[12:02] <jdub> yay, jon changed tense
[12:03] <astronut> did the arvhies get F*'d? some people in #ubuntu (me included) are having gpg errors and 404's with apt
[12:06] <jdub> man those hp ads with the picture frames are *brilliant*
[12:06] <astronut> jdub: you jsut saw those?
[12:06] <astronut> i know the debian organization but not ubuntu..who handles archives?
[12:07] <jdub> they've been around for a while
[12:14] <ogra> jdub++
[12:15] <tseng> pony++
[12:16] <astronut> archive person is?
[12:16] <tseng> astronut: you can point fingers at Znarl 
[12:17] <astronut> Znarl: 404's all over plus gpg errors
[12:17] <tseng> erm
[12:17] <Znarl> astronut : Not very descriptive but I believe I know the solution.
[12:17] <tseng> gpg errors = packages.gz out of sync
[12:17] <astronut> gpg errors in apt-get update :-P
[12:18] <astronut> Znarl: immediatly following upgrade to breezy
[12:18] <astronut> Failed to fetch http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/m/mplayer/mplayer-586_1.0-pre7cvs20050716-0.1ubuntu9_i386.deb  404 Not Found
[12:18] <astronut> Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy/main libxine1c2 1.0.1-1ubuntu10
[12:18] <astronut>   404 Not Found
[12:18] <astronut> Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy/universe amarok-xine 2:1.3.1-0ubuntu4
[12:18] <astronut>   404 Not Found
[12:18] <astronut> Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy/universe amarok-engines 2:1.3.1-0ubuntu4
[12:18] <astronut>   404 Not Found
[12:18] <Znarl> ok, ok, fixing.  Hold on mate.
[12:18] <astronut> appreciate ti
[12:18] <astronut> what's the issue?
[12:19] <Znarl> Sync problem, should be solved in a few minutes.
[12:19] <jdub> tseng: NO MORE PONIES!
[12:20] <ajmitch> jdub: you're all out?
[12:20] <dredg> mmm ponies
[12:20] <jdub> i just can't keep funding tseng's pony habit
[12:20] <jdub> the return on investment is *terrible*
[12:20] <jbailey> Are they vegan ponies?
[12:20] <ajmitch> jdub: was ubuntu on tap going on the fridge?
[12:21] <jdub> ajmitch: yes, when davyd's docs are ready - that'll make it more relevant :)
[12:22] <ajmitch> great :)
[12:22] <astronut> Znarl: let me know when?
[12:26] <Znarl> astronut : 10 minutes.
[12:26] <astronut> Znarl: k
[12:26] <tseng> jbailey: only if you eat them
[12:26] <ajmitch> ogra: interesting :)
[12:26] <Riddell> ogra: how do you know?
[12:27] <ogra> Riddell, he just posted to the M :)
[12:27] <ogra> ML
[12:27] <jdub> man
[12:27] <jdub> i should totally do a pacific island tour
[12:27] <ogra> hmmm :) looks like a Pacific Paradise Island :)
[12:27] <jdub> ogra: it is near fiji
[12:28] <ajmitch> jdub: start with LCA 
[12:28] <ogra> yes, and they are the owners of .vu ... never knew that... wow, edubuntu is sooo educating me :-D
[12:28] <ajmitch> and then tour from there
[12:29] <jdub> ajmitch: nz so doesn't count
[12:29] <ajmitch> sure it does
[12:29] <ajmitch> we've got the most polynesians of any part of the pacific, I'm sure :)
[12:29] <jdub> ogra: i'd be surprised if it were a real vanuatuan
[12:30] <jdub> ogra: there are lots of tongans on the internet, but almost none of them live there (they just want .to domain names...)
[12:30] <jdub> er, "tongans", with quotes ;)
[12:30] <ajmitch> jdub: just come to dunedin & you'll see our tropical pacific island weather
[12:31] <lifeless> ahahhaa
[12:31] <lifeless> you mean antarctic
[12:31] <ogra> jdub, he sends "greetings from Vanuatu"
[12:31] <lifeless> the tropics are WAY north.
[12:31] <jdub> ogra: rad!
[12:31] <ogra> yep :)
[12:32] <ajmitch> lifeless: close enough
[12:32] <ogra> i realized the .vu part while reading wikipedia
[12:45] <lifeless> didymo: pong
[01:02] <mjg59> lamont: Hi
[01:27] <bob2> oh, dang
[01:27] <bob2> fn-f12 actually triggers suspend-to-disk now
[01:27] <bob2> is that disablable?
[01:27] <HrdwrBob> yes
[01:27] <HrdwrBob> it would just generate an acpi event
[01:28] <bob2> oh, good point
[01:29] <infinity> You're complaining because your silkscreened hotkeys actually work properly?... That's new. :)
[01:30] <HrdwrBob> infinity: damned if you do...
[01:30] <bob2> I'm complaining that my fat fingers hit fn-f12 instead of ctrl-f12 sometimes ;)
[01:31] <bob2> monsieur stub
[01:31] <stub> yo
[01:35] <HrdwrBob> bob2: been using a toshiba?
[01:35] <HrdwrBob> stupid toshiba fn is between crtl and alt, I have an IBM and a toshiba, it's hell switching between them
[01:44] <bob2> heh, yeah, a friend's vaio
[01:51] <infinity> HrdwrBob : Yeah, same here, though I tend to say "stupid IBM", only because my fingers are trained from years of desktop use to fly far-left for CTRL... I'm getting used to the IBM, though.
[01:52] <HrdwrBob> well, stupid both! though it makes it very easy to turn on the thinkpad light, bottom left+top right
[01:53] <infinity> True, but if they wanted the light to be accessible in the dark, they could have given it its own button. :)
[01:55] <mjg59> HP have a BIOS option to switch Fn and Control
[01:56] <HrdwrBob> ooh, damn them to heck.
[01:56] <mjg59> Only on their business range, though
[01:59] <astronut> Znarl: still get 404's
[02:16] <mpt> mjg59, should/could stuff like that be configurable in the Keyboard Preferences?
[02:17] <mjg59> mpt: Not really - most machines don't provide sufficient information for that
[02:18] <mpt> ah, pity
[02:38] <dieman> nifty, backuppc found my laptop was back on the network and restarted that full backup i interruped by going away earlier today
[03:19] <bddebian> ogra: You around?
[03:56] <mdz> oh god, yada is in main?
[03:57] <ajmitch> yes
[03:57] <ajmitch> and it caused pain for breezy too
[03:57] <bob2> haha
[03:57] <ajmitch> I'm sure certain maintainers are quite sick for using it :)
[03:58] <bob2> hey, I've been yada-clean for months now
[03:58] <ajmitch> I'm glad
[03:58] <ajmitch> I had to reintroduce bugs in universe packages because I couldn't break UVF for yada days before release ;)
[04:47] <infinity> mdz : Would accept a trivial fix to -updates for #16911? (usplash exits early in initramfs)
[04:48] <infinity> mdz : I already assumed "No", since the fix wouldn't be seen until the next initramfs regeneration, but.. <shrug>
[04:48] <mdz> infinity: I would, but the fix isn't quite trivial...still might be OK
[04:49] <infinity> mdz : The fix is incredibly trivial.
[04:49] <mdz> there will be a steady stream of kernel security updates to regenerate initramfs
[04:49] <mdz> infinity: increasing/decreasing the usplash timeout?
[04:49] <infinity> mdz : Yup, wrapped around the load_modules() call.
[04:50] <infinity> (There's also a lingering bug in usplash itself, but that can be fixed in dapper)
[04:50] <mdz> doesn't quite fall under my definition of trivial, but might be OK for -updates nonetheless
[04:50] <infinity> Namely, despite the compiled in default timeout of 15, it seems to exit earlier for some people.
[04:50] <mdz> odd, never seen that
[04:51] <infinity> Yeah, I assumed that bug submitters just can't count, but mjg59 confirmed it sometimes exits in 5 seconds or so, for no good reason.
[04:51] <infinity> Though maybe he's also basing this on anecdotal bug submitter evidence.
[04:52] <mdz> the trouble with touching initramfs-tools at all is that any problem we introduce can break the user's system in a way which is quite complex to fix
[04:52] <infinity> Generally, submitters inflate numbers though ("Oh my god, loading modules took 3 minutes!"), rather than deflating numbers (well, it took 15 seconds, but I'll tell you 4), so I dunno.
[04:52] <mdz> even if we upload a fixed version, the user needs to know the magic incantation
[04:52] <mdz> so while a mistake is unlikely, the impact of one can be extremely severe
[04:53] <infinity> Yeah.  It's a harmless hack, but I'm also a bit wary of touching it at all when we know it (more or less) works.
[04:53] <mdz> and meanwhile, it is a cosmetic bug
[04:53] <mdz> I'm not dead set against it, but it makes me itch
[04:53] <infinity> Heh.
[04:54] <infinity> Well, I can deal with a cosmetic bug here and there.
[04:54] <infinity> So perhaps we should just let it be.
[04:54] <infinity> More curious is WHY the loading modules stage takes so effin' long on a select few systems.
[04:54] <infinity> The initramfs isn't really doing much of anything there.
[04:54] <infinity> I need to find a system where it takes more than 2 seconds, so I can at least see it happening.
[04:55] <infinity> One submitter claims it happens "only on k7 sysems", but that datapoint seems suspect. :)
[05:25] <mdz> infinity: plenty of SCSI systems will take a long time there
[05:25] <mdz> since it'll scan the bus
[05:27] <jdub> yo mdz 
[05:27] <Amaranth> is there something wrong with the archive?
[05:29] <Amaranth> hmm, it might just be the us mirror
[05:31] <stub> wiki authentication and launchpad will be offline for approx. 20 mins in 15 minutes time unless anyone feels like bitching
[05:31] <infinity> mdz : True, but I think jbailey had feedback from some pure IDE users on this as well.
[05:31] <infinity> mdz : Either way, the timout would need to be increased for SCSI users.
[05:31] <mdz> jdub: sup
[05:34] <jsgotangco> hmmm opera should warn users that their default ubuntu download requires some kdelibs
[05:34] <jsgotangco> kubuntu people aren't affected
[05:35] <crimsun> jsgotangco: the libqt3-mt bit?
[05:36] <jsgotangco> yeah something like that
[05:36] <jsgotangco> (i don't remember)
[05:58] <infinity> jsgotangco : Does their package not properly depend on libqt3-mt?
[05:59] <crimsun> infinity: not for Breezy, no
[05:59] <infinity> jsgotangco : In which case, the problem isn't with them, it just with us lacking a really user-friendly way to install .debs with dependency resolution (though "dpkg -i *.deb && apt-get -f install" works fine)
[05:59] <infinity> crimsun : For breezy, what's the problem?... They haven't recompiled yet with gcc-4.0?
[06:00] <crimsun> infinity: not sure about Breezy, but they don't depend on libqt3c102-mt for Hoary
[06:01] <infinity> They do for the breezy/etch download.  Just grabbed it.
[06:01] <crimsun> or libqt3c102 if it was non-multithreaded
[06:01] <crimsun> ah, great.
[06:01] <infinity> Though they do scary and wrong things and depend on "libqt3-mt (>= 3.3.4) | libqt3c102-mt (>= 3.3.4)"
[06:02] <crimsun> yikes
[06:02] <jsgotangco> they do actually its nice to stray away from Konqueror to do all the stuff (sorry Riddell)
[06:02] <infinity> Still, they were built with gcc-4.0, so it will work fine on breezy.
