[12:02] <infinity> Australia.
[12:03] <ogra> sivang, au
[12:03] <sivang> ah 
[12:03] <hughsie> ogra: hey, you been following hal-devel list?
[12:03] <sivang> ogra: are you more comfotable with XChat then irssi?
[12:03] <ogra> only very rough...
[12:03] <ogra> sivang, yup
[12:03] <hughsie> what you make of it?
[12:04] <hughsie> Another opinion if you will..
[12:04] <ogra> hughsie, you mean "HAL is not for hardware management" ?
[12:04] <hughsie> ogra: yes that whole thread with the *really* long emails
[12:05] <hughsie> just wanted an ubuntu perspective
[12:05] <ogra> i totaslly agree with you... had a long dispute with pitti already, because he disaGREES
[12:05] <ogra> whoops.. sorry for the caps
[12:05] <hughsie> ogra: seems to have got people quite passionate
[12:05] <sivang> ogra: why HAL is not for hardware management ? (sorry, I haven't been following the threads just curious)
[12:06] <ogra> i think a "hardware abstraction Layer" should also manage hardware... work in both directions...
[12:06] <hughsie> ogra: seems crazy to me to do it twice by two different daemons
[12:06] <hughsie> if we have the information in hal, like acpi.battery
[12:06] <ogra> else i'd call it a "Hardware Information Layer" ... but we dont talk about HIL :)
[12:07] <hughsie> then we have to decode the system type, work round bugs, lauch the update addons etc,
[12:07] <hughsie> and then do it *again* in anothe daemon
[12:07] <ogra> yes, thats silly
[12:07] <hughsie> what's pitti's take on this?
[12:07] <ogra> i  trhin your approach is the right way...
[12:07] <ogra> pitti sees HIL, not HAL :)
[12:07] <hughsie> ogra: thanks, i was starting to get worried that i was alone!
[12:07] <ogra> urg
[12:08] <hughsie> i think davidz agrees too
[12:08] <ogra> s/trhin/think
[12:08] <hughsie> HIL is great when you want to name a disk.
[12:08] <hughsie> HAL is great when you want to mount that disk using crypto automatically, or change the lcd brightness
[12:08] <ogra> yes... pitti is our security guy, he's very cautious about possible security flaws being created through a two way HAL
[12:09] <hughsie> ogra: i can see that too -- but then the dbus stuff lets ppl lock it down
[12:09] <ogra> but i thnk its the right approach
[12:09] <hughsie> it's just a big change for the one daeom does this, another does this type way of thinking
[12:09] <ogra> just design it carefully, and it will be fine...
[12:09] <hughsie> i'm not quite sure how to reply to matthias
[12:10] <hughsie> I mean, i respect the guy, and his work is very good, but I think he is wrong.
[12:10] <ogra> hmm, probably wait for david to speak up
[12:11] <ogra> he cant ignore that thread
[12:11] <hughsie> ogra: yes, good plan. will do.
[12:11] <hughsie> i figured if he didn;t like the direction he wouldn't have merged my patches
[12:11] <ogra> and since he gives thedirection for HAL, he'd be the authorized source
[12:11] <hughsie> (he was the one who wrote the script invokation support!)
[12:12] <hughsie> if he does agree with me, then it will have been good to clarify what HAL is, and what it *should* do
[12:12] <ogra> i really think HAL must work in two directions
[12:12] <hughsie> yes, thanks. I'm not going crazy then!
[12:12] <ogra> so your approach is right imho... but even inside ubuntu we have different opinions about it
[12:13] <hughsie> yes, it's divided quite a few ppl
[12:13] <hughsie> but then you can turn HAL back into HIL editing a few fdi files
[12:13] <ogra> its a hairy thing because it can always introduce security breakage if not designed right
[12:13] <ogra> its quite fragile... 
[12:13] <ogra> but we need such a layer imho
[12:14] <hughsie> yes, i know
[12:15] <hughsie> when you talk to pitti, can you ask him what other issues he sees using HAL as, well, HAL?
[12:16] <ogra> hughsie, will do :)
[12:17] <hughsie> ogra: I keep upsetting people. first the ial and FnFX guys, now mattias with ppbuttonsd!
[12:17] <ogra> pbuttonsd sucks a lot, but there is nothing better yet
[12:18] <ogra> lots of people asked for removal pre breezy here... but there is no replacement yet... 
[12:18] <hughsie> ogra: yet. there's lots of stuff i could do with HAL for PMU using the pbuttonsd code and enhancing the pmud addon, but that throws up more politics!
[12:18] <ogra> probably someone should encance HAL enough to replace it
[12:19] <hughsie> I really need a powerbook laptop to borrow so i can write the pmu stuff
[12:19] <ogra> sure, but its the right way
[12:20] <hughsie> ogra: what does pbuttonsd do that hal doesn't at the mo?
[12:20] <ogra> yes, i need one too, edubuntu ppc couldnt get released, we had not enough testers
[12:20] <ogra> no idea, no ppc around here
[12:20] <hughsie> ebay...
[12:20] <ogra> :)
[12:20] <hughsie> i want a really shit one with a cracked screen or something
[12:21] <ogra> heh
[12:22] <hughsie> cheers for the re-assurance ogra, appreciated.
[12:22] <ogra> :)
[12:22] <ogra> thankls for all the work :)
[12:23] <hughsie> ogra: well, it's getting to the stage where it "just works" for me
[12:23] <ogra> yay
[12:23] <hughsie> i.e. i remove the acadapter and the screen gently dims
[12:24] <hughsie> fc5 has removed battstat applet in favour of g-p-m
[12:24] <ogra> we'll hopefully be able to do it for dapper
[12:24] <hughsie> ogra: cool :-)
[12:24] <ogra> :)
[12:25] <ajmitch> and hopefully gss to go with it :)
[12:25] <ogra> yeah
[12:25] <hughsie> g-s and g-p-m play very nicely together
[12:25] <ogra> g-s-s is a must for dapper
[12:25] <hughsie> g-p-m uses g-s for all the X detection stuff
[12:25] <ogra> i dont want to touch x-s-s again...
[12:26] <hughsie> x-s-s is a mess..
[12:26] <ogra> yes
[12:26] <ogra> and it wont get better
[12:26] <ogra> as long as it keeps its maintainer
[12:27] <hughsie> well, it could do with some love... or a re-write... ohh wait..
[12:27] <ogra> heh
[12:27] <ogra> if g-s-s hadnt shown up, i'd have started at least gconf integratiojn
[12:27] <ajmitch> and probably gone crazy because of it
[12:27] <HiddenWolf> g-s-s?
[12:28] <hughsie> the architecture in g-s-s is sound too.
[12:28] <ogra> gnome-screen-saver
[12:28] <ogra> its a bit odd because of dbus though
[12:28] <HiddenWolf> ogra, cool
[12:28] <HiddenWolf> ogra, is that moving along nicely?
[12:29] <ogra> yup
[12:29] <HiddenWolf> If I'd had a working video driver, I'd sort out those screensavers.
[12:29] <HiddenWolf> The bad, the worse, the ugly, and the passable. In that order. :P
[12:29] <ogra> but integrating with acpid until g-p-m takes over will be a PITA
[12:29] <ogra> since you cant easily access a users dbus session as root
[12:30] <hughsie> why would you want to integrate with acpid?
[12:30] <ogra> berather acpi-support...
[12:30] <HiddenWolf> hughsie, power down cpu and monitor after a while.
[12:31] <hughsie> HiddenWolf: that's left to g-p-m
[12:31] <hughsie> i'm pretty sure g-s will never do that
[12:31] <ogra> our hibernate tries to lock the screen for example... so you have to giver your password on resume
[12:31] <hughsie> g-p-m does that now
[12:31] <ogra> thats very hard to do currently
[12:32] <hughsie> g-p-m locks the users screen using .lock() from g-s, and then calls hal to do the hibernate
[12:32] <ogra> but g-p-m runst in the session... we need access from outside the session...
[12:32] <hughsie> ogra: why must you access from the system?
[12:32] <sivang> guys, when currently someone chooses a language in d-i, does he get all the menus in that language after installing ?
[12:32] <ogra> and there the dbus api stands in the way
[12:32] <ogra> sivang, in german, nearly all...
[12:33] <sivang> ogra: so you do get all the menus in he choosen language, ok
[12:33] <ogra> hughsie, probably its solved with your option in g-p-m note we are on a older version in ubuntu
[12:33] <sivang> ogra: are you also getting a GNOME kbd selector ready to switch between english and germen?
[12:33] <hughsie> ogra: you have a very old version
[12:33] <ogra> yes
[12:33] <ogra> upstream version freeze...
[12:33] <hughsie> the maintianer of g-s-s only fixed the bug in dpms last week
[12:34] <hughsie> and i only added support for locking then hibernating a couple of weeks ago
[12:34] <ogra> the maintainer would be me... that was mjg59 who fixed that
[12:34] <hughsie> ogra: okay, nice one!
[12:35] <ogra> upstream version freeze locked the version down... that was a matter of luck that it was updated :)
[12:35] <hughsie> good show
[12:35] <ajmitch> luck & pain ;)
[12:35] <hughsie> in (new ubuntu devel tree) are you going to ship a more up2date g-p-m?
[12:36] <ogra> until UVF again... its always a matter of the release schedule....
[12:36] <hughsie> sure, no worries
[12:36] <hughsie> you def shipping hal 0.5.5?
[12:37] <ogra> the one for dapper will probably be more strict, because we'll have 3 year support
[12:37] <ogra> is 0.5.5 out ?
[12:37] <hughsie> not yet, give it a week
[12:37] <hughsie> got *lots* of fixes form 0.5.4
[12:37] <hughsie> all over the shop
[12:37] <ajmitch> ogra: something we need to discuss for MOTU as well
[12:37] <ogra> so it wil be int i think
[12:38] <hughsie> good :-)
[12:38] <ogra> ajmitch, lets just go with the schedule for motu
[12:38] <ajmitch> ogra: sure, but we'll need to put in a couple of extra milestones for us, imho
[12:38] <sivang> ajmitch: MOTU and the 3 years support policy that is?
[12:39] <ajmitch> otherwise we'll have a crazy time in the last 2 months again
[12:39] <ajmitch> sivang: MOTU & UVF - we want to have universe in extra-good shape for dapper
[12:39] <HiddenWolf> I think universe UVF would be good. :)
[12:39] <ogra> yes, for dapper it would
[12:40] <ogra> for breezy it wouldnt have been achievable
[12:40] <HiddenWolf> True, due to the conversions.
[12:40] <HiddenWolf> but people upping new versions till the release day was kinda odd. :)
[12:40] <infinity> A universe UVF one month after main's UVF sounds reasonable.
[12:40] <sivang> ogra: what are plans for MOTU stuff over UBZ?
[12:40] <HiddenWolf> Anyhow, need to go. bye
[12:40] <infinity> (Though you're welcome to freeze at the same time, if you think you'll be able to do all your syncs/merges on time)
[12:40] <ogra> infinity++
[12:41] <ogra> we're not enough people to cope with the real dates, but a month extra sounds like a great idea
[12:42] <infinity> Well, I expect we may want to discuss Universe a bit at UBZ anyway.
[12:42] <infinity> At least, Universe for dapper.
[12:42] <infinity> Not Universe in general.
[12:42] <ajmitch> yep
[12:42] <ajmitch> so much good stuff that people want is in universe
[12:42] <infinity> In general, Universe is unsupported, archive locks down when we release, the end, sucks to be you.  And I'm cool with that.
[12:43] <ajmitch> then we beg to put fixes in -updates, etc
[12:43] <infinity> But for a 3/5-year supported release, we may want to pay a bit more attention to make sure the unsupported Universe at least gets enough love to not be a mess at release time.
[12:43] <ajmitch> you wouldn't be able to recruit another 50 MOTUs for us, would you?
[12:43] <infinity> No, but there are ways to make it workable.
[12:44] <ajmitch> ogra: might be time to put out a recruitment mail to the users & devel lists
[12:44] <ogra> yup
[12:44] <infinity> Keep your diffs from Debian very small, make sure meges are something that you can do in 5 minutes, not an hours.
[12:44] <infinity> (And I mean to smack someone around about the diff thing too)
[12:44] <Lathiat> which diff thing?
[12:44] <Lathiat> ajmitch: we both need to harass people into sending appropriate patches to debain
[12:44] <Lathiat> err, debian
[12:45] <infinity> I've seen many MANY MOTU uploads now that add a patch system for the sake of adding a 4-line patch to the Debian source.
[12:45] <LaserJock> what about having a level of contribution below MOTU for people to join?
[12:45] <LaserJock> MOTU can be intimidating
[12:45] <Lathiat> infinity: well, thats the advise lots of people seemed to be giving out...
[12:45] <infinity> So, instead of 4 lines in the diff.gz, you now have a 4-line patch, a build-dep on dpatch (debian/control), and a diff to debian/rules.
[12:45] <infinity> Seems counter-productive to me.
[12:45] <Lathiat> i thought so to
[12:45] <Lathiat> but others didn't seem to think so
[12:45] <ajmitch> infinity: yes, we've been discussing that
[12:45] <infinity> ajmitch : I can merge a package with a 4-line Debian-Ubuntu diff in about 3 seconds.
[12:46] <infinity> ajmitch : One with debian/rules and debian/control mangled is more likely to conflict and cause Real Work to happen.  Ew.
[12:46] <ajmitch> yep
[12:46] <ajmitch> I've done a number of uploads with just applying the patch, rather than using dpatch
[12:46] <crimsun> what about changes to source?
[12:47] <ajmitch> crimsun: that can still be separated out without dpatch
[12:47] <infinity> crimsun : What about them?... That's what the diff.gz is FOR.
[12:47] <infinity> The only time it makes sense to use a patch system is when there's already one there in Debian.
[12:47] <crimsun> infinity: that's what I use; if there's one in place, I use it.
[12:47] <infinity> (Or when we have a LOT of changes between Debian and Ubuntu, but that's terribly rare, and usually only happens in main)
[12:47] <Lathiat> on that note, it should be required in the debian policy ;)
[12:48] <crimsun> there are some packages that already use dpatch that are simply unmaintainable if I apply the changes directly to the source without using dpatch
[12:48] <ajmitch> crimsun: that's fine, they already use dpatch
[12:48] <Lathiat> crimsun: as infinity said, if it already uses dpatch its fine
[12:48] <infinity> crimsun : Well, yes, obviously.  If the packages uses a patch system, use that.
[12:48] <infinity> crimsun : I'm saying, don't ADD one.
[12:48] <ajmitch> most of the patches we did were for gcc 4.0 issues
[12:49] <Lathiat> hopefully alot of that will clear up in dapper
[12:49] <crimsun> ok, so I misunderstood the intent, and I was following the guidelines all along. Nothing new, nothing to see here. :-)
[12:49] <infinity> The gcc-4.0 patches shold all clear up in dapper, or mostly so.
[12:50] <infinity> The libGL changes are something we'll have to carry for anothe release, probably, unless gravity gets Xorg 7.0 in Debian the day it's released upstream.
[12:50] <infinity> Aside from gcc-4 and libGL, we shouldn't have that many diffs.
[12:50] <Lathiat> mm, theyre a bit of a hassle
[12:50] <Lathiat> because those lines have a habbit of changing
[12:51] <Lathiat> = effort :)
[12:51] <infinity> Indeed.
