:50] g14: give me another [04:50] Did you hear my use case earlier? [04:50] no i wasnt around [04:50] i looked up but it was far too long to re-read ;p [04:50] we are working hard at removing suid [04:51] You pop in a dapper cd and it detects that /home is it's own partiton. Among the default wipe entire drive options, you get an upgrade option [04:51] the "upgrade" option wipes the entire drive minus /home and everything boots with the same settings but a newer distro [04:51] That would be nice [04:51] no that woudl suck [04:51] dist-upgrade? [04:51] why? [04:51] i lose all my custom installed stuff and settings [04:51] in /etc, /usr/local [04:52] and im a silly user [04:52] so i installed vmware in /usr/bin [04:52] apt already handles upgrades just fine [04:52] tseng: Try dist-upgrading from hoary to breezy with more than a handful of packages from multiverse installed [04:52] thats the fault of the packages [04:52] not the system [04:52] tseng: I don't think so. It will crap out on you. (I did it on 2 laptops and a desktop) [04:52] No, thats the fault of ubuntu to the users [04:52] and probably caused by having extenral repos installed for media stuff [04:52] the fix is to fix the packages [04:52] congratulations [04:52] no external repos [04:52] fix the packages [04:53] not to wipe the whole system on upgrade [04:53] if you had specific breakages [04:53] dont create some elaborate work around [04:53] Multiverse and univers [04:53] please file bugs so we can fix it [04:53] justified by bad packages [04:53] It was ubuntu-desktop [04:53] I had to manually remove it [04:53] Due to unmet dependencies [04:53] then you broke something good [04:53] what dependencies? [04:54] Also, when I dist-upgraded, usplash was not enabled [04:54] please file bugs about these things [04:54] I installed the gstreamer plugins from multiverse and a ton of universe apps. dist-upgrade to breezy did not work without some hackery [04:54] ok [04:54] we cant fix these things if no-one tells us about them :) [04:55] we often dont notice this kind of thing [04:55] as we run breezy throughout [04:55] and upgrade tests are often done on base installs etc [04:55] I would think that no usplash from a clean updated hoary <--> breezy dist-upgrade would be noticed [04:56] Stock hoary with all of the updates. dist-upgrade to breezy and usplash doesn't show [04:56] I verified that twice [04:56] if you didnt have ubuntu-desktop installed [04:56] maybe you didnt get a new kernel [04:56] Stock install === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:56] nothing tweaked whatsoever [05:00] afternoon [05:00] If no one agrees with me, I will drop it [05:00] ajmitch: evening :) === ajmitch rages against libofx2 [05:03] I obviously didn't add in enough Replaces: before release [05:03] oh well [05:04] Replaces: * [05:04] if only === ajmitch only had Replaces: libofx1c2 [05:04] needed 1c102 as well for hoary->breezy magic === xtat_ [n=xtat@gaius.rapidpacket.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === _maydayjay_ [n=maydayja@ip101109.101.nas.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === nybble [n=nybble@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/nybble] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Leaving"] === Amaranth [i=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-motu === nybble [n=nybble@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/nybble] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Kyral [n=Linux@hamlin-157-1991.hamlin.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tritium [n=michael@pcp0011975002pcs.sandia01.nm.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === seth_k [n=seth@asmallorange.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Kyral [n=Linux@hamlin-157-2002.hamlin.clarkson.edu] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jsgotangco [n=jsg@info12-116.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:49] Word of advice, if you compile your own kernel and use NVidia, don't enable the NVidia Framebuffer [07:49] it locks the device so it can't be probed or something like that [09:03] that's a known issue from way back and is documented in the README.. [09:04] (what Kyral mentioned RE: Nvidio drivers and rivafb.ko) === _maydayjay_ [n=maydayja@ip101109.101.nas.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jsgotangco [n=jsg@info12-113.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Fuddl [n=fuddl@2001:6f8:9cf:0:20f:eaff:fe4d:d7b7] has joined #ubuntu-motu [10:05] Good morning, known universe [10:05] morning [10:05] How's it hangin? [10:05] hi === zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tvo [n=tobi@5354EA9B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [10:29] hello [10:38] hi [10:38] hey siretart [11:00] hi [11:00] hi [11:00] <\sh> moins [11:01] what's happening? [11:02] <\sh> ogra and suse are still sleeping and I have a headache ;) [11:02] suse? [11:02] yeah [11:02] the cat [11:02] :) [11:02] \sh: why the headache? hungover? ;) [11:03] ajmitch: they were out all night drinking and partying :) [11:03] no surprise there.. === MagnusR [n=magru@85.194.14.142] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:04] <\sh> sivang: no..ogras gf :) [11:04] <\sh> the two cats are awake and running around, same applies to fred the dog ;) === zakame [n=zakame@unaffiliated/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:05] hi