[06:02] <jsgotangco> it works fine
[06:02] <jsgotangco> just the dependency
[06:02] <infinity> Right, that dependency resolution is our issue though, not theirs. :)
[06:03] <jsgotangco> ahh
[06:03] <infinity> There was a recent thread on -devel about a simple GUI deb installer.
[06:03] <jsgotangco> the static binaries re best at the moment though
[06:03] <infinity> Why?
[06:03] <infinity> What's so hard about "dpkg -i *.deb && apt-get -f install"?
[06:03] <infinity> (The latter being what will pull in the deps for you)
[06:03] <jsgotangco> well its not a problem for me, but for other people i guess...
[06:04] <infinity> Anyhoe, I expect that if mvo finds a round tuit or two, this will be resolved in dapper.
[06:07] <glick> excuse me i think gv is broken
[06:08] <glick> i cant download xaw3dg when i try to install it
[06:08] <glick> i get a 404 from the mirror
[06:09] <infinity> glick : If you're getting 404s from mirrors, you're probably in need of an "apt-get update"
[06:10] <glick> infinity, i get this...
[06:10] <glick> W: GPG error: http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5 Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key <ftpmaster@ubuntu.com>
[06:10] <infinity> Try again.  That's a transient error.
[06:10] <glick> same thing
[06:11] <infinity> Oh, bah.  us.archive has been pointed back at tds...
[06:11] <glick> whats that mean?
[06:11] <infinity> glick : That means that mirror may (still) be broken.
[06:12] <glick> damn :(
[06:12] <infinity> If you switch from us.archive to archive in your sources.list, you'll probably be fine.
[06:13] <glick> thanks infinity, worked
[07:58] <Keybuk> hmm, it looks mdz has discovered I'm an emacs user
[07:58] <Keybuk> I suddenly have a bunch of emacs bugs in my INBOX
[07:59] <mdz> I knew you were an emacs user, though I hadn't yet made the connection of emacs user<->distro team
[07:59] <infinity> Keybuk : DOOM.
[07:59] <mdz> someone needs to care about emacs around here
[08:00] <fabbione> mdz: rm -rf pool/main/e/emacs* will do :)
[08:00] <fabbione> nothing more efficient :)
[08:02] <fabbione> mdz: your way of assigning bugs to me is impressive.. out of 4 i can probably fix 1
[08:02] <Keybuk> fabbione: bzrk was written in emacs ... think about that before you criticise
[08:02] <fabbione> mdz: i have no printers, never used LDAP or perl :)
[08:02] <mdz> fabbione: I have faith in you
[08:03] <fabbione> Keybuk: *cough*meh*cough*
[08:03] <fabbione> mdz: ahahha
[08:03] <ajmitch> Keybuk: bzrk looks quite impressive & shiny
[08:03] <fabbione> mdz: can i quote that??
[08:04] <mdz> fabbione: a) that's not a printing bug, it's about adding a package to main (and possibly desktop).  there is nothing in it that requires access to a printer
[08:04] <fabbione> mdz: i didn't even read all of them yet :) just looking in my inbox :)
[08:04] <Lathiat> bzrk?
[08:04] <fabbione> mdz: don't worry.. i will work on them
[08:04] <mdz> fabbione: b) that's not an ldap bug, it's an autofs bug.  and nobody uses autofs :-)
[08:04] <fabbione> mdz: just tickleing your reassign power :)
[08:04] <mdz> fabbione: c) that's not a perl bug; it's a perl-tk bug. perl-tk is a C module
[08:04] <fabbione> mdz: exactly... i don't use autofs either :P
[08:05] <Keybuk> Lathiat: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/software/bzrk.png
[08:05] <fabbione> mdz: it still contains perl in the name.. ;)
[08:05] <Lathiat> oh, nifty
[08:05] <fabbione> mdz: don't worry tho.. i will look at them.. i just love to see how much you really love me :P
[08:06] <infinity> Meh, I need to de-yada libnss-db, too.
[08:07] <daniels> we have tk in main??
[08:07] <fabbione> first i need to polish some d-i stuff for partman-auto-lvm
[08:13] <spear> hi !
[08:15] <pitti> Good morning!
[08:15] <Keybuk> "Indeed, it's become something of a joke that the only things you can't avoid in life are death, taxes and Ubuntu reviews."
[08:15] <spear> i can't find what exactly is required by Usplash ... what kernel options ? Same as for Bootsplash ? I checked the readme, nothing's told ... i use a home-built kernel ... i'll try to contact Paul Sladen, but if anybody has an idea ?
[08:15] <Keybuk> thank gods I'd just finished my coffee
[08:16] <Keybuk> spear: just "splash" with a kernel framebuffer ... usplash is an entirely user-space solution, no kernel patches
[08:16] <daniels> try #ubuntu
[08:16] <spear> thank you Keybuk
[08:17] <spear> sorry daniels for annoying, but no one seems to know nowhere, in ubuntu-fr, ubuntu and even on the forum ... and documentation is non existing :(
[08:18] <ajmitch> morning pitti 
[08:18] <spear> i think i'll make the documentation myself and put it on the wiki
[08:18] <pitti> Hey ajmitch, how's it going?
[08:18] <ajmitch> good, how are you today?
[08:18] <Keybuk> spear: documentation is always most welcome
[08:19] <spear> so, for a freshly downloaded kernel from kernel.org, framebuffer and splash kernel options are the only needed ?
[08:21] <infinity> spear : You need initramfs support in the kernel too, since usplash is started from an initramfs.
[08:24] <spear> ok, so initramfs, framebuffer & splash ... that's all ?
[08:24] <infinity> s/splash/
[08:25] <infinity> You don't build with any splash options, you just need "splash" on the command line.
[08:25] <spear> oh, ok !
[08:25] <spear> so framebuffer & initramfs are the only options required
[08:26] <infinity> Yup.
[08:27] <spear> thank you for your patience, i imagine if everyone comes here and ask support questions, you'll get mad ... it was really because i didn't find some documentation that i came here, and i thank you
[08:31] <spear> so, finally i conclude that usplash is totally different from " bootsplash ", a new program in fact (and it has nothing to do with the bootsplash prerequisites then)
[08:31] <infinity> spear : yes, I think that was mentioned by Keybuk.
[08:32] <infinity> spear : usplash is an application that runs in uderspace and writes to a framebuffer.  bootsplash is an intrusive kernel patch that does scary things we didn't really want to do.
[08:32] <dholbach> good morning
[08:33] <spear> good morning !
[08:34] <daniels> whereas solutions like gensplash run in ber space
[08:34] <daniels> splashy runs in unterspace, though
[08:34] <infinity> Die.
[08:35] <highvoltage> is usplash developed for ubuntu? when i google usplash the entire first page is ubuntu related :)_
[08:35] <daniels> yes
[08:35] <infinity> highvoltage : yes.
[08:35] <spear> i read something about Upower in the development pages, it seems to be linked ?
[08:38] <infinity> No.  Two entirely different projects.
[08:38] <spear> ok, so i misunderstood
[08:40] <spear> but it works on the same " objective " as usplash does, no ?
[09:00] <spear> have a good day ! thanks !
[09:03] <sivang> Morning all
[09:08] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[09:10] <sivang> pitti: Hey Martin, how are you ?
[09:10] <pitti> fine, thanks! and you?
[09:13] <sivang> pitti: not bad myself :)
[09:24] <siretart> good morning everybody!
[09:25] <Lathiat> evening siretart 
[09:26] <pef> hello
[09:41] <pitti> Hi mvo
[09:41] <mvo> hey pitti 
[09:51] <sivang> yo zyga 
[09:51] <zyga> hello sivang
[09:57] <Keybuk> Kamion: is there any particular reason why, in second-stage if they have configured network, we couldn't download the "better" kernel from the network and install it for them?
[09:58] <Lathiat> does a "better" kernel actually make any noticable difference?
[09:58] <Keybuk> quite a bit, depending on the system
[09:58] <Lathiat> yeh? what commonly?
[09:59] <Keybuk> performance, generally; the kernel can use more cpu tricks
[10:04] <fabbione> Keybuk: the kernel is big and you might be on a slow pipe? what if you are installing N boxes at the same time?
[10:04] <fabbione> Keybuk: that will mostlikely kill your bw
[10:05] <Keybuk> we already have that bite for language packs though
[10:05] <Kamion> Keybuk: no code exists for anything remotely like that *shrug*
[10:05] <Kamion> and if they have configured network in the second stage, they probably have it in the first stage
[10:06] <fabbione> Kamion: yo.. i am preparing the mail to debian-boot. Please don't spend more time on trying to get diffs out of google cache
[10:06] <fabbione> Kamion: they miss the steps from ubuntu2 to other revisions...
[10:06] <fabbione> Kamion: :/
[10:06] <Keybuk> Kamion: right, but is there any particular reason we couldn't do that (in either stage?)
[10:06] <fabbione> i noticed too late
[10:07] <Kamion> fabbione: I wasn't going to spend any more time on it :)
[10:07] <fabbione> Kamion: perfect :)
[10:07] <Kamion> Keybuk: just the download delay thing
[10:07] <Kamion> and more complexity, etc. that step fails quite often as it is
[10:08] <Kamion> actually, it can't be done at that point in the first stage - haven't set up sources.list yet
[10:08] <Kamion> so it would have to be in the second stage, which means you need an extra reboot to get your system to its final state, which I'd like to avoid
[10:08] <Kamion> basically "not now, maybe later once we've reorganised lots of stuff" :-)
[11:19] <pitti> lifeless: great, bzr push now seems to ignore unknowns. Thanks!
[11:19] <pitti> Keybuk: ^ that means your bzr-push is now obsolete
[11:24] <Keybuk> pitti: well, when it's actually folded into bzr proper
[11:24] <Keybuk> my bzr-push has other bugs though, it's  not perfect
[11:24] <Keybuk> (it rsyncs local changes, for example)
[11:24] <pitti> Keybuk: well, bzrtools' push is good enough for me now
[11:24] <pitti> the old one was annoying
[11:26] <zyga> bzr is developing quite rapidly
[11:27] <pitti> yes, it's nice - you report a bug, and lifeless tells you "ah, I fixed it yesterday"
[11:27] <pitti> :-)
[11:27] <\sh> hmmm
[11:27] <Keybuk> heh, I had one of those the other day
[11:27] <zyga> hehe :-)
[11:27] <Keybuk> a bug was really annoying me, so I went into the code to fix it
[11:27] <Keybuk> pulled first to make sure I was up to date
[11:27] <Keybuk> and realised the bug had gone
[11:27] <\sh> default breezy (gnome) install...ff -> the default page is missing
[11:27] <pitti> cool
[11:28] <pitti> \sh: ? WFM
[11:28] <\sh> pitti: I installed just now a new 5.10 and the default homepage in ubuntu-artwork is just missing 
[11:28] <pitti> odd
[11:28] <\sh> index-ubuntu.html
[11:29] <jsgotangco> odd
[11:29] <\sh> better it's a kubuntu-desktop issue 
[11:29] <\sh> where is the link
[11:29] <\sh> where is the divert?
[11:29] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: bzr-tools doesn't appear to be packaged, though
[11:29] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: it's in jbailey's snapshots thing
[11:30] <Mithrandir> I should hunt down that sources.list line, then
[11:31] <Keybuk> people/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr
[11:31] <Keybuk> I think
[11:32] <Keybuk> is in there as bzrtools
[11:32] <pitti> Mithrandir: yes, and it is called "bzrtools" (without the dash)
[11:33] <ogra> woah, that was a lot of mail to read today...
