[12:10] <sabdfl> elmo: ping
[12:12] <sabdfl> Kamion: the .dsc file i'm looking at has a Source: and Binary: lines, and a Version:. It also seems to list 2 files, the orig.tgz and the diff.gz, with digests. Why does it not give the digest of the .deb too?
[12:13] <sabdfl> is there a file which has the .deb's with digests, produced by a single build of the source package?
[12:13] <jbailey> sabdfl: The .dsc file is for the source files.  The .changes file is for the .debs
[12:14] <jbailey> The changes file also includes the digest for the .dsc.
[12:18] <sabdfl> jbailey: ok. does the .changes file include sha1's?
[12:18] <jbailey> sabdfl: They're md5sums.
[12:18] <sabdfl> ok
[12:18] <sabdfl> hmm... ok, that's a start, anyhow
[12:19] <jbailey> I can include my standard wishlist response about package signatures here. =)
[12:19] <sabdfl> jbailey: you betcha. we need to improve the whole structure. only question is how to transition it :-)
[12:19] <sabdfl> though it does work remarkably well
[12:19] <jbailey> I think it depends which problems we're trying to solve first, really.
[12:20] <jbailey> The nice part is that almost any change I can think of has been debated around enough times, so we never have to start from square 1.
[12:20] <sabdfl> we just have to pick a square? there are so many to choose from. vote for mjg59 to improve our square selection algorithms.
[12:21] <sabdfl> where can i get the copy of the .changes file for any given binary in the archive?
[12:21] <ogra> heh
[12:21] <jbailey> Isn't he a biologist?  I don't think square things occur in biology. =)
[12:21] <kiko> ahoy changes people
[12:21] <jbailey> The .changes files get eaten by elmo's harem in processing.  IIRC, In Debian they're kept somewhere for auditing afterwards.
[12:22] <kiko> jbailey, are they in katie, I wonder -- or the information?
[12:22] <ogra> they are at least on a -changes ML
[12:23] <jbailey> kiko: Dunno.  I looked at it when I was running the hurd-i386 buildd, and when I was writing multibuild and turtle, but that was a few years ago. =)
[12:23] <ogra> after katie processed them...
[12:23] <ajmitch> hello kiko 
[12:23] <jbailey> s/writing/helping write/
[12:24] <kiko> hey ajmitch 
[02:00] <schweeb_> fabbione: around?
[02:31] <lifeless> `anthony: ping
[02:33] <Kinnison> ciao all
[03:15] <bddebian> Hello
[05:19] <Am|NickTaken> bed time
[06:20] <fabbione> morning
[06:30] <Keybuk> ARE WE THERE YET?
[06:32] <fabbione> bella Scott
[06:43] <schweeb_> fabbione: have you heard much from anybody installing the SPARC port?  gonna be messing around with it on my blade 1500 in the next few days
[06:43] <fabbione> schweeb_: yes i did hear from several people. What do you need to know exactly?
[06:44] <fabbione> schweeb_: i can tell you that in 99% of the cases X autoconfiguration will not work and mostlikely hang your machine at end of phase2
[06:45] <fabbione> schweeb_: if your box is SMP with Sparc III or > you need to run UP kernels
[06:45] <schweeb_> heard anything specifically from people on 1500s possibly?
[06:45] <schweeb_> it's a single proc IIIi, 1.5ghz, iirc
[06:45] <fabbione> schweeb_: if you have qla2200 controller or similar you might get a problem on the 3rd reboot (patch is pending for the next kernel)
[06:45] <fabbione> UP is fine.
[06:46] <fabbione> schweeb_: i think David Miller installed on his SB1000
[06:46] <fabbione> without any problem
[06:46] <fabbione> other than X.. that's it
[06:46] <fabbione> and they are pretty similar hw
[06:47] <schweeb_> is there a ports mailing list or anything, or where is the proper place to discuss this, so I don't bug people (you) on dev all the time :-P
[06:47] <schweeb_> (ports mailing list that is)
[06:47] <fabbione> schweeb_: we have #ubuntu-ports
[06:47] <fabbione> no mailing list yet
[06:47] <fabbione> but the traffic is still low, so there is no point in abusing infrastructure for a ML
[06:47] <schweeb_> right
[06:48] <fabbione> schweeb_: anyway i am pretty sure you are goot to go on that box
[06:48] <schweeb_> I'm just hyped to possibly get rid of Solaris 10 at work, heh.... my last experiences with hoary and Blade 2000 weren't that good though
[06:48] <fabbione> schweeb_: yes i know.. hoary was crap on sparc
[06:49] <fabbione> at least the installer works for breezy
[06:49] <fabbione> and in theory it goes all the way to gdm :)
[06:50] <schweeb_> heh
[06:50] <fabbione> (modulo X autoconf/hanging)
[06:50] <schweeb_> I can handle X config
[06:50] <fabbione> exactly :)
[06:50] <schweeb_> been doing that crap for years now
[06:50] <fabbione> schweeb_: btw.. OO2 on sparc is way way way faster than the amd64  equivalent :P
[06:50] <schweeb_> haha
[06:50] <fabbione> and i mean a lot faster
[06:51] <fabbione> amd64 3000+ 1G or RAM idle.. 16 secs to open oowriter
[06:51] <schweeb_> all I do with my workstation is run remote X apps, and 3270, for the most part
[06:51] <fabbione> sparc64 433Mhz 512MB of RAM busy as buildd... oowrite 19 secs.
[06:51] <schweeb_> I just feel more comfortable in a linux environment
[06:52] <fabbione> schweeb_: eheh i understand.. slowlaris is not exactly nice, if you don't know it in deep details
[06:52] <schweeb_> fabbione: if I weren't proxied off, I'd offer up a few workstations for distcc'ing
[06:52] <schweeb_> chrysler has me all proxied though
[06:52] <fabbione> schweeb_: thanks :) don't worry
[06:52] <lifeless> distcc-over-irc :)
[06:53] <schweeb_> fabbione: I have 4 1.5Ghz Blade 1500's w/ 1G RAM that sit and don't do much
[06:53] <fabbione> schweeb_: ever played with vtun? :P
[06:53] <fabbione> schweeb_: that would be 4 really nice buildd :P
[06:53] <schweeb_> ssh tunneling of any sort doesn't work
[06:54] <schweeb_> not sure how vtun works though
[06:54] <fabbione> schweeb_: check vtun on port 80 :)
[06:54] <schweeb_> I know when I was doing SSH tunneling over 443, they figured it out, and looked for the OpenSSH advert
[06:54] <fabbione> ah
[06:55] <schweeb_> so they're doing some kind of app layer filtering or something now
[06:55] <fabbione> they are not that blind than
[06:55] <schweeb_> right :-/
[06:55] <fabbione> schweeb_: what protocols can you contact outside?
[06:55] <schweeb_> HTTP, HTTPS, FTP
[06:55] <fabbione> oh plenty
[06:56] <schweeb_> I'll hafta look into vtun
[06:56] <fabbione> schweeb_: check vtun.. and see if you can make it to talk on port 20
[06:56] <fabbione> (ftp-data)
[06:56] <schweeb_> most of the stuff I saw that people used revolved around running SSH on alternate ports, so I kinda gave up
[06:56] <fabbione> there is no way a proxy can really understand what kind of traffic is passing there
[06:57] <schweeb_> at least I think I can do FTP, haven't tried in a while
[07:00] <schweeb_> not much in the way of docs
[07:01] <schweeb_> fabbione: well, if I can scrounge up a blank CD somewhere, I'll have an installation report for you tomorrow
[07:04] <fabbione> schweeb_: you need to do netinstall
[07:04] <fabbione> CD installs are broken
[07:04] <fabbione> but the netinstall can cope with proxies just fine
[07:05] <schweeb_> ugh
[07:05] <fabbione> well if you are talking about the miniso it's fine
[07:05] <schweeb_> I couldn't get rarp working today
[07:05] <fabbione> but you can't do pure CD installs
[07:05] <schweeb_> yea, mini.iso "net install"... CD boot, networked install
[07:05] <fabbione> i wrote that in the announce 
[07:05] <fabbione> yup
[07:05] <fabbione> that works just fine
[07:05] <schweeb_> good good
[07:06] <schweeb_> couldn't get rarp or bootp working... think they block broadcasts at the switches
[07:06] <fabbione> yeah that's not an issue.. just use the miniso
[07:06] <schweeb_> k
[07:06] <fabbione> but you can't do normal CD install because apt is crashorama with sources.list deb file://
[07:07] <fabbione> and we did find out a bit too late
[07:07] <schweeb_> hehe
[07:07] <schweeb_> well, I'm headed to bed
[07:07] <fabbione> good night
[07:07] <schweeb_> got an early meeting w/ mgmt... thanks for the help
[07:07] <fabbione> no problem!
[07:07] <fabbione> looking forward to hear how it did go
[08:06] <dholbach> hellas!
[08:06] <bob2> guttentahg
[08:07] <dholbach> nearly :)
[08:07] <dholbach> "guten tag", but you were close :)
[08:07] <bob2> ah, dang
[08:07] <daniels> good morning, face of motu
[08:08] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, guten morgen is correct also, right? :)
[08:08] <Keybuk> http://www.google.com/intl/xx-klingon/
[08:08] <Keybuk> ...why have I never seen that before? :p
[08:08] <dholbach> HiddenWolf: yes :)
[08:08] <fabbione> Keybuk: did you see the hacker one?
[08:09] <dholbach> good morning daniels
[08:09] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, thanks, my German is rusty. :S
[08:09] <bob2> oh, wow
[08:09] <bob2> you're #1 on google for "face of motu"
[08:09] <dholbach> WOW
[08:10] <bob2> 30-odd for MOTU
[08:11] <Lathiat> haha
[08:11] <dholbach> now we just need some more people :)
[08:11] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, time will get you that. :)
[08:12] <dholbach> ouch... just read, there's a guy who called his son "google"
[08:13] <HiddenWolf> dholbach, that'll get him a job, and his son a life in hell. ;)
[08:13] <infinity> And when that kid gets older, and people ask him "Hey, Google, what's up with <thing X>?", he can shrug and reply "search me..."
[08:14] <HiddenWolf> That's a name that'll get him into trouble.
[08:14] <HiddenWolf> When he's out at night, and a police officer is asking for his name, and he says google, they'll likely bring him in for being cheeky.
[08:15] <HiddenWolf> There was that story about Winston Churchill's son, Winston Churchill jr, who got beaten by police because they believed he was messing with them...
[08:39] <dholbach> how do i set myself as default assignee for packages in bugzilla?
[08:43] <dholbach> :)
[08:44] <dholbach> hey jerome, how are you?
[08:45] <ajmitch> evening all :)
[08:45] <jsgotangco> still alive :-) cleaning up some training materials i got from the IOSN...colin charles was the one who did the project and used the hoary live cd to make a custom cd for the IOSN
[08:45] <dholbach> oh wow
[08:45] <jsgotangco> yeah it's blue :)
[08:46] <jsgotangco> the training materials are still in fedora though
[08:48] <jsgotangco> its not a bad thing (fedora) but the materials just dont fit atm
[08:50] <Amaranth> anyone got some time to kill?
[08:51] <fabbione> Amaranth: ???
[08:51] <Amaranth> http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte-0.8beta2.tar.gz (new version of smeg)
[08:51] <Amaranth> extract and run alacarte-0.8/src/alacarte
[08:51] <Amaranth> i need people to try to break it
[08:53] <Amaranth> fscking gmail dies right when i need an attachment from one of my mails
[09:00] <Amaranth> night folks
[09:02] <jsgotangco> wwooo so its now alacarte :)
[09:27] <pitti> Good morning
[09:27] <dholbach> hellas pitti
[09:27] <hunger> Hi pitti
[09:27] <\sh> moins
[09:35] <mvo> hey pitti 
[09:36] <jdub> ogra: http://www.stroven.org/blog/?postid=63
[09:36] <pitti> mvo: yay apt-get source -t hoary :-)
[09:36] <dholbach> jdub: already told him, he was quite pleased :)
[09:36] <Treenaks> jdub: Hey, you found your way back to The Buttplug? :P
[09:37] <mvo> pitti: needs testing, but works for me(tm) :)
[09:38] <jsgotangco> have you guys seen the Ubuntu-tan?
[09:39] <Treenaks> dholbach: http://olympiads.win.tue.nl/ioi95/photo/fot4.jpg
[09:39] <Treenaks> dholbach: the national war monument, re-christened "The Buttplug" by jdub 
[09:40] <jsgotangco> Treenaks, errr nice
[09:40] <Keybuk> spooky, I have that almost exact picture
[09:40] <Treenaks> Keybuk: most tourists do :)
[09:40] <Keybuk> and I stayed at the same hotel as jdub
[09:40] <pitti> mvo: well, for apt-get source this sounds relatively easy, compared to apt-get install 
[09:40] <Keybuk> jdub is stealing my past!
[09:41] <zyga> morning
[09:41] <Treenaks> Keybuk: oh no! next thing you know he'll start hacking on dpkg
[09:41] <Keybuk> seems Diziet is doing that these days
[09:41] <mdz> morning
[09:42] <mvo> hey mdz, isn't it in the middle of the night for you?
[09:42] <mdz> 0042 local time
[09:42] <mvo> good morning then :)
[09:42] <fabbione> hey mdz
[09:43] <ajmitch> morning mdz :)
[09:47] <Mithrandir> teh mdz.
[10:01] <ogra> jdub, yeah, its already in the topic of #edubuntu ;)
[10:01] <ogra> morning :)
[10:11] <jdub> http://www.livejournal.com/users/jwulf/7170.html
[10:11] <jdub> fedora guy about ubuntu ^
[10:12] <Keybuk> they're learning
[10:13] <Keybuk> you know Alex, the FP girl?
[10:13] <Treenaks> frontpage?
[10:13] <Keybuk> Fedora Project
[10:13] <jsgotangco> fedora live? not a bad idea
[10:13] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, they got money from Google to do it
[10:14] <jsgotangco> Colin Charles told me about it as well a few days ago
[10:14] <bob2> who is in here spying on us at this very moment!