all [11:05] hey zakame === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:08] \sh: ping [11:08] <\sh> spayne: headache pong [11:09] \sh: i got my GPG signed yesterday! [11:09] \sh: is there a way to check my key is in the strong set? [11:10] sure, look in biglumber.com or in launchpad's [11:10] spayne: http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/henkp/ henkp/pgp/pathfinder/ === cassidy [n=cassidy@64-205.243.81.adsl.skynet.be] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:12] zakame: http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/henkp/henkp/pgp/pathfinder/mk_path.cgi?FROM=C137358E&STATS=statistics&TO=FC243F3C [11:13] zakame: but it does exist on that key server, i uploaded it to subkeys.pgp.net and pgp.mit.edu last night [11:14] any ideas? [11:14] probably hasn't propagated yet :( [11:15] zakame: i just don't know if i've done it right as i'm new to all this [11:15] <\sh> 24h to sync all servers [11:16] i think the probles is here [11:16] yeah it usually takes a day at least [11:16] to see if my key is in the strong set, it tells me to go to http://keyserver.kjsl.com/~jharris/ka/current/C1/C137358E [11:17] spayne: if it was only just done it'l take a bit for the key to propogate etc [11:19] does this look ok though: http://pgp.surfnet.nl:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&fingerprint=on&search=0xC137358E [11:20] looks alright [11:20] jon is signed by debian people etc so should be fine [11:21] Lathiat: i just need to sign the CoC and i'm set for the next CC meeting [11:21] and you have a clear & consistent record of work done? [11:22] i do - yes [11:22] i need to finish some bits off though [11:22] i'm in the middle of packaging dopi and writing up stuff about Hula on the Wiki [11:22] spayne: make a good wiki page [11:22] write a bit about yourself [11:22] what you do outside ubuntu [11:22] Lathiat: done! [11:22] and then link to as much info as possible [11:22] like mailing list posts [11:22] bug reports [11:22] wiki contributions [11:22] etc [11:22] Lathiat: wiki.ubuntu.com/SebPayne [11:22] spayne: url? [11:23] ah wow [11:23] spayne: what is dopi ? :) [11:23] looks good! [11:23] Lathiat: have i done enough though? [11:23] spayne: link those packages to changelogs.ubuntu.com and/or the relevant breezy-changes archive post [11:23] spayne: maybe [11:23] sivang: a kick ass iPod transfer tool written by snorp [11:24] sivang: i am packaging it for Dapper when it opens [11:24] sivang: it is all ready to go (i think) [11:24] spayne: also list your GPG key on your wiki page [11:24] spayne: koool :) [11:24] crimsun: good idea :) [11:24] crimsun: I thought having it registered in Launchpad is enough no? [11:25] link to your launchpad page [11:25] and update it with your gpg, ssh, etc [11:25] and the CoC [11:25] you sign the CoC in launchpad now [11:25] so its relativel easy to do [11:26] be careful not to use a sign-only key atm, because launchpad will explode [11:26] 'explode' ? :) [11:26] the infamous red oops page [11:26] crimsun: why is that anyway\like, whats the difference [11:26] ah [11:26] just doesnt handle them [11:27] right. It's being worked on. [11:27] yep [11:28] Lathiat: link my wiki page to launchpad page? [11:28] crimsun: it cannot use keys that have seconday keys attached to them to sign to CoC ? === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-199-209.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [11:28] i've updated wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SebPayne [11:30] sivang: it's a sign-only, yes. [11:30] #1972 [11:31] crimsun: I think I've used a non sign only key, and it worked for me. How can I check if my key is a sign only or not? [11:31] Launchpad won't let me log in! [11:31] when i log in, it still says "Not logged in" [11:31] <\sh> spayne: cookies enabled? [11:31] it's a sign... [11:32] yes [11:32] Father Nathanial, War of the worlds :) [11:33] sivang: gpg --list-keys |grep ^pub [11:33] the character following the keysize denotes the type [11:34] ok then,thanks [11:37] i'm signing the CoC [11:37] but when i run gpg --clearsign, it is using the wrong key [11:39] how can i tell it which key to use [11:40] set default-key in ~/.gnupg/options [11:40] for example, I have: default-key C88ABDA3 [12:04] crimsun: is this ok: https://launchpad.net/people/spayne/ === trulux [n=lorenzo@unaffiliated/trulux] has joined #ubuntu-motu === StrikeForce [n=marc@203-59-15-65.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Pygi [n=chatzill@83-131-249-199.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch gets bored & culls a few more dead bugs [12:15] oh :P === Unfrgiven [n=ankur@202.76.176.94] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:16] say, folks, where is dmix configured in breezy? [12:17] good question ;) [12:17] try at #ubuntu :P [12:17] either crimsun or #ubuntu would know [12:17] most likely crimsun [12:18] anybody willing to help make Fubuntu? :) [12:18] nope [12:19] I can't think of anything good starting with F [12:19] oh, well :P [12:20] its just Ubuntu with Fluxbox as a desktop [12:21] <\sh> fluxbox is a WM... [12:21] yup, yup..I know [12:21] you are awaken :P [12:21] <\sh> so which desktop do u want to use for fluxbox? [12:22] not sure yet :/ [12:22] <\sh> kde or gnome? === Trashcan [n=matt@ip70-176-253-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:22]