[11:33] <ogra> morning
[11:33] <pitti> Hi ogra
[11:33] <ajmitch> sadly not in breezy :)
[11:33] <ajmitch> morning ogra 
[11:33] <\sh> moins ogra
[11:33] <ajmitch> how are you?
[11:33] <pitti> ogra: I agree, yesterday's and today's mail flood was amazing..
[11:33] <ogra> :)
[11:33] <ajmitch> plenty of discussion on the UVF ideas
[11:34] <ogra> yup
[11:34] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:34] <ajmitch> first time I've posted to -devel for awhile :)
[11:35] <highvoltage> JaneW: guess what. telkom now tells me that they don't know when they'll have adsl in my area, and that i should call them back every three months to check.
[11:36] <JaneW> highvoltage: that's just ridiculous
[11:36] <JaneW> highvoltage: move to a normal area? ;)
[11:36] <sivang> hey JaneW 
[11:36] <highvoltage> i complained to them for 10 minutes, and they're help desk agent put me on hold... for the same amount of time...so i just hang up
[11:36] <highvoltage> and sent them a loooong e-mail.
[11:36] <ajmitch> highvoltage: sounds like NZ :)
[11:37] <JaneW> hi sivang
[11:37] <highvoltage> oops, thought i was in #edubuntu there
[11:37] <highvoltage> ajmitch: it can't be *that* bad in NZ ;)
[11:38] <ajmitch> highvoltage: close enough
[11:38] <zyga> mvo: ping
[11:38] <mvo> zyga: pong
[11:38] <zyga> mvo: are you running non-english locale?
[11:39] <mvo> sivang: thanks for your mail about "gdebi", the code is availabe as a bzr branch if you are interessted
[11:39] <mvo> zyga: no, usually not
[11:39] <zyga> mvo: run firefox and check help->'translate this application'
[11:39] <mvo> zyga: sometimes for testing
[11:39] <zyga> mvo: it's not translated even though every other application has this translated alreday
[11:39] <zyga> mvo: I know that firefox uses different i18n tools
[11:39] <zyga> mvo: is there any way to fix this?
[11:40] <mvo> zyga: let me check. IIRC sivang or seb128 did the ff integration
[11:40] <zyga> sure
[11:40] <sivang> mvo: :) I'm interested in opening .debs for inspecting their to be installed conffiles, as per SetupSnapshots. (would greatly appriciate your feedback there as well, although the specs are not finished yet)
[11:42] <seb128> zyga, mvo: it's not translated
[11:43] <zyga> k, now on how to fix this
[11:43] <zyga> ff is using some strange xul stuff right?
[11:43] <seb128> good luck
[11:43] <seb128> correct
[11:43] <seb128> and translation don't use gettext
[11:43] <seb128> and when I marked the string as translatable it crashed with translation packages since they don't have it
[11:44] <sivang> bah
[11:44] <sivang> seb128: Bon Jour :) how are you?
[11:44] <seb128> hi
[11:44] <seb128> fine
[11:44] <seb128> you?
[11:45] <sivang> good, thanks.
[11:46] <ogra> hey, wont we have a dapper-changes list ? there is nothing on lists.ubuntu.com yet
[11:46] <seb128> is dapper open for uploads?
[11:46] <ogra> no idea, but i'd like to subscribe to the list ...
[11:47] <seb128> if not, why should we already have a list?
[11:47] <ogra> to finish the bureaucracy in advance ? 
[11:47] <seb128> what about letting time to jdub or whoever to do that?
[11:47] <ogra> bah... :)
[11:50] <zyga> mvo, seb128: is anyone on that ff-i18n bug?
[11:50] <seb128> you? :)
[11:51] <mvo> zyga: no, but we are happy about volunteers :)
[11:52] <zyga> mvo: I don't know jack about xul - I don't know how to fix it at all
[11:52] <zyga> mvo: is this similar to an extension?
[11:52] <zyga> seb128: I am using epiphany :-)
[11:53] <zyga> mvo: extension can ship with their own translations AFAIK
[11:53] <zyga> but we'd neet to roll all translations into that integration package (again bad thing)
[11:54] <zyga> mvo: OTOH, what do you think about that mockup of mine?
[11:54] <mvo> zyga: I haven't read the rational (complettly) yet. it looks like this is going to be quite a development efford 
[11:55] <zyga> mvo: not really, no
[11:55] <zyga> mvo: without others to support this it'll be a dead idea anyway 
[11:55] <Keybuk> hmm
[11:55] <Keybuk> maybe today I shall update my desktop to breezy
[11:56] <zyga> mvo: I plan to develop 100% of the backend support, initial repo with all of ubuntu's translations, a gui tool and the evangelization
[11:56] <zyga> once that is packaged and working I'll try to convince one group I cooperate with to use this
[11:57] <mvo> zyga: ok (/me goes and reads the blog now)
[11:57] <zyga> mvo: wait
[11:57] <mvo> zyga: ok
[11:57] <zyga> mvo: I was about to update with current progress and other stuff
[11:58] <zyga> mvo: I'll let you know
[11:58] <mvo> zyga: ok, thanks. I'll wait for your ping then :)
[12:10] <jdub> ogra: yeah! dapper-changes!
[12:10] <pitti> jdub: is it there?
[12:10] <pitti> ah
[12:10] <ogra> cool !
[12:10] <pitti> jdub: can you migrate the breezy-changes subscriptions?
[12:12] <ajmitch> oh yay
[12:13] <ajmitch> jdub: there'll be a separate list for autosyncs (if they happen)?
[12:13] <jdub> pitti: yep
[12:13] <jdub> ajmitch: hmm
[12:14] <ajmitch> I think you split the list for breezy at one point
[12:14] <ajmitch> otherwise our poor mailboxes will hurt
[12:14] <sivang> so are we open for bussiness already?
[12:14] <sivang> :)
[12:14] <ajmitch> sivang: not that I'm aware of
[12:28] <zyga> mvo: ping
[12:28] <zyga> mvo: done, check and comment if you whish :)
[12:28] <zyga> actually, everyone is invided to do so: http://www.suxx.pl/blog/index.php/next-generation-l10n-system/
[12:40] <Kamion> Lathiat: whoa, assigning bugs to "Ubuntu Development Team" sends mail to a lot of people
[12:40] <Kamion> could you not do it if you don't have to? :)
[12:40] <Lathiat> oops
[12:40] <Lathiat> ok
[12:40] <ajmitch> Lathiat: uh oh ;)
[12:40] <Kamion> I don't think it really buys a lot over "unknown"
[12:55] <pitti> sjoerd: ping
[12:58] <Diziet> kamion: Joy, another web UI to fight with :-).
[12:59] <Keybuk> oh, finally
[12:59] <Keybuk> they're pre-releasing the 770s
[12:59] <ogra> Diziet, bugzilla will go away for it
[12:59] <Kamion> Diziet: have fun ... although I'm told there is an e-mail interface (albeit a bit weird)
[01:00] <Kamion> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceUserDoc
[01:00] <fabbione> Mithrandir: number?
[01:00] <Mithrandir> ogra: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18029
[01:00] <ogra> gah... i get them constantly...
[01:00] <mvo> haha
[01:01] <mvo> poor ogra 
[01:01] <ajmitch> hah
[01:01] <ogra> *SIGH*
[01:01] <ajmitch> xscreensaver seems to attract interesting bugreports
[01:02] <zyga> ogra: add gender to about me dialog ;-)
[01:02] <ogra> pre release people called me racist because our default background in edubuntu shows a white girl... http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/edubuntu/13
[01:02] <zyga> and be sure to include options like 'both, none, i ait gonna tell'
[01:02] <Treenaks> zyga: yes, but what would be the default?
[01:02] <zyga> Treenaks: ;-))
[01:02] <ogra> now i'm also a chauvinist :)
[01:02] <zyga> Treenaks: I aint gonna tell
[01:02] <Treenaks> ogra: white? she's yellow!
[01:03] <ogra> Treenaks, people seem not to notice :)
[01:03] <zyga> oh yes!
[01:03] <zyga> we need to include skin colour
[01:03] <Mithrandir> ogra: dude, Magni didn't call you a chauvinist, she just asked for the beard to be removed. :-P
[01:03] <Treenaks> zyga: just make a hackergotchi mandatory ;)
[01:03] <zyga> and varioius facial differences too ;-)
[01:03] <zyga> Treenaks: heh
[01:04] <Kamion> pitti: btw, I think your openssh advisory text was a bit misleading
[01:04] <zyga> ogra: I've got a tip though
[01:04] <zyga> ogra: you can use existing code in the potato guy ;-)
[01:04] <ogra> hehe
[01:04] <Kamion> pitti: not only does the vulnerability not affect openssh-server in the default configuration, but it doesn't affect openssh-server unless you rebuild the package with different options
[01:04] <fabbione> ogra: ahahah you score :)
[01:04] <ogra> i'll talk to mdz if he sees it as an breezy-update ... but i doubt it... and its simply the default icon ...
[01:05] <pitti> Kamion: oops, right
[01:06] <Diziet> The crypto on malone mails is just antispam, right ?
[01:06] <ajmitch> Diziet: what crypto do you see?
[01:06] <fabbione> Diziet: that will work until all our gpg keys will be compromised :)
[01:06] <Diziet> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/MaloneEmailInterfaceUserDoc says one has to sign various emails.
[01:07] <fabbione> ajmitch: i think he means gpg sign
[01:07] <ajmitch> ah right
[01:07] <Kamion> we had a long debate about that at UDU
[01:07] <Kamion> I thought the sabdfl-conclusion was not to require signing at least for most operations
[01:08] <fabbione> the interface sounds *scary*
[01:08] <Kamion> why signing appeared again, I'm not sure; some people had strange ideas about what operations required authentication
[01:09] <Keybuk> lauchpad has strange ideas about permissions too
[01:09] <Keybuk> only the developer can resolve a bug, for example
[01:09] <Diziet> `GPG keys are required to sign the Ubuntu Code of Conduct' ?!
[01:10] <Diziet> `This key hereby promises not to be a flaming arsehole'.
[01:10] <Kamion> s/to/in order to/, I think :-)
[01:10] <Keybuk> that's because it makes it legally equivalent to an ink signature
[01:10] <Keybuk> so when the user complains about being thrown out, you can show them something they signed to say they wouldn't behave like that
[01:11] <Diziet> Why do you need to show them anything ?  You can just throw them out.
[01:11] <Keybuk> what happens when they decide to sue
[01:11] <Keybuk> etc.
[01:11] <fabbione> Diziet[respectpoint] ++
[01:11] <Keybuk> exactly that kind of thing
[01:11] <Diziet> ?
[01:11] <Keybuk> is just a "dude, you signed a document to say you wouldn't do that, no go away"
[01:11] <Keybuk> and it makes people read it, too, which helps
[01:12] <Diziet> _Nothing_ can stop people sueing.  You can sue no matter how idioticly stupid your case is.
[01:12] <ogra> and its a prerequisite to be an uploader ... so you already signed it, didnt you Diziet ? ;)
[01:12] <Keybuk> didn't say it _stopped_ them sueing
[01:12] <Diziet> The point of legal CYA is to avoid _losing_.  But in this case there's no difficulty on that score.
[01:12] <Keybuk> just said it was for when they did
[01:12] <Kamion> ogra: Diziet signed a contract with Canonical
[01:13] <Kamion> which is sufficient
[01:13] <Diziet> But this is all silly politics and I'm sure we must all have something better to do.
[01:13] <ogra> Diziet, just hang around in #ubuntu for 24h
[01:14] <Diziet> Thanks but no thanks ...