[10:14] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:15] <Keybuk> Alex Maier
[10:15] <Keybuk> found her business card, heh
[10:15] <Keybuk> bumped into her at LinuxWorld, she was sniffing for how to make FUDcon and the Fedora Community in general better :P
[10:15] <jdub> hrm, archive seems to be out of sync again
[10:16] <jdub> Znarl, elmo: ping
[10:16] <fabbione> jdub: yes.. i already opened an rt request for it
[10:16] <jdub> ta
[10:17] <fabbione> 2 mirrors and ports are in manual mode = desync every 30 minutes or every time there is a security/updates upload
[10:30] <Znarl> jdub : I'll sync archive.
[10:38] <sabdfl> Kamion: some questions about the soon-to-be-announced server iso's
[10:39] <ajmitch> sabdfl: what did you mean with this change? : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources?action=diff
[10:41] <sabdfl> ajmitch: as discussed, where we are creating the packages, we don't do that
[10:41] <sabdfl> Xorg
[10:41] <sabdfl> and others
[10:41] <ajmitch> right, in universe we tend to do that though
[10:41] <sabdfl> i'm even not convinced about the first bullet point, since cross grading is not supported
[10:41] <sabdfl> ajmitch: please don't
[10:41] <Kamion> there's actually a problem with initramfs-tools at the moment due to that - it's been incorporated into Debian, and now is being developed on both sides with clashing version numbers
[10:41] <ajmitch> specifically that it becomes 1.2.3-0ubuntu1
[10:41] <Kamion> Debian initramfs-tools 0.31 != Ubuntu initramfs-tools 0.31
[10:42] <seb128> is there any plan to fix the website certificate?
[10:42] <ajmitch> so that we don't get those problems as Kamion says
[10:42] <sabdfl> elmo told me to tell people the certs are broken because he is crap
[10:42] <sabdfl> ;-)
[10:42] <seb128> ah ah :)
[10:42] <sabdfl> if we do the work to get it up, debian can defer to that
[10:43] <Kamion> they generally won't, though :-)
[10:43] <sabdfl> Kamion: on the server iso's, is smp installed by default
[10:43] <sabdfl> Kamion: the polite folks will win over, given time
[10:43] <ogra> sabdfl, the versioning is important in universe for packages entering debian at some point. they can be synced more easy so we lower the workload
[10:43] <sabdfl> ogra: debian can equally well sync from ubuntu
[10:43] <Kamion> sabdfl: should be; the SMP kernels are on the CD
[10:44] <sabdfl> we should not put ourselves in the position where we plan to do the work on both sides
[10:44] <Kamion> haven't tested though, I have no SMP systems :-)
[10:44] <sabdfl> that's not collaboration
[10:44] <sabdfl> Kamion: so, in theory, it should detect that and install the smp ones by default?
[10:44] <sabdfl> if its an smp box?
[10:44] <Kamion> sabdfl: in theory. we're missing some changes to d-i post-breezy-UVF that improved SMP detection
[10:45] <Kamion> so I would not like to guarantee it
[10:45] <sabdfl> ok. i'll trust in The Force and put it in the announcement.
[10:45] <Kamion> rootskel (1.19) unstable; urgency=low
[10:45] <Kamion>   * Add boot scripts for x86 and alpha to grep dmesg for strings indicating an
[10:45] <Kamion>     SMP machine and store this info in /var/numcpus for later use by
[10:45] <Kamion>     base-installer. This avoids the info being lost when the ring buffer
[10:45] <Kamion>     overflows.
[10:45] <Kamion> specifically that
[10:46] <sivang> Morning all!
[10:46] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[10:46] <ajmitch> morning sivang, pitti 
[10:46] <Kamion> sabdfl: even if that fails, people will at least get the -686, -k7, -amd64-k8, etc. kernels, which is still an improvement
[10:47] <ajmitch> sabdfl: if we upload as 1.2.3-1, and debian does the same with a different package, we'll get changes overwritten on next debian upload
[10:48] <\sh> sabdfl: so you think we should name new packages in debian as it is with new packages in debian? maj.min.rev-1?
[10:48] <Kamion> right, including "ubuntu" in our version numbers is a defence
[10:48] <Kamion> against autosync
[10:48] <Kamion> if we drop it we're going to get autosyncs when we don't expect them
[10:48] <\sh> grmpf...
[10:49] <\sh> 10:48 < \sh> sabdfl: so you think we should name new packages in debian^Wubuntu as it is with new packages in debian? maj.min.rev-1?
[10:49] <ajmitch> \sh: patience :)
[10:49] <Kamion> ajmitch: he was correcting himself, "debian^Wubuntu"
[10:49] <sabdfl> hmm.
[10:49] <ajmitch> aha
[10:49] <sabdfl> in future, we will be syncing from LP to LP, which gives us the ability to be smarter about this
[10:50] <ajmitch> the autosync issue shows up when we have differing dependencies for example (python 2.3 vs 2.4)
[10:50] <Kamion> even so it will be difficult to accurately merge changelogs (on the human side) if version numbers clash too often
[10:50] <Kamion> and just highly confusing in general
[10:52] <Kamion> with good cooperation I agree you can resolve most problems, but you do have to have active cooperation :)
[10:52] <\sh> sabdfl: I don
[10:52] <Kamion> I recently added an epoch to new rewritten tzsetup-udeb and apt-setup-udeb packages in Debian to make sure they would supersede our base-config-based hacks, for instance
[10:53] <\sh> sabdfl: I don't see the point? what is the problem at all, to have something line -0ubuntu1? it gives the utnubu people the possibilty to see new packages in ubuntu and not in debian easily..and I think it's better for a good co-operation of ubuntu and debian... a plain debian version scheme will cause more confusion
[10:53] <sivang> hey ajmitch , pitti 
[10:53] <\sh> s/line/like/
[10:54] <sabdfl> \sh: part of the challenge of collaborating with debian is that the debian guys tend to assume they should not have to think or do anything different
[10:54] <sabdfl> if we continue to reinforce that, there's no incentive for them to decide they really want to collaborate
[10:54] <sabdfl> collaboration is a two way street
[10:54] <ogra> the big advantage is that debian grabs our packages, does the main work on them and we can easily resync and only do minor tweaks... we loose this ability
[10:54] <sabdfl> no matter how far we bend, we can't do it alone
[10:54] <pitti> sabdfl: but what does this have to do with version numbers?
[10:55] <sabdfl> pitti: nothing, except that our current sync system looks at them, imo
[10:55] <pitti> sabdfl: by not being able to tell apart the origin of a package, we make it harder for both us and Debian AFAICS
[10:55] <sabdfl> pitti: why should debian own OUR package version namespace?
[10:55] <sabdfl> and in LP, we can tell the origin of a package
[10:55] <pitti> sabdfl: it's not ours
[10:55] <Kamion> because it's not our namespace
[10:55] <sabdfl> yes it is
[10:55] <pitti> sabdfl: Debian invented it and we adopted it
[10:55] <Kamion> we are merging with Debian; in order to do that we MUST share the namespace
[10:55] <pitti> we based Ubuntu on Debian, so it is unfair to hijack Debian's namespace
[10:56] <sabdfl> were not hijacking it
[10:56] <Kamion> the fact that we're merging means that we have to] 
[10:56] <sabdfl> the issue comes when packages move between the two
[10:56] <sabdfl> so, we need to be smart when we bring debian packages into ubuntu, and they need to be smart when they do the reverse
[10:56] <pitti> sabdfl: you mean an Ubuntu package is adopted to Debian?
[10:56] <pitti> right
[10:56] <sabdfl> if we assume the responsibility of getting it right both ways, we will always be on the back foot
[10:56] <pitti> debian->ubuntu works well so far, I see the difficulty in the other direction
[10:57] <Kamion> I agree that Debian need to be smart, but it's not Debian we're helping by -0ubuntu1, it's ourselves
[10:57] <ogra> pitti, worked fine in the past
[10:57] <sabdfl> pitti: currently debian -> ubntu depends on the version number, for autosync
[10:57] <pitti> so you mean we can't easily sync ubuntu packages to debian
[10:57] <sabdfl> we can discuss this more at UBZ
[10:57] <pitti> yes, probably better
[10:57] <sabdfl> the main thrust of what i'm getting at is not technical, it's psychological
[10:57] <pitti> probably I don't see the full background yet
[10:57] <dholbach> sabdfl: i'd perfectly agree with you, if the changelog would be as clear as possible (referring to patches that are available on the net and changes are mentioned)
[10:58] <ogra> sabdfl, it currently depends on the -XubuntuX tag, not on the numbering
[10:58] <dholbach> but in the most cases it's not
[10:58] <Kamion> I think we need to consider other technical approaches, or we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot
[10:58] <sabdfl> we need to see the relationship between ubuntu and debian as one of peers, not master/servant
[10:58] <sabdfl> and they need to do so too
[10:58] <pitti> sabdfl: it almost seems that we need kind of a "Distribution:" field in source package .dsc files
[10:58] <Kamion> it's called Origin:, HTH
[10:58] <sabdfl> if we continue to act in a master/servant way, it will reinforce that perception on the other side
[10:58] <pitti> Kamion: oh, thanks
[10:58] <sabdfl> anyhow
[10:59] <pitti> we need *something* that tells apart Ubuntu and Debian versions, otherwise we'll step on each other's feet
[10:59] <ajmitch> pitti: agreed
[10:59] <zyga> what about -ubuntu- ?
[10:59] <pitti> I agree that there are maybe more elegant somethings than the version
[10:59] <ogra> sabdfl, i dont see a master/servant thing here, we create a package, debian grabs it, does the further work and we can resync from them ith having less work
[10:59] <ogra> it saves manpower
[10:59] <ogra> (for us)
[10:59] <sabdfl> ogra: if we are the ones always having to step out of the namespace, we are the servant
[10:59] <Keybuk> sabdfl: I agree with you philosophically, but technically your argument is bullshit :p  we need that ubuntu marker so we no not to overwrite our own changes when we take from Debian
[10:59] <dholbach> the problem is rather finding the changes, not indicating that there were changes at all, which kamion already said
[10:59] <sabdfl> kamion's point on defensiveness is exactly right
[11:00] <Keybuk> we can talk about removing it when we have an LP sync infrastructure
[11:00] <sabdfl> it *does* help us to stay out of debian's way
[11:00] <\sh> well...actually it sounds like the RPM problem a couple of years ago
[11:00] <sabdfl> but that also reinforces the perception, on both sides, that we should somehow always defer
[11:00] <Keybuk> it isn't there for debian, it's there for us
[11:00] <Kamion> \sh: yeah, and RPM is now a hideous minefield nobody trusts because they broke each others' namespaces
[11:00] <zyga> Keybuk: BTW: I've got a patch for your fanboy applet
[11:00] <pitti> maybe we can actually use Origin: for that distinction
[11:00] <ajmitch> seeing two packages with the same version, yet different changes made, is going to be very confusing
[11:00] <sabdfl> we'll figure it out
[11:01] <\sh> Kamion: yes...because there was no way to tell if it's a redhat/suse/mandrake rpm...only from the inside u could see who worked out more strange code ,-)
[11:01] <sabdfl> the goal we set was to be "good at collaborating", but that does not mean "avoiding stepping on other toes"
[11:01] <pitti> sabdfl: sounds like an interesting BoF topic :-)
[11:01] <Kamion> there's also the issue of dependencies
[11:01] <Kamion> versioned ones, specifically
[11:01] <sabdfl> pitti: we spoke about this at both mataro and sydney
[11:01] <Keybuk> there's also the issue of finding a common base for merges
[11:02] <Kamion> I realise our current system is a bit broken (1.0-2 > 1.0-1ubuntu1 but not necessarily an ancestor), but at least if you see "ubuntu" in a versioned dependency you know that it depends on an Ubuntu feature and can take account of that while merging
[11:02] <sabdfl> and the conclusion in both cases was that it is not possible to do a proper job of giving apt enough information to know exactly how to cross-grade
[11:02] <pitti> oh, then I probably had been in other BoFs at that time
[11:02] <Keybuk> we can't do that if we can't trust our changelog to not stamp over debian version numbering
[11:02] <Kamion> if we lose that we will really have no clue whatsoever about what's going on
[11:02] <Kamion> I rely on that in debconf/base-config/similar a lot
[11:02] <sabdfl> therefor, it makes no sense to give the IMPRESSION that it is doable.
[11:03] <Kamion> I'm not particularly bothered about cross-grading personally
[11:03] <Keybuk> sabdfl: but those ubuntu markers _are_not_ there for cross-grading
[11:03] <sabdfl> keybuk's right, this does depend on our ability to know automatically the pedigree of a package, and be smart
[11:03] <sabdfl> Keybuk: they were initially
[11:03] <Keybuk> no, they weren't
[11:03] <sabdfl> yes they were
[11:03] <Keybuk> they were also there so we knew where to merge from
[11:03] <infinity> sabdfl : The only way to cross-grade halfway reliably is with a pin-priority > 1000, which will force downgrades to the "right" packages.  I'm not sure changing how we version things will fix that.
[11:03] <sabdfl> no, thats just how you started to use them :-)
[11:04] <zyga> \sh: that's a good point
[11:04] <sabdfl> \sh: that's the point. we can't reliably provide enough information for the package management system to understand two distros
[11:04] <Kamion> letting developers know what's going on on either side is far more important than cross-grading or anything to do with apt IMO
[11:04] <sabdfl> LET ALONE debian + ubuntu  + guadalinex
[11:04] <ajmitch> infinity: which is what I did to do sid->breezy, and that was rocky enough
[11:04] <sabdfl> and there are those who will try to make that work :-)
[11:05] <Kamion> without feature dependencies we don't have a better option there currently
[11:05] <sabdfl> Kamion: right, but there must be a better way to do that than trying to bung this info in the version number
[11:05] <sabdfl> we had this conversation in mataro
[11:05] <sabdfl> look at the rpath mess
[11:05] <sabdfl> branched version number hell
[11:05] <dholbach_> it requires more organisation and clarity in the packaging on both sides, i don't think we can solve that technically
[11:05] <Kamion> sabdfl: definitely in the future, but it's *not there yet* so abandoning our current system before it's there is scary
[11:05] <sabdfl> ok, agreed
[11:05] <sabdfl> Kamion: ^
[11:05] <ajmitch> good
[11:06] <Kamion> I really like feature dependencies and I wish we had them about once a week
[11:06] <sabdfl> Keybuk: ^
[11:06] <Keybuk> Kamion: elmo thinks they're total crack :p
[11:06] <\sh> sabdfl: please change the wiki page to something like "Packages not in debian yet should end with revision -0ubuntu1 (TBDiscussed)" ,-)
[11:06] <pitti> Kamion: but it seems that this requires far more discipline and awareness from package maintainers than the current system
[11:06] <Kamion> pitti: that's true
[11:07] <Kamion> of course package maintainers for whom it doesn't matter don't have to use them
[11:07] <pitti> Kamion: e. g. for libraries we can generate versioned deps with shlibs, we can hardly do that with features
[11:07] <pitti> it would rock, but I'm not sure whether it scales robustly to 10.000 packages
[11:07] <Kamion> I don't think it would be needed in 10,000 packages
[11:07] <sabdfl> \sh: please go ahead and make that change
[11:07] <pitti> no, of course not
[11:08] <Kamion> stuff like debconf and cdebconf is where it really wins - at the moment we're trying to transition to cdebconf yet nobody knows what features in debconf people are really relying on that aren't in cdebconf yet
[11:08] <pitti> well, it certainly shouldn't replace shlibs anyway
[11:08] <\sh> sabdfl: do u have something like a bof to link to? so we know about what we're talking :)
[11:08] <sabdfl> \sh: please add a spec "PackageVersionConflicts", register in LP and add to UBZ agenda
[11:08] <sabdfl> Kamion: does the server iso avoid usplash?
