=== Liz [n=Liz@static-203-87-81-158.nsw.chariot.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-58-232.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:48] hi robitaille, Burgundavia [07:49] hi everyone [07:49] robitaille: you going to be out on the protest lines tomorrow morning? [07:49] protest? [07:49] for what? [07:50] our provicial gov't has tried to impose a contract on the province's teachers, and removed various collective bargaining rights [07:51] the rest of the labour movement is going to shut down the city tomorrow to remind the gov't who actually does the work in this province [07:51] wow [07:52] http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/10/11/strike-bc-teachers051011.html [07:52] http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_bc-fed-teachers20051014 [07:53] I've spent most of my weekend organizing our union local's actions for tomorrow... I'm tired, and the blasted week hasn't even really started! [07:53] ok so victoria will be closed for business today... [07:54] tomorrow, locally, but yes, pretty much [09:29] rob^, congratulations! [09:35] ? [09:36] http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2005101401026OPDT [09:37] "Another thing that stands out is the excellent onboard documentation, particulrly the Getting Started guide. Every tried getting Java running in Firefox in Fedora? I have, and even when I would find decent instructions out on a third-party site, I would still not have Java working. For someone who needs his local radar to go into an animated loop on Noaa.gov, this was torture." [09:37] oh yeah [09:37] thanks [09:38] :) === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las [n=niklas@beryl.wknl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las [n=niklas@beryl.wknl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las [n=niklas@beryl.wknl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las [n=niklas@beryl.wknl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:33] i asked on wed/thurs last week if anyone knew when the next meeting was but there wasnt any clear idea. is there a meeting tomorrow? or is that rumor? [02:50] friday [02:50] see DocteamMeetingAgenda [02:50] thanks for your patience in hanging around btw Kamping_Kaiser [02:52] thats ok. ill make sure teh day[night] is free :) [02:58] thanks mdke :) its in teh calander :D [03:11] heh. i just got the the 'we need a meeting thread' :| sorry for noise [03:11] :) [03:11] couple of days lag on your email? [03:12] yeh. last read thursday, started today with 700 messages+ :| [03:13] gd luck [03:14] grin i had the same problem when i got back on saturday [03:14] just finished all my messages :) [03:14] lol wd [03:14] :P === highvolt1ge [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las [n=niklas@beryl.wknl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:07] mdke: Heya, sorry. [05:07] mdke: Went offline for the weekend. [05:09] jbailey, hi, np [05:25] mhz_cooking, ping [05:25] mhz_cooking, i don't understand your recent email, can you clarify here? [05:30] mdke: pong [05:30] hi [05:30] what's up? [05:31] "recnet email" i have just responded another one. [05:31] ok [05:31] I think that is the one I'm talking about [05:32] "recnet email" i have just responded another on? [05:32] "recnet email" i have just responded another on? [05:32] sorry [05:32] the one I'm talking about starts "Matthew East" [05:32] mdke: anything particular you want me to clarify on? [05:32] yes lots [05:32] hehehe === mhz reading ir === mhz reading it [05:33] mhz, ok first of all, are you suggesting that subpages are a good idea, or not [05:33] ohhh, that. [05:34] second, are you suggesting that CamcelCase is a good idea, or not? [05:34] third, what do you mean by "sugar on top"? [05:34] fourth, what did I do to piss you off? [05:36] i didn't really understand your message in the context of the subject of that thread (wiki-forum relationship) [05:36] mhz, still here? [05:37] /subpages are good if people involved on using them (writing and reading) are aware that there's some rules to implement them. Ideally, a wiki works 100% perfectly if it keeps horizontal layout (no subpages), because then everyone can just think of a page name and it is very likely that page actually exists. Example of diff: EdubuntuDhcpdSetUp is very diff to DHCPServerSetUp in terms of linking pages while you write and remembering. [05:38] mdke: sorry I take so long to respond but I am at a keyboard I am not used to and also english is not my native one :) [05:38] no problem === mhz will respond to everything because he believes this is a very important issue, esp. at this point where docing is really needed. [05:39] thanks [05:39] piss me off? nop, not at all! I thought I was pissing people off by insisting on this matter :D lol [05:40] it was the "sugar on top" thing that made me think you were angry. And the "Matthew East" at the beginning of your email :) [05:40] glad to hear you're not === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-204-233.