[12:02] Australia. [12:03] sivang, au [12:03] ah [12:03] ogra: hey, you been following hal-devel list? [12:03] ogra: are you more comfotable with XChat then irssi? [12:03] only very rough... [12:03] sivang, yup [12:03] what you make of it? [12:04] Another opinion if you will.. [12:04] hughsie, you mean "HAL is not for hardware management" ? [12:04] ogra: yes that whole thread with the *really* long emails === LaserJock [n=icechat5@ppp-69-229-206-79.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:05] just wanted an ubuntu perspective [12:05] i totaslly agree with you... had a long dispute with pitti already, because he disaGREES [12:05] whoops.. sorry for the caps [12:05] ogra: seems to have got people quite passionate [12:05] ogra: why HAL is not for hardware management ? (sorry, I haven't been following the threads just curious) [12:06] i think a "hardware abstraction Layer" should also manage hardware... work in both directions... [12:06] ogra: seems crazy to me to do it twice by two different daemons [12:06] if we have the information in hal, like acpi.battery [12:06] else i'd call it a "Hardware Information Layer" ... but we dont talk about HIL :) [12:07] then we have to decode the system type, work round bugs, lauch the update addons etc, [12:07] and then do it *again* in anothe daemon [12:07] yes, thats silly [12:07] what's pitti's take on this? [12:07] i trhin your approach is the right way... [12:07] pitti sees HIL, not HAL :) [12:07] ogra: thanks, i was starting to get worried that i was alone! [12:07] urg [12:08] i think davidz agrees too [12:08] s/trhin/think [12:08] HIL is great when you want to name a disk. [12:08] HAL is great when you want to mount that disk using crypto automatically, or change the lcd brightness [12:08] yes... pitti is our security guy, he's very cautious about possible security flaws being created through a two way HAL [12:09] ogra: i can see that too -- but then the dbus stuff lets ppl lock it down [12:09] but i thnk its the right approach [12:09] it's just a big change for the one daeom does this, another does this type way of thinking [12:09] just design it carefully, and it will be fine... [12:09] i'm not quite sure how to reply to matthias [12:10] I mean, i respect the guy, and his work is very good, but I think he is wrong. [12:10] hmm, probably wait for david to speak up [12:11] he cant ignore that thread [12:11] ogra: yes, good plan. will do. [12:11] i figured if he didn;t like the direction he wouldn't have merged my patches [12:11] and since he gives thedirection for HAL, he'd be the authorized source [12:11] (he was the one who wrote the script invokation support!) [12:12] if he does agree with me, then it will have been good to clarify what HAL is, and what it *should* do [12:12] i really think HAL must work in two directions [12:12] yes, thanks. I'm not going crazy then! [12:12] so your approach is right imho... but even inside ubuntu we have different opinions about it [12:13] yes, it's divided quite a few ppl [12:13] but then you can turn HAL back into HIL editing a few fdi files [12:13] its a hairy thing because it can always introduce security breakage if not designed right [12:13] its quite fragile... [12:13] but we need such a layer imho [12:14] yes, i know === StoneTable [n=stone@c-24-14-85-48.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:15] when you talk to pitti, can you ask him what other issues he sees using HAL as, well, HAL? === netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net === sts [n=lost+fou@hermes.ncsaut.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Traxer|off [i=traxer@shell6.powershells.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:16] hughsie, will do :) [12:17] ogra: I keep upsetting people. first the ial and FnFX guys, now mattias with ppbuttonsd! [12:17] pbuttonsd sucks a lot, but there is nothing better yet [12:18] lots of people asked for removal pre breezy here... but there is no replacement yet... [12:18] ogra: yet. there's lots of stuff i could do with HAL for PMU using the pbuttonsd code and enhancing the pmud addon, but that throws up more politics! [12:18] probably someone should encance HAL enough to replace it [12:19] I really need a powerbook laptop to borrow so i can write the pmu stuff [12:19] sure, but its the right way [12:20] ogra: what does pbuttonsd do that hal doesn't at the mo? [12:20] yes, i need one too, edubuntu ppc couldnt get released, we had not enough testers [12:20] no idea, no ppc around here [12:20] ebay... [12:20] :) [12:20] i want