[11:09] <Keybuk> there's a UBZ agenda now?
[11:09] <Kamion> and people are doing debconf (>= version-where-some-feature-was-added) | debconf-2.0 without any guarantee that the debconf-2.0 provider includes that feature
[11:09] <Kamion> $ cat data/breezy/preseed/ubuntu-server/ubuntu-server.seed
[11:09] <Kamion> # Don't install usplash.
[11:09] <Kamion> d-i     base-installer/kernel/linux/extra-packages-2.6  string
[11:09] <sabdfl> Keybuk: https://launchpad.net/sprints/ubz
[11:09] <Kamion> sabdfl: yep :)
[11:09] <sabdfl> Kamion: good man
[11:09] <Keybuk> sabdfl: cute, that's working now ... it gave me System Error when I played on localhost :p
[11:09] <Kamion> (likewise the server mode in our normal images)
[11:09] <fabbione> sabdfl: server iso's are the rock.. Kamion did really really really good there :)
[11:10] <Kamion> heh
[11:10] <Keybuk> sabdfl: elmo would just compile his own kernel and disable initramfs support
[11:10] <Keybuk> s/would/does/ :p
[11:10] <sabdfl> do we manage to avoid any other installer questions in the server case?
[11:10] <Kamion> somebody filed a bug about ten minutes after the first image that added usplash
[11:11] <Keybuk> sabdfl: those are all LP specs, is there one for Distro?
[11:11] <Kamion> sabdfl: we never show that "download language support packages?" question; it's forced to false
[11:11] <Kamion> sabdfl: apart from that, no others at the moment
[11:11] <ajmitch> Keybuk: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs ?
[11:11] <pitti> Kamion: do you configure a proper root user on servers? or use sudo as well?
[11:11] <fabbione> Kamion: i don't even think there is space to remove more questions, is it?
[11:11] <Kamion> pitti: still sudo
[11:12] <Kamion> by the elmo-o-meter I figured that was probably ok ;)
[11:12] <pitti> Kamion: I learned to love sudo on my desktop, but I'm still using root on my server; but maybe that's just me
[11:12] <infinity> pitti : I don't have a password on my root users on servers.
[11:12] <infinity> pitti : (I sometimes have a joey-inspired root backdoor user if I feel the need, but root itself has no password)
[11:12] <pitti> infinity: I'm still paranoid enough to not allow root ssh login, so that an attacker has to overcome two passwords
[11:12] <sivang> sabdfl: how do you add something to the ubz agenda? this page seems immutable
[11:13] <infinity> pitti : They'd have to overcome an SSH key and a password for me, since I only use passwords for sudo, not for SSH logins.
[11:13] <ajmitch> \sh: see URL I pasted above 
[11:13] <sabdfl>  * Includes server-oriented kernels with out-of-the-box
[11:13] <sabdfl>    automatic support for multiprocessor systems
[11:13] <sabdfl>  * Includes a wide variety of popular server applications
[11:13] <sabdfl>    such as apache, mysql, postgresql, php, zope, openldap,
[11:13] <sabdfl>    bind, samba, all on the single CD, ready for installation
[11:13] <sabdfl>  * A slim default installation, occupying just 400 megabytes:
[11:13] <pitti> infinity: right
[11:13] <sabdfl>    add only the software you need, for a clean, maintainable
[11:13] <sabdfl>    configuration.
[11:13] <sabdfl>  * Provides no desktop environment (GNOME, KDE, etc.) by default
[11:13] <infinity> pitti : So, similar effect, but still no root password (and easier sharing of root privs with others)
[11:13] <sabdfl>  * Safe and text-oriented boot mode for better clarity and
[11:13] <sabdfl>    infinite justice on boot.
[11:13] <sabdfl>  * Secure by design, with no network ports active after install
[11:13] <sabdfl>    and automatic, free security updates activated
[11:13] <sabdfl> would that be fair?
[11:14] <Kamion> infinite justice> :-)
[11:14] <Kamion> that looks pretty good to me
[11:14] <sabdfl> a little fnord for those who care
[11:14] <pitti> Kamion: oh, just to make sure (I haven't checked): you install "postgresql-8.0", not "postgresql", right?
[11:15] <Kamion> pitti: both 7.4 and 8.0 are on the CD
[11:15] <Kamion> we don't install either by default
[11:15] <sabdfl> nothing should be installed by default
[11:15] <pitti> ah, I see
[11:15] <infinity> sabdfl : s/last/only/?  Yeah, I still remember the hell we went through in Debian getting that all sorted.
[11:16] <Keybuk> Kamion: oh, that reminds me, I had some weird freaky error from ssh early
[11:16] <Kamion> pitti: bare postgresql isn't on the CD, only postgresql-<stuff>
[11:16] <\sh> ajmitch: thx...but first I have to do real life work :(
[11:16] <Keybuk> Kamion: Corrupted MAC on input
[11:16] <pitti> Kamion: good, thanks
[11:16] <Keybuk> Kamion: any idea what that means?
[11:16] <ajmitch> \sh: yeah, I know how that feels :)
[11:16] <Kamion> Keybuk: er, usually means actual network data corruption AFAIK
[11:16] <sabdfl> infinity: yeah, i only remember one too.
[11:16] <Keybuk> it went away after I rebooted the server
[11:16] <infinity> sabdfl : But on any "server" worthy of the name, SSH is your only head (unless you're lucky enough to have LOM hooked up)
[11:17] <Keybuk> isn't network data corruption impossible under TCP? :p
[11:17] <Kamion> it means that the MAC on (seqnr, packet) didn't match
[11:17] <sabdfl> infinity: point being, if he installs it, it's HIS head ;-)
[11:17] <sivang> lol
... Fair enough.  We're all bright enough to install ssh ourselves.
[11:17] <infinity> I'll retract my opposition. :)
[11:17] <Kamion> Keybuk: well, either that or ssh is horribly confused, obviously, but I don't know the packet layer anywhere near well enough to guess
[11:18] <sabdfl> \sh: go to any product, or distro, in launchpad, click on Specifications tab at the top, then "Register New Specification"
[11:18] <infinity> I still need to look at the base package set that server installs get, and see if we can make it even smaller.  I tend to start from just about nothing on my machines.
[11:18] <Kamion> Keybuk: did restarting sshd not help?
[11:18] <sabdfl> so, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[11:18] <sivang> ha! found it :)
[11:18] <Kamion> it won't make any difference to the server install, but I'd like to move the filesystem stuff from minimal out to standard at some point
[11:18] <sabdfl> \sh: to add a spec to the UBZ agenda, first register it in LP as above, then view the spec, and look for "Add to Meeting Agenda" in the menu
[11:18] <Keybuk> Kamion: no
[11:19] <Kamion> Keybuk: sounds like your TCP stack blew up, to me
[11:19] <Keybuk> the machine's been freaky for a while
[11:19] <Keybuk> maybe it's dying
[11:20] <Kamion> there's also some stuff that can move out once base-config goes away, although I think that's probably post-dapper
[11:20] <sivang> sabdfl: yeah, I was just noticing that one :) I was sure it would appear somewhere in the sprint view
[11:20] <Kinnison> moinmoin
[11:21] <ajmitch> hello Kinnison 
[11:21] <sivang> Kinnison: Morning!
[11:21] <Kamion> perhaps the last remaining network clients should move out to standard too
[11:21] <sabdfl> sivang: problem there is the selector gets more complex because you'd have to pick product/distro, then the spec
[11:22] <Kamion> (ethtool, iputils-ping, mii-diag, netcat - on second thoughts maybe not the mii/ethtool stuff)
[11:22] <sivang> sabdfl: ah
[11:22] <Kamion> infinity: the problem with minimal is that it's overloaded between (a) stuff you shouldn't remove and (b) stuff needed for the first boot to work properly
[11:23] <Kamion> alsa's in there so that blacklists are there at the first boot
[11:23] <pitti> Hi Kinnison! AWTY? :-) 
[11:23] <Kinnison> pardon?
[11:23] <ajmitch> pitti: sshh, you'll jinx it :)
[11:23] <pitti> Kinnison: just tickling, nevermind
[11:24] <pitti> Kinnison: (I'm just eager to actually upload some crack I prepared for dapper)
[11:24] <infinity> Kamion : Yeah.  I know.  It's sticky.
[11:25] <pitti> oh, forcing alsa being installed on servers sucks...
[11:25] <pitti> OTOH, nobody forces a server admin to keep -minimal installed, right?
[11:25] <Mithrandir> it's just a metapackage
[11:25] <Kinnison> pitti: I'm eager to let you
[11:26] <infinity> Kamion : I tend to be able to get down to a very bare filesystem that looks a lot like Essential+Required+PartsOfImportant... Not sure how well that maps to minimal currently.
[11:26] <Kinnison> pitti: just gotta get the data imported cleanly first
[11:26] <hunger> pitti: Well, -minimal kind of suggest that you shouldn't remove the stuff in there.
[11:26] <pitti> Kinnison: no hurry, my disk (hopefully) won't crash until tomorrow
[11:27] <ajmitch> pitti: push the upload somewhere else then :)
[11:27] <hunger> pitti: We will all try to hack you and make your HDD crash now;-)
[11:27] <pitti> hunger: don't! ~/ubuntu is not automatically backed up
[11:27] <ajmitch> hunger: he's the security guy here :)
[11:27] <hunger> That reminds me of a guy that wanted to hack me... and that I handed my IP to to try: 127.0.0.1
[11:28] <pitti> hunger: lol
[11:28] <ajmitch> pitti: people.ubuntu.com is ready & waiting for you :)
[11:28] <hunger> He actually managed to crash that box...
[11:28] <pitti> hunger: my IP is 'almost' localhost, I'm behind a crazy NAT
[11:28] <ajmitch> very clever of him
[11:28] <pitti> hunger: with a chainsaw?
[11:28] <pitti> hunger: oh, "that" != yours
[11:28] <hunger> pitti: He informed me that I was lucky that his box had crashed just after he started his attack on mine...
[11:29] <pitti> lol
[11:29] <pitti> hunger: you mean, he is clever enough to apply a remote DoS, but he is totally illiterate in IPv4 namespaces?
[11:29] <pitti> odd guy...
[11:29] <ajmitch> hunger: it's better if you give out an ip address like 127.64.115.178
[11:30] <pitti> ajmitch: won't work. 127 is /24 by default
[11:30] <ajmitch> I thought it was defined as /8 in the rfcs?
[11:30] <pitti> (of course you can reconfigure it)
[11:30] <pitti> oh , wait
[11:30] <pitti> sorry, I mixed that up with my other local net
[11:30] <ajmitch> :)
[11:31] <hunger> pitti: Clever enought to remote DOS == clever enough to run some script he found on the net.
[11:31] <pitti> hunger: ah, ok
[11:31] <pitti> ajmitch: I don't actually have a route entry for 127.
[11:31] <hunger> pitti: Did you have a look at the cryptodisk script yet?
[11:31] <pitti> hunger: no, sorry
[11:31] <pitti> hunger: and no time for it in the near future, I'm afraid
[11:32] <ajmitch> pitti: neither do I, but ifconfig shows a /8 mask 
[11:32] <pitti> hunger: just upload it yourself :-)
[11:32] <pitti> ajmitch: right, for me too
[11:32] <hunger> pitti: Well, I need to fix it up somewhat anyway... work fine in normal operation, does give a error when run during shutdown though.
[11:33] <koke> the wacom kernel module is included by default in breezy's kernel, isn't it?
[11:33] <hunger> pitti: Better not. I can not commit to maintaining a package at this time (no time for it, at least not on a regular base)
[11:34] <pitti> right, then maybe just file a bug about it
[11:34] <pitti> and attach the new script
[11:34] <hunger> pitti: I thought I had done that before... let me check.
[11:35] <hunger> pitti: I'll check on friday. can't get to the launchpad fropm behind this firewall:-(
[11:41] <hunger> malone is the bugtracker of choice now, isen't it?
[11:45] <Kamion> hunger: nearly
[11:45] <Kamion> we haven't "officially" switched over from bugzilla yet; there'll be an announcement when we do, I imagine
[11:45] <ajmitch> the breezy release announcements did go out stating that bugs were to be filed in malone, iirc
[11:45] <hunger> It looks *UGLY* in IE (Mozilla can not access it from here, really strange FW layout they have)
[11:46] <ajmitch> hunger: don't worry, it looks ugly in firefox as well :)
[11:46] <hunger> ajmitch: Well, at least I was able to read stuff as it did not render things one atop the other:-(
[11:47] <ajmitch> ah, that sounds a bit broken
[11:48] <hunger> ajmitch: Well, even MS is nowadays asking webdesigners to fix their pages...
[11:49] <hunger> ajmitch: Looks like IE7 won't be able to support all the brokeness of IE6:-(
[11:52] <sabdfl> mjg59: does mjg59@ubuntu.com reach you, eventually?
[12:03] <mjg59> sabdfl: Not that I know of
[12:24] <ajmitch> jdub: ping
[01:26] <Lathiat> pitti: to mount, format, look at your disks?
[01:26] <Lathiat> and to look horrid as your buttons go off the edge of the tab page they are on?
