[12:10] elmo: ping === daniels [n=daniels@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seth_k|lappy [n=seth@asmallorange.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:12] Kamion: the .dsc file i'm looking at has a Source: and Binary: lines, and a Version:. It also seems to list 2 files, the orig.tgz and the diff.gz, with digests. Why does it not give the digest of the .deb too? [12:13] is there a file which has the .deb's with digests, produced by a single build of the source package? [12:13] sabdfl: The .dsc file is for the source files. The .changes file is for the .debs [12:14] The changes file also includes the digest for the .dsc. [12:18] jbailey: ok. does the .changes file include sha1's? [12:18] sabdfl: They're md5sums. [12:18] ok [12:18] hmm... ok, that's a start, anyhow [12:19] I can include my standard wishlist response about package signatures here. =) [12:19] jbailey: you betcha. we need to improve the whole structure. only question is how to transition it :-) [12:19] though it does work remarkably well [12:19] I think it depends which problems we're trying to solve first, really. [12:20] The nice part is that almost any change I can think of has been debated around enough times, so we never have to start from square 1. [12:20] we just have to pick a square? there are so many to choose from. vote for mjg59 to improve our square selection algorithms. [12:21] where can i get the copy of the .changes file for any given binary in the archive? [12:21] heh [12:21] Isn't he a biologist? I don't think square things occur in biology. =) === kiko [n=kiko@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:21] ahoy changes people [12:21] The .changes files get eaten by elmo's harem in processing. IIRC, In Debian they're kept somewhere for auditing afterwards. [12:22] jbailey, are they in katie, I wonder -- or the information? [12:22] they are at least on a -changes ML [12:23] kiko: Dunno. I looked at it when I was running the hurd-i386 buildd, and when I was writing multibuild and turtle, but that was a few years ago. =) [12:23] after katie processed them... === Loiosh wonders how HURD is going. [12:23] hello kiko [12:23] s/writing/helping write/ [12:24] hey ajmitch === GmanAFK is now known as Gman === didymo [n=ashley@CPE-61-9-197-223.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === kent [n=kent@h55d210.delphi.afb.lu.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel === henriquemaia [n=henrique@cb-217-129-168-181.netvisao.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Treenaks [n=martijn@tunnel986.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stub [n=stub@costello.z3u.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === henriquemaia [n=henrique@cb-217-129-168-181.netvisao.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel === r0bby2 [n=wakawaka@cpe-204-210-133-115.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@www.swissdisk.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === magnon [n=co@photogeeks/magnon] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Treenaks [n=martijn@tunnel986.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra [n=ogra@p5089FF29.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lamont [n=lamont@15.238.7.121] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel === schweeb_ [n=chris@209.120.232.21] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jlje [n=agp@207.67.194.249] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:00] fabbione: around? === stu1 [i=stub@sweep.bur.st] has joined #ubuntu-devel === minghua [n=minghua@danube.mems.rice.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === StoneTable [n=stone@c-24-14-85-48.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === doko_ [n=doko@dslb-084-059-067-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:31] `anthony: ping [02:33] ciao all === OddAbe19 [n=OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === camilotelles [n=Camilo@20132203203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pusakat [i=proxy@203.167.88.65] has joined #ubuntu-devel === freeflying [n=rockie@61.190.65.15] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [i=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === slomo_ [n=slomo@p5487FBE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.209.110] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jlje is now known as jlj === minghua [n=minghua@danube.mems.rice.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bddebian [n=bddebian@pcp08717033pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:15] Hello === pusakat [i=proxy@203.167.88.65] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Treenaks [n=martijn@tunnel986.