[12:51] <infinity> I'm hoping we can get them sorted in Debian ASAP, so you can drop your patches there.
[12:51] <ajmitch> and those few dbus-using packages
[12:52] <ajmitch> another large set we carry is for default python version 
[12:52] <LaserJock> what is the general policy about sending ubuntu patches to Debian maintainers? If I make a *ubuntu1 or something like that should I be emailing the Debian maintainer?
[12:52] <Lathiat> LaserJock: well, it depends
[12:52] <doko> ajmitch: python will clear up as well
[12:52] <Lathiat> whether it applies to debian or not
[12:52] <infinity> python versions in Debian shuld jump soon.
[12:52] <ajmitch> doko: will debian go for 2.4 or 2.5 as default?
[12:52] <Lathiat> e.g. libGL, dbus dont
[12:53] <infinity> LaserJock : If you're fixing a bug that applies to Debian too, please forward it to them.
[12:53] <ajmitch> doko: I haven't heard any rumours of a shift, but I haven't kept track
[12:53] <doko> ajmitch: first 2.4
[12:53] <infinity> LaserJock : If it's Ubuntu-specific (ie: packaging related), obviously don't.
[12:53] <LaserJock> ok, that is what I figured, I just wanted to clear that up
[12:54] <ajmitch> doko: great, that'll ease the merge load then
[12:55] <infinity> Universe should ideally deviate from Debian as little as possible, or you guys will be up shit creek.
[12:55] <Lathiat> any ideas on dates for python?
[12:55] <infinity> 1000 Debian developers can be reasonably helpful, but not if we keep reinventing the wheel with a couple dozen MOTUs.
[12:55] <Lathiat> also dbus sicne thats now in experimental
[12:56] <Lathiat> just wondering about initial merging efforts being wasted
[12:56] <infinity> It mostly comes down to Debian release managers trying to manage transitions one or two at a time, so sid -> etch testing migration doesn't become such a massive tangle that nothing moves.
[12:57] <infinity> So, dbus will probably get a green light once the C++ transition looks good, etc.
[12:57] <infinity> Debian moves a bit slower than Ubuntu with this sort of thing, unfortunately.
[12:58] <infinity> I have a feeling doko will be pushing for the python transition pretty soon, though. :)
[12:58] <LaserJock> doko: did you fix Malone #3123 ?
[12:59] <infinity> 'Morning, daniels.
[12:59] <ajmitch> morning daniels 
[01:02] <ajmitch> lunch time, bbl :)
[01:08] <doko> LaserJock: minor
[01:08] <doko> just install python2.3
[01:09] <LaserJock> I have to install python2.3 just to get a tutorial?
[01:10] <doko> LaserJock: it's a bug, I did tell you a workaround, so what? sure, it will be fixed for dapper
[01:11] <LaserJock> well, that is what I am wondering. I was thinking of trying figure it out. I'm not personally worried about it
[01:12] <LaserJock> I was just wondering why  python-numeric-tutorial.postinst was getting python2.3 for $PYTHON
[01:32] <hughsie> ogra: night.
[01:55] <BenM> mdz, on the wireless bug, i'm having trouble finding a linux laptop that's not a dell 600m
[01:55] <BenM> is there anything i can do with the affected laptop now?
[04:08] <bddebian> Hello
[04:08] <tritium> hey bddebian 
[04:10] <ajmitch> hello bddebian 
[04:10] <bddebian> Heya tritium, how's it going?
[04:10] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch 
[04:10] <tritium> not bad, yourself?
[04:13] <bddebian> OK thanks
[04:51] <dieman> lamont: poke
[05:16] <daniels> i thought breaking your blog was relatively difficult to do, but then I read planet.u.c and realise that the same ten entries from \sh are at the top again
[05:18] <Amaranth> daniels: do something to change a timestamp and it's planet \sh
[06:50] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: any thoughts on 17343?  It's basically "dpkg barfs if user in statoverride doesn't exist", or just close it as user error?
[06:52] <Keybuk> probably right for it to barf, it can't do what you said
[06:52] <Keybuk> and that might be critical for security, etc.
[06:52] <Keybuk> *reads*
[06:52] <Mithrandir> it might be refiled as "userdel should check for user in statoverride file" and wishlisted instead.
[06:52] <Keybuk> possibly
[06:52] <Mithrandir> possibly deluser instead of userdel, though
[08:06] <pitti> Good morning
[08:08] <daniels> moin pitti
[08:08] <Amaranth> daniels: is X in breezy really that bad?
[08:09] <daniels> Amaranth: it's held together by alarming amounts of duct tape.  it's not long-term supportable; i think that it works is a minor miracle that should result in a payrise for me.
[08:09] <Amaranth> haha
[08:10] <Amaranth> any guess on when 7.0 will actually release? from the sound of it waiting for 7.1 would be better
[08:10] <Burgundavia> daniels, would it have been saner to release a monolithic 6.8.2 and to wait for 7.0 for dapper?
[08:11] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: 7.0 was supposed to make it in time for breezy, with time to spare
[08:11] <jsgotangco> 7.0 it'll be fun
[08:11] <HiddenWolf> Burgundavia, I guess someone needed to make the plunge and break it up, learn from the experience, and get upstream better about it. :)
[08:12] <Burgundavia> ya, that is what I figured
[08:13] <daniels> Burgundavia: the plan was to do 7.0 for breezy; it was only after we'd gone far far far far too far to go back that it was decided to defer the rest of 7.0 to dapper
[08:13] <Amaranth> yeah, i think we were the guinea pigs for modular X :)
[08:13] <daniels> Amaranth: 7.0 is supposed to release 'soon'.  we're hoping for rc1 this week.
[08:13] <HiddenWolf> well, only gripe i've got with breezy is that it hardlocks the system when I try running the binary nvidia drivers. Worked out damn well. Props to Daniels. :)
[08:14] <daniels> Amaranth: after it was decided that we weren't going to do X for breezy, I more or less stopped release-related work on 7.0 (you have no idea how not fun it is), and we started pursuing a less aggressive schedule.
[08:14] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, besides, the changelogs where a blast to read. :)
[08:14] <daniels> HiddenWolf: heh, thanks
[08:15] <Amaranth> i guess i never paid attention to them
[08:15] <Amaranth> just "works", "doesn't work, time to pin and hack"
[08:15] <daniels> in any case, I can't imagine needing to support the monolithic tree for three years
[08:15] <Amaranth> *shudder*
[08:15] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, daniels is an artist when it comes to changelogs. :)
[08:15] <Lathiat> HiddenWolf: well mine dont hard lock, but i get no 3d :)
[08:16] <Lathiat> yeh daniel changelogs are great
[08:16] <Lathiat> daniels: so, how, exactly, did you stitch al of that cruft from X together such that it works?
[08:16] <bob2> you should totally compile debugging symbols into the module and file a bug
[08:16] <bob2> oh WAIT
[08:16] <daniels> should put that on my resum: 'changelog artistry'
[08:16] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: I used to do fun stuff like that but I'm too lazy to think up good things to say.
[08:16] <daniels> Lathiat: 'badly'
[08:17] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, make it more fun for us groupies, be creative.
[08:18] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: but the only package in ubuntu i touch is smeg, not much to work with there
[08:18] <Amaranth> i suppose i could swear a lot...
[08:18] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, fix up something cool for me.
[08:19] <HiddenWolf> like, ehm, uwh. *tries to think of something cool and useful that's not default ubuntu yet*
[08:20] <Amaranth> all of the redhat config tools i was working on got ubuntu replacements
[08:20] <jsgotangco> oracle
[08:20] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:20] <Amaranth> they made me swear a lot anyway
[08:20] <HiddenWolf> who needs oracle. :)
[08:20] <bob2> is smeg in Debian yet?
[08:20] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, who needs redhat.
[08:20] <Amaranth> bob2: maybe?
[08:20] <Amaranth> bob2: I haven't tried getting it in.
[08:20] <jsgotangco> HiddenWolf, Amazon uses it? heh
[08:21] <bob2> due to lack of interest or time?
[08:21] <Amaranth> a little of both
[08:21] <HiddenWolf> jsgotangco, their loss. :)
[08:21] <jsgotangco> yeah right
[08:21] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:21] <Amaranth> i wrote it for ubuntu specifically, it seems other distros all like to hack things differently and anything running GNOME 2.10 is a nightmare
[08:22] <bob2> is smeg obsolete in 2.6.12 then?
[08:22] <bob2> er
[08:22] <bob2> "gnome 2.12"
[08:22] <Lathiat> no because the inbuilt one sucks
[08:22] <Amaranth> no, 2.12's gmenu-simple-editor only lets you show/hide existing entries
[08:22] <Amaranth> this is why breezy uses smeg instead :)
[08:23] <bob2> so there's no current way to edit menus at all in sid, and in experimental the method is crap?
[08:23] <bob2> mind if I ITP it then?
[08:23] <Amaranth> if you want
[08:24] <Amaranth> but it doesn't have any translations and 0.8 is nearing release (for the 3rd or so time)
[08:24] <Lathiat> Amaranth: you away from college or something?
[08:24] <Amaranth> Lathiat: Nope, I just finished one of my projects in 2 days, it was supposed to take 2 months. :)
[08:24] <Lathiat> lol
[08:25] <Amaranth> It's fun knowing more HTML than the teacher.
[08:25] <Lathiat> haha
[08:27] <HiddenWolf> daniels, btw, is there any way to get my thumbbuttons working (mouse) without imwheel?
[08:27] <Amaranth> 3 months to make a 5 page website, we were supposed to learn a tag and add it to our site as we went
[08:27] <Amaranth> err, 2 months
[08:27] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, LOL
[08:27] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: Just Works for me. :-P
[08:27] <bob2> what degree is this?
[08:27] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: evdev is rumoured to work, too
[08:27] <Amaranth> tech school is a joke
[08:27] <bob2> ah
[08:28] <Lathiat> my cisco course (1st year) isnt so bad
[08:28] <Lathiat> multimedia was a joke
[08:28] <Lathiat> java is a pain in the ass
[08:28] <Amaranth> but you have to do well in high school or at least, you know, finish to get into a regular school ;)
[08:28] <daniels> HiddenWolf: probably, with Option "Buttons" "12" or some crap in xorg.conf
[08:29] <bob2> Lathiat: the only thing I know about cisoco training is some of my friends became CCNAs without knowing about CIDR
[08:29] <bob2> which disturbs me deeply
[08:29] <Lathiat> we do cidr stuff
[08:29] <Amaranth> sounds like MSCE
[08:29] <Lathiat> in ccna1 in fact
[08:29] <Lathiat> they probably  just forgot it
[08:29] <Lathiat> and muddled through the exam somewhow
[08:29] <Lathiat> :)
[08:29] <Mithrandir> bob2: the first cisco course is dead easy.  The next one isn't.  Afaik, at least.
[08:29] <bob2> ah
[08:30] <bob2> Lathiat: this was a few years ago
[08:30] <Lathiat> yeh CCNP is harder
[08:30] <Amaranth> which reminds me, i'm also Word, Excel, and Powerpoint 2000 certified, whatever that means
[08:30] <ajmitch> poor fellow
[08:30] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, that you're an MS-lackey, and hopelessly out of date? ;)
[08:30] <Amaranth> well, i am on windows right now...
[08:31] <HiddenWolf> *shakes head*
[08:32] <Amaranth> i'm broke so i've got windows only dialup (some compuserve knockoff) and a windows only modem
[08:33] <Lathiat> heh joy
[08:33] <HiddenWolf> Youch.
[08:33] <Lathiat> stick it in a qemu and run winroute and route in and out of it. :)
[08:34] <Amaranth> hmm
[08:34] <Amaranth> that would be...awesome
[08:36] <Amaranth> got a link? google just gives me junk about firewalls
[08:36] <Lathiat> cisco finally fixed their vpnclien tfor linux
[08:36] <Lathiat> to use an interface
[08:36] <Lathiat> rather than eating kernel packets going out the ethernet interface at the kernel level and firing them over the vpn
[08:36] <Lathiat> except they eat packets goign out *all* interfaces
[08:36] <Lathiat> so i cant use bluetooth networking, etc
[08:36] <Mithrandir> Lathiat: use vpnc instead?
[08:36] <Lathiat> Mithrandir: doesn't work at my uni
[08:36] <Lathiat> somethign aout tcp tunnels
[08:37] <Mithrandir> ook.
[08:37] <Lathiat> Amaranth: yeh winroute is a combined firewall/route/other shit for windows
[08:37] <Mithrandir> route through a qemu instance or some other crack, then.
[08:37] <Lathiat> havent used it in years tho
[08:37] <Lathiat> Mithrandir: well i could do it in a windows qemu
[08:37] <Lathiat> Mithrandir: but i couldnt do it in a linux one
[08:37] <Mithrandir> oh, why?
[08:37] <Lathiat> (because itd eat the ethernet im trying to route through!)
[08:37] <fabbione> hmmm
[08:37] <Lathiat> but they fixed it anyway now
[08:38] <Lathiat> in 4.6 or whatever
[08:38] <bob2> that's really quite fucked
[08:38] <Amaranth> winroute sounds like an expensive wrapper around Internet Connection Sharing
[08:38] <Lathiat> only just last week tho
[08:38] <fabbione> there was a nice hole in the Cisco VPN client that was dead easy to exploit
[08:38] <Lathiat> bob2: i thought so
[08:38] <bob2> unless they use route tags or something
[08:38] <Lathiat> Amaranth: yeh but it actually does proper routing, i suppose ICS could do it
[08:38] <Amaranth> i think the main thing is getting qemu access directly to the hardware
[08:38] <bob2> however you're supposed to route ipsec on 2.6
[08:38] <Lathiat> Amaranth: its pci right?
[08:38] <Lathiat> Amaranth: (qemu does that)
[08:38] <Amaranth> yeah
[08:38] <Amaranth> this is getting better and better :)
[08:39] <bob2> I dispute your use of "better" for a plan involving both running windows and letting qemu poke pci devices!
[08:39] <pef> hello
[08:39] <Lathiat> bob2: hehe
[08:40] <Amaranth> bob2: It means internet on linux, it's better than xchat for windows and tortoisecvs
[08:40] <Lathiat> Amaranth: are you developing smeg on windows? ;p
[08:40] <Lathiat> python, gtk2 for windows and cygwinX? ;)
[08:40] <Amaranth> nope, i reboot to work on it
[08:40] <Lathiat> ah
[08:40] <Lathiat> poor soul :)
[08:41] <Lathiat> well i figure
[08:41] <Lathiat> its probably more productive
[08:42] <Amaranth> it's not
[08:42] <Amaranth> i keep playing blobwars
[08:42] <Lathiat> haha
[08:42] <Lathiat> uninstall it ;p
[08:43] <Amaranth> i'd lose all my progress :(
[08:44] <Amaranth> i beat it on easy, now i'm doing it on hard
[08:45] <Mithrandir> infinity: shall we just close 11355 as WFM?
[08:47] <Lathiat> lol "harvesting cherries and studying astro physics"
[08:49] <Amaranth> Lathiat: got any sites that explain exactly what to do?
[08:49] <Amaranth> Lathiat: or will it "Just Work"?
[08:49] <Lathiat> Amaranth: for the qemu thing?