[01:14] <ajmitch> ogra: now..
[01:15] <sjoerd> pitti: pong
[01:16] <pitti> sjoerd: Hi! how are you?
[01:16] <pitti> sjoerd: I'm just merging hal
[01:17] <sjoerd> cool
[01:17] <pitti> sjoerd: you did the udev transition, cool
[01:17] <Diziet> -davenant:~/mail> gpg t.asc
[01:17] <Diziet> gpg: CRC error; 963a33 - dc3963
[01:17] <Diziet> gpg: packet(5) with unknown version 149
[01:17] <pitti> sjoerd: however, your preinst did not remove the obsolete dev.d/hotplug.d conffiles
[01:17] <Diziet> Bizarre.  Not sure why it faffs with sending me a cryptogram, either.
[01:17] <pef> is dapper open ?
[01:18] <Kamion> pef: when it is, the topic will be changed
[01:18] <pef> Kamion: ok, thanks :)
[01:20] <sjoerd> pitti: hrm, seems that they are removed just fine on my system.. but i indeed forgot to force there removal
[01:20] <sjoerd> thought that i added that...
[01:20] <pitti> sjoerd: you do remove /etc/dev.d/block/hal-unmount.dev
[01:21] <pitti> sjoerd: but not /etc/hotplug.d/...
[01:21] <sjoerd> right, that needs to be added in debian then..
[01:21] <ajmitch> Kamion: when dapper opens, what's the general policy for main uploads?
[01:22] <sjoerd> pitti: i gotta go.. lemme know if your finished merging, then i'll merge it back to the debian package again :)
[01:22] <Kamion> ajmitch: whether we sync is still open for discussion
[01:22] <seb128> ajmitch: do them? :p
[01:22] <Kamion> ajmitch: otherwise open
[01:22] <pitti> sjoerd: yes; I also do some other fixes
[01:22] <Mithrandir> Kamion: so it's UVF and we just do bugfixes?
[01:23] <Kamion> Mithrandir: that's not yet established
[01:23] <ogra> doesnt work for edubuntu...
[01:23] <ogra> and i guess neither for kubuntu
[01:23] <ajmitch> right, there are a few packages that I want to patch for selinux support (chiefly coreutils now)
[01:23] <Kamion> I think eyeballed merges are likely to be fine at the very least
[01:23] <Kamion> but check with mdz when he wakes up
[01:23] <ajmitch> ok
[01:23] <Mithrandir> ook
[01:24] <Keybuk> hmm
[01:24] <ajmitch> since I'd want to be getting things like sysvinit, which are reasonably critical :)
[01:24] <Keybuk> you know that Nautilus "CD/DVD creator" thing
[01:24] <Keybuk> why the hell doesn't it tell you how much free space you have ?!
[01:24] <Keybuk> ajmitch: I want to get rid of sysvinit by dapper+1 :p
[01:24] <sjoerd> pitti: unfortunately i have very limited time for debian these days.. but hopefully i can merge hal and dbus stuff somewhere this week or next week... 
[01:24] <ogra> Keybuk, patch it :)
[01:24] <maswan> Keybuk: rewrite?
[01:25] <ajmitch> Keybuk: that'd be great, but then I'd need to put selinux support into whatever else we used if it didn't have it :)
[01:25] <seb128> maswan: sure, every time we find a bug we rewrite a new software
[01:25] <Keybuk> ajmitch: what kind of stuff needs to be patched for selinux?
[01:25] <ogra> seb128, and i thought you would only package it :p
[01:26] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: you're aware that sysvinit in Debian is actually alive again and is getting dependency init support?
[01:26] <ajmitch> Keybuk: getting init to load policy, debian's sysvinit works with it now
[01:26] <ogra> now i know why you are so busy
[01:26] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: yes, and I think they're doing it wrong
[01:26] <Keybuk> which isn't really very shocking
[01:27] <Keybuk> if you're doing dependency init (which is also wrong) you don't want to base it off sysvinit, you want to do it right
[01:28] <Keybuk> ajmitch: "to load policy" ... you'll have to forgive me, but I don't know much about selinux -- isn't that just an init script activity
[01:28] <ajmitch> Keybuk: no, it's done by libselinux calls
[01:28] <ajmitch> which is what makes all this fun necessary
[01:29] <Keybuk> ajmitch: yes, but what does it _do_ ?
[01:29] <Mithrandir> ogra: isn't the icon in the screensaver supposed to change if you change the picture in "about me"?
[01:29] <Keybuk> where does it load the policy into?
[01:29] <ajmitch> into the kernel
[01:30] <Keybuk> right, so doesn't that just mean it's an S:S01 init script kind of affair?
[01:30] <ogra> Mithrandir, nope... jwz policy... nothing can be loaded dynamically...
[01:30] <ajmitch> I don't think that approach works, although it might be worth looking at 
[01:30] <Mithrandir> ogra: uhm, why is the bearded man there at all, then?
[01:31] <ajmitch> init itself needs to be put into the right security context when it runs
[01:31] <ogra> Mithrandir, because its the default icon representing a user everywhere in the desktop
[01:32] <Keybuk> ajmitch: hmm, but in our system, init isn't the first thing to run
[01:32] <ajmitch> so that other processes can get the right context
[01:32] <Keybuk> don't you really want to look at loading the policy in initramfs?
[01:32] <ogra> Mithrandir, even if i could load it dynamically, it would have to be computed to be a 90colr indexed xpm
[01:32] <ajmitch> Keybuk: right, I've been talking with jbailey about that
[01:32] <ajmitch> loading a minimal policy then & then another one from disk later
[01:32] <Mithrandir> ogra: imo, it shouldn't be there at all, it doesn't have any function.
[01:32] <ogra> Mithrandir, jwz rewrote libxpm and included it in the code of xscreensaver so there gets no .so loaded 
[01:33] <ogra> Mithrandir, it shows a user ... as everywhere in the system if you dont set an icon...
[01:33] <Mithrandir> ogra: the daemon could reread the image on lock and convert it to xpm internally.
[01:33] <ajmitch> if I can load a full policy from disk, from the initramfs, then I wouldn't need to have init patched
[01:34] <Keybuk> ajmitch: why can't you load the full policy?
[01:34] <Keybuk> we're already going to be doing most of the fun stuff in initramfs anyway
[01:34] <Keybuk> because we have to start udev there
[01:34] <ajmitch> that's what I have to look at
[01:34] <Keybuk> which is going to be causing the launch of most of our boot sequence
[01:34] <ajmitch> right
[01:34] <ogra> Mithrandir, yes it could... but i had to start hacking xscreensaver 2.5 weeks before release while i had a lot edubuntu stuff todo... it wasnt planned to rewrite it... thats the best i could do without dropping the edubuntu release
[01:35] <Mithrandir> ogra: not in the users and group admin tool, for instance.
[01:35] <Mithrandir> ogra: I'm just proposing to drop the image if you can't have it dynamic. :-)
[01:35] <ogra> Mithrandir, in about me, in gnome-screensaver etc... there are a lo of places, even in gdm its the default icon
[01:42] <ogra> erm
[01:43] <ogra> Mithrandir, are you magnio incognito ? 
[01:43] <Mithrandir> ogra: she's a friend of mine, yes.
[01:43] <ogra> *SIGH*
[01:43] <Mithrandir> ogra: no, I'm not her.  Google for her if you don't believe me. :-P
[01:46] <Mithrandir> ogra: I was told to tell you that she'll write evil stuff about jwz and less evil stuff about Ubuntu in her master's thesis (on sex's role in the free software world)
[01:46] <ogra> Mithrandir, i'm just tired of getting bug reports twice because i marked them as duplicate
[01:46] <mpt> ogra: If 16895 is a duplicate of a wontfix bug, 18029 is not a duplicate of 16895
[01:47] <mpt> actually, it's not a duplicate regardless of the status of 16895
[01:47] <ogra> mpt, as long as mdz doesnt say that i should update its a WONTFIX for me... i dont seethe need
[01:47] <jdub> mi	sex, or gender?
[01:47] <jdub> Mithrandir: ^
[01:48] <ogra> Mithrandir, she can write what she wants, but she should leave jwz out, the icon was my choice
[01:48] <Mithrandir> jdub: people have sex, words have gender, I've been told.
[01:48] <mpt> ogra: You mean it's not going to be fixed because xscreensaver isn't going to be used any more?
[01:48] <jdub> "people have sex" -> ambiguous :)
[01:48] <Mithrandir> jdub :-)
[01:49] <ogra> mpt, i dont see the need for it to be fixed, it uses the default icon thats used everywhere... even gnome-screensaver uses it
[01:49] <jdub> Mithrandir: that distinction isn't entirely true in english
[01:49] <jdub> like, on a form, i'd answer "M" for either 'sex' or 'gender'
[01:49] <Mithrandir> jdub: I've heard it for english, since you don't have the distinction in, say, Norwegian.
[01:49] <jdub> though i'd be tempted to answer "Y" for 'sex'
[01:49] <mpt> ogra: Well that's just what I was going to say, the bug could be moved to gnome-screensaver, and "the bug occurs everywhere" isn't a reason not to fix it
[01:49] <ogra> mpt, the fix would be to have a neutral default icon... (which wont happen for breezy) so its consistent currently
[01:49] <mpt> actually if it occurs everywhere, it's maybe an icon theme bug
[01:50] <Mithrandir> jdub: yes, but that doesn't mean it (pedantically) makes sense to ask about your gender.  You realise the world around you is buggy, but it's less hassle to second-guess, so you do.
[01:50] <ogra> yes
[01:50] <jdub> hmm
[01:50] <Mithrandir> ogra: well, we don't close all bugs we can't fix for breezy, we leave them open and fix some of them for dapper. :-)
[01:51] <maswan> Mithrandir: sex is biological, gender is social. when you make that kind of distinction.
[01:51] <ogra> Mithrandir, i wont touch xscreensaver anymore execpt the hacks...
[01:51] <Mithrandir> maswan: so if you're a male transvestite, you should answer "male" for sex and "female" for gender?
[01:51] <ogra> Mithrandir, we'll switch fully to gnome-screensaver.... xscreensaver daemon and binary will go to universe
[01:52] <jdub> man
[01:52] <jdub> net connection sucks here
[01:52] <maswan> Mithrandir: you could, I guess. but it also depends on the context of the question, I guess.
[01:52] <ogra> Mithrandir, and loose my lockscreen patch in the next sync
[01:53] <maswan> Mithrandir: the department of biology or medicine or whatever studies sex, gender studies is a social science. in general. there might be local differences. I think asking for gender is better than asking for sex, if the context is similar to "should I call it he or she?"
[01:58] <Treenaks> maswan: Ask for a prefix (mr, mrs, ms, etc.), and localise the list for each country, with a gender tag
[01:58] <jdub> dapper-changes is ALIVE!
[01:58] <Treenaks> jdub: w00t! let's have a beer on that tonight ;)
[01:58] <ajmitch> jdub: yay, now we just need uploads to fill it
[01:59] <ogra> jdub, yay
[01:59] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: how do you handle the fishes that change sex as they grow up?
[01:59] <ajmitch> everyone who was on breezy-changes is subscribed there?
[01:59] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: just call them wanda
[02:00] <maswan> Treenaks: not all countries have prefixes.
[02:01] <Treenaks> maswan: good point
[02:01] <poningru> hey guys question
[02:01] <poningru> it seems audacity plays mp3 out of the box
[02:02] <poningru> doesnt that make it kinda illegal in the US
[02:03] <poningru> or is universe exempt from that?