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marcin_ant [n=user@www.e-dev.tele2.pl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman_ [n=Glynn@amfea-proxy-2.sun.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra [n=ogra@p5089CF04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === wickedpuppy [n=wickedpu@cm25.epsilon165.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ikuyaLoqu [n=ikuya@gnulinux.good-day.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco [n=jsg@202.57.71.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mxpxpod [n=bryan@12-207-1-46.client.mchsi.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jrbl [n=blaylock@12-202-253-114.client.insightBB.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === blueyed_ [n=daniel@pdpc/supporter/active/blueyed] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mitsuhiko [n=blackbir@80.122.201.98] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jrbl [n=blaylock@12-202-253-114.client.insightBB.com] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === ozamosi- [n=nnnnnnnn@h130n11c1o1049.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Am|NickTaken [i=travis@AC99B2EC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:19] bed time === ozamosi- is now known as ozamosi === otavio [n=otavio@unaffiliated/otavio] has joined #ubuntu-devel === phlaegel [n=phlaegel@atdot.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === segfault [i=carlos@prognus.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jordi [n=jordi@115.Red-213-96-69.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === runeh [n=rune@ti112210a080-3318.bb.online.no] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mjr [i=mjr@aulis.sange.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pusakat [i=proxy@203.167.88.65] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [i=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-devel === r0bby2 [n=wakawaka@cpe-204-210-133-115.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-57-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === julien` [i=julien@feng.planet-work.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jbrett [i=brett@free.linux.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === spacedman [n=rowlings@fyb028000002.lancs.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Robot101 [i=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === \sh_away [n=sh@server3.servereyes.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === _julien` [i=julien@feng.planet-work.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === milli [n=milli@phantom.acmeps.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === blueyed_ [n=daniel@pdpc/supporter/active/blueyed] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Robot101 [i=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Yagisan [n=jamie@60-240-10-153-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra [n=ogra@p5089D33B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Gman_ is now known as GmanAFK === Keybuk [n=scott@syndicate.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ozamosi [n=nnnnnnnn@h130n11c1o1049.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Benoni [n=liblit@ppp-70-226-135-119.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Benoni [n=liblit@ppp-70-226-135-119.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === Amaranth [i=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:20] morning === sandis [n=sandis@80.249.194.56] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-57-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-57-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:30] ARE WE THERE YET? [06:32] bella Scott === Treenaks [n=martijn@messy.foodfight.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:43] fabbione: have you heard much from anybody installing the SPARC port? gonna be messing around with it on my blade 1500 in the next few days [06:43] schweeb_: yes i did hear from several people. What do you need to know exactly? [06:44] schweeb_: i can tell you that in 99% of the cases X autoconfiguration will not work and mostlikely hang your machine at end of phase2 [06:45] schweeb_: if your box is SMP with Sparc III or > you need to run UP kernels [06:45] heard anything specifically from people on 1500s possibly? [06:45] it's a single proc IIIi, 1.5ghz, iirc [06:45] schweeb_: if you have qla2200 controller or similar you might get a problem on the 3rd reboot (patch is pending for the next kernel) [06:45] UP is fine. [06:46] schweeb_: i think David Miller installed on his SB1000 [06:46] without any problem [06:46] other than X.. that's it [06:46] and they are pretty similar hw [06:47] is there a ports mailing list or anything, or where is the proper place to discuss this, so I don't bug people (you) on dev all the time :-P [06:47] (ports mailing list that is) [06:47] schweeb_: we have #ubuntu-ports [06:47] no mailing list yet [06:47] but the traffic is still low, so there is no point in abusing infrastructure for a ML [06:47] right === `anthony [n=anthony@ekorp-203-63-137-225.eoff.ekorp.