a really shit one with a cracked screen or something [12:21] heh [12:22] cheers for the re-assurance ogra, appreciated. [12:22] :) [12:22] thankls for all the work :) [12:23] ogra: well, it's getting to the stage where it "just works" for me [12:23] yay [12:23] i.e. i remove the acadapter and the screen gently dims [12:24] fc5 has removed battstat applet in favour of g-p-m [12:24] we'll hopefully be able to do it for dapper [12:24] ogra: cool :-) [12:24] :) [12:25] and hopefully gss to go with it :) [12:25] yeah [12:25] g-s and g-p-m play very nicely together [12:25] g-s-s is a must for dapper [12:25] g-p-m uses g-s for all the X detection stuff [12:25] i dont want to touch x-s-s again... [12:26] x-s-s is a mess.. [12:26] yes [12:26] and it wont get better [12:26] as long as it keeps its maintainer [12:27] well, it could do with some love... or a re-write... ohh wait.. [12:27] heh [12:27] if g-s-s hadnt shown up, i'd have started at least gconf integratiojn [12:27] and probably gone crazy because of it [12:27] g-s-s? [12:28] the architecture in g-s-s is sound too. [12:28] gnome-screen-saver === herzi [n=herzi@d006050.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:28] its a bit odd because of dbus though [12:28] ogra, cool [12:28] ogra, is that moving along nicely? [12:29] yup [12:29] If I'd had a working video driver, I'd sort out those screensavers. [12:29] The bad, the worse, the ugly, and the passable. In that order. :P [12:29] but integrating with acpid until g-p-m takes over will be a PITA [12:29] since you cant easily access a users dbus session as root [12:30] why would you want to integrate with acpid? [12:30] berather acpi-support... [12:30] hughsie, power down cpu and monitor after a while. [12:31] HiddenWolf: that's left to g-p-m [12:31] i'm pretty sure g-s will never do that [12:31] our hibernate tries to lock the screen for example... so you have to giver your password on resume [12:31] g-p-m does that now [12:31] thats very hard to do currently [12:32] g-p-m locks the users screen using .lock() from g-s, and then calls hal to do the hibernate [12:32] but g-p-m runst in the session... we need access from outside the session... [12:32] ogra: why must you access from the system? [12:32] guys, when currently someone chooses a language in d-i, does he get all the menus in that language after installing ? [12:32] and there the dbus api stands in the way [12:32] sivang, in german, nearly all... [12:33] ogra: so you do get all the menus in he choosen language, ok [12:33] hughsie, probably its solved with your option in g-p-m note we are on a older version in ubuntu [12:33] ogra: are you also getting a GNOME kbd selector ready to switch between english and germen? [12:33] ogra: you have a very old version [12:33] yes [12:33] upstream version freeze... [12:33] the maintianer of g-s-s only fixed the bug in dpms last week [12:34] and i only added support for locking then hibernating a couple of weeks ago [12:34] the maintainer would be me... that was mjg59 who fixed that [12:34] ogra: okay, nice one! [12:35] upstream version freeze locked the version down... that was a matter of luck that it was updated :) [12:35] good show [12:35] luck & pain ;) [12:35] in (new ubuntu devel tree) are you going to ship a more up2date g-p-m? [12:36] until UVF again... its always a matter of the release schedule.... [12:36] sure, no worries [12:36] you def shipping hal 0.5.5? [12:37] the one for dapper will probably be more strict, because we'll have 3 year support [12:37] is 0.5.5 out ? [12:37] not yet, give it a week [12:37] got *lots* of fixes form 0.5.4 [12:37] all over the shop [12:37] ogra: something we need to discuss for MOTU as well [12:37] so it wil be int i think [12:38] good :-) === TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:38] ajmitch, lets just go with the schedule for motu === ajmitch will try & set some time aside for the MOTU meeting on tursday (for me) [12:38] ogra: sure, but we'll need to put in a couple of extra milestones for us, imho [12:38] ajmitch: MOTU and the 3 years support policy that is? [12:39] otherwise we'll have a crazy time in the last 2 months again [12:39] sivang: MOTU & UVF - we want to have universe in extra-good shape for dapper [12:39] I think universe UVF would be good. :) [12:39] yes, for dapper it would [12:40] for breezy it wouldnt have been achievable [12:40] True, due to the conversions. [12:40] but people upping new versions till the release day was kinda odd. :) [12:40] A universe UVF one month after main's UVF sounds