[02:04] <pitti> poningru: universe is fine
[02:04] <pitti> poningru: but we have legal troubles anyway, since libmad0 is in main
[02:04] <ajmitch> night all
[02:04] <pitti> poningru: mp3 playback is not illegal itself
[02:04] <poningru> ooph
[02:04] <pitti> night ajmitch 
[02:05] <poningru> night dude
[02:05] <pitti> poningru: you just must not ship it without a license
[02:05] <poningru> pitti: right, so arent we shipping it without a license?
[02:05] <pitti> we do
[02:06] <poningru> so wouldnt the usage of ubuntu in the US be deemed illegal?
[02:06] <poningru> since its 'bundled'
[02:06] <pitti> not sure
[02:06] <poningru> my understanding is not that good either
[02:06] <pitti> it does not come on the CDs, AFAIK
[02:06] <ogra> we dont "ship" audacity...
[02:06] <pitti> so it might not meet the definition of "ship"
[02:06] <ogra> its fine as it is...
[02:06] <poningru> hmm ic
[02:06] <pitti> ogra: I'm talking about libmad0
[02:06] <pitti> ogra: we put gstreamer0.8-mad in universe for no good reason
[02:06] <ogra> pitti, yes, audacity build-deps on it
[02:07] <pitti> and have the actual decoder in main - we need to fix this ASAP
[02:07] <ogra> libmad0 was planned to get dropped from main soon afaik
[02:07] <poningru> oh ok ic so universe is ok since we dont actually ship it
[02:07] <poningru> gotcha
[02:07] <pitti> it was planned for breezy actually
[02:08] <bob2> maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.
[02:08] <pitti> k, gotta leave for a couple of hours - cu later
[02:08] <poningru> adios
[02:08] <ogra> bye pitti 
[02:20] <zyga> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/marketplace
[02:20] <zyga> 404
[02:20] <zyga> errr
[02:23] <jordi> koke: ping
[02:36] <zyga> who will/can open dapper?
[02:37] <bob2> there's five months and 27 days left
[02:37] <jdub> OH MY GOD!!!! THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME!!!!
[02:38] <Treenaks> jdub in wonderland?
[02:39] <zyga> hmm ;-) ?
[02:40] <Lathiat> quick we'll have to cancel dapper
[02:40] <Treenaks> Lathiat: and then?
[02:41] <Lathiat> panic?
[02:41] <Treenaks> Lathiat: good one
[02:42] <poningru> sorry had to be done
[02:42] <Treenaks> poningru: Never moon a werewolf.
[02:43] <jdub>   ~.
[02:44] <jdub> heh
[03:03] <highvoltage> hi, i'm trying to use debmirror to download the breezy archive, and i receive the following message:
[03:03] <highvoltage> any ideas?
[03:03] <highvoltage> Won't mirror without dists/breezy/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz signature in Release at /usr/bin/debmirror line 1187.
[03:05] <Lathiat> you need to pass --ignore-release-gpg
[03:05] <Lathiat> or whatever it is
[03:05] <Lathiat> debmirror --help
[03:05] <Lathiat> i forget why
[03:05] <highvoltage> Lathiat: ah, thanks.
[03:06] <highvoltage> still does it.
[03:10] <Lathiat> highvoltage: what command are you running?
[03:14] <highvoltage> Lathiat: debmirror --method=http --dist=breezy --section=main,universe --host=archive.ubuntu.com --ignore-release-gpg .
[03:15] <Treenaks> I'm getting
[03:15] <Treenaks> W: GPG error: http://nl.archive.ubuntu.com breezy Release: Unknown error executing gpgv
[03:17] <maswan> Ehm, my debmirror seem to be working without --ignore-release-gpg
[03:17] <Treenaks> yes, I know how to make it _work_
[03:18] <Treenaks> I'm getting lots of reports
[03:18] <maswan> Ah
[03:18] <highvoltage> Treenaks: so, how do i make it work? :)
[03:19] <Treenaks> highvoltage: I don't know :)
[03:29] <bddebian> Hello
[03:32] <zoot_> hi there - does anyone know what the status (if any) of breezy's apcupsd-3.10.17.2 being upgraded to apcupsd-3.10.18? ... .18 is a bugfix (and in debian unstable) for UPS APC devices which several folks, including myself require. url is http://packages.debian.org/unstable/source/apcupsd
[03:33] <zoot_> the bugfixes pertain to USB APC cabled APC UPSs under linux 2.6.12 kernels
[03:48] <\sh> did I miss the opening of dapper?
[03:49] <Kinnison> No
[03:49] <Kinnison> jdub got the -changes list ready
[03:49] <Kinnison> but that's about it so far
[03:49] <Kamion> \sh: topic
[03:50] <Keybuk> figlet -fsmall ARE WE THERE YET?
[03:51] <Kinnison> Keybuk: figlet -fhuge NO!
[03:51] <\sh> Kamion: well...irssis fault..and my day in hell part 2
[03:51] <bddebian> Heya \sh.  Opening of Dapper, hell we released already.. ;-P
[03:52] <\sh> bddebian: nice...U fixed the life, the universe and the rest? ,-)
[04:09] <pkern> Are the release goals for dapper already available somewhere?
[04:09] <HiddenWolf> pkern, not decided yet.
[04:09] <bddebian> After UBZ I assume
[04:09] <HiddenWolf> pkern, they'll be decided at the summit in a week or so.
[04:09] <pkern> HiddenWolf: Not even some preliminary ones?
[04:09] <HiddenWolf> pkern, check the wiki for BOF's
[04:10] <pkern> Oh I thought UBZ happened already.
[04:10] <pkern> Sorry.
[04:10] <bddebian> Nope, end of this month.  NP :-)
[04:11] <Lathiat> theres a list of bofs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs
[04:11] <Lathiat> so i guess thats 'perliminary' 
[04:13] <pkern> Yep, I'm currently crawling it. UBZ would be quite interesting, but hey guys... Please do your next conference in Europe. (=
[04:13] <jbailey> pkern: Two conferences ago was in Europe, as was the one before that.
[04:13] <jbailey> I have no idea how the rotation is done, but it seems to me that it likely wouldn't go there next.
[04:13] <pkern> Ok ):
[04:15] <Lathiat> erghhh, something has eaten my ZeroConfSpec
[04:16] <bddebian> Next is the US ;-P
[04:17] <Lathiat> hrm actually
[04:17] <Lathiat> the page seems to never stop loading
[04:18] <Riddell> bddebian: conferences in the US are difficult
[04:18] <wickedpuppy> none in asia ?
[04:19] <Riddell> Lathiat: it took a while but the page has now loaded fine for me
[04:19] <Lathiat> Riddell: yeh same
[04:19] <Lathiat> it took *ages* but
[04:20] <Lathiat> like, 3 minutes or so
[04:20] <Riddell> wickedpuppy: it needs someone local to help organise it
[04:20] <Lathiat> in a wget the speed slowed to 0K/s for quite a while
[04:20] <bddebian> Riddell: Why is that?
[04:20] <Riddell> bddebian: visa restrictions
[04:21] <HiddenWolf> Riddell, why is that?
[04:21] <Riddell> "what's this free software?  sounds like a communist meeting, you're not getting in"
[04:21] <bddebian> Oh give me a freakin break
[04:21] <HiddenWolf> Riddell, lol
[04:21] <HiddenWolf> Riddell, gnome summit was in boston, right?
[04:22] <pkern> Mh all launchpad merge requests are resulting in "RequestExpired"
[04:22] <Riddell> true, would be insteresting to know what sort of visa fun gnome summit must have
[04:22] <Keybuk> Riddell: all the attendees are in Boston *anyway*
[04:22] <Keybuk> it's basically a RH and Novell love-in, isn't it? :p
[04:22] <mjg59> Riddell: From Europe? None
[04:22] <jdub> very few visa issues
[04:22] <Kamion> bddebian: some Canonical employees have had visa problems in countries with fewer visa issues than the US; it's not a joke
[04:23] <jdub> Kamion: the south africans. but they're special.
[04:23] <Kamion> including things like refusal to believe that Canonical exists because of its somewhat weird status
[04:24] <Lathiat> Kamion: 'weird' status?
[04:24] <Keybuk> jdub: not just the south africans
[04:24] <Keybuk> but those are a particular group, yes
[04:24] <hunger> jdub: Yeap, visa is not the problem... but you do have to give your fingerprints, etc.
[04:24] <Kamion> Lathiat: multinational, incorporated in Isle of Man, that kind of thing
[04:25] <Lathiat> what is the isle of man 
[04:25] <hunger> Kinnison: Neither do I...
[04:25] <ogra> Lathiat, an island
[04:25] <Kamion> Lathiat: what is google? :-)
[04:25] <Keybuk> Lathiat: it's a country just offshore of the United Kingdom
[04:25] <jdub> Lathiat: in between the big islands
[04:25] <Kamion> come on dude, first hit
[04:25] <Lathiat> and why is canonical incorporated in the isle of man?
[04:25] <Lathiat> Kamion: yeh yeh i got it ;p
[04:25] <jdub> Lathiat: tax haven
[04:25] <Keybuk> Lathiat: convenient tax haven
[04:26] <Keybuk> running an international company that employs developers in 14 different countries is *hard* when you have to deal with local corporate tax law
[04:26] <Lathiat> ah ok
[04:26] <wickedpuppy> Riddell, how much money does it normally take for a conference ?
[04:26] <Riddell> wickedpuppy: lots I imagine, dunno
[04:27] <pkern> Isle of Man is not under UK law that is?
[04:27] <pkern> *normal
[04:27] <Riddell> bandwidth costs at ubuntu down under must have been a lot :)
[04:27] <Keybuk> pkern: no, because it's not part of the UK
[04:27] <pkern> And there's a real office at Isle of Man?
[04:27] <jdub> Riddell: not really, just annoying
[04:27] <mpt> jdub: yo
[04:27] <jdub> morning mpy
[04:28] <Keybuk> pkern: there's a bank :)
[04:28] <pkern> Keybuk: Ok, but under the crown. (:
[04:28] <maswan> how big is an ubuntu conference?
[04:28] <jdub> mpt
[04:28] <jdub> maswan: > 100 people
[04:28] <Kamion> pkern: crown> so's Canada
[04:28] <jdub> maswan: s/conference/developer summit/
[04:28] <maswan> jdub: but <300?
[04:28] <mpt> jdub: We have a SoundEvents spec that (afaik) is marooned without an implementor, and we have an Ivic Ico Bukvic in ubuntu-devel@ offering his desktop sound theme
[04:28] <pkern> Keybuk: *cough*... "a bank"?
[04:28] <mpt> Perhaps the two could be brought together?
[04:28] <maswan> jdub: ACK
[04:28] <Keybuk> pkern: it's a member of the commonwealth, yes
[04:28] <pitti> hi
[04:28] <jdub> maswan: yeah
[04:29] <Riddell> pitti: could you join us in #kubuntu-devel for a second?
[04:29] <pitti> sure
[04:30] <sladen> pkern: Bank.  An organisation that pushes money around and scrapes off a little bit for itself
[04:31] <pkern> sladen: Yes, but so the only part of Canonical that really resides on the Isle of Man is the money? (:
[04:31] <maswan> jdub: interesting, just curious mostly. I'm not sure I have the local organisation or the international flight connections for UbuntuWithBandwidth 2007. ;)
[04:32] <Keybuk> pkern: and the board of directors and legal stuff like that
[04:32] <pkern> Keybuk: Ok.
[04:32] <pkern> Is the people merger in Launchpad broken?