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:48] schweeb_: anyway i am pretty sure you are goot to go on that box [06:48] I'm just hyped to possibly get rid of Solaris 10 at work, heh.... my last experiences with hoary and Blade 2000 weren't that good though [06:48] schweeb_: yes i know.. hoary was crap on sparc [06:49] at least the installer works for breezy [06:49] and in theory it goes all the way to gdm :) [06:50] heh [06:50] (modulo X autoconf/hanging) [06:50] I can handle X config [06:50] exactly :) [06:50] been doing that crap for years now [06:50] schweeb_: btw.. OO2 on sparc is way way way faster than the amd64 equivalent :P [06:50] haha [06:50] and i mean a lot faster [06:51] amd64 3000+ 1G or RAM idle.. 16 secs to open oowriter [06:51] all I do with my workstation is run remote X apps, and 3270, for the most part [06:51] sparc64 433Mhz 512MB of RAM busy as buildd... oowrite 19 secs. [06:51] I just feel more comfortable in a linux environment [06:52] schweeb_: eheh i understand.. slowlaris is not exactly nice, if you don't know it in deep details [06:52] fabbione: if I weren't proxied off, I'd offer up a few workstations for distcc'ing [06:52] chrysler has me all proxied though [06:52] schweeb_: thanks :) don't worry [06:52] distcc-over-irc :) [06:53] fabbione: I have 4 1.5Ghz Blade 1500's w/ 1G RAM that sit and don't do much [06:53] schweeb_: ever played with vtun? :P === jlj [n=agp@cpe-204-210-33-233.san.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:53] schweeb_: that would be 4 really nice buildd :P [06:53] ssh tunneling of any sort doesn't work [06:54] not sure how vtun works though [06:54] schweeb_: check vtun on port 80 :) [06:54] I know when I was doing SSH tunneling over 443, they figured it out, and looked for the OpenSSH advert [06:54] ah [06:55] so they're doing some kind of app layer filtering or something now [06:55] they are not that blind than [06:55] right :-/ [06:55] schweeb_: what protocols can you contact outside? [06:55] HTTP, HTTPS, FTP [06:55] oh plenty [06:56] I'll hafta look into vtun [06:56] schweeb_: check vtun.. and see if you can make it to talk on port 20 [06:56] (ftp-data) [06:56] most of the stuff I saw that people used revolved around running SSH on alternate ports, so I kinda gave up [06:56] there is no way a proxy can really understand what kind of traffic is passing there [06:57] at least I think I can do FTP, haven't tried in a while [07:00] not much in the way of docs [07:01] fabbione: well, if I can scrounge up a blank CD somewhere, I'll have an installation report for you tomorrow === Sepheebear [n=SepheeBe@cpe-68-175-57-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:04] schweeb_: you need to do netinstall [07:04] CD installs are broken [07:04] but the netinstall can cope with proxies just fine [07:05] ugh [07:05] well if you are talking about the miniso it's fine [07:05] I couldn't get rarp working today [07:05] but you can't do pure CD installs [07:05] yea, mini.iso "net install"... CD boot, networked install [07:05] i wrote that in the announce [07:05] yup [07:05] that works just fine [07:05] good good [07:06] couldn't get rarp or bootp working... think they block broadcasts at the switches [07:06] yeah that's not an issue.. just use the miniso [07:06] k [07:06] but you can't do normal CD install because apt is crashorama with sources.list deb file:// [07:07] and we did find out a bit too late [07:07] hehe [07:07] well, I'm headed to bed [07:07] good night [07:07] got an early meeting w/ mgmt... thanks for the help [07:07] no problem! [07:07] looking forward to hear how it did go === minghua [n=minghua@ppp-70-247-41-252.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Amaranth [i=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel === terrex [n=terrex@84-122-90-162.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stub [i=stub@sweep.bur.st] has joined #ubuntu-devel === HiddenWolf [n=HiddenWo@136.39.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lbm [n=lbm@cpe.atm4-0-1301006.0x50a0824e.vgnxx6.customer.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dholbach [n=daniel@i577B085D.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:06] hellas! === lorenzod [n=lorenzod@80.87.77.58] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:06] guttentahg [08:07] nearly :) [08:07] "guten tag", but you were close :) [08:07] ah, dang [08:07] good morning, face of motu [08:08] dholbach, guten morgen is correct also, right? :) [08:08] http://www.google.com/intl/xx-klingon/ [08:08] ...why have I never seen that before? :p [08:08] HiddenWolf: yes :) [08:08] Keybuk: did you see the hacker one? [08:09] good morning daniels [08:09] dholbach, thanks, my German is rusty. :S [08:09] oh, wow [08:09] you're #1 on google for "face of motu" [08:09] WOW === Blejdfist [i=di2peji@shell.hd.chalmers.