[07:48] <jsgotangco> hi robitaille, Burgundavia 
[07:49] <Madpilot> hi everyone
[07:49] <Madpilot> robitaille: you going to be out on the protest lines tomorrow morning?
[07:49] <jsgotangco> protest?
[07:49] <jsgotangco> for what?
[07:50] <Madpilot> our provicial gov't has tried to impose a contract on the province's teachers, and removed various collective bargaining rights
[07:51] <Madpilot> the rest of the labour movement is going to shut down the city tomorrow to remind the gov't who actually does the work in this province
[07:51] <jsgotangco> wow
[07:52] <Madpilot> http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/10/11/strike-bc-teachers051011.html
[07:52] <Madpilot> http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_bc-fed-teachers20051014
[07:53] <Madpilot> I've spent most of my weekend organizing our union local's actions for tomorrow... I'm tired, and the blasted week hasn't even really started!
[07:53] <jsgotangco> ok so victoria will be closed for business today...
[07:54] <Madpilot> tomorrow, locally, but yes, pretty much
[09:29] <jsgotangco> rob^, congratulations!
[09:35] <rob^> ?
[09:36] <jsgotangco> http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2005101401026OPDT
[09:37] <jsgotangco> "Another thing that stands out is the excellent onboard documentation, particulrly the Getting Started guide. Every tried getting Java running in Firefox in Fedora? I have, and even when I would find decent instructions out on a third-party site, I would still not have Java working. For someone who needs his local radar to go into an animated loop on Noaa.gov, this was torture."
[09:37] <rob^> oh yeah
[09:37] <rob^> thanks
[09:38] <rob^> :)
[02:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> i asked on wed/thurs last week if anyone knew when the next meeting was but there wasnt any clear idea. is there a meeting tomorrow? or is that rumor?
[02:50] <mdke> friday
[02:50] <mdke> see DocteamMeetingAgenda
[02:50] <mdke> thanks for your patience in hanging around btw Kamping_Kaiser 
[02:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> thats ok. ill make sure teh day[night]  is free :) 
[02:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> thanks mdke :) its in teh calander :D
[03:11] <Kamping_Kaiser> heh. i just got the the 'we need a meeting thread' :| sorry for noise
[03:11] <mdke> :)
[03:11] <mdke> couple of days lag on your email?
[03:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> yeh. last read thursday, started today with 700 messages+ :|
[03:13] <mdke> gd luck
[03:14] <jjesse> grin i had the same problem when i got back on saturday
[03:14] <jjesse> just finished all my messages :)
[03:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol wd
[03:14] <Kamping_Kaiser> :P
[05:07] <jbailey> mdke: Heya, sorry.
[05:07] <jbailey> mdke: Went offline for the weekend.  
[05:09] <mdke> jbailey, hi, np
[05:25] <mdke> mhz_cooking, ping
[05:25] <mdke> mhz_cooking, i don't understand your recent email, can you clarify here?
[05:30] <mhz> mdke: pong
[05:30] <mdke> hi
[05:30] <mdke> what's up?
[05:31] <mhz> "recnet email" i have just responded another one.
[05:31] <mdke> ok
[05:31] <mdke> I think that is the one I'm talking about
[05:32] <mhz> "recnet email" i have just responded another on?
[05:32] <mhz> "recnet email" i have just responded another on?
[05:32] <mhz> sorry
[05:32] <mdke> the one I'm talking about starts "Matthew East"
[05:32] <mhz> mdke: anything particular you want me to clarify on?
[05:32] <mdke> yes lots
[05:32] <mhz> hehehe
[05:33] <mdke> mhz, ok first of all, are you suggesting that subpages are a good idea, or not
[05:33] <mhz> ohhh, that.
[05:34] <mdke> second, are you suggesting that CamcelCase is a good idea, or not?
[05:34] <mdke> third, what do you mean by "sugar on top"?
[05:34] <mdke> fourth, what did I do to piss you off?
[05:36] <mdke> i didn't really understand your message in the context of the subject of that thread (wiki-forum relationship)
[05:36] <mdke> mhz, still here?
[05:37] <mhz>  /subpages are good if people involved on using them (writing and reading) are aware that there's some rules to implement them. Ideally, a wiki works 100% perfectly if it keeps horizontal layout (no subpages), because then everyone can just think of a page name and it is very likely that page actually exists. Example of diff:  EdubuntuDhcpdSetUp is very diff to DHCPServerSetUp in terms of linking pages while you write and remembering.
[05:38] <mhz> mdke: sorry I take so long to respond but I am at a keyboard I am not used to and also english is not my native one :)
[05:38] <mdke> no problem
[05:39] <mdke> thanks
[05:39] <mhz> piss me off? nop, not at all! I thought I was pissing people off by insisting on this matter :D lol
[05:40] <mdke> it was the "sugar on top" thing that made me think you were angry. And the "Matthew East" at the beginning of your email :)
[05:40] <mdke> glad to hear you're not
[05:40] <mhz> mdke: sugar on top, in terms of Please be rude if you need to, as long as I get to understand
[05:41] <mhz> and the Matthew East, just because I realized there were two Mats.
[05:41] <mhz> :)
[05:42] <mhz> now, as for the 2nd question...
[05:42] <mdke> ah ok
[05:43] <mhz> CamelCase is the most simple way to generate links. Also, if we get used to CamelCase, when we are writing, we'll get more chances to autcreate links instead of using []  symbols
[05:43] <mhz> CamelCase is simple and yet extremely effective
[05:43] <mhz> IF we use them on regular basis.
[05:44] <mdke> ok so you like CamelCase
[05:44] <mdke> and you don't like subpages
[05:45] <mdke> i have the reverse opinion, at least for documentation.