[08:49] <Amaranth> yeah
[08:50] <Lathiat> Amaranth: you just need to setup that pci device to go into windows
[08:50] <Lathiat> and then your right ICS will probably do
[08:50] <Amaranth> go into windows is the part i don't understand ;)
[08:55] <Amaranth> ack, it requires a kernel patch?
[08:55] <Lathiat> it does
[08:55] <Lathiat> ?
[08:55] <Lathiat> that sucks
[08:56] <Amaranth> anyway, bed time
[08:56] <Lathiat> Amaranth: do you know what im doign right now? :(
[08:56] <Amaranth> what?
[08:56] <Lathiat> playing blobwars
[08:57] <Amaranth> haha
[09:03] <Amaranth> "Actually, a linux host CAN give that access, as long as it is a PCI card you are giving the guest access to - but then only the guest can use it exclusively."
[09:03] <Amaranth> yay
[09:12] <dholbach> good morning
[09:12] <pitti> Hi dholbach 
[09:12] <dholbach> hey martin :)
[09:30] <njr> Congrats, guys - Breezy is a work of art.
[09:39] <sivang> Morning all!
[09:39] <sivang> hey dholbach , pitti 
[09:40] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[09:41] <dholbach> hi sivan :)
[09:41] <sivang> hey dholbach 
[09:58] <tepsipakki> is there hope for pam >0.76 for dapper?
[09:59] <dholbach> good morning seb! :)
[10:00] <ajmitch> tepsipakki: since 0.79 is in debian, I'd say it's likely
[10:00] <seb128> hi dholbach
[10:00] <ajmitch> tepsipakki: is there something that you need in > 0.76?
[10:00] <tepsipakki> ajmitch: ok, didn't notice that..
[10:01] <tepsipakki> ajmitch: well, nothing that I can point right now ;)
[10:04] <ivoks> uh, that samba :/
[10:25] <dholbach> morning mvo
[10:25] <mvo> hey dholbach 
[10:27] <bob2> that's a lovely flower
[10:28] <ajmitch> dholbach: great photo there :)
[10:28] <dholbach> :-p
[10:28] <mvo> haha
[10:28] <jsgotangco> looks good as a wallpaper
[10:28] <jdub> STALKER!
[10:28] <jsgotangco> nice i have a new wallpaper
[10:29] <jsgotangco> time to post to planet
[10:29] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:29] <Treenaks> jdub: where?!
[10:29] <\sh> ajmitch: i can give u space + bandwidth ;)
[10:30] <\sh> ajmitch: and a nice s9y ,-)
[10:30] <ajmitch> \sh: then I'd just need content :)
[10:30] <jdub> \sh: dude, it's your blog software giving it the irrits
[10:30] <jsgotangco> sure write like mako
[10:30] <\sh> ajmitch: no I can't write your blog ;)
[10:30] <ajmitch> haha
[10:30] <\sh> jdub: NO ! s9y is rss2 conform
[10:31] <ajmitch> \sh: but I don't speak german ;)
[10:31] <Treenaks> ajmitch: Warum nicht? ;)
[10:31] <\sh> ajmitch: so...s9y is available in many different languages ;)
[10:31] <jdub> you can push valid rss2 and still be pushing stupid crap
[10:32] <\sh> jdub: do u have a debug logfile...so we can have a look in it...at least I can work around planets bug ,-)
[10:32] <\sh> jdub: i need something on how planet makes the decision what planet saw and what he will see 
[10:33] <jsgotangco> bollywood dreams...
[11:20] <\sh> hmmm...is there a small netinstall image which fits on a 16mb or < 128mb usb stick?
[11:20] <\sh> magnon: well...yes..better to say 16 > N < 128 ,-)
[11:21] <magnon> right ;)
[11:21] <hunger> When will the dapper repository go online? tomorrow?
[11:22] <bob2> hunger: /topic
[11:22] <magnon> it says about tomorrow in the topic
[11:29] <hunger> bob2: Aehm...sorry. Don't have the topic visible in this client at all times.
[11:33] <mvo> ping mdke 
[11:35] <mvo> mdke: could you please correct string 42 of update-manager in rosetta? A typo in the markup (or anyone else from the italian translations team)
[11:52] <ogra> Kamion, ping.... edubuntu DVDs are good to go (modulo ppc)
[12:38] <Kamion> Keybuk: how're we going to cope with this "you must PURGE the hotplug package!" business?
[12:40] <Keybuk> I've a planned set of specs
[12:40] <Keybuk> we really need to fix all that stuff anyway
[12:40] <Keybuk> because breezy released in a mess
[12:41] <Kamion> right
[12:41] <pitti> Keybuk: nice, you did already? to get rid of hotplug maps, etc.?
[12:41] <Kamion> ok, if you have a clue what to do, I don't really want to know ;-)
[12:41] <sabdfl> breezy released in a mess?
[12:41] <pitti> sabdfl: we still use a lot of obsolete hotplug/udev scripts and the like
[12:42] <pitti> sabdfl: we made it reasonably working, but it is no option for a 3 year desktop release
[12:42] <Kamion> Keybuk basically spent two weeks kludging it into submission ;-)
[12:42] <pitti> sabdfl: e. g. hotplug maps will become hopelessly out of date, since new hardware is developed constantly
[12:43] <sabdfl> right, we need the new devfs, right?
[12:43] <Kamion> devfs is dead ...
[12:43] <pitti> sabdfl: well, we need to get rid of this usb procfs
[12:44] <pitti> sabdfl: right now, scanners and cams access /proc/bus/usb/001/005, for example
[12:44] <Keybuk> sabdfl: little things ...
[12:44] <pitti> sabdfl: but this is braindead
[12:44] <Keybuk> like, oh, plug in any removable device before you boot
[12:44] <Keybuk> hoary it mounts and works fine
[12:44] <Keybuk> breezy goes "la la la" and ignores it
[12:44] <pitti> Keybuk: I thought we caught that?
[12:44] <Keybuk> Kamion: yup, I know
[12:44] <Keybuk> pitti: nope!  sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't
[12:44] <pitti> Keybuk: by switching back hotplug.d->hotplug?
[12:44] <pitti> bah
[12:45] <pitti> yes, things like that
[12:45] <Keybuk> pitti: no, hotplug isn't even run is the problem
[12:45] <sivang> rehi all, what's the current discussion ? :-)
[12:45] <Keybuk> because the block events happen in initramfs
[12:45] <Kamion> Keybuk: know what?
[12:45] <Keybuk> so all that userspace stacking we have doesn't get a look-in
[12:45] <Keybuk> Kamion: how to deal with it
[12:45] <Kamion> ah, right, good
[12:45] <Keybuk> Kamion: sorry, you caught me right as TAKE A BREAK! came up
[12:45] <pitti> Keybuk: ok, we should spend a fair amount of time and spec to clean this up
[12:46] <Keybuk> pitti: yes, I added lots of little ones to the BOF list ... I have a two-release (one year) plan in my head for it all
[12:47] <sivang> pitti: whose the successor for hotplug ?
[12:47] <Keybuk> sivang: udev
[01:06] <infinity> Mithrandir : May as well (re: 11355 WFM), the submitter hasn't responded to any of the WFM comments with additional info.
[01:06] <Seveas> hmm, zilla died?
[01:06] <Seveas> ignore, it's back :)
[01:07] <Riddell> Kamion: fancy reviewing some kubuntu breezy-updates sometime?
[01:08] <Kamion> Riddell: sure, send me mail
[01:09] <ogra> Kamion, saw my statement about the edubuntu DVDs above ?
[01:12] <zakame> hi all
[01:13] <Kamion> ogra: oh, yeah, briefly forgot, will sort that out now
[01:13] <ogra> Kamion, thanks :)
[01:13] <Kamion> ogra: so both amd64 and i386 have been tested in default, server, and workstation modes?
[01:13] <ogra> yup
[01:14] <zakame> what do I do if I wanted to compile an external kernel module for breezy, and breezy lacks gcc-3.3.5, which the 2.6.12 kernel was compiled on?
[01:14] <ogra> \sh, witnessed it this weekend... while we were at it we quickly worked out multiarch ltsp :)
[01:14] <fabbione> zakame: the kernel was compiled with gcc-3.4
[01:15] <ogra> Yagisan, your patch needs some fixage, but after that worked fine :)
[01:15] <zakame> fabbione: not according to /proc/version
[01:15] <Yagisan> ogra: what was wrong ?
[01:15] <fabbione>  cat /proc/version 
[01:15] <fabbione> Linux version 2.6.12-9-amd64-k8 (buildd@king) (gcc version 3.4.5 20050809 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 3.4.4-6ubuntu8)) #1 Mon Oct 10 13:13:36 BST 2005
[01:15] <ogra> Yagisan, we dont have our chroot in ~/ ;)
[01:15] <fabbione> i read 3.4 there
[01:16] <fabbione> zakame: the kernel compiler is forced.. there is no way it could have been built with 3.3
[01:16] <ogra> Yagisan, i fixed the second script snippet you have in the patch... once i reviewed and tested more, i'll add the updated version to the bug
[01:16] <fabbione> not by us at least
[01:17] <zakame> fabbione: wait, gcc-3.4 isn't shipped in the cd :((
[01:17] <pitti> zakame: neither are the kernel sources
[01:17] <Yagisan> ogra: oops - thank's for catching the typo
[01:18] <zakame> pitti: not the sources, but the headers are ;)
[01:18] <pitti> zakame: right
[01:18] <Mithrandir> infinity: it's your bug, so I'll leave it to you. :-P
[01:18] <pitti> zakame: but shipping two compilers on the CD would even more be a waste than shipping one
[01:19] <infinity> Mithrandir : Bah, if you leave it to me, I'll be inclined to DTRT by installing this Netware trial I downloaded and testing.
[01:19] <zakame> pitti: but shipping no compiler where the kernel is built on is also unsettling ;(
[01:19] <infinity> Mithrandir : Best if you close it before I have to do that. :0
[01:20] <pitti> zakame: so what, you can easily download it
[01:20] <pitti> zakame: the CDs are already tight enough
[01:21] <infinity> The past argument for compiler+headers on the CD has always been that if your network requires a custom-compiled kernel module, you're screwed.
[01:21] <zakame> pitti: that would be fine for my current setup, but think about other setups where downloading isn't easy
[01:22] <infinity> I have a feeling breezy's lack of kernel compiler has more to do with it not being explicitely seeded, because we always used to ship "gcc" and the headers (and probably still do)
[01:22] <Kamion> yeah
[01:22] <Kamion> neither explicitly seeded nor (build-)depended-upon
[01:22] <pitti> zakame: I know, but we need to fit a good desktop on the CD, we can't ship all development stuff, too
[01:22] <Lathiat> i had that issue at uni the other day
[01:22] <Lathiat> needed to compile a cisco pn client
[01:22] <Lathiat> *vpn
[01:22] <pitti> zakame: but you can use the DVDs if you need everything off-line
[01:22] <Lathiat> and couldnt get to an archive unless i did
[01:23] <pitti> zakame: also, maybe we can build future kernels with the default compiler again
[01:23] <zakame> pitti: that could do, but i'm a wimp and i don't have a dvd drive at hand :(
[01:23] <zakame> i am saving up for a dvd combo drive though :)
[01:24] <fabbione> Kamion: well the kernel must B-D on gcc-3.4 and it does..
[01:24] <pitti> zakame: compiling your module with 4.0 doesn't work?
[01:24] <Lathiat> pitti: no, why should it?
[01:24] <Lathiat> the kernel is compiled with 3.4
[01:24] <pitti> Lathiat: so what?
[01:24] <Lathiat> and trying to load a module compiled with 4.0 the kernel will bark at you
[01:25] <zakame> pitti: works, but the versioning detection of the kernel prevents it to work
[01:25] <pitti> Lathiat: oh, I didn't know that - there is no intrinsical reason why it should
[01:25] <pitti> probably just a safety measure then
[01:25] <Lathiat> pitti: yeh the kernel includes gcc version and some other stuff in the module
[01:25] <Lathiat> you can override it
[01:25] <infinity> You can always force insertion, if you really need something to work.
[01:25] <infinity> But it'd still be nice to have kgcc on the CD.
[01:26] <zakame> hmmm, pardon my ignorance, but how do I do force insmod again?
[01:26] <infinity> Too late for breezy at any rate, so not much point in whining about it.  I suspect one or more of us will remember for dapper.
[01:26] <Lathiat> modprobe -f
[01:26] <Lathiat> no idea about insmod
[01:26] <zakame> Lathiat: thanks :D
[01:26] <zakame> infinity: hopefully :)
[01:27] <zakame> so, the other solution for breezy would be to get linux-sources and kernel-package, right?
[01:28] <Lathiat> is it possible dappers kernel might be compiled with gcc4?
[01:28] <infinity> Unlikely.
[01:29] <infinity> I doubt that gcc4 will like the kernel (or the kernel like gcc4) any more with the next minor revision of each.
[01:31] <doko> infinity: good idea, but that should be built from a separate source. I don't mess around with kernel maintainers, which compilers should be used
[01:55] <fabbione> doko: give us a compiler that builds on all arches first :P
[01:58] <mvo> Kamion: would the debdiff in #17946 something for breezy-updates?
[02:00] <doko> fabbione: I thought spaaarc did release, so it must have a compiler :-P
[02:01] <zyga> morning
[02:01] <Kamion> mvo: the translation breakage is annoying
[02:01] <Kamion> can we fix just the error and leave the broken message for dapper?
[02:01] <mvo> Kamion: right, that can be fixed by leaving the old (potential incorrect) error message
[02:01] <zyga> mvo: hi :-)
[02:02] <zyga> mvo: I've got something to show you :)
[02:02] <mvo> zyga: I hope something nice :)
[02:02] <zyga> mvo: yes :)
[02:02] <zyga> a mockup of new gui tool for translation providers :-)
[02:02] <zyga> ATM I've got a glade file
[02:02] <mvo> zyga: I'm curious :)
[02:03] <zyga> :>
[02:03] <zyga> mvo: I can give you the .glade if you want to have a loook now :)
[02:04] <mvo> zyga: yes please. either mail it to me or put it on the web somewhere :)
[02:05] <zyga> mvo: just mounting /www
[02:05] <zyga> mvo: or better
[02:06] <zyga> mvo: how about a tla/baz/bzr archive?
[02:06] <zyga> which one do you prefer?
[02:06] <zyga> mvo: pick one and msg me, I need to grab some food 
[02:07] <mvo> zyga: bzr please
[02:07] <zyga> mvo: okay, one secon
[02:08] <zyga> mvo: http://www.suxx.pl/ubuntu/gnome-translation-providers
[02:08] <zyga> I didn't ever publish any bzr archive so tell me if it works
[02:08] <zyga> I did an import+commit
[02:09] <zyga> and then cp -R to /www/... 
[02:09] <mvo> zyga: looks good, just "bzr get" it. there is a "bzr push" plugin that may be interessting for you to publish your changes
[02:10] <zyga> mvo: how to get the push plugin?
[02:10] <zyga> any .deb to pull?
[02:10] <mvo> zyga: it's in jeff bailys archive 
[02:10] <fabbione> doko: right :) just dont' break it more :P
[02:10] <zyga> mvo: apt-source if you may :-)
[02:10] <zyga> ...