reasonable. [12:40] ogra: what are plans for MOTU stuff over UBZ? [12:40] Anyhow, need to go. bye [12:40] (Though you're welcome to freeze at the same time, if you think you'll be able to do all your syncs/merges on time) [12:40] infinity++ [12:41] we're not enough people to cope with the real dates, but a month extra sounds like a great idea [12:42] Well, I expect we may want to discuss Universe a bit at UBZ anyway. [12:42] At least, Universe for dapper. [12:42] Not Universe in general. [12:42] yep [12:42] so much good stuff that people want is in universe [12:42] In general, Universe is unsupported, archive locks down when we release, the end, sucks to be you. And I'm cool with that. [12:43] then we beg to put fixes in -updates, etc [12:43] But for a 3/5-year supported release, we may want to pay a bit more attention to make sure the unsupported Universe at least gets enough love to not be a mess at release time. [12:43] you wouldn't be able to recruit another 50 MOTUs for us, would you? === Lathiat grins [12:43] No, but there are ways to make it workable. [12:44] ogra: might be time to put out a recruitment mail to the users & devel lists [12:44] yup [12:44] Keep your diffs from Debian very small, make sure meges are something that you can do in 5 minutes, not an hours. [12:44] (And I mean to smack someone around about the diff thing too) [12:44] which diff thing? [12:44] ajmitch: we both need to harass people into sending appropriate patches to debain [12:44] err, debian [12:45] I've seen many MANY MOTU uploads now that add a patch system for the sake of adding a 4-line patch to the Debian source. [12:45] what about having a level of contribution below MOTU for people to join? [12:45] MOTU can be intimidating [12:45] infinity: well, thats the advise lots of people seemed to be giving out... [12:45] So, instead of 4 lines in the diff.gz, you now have a 4-line patch, a build-dep on dpatch (debian/control), and a diff to debian/rules. [12:45] Seems counter-productive to me. [12:45] i thought so to [12:45] but others didn't seem to think so [12:45] infinity: yes, we've been discussing that [12:45] ajmitch : I can merge a package with a 4-line Debian-Ubuntu diff in about 3 seconds. [12:46] ajmitch : One with debian/rules and debian/control mangled is more likely to conflict and cause Real Work to happen. Ew. [12:46] yep [12:46] I've done a number of uploads with just applying the patch, rather than using dpatch [12:46] what about changes to source? [12:47] crimsun: that can still be separated out without dpatch [12:47] crimsun : What about them?... That's what the diff.gz is FOR. [12:47] The only time it makes sense to use a patch system is when there's already one there in Debian. [12:47] infinity: that's what I use; if there's one in place, I use it. [12:47] (Or when we have a LOT of changes between Debian and Ubuntu, but that's terribly rare, and usually only happens in main) [12:47] on that note, it should be required in the debian policy ;) [12:48] there are some packages that already use dpatch that are simply unmaintainable if I apply the changes directly to the source without using dpatch [12:48] crimsun: that's fine, they already use dpatch [12:48] crimsun: as infinity said, if it already uses dpatch its fine [12:48] crimsun : Well, yes, obviously. If the packages uses a patch system, use that. [12:48] crimsun : I'm saying, don't ADD one. [12:48] most of the patches we did were for gcc 4.0 issues [12:49] hopefully alot of that will clear up in dapper [12:49] ok, so I misunderstood the intent, and I was following the guidelines all along. Nothing new, nothing to see here. :-) [12:49] The gcc-4.0 patches shold all clear up in dapper, or mostly so. [12:50] The libGL changes are something we'll have to carry for anothe release, probably, unless gravity gets Xorg 7.0 in Debian the day it's released upstream. [12:50] Aside from gcc-4 and libGL, we shouldn't have that many diffs. [12:50] mm, theyre a bit of a hassle [12:50] because those lines have a habbit of changing [12:51] = effort :) [12:51] Indeed. [12:51] I'm hoping we can get them sorted in Debian ASAP, so you can drop your patches there. [12:51] and those few dbus-using packages [12:52] another large set we carry is for default python version [12:52] what is the general policy about sending ubuntu patches to Debian maintainers? If I make a *ubuntu1 or something like that should I be emailing the Debian maintainer? [12:52] LaserJock: well, it depends [12:52] ajmitch: python will clear up as well [12:52] whether it