[04:32] <Keybuk> but in general no, it's just where the company is "based"
[04:32] <Keybuk> the offices are in London
[04:33] <Kinnison> pkern: It is slightly broken at times
[04:33] <pkern> Kinnison: Ok.
[04:33] <Amaranth> mpt: that'd be awesome
[04:34] <Amaranth> mpt: and since the theme was appearently designed for KDE it could be used on kubuntu too
[04:34] <Riddell> Amaranth: what's that?
[04:34] <pkern> Malone #3318 is funny, is 5.04 still in the archives as a kind of "oldstable"?
[04:35] <bddebian> There were several Hoary bugs in Malone still last I looked
[04:36] <Kinnison> pkern: warty is still supported
[04:36] <Amaranth> Riddell: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012148.html
[04:36] <Amaranth> Riddell: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=12584 is the theme itself
[05:11] <trulux> pitti: hey
[05:12] <pitti> Hi trulux
[05:12] <trulux> pitti: Doing well?
[05:12] <pitti> yes, sure
[05:13] <trulux> pitti: I'm working on the next vsec packages, I've finished the cap_over stuff and will release new version soon
[05:13] <pitti> trulux: how far is the todo list?
[05:16] <trulux> pitti: well, we are focusing on vsecurit right now, next will be SELinux. it's going pretty good and I'm proud of the work being done by the volunteers
[05:16] <trulux> pitti: I need your word though
[05:16] <trulux> pitti: I told you I want to work all-together with "official" Ubuntu Linux maintainers
[05:17] <pitti> right, great
[05:17] <trulux> I really suggest you to join the channel, now there's much more activity
[05:17] <trulux> I'll introduce you to Jeff, he's helping me on many vsec-related stuff
[05:17] <trulux> great guy
[05:20] <pitti> Riddell: right, langpack-o-matic could not determine the locale of -af because of the missing mo files
[05:21] <pitti> Riddell: can you please install pkgstriptranslations, activate it in /etc/pkgstriptranslations.conf, and build the package again?
[05:21] <pitti> Riddell: this will produce a _translations.tar.gz
[05:21] <pitti> Riddell: I can sneak this into lamont's directory, so that it is imported
[05:26] <Riddell> pitti: ok
[05:28] <HiddenWolf> any of the server admins, NL.archive.ubuntu.com is having problems again.
[05:29] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: so is uk, us, etc
[05:29] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, what's up then?
[05:29] <Amaranth> no idea
[05:29] <pitti> Keybuk: cool, hal now works without a hotplug.d script and uses a udev RUN rule
[05:30] <Keybuk> yeah
[05:30] <Keybuk> I'm tempted to not run dev.d or hotplug.d from the start
[05:30] <pitti> /etc/hotplug.d$ find -type f
[05:30] <pitti> ./default/default.hotplug
[05:30] <pitti> Keybuk: that means after I uploaded the new hal, udev can be upgraded and hotplug.d can go away
[05:31] <Keybuk> actually, it can't :p
[05:31] <pitti> Keybuk: however, we need to fix libsane and libgphoto
[05:31] <Keybuk> because that default.hotplug is still there
[05:32] <pitti> Keybuk: but it's from hotplug itself?
[05:32] <Keybuk> exactly
[05:32] <Keybuk> it's what _runs_ hotplug :p
[05:32] <pitti> ah, does it to the older-style emulation?
[05:32] <pitti> OIC
[05:32] <pitti> so it runs /etc/hotplug/bus/script?
[05:32] <Keybuk> though obviously, at the same time you upload that new hal
[05:32] <pitti> or, rather, *.agent
[05:32] <Keybuk> I will almost certainly be uploading the new udev
[05:32] <Keybuk> and stuffing hotplug into the jaws of death
[05:33] <pitti> Keybuk: what about sane and gphoto?
[05:33] <Keybuk> hell, there'll probably be a new GNOME out by the time dapper opens :p
[05:33] <Keybuk> pitti: those will break
[05:33] <Keybuk> and then we shall fix them
[05:33] <pitti> Keybuk: AFAICS we need to convert them to use proper device nodes
[05:33] <Keybuk> yes
[05:33] <Keybuk> there's a patch for that
[05:33] <pitti> Keybuk: I just wonder which major/minor numbers to use then?
[05:33] <Keybuk> I have "learn git" on my TODO list
[05:33] <Riddell> pitti: http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/kde-i18n-af_4:3.4.3-0ubuntu2_amd64_translations.tar.gz
[05:33] <pitti> Keybuk: devides in /proc don't have major/minors, have they?
[05:33] <Keybuk> then I'll find out whether that got applied to the kernel
[05:34] <pitti> Riddell: sweet, thanks
[05:34] <Keybuk> pitti: the /proc/bus/usb things aren't proper "devices", they're kernel hacks
[05:34] <pitti> Keybuk: right
[05:34] <Keybuk> there's a kernel patch for them to move them to under /sys where they belong
[05:34] <pitti> Keybuk: that's what I meant, there is no obvious major/minor for them - or does the kernel patch introduce a proper device for those?
[05:34] <Keybuk> I'm not sure whether it introduces a proper device or moves the hack
[05:35] <Keybuk> I'll learn git tomorrow and find out
[05:35] <pitti> cool
[05:35] <Keybuk> (udev itself is now in git)
[05:35] <pitti> Keybuk: or just quickly write git2bzr and use your favourite tool :-P
[05:35] <Keybuk> heh
[05:36] <Keybuk> I'd get complaints for usurping the "import process"
[05:54] <Diziet> -davenant:~> zcat /export/mirror/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz |egrep '^Conflicts:.*<<'  | wc -l
[05:54] <Diziet>     909
[05:55] <ogra> nice
[05:56] <ogra> *many
[05:58] <Diziet> No, the python packages don't seem to do that so badly.  Mainly they're full of dummy packages.
[05:58] <Diziet> -davenant:~> zcat /export/mirror/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz |egrep '^Description:.*transitional'  | wc -l
[05:58] <Diziet>      18
[05:59] <Diziet> Not so bad, even though it's probably an underestimate.
[05:59] <Diziet> -davenant:~> zcat /export/mirror/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz |egrep '^Description:.*dummy'  | wc -l
[05:59] <Diziet>      29
[06:15] <Diziet> ogra: the wiki thinks you had the ubz BOF wiki page lock but it has timed out.
[06:15] <ogra> hmm... i tought i stored
[06:15] <Diziet> Let me know when you've sorted it.  It gave me the lock but I haven't made any edits.
[06:16] <ogra> its stored, edit away
[06:16] <Diziet> Ta.
[06:16] <ogra> thanks for pointing it out :)
[06:16] <Diziet> NP
[06:23] <poningru_class> ls yes
[06:23] <poningru_class> sorry wrong window
[06:25] <pitti> elmo: is it possible to add a new langpack to breezy-updates?
[06:28] <Znarl> HiddenWolf : Hi, I am a server admin.  What's wrong?
[06:33] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, we've been getting gzip/pgp errors for a few days
[06:33] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, W: GPG error: http://nl.archive.ubuntu.com breezy Release: Unknown error executing gpgv
[06:33] <HiddenWolf> W: You may want to run apt-get update to correct these problems
[06:34] <mirak> hi
[06:34] <Znarl> HiddenWolf : Darn, ok.  I'll redirect nl.archive back to the UK.  
[06:34] <mirak> the breezy kernel uses gcc4 or gcc3.4 ?
[06:34] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, where does it go now?
[06:34] <mjg59> 3.4
[06:35] <mvo> HiddenWolf: can you run "apt-get update -o Debug::Acquire::gpgv=true" and store it in a pastebin?
[06:35] <Znarl> ubuntu.ftp.heanet.ie.
[06:36] <HiddenWolf> mvo, http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/3287
[06:38] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, best to wait untill we can get a solid ISP to mirror ubuntu.
[06:38] <mvo> HiddenWolf: thanks
[06:38] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, uk.archive has gotten me up to 600kbs during the Breezy cycle
[06:39] <\sh> hmmm....gstreamer-mad has problems with 24bit mp3s ,-)
[06:39] <\sh> or amarok has problems to receive 24bit mp3-stream correctly
[06:40] <Znarl> HiddenWolf : heanet has 4gigs of bandwidth.  Far far more than most sites.
[06:40] <ogra> \sh, tra with rhythmbox, if it breaks too, its gstreamer... else its amarok
[06:40] <ogra> *try
[06:41] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, true, but it's quite irish. :) #u-nl is working on bugging ISP's about local ubuntu mirrors.
[06:41] <\sh> ogra: yeah...just now when I setup the r200 ;)
[06:42] <Znarl> HiddenWolf : mirrors@canonical.com if any ISPs need to contact us, and yes Heant isn't exactly NL.
[06:43] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, I'm trying to bug my own ISP atm, most have debian mirrors anyhow.
[06:43] <HiddenWolf> I'll piont them there if they're interested.
[06:46] <mirak> are you sure linnux-image 2.6.12-9 is built with gcc 3.4 ?
[06:48] <ogra> mirak, there is no support upstream for newer compilers yet
[06:49] <mirak> I am tring to build the module cdfs from cdfs-src with module-assistant but it fails
[06:49] <mirak> it fails at inserting
[06:49] <mirak> FATAL: Error inserting cdfs (/lib/modules/2.6.12-9-386/kernel/fs/cdfs.ko): Unknown symbol in module, or unknown parameter (see dmesg)
[06:49] <dholbach> does dmesg say anything useful?
[06:50] <mirak> cdfs: Unknown symbol PAGE_BUG
[06:50] <mirak> I used gcc 3.4
[06:52] <carstenh> ogra: JFYI: debian uses a newer compiler with 2.6.12.x
[06:52] <ogra> oh ? 
[06:53] <ogra> has lins finally switched ? 
[06:53] <carstenh> ogra: try cat /proc/version
[06:53] <ogra> *linus
[06:53] <carstenh> Linux version 2.6.12-1-amd64-k8 (buildd@athlon) (gcc version 4.0.2 (Debian 4.0.1-9)) #1 Wed Sep 28 02:31:26 CEST 2005
[06:53] <carstenh> ^^ on debian/amd64
[06:53] <ogra> Linux version 2.6.12-9-amd64-k8 (buildd@king) (gcc version 3.4.5 20050809 (prerelease) (Ubuntu 3.4.4-6ubuntu8)) #1 Mon Oct 10 13:13:36 BST 2005
[06:53] <ogra> ubuntu amd64 :)
[06:54] <ogra> mirak, cdfs-src_2.4.20+2.6.3-2_all.deb ??
[06:54] <ogra> mirak, that somehow indicates it works with 2.4.20 and 2.6.3
[06:55] <HiddenWolf> mvo, just curious, what did you just tell me to execute?
[06:56] <mirak> ogra: cdfs-2.6.12-9-386_2.4.20+2.6.3-2+2.6.12-9.23_i386.deb
[06:56] <ogra> mirak, where di you get that ? 
[06:56] <ogra> *did
[06:56] <mirak> ok this one is built one from sources, wait
[06:57] <mirak> Filename: pool/universe/c/cdfs-src/cdfs-src_2.4.20+2.6.3-2_all.deb
[06:57] <mirak> ogra: this is the sources 
[06:57] <ogra> yup... see above...
[06:57] <mirak> ogra: so it can't work
[06:57] <mirak> ?