[02:11] <zyga> sources.list line if you may :)
[02:12] <sivang> HI mvo :) , this is waht I rolled on last night inspired by my bug report , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneClickI18n
[02:12] <sivang> s/HI/Hi/
[02:12] <mvo> zyga:  deb  http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr ./
[02:12] <Mithrandir> pitti: what do I need to twiddle to get back my old permissions in /proc/bus/usb?  This was changed fairly late in the breezy cycle, iirc?
[02:12] <pitti> Mithrandir: actually not, it works that way since warty
[02:13] <pitti> Mithrandir: what are your "old" permissions?
[02:13] <doko> fabbione: it's not X ;-P
[02:13] <mvo> sivang: oh, thanks. looks like a lot of people are interessed in this
[02:13] <Mithrandir> pitti: some g+rw at least.  I don't want to run gpg as root to access my openpgp card.
[02:13] <pitti> Mithrandir: uh, I only ever dealt with libsane and libgphoto, not with other USB crack
[02:15] <Mithrandir> pitti: .. what was the fix in sane?
[02:15] <sivang> mvo: yes I know :) 
[02:15] <sivang> mvo: this would also help me reduce 90% of the noise about that over my local community
[02:15] <pitti> Mithrandir: the real fix is to drop all these hotplug scripts, usermaps, and accessing of /proc/bus/usb by apps
[02:15] <zyga> mvo: bzrtools?
[02:15] <zyga> that's the packge?
[02:15] <mvo> zyga: yes
[02:16] <pitti> Mithrandir: and instead use udev to create a proper device in /dev, and make libsane/libgphoto use it
[02:16] <sivang> zyga: what's the gnome-translation-providers app going to do?
[02:16] <zyga> sivang: ah, that's a long story
[02:16] <Mithrandir> pitti: and the "I just want this to work, dammit" fix is just to what the hotplug scripts?
[02:16] <zyga> sivang: check my blog for initial idea: http://www.suxx.pl/blog/index.php/next-generation-l10n-system/
[02:16] <mpt> arg
[02:16] <pitti> Mithrandir: libsane intermediately switched to a hotplug.d script, which brkoe
[02:17] <zyga> sivang: g-t-p will be a end-user tool for manipulating translation providers
[02:17] <zyga> sivang: update-manager will be upgraded to support them
[02:17] <mvo> Kamion: fix for #17946 updated, can/should I upload? or wait a bit and see if something else comes up for gksu?
[02:17] <Mithrandir> pitti: etc/hotplug is teh new and shiny now, right?
[02:17] <pitti> Mithrandir: so I switched it back to /etc/hotplug/usb/libsane, as in hoary and warty
[02:17] <zyga> okay
[02:17] <pitti> Mithrandir: no, it is even older than hotplug.d
[02:17] <zyga> I'll be back in an hour :-)
[02:17] <zyga> comments welcome
[02:17] <pitti> Mithrandir: but both ways are obsolete
[02:17] <mvo> zyga: are you on planet.ubuntu ?
[02:17] <zyga> mvo: no I need to be a member for that
[02:17] <pitti> Mithrandir: this usb file system will disappear in the kernel (in .14?)
[02:18] <mpt> zyga: What's a use case for wanting to change the translation providers?
[02:18] <zyga> mvo: I'd love to be a member BTW :-)
[02:18] <mpt> Is there a spec on it?
[02:18] <Mithrandir> pitti: *sigh*, what's the newfangled way to do it?  Add a udev script in /etc/udev/rules.d?
[02:18] <pitti> Mithrandir: and udev with proper /dev nodes is the way to go (it was just too late for breezy)
[02:18] <mvo> zyga: and you aren't? come to the next CC meeting then
[02:18] <pitti> Mithrandir: yes
[02:18] <zyga> mvo: will do
[02:19] <Mithrandir> pitti: are those scanned on each udev event, so I can just hack it, or do I need to reboot and such?
[02:19] <zyga> mpt: trivial use case: I'm paid by an organization to translate evolution, they need to get up-to-date messages every day, after my work is done I can upload everything upstream
[02:19] <zyga> mpt: another use case: I collaborate with a group of friends and provide translations for interesting applications, upstream denies updates as they feel our work is insignificant/bad
[02:20] <zyga> mpt: a group of translators, say gnomepl.org is providing easy-to-get translations for all gnome apps
[02:20] <zyga> mpt: you dont want to trust the distributor to pick every signle translations - you can pick them yourself and then send upstream if you whish
[02:21] <zyga> mpt: another use case: ubuntu is using clean upstream translations and then provides an overlay for all ubuntu-specific strings
[02:21] <zyga> mpt: that's not all obviously but I hope you get the idea anyway :-)
[02:21] <mpt> hmm
[02:21] <mpt> yeah
[02:21] <zyga> I'll be back in one hour
[02:21] <zyga> c'ya then
[02:21] <mpt> it just seems really complicated to me
[02:21] <mpt> tchau
[02:23] <pitti> Mithrandir: and read sysfs attributes to decide about the device class, instead of playing catch-up with silly hotplug maps
[02:28] <Mithrandir> pitti: hmm, but then I suddenly need inode numbers and other silliness, don't I?  Or I can possibly wrangle it out from /sys?
[02:28] <pitti> Mithrandir: why inode numbers?
[02:28] <Mithrandir> pitti: because dev nodes have them?
[02:29] <pitti> Mithrandir: erm, I don't understand
[02:29] <Mithrandir> pitti: I'll just fiddle around and see what I manage to break. :-)
[02:29] <pitti> Mithrandir: you ask udev to create a /dev/usbscanner0 for a new USB scanner
[02:29] <pitti> Mithrandir: and query device class etc. from sysfs
[02:29] <desrt> pitti; g'morn
[02:29] <Mithrandir> pitti: yes, but I supposed it needs major/minor number?
[02:30] <Kamion> mvo: go ahead and upload; it'll sit in a queue for a bit anyway :-)
[02:30] <pitti> Mithrandir: yes, of course
[02:30] <pitti> Hi desrt 
[02:31] <pitti> Mithrandir: not sure whether they are already defined
[02:31] <mvo> Kamion: ok, I'll upload to 'breezy-updates' then, thanks
[02:31] <pitti> Mithrandir: there are definitively numbers for SCSI scanners
[02:31] <Mithrandir> pitti: this is an USB smart card reader. :-)
[02:31] <pitti> Mithrandir: but I'm not sure about camera scanners
[02:31] <pitti> Mithrandir: no idea about those, sorry
[02:33] <Lathiat> umm, with XFS, the equivalent of 'user_xattr' works by default right?
[02:33] <Mithrandir> pitti: it says driver -> ../../../../../../../bus/usb/drivers/usbfs/, though.. That looks suboptimal
[02:41] <jdub> Keybuk, Diziet: what's the current thinking about the alternative proposal on http://www.dpkg.org/Triggers ?
[02:43] <Keybuk> "current thinking" ?
[02:44] <pitti> Mithrandir: this shift did only take place in kernels recently
[02:44] <jdub> Keybuk: you know, those noises in your head
[02:45] <bob2> like headaches with pictures
[02:46] <Keybuk> jdub: to be honest, I put no further thought into it after writing it down after debconf
[02:46] <Keybuk> "not for dapper" :p
[02:47] <jdub> was discussing just that with some of the RH guys during the summit
[02:47] <Keybuk> I like it, but I'm also not convinced
[02:47] <Keybuk> it's a bit mad
[02:47] <Keybuk> come to my LCA talk <g>
[02:47] <hughsie> pitti: you got a minute?
[02:47] <jdub> asked Kamion if it were sane,  he pointed out that it was alreayd there
[02:48] <Keybuk> it does seem like the kind of thing the package manager could do, doesn't it
[02:49] <hughsie> ogra: help!
[02:49] <jdub> Keybuk: and only requires a tidbit of configuration from single, tool-owning packages
[02:50] <jdub> rpm has hacks in it for stuff like this
[02:50] <jdub> rpm itself
[02:50] <Keybuk> right
[02:50] <Keybuk> I've looked at rpm a lot recently
[02:50] <Keybuk> for example rpm's evil stuff to deal with 32-bit/64-bit shit
[02:50] <jdub> the only bit i was concerned about was ownership of generated files
[02:51] <Keybuk> I have a personal distaste for anything "hard-coded" like taht
[02:51] <bob2> rpm doesn't have multiarch either?
[02:51] <Lathiat> whats that apt-cache command that prints out available versions
[02:51] <Lathiat> like the hidden one
[02:51] <Lathiat> with a girls name
[02:51] <bob2> policy
[02:52] <bob2> or madison
[02:52] <Lathiat> madison, thats the one
[02:52] <Keybuk> apt-cache madison
[02:52] <Keybuk> though policy gives more info
[02:52] <Keybuk> elmo: which madison is that named after ?!
[02:53] <sivang> lol
[02:53] <jdub> avenue!
[02:53] <lamont> dieman: eep
[02:54] <Kamion> ogra: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/breezy/release/ - link added from releases.u.c too
[02:55] <Kamion> Keybuk: Madison Michele according to katie/docs/README.names
[02:55] <Kamion> sivang: it's hardly "hidden" - it's in the man page, although admittedly not in the --help output
[02:59] <jdub> Keybuk, Kamion: hmm, alternative triggers is interestingly related to proposed classes functionality
[02:59] <Keybuk> noticed that too, eh <g>
[02:59] <Keybuk> "when doc installed into <path>, run scrollkeeper"
[03:03] <dieman> lamont: was wondering how big the scc archive is.
[03:06] <infinity> dieman : Less than half the size of the FCC archive, at a guess.
[03:06] <infinity> Or, wait.  No.  More than half.
[03:07] <infinity> dieman : You could just run a --dry-run rsync and see.
[03:08] <infinity> dieman : Note that ports doesn't have source, so it's just 3 binary arches (with fewer packages built, and fewer released versions than the FCC arches)
[03:12] <dieman> ahh, k
[03:12] <dieman> thanks
[03:12] <dieman> i was asking lamont because he was asking for a us mirror 
[03:12] <dieman> it shouldn't be a huge problem
[03:13] <jdub> infinity: s/FCC/supported/
[03:15] <infinity> jdub : FCC is easier to type, and dieman knew what I meant.
[03:15] <mdke> Kamion, is the TB the correct place for a proposal for an ubuntu-docs update or can/should it be done by approaching you/mdz/A.N.Other?
[03:15] <jdub> evil language :)
[03:15] <Kinnison> it is sat saying "no installable kernel was found"
[03:16] <nomed> nvidia driver let me use just 800x600 res on toshiba satellite laptop (i should use 1024x768)
[03:16] <Kinnison> this is very odd indeed
[03:16] <Kinnison> any clues?
[03:18] <Kinnison> Kamion: ^^
[03:18] <Kamion> mdke: the TB seems like overkill; we have an established policy for -updates
[03:18] <nomed> the card is GeForce4 420 Go 
[03:18] <Kamion> mdke: probably best to mail mdz
[03:18] <infinity> nomed : Does it work with the 'nv' driver?
[03:18] <nomed> infinity: yes
[03:18] <Kamion> Kinnison: look for base-installer: in /var/log/syslog
[03:18] <Kamion> Kinnison: chances are that 'apt-get update' failed to read from the CD
[03:18] <mdke> Kamion, alrighty, i'll do that
[03:19] <mdke> Kamion, is the policy documented?
[03:19] <Kamion> mdke: I think mdz restates it virtually every time the subject comes up on -devel ...
[03:19] <mdke> Kamion, i'll have a search then
[03:19] <infinity> nomed : Try 'Option IgnoreEDID "1"' in your xorg.conf
[03:19] <Kinnison> Kamion: what do we try for fixing that?
[03:19] <Kamion> it's something like "simple, obvious, and safe", or something similarly like what you'd expect for updates to a supported release
[03:20] <infinity> nomed : In the Device section.
[03:20] <Kamion> Kinnison: first confirm that that's actually the problem
[03:20] <zyga> re
[03:20] <zyga> modem died again, argh :/
[03:20] <Kinnison> Kamion: seems to be
[03:20] <Kinnison> Kamion: "apt-update failed: 1"
[03:20] <Kinnison> s/-//
[03:20] <Kamion> Kinnison: second, standard advice is (a) burn at a lower speed if possible, (b) invest in disc/drive cleaning kit
[03:20] <Kinnison> s@//@/ /@
[03:20] <Kinnison> Kamion: right
[03:20] <nomed> infinity: ok
[03:20] <mdke> Kamion, ok i think we ought to be able to satisfy that :)
[03:21] <Kinnison> Kamion: we'll try, thanks
[03:21] <Kamion> Kinnison: the installer gives that advice in some other situations, but there are so many places where a failed CD read can kill things ...
[03:21] <Kinnison> right
[03:23] <jbailey> jdub: ping?
[03:23] <jdub> jbailey: pong
[03:25] <zyga> mvo: when is the next CC meeting?
[03:25] <mdke> zyga, a week tomorrow, see the wiki page
[03:25] <mvo> zyga: 25.10 it seems (see topic in #ubuntu-meeting)
[03:29] <pitti> Kamion: do you happen to have the ssh GSSAPI patch (CAN-2005-2798) easily available?
[03:29] <pitti> Kamion: if not, I can pull it from upstream cvs (not a problem), but maybe I can save the effort
[03:35] <Kamion> pitti: mailed
[03:35] <pitti> Kamion: thanks a lot
[03:54] <zyga> yay, crappy new exploit for firefox/thunderbird/epiphany/ and everything else based on gecko
[03:55] <pitti> zyga: ?
[03:55] <zyga> pitti: slashdot
[03:55] <zyga> pitti: works and locks the browser in endless htmlparse loop
[03:55] <zyga> tested on ff/epiphany 
[03:56] <zyga> looks fixable though (check the attached source)
[03:56] <zyga> BTW: what *is* based on gecko/
[04:00] <trulux> heya
[04:00] <pitti> Hi trulux 
[04:01] <trulux> pitti: heya! I've been looking for you the last two weeks!
[04:01] <trulux> How's it going?
[04:01] <elmo> infinity/lamont: is b-at still in the buildds to-do list?
[04:01] <pitti> trulux: well, I was online throughout the day
[04:01] <Kamion> zyga: depressingly short exploit code there
[04:01] <infinity> elmo : Yes.
[04:01] <elmo> good good
[04:02] <infinity> elmo : I meant to discuss that with you, but I'm assuming doko already has?
[04:02] <elmo> hum?
[04:02] <infinity> elmo : We wanted to build gcc-4.1 on all arches, pre-seed the b-at chroots with it, and have you do an import.
[04:02] <elmo> with one buildd per arch?
[04:02] <trulux> pitti: you should join the ubuntu-hardened channel, we are much more active now and need your word
[04:02] <elmo> in any event - no prob for me
[04:03] <infinity> elmo : won't take that long... Just not as fast as the last build.
[04:03] <elmo> pitti: WORD TO YOUR MOTH... oh never mind
[04:03] <pitti> trulux: I could not yet review your latest  packages, I was (and am still) too busy 
[04:03] <infinity> elmo : But there's a catch.  We want to actually upload and save the binaries this time, so we can test them.