[01:26] <pitti> but it doesn't even write fstab
[01:26] <pitti> we should rather use pysdm in dapper
[01:27] <Lathiat> pysdm?
[01:27] <pitti> that was a SoC bounty
[01:27] <Lathiat> well, disks-admin is part of uh
[01:27] <pitti> python storage device manager
[01:27] <Lathiat> gnome-system-tools or whatever it is
[01:27] <pitti> yes
[01:27] <Lathiat> pysdm is the result of the bounty?
[01:27] <pitti> well, the functionality of these two should be merged
[01:27] <pitti> Lathiat: yes
[01:27] <infinity> "a part of g-s-t" doesn't make it worth including.
[01:27] <Lathiat> infinity: i know, just saying
[01:27] <Lathiat> pitti: nice
[01:27] <infinity> We dropped boot-admin cause it had integration issues too.
[01:28] <Lathiat> nice to see some good stuff coming out of it
[01:28] <sivang> depends what we define as our main suit for admin tools, or not define it at all :)
[01:28] <Lathiat> its missing a dependancy on python2.4-glade
[01:28] <Lathiat> -glade2, that is
[01:28] <Lathiat> well i cant say its pretty
[01:29] <pitti> it's not as eye-candyish as disks-admin
[01:29] <pitti> but it actually *works*
[01:29] <Lathiat> yeh
[01:29] <Lathiat> just needs a little work
[01:30] <Lathiat> wow
[01:30] <Lathiat> it even writes nicely formatted lines in /etc/fstab!
[01:30] <Lathiat> like, it lines up with the defaults
[01:30] <Lathiat> not quite sure what the dynamic configuration bit is doing
[01:30] <pitti> yes, I pushed Kronoss hard to not screw up the formatting
[01:31] <pitti> Lathiat: you can configure udev rules with it
[01:31] <Lathiat> man, if this got a bit of UI love it'd be totally sweet
[01:31] <pitti> so, tell, "if I plug in this Sony USB stick, make it appear as /dev/sonymusic"
[01:31] <pitti> or whatever
[01:31] <Lathiat> oh ok
[01:31] <pitti> or give it certain permissoins
[01:32] <pitti> it's not so important for Gnome with all our Utopia foo
[01:32] <pitti> but udev rules are the automount magic of the poor :-)
[01:32] <Lathiat> heh
[01:32] <pitti> (IOW, they work nicely on old computers without hal/g-v-m/gnome overhead)
[01:32] <sivang> pitti: the udev rules thingy are quite nice
[01:33] <Lathiat> 10 points lost for not autodetecting new devices
[01:33] <sivang> pitti: could be use also for yet-not-hal-detected hardware no?
[01:34] <pitti> Lathiat: right, it needs some hal love
[01:34] <pitti> sivang: yes, as long as it is a block device
[01:34] <Lathiat> but yeh, thats totally rocking
[01:34] <pitti> Lathiat: it was just too late for breezy
[01:34] <Lathiat> i assume 'jaime pastor' is the dev and not just the packager?
[01:34] <Lathiat> kronoss@kronoss.org
[01:34] <pitti> yes
[01:34] <pitti> he is both
[01:35] <pitti> well, I heavily helped him with the packaging, of course
[01:35] <pitti> but he did it himself
[01:35] <pitti> Hi Seveas 
[01:36] <Seveas> hi
[01:36] <ajmitch> hello Seveas 
[01:36] <Seveas> mornin'
[01:43] <sivang> is wiki.ubuntu.com down?
[01:45] <infinity> Bah.
[01:45] <infinity> pitti : pysdm is teh suck here.
[01:45] <pitti> infinity: in what regard?
[01:45] <infinity> pitti : The only "partition" it lists is "sda"... Which is obviously useless. :)
[01:45] <pitti> infinity: ah, I saw this before; I thought Kronoss fixed it
[01:45] <pitti> infinity: can you please remove /etc/blkid.tab and try again?
[01:46] <pitti> infinity: pressing "Update" doesn't help?
[01:46] <infinity> Update didn't help.
[01:46] <infinity> Neither does removing that file.
[01:47] <infinity> s/update/refresh/
[01:47] <infinity> But, yeah.  No dice.
[01:47] <pitti> infinity: "sudo blkid" does not give any information about /dev/hd*?
[01:48] <infinity> sudo blkid works fine.  Give me /dev/sda[12356]  and /dev/evms/sda[12356] 
[01:48] <pitti> infinity: oh, you don't actually have IDE drives then?
[01:48] <infinity> No, SATA.
[01:48] <pitti> ah
[01:48] <infinity> Don't see how that should matter.
[01:49] <sivang> pysdm doesn't seem to go out of the freeze it fire up with
[01:49] <pitti> infinity: well, so only having sda in pysdm is correct, isn't it?
[01:49] <pitti> when hda isn't there?
[01:49] <infinity> pitti : No, it only has "sda"... No partitions listed, just the raw disk.
[01:49] <pitti> ah, suck
[01:49] <pitti> sivang: I noticed that, too
[01:49] <pitti> still some work to do as it seems
[01:49] <infinity> Which, uhm, works much better if I run it as root.
[01:49] <sivang> pitti: is it in main? ;-)
[01:49] <pitti> infinity: *cough*
[01:49] <infinity> It's only the read-only non-rott display that sucks.
[01:50] <infinity> non-root, even.
[01:50] <infinity> (Still broken, but less broken, I guess)
[01:50] <pitti> infinity: the menu entry uses gksudo
[01:50] <pitti> sivang: no, universe for now; it was too late for breezy
[01:50] <sivang> infinity: ah, works well when run as root
[01:50] <pitti> infinity: so we need a check for uid == 0
[01:50] <infinity> Eww, that "hasn't been configured, would you like to?" popup is annoying too.
[01:51] <Lathiat> infinity: yeh it could do with makign it part of the dialog
[01:51] <jdub> ajmitch: pong
[01:51] <sivang> pitti: and offer to run with gksudo otherwise?
[01:52] <sivang> pitti: I notice that I can enable journaling, I thought journaling is enabled by default in ext3 , no?
[01:53] <pef> hello
[01:53] <ajmitch> jdub: just about ops in #ubuntu
[01:53] <infinity> Hrm.  Also, shouldn't it mount the filesystem after I set it up?
[01:54] <infinity> I guess I could click the mount button.
[01:54] <ajmitch> jdub: what do you think about adding rob^ ?
[01:57] <jdub> dunno
[01:57] <jdub> i guess if existing ops want to, and CC says yeah, then it's good to go
[01:57] <ajmitch> I thought I'd run it past you first :)
[01:57] <jdub> or maybe if CC says existing ops can agree to bless someone else
[01:57] <jdub> i don't have a strong opinion
[02:00] <\sh> sabdfl: why didn't you offer Bob Young a job? ;)
[02:02] <azeem> W 26
[02:02] <azeem> oops, sorry
[02:03] <sivang> anybody knows when w.u.c comes up again? Znarl ?
[02:04] <sivang> ah, it just did. sorry for the noise then.
[02:05] <HiddenWolf> w?
[02:07] <sabdfl> \sh: interesting development, isn't it?
[02:07] <sabdfl> i did try to hire the founder of gentoo
[02:07] <sabdfl> good guy
[02:07] <Lathiat> drobbins?
[02:07] <jdub> *mmm*, IronPython
[02:08] <sivang> he works for M$ or was that someone else from gentoo ?
[02:08] <Lathiat> yeh thats drobbins
[02:08] <Lathiat> im pretty sure its him + hes the gentoo founder
[02:09] <Lathiat> Gentoo founder and former Gentoo Chief Architect Daniel Robbins began a new position at Microsoft on 23 May 2005. According to drobbins: "I'm helping Microsoft to understand Open Source and community-based projects."
[02:09] <Lathiat> http://www.gentoo.org/news/20050613-drobbins.xml
[02:09] <infinity> Ironic, given that Gentoo snagged Debian's Social Contract as a basis for their own.  That's not the sort of thing you'd expect from someone who the njumps ship to the proprietary software world.
[02:10] <HiddenWolf> infinity, it's not like he's a traitor to the cause. :P
[02:10] <Lathiat> infinity: i guess he takes the "helping Microsoft to understand Open Source and communit-basd projects" to justify that
[02:10] <HiddenWolf> "cause" 
[02:10] <Lathiat> what h
[02:10] <Lathiat> what hes actually doing there i have no idea
[02:10] <infinity> I assume they're helping him undrstand that being paid a lot is nice and makes your girlfriend love you more.
[02:11] <HiddenWolf> infinity, why is it you don't approve?
[02:11] <HiddenWolf> infinity, the man is within his right to do it, to spend his life as he wishes.
[02:11] <infinity> HiddenWolf : Of course he is.  I don't have to APPROVE, however, do I?
[02:11] <infinity> That's lunacy.
[02:12] <HiddenWolf> infinity, so why don't you approve?
[02:12] <infinity> I don't approve of people wearing pea green, or fat people in tiny t-shirts, but they can still do so.
[02:12] <Lathiat> whoah, hes only 18 too
[02:12] <TMM> mjg59, hello, are you here?
[02:13] <TMM> mjg59, actually, there, because I am sure you aren't 'here' :)
[02:13] <Lathiat> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.nfp/72
[02:13] <mjg59> Hello
[02:13] <infinity> HiddenWolf : If I, for one second, actually believed he was helping bring them into the free/open software world, I may approve.  But Microsoft has never been too keen on moving in that direction, so I suspect he isn't.
[02:13] <TMM> hello mjg59 :)
[02:13] <Lathiat> h no
[02:13] <Lathiat> thats talkign about someone else
[02:13] <TMM> I was told to talk to you for some laptop-related trouble
[02:13] <Lathiat> i misread it
[02:13] <jdub> infinity: they just announced three open source licenses today
[02:13] <HiddenWolf> infinity, so MS is evil by definition?
[02:13] <TMM> hey jdub ! see you in a couple of hours ;)
[02:14] <jdub> infinity: one bsd-like, one mpl/cddl-like, one look-but-don't-touch
[02:14] <Lathiat> mpl/cddl ?
[02:14] <jdub> annoying that it's more branded license proliferation
[02:14] <infinity> jdub : But what will they license under said licenses?
[02:14] <jdub> but definitely going in the right direction
[02:15] <TMM> mjg59, I've got a host of compaq laptops here, with extra multimedia keys that require some magic poking of memory to get them to work
[02:15] <infinity> HiddenWolf : Did I say that?
[02:15] <jdub> infinity: their existing open source stuff, like ironpythonwix, etc.
[02:15] <mjg59> It's technically poking of the keyboard controller, but yeah
[02:15] <TMM> mjg59, ah, you know that already?
[02:15] <HiddenWolf> infinity, it's the impression you give me.
[02:15] <mjg59> Yeah, but I don't have any hardware here to test it
[02:15] <TMM> mjg59, I've got 3 :)
[02:16] <TMM> mjg59, and I've got the magic values for the rest of the keys too
[02:17] <TMM> mjg59, also, there is a led next to the mute button, that you can set/unset by poking the keyboard controller 
[02:17] <mjg59> Eww
[02:17] <TMM> mjg59, I know, it is not my design, I'm just the messenger
[02:18] <TMM> mjg59, and, the best part, it has absolutly nothing to do with either the soundcard or the mute button, you have to sync that manually :)
[02:18] <mjg59> Haha
[02:18] <TMM> so, anyway
[02:18] <TMM> :)
[02:19] <TMM> do you want to make that work? (ie, would you allow me to make it work) ;)
[02:19] <TMM> ?
[02:19] <TMM> if so, I have a couple of ideas on how :)
[02:19] <TMM> some dirtier than others :)
[02:19] <Treenaks> TMM: look at the hotkey-setup package
[02:20] <Treenaks> TMM: you could do a conditional poke when you detect one of your known compaqs
[02:20] <Treenaks> don't know about the mute led tough
[02:20] <TMM> Treenaks, then, there is still the mute led :)
[02:20] <TMM> Treenaks, indeed :)
[02:21] <infinity> HiddenWolf : I don't believe Microsoft is (or always will be) pure evil.  I do think it's ironic for someone to go from a "we will always be 100% free software" thing to a "teaching a bit about open source to the largest proprietary software vendor in the world who will certainly never make their core business units free without a court order or bankbruptcy"
[02:21] <infinity> bankruptcy, too.
[02:22] <TMM> bankruptcy would fix malone bug #1 :)
[02:22] <mjg59> I have a Mac. I want to boot it off CD.
[02:23] <mjg59> My usb/ps2 adapter doesn't seem to power up fully until too late.
[02:23] <mjg59> How can I make this work?
[02:23] <Lathiat> haha
[02:23] <TMM> mjg59, I think you need to press and hold "d" :)
[02:23] <Lathiat> TMM: with a working keyboard :)
[02:23] <Lathiat> mjg59: dont have another keyboard or something?
[02:23] <mjg59> Lathiat: I have no USB keyboards
[02:23] <Lathiat> that sucks
[02:23] <TMM> mjg59, get one :) 
[02:23] <TMM> mjg59, or get a better converter ;)
[02:23] <mjg59> I'm not buying a keyboard just to boot this device once
[02:24] <Lathiat> maybe you can poke something in openfirmware from macosx or something
[02:24] <TMM> mjg59, you can set the boot device from macosx settings thingy somewhere
[02:24] <TMM> mjg59, perhaps you can set it to cdrom as well
[02:24] <Lathiat> careful in case you cant get it back? ;p
[02:24] <mjg59> TMM: That doesn't let you set CDs
[02:24] <TMM> I think there's a linux tool to set it too
[02:24] <TMM> mjg59, ok, sorry, wasn't sure
[02:25] <Kamion> mjg59: it can certainly be set in the underlying OF, even if the tool doesn't let you do it
[02:25] <TMM> mjg59, borrow an usb keyboard from someone? :)
[02:25] <Kamion> boot-device=cd:
[02:25] <mjg59> Kamion: Yeah. 
[02:26] <Kamion> mjg59: Google suggests that the Darwin console has an 'nvram' command
[02:26] <TMM> mjg59, should I poke the keyboard controller from hotkey-setup or from the acpi scripts?
[02:26] <Kamping_Kaise1> im not sure if i should ask here, but if its not your going to tell me ;). i was wondering why ISA sound cards have had their support dropped from hoary and breezy?