[06:58] <ogra> no idea, but thats what i'd guess with these version numbers
[07:01] <mirak> ogra: I will try with debian one
[07:01] <mirak> http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/pool/main/c/cdfs-src/cdfs-src_2.4.20.a+2.6.12-2_all.deb
[07:02] <ogra> most likely it didnt get updated in universe for breezy
[07:04] <mvo> HiddenWolf: it just turns on debug in apts gpg checking
[07:04] <mvo> other than that it's a normal update
[07:04] <HiddenWolf> mvo, cool. :)
[07:05] <mirak> ogra: this works with this one
[07:06] <Znarl> HiddenWolf : Changed nl.archive.u.c.  Please let me know if you still get the same error.
[07:07] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, I'll keep you updated.
[07:07] <Znarl> Thanks, and be aware of DNS cache issues too.
[07:08] <HiddenWolf> Znarl, cool
[07:10] <WaterSevenUb> seb128, would you check http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18050? Can this be solved through a breezy-update?
[07:11] <WaterSevenUb> or someone involved with yelp and ubuntu-docs....
[07:12] <seb128> WaterSevenUb: maybe jbailey has an idea on that
[07:13] <dholbach> WaterSevenUb: what did the guys on #ubuntu-docs say?
[07:14] <WaterSevenUb> dholbach: I'm going to ask them....
[07:14] <dholbach> cool
[07:19] <predius_> guys, theres a problem with kernel 2.6.12-9-686.
[07:19] <predius_> it's compiled with gcc 3.4/
[07:20] <pitti> predius_: that itself is not a problem
[07:20] <predius_> therefore, to compile alsa modules, I had to get gcc-3.4
[07:20] <predius_> hasn't ubuntu switched to 4.0?
[07:20] <dholbach> not for the kernel
[07:20] <predius_> ah.
[07:20] <predius_> k
[07:20] <dholbach> there is other stuff compiled with 3.4 too
[07:20] <predius_> then gcc-3.4 should be also included in build-essential
[07:20] <Amaranth> the kernel fails to compile with gcc4
[07:21] <Amaranth> i think the kernel-source packages depend on gcc3.4
[07:21] <dholbach> predius_: no, it's not the default compiler
[07:21] <pitti> predius_: no, linux-source-2.6.12 build-depends on gcc-3.4
[07:21] <predius_> the headers do not.
[07:21] <^rob^> stupid slow mirror capped at 5500k/sec
[07:21] <predius_> and i need the headers to compile the alsa modules.
[07:22] <^rob^> kinda sad, it's quicker to download a LiveCD and open it in a virtual machine than it is to run updates ;)
[07:23] <^rob^> hrmm, uhoh, Firefox is showing the download at 930 megs so far :(
[07:23] <ogra> predius_, there are alsa modules we dont contain in the linux package ? 
[07:23] <predius_> ogra: i used module-assitant, and did the usual.
[07:24] <ogra> the ususal ? 
[07:24] <predius_> prepare, selected alsa, then did all the steps.
[07:24] <predius_> build failed because compiler was different from kernel compiler
[07:24] <WaterSevenUb> seb128,dholbach, he isn't around I guess.. well I'll try again tomorrow.
[07:25] <dholbach> WaterSevenUb: ok
[07:25] <dholbach> predius_: then you have to set the compiler you use for alsa*
[07:25] <ogra> predius_, and you are sure the module you need isnt already there ? 
[07:26] <predius_> i already did it, but i know what gcc-3.4 and gcc-4.0 mean
[07:26] <predius_> people don't/
[07:26] <predius_> and they would probably get stuck there.
[07:26] <pitti> predius_: people usually don't compile ALSA modules either
[07:27] <pitti> predius_: we already ship ALSA modules, so there is no reason why a newbie would even think about the possibility of compiling ALSA on their own
[07:27] <sivang> hmm, what mirrors do we have for ISO downloads other then the LOndon one in EU ?
[07:27] <pitti> sivang: jigdo rocks :-)
[07:27] <predius_> well, i have to go.
[07:27] <Znarl> sivang : http://www.ubuntu.com/download/
[07:27] <predius_> k
[07:27] <sivang> Znarl: k :)
[07:28] <sivang> pitti: is it straight forward like using bitorrent ?
[07:28] <pitti> sivang: I don't know, bt doesn't work for me
[07:28] <pitti> jigdo-lite http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/breezy-install-amd64.jigdo
[07:28] <pitti> sivang: ^ that's everything
[07:28] <sivang> cool :)
[07:29] <pitti> sivang: of course I wrapped it in a script which automatically mounts my old ISO so that jigdo can scan it, and the like
[07:29] <pitti> but basic operation is trivial
[07:29] <Kamion> jigdo is really only beneficial if you have either a local mirror or an old image
[07:30] <pitti> sivang: and you can use an arbitrary mirror (including local ones) and scan existing iso images, /var/cache/apt/archives, and so on
[07:30] <Kamion> otherwise you might as well download the whole thing :-)
[07:30] <sivang> yes, I'm at my parentt's house, and left my CDRW with the latest daliy at my flat :-/
[07:30] <sivang> so it will be from-scratch download for me
[07:31] <pitti> sivang: then it's indeed no big win, unless your connection to any mirror is significantly faster than cdimage.u.c
[07:31] <\sh> digital tv nrw is broken again :( 
[07:33] <\sh> I hope I can fix it remotely via phone :(
[07:33] <jbailey> ogra: Like my cats when they're hungry? =)
[07:34] <ogra> hehe...
[07:34] <sivang> pitti: is there a .de mirror for the ISOs ?
[07:35] <pitti> sivang: none that I'm aware of
[07:35] <ogra> jbailey, now that you remind me, i have to feed mine... thats the strange noise from the kitchen ... :)
[07:35] <pitti> sivang: well, my local hard disk :-)
[07:35] <sivang> hehe, ok
[07:35] <dholbach> sivang: i pushed out 7GB of isos, but i guess, i don't qualify as a mirror :)
[07:35] <jbailey> ogra: One of mine has discovered that standing on my hair when I'm sleeping 1) Wakes me up, 2) Keeps me from effectively beating him away. ;)
[07:36] <dholbach> . o O { cats... :) }
[07:36] <Nafallo> \sh talked about something 4Gbit pushing out isos.
[07:36] <Diziet> Hmm.  It looks like most of our HUGE diff from firefox upstream is not necessary any more.
[07:36] <ogra> mine like to put their paws in your mouth while you sleep... 
[07:37] <\sh> fck...
[07:37] <Diziet> And Debian's diff against 1.4.99betawossname is a snip at 5k lines or so.
[07:38] <dholbach> Nafallo: oh, i was just talking about 7 gigabyte i pushed in total :)
[07:38] <Nafallo> dholbach: yea, but I'm sure it wasn't you on 4gb/s he was talking about. if you only did 7GB on that speed I'm amazed ;-).
[07:39] <dholbach> haha :)
[07:39] <Nafallo> \sh: fck? :-)
[07:40] <\sh> yes...I have to eat my dinner and hurry into office :(
[07:40] <Nafallo> ehm, oki :-P
[07:40] <Nafallo> df
[07:40] <Nafallo> hf even
[07:41] <\sh> Nafallo: there is no fun involved anymore
[07:41] <Nafallo> \sh: something bad happened then? :-/
[07:41] <\sh> Nafallo: just because i'm the "ops guy living 20 mins from office, so lets call him"
[07:42] <ogra> Nafallo, 4mio customers without TV ...
[07:42] <sivang> pitti: should jigdo-list be available by path?
[07:42] <Nafallo> ah. you should move to za, they can't say that then :-)
[07:42] <pitti> sivang: I never heard about -list
[07:42] <sivang> pitti: err, nm. got it.
[07:43] <sivang> pitti: it's not in jigdo pkg, only in jigdo-file
[07:43] <pitti> sivang: right, jigdo is for creating images
[07:43] <Nafallo> ehm, jigit anyone? :-)
[07:43] <sivang> lol
[07:45] <\sh> Nafallo: oh yes...moving to ZA helps a lot ;)
[07:47] <Nafallo> \sh: well.. sure. they can't say you're the closest one to the office then :-)
[07:47] <sivang> nice, I'm getting HTTP connection timeotus. Iguess I'll stick to rsyncing.
[07:47] <\sh> so laptop testing team has to wait for my report of breezy final a little bit longer
[07:47] <sivang> \sh: how does it help? 
[07:50] <\sh> sivang: first of all: I can eat biltong all the time, second, I can have chili cheese lam burger at durbans coconut grove take away every day and third, I could try to work for a IT company which is using linux as their fav. standard OS ;)
[07:50] <\sh> but first I have to find no. three to achieve goal 2 and 1
[07:51] <Nafallo> \sh: just keep the server on your old job... :-P
[07:51] <sivang> \sh: hehe :-)
[07:51] <\sh> Nafallo: well...there is no server at my old job...digital tv is only using some pieces of strange appliances running shareware ,-)
[07:52] <Nafallo> hihihi
[07:52] <\sh> Nafallo: and the ISP plattform (which is also our responsibilty) is running without any problems...only digital tv :(
[07:53] <\sh> ogra: you have my voice at TB if i'm not back at 20 UTC...
[07:53] <\sh> bbl
[07:53] <sivang> anybody else have experienced the low throughput from a.u.c (rsync) ? It used to be almsot using most of my bandwidth but now...
[08:05] <pitti> sivang: why do you rsync from archive?
[08:08] <sivang> pitti: to be able to continue downloaidng should the downlod fail
[08:08] <pitti> sivang: from archive?? you mean from cdimage?
[08:08] <sivang> pitti: hrm, yes
[08:09] <pitti> sivang: wget -c can continue an interrupted download
[08:09] <pitti> sivang: rsync is a total waste if you don't have an existing image
[08:09] <sivang> I had the impression it was less robust
[08:09] <sivang> ok, will do that now, thanks!
[08:09] <sivang> (robust in recovering an interrupted download)
[08:11] <dereks__> pitti: rsync would be appropriate for a mirror though, right?
[08:11] <sivang> pitti: yet, I think the archive is crying under the load
[08:11] <pitti> dereks__: sure, yes
[08:12] <ogra> dereks__, you win with rsync if you only snyc diffs
[08:12] <ogra> else its just a normal download, even if you use rsync
[08:12] <dereks__> ogra: hmmm
[08:13] <ogra> i.e. if yo already have an archive, the binary difference only get synced...
[08:13] <dereks__> ogra: i just built a new comp with tons of hd space to spare, so i was going to make a mirror that syncs nightly
[08:13] <ogra> during breezy release cycle i could rsync a CD image in 6-10 min over a 768k line here
[08:13] <dereks__> for my computers
[08:13] <ogra> (between two dailies)
[08:14] <dereks__> using rsync
[08:14] <ogra> thats great... just the first rsync will be a normal download... later you only get diffs
[08:14] <dereks__> right
[08:14] <dereks__> i would just run " rsync://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu" nightly right?
[08:14] <Kamion> dereks__: rsync's pretty hard on servers - I wouldn't use it for lots of smallish files
[08:15] <dereks__> Kamion: so initially do a wget?
[08:15] <Kamion> unless I was running a full mirror, in which case the maintainability win is obvious
[08:15] <dereks__> then rsync?
[08:15] <Diziet> I reallyshould package up magicmirror  one of these days.
[08:15] <Kamion> dereks__: if you're running a full mirror, it's best to get in touch with admins so that they can point you to a good local mirror to rsync from, rather than everyone turning up and trying to rsync from archive.u.c
[08:16] <Kamion> saving Diziet's magicmirror, debmirror's probably the simplest packaged option
[08:16] <dereks__> Kamion: alright, i will keep that in mind, first i have to figure out why amd64-smtp isn't working :)
[08:16] <Diziet> Maybe I'll do that tomorrow.  That way I can put off fighting the ffox diff swamp :-).