applies to debian or not [12:52] python versions in Debian shuld jump soon. [12:52] doko: will debian go for 2.4 or 2.5 as default? [12:52] e.g. libGL, dbus dont [12:53] LaserJock : If you're fixing a bug that applies to Debian too, please forward it to them. [12:53] doko: I haven't heard any rumours of a shift, but I haven't kept track [12:53] ajmitch: first 2.4 [12:53] LaserJock : If it's Ubuntu-specific (ie: packaging related), obviously don't. [12:53] ok, that is what I figured, I just wanted to clear that up [12:54] doko: great, that'll ease the merge load then [12:55] Universe should ideally deviate from Debian as little as possible, or you guys will be up shit creek. [12:55] any ideas on dates for python? [12:55] 1000 Debian developers can be reasonably helpful, but not if we keep reinventing the wheel with a couple dozen MOTUs. [12:55] also dbus sicne thats now in experimental [12:56] just wondering about initial merging efforts being wasted [12:56] It mostly comes down to Debian release managers trying to manage transitions one or two at a time, so sid -> etch testing migration doesn't become such a massive tangle that nothing moves. [12:57] So, dbus will probably get a green light once the C++ transition looks good, etc. [12:57] Debian moves a bit slower than Ubuntu with this sort of thing, unfortunately. [12:58] I have a feeling doko will be pushing for the python transition pretty soon, though. :) [12:58] doko: did you fix Malone #3123 ? === infinity looks at doko. === daniels [n=daniels@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:59] 'Morning, daniels. [12:59] morning daniels [01:02] lunch time, bbl :) [01:08] LaserJock: minor [01:08] just install python2.3 [01:09] I have to install python2.3 just to get a tutorial? [01:10] LaserJock: it's a bug, I did tell you a workaround, so what? sure, it will be fixed for dapper [01:11] well, that is what I am wondering. I was thinking of trying figure it out. I'm not personally worried about it [01:12] I was just wondering why python-numeric-tutorial.postinst was getting python2.3 for $PYTHON === daysleper [n=dayslepe@216-214-118.0501.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel === crimsun_ [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:32] ogra: night. === zul [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c2-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === wasabi [n=wasabi@c-24-0-58-245.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:55] mdz, on the wireless bug, i'm having trouble finding a linux laptop that's not a dell 600m [01:55] is there anything i can do with the affected laptop now? === didymo [n=ashley@CPE-61-9-197-223.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === doko_ [n=doko@dslb-084-059-064-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marcin_ant [n=user@www.e-dev.tele2.pl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jeronim` [n=jj@203.17.19.11] has joined #ubuntu-devel === slomo_ [n=slomo@p5487F912.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #ubuntu-devel === wickedpuppy [n=wickedpu@cm25.epsilon165.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LaserJock [n=icechat5@ppp-69-229-206-79.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hunger [n=hunger@p54A621E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [i=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ikuyaLoqu [n=ikuya@gnulinux.good-day.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bddebian@pcp08717033pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:08] Hello [04:08] hey bddebian [04:10] hello bddebian [04:10] Heya tritium, how's it going? [04:10] Heya ajmitch [04:10] not bad, yourself? [04:13] OK thanks === _maydayjay_ [n=maydayja@ip101109.101.nas.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === TiMiDo [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/timido] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:51] lamont: poke === Gman_ is now known as GmanAFK === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:16] i thought breaking your blog was relatively difficult to do, but then I read planet.u.c and realise that the same ten entries from \sh are at the top again === Keybuk [n=scott@syndicate.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:18] daniels: do something to change a timestamp and it's planet \sh === PounK [n=pounk@142-217-81-161.telebecinternet.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bytee_ [n=byte@fedora/byte] has joined #ubuntu-devel === TiMiDo [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/timido] has left #ubuntu-devel ["*Poof*] === Xoff [n=mas01cr@gibbons.