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:40] mdke: sugar on top, in terms of Please be rude if you need to, as long as I get to understand [05:41] and the Matthew East, just because I realized there were two Mats. [05:41] :) [05:42] now, as for the 2nd question... [05:42] ah ok [05:43] CamelCase is the most simple way to generate links. Also, if we get used to CamelCase, when we are writing, we'll get more chances to autcreate links instead of using [] symbols [05:43] CamelCase is simple and yet extremely effective [05:43] IF we use them on regular basis. [05:44] ok so you like CamelCase [05:44] and you don't like subpages [05:45] i have the reverse opinion, at least for documentation. [05:45] My perception about the "chaos" is that I have seen more than a couple of pages that are very very similar in content but with names that either are hard to remember or have [] on them. So if I needed to link them from any page, I would always have to come back and make sure of the name. [05:46] pages that are very very similar in content really shouldn't exist, they should be merged into one page [05:46] but yeah, I take your point about easy-to-remember names [05:47] Documentation is clearer if it has subpages, imho, when we talk about "master documentation" and not "100% public" wikis. [05:47] MoinMaster is lot diff from MoinWiki [05:48] how about question 4? [05:48] oh no you did that one [05:48] Basically, if there were agreement on Dhcp or DHCP, or Ltsp or LTSP, etc., then we'd be more organized. Also, if we knew when we can use /subpage and when we should choose PageName, we'd also have more standarized wiki docs [05:49] that is pretty much impossible, there is no right answer about "when" to use subpages and so on, especially because anyone can edit the wiki [05:49] that's my point [05:49] What if... [05:50] we had at least some simple restrictions: [05:50] a) You want to edit a page? Excellent! Please register and commit to these simple guidelines. [05:50] we may go that way in the future. However, that is not my decision to take and I have grave doubts about it [05:51] b) Please use CamelCase on regular Basis [05:51] c) Please use Acronyms in a CamelCase fashion [05:51] mhz, the general view of the docteam members who work on the wiki is that camelcase is not useful for documentation [05:51] why not? [05:52] because it is difficult to read, and people looking for help do not care about making the life of the wiki editors easier. The focus is on usability [05:52] c.f. wikipedia [05:54] I have worked close to one Chilean "librarian" of WikiPedia. Yes usability is an issue but they still have librarians to admin docs :) [05:54] indeed [05:55] Camelcase is simply difficult to read [05:55] anyhow, i don't want to get into an extended discussion on this because everyone has different opinions [05:55] people looking for help can use any search method and still get to a page because Moin results are CaSe independant [05:56] yes [05:56] but when they get there, it is harder to read. Also, if they are searching by EYE, it is harder for them [05:56] yes, indeed [05:58] Hence I mentioned in my email that unfortunately, is a pity people are not used to wikis. IMHO, a wiki is the fastes way to generate and organize docs. I does have its limitations but if one understands how to bypass them, then it is a real powerfull resource. [05:58] i love wikis [05:58] have you seen the edubuntu website? you'd like it [05:59] Actually, I have used Moin for CMS, Address Book, Calendar, ToDo, Quotation maker, Version Controling, Translation platform, News, etc. [05:59] you are obsessed! [05:59] edubuntu? Yes, I have seen it and already loved it [05:59] LOL [06:00] I used to actively participate in Moin gang (I am big fan of simplicity when it comes to power) === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:01] mdke: it may logically sound "obsession", i agree. But the fact is that Moin does have a flexibility that may get people confused or may get people to just refuse it. [06:01] i like Moin, it's good [06:02] I have tried at least 5 diff wikis, and still moin beats them [06:02] however, I do agree that when it comes to have official documentation, then either have a "freeze" ACL for some pages or just use another tool [06:03] we use html [06:03] MoinMoin gang is using moinmaster for a frozen or offcial /data dir and moinmoin for regular basis. [06:03] yes [06:07] I have "ported" Moin to Html with no bigger issues. [06:07] (moin2html does it all) [06:07] :) [06:07] Some guys are even generating PDF from moin pages [06:08] and they all seem to be happy [06:08] :) [06:08] sure [06:09] but right now docbook is the best place for us to go [06:09] we're not going to move to moin [06:09] mdke: myabe my humble point here is taht if we have this tool (moin) and we can get the most out of it, why not just give it a try? [06:10] that is not good enough I'm afraid [06:10] mdke: ok [06:10] we can't just change the way we work to just give things a try [06:10] docbook is also a tool we have [06:10] i absolutely agree, I am not asking to "move". [06:11] ah [06:11] I am saying, that is we have some basic "WikiConduct" or something, and we wisely combine moin power with docbook, we may end up having a gtreater work [06:12] that is = that if [06:13] well i agree with having a wikiconduct, although not with what you think wikiconduct should be. But I am not clear on your proposal for "combining" the two [06:13] perhaps you can clarify in an email proposal [06:14] okidoki [06:15] mdke: thx for your time and patience :D [06:15] np [06:15] thank you [06:15] mdke: any WikiLibrarianTeam like? [06:15] WikiTeam [06:15] duh! [06:16] i had no idea [06:16] cool [06:33] (gone) === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bojicas [n=bojicas@217.164.251.75] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison heads out, back later === jdub [n=jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === Kinnison [n=dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-55-47.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === apokryphos [i=[U2FsdGV@67.15.185.40] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:03] many of the links on doc.ubuntu.com aren't working