[08:18] <Kamion> ogra: you don't get any download-differences-only win with rsync over (something like) debmirror, because the files in a Debian-style archive are either preserved, or replaced by files with different names; rsync can't deal with renamings automatically, and in any case .debs aren't usefully rsyncable in general
[08:18] <ogra> Kamion, ah... ok, i have not much archive mirroring experience...
[08:19] <Kamion> it's much more useful for large files like CD images because (a) their names don't change often and (b) they tend to be quite rsyncable, in that only bits of the file change from day to day
[08:20] <Diziet> I should bolt jigdo into the back of it too, so you can have a daily CD ready and waiting each morning, just in case.
[08:20] <ogra> Diziet, is jigdo better than rsync for that ? 
[08:21] <Diziet> Yes, much, if you're keeping a mirror anyway.
[08:21] <Kamion> ogra: if you're already downloading the files for a local mirror anyway, jigdo saves you from having to download them again
[08:21] <Kamion> read up on how the various tools work, then the trade-offs should be more obvious :)
[08:22] <ogra> yes, will do ;)
[08:25] <dereks__> kikidonk: ping?
[08:26] <kikidonk> dereks__: yes :)
[08:26] <kikidonk> yes ?
[08:26] <dereks__> kikidonk: just wanted to say, amazing work on deskbar
[08:26] <kikidonk> oh ! thanks
[08:26] <dereks__> my favorite new toy :)
[08:26] <kikidonk> cvs is much better
[08:27] <dereks__> hmmm, are you going to make me upgrade now :)
[08:27] <kikidonk> there is also a #deskbar on Gimpnet, if you want
[08:27] <kikidonk> i'd do it :P
[08:27] <dereks__> ahh, let me head over
[08:46] <herzi> gut, dann kopier' ich dir die auch noch fix
[08:46] <herzi> sorry
[08:46] <bddebian> yar
[08:46] <bddebian> :-)
[08:46] <herzi> echan
[08:54] <HiddenWolf> pitti, why the violence?
[08:55] <pitti> HiddenWolf: It took me 45 minutes to debug a problem that is eventually a tarfile bug
[08:55] <HiddenWolf> That sucks. :(
[08:56] <pitti> HiddenWolf: when I add several files to an open tarfile, it randomly creates hardlinks to already existing files
[08:56] <pitti> if I close and reopen the tarfile object in between, it works
[08:56] <HiddenWolf> pitti, nice.
[09:13] <pitti> any python expert here?
[09:15] <sivang> mvo: ping
[09:20] <zyga> hi
[09:21] <sivang> hey zyga 
[09:22] <\sh> really..some days I should erase from my calendar
[09:23] <zyga> I've finally got a working low end printer for linux :)
[09:23] <zyga> and it's really pretty too...
[09:23] <zyga> :-)
[09:32] <mvo> sivang: pong
[09:33] <zyga> cool article on ./ about yellow dot patterns in laser printers
[09:43] <sabdfl> mjg59: around for the TB in 15?
[09:44] <mjg59> sabdfl: Sure
[09:44] <sabdfl> \sh: yeah, agreed, it's been one of those
[09:44] <sabdfl> mjg59: cool
[09:44] <Kamion> (guessing it won't open today after all, although perhaps I'm underestimating the remaining few hours)
[09:44] <ajmitch> morning all :)
[09:45] <ajmitch> jbailey: ping
[09:45] <jbailey> Andrew my friend!
[09:45] <ajmitch> jeff!
[09:45] <jbailey> each.
[09:45] <\sh> sabdfl: what happened?
[09:45] <ajmitch> a bit early in the morning for that, but oh well :)
[09:46] <sabdfl> \sh: just trying to get some launchpad stuff landed, and also move myself over to Phase III
[09:46] <ajmitch> jbailey: where do I access the mounted root filesystem form initramfs?
[09:46] <\sh> sabdfl: nice...I just had another idea to improve ubuntu for server admins ... 
[09:46] <jbailey> ajmitch: Once it's mounted, it's in /root
[09:47] <ajmitch> jbailey: right, when does it get mounted?
[09:47] <sabdfl> \sh: ok, put it on the TB agenda, unless its a spec, then put it on the UBZ agenda :-)
[09:47] <\sh> sabdfl: but this is so crazy that I have to think about this idea again and have to do some diagrams
[09:47] <ajmitch> jbailey: I'm wanting to load selinux policy as early as possible, and it'd be nice to read it from disk
[09:47] <ajmitch> \sh: sounds tempting
[09:47] <\sh> sabdfl: it's more a "beat RHN" ,-)
[09:47] <jbailey> ajmitch: You could probably do this in local-bottom and be certain.
[09:47] <jbailey> Or perhaps we should have an init-bottom hook.
[09:48] <ajmitch> jbailey: those hooks run before udev, are the lvm device nodes created before then?
[09:48] <\sh> sabdfl: I just mentioned a word in a mail about the kernel thread...but right now, don't take me too serious about it...
[09:48] <ajmitch> I saw that lvm/evms, etc are in init-top
[09:49] <jbailey> ajmitch: local-premount should have all of the lvm nodes and stuff already.
[09:49] <jbailey> I think most of those get created in local-top
[09:50] <ajmitch> ah right, local-top
[09:50] <ajmitch> local-premount has suspend
[09:50] <jbailey> Right.  That's the last ditch effort to resume before we mount the partition and screw it all up.
[09:50] <ajmitch> jbailey: the main thing is ensuring that both files & processes get the right labels/contexts
[09:51] <ajmitch> which is why sysvinit is currently patched, and it's not just done in an init script
[09:52] <jbailey> ajmitch: Great!  What's a labael/context? =)
[09:52] <jbailey> Got a site for me to look at? =)
[09:53] <ajmitch> jbailey: files get labels when they're created
[09:53] <ajmitch> processes get contexts, which the kernel uses to allow access to things :)
[09:55] <ajmitch> jbailey: there might be a quick summary site, for some weird definition of quick
[09:56] <jbailey> *lol*
[09:56] <sabdfl> \sh: not a bad idea, feel free to get into more detail with benc and fabbione about it. fabbione has similar thoughts
[09:57] <jbailey> ajmitch: Is it important for every file on disk to be touched like that?
[09:57] <ajmitch> jbailey: it's important that every file that is created gets created with the right label, if it's to be used
[09:57] <\sh> sabdfl: well it was only "real life thinking" and experiences from some companies which are running more then 100 servers ;)
[09:57] <ajmitch> relabelling the whole disk manually isn't often done
[09:58] <ajmitch> but it is possible to relabel :)
[09:58] <ajmitch> it's the kernel that assigns these labels, with the policy loaded :)
[09:58] <sabdfl> \sh: elmo builds monolithic kernels too. i like the idea of making that easier
[10:00] <\sh> sabdfl: well it's a matter of how ubuntu defines "support". I don't think we will have much problems with the desktop (well, ok if ubuntu will focus as well pixelpark, then we have to apply server rules as well to the desktop), but for the server, admins are more conservative then Mr. Bush will ever be
[10:01] <tseng> haha
[10:01] <tseng> you are funny
[10:01] <\sh> Or Mrs. Merkel in germany ,-)
[10:01] <ajmitch> yay politics
[10:02] <bddebian> Oh here we go again, it's always got to descend into US bashing doesn't it?
[10:02] <\sh> forget the politics...
[10:03] <dholbach> bddebian: first in #ubuntu-bugs and now in #ubuntu-devel?
[10:03] <\sh> meeting now
[10:03] <ajmitch> bddebian: that was no bashing :P
[10:03] <mjg59> bddebian: Calling the US president conservative isn't really bashing
[10:03] <mjg59> (But yes, this isn't the time or place)
[10:04] <ajmitch> jbailey: will talk to you later about, I need to look at the code more ;)
[10:04] <\sh> it wasn't personal...if I hurt somebody, please take my sorry..
[10:08] <bddebian> \sh: Nah.. :-)
[10:17] <chimaera> re
[10:17] <HiddenWolf> ogra, congrats on that blog entry. :)
[10:18] <dereks__> who would i talk to about questions about kernels built for different architectures?
[10:18] <ogra> hehe... thats really something that makes me feel its done... i havent had the feeling yet :)
[10:18] <chimaera> err, no re.. missing a "k". bye ;)
[10:18] <ogra> HiddenWolf, thanks
[10:29] <sourcequench> I'm pretty sure I have a bug in the breezy installer for AMD64.  Would this be the right place to mention it?
[10:29] <tseng> bugzilla would be better
[10:29] <tseng> assuming its not already reported there
[10:30] <sourcequench> I didn't see anything--I'll go submit it.
[10:30] <tseng> great, thanks.
[10:33] <HiddenWolf> ogra, but still, is sitting around #ubuntu having fun a contribution at all, is writing docs, is it coding, or fixing bugs? 
[10:57] <zyga> Treenaks: ping
[10:57] <chimaera> hi. can anyone tell me where the the zd1211 module (wifi) expects to find the configuration for the card? even if i comment the essis, i get " ****** Can't find desiredSSID:" after plugging in the device..
[10:57] <zyga> Treenaks: about the bearded guy issue
[10:57] <zyga> Treenaks: is there any way to make him less ... dithered!
[10:57] <zyga> chimaera: check #ubuntu
[10:57] <chimaera> zyga: thanks.
[11:27] <dholbach> good night guys
[11:27] <ogra> night dholbach 
[11:29] <crimsun> night daniel
[11:32] <ajmitch> jbailey: you just have test hardware you ran on?
[11:32] <jbailey> ajmitch: I used my laptop for all my initramfs-tools stuff.
[11:33] <ajmitch> right
[11:33] <jbailey> ajmitch: I do almost all of my tests on real iron.
[11:33] <ajmitch> I don't have my laptop beside me right now, so I guess I'll test at home :)
[11:33] <ajmitch> it needs another fresh install anyway
[11:39] <zyga> does anyone remember who has made that tiny python app, fanboy?
[11:40] <mvo> zyga: IIRC it was keybuk
[11:41] <zyga> mvo: I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record player
[11:41] <zyga> but I've got i18n patches and minor bugifix ;-)
[11:41] <allee> I've a keycodes & description of a Dell USB keyboard.  How to proceed? File a wish (against with pkgs?). Write a xkb file? Add to wiki Keycodes page? Or ...? Any hints lifeless|mjg59?
[11:42] <mdke> allee, bug against acpi-support i think
[11:42] <allee> + keycodes of multimedia keys that is
[11:43] <allee> mdke: Sure? with usb acpi is not involved.
[11:43] <allee> I have a look at acpi-support pkg
[11:43] <mdke> perhaps I'm wrong
[11:43] <mdke> but I'm sure it will be reassigned
[11:45] <allee> mdke: yeah. it will.  I like the idea :)
[11:47] <zyga> lol
[11:48] <zyga> the only things you can't avoid in life are death, taxes and Ubuntu reviews.
[11:48] <Mithrandir> you can avoid some of them by attaining the first one.
[11:50] <lifeless> Mithrandir: nup, because then they are not 'In life'. :)
[11:50] <Mithrandir> well, point.
[11:50] <zyga> Mithrandir: unless you're caught by the other two while waiting in line for the first ;] 
[11:51] <Mithrandir> lifeless: but are you alive when doing taxing ubuntu releases?
[11:51] <lifeless> Mithrandir: FSVOA
[11:51] <zyga> actually doing taxes on ubuntu is not so nice..