[02:26] <Kamion> nvram VAR=VALUE
[02:26] <mjg59> TMM: hotkey-setup
[02:26] <Kamion> mjg59: only problem is that if you get it wrong you probably don't get another shot at it
[02:26] <mjg59> Kamion: Well, there's the PRAM reset thing, but still
[02:27] <Kamion> mjg59: that requires a keyboard
[02:27] <mjg59> Yeah
[02:28] <Kamion> mjg59: now if you were *really* an OF whiz you'd configure it to bring up the OF telnetd thing straight away and operate it that way
[02:28] <Kamion> but that's rather riskier than setting boot-device :-)
[02:28] <TMM> mjg59, there is currently no poking being done it seems, should I add another .c file to the package?
[02:29] <mjg59> TMM: Hmm. How much poking is needed?
[02:29] <mjg59> There's a perl script that's meant to do it
[02:29] <TMM> mjg59, yeah, I did the extra compaq stuff
[02:29] <TMM> mjg59, omke.pl
[02:30] <mjg59> Kamion: Interesting. It just booted off hard drive again.
[02:30] <TMM> mjg59, not included in ubuntu it seems
[02:30] <mjg59> TMM: Indeed
[02:30] <Kamion> mjg59: odd
[02:31] <TMM> mjg59, so, include omke.pl in it then?
[02:31] <mjg59> TMM: What dependencies does it have?
[02:31] <TMM> mjg59, perl
[02:32] <mjg59> Just perl?
[02:32] <HiddenWolf> doko, ping
[02:32] <mjg59> No other modules?
[02:32] <mjg59> Kamion: Did I need to do anything special to the CD other than just burn the iso?
[02:32] <TMM> mjg59, doesn't look like it (I'm not much of a perl guru)
[02:33] <mjg59> TMM: omke.pl looks to have way more functionality than is needed
[02:34] <TMM> mjg59, a little too much, I can just extract the bits needed obviously
[02:34] <Kamion> mjg59: no. did you create the iso yourself?
[02:34] <mjg59> Kamion: No, it's downloaded from releases.u.c
[02:34] <Kamion> should be no problem then
[02:34] <Kamion> what kind of Mac?
[02:34] <mjg59> Mini
[02:34] <TMM> mjg59, shall I create a stipped version of omke.pl, and include that in hotkeys-setup?
[02:35] <sabdfl> mjg59: does mjg59@ubuntu.com reach you?
[02:35] <Kamion> mjg59: I think a keyboard's going to be necessary
[02:35] <mjg59> sabdfl: Not that I know of
[02:35] <mjg59> Kamion: Is there an OF flag I can set to dump me into it automatically on boot
[02:35] <mjg59> ?
[02:35] <mjg59> I seem to remember one
[02:37] <Kamion> mjg59: set auto-boot? to false
[02:37] <mjg59> That's the one
[02:37] <Kamion> you need usable input-device and output-device
[02:38] <mjg59> (I used to know this stuff)
[02:38] <Lathiat> mjg59: i guess the question is whether your usb adapter is taking too long to power up or not powering up until later in OF?
[02:38] <mjg59> Hurrah, OF
[02:38] <Lathiat> ah, so it worked then?
[02:38] <Kamion> mjg59: is the USB/PS2 adaptor thing purely "you have to wait some number of seconds" rather than "you have to wait for <software> to appear"?
[02:38] <Kamion> ah, basically Lathiat's question
[02:38] <\sh> sabdfl: don't tell anybody from the gentoo universe that u tried to hire daniel robbins ;)
[02:38] <mjg59> boot cd results in "LOAD_SIZE is too small"
[02:39] <mjg59> Kamion: Yeah
[02:39] <mjg59> It's intelligent - it just makes the keyboard appear as a USB keyboard
[02:39] <Lathiat> i got one of them off ebay
[02:39] <Lathiat> unfortunatedly it was a ddgy seller
[02:39] <Lathiat> good thing it was only $10
[02:39] <Lathiat> they sent me some plastic battery pwoered lamp instead
[02:39] <Kamion> try cd:,\\:tbxi
[02:39] <Lathiat> ... after giving me the wrong account numbe rand taking 4 weeks to reply
[02:40] <mjg59> Kamion: Ah, there we go
[02:40] <mjg59> Yay yaboot!
[02:40] <Kamion> cool
[02:41] <mjg59> TMM: If you could strip it down to just the -k stuff, that would be great
[02:42] <TMM> mjg59, np, now, how will I know when to run it?
[02:43] <mjg59> TMM: What dmidecode information do you have?
[02:43] <TMM> mjg59, the output from the dmidecode stuff in the acpi scripts?
[02:43] <mjg59> TMM: Basically, you want to run it on hardware where it should be run. Which is probably mostly HP and some Compaq
[02:44] <TMM> mjg59, there is where it gets a bit tricky :) some of these things are branded compaq but are reported as 'hewlett packard' by the dmidecode stuff, some as 'compaq'
[02:44] <doko> HiddenWolf: pong
[02:45] <TMM> mjg59, still, should I include the dmidecode magic into hp.hk or something? or can I somehow call those scripts?
[02:45] <HiddenWolf> doko, printing from firefox is broken for me. Seems the settings for firefox are different from those used by thunderbird, etc. It's your package, right? 
[02:45] <doko> _my_ package?
[02:45] <mjg59> TMM: If you can put that information up somewhere so I can take a look, that would be good
[02:46] <TMM> mjg59, sure, just a sec
[02:47] <HiddenWolf> doko, actually, never mind, Have to run! :)
[02:47] <TMM> mjg59, http://braam.sytes.net/~hp/compaq_2557eu.txt
[02:48] <mjg59> TMM: Ok. In that case, we may want to check if it's a Presario
[02:48] <TMM> mjg59, and a 2500 I think
[02:48] <mjg59> Just add an extra case below the Tablet one
[02:49] <TMM> or certain evo models....
[02:50] <shadeofgrey> Good morning all you ubuntu coder folks..
[02:50] <TMM> mjg59, yeah, hp is really clear on this isue :)
[02:50] <TMM> mjg59, I'll do some digging on the hp site, I can identify the models that need it by pictures
[02:51] <TMM> mjg59, but I won't know the exact dmi info they produce
[02:51] <shadeofgrey> I was very flattered to see that i made the front pafge of planet.ubuntu.org ....  If I'd known I was going to make such an impact i might have worn a tie
[02:52] <shadeofgrey> you guys need to start thinking about adding voice recognition software to the accessibility software....  Dragon Naturally Speaking and WINE dont like each other very well...
[02:53] <TMM> mjg59, looks like you can't even know the exact type of laptop from the dmi info... sick
[02:53] <shadeofgrey> in fact attempting to get them to work together ended in blaize of glory crash and burn utter failure 
[02:53] <TMM> mjg59, the difference between the 2556eu and 2557eu are pretty drastic (I know, I've got them both) ;)
[02:54] <mjg59> TMM: /win 7
[02:55] <mjg59> Oops
[02:55] <TMM> mjg59, thanks for that remark, very informative ;)
[03:05] <TMM> mjg59, so, what do I do? do I parse dmi info in the hotkey-setup stuff?
[03:06] <mjg59> TMM: Just do what the init script already does
[03:06] <mjg59> Where it checks for *Tablet*, check for Presario*
[03:07] <TMM> mjg59, ahhh, sorry. I missed that 
[03:07] <mjg59> If you get a Presario, enable the keys and include something that sets them up
[03:07] <TMM> mjg59, ahhh, thank you. I didn't know about the debian/init.d script yet
[03:07] <mjg59> Ah, ok
[03:07] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: any idea why autoconf tells me: ***BUG in Autoconf--please report*** AC_ARG_VAR
[03:07] <TMM> mjg59, in a source package
[03:08] <TMM> mjg59, I was going to ask you what ran this :)
[03:08] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: after running aclocal to get the right set of macros.
[03:09] <TMM> mjg59, one other question, I've manually set the resulting keycode from the lock button to the one in hp.mk ( setkeycodes e071 168 ) but, that is binded to 'eject' in gnome... am I doing something wrong?
[03:09] <mjg59> Uhm. Er.
[03:11] <mjg59> No, that looks like my screwup
[03:11] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: nope, not off-hand ... maybe a bug
[03:11] <TMM> mjg59, shall I file a bug? ;)
[03:11] <mjg59> TMM: Heh. Yes, please.
[03:11] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: or, at least, not without context
[03:12] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I'll see if I can reproduce with a minimal configure.in
[03:13] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: a configure.in consisting of AC_INIT(NXlib.h)\nPKG_CHECK_MODULES([X11] , "x11 xorg-server") shows me the problem.  aclocal-1.7 (or 1.9 or whatever), then autoconf.
[03:13] <bddebian> Morning
[03:13] <TMM> mjg59, bugzilla or malone? does it matter?
[03:13] <CarlK> breezy installer bugs - post to bugzilla or the new one?
[03:14] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: could be a pkg.m4 bug then
[03:14] <mjg59> TMM: Malone, probably
[03:14] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: do you have to AC_REQUIRE on AC_PATH_TOOL and such?
[03:14] <TMM> mjg59, ok, and for the compaq stuff, also a bug + patch? or shall I send you a patch directly?
[03:15] <mjg59> Either
[03:15] <TMM> ok then I know enough :)
[03:15] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: AC_REQUIRE expands them at that point
[03:15] <TMM> mjg59, thanks for your time
[03:15] <Keybuk> it's not an "import"
[03:15] <TMM> mjg59, I'll talk to you about the mute led later ;)
[03:15] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: yes, unless they have been expanded earlier, yes
[03:16] <Keybuk> indeed
[03:16] <Keybuk> it can't be used on macros that have arguments
[03:16] <Mithrandir> apparently, this was an autoconf 2.13 bug, invoking 2.50 directly fixed it.
[03:17] <TMM> mjg59, sorry, one more, is there a list of keycodes to use for certain functions? because lock isn't defined in my keyboard shortcuts at all
[03:17] <TMM> mjg59, in gnome anyway
[03:17] <Keybuk> oh, that could totally do it
[03:17] <Keybuk> 2.13 is nasty
[03:17] <Keybuk> always put AC_PREREQ(2.59) in configure.in, or name it configure.ac
[03:18] <Kamion> mvo: do you remember why you added file to debhelper's build-deps?
[03:18] <Keybuk> I'm sure I put one in pkg.m4, actually
[03:19] <TMM> mjg59, should I just leave that to you then? :)
[03:22] <mjg59> TMM: If you could include a list of the keys and what they should do, I'll work on it
[03:22] <Diziet> *snort*:
[03:22] <Diziet> root@samual9:~# find /var/lib/dpkg/info -type f | xargs md5sum | awk '{print $1}' | wc -l
[03:22] <Diziet> 4164
[03:22] <Diziet> root@samual9:~# find /var/lib/dpkg/info -type f | xargs md5sum | awk '{print $1}' | sort -u | wc -l
[03:22] <Diziet> 3630
[03:23] <mvo> Kamion: TBH no
[03:24] <TMM> mjg59, ok, I will
[03:29] <CarlK> hello Kamion - my base-config-pkgsel.log is 9004683264 bytes - is this a problem? ;)
[03:30] <Mithrandir> 9G?  That sounds slightly excessive.
[03:30] <CarlK> it would have been more, but I ran out of space
[03:30] <Lathiat> haha
[03:30] <Nafallo> lol
[03:31] <Lathiat> the obvious solution is to never log anything!
[03:31] <Lathiat> just link all your logs to /dev/null
[03:31] <CarlK> hehe
[03:39] <sabdfl> smurf: hiya. which is the best starting page for LoCo teams?
[03:40] <CarlK> it got hung up on "Warning: untrusted versions of the following...  language-pack-en-base language-pack-en" 
[03:40] <CarlK> and then 8.9 gig of Should I go ahead and install the packages anyway?
[03:40] <CarlK> To continue, enter "Yes"; to abort, enter "No": Unrecognized input.  Enter either "Yes" or "No".
[03:41] <CarlK> but before anyone freaks - I am using the CD on a local web server as my mirror
[03:41] <CarlK> so im hoping that is the cause - Ill try again using us.ubuntu.com
[03:45] <mantiena> Hi all
[03:49] <Kamion> CarlK: by way of education, base-installer is not a catch-all for installer bugs. :-)
[03:49] <Kamion> you wanted base-config, but I'll assign it elsewhere anyway
[03:50] <mantiena> Kamion, hi, I see you are ubuntu-deskop maintainer or at least uploader ;)
[03:51] <mantiena> I wanna ask why ubuntu-desktop depends on irssi-text ?
[03:51] <CarlK> I was close ;)
[03:51] <Kamion> *everyone* assigns stuff to base-installer
[03:52] <pitti> does anybody know a GUI way to change the monitor frequency?
[03:52] <Kamion> mantiena: ubuntu-desktop is maintained semi-automatically based on the seeds
[03:52] <azeem> pitti: gnome-display-properties, perhaps?
[03:52] <Kamion> irssi-text has been part of desktop forever
[03:52] <pitti> azeem: no, it only changes the resolution, and it does not even have root privs to be able to change freq
[03:52] <Kamion> under the general heading of "useful console-based tools that we install as part of the desktop"
[03:52] <azeem> pitti: ah, hmm
[03:53] <azeem> pitti: well, works here at the Uni (where I'm not root), but this is sarge, not breezy
[03:54] <mantiena> Kamion,  so, you think, that ubuntu-desktop should depend on irssi-text and I should'nt fill a bugreport about this ?
[03:55] <Kamion> mantiena: I think the current dependency is correct, yes
[03:55] <infinity> irssi-text could probably move to "ship" without anyone complaining.  Somehow I doubt that irssi users are the sorts who mind installing extra packages after an install.
[03:55] <Kamion> if you don't like the desktop set, you can remove ubuntu-desktop
[03:55] <infinity> But ubuntu-desktop depends on a lot of stuff you don't need, just stuff you "may want"... That's what it's for.
[03:56] <mantiena> : ftp://ws314.juntadeandalucia.es/guadalinex2005/archives/peez2/
[03:56] <mantiena> sorry
[03:56] <pitti> azeem: I just saw that xorg.conf limited it to 60 Hz. I'll spank daniels when he returns :-)
[03:56] <mantiena> pitti, daniel thinks, that 60 Hz is ok :-P
[03:56] <infinity> pitti : What platform?
[03:57] <infinity> pitti : If it's amd64, that's kinda a known issue.