[04:03] <elmo> infinity: just don't do it yet - I need to do a mini-micro-petite b-at partial run, to get some test uploads for daniel
[04:03] <trulux> pitti: I see, no worries. But be prepared for a bunch of good news
[04:03] <trulux> :)
[04:04] <elmo> infinity: we can do that, I guess
[04:04] <infinity> elmo : Yeah, s'cool.  It's not urgent, though we may want to do it in time for UBZ, so we can disuss the results there when deciding on toolchain stuff.
[04:04] <elmo> dude, UBZ is like 9 days away - you'll bearly get main built, even if we start now
[04:06] <infinity> 12 days, but yeah.
[04:06] <infinity> Just main would be fine for discussion purposes.
[04:06] <infinity> (If it's building during UBZ, that's also fine, it's not like we'll be taxing the buildds with anything ELSE while we're all at the conference)
[04:06] <zyga> Kamion: that's a good sign
[04:08] <bddebian> Hello
[04:08] <jbailey> 12 days?  Phear.
[04:08] <bddebian> 12 Days 'til what?  UBZ?
[04:08] <Treenaks> yeah
[04:09] <Treenaks> bddebian: commies? where?
[04:09] <bddebian> Aren't all you "Free Software" types communists? ;-)
[04:09] <jbailey> bddebian: If you have problem with Soviet Canuckistan, then Soviet Canuckistand has problem with you.
[04:11] <jdub> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutopackageIntegration
[04:11] <jdub> !!!!
[04:11] <zyga> jdub: autopackage strikes again ;-)
[04:11] <dholbach> jdub: sounds like a famous last words...
[04:12] <dholbach> oh that page really exists :)
[04:12] <zyga> lol
[04:12] <Treenaks> jdub: om
[04:12] <Treenaks> jdub: omg, even
[04:12] <zyga> pitti: who is in contact with ff upstream?
[04:12] <jdub> well, there is a bunch of stupid crap on the bofs page anyway
[04:13] <pitti> zyga: Diziet might be, but I'm not sure
[04:15] <zyga> Diziet: ping
[04:15] <Keybuk> doko: when are you updating the Python in Debian to 2.4 ?!
[04:17] <Yagisan> please please don't do autopackage - it's bound to be a support nightmare
[04:17] <zyga> Yagisan: let's support autopackage by providing a third-party-native-hook
[04:17] <Keybuk> don't worry, if anyone seriously suggests AutoPackage, I know where I can get an AK-47
[04:17] <zyga> either third party builds native debs for given distro
[04:17] <Keybuk> and I'll shoot their balls off
[04:17] <zyga> or autopackage says 'sorry, go away'
[04:17] <Treenaks> Keybuk: only their balls?
[04:18] <Keybuk> Treenaks: do you know how much pain a bullet to the testicle can cause?
[04:18] <zyga> Keybuk: AK-47?
[04:18] <Treenaks> Keybuk: a lot, no doubt
[04:18] <Yagisan> If It integrated into apt I would not worry - but it spews crap everywhere
[04:18] <Keybuk> then they'll beg for one to the head
[04:18] <doko> Keybuk: talking with the release-team: not before kde is in testing
[04:18] <mdke> what if they are a woman?
[04:18] <Yagisan> It's not hard to maintain a 3rd party repo - I maintain 3rd party ubuntu repos
[04:18] <Keybuk> heh
[04:18] <Treenaks> mdke: they have sensitive places as well ;)
[04:19] <mdke> true
[04:19] <Keybuk> mdke: I credit the fairer sex with more intelligence than to suggest it :p
[04:19] <Yagisan> can you imagine on #ubuntu - I installed a backported firefox via autopackage and my system is hosed - help wahhhhh
[04:20] <mdke> Keybuk, see the BOF posted by jdub
[04:20] <Treenaks> Yagisan: People already do that
[04:20] <Yagisan> Treenaks: at least they can downgrade with apt
[04:22] <Keybuk> mdke: which one?
[04:23] <mdke> Keybuk, AutopackageIntegration
[04:24] <Keybuk> mdke: right, that's what I was refering to
[04:24] <Keybuk> sorry, I thought for a second that you meant jdub had _suggested_ such a BOF
[04:24] <Keybuk> and I was going to have to kill a friend
[04:25] <zyga> pitti: it's fixed in 1.5.x
[04:25] <mdke> no, no
[04:25] <pitti> zyga: great, let's hope that they backport it quickly
[04:30] <infinity> pitti : Will I get any support from you if I propose a "MinimisingDuplication" spec, focusing on removing as many duplicate apps/libs from main as we can (multiple versions of libdb, libmysqlclient, libpng, local/static copies of zlib, pcre, libdb, libneon, etc...)?
[04:30] <dholbach> infinity: + gnome1 :)
[04:31] <pitti> infinity: you will have my full support :-)
[04:31] <infinity> Do we have much gnome1 stuff in main still?
[04:31] <pitti> infinity: add libnss3 and libnspr4 :-)
[04:31] <Kamion> infinity: not a lot in main; the chief user in universe is gnucash
[04:31] <bddebian> Hehe, gnucash
[04:31] <jdub> xmms in main :|
[04:32] <Diziet> I'd quite like to get rid of gs-esp.  Do we know why it's still hanging around ?
[04:32] <bddebian> How about we move to the unstable/development branch of GNUCash?? ;-)
[04:32] <infinity> Diziet : Because gs-gpl doesn't support all the same crap, apparently.
[04:32] <infinity> Diziet : A gs-esp based on the current gs-gpl version would be nice, at least.  A unified package would be nicer.
[04:33] <elmo> ironically theonly thing that d or b-d on gs-esp is *-desktop
[04:33] <bddebian> ??
[04:33] <infinity> elmo : Yeah, and that's an | dep.
[04:33] <elmo> (in main)
[04:33] <infinity> elmo : gs-esp and gs-gpl are (meant to be) interchangeable.
[04:33] <elmo> infinity: oh is it?  hum, I thought melanie knew about them, but apparently not
[04:34] <infinity> We could kick -esp to universe, though, and still have the | dep in -desktop, no?
[04:34] <Diziet> What I mean is, why would anyone want gs-esp ?  breezy's gs-esp is _7.07_ !
[04:34] <Yagisan> bddebian: will that break my existing gnucash accounts ?
[04:34] <infinity> elmo : Oh, I lie, it's not an | in -desktop...
[04:35] <elmo> yeah, I was going to ask how the auto-meta-creation stuff created an | 
[04:35] <Diziet> 7.07 is hopelessly full of crashy stuff.
[04:35] <infinity> So, if you install gs-gpl, you have -gpl and -esp installed together.
[04:35] <Kamion> infinity: er ... -desktop doesn't do |-deps
[04:35] <Diziet> Yes, and the alternatives are set to prefer gs-esp.
[04:35] <infinity> Kamion : Yeah, I realised that after I said it.
[04:36] <Kamion> gs-esp's in desktop as a consequence of the germinate workaround to make sure we put only one gs-* on CDs
[04:36] <Kamion> I don't really care which it is - it was a doko thing, IIRC
[04:36] <infinity> Diziet : There's a shiny new gs-esp in sid.
[04:37] <bddebian> Yagisan: No, we should be able to get better HCBI/aqbanking support :-)
[04:37] <Yagisan> bddebian: Good, I don't particularly want to get reamed by the tax department if I update then lose access to my accounts.
[04:37] <bddebian> Of course TB would probably hunt me down and kill me too ;-)
[04:37] <infinity> Diziet : Based on gs-gpl 8.15, which is also the current sid version.
[04:38] <infinity> Diziet : So, that should make patching and such easier.  But I still don't necessarily see a reason to keep both in main.
[04:38] <Diziet> inf: Yes, we might be lucky this time.  I think in general the whole gs versions thing is a nightmare.
[04:38] <Kamion> bddebian: I don't see why the TB would care about a new gnucash in dapper/universe
[04:39] <Kamion> bddebian: although shipping development versions is on your own head if it turns out badly
[04:39] <dholbach> bddebian: is xmms the only thing in main that wants gnome1?
[04:39] <infinity> Diziet : Well, if someone could convince the two upstreams to merge their respective forks again...
[04:39] <elmo> xmms doesn't use gnome1?
[04:39] <elmo> it uses gtk1
[04:39] <hunger> Is xmms even in ubuntu-desktop?
[04:39] <Diziet> Which one is the real upstream ?  esp keep taking new gs-gsl's.
[04:40] <Diziet> s/gsl/gpl
[04:40] <jdub> no, but it's in main
[04:40] <infinity> Diziet : gs-gpl is the true ghostscript upstream, but ESP (the upstream for CUPS) does heavy modification to make it more CUPS-friendly, and they include new drivers and such.
[04:40] <infinity> Diziet : At this point, they've been forking and re-merging for so long, it's almost as much fun as asking which of NetBSD or OpenBSD is the "real upstream"
[04:41] <dieman> morning.
[04:41] <Diziet> The CUPS-friendliness doesn't seem relevant any more, although it might once have been.  I mean, you can install only gs-gpl and your CUPS will still work fine.
[04:42] <Diziet> The driver thing is _really annoying_.
[04:44] <hunger> jdub: What is the criteria of something being in main? I thought it was being a dependency for one of the ubuntu metapackages?
[04:44] <Keybuk> Kamion: I was chatting to someone at LinuxWorld who said a gtk 2 version of gnucash is coming soon
[04:44] <infinity> hunger : There aren't metapackages for the "supported" seed (which determines main)
[04:45] <ogra> Keybuk, yes, since 4 years
[04:45] <jdub> hunger: xmms is a build dependency of  a package in one of the supported seeds
[04:45] <hunger> Ah, I see...
[04:46] <Kamion> Keybuk: "RSN"
[04:46] <Keybuk> the claim was by the end of the year
[04:46] <Yagisan> ogra, Keybuk - hasn't it been longer ?
[04:46] <Keybuk> I did express "yes! please!" and also reservation they'd make it <g>
[04:46] <bddebian> dholbach: How would I know? :-)
[04:47] <bddebian> Kamion: Aye, I was kinda joking :-)
[04:47] <ogra> Yagisan, Keybuk iirc they announce a gtk2 port "real soon" since 2001
[04:48] <ogra> but Yagisan might be right and its even longer :)
[04:48] <Yagisan> ogra, Keybuk: when they do port to gtk2, we'll have gtk3, 4 or 5 :)
[04:48] <ogra> heh
[04:49] <bddebian> heh
[04:49] <Yagisan> ogra, Keybuk - at least it's stable :)
[04:49] <Keybuk> so's my grandma
[04:50] <hunger> Yagisan: Now you are being unfair;-)
[04:51] <hunger> bddebian: I think all of them (plus the debian release process).
[04:53] <Keybuk> is there any reason cups still using gs ?
[04:53] <Keybuk> it would be a sweet bounty to get that converted to poppel
[04:53] <zyga> poppel?
[04:53] <Keybuk> sorry
[04:53] <Keybuk> poppler
[04:53] <dholbach> poppler :)
[04:54] <seb128> Keybuk: I though that pitti converted cups to used poppler some months ago?
[04:54] <seb128> Keybuk: cups' package has a poppler patch for sure
[04:54] <pitti> seb128: well, I converted the pdf2ps backend
[04:54] <dholbach> Keybuk: "popel" in german means bogey :)
[04:54] <jdub> ha ha
[04:54] <jdub> dholbach: as in snot?
[04:55] <dholbach> jdub: yes :)
[04:56] <jdub> dholbach: after havoc wrote libwnck, he wrote libstartup-notification - everyone was sorely disappointed that he didn't call it libsnot :)
[04:57] <dholbach> jdub: i'll have a word with him ;)
[04:57] <Keybuk> hearing havoc pronounce libwnck is an event everyone should witness
[04:57] <mvo> haha
[04:57] <Keybuk> because he goes to great and extraordinary lengths to *not* pronounce it them as everyone else
[04:57] <dholbach> we'll have a libsnot transition soon :)
[04:58] <jdub> dholbach: "the big sneeze"
[04:58] <hunger> rofl
[04:58] <mvo> Keybuk: haha
[04:58] <ogra> bless you !
[04:59] <Keybuk> I always wanted to create a libido
[04:59] <Keybuk> which is one of the few words that also comes out as a word when you do -lido
[04:59] <jdub> during the ISV bof at the gnome summit, half the room said "lib wank", the other half said "lib wink". finally, someone asked if we were talking about the same thing.
[05:00] <jdub> Keybuk: carlos is writing a library for using the system tools backends called liboobs
[05:00] <mvo> jdub: I just wanted to say that :) 
[05:00] <jdub> hooray for oobies ;)
[05:01] <zyga> uhhh
[05:01] <Keybuk> how about a porn video decoder library called libel ?
[05:01] <zyga> ... sir we need to upgrade our system and install libooobs and libwnck ... 
[05:01] <Keybuk> or maybe a usenet library
[05:01] <Keybuk> jdub: could've been worse, HP guys could've been there and called it lieb wunuck
[05:01] <dholbach> hm, p0rn-comfort depends on neither of those
[05:04] <jbailey> ajmitch: *poke*
[05:07] <sivang> zyga: lol, carlos garnacho wasn't sure about this name, but eventually due to the big support from me, and a couple of other guys on #gst, the name stuck :)
[05:08] <zyga> sivang: gst?
[05:08] <zyga> sivang: ?? :)
[05:09] <zyga> sivang: lib oobies?
[05:09] <sivang> zyga: actually it's liboobs IIRC
[05:10] <sivang> zyga: http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/liboobs/
[05:11] <dholbach> zyga: gnome-system-tools
[05:11] <bddebian> Fuck I hate my job. /me begs for job at Canonical ;-P
[05:12] <sivang> bddebian: join the club ;-)
[05:12] <zyga> bddebian: I'll be your sidekick
[05:12] <bddebian> zyga: :-)
[05:12] <zyga> bddebian: just feed me with remains from your trash can
[05:12] <zyga> bddebian: are you an ubuntu member
[05:13] <bddebian> zyga: I'm supposedly an MOTU ;-)
[05:13] <sivang> zyga: ROTFL
[05:14] <zyga> working for cannonical is not reallistic
[05:14] <zyga> moving to UK?
[05:15] <zyga> besides
[05:15] <zyga> filling all those activity reports ;-)
[05:15] <bddebian> Heh
[05:16] <bddebian> Hey, we can work remotely can't we? ;-)
[05:16] <zyga> OTOH it's be the only company I know that pays for sitting on an irc channel ;-)
[05:16] <zyga> s/ be//
[05:16] <bddebian> heh
[05:17] <hughsie> any of you guys help me with a UI problem (gnome-power-manager)?
[05:17] <mjg59> hughsie: Can give it a go
[05:18] <hughsie> as i think it was brought up as a concern for ubuntu...
[05:18] <bddebian> Oh shit, can we vote for you now mjg59? :-)
[05:18] <zyga> arrrgh, why oh why cannot the pallete in glade-2 be minimalized !!!
[05:18] <hughsie> mjg59: give me your worst :-)
[05:19] <hughsie> i was wondering specifically about the "always show in the panel"
[05:19] <hughsie> and the "show full devices" bit too
[05:19] <Diziet> I tried to vote for mjg59 but launchpad broke.
[05:19] <Diziet> (To be fair I hadn't logged in yet and when I did it worked ...)
[05:19] <hughsie> http://gnome-power.sourceforge.net/gnome_power_prefs.php
[05:19] <bddebian> NeverMind, done
[05:22] <Kamion> zyga: are you under the impression that all Canonical employees live in the UK?