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=sarah@CPE-144-136-127-247.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:50] Keybuk: any thoughts on 17343? It's basically "dpkg barfs if user in statoverride doesn't exist", or just close it as user error? [06:52] probably right for it to barf, it can't do what you said [06:52] and that might be critical for security, etc. [06:52] *reads* [06:52] it might be refiled as "userdel should check for user in statoverride file" and wishlisted instead. [06:52] possibly [06:52] possibly deluser instead of userdel, though === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === `anthony [n=anthony@220-253-45-242.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-57-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bskahan [n=bskahan@dsl254-074-249.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=sarah@CPE-144-136-127-247.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Konversation] === Hirion [n=Hirion@p5487F912.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === HiddenWolf [n=HiddenWo@136.39.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Valandil [n=chrys@dslb-084-056-086-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pitti [n=pitti@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:06] Good morning [08:08] moin pitti [08:08] daniels: is X in breezy really that bad? [08:09] Amaranth: it's held together by alarming amounts of duct tape. it's not long-term supportable; i think that it works is a minor miracle that should result in a payrise for me. [08:09] haha === chris38-home [n=Christia@LSt-Amand-152-31-21-96.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:10] any guess on when 7.0 will actually release? from the sound of it waiting for 7.1 would be better [08:10] daniels, would it have been saner to release a monolithic 6.8.2 and to wait for 7.0 for dapper? [08:11] Burgundavia: 7.0 was supposed to make it in time for breezy, with time to spare [08:11] 7.0 it'll be fun [08:11] Burgundavia, I guess someone needed to make the plunge and break it up, learn from the experience, and get upstream better about it. :) [08:12] ya, that is what I figured [08:13] Burgundavia: the plan was to do 7.0 for breezy; it was only after we'd gone far far far far too far to go back that it was decided to defer the rest of 7.0 to dapper [08:13] yeah, i think we were the guinea pigs for modular X :) [08:13] Amaranth: 7.0 is supposed to release 'soon'. we're hoping for rc1 this week. [08:13] well, only gripe i've got with breezy is that it hardlocks the system when I try running the binary nvidia drivers. Worked out damn well. Props to Daniels. :) [08:14] Amaranth: after it was decided that we weren't going to do X for breezy, I more or less stopped release-related work on 7.0 (you have no idea how not fun it is), and we started pursuing a less aggressive schedule. [08:14] Amaranth, besides, the changelogs where a blast to read. :) [08:14] HiddenWolf: heh, thanks [08:15] i guess i never paid attention to them [08:15] just "works", "doesn't work, time to pin and hack" [08:15] in any case, I can't imagine needing to support the monolithic tree for three years [08:15] *shudder* [08:15] Amaranth, daniels is an artist when it comes to changelogs. :) [08:15] HiddenWolf: well mine dont hard lock, but i get no 3d :) [08:16] yeh daniel changelogs are great [08:16] daniels: so, how, exactly, did you stitch al of that cruft from X together such that it works? [08:16] you should totally compile debugging symbols into the module and file a bug [08:16] oh WAIT [08:16] should put that on my resum: 'changelog artistry' [08:16] HiddenWolf: I used to do fun stuff like that but I'm too lazy to think up good things to say. [08:16] Lathiat: 'badly' [08:17] Amaranth, make it more fun for us groupies, be creative. [08:18] HiddenWolf: but the only package in ubuntu i touch is smeg, not much to work with there [08:18] i suppose i could swear a lot... [08:18] Amaranth, fix up something cool for me. === MagnusR [n=magru@85.194.14.142] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:19] like, ehm, uwh. *tries to think of something cool and useful that's not default ubuntu yet* [08:20] all of the redhat config tools i was working on got ubuntu replacements [08:20] oracle [08:20] heh === jsgotangco hides [08:20] they made me swear a lot anyway [08:20] who needs oracle. :) [08:20] is smeg in Debian yet? [08:20] Amaranth, who needs redhat. [08:20] bob2: maybe? [08:20] bob2: I haven't tried getting it in. [08:20] HiddenWolf, Amazon uses it? heh [08:21] due to lack of interest or time? [08:21] a little of both [08:21] jsgotangco, their loss. :) [08:21] yeah right [08:21] heh [08:21] i wrote it for ubuntu specifically, it seems other distros all like to hack things differently and anything running GNOME 2.10 is a nightmare [08:22] is smeg obsolete in 2.6.12 then? [08:22] er [08:22] "gnome 2.12" [08:22] no because the inbuilt one sucks [08:22] no, 2.12's gmenu-simple-editor only lets you show/hide existing entries [08:22] this is why breezy uses smeg instead :) === JaneW [n=JaneW@wbs-146-167-38.