[03:57] <pitti> infinity: no, i386
[03:57] <Nafallo> I have 59Hz on my amd64 :-)
[03:57] <infinity> Oh.  A laptop?
[03:57] <mantiena> Kamion, Btw, did you noticed that ubuntu-desktop also depends on *very big* Korean, Japanese and Chinese font packages ? this is also ok ?
[03:57] <Lathiat> my laptops dont care. :)
[03:57] <mjg59> /tmp/zd1211/src/modules-2.6.12/zddevlist.h:7:2: #error "Error in source file, line 35"
[03:57] <pitti> infinity: no, an ordinary desktop
[03:58] <Nafallo> Lathiat: but that gnome-thingie still have it as an option, no? ;-)
[03:58] <infinity> pitti : Hrm.  Sucks to be you, then. :)  Bug filing time.
[03:58] <TMM> mjg59, see malone bugs #3363 and #3362 :)
[03:59] <Kamion> mantiena: I'm pretty familiar with the set of packages in desktop, yes. We install those fonts because they make CJK web pages look reasonably decent by default.
[03:59] <pitti> infinity: it's not *my* PC :-) I'm just adminstrating a friend's one, who installed Ubuntu the first time and has various hassles
[03:59] <pitti> infinity: my shiny TFT doesn't care about the freq :-)
[03:59] <infinity> pitti : Yeah, I know. :)
[04:00] <infinity> Anyhow, it's odd for it to be limited to 60Hz out of the box.
[04:00] <infinity> Unless we really couldn't get any useful info from the monitor at all on install, then it would have been set to a "safe" refresh rate to avoid exploding CRTs.
[04:01] <Mithrandir> infinity: CRTs stopped exploding some time ago
[04:02] <maswan> I think that it is a safe assumption that any exploding CRTs have exploded or otherwise expired by now.
[04:02] <pitti> infinity: I'm afraid that was the reason - there are probably no DPMS information
[04:02] <pitti> s/are/is/
[04:03] <infinity> Mithrandir : Yes, around the same time they started providing DPMS.
[04:03] <maswan> What is even more annoying is overriding it when DPMS gives lies.
[04:03] <TMM> maswan, I still use a crt monitor that might explode :)
[04:03] <TMM> maswan, very old very large (Very pretty) 21" sgi monitor :)
[04:04] <Mithrandir> infinity: nah, I have a monitor from 1987 which I'm fairly sure doesn't do evms, but it doesn't explode when you throw > 1024x768 at it either.
[04:04] <maswan> TMM: I have a few old monitors too. They won't explode, or they would have by now. :)
[04:04] <infinity> Mithrandir : I had one from 1989 that, while it didn't EXPLODE, per se, would whine and threaten to do so when you would overdrive it.
[04:04] <pef> where are ftbs on wiki ? I can't find them using search function
[04:05] <infinity> Mithrandir : The point being that any monitor that doesn't shut off the tube (or otherwise refuse to do what you're asking) when overdriven should never be overdriven.
[04:05] <Mithrandir> infinity: yes, I know that.
[04:05] <dholbach> pef: i trashed the pages, since i thought it might be more exciting after the sync :)
[04:05] <infinity> Mithrandir : And it wasn't until 5 years ago or so that I finally bought a monitor that would do the nice "out of range" blinking thing when tried to overdrive it.
[04:06] <infinity> Anyhow, I still say it's a better safe than sorry thing.
[04:07] <infinity> And because X just uses the "best refresh rate it can manage" on invocation, you have to artificially limit it, if you want to be safe, which means the RandR applet won't work.
[04:07] <pef> dholbach: oh, it's because malone #3360 is fixed (also a FTBS) by using debian's version
[04:07] <infinity> Until we fix that (allowing you to have a lower default refresh rate, but later switch to a higher one), the status quo, suck though it is, remains.
[04:08] <dholbach> pef: cool
[04:08] <pef> dholbach: so I wanted to mention this on ftbs page :)
[04:08] <dholbach> yeah
[04:10] <pef> dholbach: debian's version builds fine. Should I ask for a sync from Debian, or wait the big sync ?
[04:10] <pef> (package is currently empty)
[04:10] <dholbach> pef: the archive is not open yet, so you can't ask for a sync now
[04:11] <pef> dholbach: when dapper will be opened, sync are done case by case ?
[04:17] <Kamion> pef: not established yet
[04:23] <trulux> heya folks
[04:27] <bddebian> Hello trulux
[04:27] <trulux> hi bddebian , how's it going?
[04:28] <bddebian> Fair to midland thanks.  You?
[04:31] <jdub> Keybuk: what do you think about html output for bzrk? :)
[04:31] <Keybuk> has already been discussed
[04:31] <Keybuk> the tricky bit would be making a table that still kept the graph aligned with the revision data
[04:37] <jbailey> Keybuk: Use SVG
[04:38] <jbailey> Keybuk: If you output the data as a series of blocks that renders flat, I think you can use SVG for all the lines and then position them.
[04:38] <jbailey> Keybuk: I suspect you can make it look elegant in text mode and in a graphical browser.
[04:39] <carstenh> ... and make all people use a svg-plugin in their browsers?
[04:39] <jbailey> carstenh: IIRC, Firefox supports it natively.
[04:39] <Keybuk> but the problem is what if they increase their font size
[04:39] <Keybuk> double the font size, and none of the text rows match anymore
[04:39] <carstenh> jbailey: that would solve that problem :)
[04:39] <Keybuk> it's currently rendered using Cairo, so output formats aren't the problem -- we can output in png, svg, etc. with just one line of code
[04:39] <koke> Keybuk: even with font-size: monospace ??
[04:40] <koke> font-family, sorry
[04:40] <Keybuk> koke: it's the height that's the issue
[04:40] <Keybuk>  o |  fix some bug  Keybuk
[04:40] <Keybuk>  |\o  some other bug  Martin
[04:40] <Keybuk> type thing
[04:40] <Keybuk> if you double the font size, there will be a gap between the two row images
[04:40] <koke> hmm, I see
[04:40] <Keybuk> or if you just render one big long image, the lines of text won't match the graph
[04:41] <Keybuk> (in the GUI it actually gets the font size that's being used, and scales the graph appropriately -- so the larger the font, the thicker the lines and bigger the circles)
[04:41] <koke> Keybuk: you can make the lines/dots backgrounds instead of images, and make it some bigger than the cell
[04:41] <koke> if the angle is 45 it may work
[04:41] <Keybuk> koke: it has diagonal lines :p
[04:42] <Keybuk> it tube-maps them all to 45, but they still wouldn't line up, as you have to decrease the angle as you increase the distance
[04:44] <koke> if you counld just make the width adjust to height...
[04:44] <koke> it must be possible :)
[04:45] <Keybuk> you could probably get the font size with javascript
[04:45] <Keybuk> and rewrite the urls to get the images to include the height of the font
[04:45] <Keybuk> and then have a cgi render them at the right heights
[04:48] <sabdfl> smurf: ping
[04:49] <smurf> sabdfl: 
[04:49] <sabdfl> errr... squiggle!
[04:49] <sabdfl> smurf: what's the best "home page" for loco activity and info?
[04:51] <smurf> sabdfl: Depends on whom you talk to. I usually just point people to LoCoTeams; if that's not what they want, the first three paragraphs have a couple of more specific links in them.
[04:54] <smurf> sivang: do you have anything specific in mind, besides group management (which it already has ;-) ?
[04:55] <sivang> smurf: Something on front page of "LOcoTeam" bussiness showing current activity other then translations, place to put instructions per loco team for it's standards and current goals , acutally this seem to overlap alot with other stuff it already has.
[04:56] <sabdfl> smurf: ok, cool. I'm putting a bit about loco teams on the main project governance page, because i think they are very important
[04:56] <smurf> sabdfl: yes, that makes sense
[04:57] <sivang> smurf: I'll try to get more specific and may be put up a spec suggestion
[04:57] <smurf> sivang: please do
[04:58] <koke> Keybuk: http://www.amedias.org/~koke/diagtable/test.html <-- something like this
[04:59] <koke> although it needssome polishing :)
[04:59] <maswan> Kamion: http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/breezy/release/
[04:59] <\sh> time to go home and have something like an aspirin
[04:59] <Keybuk> koke: the lines don't go the same way as bzrk though
[04:59] <\sh> bbl
[04:59] <Keybuk> koke: the diagonals go from the centre point of a row, to the centre point of another
[04:59] <Keybuk> they don't stop half way
[04:59] <maswan> or anyone else that might be interested in linking people to a mirror for the dvds
[05:00] <Keybuk> try carrying that right-heading diagonal on until it reaches the middle of the next line
[05:00] <Kamion> maswan: cool - can you add that to wiki.ubuntu.com/Archive?
[05:06] <Diziet> kamion: Did you fancy testing my magicmirror packaging or should I post to ubuntu-devel ?  For the moment the package is at ftp.chiark.greenend.org.uk:/users/ian/magicmirror/
[05:09] <maswan> Kamion: sure. would you prefer the ftp.acc or se.archive name?
[05:09] <Diziet> -anarres:mozilla-firefox-1.4.99+1.5beta2.dfsg> find -name '*.rej' | wc -l
[05:09] <Diziet> 118
[05:11] <pitti> cool - it looks as if in Dapper, we can share alsa devices amongst several users at the same time
[05:12] <sabdfl> pitti: nice
[05:12] <sabdfl> could be confusing with a 4-way computer though :-)
[05:13] <pitti> in Breezy, we made this work with esound too, but since I want to drop esound, we need a replacement for that feature
[05:14] <Kamion> Diziet: I'll have a look, although it'll take a little while for me to wrap my head around it :-)
[05:14] <Diziet> k: I wrote a nice simple README.Debian which tells you what to do so you don't need to understand it.
[05:15] <Diziet> The proper README is more of a reference manual in my typical style.  Everything about what the parts are and exactly how to fettle them, but not recipes.
[05:16] <Kamion> yeah, I saw README.Debian
[05:16] <Kamion> hmm, will have to do some filesystem-munging, urk
[05:16] <jdub> bah
[05:16] <jdub> anyone know how to get raw hid events from a usb device?
[05:17] <Diziet> filesystem-munging: I assume ext3 doesn't have support for heouwge directories yet.
[05:17] <Keybuk> jdub: /proc/bus/usb/devices /
[05:17] <Kamion> tune2fs -O dir_index is there, but I think there's still a hard limit
[05:17] <pitti> Diziet: what is this funny name about?
[05:17] <Keybuk> or is that not what you meant
[05:18] <Diziet> pitti: Funny name ?  heouwge = huge pronounced expansively.
[05:18] <Diziet> My magicmirror repo on davenant has about 200k files in it.
[05:18] <pitti> Diziet: ah; you have to explain that to us poor non-English-natives :-)
[05:18] <jdub> Keybuk: messages, not the devices
[05:18] <Diziet> drwxrwsr-x    2 mirror   mirror    8978928 Oct 19 09:50 /export/mirror/Repository/data-md5/
[05:19] <Keybuk> jdub: sorry, could you be a bit more detailed about what you actually want
[05:19] <Keybuk> do you want the plug events?
[05:19] <jdub> no, the hid events
[05:19] <Keybuk> do you want raw access to the device?
[05:19] <Keybuk> what kind of events?
[05:19] <jdub> as per first question :)
[05:19] <Keybuk> there's lots and lots of possible events
[05:19] <Keybuk> and you get them all from different places
[05:20] <jdub> it's a hid device, so i want the hid event stream
[05:20] <Kamion> I see that reiserfs plays some tricks with the directory i_nlink count.
[05:20] <Kamion> If you exceed 64536 links in a directory, it reverts to "1" and no longer
[05:20] <jdub> for keyboard events
[05:20] <Kamion> tracks the link count. 
[05:20] <Keybuk> right, /dev/input/eventX then
[05:20] <Kamion> that makes me feel so confident
[05:20] <Keybuk> where X matches the device
[05:20] <Keybuk> yes, but you weren't specific
[05:20] <Kamion> ah, no, the limit is on number of *subdirectories* in a single directory
[05:21] <Keybuk> you said "raw" too
[05:21] <Keybuk> which you don't want
[05:21] <Diziet> 6_4_536 ?
[05:21] <Keybuk> you want the structured, filtered ones
[05:21] <jdub> "raw hid" -> not entirely unspecific :)
[05:21] <Keybuk> jdub: no, but it was wrong :p
[05:21] <Diziet> I assume you mean `links _to_ a directory', anyway.
[05:21] <Keybuk> Kamion: isn't it the number of hardlinks in a directory that's the limit?
[05:22] <Kamion> Diziet: wasn't me, was a quote from a linux-kernel post
[05:22] <Kamion> Keybuk: yes
[05:23] <Diziet> WDYM `hardlinks in a directory' ?  DYM `files with a link count >1' ?  Because my mirror repo here has 190kfiles with a link count of 2 each, and is on reiserfs.
[05:23] <Kamion> Diziet: it's an ext2/3 limitation
[05:24] <Kamion> Diziet: http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0105.0/0164.html
[05:24] <Diziet> Ah, right.
[05:24] <Diziet> I think that message confuses (as we have been) link count of a directory and count of names (ie, links) in a directory.
[05:25] <Diziet> Only subdirs count towards a directory's link count.
[05:25] <Diziet> Luckily magicmirror doesn't make subdirs in its repo :-).
[05:25] <Kamion> right
[05:25] <Kamion> I'll try with ext3 dir_index and see how the Repository behaves
[05:26] <Diziet> Do let me know.  I should update the README ...
[05:27] <Kamion> Diziet: BTW your provided selections file doesn't seem to mirror Contents by default
[05:29] <Kamion> and the syntax reference does not appear to say what happens if you fall off the end of the configuration file without matching any inclusions/exclusions
[05:31] <Diziet> Contents> That's a mistake.
[05:32] <Diziet> Um, or is it ?  My actual mirror here has Contents for all arch's.
[05:36] <Diziet> Do you mean it left the Contents out or do you mean you second-guessed the syntax and it seemed that it would ?
[05:36] <Kamion> I'm guessing at the syntax; the mirror layout I want is somewhat different from the default so I have to write one anyway
[05:37] <Kamion> s/one/configuration files/
[05:37] <Kamion> and it will be a while before I actually get it going because due to disk space constraints I'll have to glue the parts of debmirror that do suite selection into magicmirror somehow
[05:37] <Diziet> Ah, yers.