[05:22] <mjg59> hughsie: Hmm. Sorry - which bit are we looking at?
[05:23] <hughsie> The new version has more options for displaying the icon in the tray
[05:23] <zyga> Kamion: yes... so I'm wrong :)
[05:23] <hughsie> i.e. when to display and when not to display
[05:23] <hughsie> what makes sense?
[05:23] <hughsie> display the ac icon when battery is fully charged, or show the battery with a full charge?
[05:23] <ogra> Kamion, thanks for the DVD work :)
[05:23] <mdke> zyga, it depends how you define UK
[05:23] <mjg59> hughsie: Hmm. Good question.
[05:24] <zyga> uhhh
[05:24] <zyga> how the hell do I force a label with long long text to fill the entire box it's in and NOT wrap after 40 words???
[05:24] <mjg59> hughsie: I think the behaviour of the battery applet is sensible - an ac icon that changes when you're done charging
[05:24] <zyga> mdke: and how should I define it?
[05:25] <jbailey> mdke: Canada and Australia are only commonwealth. =)
[05:25] <hughsie> so when the battery is charged, we show just the ac_adapter?
[05:25] <jbailey> We're not *actually* part of the UK. =)
[05:25] <mdke> zyga, if you include both americas, asia and australasia, and all of europe, we're nearly there afaics
[05:25] <zyga> ;-)
[05:25] <bddebian> jbailey: I thought you are a part of France?
[05:25] <zyga> mdke: darn colonies
[05:25] <jbailey> mdke: And ISTR the Americans wasting a whole bunch of perfectly good tea over the issue a little while ago.
[05:26] <mdke> heh
[05:26] <mdke> what a waste of tea
[05:26] <hughsie> mjg59: so when the battery is charged, we show just the ac_adapter?
[05:28] <jbailey> ogra: Either the UK or France would suit me.  I'd love to have an EU passport. ;)
[05:29] <ogra> what do you gain with a EU passport over a canadian one ? 
[05:29] <jbailey> The ability to work in Europe.
[05:29] <jbailey> I've wished a few times to go and spend a year or two there.
[05:30] <jbailey> Diziet: jblack has a bunch of comparisons of bzr vs. mercurial.
[05:30] <mdke> the UK is in the EU?
[05:31] <jbailey> mdke: IIRC, a UK passport gives work priviledges on the mainland.
[05:32] <mdke> jbailey, yes it does, for a certain period of time, i was just kidding
[05:32] <jbailey> Sorry, thought that was a perl script. =)
[05:33] <mjg59> hughsie: I think there needs to be some indication that you're on ac
[05:33] <hughsie> there's already the curly adapter like http://gnome-power.sourceforge.net/images/gpm-taskbar.png
[05:37] <mjg59> Yeah. I think something like that indication is good (though I'm not keen on that specific artwork)
[05:37] <Diziet> jbailey: Ooh.  Do you have a handy ref. or shall I google ?
[05:37] <jbailey> Diziet: I don't.  Try pinging him, he lives in te US and might be awake.
[05:41] <infinity> hughsie : Am I the only person who'se complained that the g-p-m icons look overly cartoonish compared to other taskbar icons?
[05:41] <hughsie> infinity: they were done for diana fong for bluecurce
[05:41] <hughsie> *bluecurce
[05:41] <hughsie> you know what I mean..
[05:41] <hughsie> i'll happily ship other icons
[05:43] <infinity> I need to sit down with andyfitz at UBZ and talk icons with him.
[05:43] <infinity> I'd like to replace g-p-m's icon set, GAIM's, and network-manager's.
[05:44] <infinity> When I replace the net applet and the battstat applet with n-m and g-p-m, I feel like I'm using a completely different OS, the style difference is that striking.
[05:45] <hughsie> infinity: if you do some icons, do them in svg
[05:45] <mjg59> Yeah. Bluecurve is a lot more cartoony than the standard gnome icon set
[05:45] <mjg59> infinity: Can you replace gaim instead, please?
[05:45] <infinity> Hah.  What with?
[05:45] <mjg59> Something that works
[05:45] <bddebian> heh
[05:46] <infinity> WFM.
[05:46] <mjg59> Something that doesn't crash whenever my panel gets restarted, something with a UI that doesn't make me scream in anguish, something that integrates well with the rest of my OS
[05:47] <tseng> gajim is getting nicer
[05:47] <tseng> if you are cool with jabber transports vs native protocol
[05:47] <infinity> The only two bugs I feel an urge to fix is the breaking/crashing on panel restart, and the "insists on having a taskbar entry for the buddy list" thing.
[05:48] <hughsie> so infinity: i would love some more icons :-)
[05:48] <Keybuk> speak to andyfitz
[05:48] <Keybuk> he's good at icons
[05:48] <infinity> hughsie : I'll see if I can whip andyfitz into action.
[05:48] <Keybuk> just not at delivering them <g>
[05:49] <infinity> Alternately, my girlfriend kinda likes playing with vector art, maybe I'll sic her on some icons.
[05:49] <infinity> But, yes, I'd love icons for g-p-m and n-m that match the default GNOME icon set, so I'll see what can be done.
[05:49] <zyga> cool
[05:49] <zyga> suspending on my laptop works just like ripping the battery and the power cord at the same time
[05:49] <infinity> The cartoony theme just doesn't do it for me.
[05:50] <hughsie> zyga: not cool.
[05:50] <hughsie> infinity: thanks
[05:50] <zyga> hughsie: no, not cool at all
[05:51] <hughsie> zyga: what happens if you use the /sys/power interface? the same?
[05:51] <zyga> hughsie: I never did, tell me what to do
[05:52] <hughsie> zyga: echo mem > /sys/power/state
[05:52] <zyga> hughsie: testing in 30 secs
[05:53] <mjg59> Keybuk: Scream at ATI
[05:53] <infinity> Suspend is so snazzy on my laptop it hurts.
[05:53] <infinity> I still can't figure out why hibernate suddenly stopped loving me, though.
[05:53] <Keybuk> mjg59: sadly I don't expect they'd listen
[05:53] <mjg59> Or get me a dump of the registers under Windows
[05:54] <Keybuk> I have no idea how to install windows on here
[05:56] <jbailey> infinity: We can step through it together if you'd like.
[05:57] <infinity> jbailey : Sure.  Let me prepare myself for Constant-Reboot-Mode
[05:57] <infinity> (ie: stop surfing pr0n)
[05:57] <jbailey> infinity: =)
[05:58] <jbailey> infinity: Oh, admit it, you were reading FAILED build logs.
[05:58] <zyga> yay
[05:58] <zyga> I did see some acpi interrupt messages
[05:58] <zyga> then everything died again
[05:58] <zyga> hughsie: no luck 
[05:58] <Keybuk> if somebody has a CD drive that 
[05:59] <Keybuk> fits an hp docking thingy, then we should do it at UBZ :p
[05:59] <jbailey> infinity: First thing, grep ^RESUME /etc/mkinitramfs/initramfs.conf
[06:00] <infinity> jbailey : Yeah, that's fine, same thing it's been set to for months (RESUME=/dev/sda2, which is my swap)
[06:00] <hughsie> zyga: kernel bug?
[06:00] <zyga> hughsie: beats me
[06:00] <zyga> hughsie: anything else I can echo there?
[06:00] <infinity> jbailey : Note that this failed not only on my existing "ripe" installation, but on a fresh installation done to another partition.
[06:00] <jbailey> infinity: Lovely.  Next step is to reboot, add break to the kernel command line
[06:01] <jbailey> infinity: That'll drop you into the initramfs-tools
[06:01] <jbailey> err
[06:01] <jbailey> initramfs
[06:01] <zyga> hughsie: the exact thing was like that: some message with progress bar, some acpi interrupt stuff, something else, powerdown
[06:01] <zyga> hughsie: is this logged anywhere?
[06:01] <infinity> jbailey : Sec.  Let me power up the auxiliary laptop so I can stay on IRC.
[06:01] <jbailey> infinity: 'kay
[06:01] <jbailey> infinity: While you're here.
[06:01] <jbailey> I'll get you to cat /sys/power/resume
[06:02] <infinity> 8:2
[06:02] <infinity> Or, you want me to do that after I reboot? ;)
[06:02] <jbailey> No, now is right.
[06:02] <zyga> hmm what is that file?
[06:02] <jbailey> So that also tells us that it's setting it correctly.
[06:02] <zyga> mine has 0:0
[06:02] <jbailey> Can you suspend rather than rebooting?
[06:02] <jbailey> And then bring it up without quiet and splash, but with break ?
[06:03] <infinity> jbailey : Yep, that was the plan.
[06:03] <jbailey> zyga: That tells the kernel where to hibernate to.
[06:03] <infinity> jbailey : I assume you mean s/suspend/hibernate/ :)
[06:03] <zyga> jbailey: where does the system hibernate anyway? I have no swap file around
[06:03] <jbailey> zyga: If it's not set, the kernel will hibernate to your swap, but it's a hint that initramfs-tools doesn't know how to resume
[06:03] <infinity> zyga : If you have no swap, it doesn't hibernate.
[06:03] <zyga> ah, that's why it keeps crashing ;-)
[06:03] <jbailey> zyga: It needs a swap partition.  We can't resume from a swapfile.
[06:04] <jbailey> infinity: Whatever.  Suspend to disk. =)
[06:04] <zyga> infinity: does the swap partition need to be exactly the same size as ram?
[06:04] <infinity> Alright, screen to the rescue.  Laptop-of-doom on IRC.
[06:04] <jbailey> zyga: I usually use double on most systems, and triple on low-memory systems.
[06:04] <infinity> zyga : Or bigger.
[06:04] <zyga> I've got 512 megs and 509 swap :/
[06:04] <zyga> that's a rather bad bad luck
[06:05] <zyga> okay I need to run
[06:05] <zyga> c'ya guys
[06:05] <zyga> I'll try to repartition my laptop today and try again
[06:06] <infinity> Man, the panel on this Toshiba is PAINFUL.
[06:06] <infinity> I can't believe I took this thing to UDU.  Imust have been a laughing stock.
[06:07] <Keybuk> your hat, or the laptop? :P
[06:07] <Yagisan> infinity: I didn't even have a laptop to take
[06:07] <infinity> Err, that's right.
[06:08] <infinity> jbailey : I don't think you can help me.  It doesn't look userlandish.
[06:08] <infinity> jbailey : I get the wholr "reading image data" thing, then the "stopping tasks" mojo, then... Uhh... Nothing.
[06:09] <jbailey> infinity: Mmm.
[06:09] <jbailey> infinity: I don't think my file hack has made it back into Ubuntu yet.
[06:09] <infinity> jbailey : It's like swsusp just decided that I suck, less than a month before release.
[06:09] <jbailey> But the newest version of file can tell you if there's a suspend image in the swap.
[06:09] <jbailey> Heya Carsten
[06:10] <carstenh> hi jeff
[06:10] <infinity> jbailey : If there wasn't a suspend image in it, would it even get this far?
[06:10] <mjg59> No
[06:10] <infinity> Ed Zachary.
[06:10] <mjg59> infinity: You have working swap?
[06:10] <infinity> So, I have no friggin' clue what's decided to break.
[06:10] <infinity> mjg59 : Yes.
[06:11] <infinity> mjg59 : Well, I will after I reboot from this failed resume attempt.
[06:11] <infinity> mjg59 : Same swap (same partition layout) that used to work.
[06:12] <infinity> What happens during (or right after) the "stopping tasks" progress bar thingee?
[06:12] <infinity> Am I perhaps in need of unloading some module on hibernate that's causing a hang right there?
[06:13] <mjg59> That's it resuming your previous console state
[06:14] <infinity> Hrm.  Let me try hibernate/resume from a clean, no-fb, no-X, text-only boot.
[06:14] <jbailey> infinity: Maybe kill usplash and console-* ?
[06:17] <infinity> Y'know, I bet the last time this worked was before usplash suppoted vesafb, so I was booting with vga= and no usplash...
[06:18] <infinity> But the only thing that would change is the state of vc8...
[06:18] <jbailey> infinity: The console font setter will also have started working.
[06:18] <infinity> Yes, ironically, my "fault".
[06:19] <infinity> Testing that too.  But first, just testing from a very barebones boot.
[06:20] <infinity> Dang.  Okay, hibernate/resume from a single-user, no-fb boot works fine.
[06:25] <Kamion> fabbione: where did your broken-out partman-auto-lvm diffs disappear to?
[06:26] <fabbione> Kamion: *cough*i think i trashed them by mistake*cough*
[06:27] <fabbione> Kamion: well i guess i will have to take care of the merge later on
[06:27] <fabbione> Kamion: but most of them are not suitable for upstream
[06:27] <fabbione> given that they were using lvm2 only commands
[06:27] <infinity> mjg59 / jbailey : do we restore console state in userspace, or kernel?
[06:28] <fabbione> Kamion: that's what you told me at least at that time :/
[06:28] <mjg59> Kernel
[06:28] <Kamion> fabbione: I checked, upstream's happy with them now
[06:28] <Kamion> so I suppose I will have to pick them apart piece by piece. lovely.
[06:28] <fabbione> Kamion: ah.. ok.. well the point is that it is still duplicate code.. the same as in lvmcfg
[06:28] <infinity> mjg59 : Alright, well, usplash is off the hook, I reproduced the failure without it.
[06:28] <Kamion> unless the wayback machine has it
[06:29] <infinity> mjg59 : Next step is exit 0 at the top of console-screen.sh
[06:29] <fabbione> Kamion: so if you and upstream are nmot in a hurry, we can do a proper merge tomorrow
[06:29] <fabbione> Kamion: and avoid tons of redundant code
[06:29] <mjg59> Yay
[06:29] <Kamion> nope. sigh
[06:29] <fabbione> Kamion:  i don't mind to resplit them.. really
[06:29] <Kamion> fabbione: tomorrow's fine, it's just I was about to do it today :-)
[06:30] <fabbione> Kamion: well i understand.. the patches have been there for ages and i understood they were not ready for upstream.. so i did clean up :)
[06:30] <fabbione> s/ready/good/
[06:30] <Kamion> fabbione: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2005/09/msg00210.html
[06:31] <fabbione> Kamion: ok.. just tell joeyh that i did delete them by mistake
[06:31] <fabbione> and that i will work tomorrow on a new set of more clean patches
[06:31] <fabbione> it shouldn't be a big deal
[06:32] <fabbione> actually
[06:32] <Kamion> fabbione: ah, I think google's cache has them
[06:32] <fabbione> that's what i was looking :)
[06:32] <Kamion> any way to automatically retrieve stuff from google's cache?
[06:33] <fabbione> not that i know off
[06:33] <fabbione> iirc there were about 9 patches
[06:33] <Kamion> try about three times that
[06:34] <fabbione> i can'
[06:34] <fabbione> i can't even find them
[06:34] <Kamion> http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:lzdis4VFvXMJ:people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/pal/2_to_2ubuntu1/+&hl=en&start=1&client=firefox
[06:34] <fabbione> ah cool
[06:34] <fabbione> can't you lftp on that url?
[06:34] <Kamion> no, the links aren't munged to point to the cache
[06:36] <poningru> mako: you there?
[06:36] <poningru> can I pm ya?