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:10] 30-odd for MOTU [08:11] haha [08:11] now we just need some more people :) [08:11] dholbach, time will get you that. :) [08:12] ouch... just read, there's a guy who called his son "google" [08:13] dholbach, that'll get him a job, and his son a life in hell. ;) [08:13] And when that kid gets older, and people ask him "Hey, Google, what's up with ?", he can shrug and reply "search me..." [08:14] That's a name that'll get him into trouble. [08:14] When he's out at night, and a police officer is asking for his name, and he says google, they'll likely bring him in for being cheeky. [08:15] There was that story about Winston Churchill's son, Winston Churchill jr, who got beaten by police because they believed he was messing with them... === marilize [n=marilize@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jane_ [n=JaneW@wbs-146-177-226.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:39] how do i set myself as default assignee for packages in bugzilla? === jsgotangco jumps ahead of scheduled bug day === freeflying [n=rockie@61.190.65.6] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:43] :) [08:44] hey jerome, how are you? === stub [i=stub@sweep.bur.st] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:45] evening all :) [08:45] still alive :-) cleaning up some training materials i got from the IOSN...colin charles was the one who did the project and used the hoary live cd to make a custom cd for the IOSN [08:45] oh wow [08:45] yeah it's blue :) [08:46] the training materials are still in fedora though [08:48] its not a bad thing (fedora) but the materials just dont fit atm [08:50] anyone got some time to kill? [08:51] Amaranth: ??? [08:51] http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte-0.8beta2.tar.gz (new version of smeg) [08:51] extract and run alacarte-0.8/src/alacarte [08:51] i need people to try to break it [08:53] fscking gmail dies right when i need an attachment from one of my mails === herzi [n=herzi@d060166.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:00] night folks === Valandil [n=chrys@dslb-084-056-096-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:02] wwooo so its now alacarte :) === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mvo [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === vuntz_ [n=vuntz@volin.imag.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pitti [n=pitti@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:27] Good morning [09:27] hellas pitti [09:27] Hi pitti [09:27] <\sh> moins === dholbach -> dogwalk [09:35] hey pitti === mvo waves to \sh [09:36] ogra: http://www.stroven.org/blog/?postid=63 [09:36] mvo: yay apt-get source -t hoary :-) [09:36] jdub: already told him, he was quite pleased :) [09:36] jdub: Hey, you found your way back to The Buttplug? :P === dholbach hopes this is an insider joke, he doesn't yet get [09:37] pitti: needs testing, but works for me(tm) :) [09:38] have you guys seen the Ubuntu-tan? [09:39] dholbach: http://olympiads.win.tue.nl/ioi95/photo/fot4.jpg === zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:39] dholbach: the national war monument, re-christened "The Buttplug" by jdub [09:40] Treenaks, errr nice [09:40] spooky, I have that almost exact picture [09:40] Keybuk: most tourists do :) [09:40] and I stayed at the same hotel as jdub [09:40] mvo: well, for apt-get source this sounds relatively easy, compared to apt-get install [09:40] jdub is stealing my past! [09:41] morning [09:41] Keybuk: oh no! next thing you know he'll start hacking on dpkg [09:41] seems Diziet is doing that these days [09:41] morning [09:42] hey mdz, isn't it in the middle of the night for you? [09:42] 0042 local time [09:42] good morning then :) [09:42] hey mdz [09:43] morning mdz :) === pvanhoof [n=pvanhoof@d5152D086.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:47] teh mdz. === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:01] jdub, yeah, its already in the topic of #edubuntu ;) [10:01] morning :) === rob__ [n=rob@dsl-202-52-55-156.qld.veridas.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === apokryphos [n=apokryph@70.85.216.98] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ANancy-151-1-44-49.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ANancy-151-1-44-49.