[05:38] <Diziet> Err, do you really mean `suite' ?
[05:38] <Diziet> suite = {universe,main,multiverse,restricted} ?
[05:38] <Kamion> yes, I do
[05:38] <Kamion> no, component = {universe,main,multiverse,restricted}
[05:38] <Kamion> suite = {warty,hoary,breezy} or {sarge,etch,sid}
[05:39] <Diziet> Oh, I thought those were called `releases' :-P.
[05:39] <Diziet> It's true that it doesn't know how to do that.
[05:39] <infinity> They will be in launchpad, so you're ahead of the curve. :)
[05:39] <Kamion> katie's internals call them suites, so I'm in the habit of calling them that; it gets rid of the confusion inherent in talking about "unreleased releases"
[05:39] <Diziet> Ah, yes.
[05:39] <infinity> But in katie-speak, warty, hoary, breezy, (and the -updates and -security of each) are suites.
[05:40] <infinity> In the New World order, we get DistroReleases and (wait for it), Pockets.
[05:40] <Diziet> *boggle*
[05:40] <ogra> Pockets ?
[05:40] <Kamion> breezy-updates is a pocket of breezy, iirc
[05:41] <infinity> Pockets.  The sub-releases of each DistroRelease.  So, breezy has two pockets, -updates and -security.
[05:41] <ogra> ah
[05:41] <infinity> Pockets are, generally speaking, non-self-contained children of a larger release.  At least, I think that's how the data model sees them.
[05:41] <ogra> do we have a documentation about this public anywhere ? 
[05:41] <Diziet> The best way I can think of making the magicmirror approach do what debmirror does, is to run magicmirror once with a config file which gets only the metadata, and then have a program which turns the metadata into a pair of index files.
[05:41] <infinity> ogra : No, cause from your POV, nothing will have changed.
[05:41] <infinity> This is just about how the LP people see it and talk about it. :)
[05:42] <ogra> infinity, ah, ok :)
[05:42] <Kamion> Diziet: where should I send bug reports? the only two addresses in the source package are in debian/control and debian/changelog, and they differ :-)
[05:42] <ogra> as long as upload.u.c and -changes are there i'm fine :)
[05:42] <Diziet> kamion: Oh, ian@davenant is sensible.
[05:42] <Kamion> OK, thans
[05:43] <Kamion> thanks
[05:44] <Diziet> NP
[06:02] <mdz> morning
[06:02] <Diziet> Hello.
[06:02] <bddebian> Heya mdz
[06:03] <pitti> Hi mdz 
[06:17] <spayne> hi di hi
[06:55] <Keybuk> "I run a 100% free service to stop SPAM" ... that's nice, so, err, could you STOP SPAMMING ME YOU MOTHER FUCKINGOII"UIURIJWJOHFO"
[06:57] <bddebian> Hehe
[07:01] <mdz> Diziet: free now if you want to talk automated testing
[07:02] <Diziet> Ah, hello.  Right.
[07:03] <Diziet> So, basically, I've come to the conclusion that the biggest missing piece is a standard way to find and store the tests, and a standard interface to invoking them.
[07:04] <Diziet> The question of how to invoke them without making a mess of a real system is indeed not entirely trivial but it's a SMOP by now I think.
[07:05] <Diziet> We want obviously to be able to use upstream's tests and write our own and share them, and the flow of the tests is going to be very similar to that of the source they relate to.
[07:05] <mdz> Diziet: we should make a distinction between destructive and non-destructive tests, and plan to only run the destructive tests in a virtual environment
[07:05] <Diziet> So it seems to me that they should be attached to (in, even) the package - probably the source package, since testing is a development activity which you have source for.
[07:05] <Diziet> mdz: Right, exactly.
[07:06] <Diziet> But what we're missing is a standard way to say `these here are the destructive tests and you know how to run them' vs. `these are the destructive tests' vs. `this test needs foobar (>= 3.7) installed'.
[07:06] <mdz> you should be able to run, e.g., the upstream test suite non-destructively on a live system, but we also want the capability to test things like purging packages
[07:06] <Diziet> Absolutely.  So that's a destructive test of dpkg.
[07:06] <mdz> also of the package being purged
[07:06] <Diziet> Indeed so.
[07:07] <mdz> as I said out in that spec document I showed you, we want to do a lot of generic testing at the package level
[07:07] <Diziet> Now purging a package is a special case because every package is supposed to have the same interface.
[07:07] <mdz> as far as placing the tests, I agree that they make most sense in the source package
[07:07] <Diziet> So package purge isn't a test that has a test case file or three in the package itself; it's just a thing it's supposed to do which you can know how to try.
[07:08] <Diziet> Most tests need files.  Right, in the source.
[07:08] <Diziet> The first piece of this then I think is a spec. which describes, given the source package, how to find the tests.
[07:08] <mdz> for the interface, if we can get away with a simple exec() interface for tests, that's probably ideal because we have freedom to implement tests in any language
[07:08] <Diziet> And which ones have which properties and how to invoke them.
[07:08] <Diziet> Indeed.
[07:08] <mdz> if we can't, then python modules written to an API published by the testing framework
[07:09] <Diziet> It would be good to have a declarative way to (a) distinguish between different tests and (b) tell whether to try a test, rather than running the test and having it decide to give a `noop' pass.
[07:09] <Diziet> Then you could be able to say `well, one out of 50 tests failed, and we couldn't run 20 because we're on the wrong arch / don't have foobar / whatever'.
[07:10] <Diziet> When there's an interface specification, if it's not insane it'll be easy to glue upstream's test framework into it.
[07:11] <Diziet> So I think the first thing is to start a requirements capture for that specification, and then to write it.
[07:12] <Diziet> Now last time we talked about this you mentioned launchpad.  But I'm not sure how that fits in ?  Obviously launchpad will have a set of machinery for _running_ the tests.  Was that what you meant ?
[07:13] <mdz> I think it would help to dream up some real-world tests for things which are important to us
[07:13] <mdz> I'm especially interested in upstream self-tests being run on the live system, though it's not clear how practical that will be
[07:14] <ogra> do you guys only plan testing of the underlying architecture or are GUI tests planned too ?
[07:14] <Diziet> I don't see why that would be impractical.  How deeply you need to wade into upstream's machinery will vary.
[07:14] <Diziet> ogra: I don't see why gui tests wouldn't be feasible.
[07:15] <Diziet> Not that they're easy of course.  You've got all of the standard problems.  But I don't think we'd be ruling it out architecturally.
[07:15] <ogra> there is a team rom gnome bangalore that developed a gui testing framework
[07:15] <ogra> *from
[07:16] <Diziet> Obvious examples are: packages install and remove properly; gs works on oo-generated files; gmp and openssl pass their own selftest suites.,
[07:16] <ogra> they showed it off at guadec
[07:16] <Diziet> I think the first step though is to describe how a source package presents the tests it has available.
[07:18] <ogra> this tests were tied to libgnome iirc, it opened a file typed some text where appropriate, saved the file etc... the common actions tied to libgnome...
[07:20] <Diziet> Right.
[07:21] <Diziet> mdz: So do you agree ?  What did you mean about launchpad ?
[07:21] <mdz> Diziet: upstream tests often have a lot of assumptions about being run from the source tree
[07:22] <Diziet> Right.  That would be the bit you'd have to hit over the head.
[07:22] <mdz> one trick of the design will be to provide for both self-tests provided by the package, and generic tests which apply to all or most packages
[07:22] <Diziet> The source tree would be available, of course.  It's just that you'd have to make sure they actually ran the installed programs.
[07:23] <mdz> Diziet: well, it won't be practical to maintain significant deltas to upstream test suites, so either we'll find a way to utilize them almost unchanged, or if that isn't practical, we'll lose them
[07:23] <Diziet> Right.
[07:23] <mdz> Diziet: we need to be able to test the binaries we are actually shipping in the distribution
[07:23] <Diziet> But systematic seddery is an option :-).
[07:23] <Diziet> Indeed so.
[07:23] <mdz> i.e., test using the installed binary package
[07:23] <Diziet> Yes, that's what I mean.
[07:23] <mdz> so we can't rely on the build tree being available
[07:24] <Diziet> Err, we can rely on the _source_ tree being available.  That is, an unbuilt source will definitely be available because that's where the tests are.
[07:24] <mdz> "a" source tree, sure, but not one where the actual build has taken place. that means that auxiliary programs built for the tests, and that sort of thing, need to be handled specially
[07:24] <Diziet> It would make life easier if it were permissible for a test to require a _built_ source tree (eg, the test needs some helper utility which isn't shipped, or some such).
[07:25] <ogra> Diziet, mdz, seen that one ? http://people.redhat.com/zcerza/dogtail/index.html
[07:25] <mdz> Diziet: have another meeting right now, let's catch up later or via email
[07:25] <Diziet> OK.
[07:25] <Diziet> I was going to suggest that debian-policy would be a good place to have this discussion.
[07:27] <Diziet> ogra> No.  Looks interesting.
[07:27] <ogra> there was another gnome centric framework, but written in C
[07:27] <ogra> cant find the link currently
[08:10] <xTina> Kamion: Is there a difference between the harddrive-detection udeb in a netboot installer and the regular CD installer?
[08:34] <mdz> jdub: around?
[08:35] <mdz> I approved an -announce message but it hasn't shown up in the archives
[08:36] <mdz> trying to determine if I botched the approval or if the archive is busted
[08:36] <mdz> ah, there it is
[08:37] <mdz> it usually shows up immediately, this time it took almost 10 minutes
[08:39] <Keybuk> I still think the server version should be called 1-ubuntu
[08:40] <mdz> Keybuk: you're playing with fire
[08:40] <Loiosh> Heh
[08:40] <Keybuk> mdz: are you saying I'm crap at names?
[08:41] <mdz> Keybuk: bendy was strike one
[08:41] <Keybuk> what happens on three?
[08:42] <mdz> are you sure you want to find out?
[08:42] <mdz> I know where you live
[08:42] <Keybuk> ya know, this brings back memories of school; the teachers were convinced I misbehaved just to find out what new punishments they'd come up with
[08:43] <sivang> mdz: what was the -announce msg about?
[08:43] <sivang> (trying to see if I got it already)
[08:45] <Loiosh> Ubuntu Server?
[08:48] <mdz> sivang: as Loiosh said
[08:49] <sivang> mdz: ah, but we did already release/have a "server" iso which is a server "edition" right?
[08:51] <mdz> Kamion: any reason not to move apt-setup ahead of adduser config in d-i, since it's usually non-interactive (and can be slow, e.g. around releases)?
[08:51] <BenC> right now server is just an install option that doesn't do ubuntu-desktop, right?
[08:51] <mdz> sivang: that's what the message was announcing
[08:51] <mdz> BenC: oh, hello.
[08:51] <BenC> mdz: hey
[08:51] <mdz> there is a 'server' option on the desktop CD
[08:51] <mdz> but also a dedicated server CD now
[08:51] <BenC> mdz: I'll be sending you an email later with some things that mark and I talked about this morning
[08:51] <mdz> BenC: please do
[08:52] <mdz> BenC: have you also fixed your contact info in the wiki?
[08:52] <siretart> does anyone here intend to work on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkAuthentication for Dapper?
[08:52] <BenC> mdz: yeah, my cell phone was off by a digit, didn't realize it
[08:52] <mdz> BenC: whoever has that number has received some stern voicemail messages recently
[08:52] <BenC> lol
[08:53] <fabbione> WOWOWOW
[08:53] <fabbione> my powerbook has been upgraded for free
[08:53] <fabbione> too bad i still need to get it
[08:53] <fabbione> "Today, Apple unveiled a new Powerbook with a variety of fantastic new features.
[08:53] <fabbione> Accordingly, we are pleased to revise your recent order by substituting the original product "
[08:53] <Loiosh> Ooo =)
[08:55] <fabbione> neat :) new monitors.. new dvd burner, new battery with extended life
[08:56] <bddebian3> It's been "upgraded" with a fresh new PII 550Mhz Celeron ;-P
[08:57] <Loiosh> Perfect to run a server on!
[08:57] <fabbione> bddebian3: ahaha
[09:15] <pitti> Dear seb128: Please make my gthumb not crash every time I change to /. Love, Martin
[09:16] <sivang> LOL
[09:17] <sivang> pitti: are you loading lots of image thumgs into it ?
[09:17] <pitti> sivang: actually not, there is not a single picture in my root dir :-)
[09:17] <dholbach> pitti: will fix that with next upload, hope the backport guys will fix that for breezy, love, daniel
[09:17] <pitti> (nevermind, I know myself how to operate a debugger - just tickling)
[09:18] <pitti> Dear Daniel: Thanks for caring about stable releases. Love, Martin
[09:18] <sivang> guys, stop it, you're killing me
[09:19] <dholbach> dear martin: i tried to get it in, sorry, for having upset you. love, daniel
[09:19] <dholbach> dear martin: and now get over it, kthxbye :)
[09:20] <sivang> dear daniel and martin, how do I become such a good bug fixer like you? with love and admiration, Sivan :)
[09:20] <dholbach> sivang: read upstream changelogs ;)
[09:20] <seb128> pitti: this app is maintained by dholbach :)
[09:20] <seb128> pitti: I use f-spot for my part :)
[09:20] <pitti> seb128: shying away from good old C gnome code? :-)
[09:20] <sivang> here we go...:)
[09:21] <pitti> seb128: seriously, does f-spot rock?
[09:21] <seb128> pitti: it really rocks imho
[09:21] <pitti> seb128: I'm quite happy with gthumb, at least as long as it doesn't crash all over the place
[09:21] <pitti> but it needs this C# stuff
[09:21] <seb128> right, that's the issue
[09:21] <dholbach> pitti: gthumb 2.6.8 is really nice
[09:22] <pitti> dholbach: isn't that always the case? "Yes, the current version sucks, but in 2 months, everything will be ubercool"
[09:22] <dholbach> pitti: *bllllllllll* :-p
[09:22] <seb128> I like this date graph from f-spot, and the autorotate according to the exif datas on import
[09:22] <pitti> dholbach: (I love you too)
[09:22] <pitti> seb128: gthumb can autorotate, too
[09:23] <dholbach> pitti: i proposed an ice hockey match for ubz, last proposal was launchpad vs distro, now i'd wish you were in the other team :-ppp
[09:23] <seb128> I had some usuability griefs with it, but I've not tried for some time
[09:23] <seb128> I should try again
[09:23] <pitti> dholbach: Be assured, you don't *want* me in your team
[09:23] <seb128> dholbach: because you like pain ... ? :)
[09:23] <dholbach> hahahaa
[09:23] <dholbach> you guys are awesome :)
[09:23] <pitti> dholbach: I'm so bad at such games that I will do more for you when I play in the opposite team
[09:24] <jbailey> I'm not up for hockey.