[06:36] <fabbione> Kamion: i guess it needs to be done by hand
[06:37] <fabbione> Kamion: but if i click on them, it still pushes me to people
[06:38] <Kamion> fabbione: there's a perl module, I'm on it :)
[06:38] <fabbione> Kamion: ahahha cool
[06:38] <fabbione> Kamion: anyway if you want to CC me in the thread
[06:38] <fabbione> we can actually discuss about a batter implementation
[06:38] <fabbione> like making functions commont to both lvmcfg
[06:39] <hkais> hello
[06:39] <fabbione> add the "can_be_lvm" tag into partman-auto reciepe
[06:39] <Kamion> fabbione: feel free to post to -boot with suggestions; the thread I pointed to was old so nobody will mind a new thread
[06:39] <Kamion> I'm just acting as a go-between at best here
[06:39] <fabbione> Kamion: ok
[06:40] <fabbione> Kamion: i will take time to write tomorrow than.. i really need to spend sometime with my wife today
[06:40] <infinity> Argh.
[06:40] <hkais> I was searching for XEN packages if they will be available in the new upcoming release.
[06:40] <hkais> It seems there won*t be support for XEN?
[06:40] <hkais> If so, how can I get involved into making pakets for XEN?
[06:41] <hkais> sorry XEN pakets for ubuntu ;-)
[06:41] <infinity> mjg59 / jbailey : Alright, commenting out console-screen.sh doesn't seem to help a bit, but doing a normal boot with no vga and no splash (so, no fb loading at all, vga16 or vesa) makes it happy.
[06:41] <Diziet> hkais: Don't tell me: just like all of those reporters, you've got hold of the top secret Xen 3.0 release :-).
[06:41] <fabbione> Kamion: oh! important.. there was a patch we did to partman-auto on which pal depends on
[06:42] <fabbione> Kamion: i remember clearly uploading that one
[06:42] <hkais> Diziet: I haven't got it?
[06:43] <Diziet> Sorry, I should stop joking with you.
[06:43] <Diziet> I've just been reading about Xen and several journalists claim that 3.0 exists but of course it hasn't been released
[06:44] <fabbione> anyway i am off
[06:44] <Diziet> hkais: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates and http://packages.debian.org/unstable/misc/xen seem relevant.
[06:44] <hkais> Diziet: hehe.... okay now I got it :-)
[06:45] <hkais> Diziet: okay as it seems for me I am too late ...
[06:46] <Diziet> Well, you're too late for Breezy, yes.
[06:46] <Diziet> But 3.0 in Dapper's Universe seems like a good bet, surely ?
[06:46] <hkais> sure 3.0 in Dapper would be very fine
[06:47] <Kamion> fabbione: easy to isolate if need be
[06:48] <hkais> Diziet: I will contact the responsible maintainer, maybe I can support him
[06:48] <Kamion> fabbione: apparently Google's cache has the index but none of the actual patches. Oh well.
[06:48] <ogra> hkais, we dont have particular maintainers for particular packages... we have teams...
[06:49] <Kamion> ... in theory
[06:49] <ogra> hkais, in case of Xen i'd contact the kernel team
[06:49] <hkais> hehe one meening in the one person team ;-)?
[06:49] <ogra> and see what you can do with the kernel guys that are MOTU
[06:49] <Yagisan> Kamion: your not team Kaimon :)
[06:50] <infinity> mjg59 : Still around?
[06:50] <ogra> Kamion, hey, i thought we even have a d-i team now :)
[06:50] <Kamion> ogra: go on, who maintains kickseed then
[06:50] <ogra> Kamion, not the d-i team ? 
[06:50] <Kamion> or firefox, say
[06:51] <dieman> wow
[06:51] <dieman> nearly crapped my pants when I saw "SSH server vulnerability"
[06:51] <dieman> on USN-209-1
[06:51] <infinity> There is no "I" in "team", but there are three of them in "infinity", which allows me to be a team for all sorts of things.
[06:51] <Kamion> ogra: nobody but me has ever made any changes to it, and I doubt anyone else understands it; my name's in the maintainer field. If somebody else wants to come along and help, great, but until then saying it's team-maintained is at best a polite fiction
[06:51] <hkais> hmm okay...
[06:51] <hkais> now I'm a little bit confused. Have I to contact the debian guys or, have I to contact the ubuntu maintainer team?
[06:52] <Kamion> there are many packages for which there is no maintenance activity in Debian, and we simply inherit the Debian packaging directly
[06:52] <Kamion> er, "no maintenance activity in Ubuntu", I mean
[06:52] <ogra> Kamion, i never give up hope ;)
[06:52] <infinity> And packages where the Ubuntu and Debian maintainer are the same, so the same person tends to handle both.
[06:53] <Kamion> ogra: it's still a bit misleading to say things like that to somebody not familiar with our processes; you should make it clear that that's an ideal not always followed in practice, otherwise you're more liable to confuse than anything else, IMO
[06:53] <ogra> hkais, contact the ubuntu kernel team... there are MOTUs among them 
[06:53] <mjg59> infinity: Hi
[06:53] <hkais> orga: thanks I will contact them
[06:53] <ogra> Kamion, at least for this particular case we actually have a team
[06:54] <hkais> orga: as soon as I find the correct email/contact
[06:54] <ogra> but otherwise you are right
[06:54] <infinity> mjg59 : Curious about findings, or want me to piss off? :)
[06:54] <dholbach> hkais: #ubuntu-kernel :)
[06:54] <mjg59> infinity: Oh, curious
[06:54] <infinity> mjg59 : If I boot with no framebuffers at all (no "splash", no "vga="), it's all good.
[06:54] <mjg59> Right
[06:54] <mjg59> I thought we'd already checked that possibility?
[06:54] <infinity> mjg59 : If I booth with vesafb, it appears to stop after the "stopping tasks" progress bar.
[06:55] <infinity> mjg59 : But the plot thickens.  With vga16fb, I get a few ACPI: PCI interrupt messages (normal resume fare), then "resume= options should be used to set suspend device............................. swsusp: Need to copy 15145 pages" then it halts.
[06:56] <hkais> dholbach: thx!
[06:56] <dholbach> hkais: de rien
[06:56] <mjg59> infinity: Ok. That suggests that it may be restarting userspace.
[06:57] <infinity> mjg59 : ... But failing miserably still.
[06:57] <infinity> Anyhow, I'll poke at it more later and see if I can figure WTF has broken.
[06:57] <infinity> For now, hibernate isn't a feature I use much anyway (especially not since suspend-to-ram actually works for menow)
[06:58] <hkais> Diziet: I have already a running environment of XEN under opensuse, but I want to switch from SuSE to ubuntu-server. But XEN is a must for the switch in my case
[06:58] <Diziet> SuSE shipped a Xen 3.0 prerelease, didn't they ?
[06:59] <hkais> as far as I know, yes
[06:59] <dieman> nice
[06:59] <dieman> thats as good as some of the redhat compiler gaffes
[06:59] <Diziet> If you don't need the 3.0 features, it's probably worth trying a straight recompile of the Debian 2.0.6.
[07:00] <infinity> jbailey : Oh, all this booting with various different command line options also leads me to believe there's a (cosmetic) bug in how you/I interpreted "quiet" in initramfs.  The output sent to usplash isn't the same as what you get on the console with no usplash.  I'll fix that in dapper.
[07:00] <Diziet> gaffe> It's quite confusing.  Lots of journos are confused.  But I think it's the Xen people's fault - they keep talking about `3.0' all the time.
[07:00] <hkais> 3.0 supports already vanderpool, which will be important for me....
[07:00] <infinity> jbailey : And once that's fixed, it also means we can remove the initial "Loading..." message, which is good, cause it messes up VC1 sometimes (again, cosmetically)
[07:01] <Kamion> dieman: pitti's description of that was just drastically confusing
[07:01] <hkais> Diziet: afaik opensuse wants to update their disrti as soon as xEN 3.0 gets public
[07:02] <Kamion> dieman: not only does it not affect openssh-server's default configuration, but it doesn't affect openssh-server *at all* unless you apply further patches
[07:02] <Kamion> (sigh)
[07:03] <Kamion> Keybuk: fancy adding Packages.gz/Sources.gz files to http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/pybaz/ ? Or is there some better location?
[07:05] <Keybuk> Kamion: I just copied those out of chinstrap/~scott/hct-daily
[07:05] <Keybuk> though that's https, which apt won't do
[07:06] <Keybuk> done.
[07:06] <Keybuk> (not that I have a shell-script to do that for any directory, or anything)
[07:07] <Kamion> ah, thanks
[07:37] <Riddell> Kamion: did you look at those kubuntu updates?
[08:01] <mdz> Riddell: if you're asking Kamion about the same changes you sent to me, I've responded to your email
[08:01] <mdz> and unless there's some emergency, I'll be the only one approving -updates
[08:03] <ogra> morning mdz 
[08:05] <mdz> morning
[08:06] <ogra> mdz, did you see, \sh and i got multiarch ltsp working over the weekend... :)
[08:06] <bddebian> Heya mdz
[08:06] <bddebian> ogra: Wow, nice
[08:06] <ogra> bddebian, there is already a patch, but that needed some changes to work right ... so it was no biggie :)
[08:08] <mdz> ogra: no, I hadn't. that's nice.  do you have a howto?
[08:08] <ogra> mdz, not yet, i'll fix up the patch and we should include it in dapper ltsp...
[08:09] <ogra> mdz, do you plan to develop on top of breezy ltsp or do you pick the mainline for dapper ?
[08:09] <mdz> ogra: breezy will only receive security and other critical bugfixes; all new development goes into dapper
[08:10] <ogra> mdz, do you plan to base dapper work on the ltsp-breezy branch ? or on the ltsp-mainline branch you have ? 
[08:10] <mdz> ogra: it would be awfully confusing to use a branch called 'breezy' for dapper, don't you think? ;-)
[08:10] <ogra> (wher do i apply my patch for merge)
[08:10] <ogra> yes, but there is a lot different in the main branch already :)
[08:11] <mdz> mainline
[08:11] <ogra> so i thought you'd probably rename the braazy branch and work on top of that one for dapper... to selectively add the features
[08:11] <ogra> *breezy
[08:11] <ogra> ah, ok
[08:12] <mdz> mainline is where new development happens; breezy was the branch created for breezy
[08:12] <ogra> yup
[08:12] <ogra> but all i did were breezy fixes for now... so i only have the breezy branch yet :) just checking out mainline...
[08:13] <ogra> bddebian, sure
[08:13] <mdz> ogra: I'm updating my mirror now with the latest mainline, patch-198
[08:13] <ogra> ok, i'll wait with the baz get
[08:14] <ogra> mdz, what about a separate ldm packge for dapper ? 
[08:14] <mdz> ogra: would be reasonable
[08:15] <mdz> mirror is updated now
[08:15] <ogra> great :)
[08:15] <bddebian> ogra: OK, what? :-)
[08:16] <ogra> lets see, i'll know more after UBZ ... curretly i'm thinking about the specs for the best audio support and for local device support... that will need testers...
[08:17] <ogra> i thought about something like a tunneled dbus connection to the thin client that uses hal/hotplug/udev to get the device access to th server for example... but thats not fully thught out ....
[08:18] <ogra> or a theora based streaming tunnel for audio, based fully on gstreamer... but thats not fully worked out either...
[08:18] <Lathiat> ogra: http://www.livejournal.com/users/davyd/151274.html
[08:18] <ogra> bddebian, we'll have BOF for both at UBZ ... so the final spec will be done there
[08:19] <mdz> ogra: our primary focus will be polishing what we have
[08:19] <ogra> mdz, local devices and sound is a must i think... adding a centralized user management too... beyond that i dont plan enhancements
[08:20] <bddebian> ogra: Yeah but by then I will probably be working on Merges ;-)
[08:20] <ogra> bddebian, do you have the HW for ltsp testing ? then grab a edubuntu. install it and help solving the unploished stuff...
[08:20] <bddebian> Heya sabdfl
[08:21] <ogra> bddebian, things like omitting error messages on thin client boot wil be one thing thats easy to solve with patches...
[08:22] <ogra> also enhancing what i have built for the new ldm would be fine (all python-gnome)
[08:23] <ogra> bddebian, huntuing down http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15244 would be a major help :)
[08:24] <bddebian> ogra: Hmm, you obviously don't know how st00pid I am :-)
[08:25] <ogra> bddebian, no need for ltsp to get the bug it also happens with normal ssh -X executed binarys...
[08:25] <ogra> bddebian, i have no clue either what that is, thats why its not solved yet... dont think im smarter here ;)
[08:29] <mdz> ogra: we will decide on local devices and sound based on what the LTSP guys have already done
[08:29] <mdz> ogra: it's not necessarily something we can build from scratch for dapper
[08:30] <ogra> mdz, yes, i already spoke to them... i'd like to have a spec for it that works a bit more integrated with ubuntu, even if we implement that ltap solution for now...
[08:30] <ogra> *ltsp
[08:32] <ogra> mdz, in fact they build something similar to my idea, but introduce a replacement for dbus to manage the communication... 
[08:32] <mdz> ogra: are you talking about what is in ltsp 4.1, or the new things they have been working on since then?
[08:33] <ogra> the new stuff i talked with jammcq about
[08:33] <ogra> mdz, if we introduce that we'll have a lot of dplicate functionallity... i'd rather like to enhance what we have :)
[08:34] <ogra> mdz, but lets keep this discussion for the edubuntu BOFs i proposed ;)
[09:10] <lamont__> seb128: you around?
[09:11] <seb128> lamont__: yep
[09:19] <HiddenWolf> Lathiat, Code of Conduct. :P
[09:19] <Lathiat> err
[09:19] <Lathiat> *hides
[09:19] <Lathiat> i hope the CoC doesn't include spelling correctly
[09:19] <HiddenWolf> Now be good and get your bullet out of my backside!
[09:20] <Lathiat> i missed anyway
[09:21] <HiddenWolf> ah, ok. /me figures out he's sitting on his mobile.
[09:22] <dholbach> bbl
[09:23] <HiddenWolf> Lathiat, so what's up?
[09:24] <Lathiat> avahi hacking!
[09:24] <HiddenWolf> avahi is the networking service thingy, right?
[09:24] <tseng> Lathiat: anything on banshee?
[09:25] <Lathiat> HiddenWolf: yeh, http://freedesktop.org/Software/Avahi
[09:25] <Lathiat> tseng: nope
[09:25] <bddebian> ogra: How am I supposed to tell from that .xsession-errors attachment which "can't open display" is the problem?  Are they all indicative of the problem?
[09:25] <Lathiat> we have daap-sharp, i guess the banshee bit hasnt been done yet
[09:26] <ogra> bddebian, it shows that a ssh connection was established... it indicates that either xauth is at fault or something with the session handling doesnt work... or that DISPLAY is wrong ...
[09:27] <ogra> but since DISPLAY should get overwritten by the ssh session it shoudlnt be DISPLAY... i'm not much further with this bug yet
[09:28] <bddebian> Is DISPLAY even getting set?
[09:28] <ogra> bddebian, yup
[09:28] <ogra> ldm calls ssh -X <serverip> /etc/X11/Xsession
[09:29] <ogra> err user@serverip indeed
[09:29] <ogra> bddebian, the thing is that i see similar symproms with something like ssh -X user@othermachine firefox (nopn ltsp)
[09:30] <ogra> so i think its something in ssh's X forwarding that is stuck... since its not only triggered by Xsession it seems
[09:30] <tseng> is DISPLAY set?