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:23] so there's no current way to edit menus at all in sid, and in experimental the method is crap? [08:23] mind if I ITP it then? [08:23] if you want [08:24] but it doesn't have any translations and 0.8 is nearing release (for the 3rd or so time) [08:24] Amaranth: you away from college or something? [08:24] Lathiat: Nope, I just finished one of my projects in 2 days, it was supposed to take 2 months. :) [08:24] lol [08:25] It's fun knowing more HTML than the teacher. [08:25] haha === chris38-home2 [n=Christia@LSt-Amand-152-31-21-96.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:27] daniels, btw, is there any way to get my thumbbuttons working (mouse) without imwheel? [08:27] 3 months to make a 5 page website, we were supposed to learn a tag and add it to our site as we went [08:27] err, 2 months [08:27] Amaranth, LOL [08:27] HiddenWolf: Just Works for me. :-P [08:27] what degree is this? [08:27] HiddenWolf: evdev is rumoured to work, too [08:27] tech school is a joke [08:27] ah [08:28] my cisco course (1st year) isnt so bad [08:28] multimedia was a joke [08:28] java is a pain in the ass [08:28] but you have to do well in high school or at least, you know, finish to get into a regular school ;) [08:28] HiddenWolf: probably, with Option "Buttons" "12" or some crap in xorg.conf [08:29] Lathiat: the only thing I know about cisoco training is some of my friends became CCNAs without knowing about CIDR === Lathiat laughs [08:29] which disturbs me deeply [08:29] we do cidr stuff [08:29] sounds like MSCE [08:29] in ccna1 in fact [08:29] they probably just forgot it [08:29] and muddled through the exam somewhow [08:29] :) [08:29] bob2: the first cisco course is dead easy. The next one isn't. Afaik, at least. [08:29] ah [08:30] Lathiat: this was a few years ago [08:30] yeh CCNP is harder [08:30] which reminds me, i'm also Word, Excel, and Powerpoint 2000 certified, whatever that means [08:30] poor fellow [08:30] Amaranth, that you're an MS-lackey, and hopelessly out of date? ;) [08:30] well, i am on windows right now... [08:31] *shakes head* [08:32] i'm broke so i've got windows only dialup (some compuserve knockoff) and a windows only modem [08:33] heh joy [08:33] Youch. [08:33] stick it in a qemu and run winroute and route in and out of it. :) [08:34] hmm === marilize [n=marilize@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:34] that would be...awesome [08:36] got a link? google just gives me junk about firewalls [08:36] cisco finally fixed their vpnclien tfor linux [08:36] to use an interface [08:36] rather than eating kernel packets going out the ethernet interface at the kernel level and firing them over the vpn [08:36] except they eat packets goign out *all* interfaces [08:36] so i cant use bluetooth networking, etc [08:36] Lathiat: use vpnc instead? [08:36] Mithrandir: doesn't work at my uni [08:36] somethign aout tcp tunnels [08:37] ook. [08:37] Amaranth: yeh winroute is a combined firewall/route/other shit for windows [08:37] route through a qemu instance or some other crack, then. [08:37] havent used it in years tho [08:37] Mithrandir: well i could do it in a windows qemu [08:37] Mithrandir: but i couldnt do it in a linux one [08:37] oh, why? [08:37] (because itd eat the ethernet im trying to route through!) [08:37] hmmm [08:37] but they fixed it anyway now [08:38] in 4.6 or whatever [08:38] that's really quite fucked [08:38] winroute sounds like an expensive wrapper around Internet Connection Sharing [08:38] only just last week tho [08:38] there was a nice hole in the Cisco VPN client that was dead easy to exploit [08:38] bob2: i thought so [08:38] unless they use route tags or something [08:38] Amaranth: yeh but it actually does proper routing, i suppose ICS could do it [08:38] i think the main thing is getting qemu access directly to the hardware [08:38]