[09:24] <jbailey> I could do curling. =)
[09:24] <pitti> ... or frisbee
[09:24] <dholbach> pitti: it's just about fun and tackling people :)
[09:24] <seb128> dholbach: we can do that with football :)
[09:24] <pitti> dholbach: tickling you mean?
[09:25] <dholbach> no, not tickling ;)
[09:25] <bddebian3> :)
[09:25] <jbailey> pitti: We're discussing UBZ. =)
[09:25] <sivang> jbailey: shouldn't we be talking technical stuff there?
[09:25] <sivang> err, s/there/then/
[09:26] <pitti> jbailey: but I don't want to "develop" my body shape, I'm quite content with the number of legs I have
[09:26] <pitti> jbailey: so hockey is not for me
[09:26] <sivang> pitti++
[09:26] <\sh> pitti: I'm with you playing volleyball ;) so I don't break other peoples bones 
[09:26] <sivang> seb128: football = soccer ?
[09:26] <jbailey> sivang: Sports are technical.
[09:26] <\sh> sivang: in europe yes
[09:26] <jbailey> Always a mix of science and art.
[09:26] <sivang> \sh: cool, in .il as well
[09:27] <pitti> jbailey: "art"? not in the .de team then... :-/
[09:27] <\sh> sivang: american football in europe is called american football or in rugby on the island ;)
[09:27] <sivang> actually it's something to live and die by in .il. People get depressed badly when they're team looses
[09:27] <\sh> -in ,)
[09:27] <sivang> anyway, this is OT so..
[09:28] <pitti> righto, let's talk again about patches, kernels, and how to beat up dholbach so that he quickly fixes gthumb (SCNR)
[09:28] <pitti> (sorry dholbach, I'll buy you an extra beer in Montreal :-) )
[09:28] <dholbach> it's alright
[09:29] <dholbach> :)
[09:29] <crimsun> cool, not vulnerable to US-CERT TA05-291A/CAN-2005-3252
[09:29] <jbailey> pitti: How many does he have to have before it becomes "extra"? =)
[09:29] <pitti> crimsun: hm, that's not yet in my db
[09:29] <pitti> jbailey: let's find out :-)
[09:30] <sivang> pitti: you also play Mao ? :-)
[09:30] <pitti> sure
[09:30] <pitti> it's a prerequisite for an Ubuntu developer
[09:30] <sivang> yeah, I know :)
[09:30] <sivang> Kinnison explained it to me on Mataro
[09:31] <pitti> sivang: we'll teach you at UBZ
[09:31] <pitti> ah, so much the better
[09:31] <sivang> however, my Mao foo has long be forgotten since Mataro
[09:31] <sivang> ^^^^^^
[09:31] <jbailey> "explained"
[09:31] <sivang> hehe
[09:31] <pitti> jbailey: "taught the hard way"
[09:31] <Kinnison> jbailey: surely by now you know me well enough to not have actually explained anything
[09:32] <sivang> jbailey: have you ever been in a Mao match with Kinnison as the dealer?
[09:32] <sivang> jbailey: hilarious
[09:32] <jbailey> Kinnison: I figured if it wasn't true, you'd pass the card on to the appropriate destination. =)
[09:32] <\sh> whatever mao is
[09:32] <pitti> \sh: you'll come to UBZ, right?
[09:32] <jbailey> sivang: I think so.  I try not to be sober enough to remember.
[09:32] <\sh> pitti: yepp..
[09:33] <pitti> \sh: you'll find out, don't worry :-)
[09:33] <\sh> pitti: I hope it's not MauMau ;)
[09:33] <sivang> muhahhahahah
[09:33] <sivang> :)
[09:33] <jbailey> \sh: Isn't that Chinese for cat?
[09:33] <\sh> jbailey: no it's a cardgame in germany :)
[09:33] <pitti> jbailey: it's a popular child's game
[09:34] <sivang> \sh: what ever happens, it's part of the game. Remember that :)
[09:34] <sivang> anyway, I need to get some food, maybe pizza
[09:34] <sivang> later mates
[09:34] <Kamion> xTina: no (there isn't actually a harddrive-detection udeb, it's provided by disk-detect - but still they're the same)
[09:34] <pitti> cu sivang
[09:34] <crimsun> jbailey: (but yes, it's Mandarin for cat)
[09:35] <Kamion> mdz: yeah, we're going to be rearranging quite a bit of that in dapper, because tzsetup and apt-setup have both been rewritten upstream to avoid that awful base-config passthrough kludge
[09:35] <pitti> crimsun: what's that vuln about? it's not yet in the CVE db
[09:35] <xTina> Kamion: Weird. I have a server machine that refuses to detect its (cpqarray) raid with a netboot installer and not with the regular install CD
[09:35] <Kamion> mdz: it may even be possible to run apt-setup before base-installer, though I'm not sure about that yet
[09:35] <\sh> crimsun: really? wow...I didn't even know, that I can pronounce cat in mandarin
[09:35] <Kamion> xTina: disk-detect itself is the same, but the order of module loading may very well be different
[09:35] <crimsun> pitti: snort 2.4.x backorifice preprocessor buffer overflow, http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/175500
[09:36] <Kamion> I view this mostly as a kernel/hotplug/udev/whatever problem
[09:36] <xTina> Kamion: The modules are fine, it's loaded and the device files are there, I can even mount them on the builtin shell.
[09:36] <Kamion> xTina: yeah, but load ordering sometimes matters
[09:36] <sivang> pitti: when I come back, I'd like to discuss some of my sepcs if you will, specifically how to move further with CupsDbusIntegration, or should we just wait to see which BOFs get priority? (Is it worth to have some sort of proof conpect program ready / whatever)
[09:36] <Kamion> it's all really nasty
[09:36] <crimsun> pitti: we could ask for http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/MIMG-6HAL5M to be modified, since we only ship 2.3.2 in universe
[09:36] <Kamion> at least, that's my first guess as to your problem - but I don't have the detailed knowledge to go much further
[09:37] <pitti> crimsun: 2.3.2 of what?
[09:37] <crimsun> pitti: snort-2.3.3
[09:37] <crimsun> err 2.3.2
[09:37] <pitti> crimsun: ah, I see
[09:37] <pitti> crimsun: CERT contacted me about this today
[09:37] <crimsun> ok
[09:37] <seb128> bzr really rocks !
[09:38] <pitti> seb128++
[09:38] <sivang> seb128: how come?
[09:38] <seb128> it's easy to use
[09:38] <seb128> it's FAST
[09:38] <sivang> ah, yes, I've heared that already :)
[09:38] <jbailey> seb128: Did you see the visualisation plugin that Scott did?
[09:39] <seb128> jbailey: a screenshot yep
[09:39] <pitti> bzrk?
[09:39] <jbailey> Yeah.
[09:39] <jbailey> It's in my nightly snapshots repo.
[09:39] <pitti> jbailey: thx for packaging it
[09:40] <Nafallo> jbailey: oh? :-)
[09:40] <jbailey> Nafallo: 
[09:40] <jbailey> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr ./
[09:41] <Nafallo> jbailey: oki, three packages updated daily from you now ;-)
[09:41] <Nafallo> thanks :-)
[09:41] <jbailey> Glad to help. =)
[09:42] <\sh> hmmm.../me should use bzr now for python-kde3
[09:42] <jbailey> \sh: I will write bzr-buildpackage sometime soonish.
[09:43] <\sh> jbailey: I need to get rid of my patch collection :( 
[09:45] <Nafallo> \sh: convince nk to switch to trac+bzr, kthxbye ;-)
[09:46] <\sh> Nafallo: hmm...
[09:46] <Nafallo> :-)
[09:46] <\sh> Nafallo: I'm preparing first some new pykde packages ,-)
[09:46] <Nafallo> :-)
[09:49] <\sh> jbailey: bzr repos can I pulish on a plain normal webserver? and pulling other branches for merging is working via http?
[09:49] <jbailey> Yup and yup
[09:50] <Nafallo> \sh: you know PQM is downloadable? :-)
[09:52] <\sh> Nafallo: PQM? oh well...all these abbrevs. My brain is not able to remember all the meanings...SDT, NIT, EMM, ECM, EIT, bla
[09:52] <pitti> mvo, jbailey: btw, does anybody already have a commit hook that sends out notification emails?
[09:52] <pitti> I have a nice and generic thing for baz, but not yet for bzr
[09:52] <jbailey> pitti: I don't think the concept makes sense.
[09:52] <jbailey> pitti: You're working on a local branch.  Who would it notify?
[09:53] <pitti> jbailey: I'm still used to pushing my changes to arch.debian.org/arch/pkg-postgresql
[09:53] <jbailey> I think it makes more sense to have a bzr watch command of some sort which a user can run.
[09:53] <jbailey> That way you can cron a set of repos to watch, and if the revno changes, notify.
[09:53] <pitti> jbailey: so that other psql devs see what I do, and I see what they do
[09:53] <Nafallo> \sh: I dunno. that's what launchpad uses for pulling in patches or something. jbailey probably knows more than me :-).
[09:54] <jbailey> pqm is a bot that makes baz/bzr behave more like a centralised system.  I don't really know more than that.
[09:54] <jbailey> All I know is that it can handle merges to a central repo./
[09:55] <Nafallo> hmm, I _thought_ you knew more than me :-)
[09:55] <Nafallo> It has reviewers :-)
[09:58] <siretart> has anyone spotted/worked on a bzr-buildpackage yet?
 \sh: I will write bzr-buildpackage sometime soonish.
[09:59] <Nafallo> :-)
[10:00] <sivang> jbailey: what will it do?
[10:20] <mdz> infinity: please try to make some sense of this tetex mess; we'll have to decide whether or not to bring tetex 3.0 into breezy I think
[10:21] <pitti> mdz: s/breezy/dapper/?
[10:21] <Kamion> I assume somebody's noted that it's in unstable already
[10:21] <pitti> yes, it closed some bugs I filed :-)
[10:23] <ajmitch> morning
[10:23] <pitti> Hi ajmitch 
[10:24] <ajmitch> mdz: would I be able to get a data-munching bug fixed in breezy-updates, since upstream has been kind enough to provide a patch?
[10:24] <ajmitch> (for a universe package)
[10:25] <doko> mdz: I think the only "mess" is the relinking problem, which shouldn't tangle us
[10:25] <mdz> doko:
[10:26] <mdz>   22     Oct 18 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18027]  New: linuxdoc-tools: [sgml2latex]  Fails to produce DVI output with teTeX-3.0, a  34 O   Oct 19 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18068]   New: package installation fails with teTeX 3.0
[10:26] <mdz>   38     Oct 19 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18072]  New: tetex-bin: fmtutil-sys fails during package package setup
[10:26] <mdz>  111     Oct 19 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18087]  New: tetex-doc: uninstallable due to file overlap with tetex-base
[10:26] <mdz>  232     Oct 19 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18111]  New: can't install tetex-bin 2.0.2-31 due to /usr/share/man/man1/texi2pdf.1.gz
[10:26] <mdz>  260     Oct 19 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18116]  New: tetex-bin: package doesn't install because of missing mfw binary
[10:26] <mdz>  337 N   Oct 19 bugzilla-daemon (0.9K) [Bug 18131]  New: tetex-base: Dummy bug: Should not migrate to testing for a while
[10:26] <mdz> doko: etc.
[10:26] <mdz> pitti: yes, s/breezy/dapper/
[10:26] <mdz> Kamion: yes, which is why we care about it at all
[10:26] <doko> well, looks like the usual -1 version hitting unstable :-)
[10:29] <jbailey> sivang: Similar to svn-buildpackage
[10:29] <pitti> night everybody
[10:29] <bddebian> Later pitt
[10:29] <bddebian> i
[10:48] <sivang> jbailey: some gismo that fetches a source from repo, prepares a tarball and then packages into a deb?
[10:50] <GNULinuxer> sivang: which source ? upstream?
[10:51] <sivang> GNULinuxer: could be , I think
[10:51] <GNULinuxer> sivang: hmm ...
[10:52] <sivang> GNULinuxer: not sure, still waiting for jbailey's response :)
[10:52] <GNULinuxer> sivang: i have seen such a script for emacs ...
[10:52] <soumyadip> sivang: you want to pull in sources from CVS/SVN, build it automatically and upload the package to a deb repo ?
[10:52] <GNULinuxer> sivang: but i guess a generic tool will be difficult. but we can write a script for one specific package
[10:53] <sivang> GNULinuxer: I think jbailey is writing something like that guys :) I actually have no expertise on that what so ever :)
[10:53] <GNULinuxer> sivang: heh, that'd be cool then !!
[10:54] <jbailey> sivang: The tarball has to be present.  It allows easy versioning of the debian/ directory
[10:54] <sivang> jbailey: eh , cool
[10:55] <soumyadip> jbailey: you mean get the tarball of the new source and automatically add debian diffs, and requisite changelogs ? 
[10:56] <jbailey> soumyadip: Well, it's everything in the debian/ directory.  I don't think svn-buildpackage has much in the way of special treatment for diffs.
[10:56] <jbailey> I might be wrong on that, though.
[10:57] <soumyadip> well I haven't played around much with svn-buildpackage myself
[11:32] <sivang> mdz: I see that the partman-auto-lvm issue was not mentioned on the ubuntu.com main site pages (not wiki) , was it fixed/workarounded some way?
[11:33] <mdz> sivang: bug#?
[11:35] <sivang> mdz: sec
[11:36] <sivang> mdz: 15017
[11:37] <sivang> mdz: ah, I see it got removed entirly
[11:37] <sivang> sorry for the noise, then
[11:44] <Robi-> who runs a soft-raid system?
[11:45] <Lathiat> i do
[11:46] <ivoks> night guys
[11:47] <Robi-> can someone explain why ones has to Initialise the superblock with mdadm aftr the hoary->breezy upgrade
[11:52] <Lathiat> Robi-: hrm no idea
[12:01] <zyga> hi