[09:30] <ogra> tseng, yes
[09:30] <bddebian> heh
[09:31] <ogra> to localhost:10.0 
[09:31] <ogra> as it should be for ssh -X 
[09:31] <ogra> i was suspecting it doesnt get freed
[09:31] <ogra> but that cant be it, since it simply gets overwritten...
[09:32] <ogra> i haven looked at xauth yet, which ssh uses for forwarede X sessions
[09:33] <tseng> Lathiat: thanks for "fixing" beagle "bug"
[09:34] <Lathiat> eh?
[09:34] <tseng> xfs xattr
[09:34] <tseng> on malone
[09:34] <tseng> yes?
[09:34] <lamont__> ogra: and the default ssh config of not forwarding X is changed?
[09:34] <Lathiat> oh, was that sarcastic? did i do something wrong?
[09:34] <tseng> no, i said thank you
[09:34] <Lathiat> ok
[09:34] <Lathiat> thanks :)
[09:34] <ogra> lamont__, since ages ? 
[09:35] <lamont__> ok
[09:35] <tseng> jdub: !!!ONE
[09:35] <ogra> at least since hoary
[09:35] <ogra> lamont__, thats not the prob... 
[09:35] <Treenaks> hi jdub 
[09:36] <ogra> lamont__, if i run ssh -X user@host x-session-manager and log out there, i cant log in with the same command for about a minute...
[09:36] <ogra> even if no bits of the X session are left...
[09:39] <jdub> no wonder irc was quiet
[09:40] <lamont__> jdub: heh
[09:41] <HiddenWolf> jdub, packed your bags yet? :)
[09:42] <jdub> hrm?
[09:42] <HiddenWolf> jdub, -nl is holding it's breath. :)
[09:42] <jdub> for me to leave?
[09:43] <HiddenWolf> *chuckle* Oh, wait. You're there already? :)
[09:43] <jdub> YEAH
[09:43] <jdub> er
[09:43] <jdub> yeah
[09:43] <sabdfl> does evolution have gpg support by default?
[09:43] <HiddenWolf> jdub, Amsterdam treating you well? :)
[09:43] <jdub> sabdfl: sort of - enter your key on the prefs page
[09:44] <jdub> HiddenWolf: it is ok ;)
[09:44] <HiddenWolf> jdub, don't do joints on the bosses time. ;)
[09:45] <HiddenWolf> *chuckle* That's the way here. Ketchup is a treat. :P
[09:46] <bddebian> ogra: Is there any chance it's just X not cleaning up well?  I.E. a ghosted process or something?
[09:47] <ajmitch> morning
[09:47] <ajmitch> jbailey: *poke*
[09:47] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[09:47] <ogra> bddebian, i didnt find any when i looked
[09:47] <jbailey> ajmitch: Heya.  You mentioned that you had initramfs-tools selinux patches for me. =)
[09:47] <ajmitch> jbailey: I did?
[09:47] <ajmitch> jbailey: I said I wanted to discuss how to do it, I haven't worked on patches yet :)
[09:48] <jbailey> ajmitch: Oh, I see. =)
[09:48] <ajmitch> sorry to disappoint :)
[09:48] <jbailey> ajmitch: Not at all.
[09:48] <jbailey> What do you need? =)
[09:48] <jbailey> I thought you had said before that most of the setup took place in init, so pre-init things didn't have to worry much.
[09:49] <ajmitch> yeah
[09:49] <ajmitch> but what runs in pre-init?
[09:49] <ajmitch> and how much more do you plan to put in there for dapper?
[09:49] <jbailey> ajmitch: Whatever people feel like putting in there, that's the trick.
[09:49] <jbailey> The hook scripts make it trivial for people to add whatever.
[09:49] <ajmitch> hm
[09:50] <sabdfl> doko: do you look after thunderbird in ubuntu?
[09:50] <ajmitch> how much of /dev is populated there at the moment?
[09:50] <jbailey> ajmitch: Much of it.
[09:50] <HiddenWolf> sabdfl, what's up with the mail clients?
[09:50] <jbailey> ajmitch: It will probably be less for dapper, but you've at least got ttys, null, and the devices for mounting.
[09:50] <sabdfl> HiddenWolf: i'm trying to ensure consistency
[09:50] <ogra> sabdfl, Mithrandir does if he didnt give it away
[09:50] <ajmitch> the trick is to have files created from initramfs to have the right security context afterwards
[09:51] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: how would you fel about making enigmail a default install with t-bird?
[09:51] <HiddenWolf> sabdfl, thunderbird is playing a far different ballgame from evo. :)
[09:51] <HiddenWolf> sabdfl, and no, no pgp, without extentions. 
[09:51] <jbailey> ajmitch: Oh, like in the /dev that gets migrated to the running system?
[09:51] <ajmitch> so either have a minimal policy before /dev is populated, or relabel them before they're accessed when policy is loaded :)
[09:52] <ajmitch> jbailey: I mainly want the system to be bootable & not open up holes accidentally
[09:52] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: that'd be fine with me.
[09:52] <jbailey> ajmitch: Right.  I don't know enough about selinux there.
[09:52] <jbailey> ajmitch: What happens right now:
[09:52] <jbailey> ajmitch: We start, mount a tmpfs on /dev, and run udevstart.
[09:52] <sabdfl> hmm... Mithrandir on second thoughts, its probably a bit too tech
[09:53] <jbailey> ajmitch: Other things can do as they see fit in there.
[09:53] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: oh, why?  It tends to keep out of the way unless you get encrypted mails?
[09:53] <jbailey> At the end of the whole thing, we mount -o move /dev /root/dev
[09:53] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: its a whole extra menu for people to get lost in
[09:53] <jbailey> So that the devices that we're using now are all present on the target system.
[09:53] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, it adds a lot of clutter to TB interface
[09:53] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: true.
[09:53] <ajmitch> jbailey: if init loads a policy in enforcing mode & device nodes aren't labelled, then things are fairly likely to head south
[09:54] <jbailey> ajmitch: Taht lets us do clever things, like have a usplash socket up, or keep debug informatio around. =)
[09:54] <ajmitch> mmm
[09:54] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: I wouldn't call it a lot of clutter, but I'm not going to argue that very hard. :-)
[09:54] <ajmitch> sounds like it could be good fun then :)
[09:54] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, first time I booted it with enigmail, I was "wtf!"
[09:54] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: you know you've lost when you "boot" your mail client. :-P
[09:54] <ajmitch> it might still be possible to pull off without anything in initramfs
[09:55] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, I usually kick it, ;)
[09:55] <ajmitch> by having the first scripts run by init doing some relabelling if selinux is loaded
[09:55] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: I'd actually be happier if somebody who uses tb a bit more than I took it over, though.  I just use it for reading the occasional HTML mail, really.
[09:55] <ogra> Mithrandir, that'd be a jbailey thing i guess... to add TB to initramfs ;)
[09:56] <ajmitch> ogra: sick
[09:56] <ogra> bblblbl
[09:56] <ajmitch> isn't initramfs going to be redundant once the kernel is rewritten in python? :)
[09:56] <HiddenWolf> lol@ajmitch
[09:56] <Lathiat> heh
[09:57] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch, I'd *love* to see you try. :)
[09:57] <crimsun> that's almost as scary a thought as Linux written in elisp
[09:58] <ajmitch> hi \sh 
[09:58] <bddebian> ooohhh X11 forwarding with putty and xming works.  You kick ass tseng
[09:58] <doko> sabdfl: not on a regular basis, just for bug reports
[09:58] <bddebian> Heya \sh
[09:59] <sabdfl> ok
[09:59] <\sh> re ajmitch 
[09:59] <\sh> hell of a day :( 
[09:59] <sabdfl> \sh: life beating up on you?
[10:00] <\sh> sabdfl: digital tv is driving me crazy...0 or 1 ... is working or not :(
[10:00] <sabdfl> \sh: where are you?
[10:00] <\sh> sabdfl: now at home
[10:01] <\sh> after busy 11h day
[10:01] <ajmitch> \sh: you need to sit down & relax with some bugfixing
[10:01] <crimsun> haha
[10:01] <ogra> come on, he relaxed the whole weekend at my place :)
[10:01] <\sh> ajmitch: I just tried to relax to spend all my tax payback
[10:01] <ajmitch> ogra: yes I heard you were all quite relaxed :)
[10:01] <\sh> hehe
[10:02] <ogra> yup, was necessary :)
[10:02] <ogra> we had a release barbecue and a lot of nice alcohol
[10:02] <ajmitch> great :)
[10:03] <\sh> ogra: bought the damn panasonic lumix fx8 in black and a 512mb sd card + a 16x dvd-r / dvd+r dual layer burner 
[10:03] <ogra> \sh, coopl
[10:04] <\sh> ogra: george is jealous..but now I lost 500  :(
[10:04] <ogra> lost ?
[10:06] <\sh> ogra: I don't need a dvd burner ;)
[10:06] <ogra> true, but its nice to have one ;)
[10:08] <bddebian> ogra: Just put a little delay in ldm and say "Loading, Please Wait" ;-P
[10:09] <ogra> bddebian, 1min delay ? 
[10:10] <\sh> bddebian: you mean echo 'Load "*",8,1' ; echo 'Loading *' echo 'Ready!'
[10:11] <lorenzod> sys 8192
[10:12] <bddebian> ogra: Sure.  We wanna be like MS don't we? :-)
[10:18] <zyga> re
[10:23] <\sh> zyga: p.u.c -> this I don't hate ;)
[10:24] <zyga> \sh: p.u.c ?
[10:24] <\sh> planet.ubuntu.com
[10:24] <zyga> :-)
[10:24] <zyga> checking
[10:24] <zyga> niceeee
[10:24] <zyga> :-)
[10:25] <\sh> zyga: hehe..it was the only thing what made me happy today :)
[10:26] <zyga> eh only hi-tech stuff is nice
[10:26] <zyga> everyday crap is depressing
[10:29] <HiddenWolf> GPG error: http://nl.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-updates Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5 Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key <ftpmaster@ubuntu.com>
[10:32] <zyga> HiddenWolf: ah, nl. frost must have broken the signature
[10:33] <\sh> HiddenWolf: which package? I had it this morning or yesterday as well
[10:34] <HiddenWolf> \sh, anything after apt-get update this morning.
[10:48] <astronut> i'm helping a friend and the upgrade from hoary -> breezy wants to remove amarok and some mesa stuff...why?
[10:48] <bddebian> OK, trying to run a full Ubuntu desktop through putty/Xming is NOT such a good idea :)
[10:49] <ajmitch> bddebian: use freenx then, I used it for several weeks while I was overseas :)
[10:49] <bddebian> ajmitch: What's freenx?
[10:49] <ajmitch> it was amazingly fast considering my 128Kbps dsl at home
[10:50] <ajmitch> compressing X proxy, essentially
[10:51] <jbailey> ajmitch: Does selinux handle labelling?
[10:52] <jbailey> ajmitch: We could just as easy say that things loaded in the initramfs need to include some basic policy hints.
[10:52] <ajmitch> jbailey: hm? there are utilities to do it
[10:52] <\sh> sabdfl: will soyuz land this evening or only tomorrow?
[10:53] <ajmitch> policy is still fairly monolithic although it's being split up & made modular now
[10:53] <jbailey> ajmitch: So those would all be included then?
[10:53] <ajmitch> if policy is loaded before files are created, they get the right label
[10:54] <jbailey> Ugh.
[10:54] <jbailey> So we'd need to regenerate the initramfs on policy changes?
[10:55] <ajmitch> jbailey: if the policy only covers things in /dev it shouldn't change often
[10:56] <ajmitch> or a similar subset of the system
[10:56] <ajmitch> you suggested concatting a cpio file on?
[10:56] <jbailey> True, that would work.
[10:57] <jbailey> Well, update-initramfs would solve it either way.
[10:57] <ajmitch> maybe something to look at when we have the code in front of us at UBZ :)
[10:57] <ajmitch> I'll try & put something together by then that works
[10:57] <jbailey> ajmitch: Bah, I want to start off UBZ with sticky notes on the right hand wall ;)
[10:58] <ajmitch> hah
[10:58] <ajmitch> I'd like to as well, but I haven't had much time to hack on this yet :)
[11:08] <Robi> crimsun , alive?
[11:08] <crimsun> yes. Ping me in #ubuntu, please.
[11:08] <Robi> can't , no reg
[11:09] <crimsun> try now
[11:09] <Robi> yay
[11:26] <tseng> bddebian: damn right
[11:26] <tseng> bddebian: xming is the coolest
[11:27] <ajmitch> tseng: what is this new crack you speak of?
[11:28] <tseng> ajmitch: its xorg for windows
[11:28] <tseng> ajmitch: with a simple installer/launcher, no cygwin hell
[11:28] <ajmitch> nice
[11:28] <ajmitch> I might need to try it
[11:28] <tseng> xming.fd.o iirc
[11:28] <tseng> google knows
[11:29] <tseng> it can run a fullscreen xnest-alike or single windows
[11:29] <tseng> just add -ac to the startup command for DISLPAY love
[11:29] <tseng> or use ssh
[11:30] <ajmitch> although I think nx is probably still better for me
[11:30] <ajmitch> to connect to home from work
[11:30] <jdub> new poll on the fridge!
[11:31] <dholbach> YAY
[11:33] <jdub> http://lwn.net/Articles/156027/
[11:33] <jdub> holy crap
[11:33] <tseng> rage, lwn
[11:33] <ajmitch> dholbach: 67/33% split? :)
[11:34] <dholbach> ajmitch: you did those 33% ;)
[11:34] <ajmitch> jdub: would be nice if I were subscribed :)
[11:34] <dholbach> ajmitch: ++
[11:34] <ajmitch> dholbach: of course :)
[11:34] <lamont__> mjg59: you around?
[11:34] <sabdfl> hmmm... how does that lwn-subscription-for-dd's magic work?
[11:35] <ajmitch> HP sponsored it, DDs are meant to mail someone
[11:35] <ajmitch> and I still haven't done that yet..
[11:36] <ajmitch> sabdfl: http://lwn.net/Articles/13797/
[11:36] <sivang> rehi all
[11:37] <ajmitch> hi sivang 
[11:37] <sivang> hey ajmitch , what's cracking?
[11:38] <bddebian> @#$@#$% subscription
[11:39] <ajmitch> sivang: not too  much :)
[11:39] <jdub> you should subscribe to lwn
[11:39] <jdub> it is worth supporting :)
[11:39] <sivang> jdub: who, me ? :)
[11:40] <jdub> everyone
[11:41] <sivang> maybe we can arrange group subscriptions like debian has ? ;-)
[11:43] <jdub> debian's subscriptions are sponsored by hp
[11:44] <sabdfl> ah, ok. /me reachs for the plastic
[11:45] <bddebian> w00t, sabdfl is buying.. ;-P
[11:49] <sivang> night all
[11:49] <dholbach> ok guys, i'm off to bed - have a nice evening :)
[11:50] <dholbach> night sivang 
[11:50] <bddebian> Gnight sivang, dholbach
[11:50] <dholbach> night barry