[05:45] <mhz> My perception about the "chaos" is that I have seen more than a couple of pages that are very very similar in content but with names that either are hard to remember or have []  on them. So if I needed to link them from any page, I would always have to come back and make sure of the name.
[05:46] <mdke> pages that are very very similar in content really shouldn't exist, they should be merged into one page
[05:46] <mdke> but yeah, I take your point about easy-to-remember names
[05:47] <mhz> Documentation is clearer if it has subpages, imho, when we talk about "master documentation" and not "100% public" wikis.
[05:47] <mhz> MoinMaster is lot diff from MoinWiki
[05:48] <mdke> how about question 4?
[05:48] <mdke> oh no you did that one
[05:48] <mhz> Basically, if there were agreement on Dhcp or DHCP, or Ltsp or LTSP, etc., then we'd be more organized. Also, if we knew when we can use /subpage and when we should choose PageName, we'd also have more standarized wiki docs
[05:49] <mdke> that is pretty much impossible, there is no right answer about "when" to use subpages and so on, especially because anyone can edit the wiki
[05:49] <mhz> that's my point
[05:49] <mhz> What if...
[05:50] <mhz> we had at least some simple restrictions:
[05:50] <mhz> a) You want to edit a page? Excellent! Please register and commit to these simple guidelines.
[05:50] <mdke> we may go that way in the future. However, that is not my decision to take and I have grave doubts about it
[05:51] <mhz> b) Please use CamelCase on regular Basis
[05:51] <mhz> c) Please use Acronyms in a CamelCase fashion
[05:51] <mdke> mhz, the general view of the docteam members who work on the wiki is that camelcase is not useful for documentation
[05:51] <mhz> why not?
[05:52] <mdke> because it is difficult to read, and people looking for help do not care about making the life of the wiki editors easier. The focus is on usability
[05:52] <mdke> c.f. wikipedia
[05:54] <mhz> I have worked close to one Chilean "librarian" of WikiPedia. Yes usability is an issue but they still have librarians to admin docs :)
[05:54] <mdke> indeed
[05:55] <mdke> Camelcase is simply difficult to read
[05:55] <mdke> anyhow, i don't want to get into an extended discussion on this because everyone has different opinions 
[05:55] <mhz> people looking for help can use any search method and still get to a page because Moin results are CaSe independant
[05:56] <mdke> yes
[05:56] <mdke> but when they get there, it is harder to read. Also, if they are searching by EYE, it is harder for them
[05:56] <mhz> yes, indeed
[05:58] <mhz> Hence I mentioned in my email that unfortunately, is a pity people are not used to wikis. IMHO, a wiki is the fastes way to generate and organize docs. I does have its limitations but if one understands how to bypass them, then it is a real powerfull resource.
[05:58] <mdke> i love wikis
[05:58] <mdke> have you seen the edubuntu website? you'd like it
[05:59] <mhz> Actually, I have used Moin for CMS, Address Book, Calendar, ToDo, Quotation maker, Version Controling, Translation platform, News, etc.
[05:59] <mdke> you are obsessed!
[05:59] <mhz> edubuntu? Yes, I have seen it and already loved it
[05:59] <mhz> LOL
[06:00] <mhz> I used to actively participate in Moin gang (I am big fan of simplicity when it comes to power)
[06:01] <mhz> mdke: it may logically sound "obsession", i agree. But the fact is that Moin does have a flexibility that may get people confused or may get people to just refuse it.
[06:01] <mdke> i like Moin, it's good
[06:02] <mhz> I have tried at least 5 diff wikis, and still moin beats them
[06:02] <mhz> however, I do agree that when it comes to have official documentation, then either have a "freeze" ACL for some pages or just use another tool
[06:03] <mdke> we use html
[06:03] <mhz> MoinMoin gang is using moinmaster for a frozen or offcial /data dir and moinmoin for regular basis. 
[06:03] <mdke> yes
[06:07] <mhz> I have "ported" Moin to Html with no bigger issues.
[06:07] <mhz> (moin2html does it all)
[06:07] <mhz> :)
[06:07] <mhz> Some guys are even generating PDF from moin pages
[06:08] <mhz> and they all seem to be happy
[06:08] <mhz> :)
[06:08] <mdke> sure
[06:09] <mdke> but right now docbook is the best place for us to go
[06:09] <mdke> we're not going to move to moin
[06:09] <mhz> mdke: myabe my humble point here is taht if we have this tool (moin) and we can get the most out of it, why not just give it a try?
[06:10] <mdke> that is not good enough I'm afraid
[06:10] <mhz> mdke: ok
[06:10] <mdke> we can't just change the way we work to just give things a try
[06:10] <mdke> docbook is also a tool we have
[06:10] <mhz> i absolutely agree, I am not asking to "move".
[06:11] <mdke> ah
[06:11] <mhz> I am saying, that is we have some basic "WikiConduct" or something, and we wisely combine moin power with docbook, we may end up having a gtreater work
[06:12] <mhz> that is = that if
[06:13] <mdke> well i agree with having a wikiconduct, although not with what you think wikiconduct should be. But I am not clear on your proposal for "combining" the two
[06:13] <mdke> perhaps you can clarify in an email proposal
[06:14] <mhz> okidoki
[06:15] <mhz> mdke: thx for your time and patience :D
[06:15] <mdke> np
[06:15] <mdke> thank you
[06:15] <mhz> mdke: any WikiLibrarianTeam like?
[06:15] <mdke> WikiTeam
[06:15] <mhz> duh!
[06:16] <mhz> i had no idea
[06:16] <mhz> cool
[06:33] <mdke> (gone)
[12:03] <apokryphos> many of the links on doc.ubuntu.com aren't working