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:11] http://www.livejournal.com/users/jwulf/7170.html [10:11] fedora guy about ubuntu ^ [10:12] they're learning [10:13] you know Alex, the FP girl? [10:13] frontpage? [10:13] Fedora Project [10:13] fedora live? not a bad idea [10:13] jsgotangco, they got money from Google to do it [10:14] Colin Charles told me about it as well a few days ago [10:14] who is in here spying on us at this very moment! [10:14] lol [10:15] Alex Maier [10:15] found her business card, heh [10:15] bumped into her at LinuxWorld, she was sniffing for how to make FUDcon and the Fedora Community in general better :P === carstenh [n=carstenh@mkfw.fh-trier.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:15] hrm, archive seems to be out of sync again [10:16] Znarl, elmo: ping [10:16] jdub: yes.. i already opened an rt request for it [10:16] ta [10:17] 2 mirrors and ports are in manual mode = desync every 30 minutes or every time there is a security/updates upload === zakame [n=zakame@210.213.77.97] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks [n=ivoks@lns01-0237.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Pazzo [n=thomas@host130-250.pool8172.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Pazzo_old [n=Pazzo@host130-250.pool8172.interbusiness.it] has left #ubuntu-devel ["bye"] === kyncani [n=kyncani@lns-bzn-35-82-250-192-111.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:30] jdub : I'll sync archive. === martink [n=martin@p54B38A74.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mojo [n=mojo@220-244-212-78.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === marilize [n=marilize@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:38] Kamion: some questions about the soon-to-be-announced server iso's [10:39] sabdfl: what did you mean with this change? : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources?action=diff === koke [n=koke@169.Red-217-127-113.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:41] ajmitch: as discussed, where we are creating the packages, we don't do that [10:41] Xorg [10:41] and others [10:41] right, in universe we tend to do that though [10:41] i'm even not convinced about the first bullet point, since cross grading is not supported [10:41] ajmitch: please don't [10:41] there's actually a problem with initramfs-tools at the moment due to that - it's been incorporated into Debian, and now is being developed on both sides with clashing version numbers [10:41] specifically that it becomes 1.2.3-0ubuntu1 [10:41] Debian initramfs-tools 0.31 != Ubuntu initramfs-tools 0.31 === pitti [n=pitti@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:42] is there any plan to fix the website certificate? [10:42] so that we don't get those problems as Kamion says [10:42] elmo told me to tell people the certs are broken because he is crap [10:42] ;-) [10:42] ah ah :) [10:42] if we do the work to get it up, debian can defer to that [10:43] they generally won't, though :-) [10:43] Kamion: on the server iso's, is smp installed by default [10:43] Kamion: the polite folks will win over, given time [10:43] sabdfl, the versioning is important in universe for packages entering debian at some point. they can be synced more easy so we lower the workload [10:43] ogra: debian can equally well sync from ubuntu [10:43] sabdfl: should be; the SMP kernels are on the CD [10:44] we should not put ourselves in the position where we plan to do the work on both sides [10:44] haven't tested though, I have no SMP systems :-) [10:44] that's not collaboration [10:44] Kamion: so, in theory, it should detect that and install the smp ones by default? [10:44] if its an smp box? [10:44] sabdfl: in theory. we're missing some changes to d-i post-breezy-UVF that improved SMP detection [10:45] so I would not like to guarantee it [10:45] ok. i'll trust in The Force and put it in the announcement. [10:45] rootskel (1.19) unstable; urgency=low [10:45] * Add boot scripts for x86 and alpha to grep dmesg for strings indicating an [10:45] SMP machine and store this info in /var/numcpus for later use by [10:45] base-installer. This avoids the info being lost when the ring buffer [10:45] overflows. [10:45] specifically that [10:46] Morning all! [10:46] Hi sivang [10:46] morning sivang, pitti [10:46] sabdfl: even if that fails, people will at least get the -686, -k7, -amd64-k8, etc. kernels, which is still an improvement [10:47] sabdfl: if we upload as 1.2.3-1, and debian does the same with a different package, we'll get changes overwritten on next debian upload [10:48] <\sh> sabdfl: so you think we should name new packages in debian as it is with new packages in debian? maj.min.rev-1? [10:48] right, including "ubuntu" in our version numbers is a defence [10:48] against autosync [10:48] if we drop it we're going to get autosyncs when we don't expect them [10:48] <\sh> grmpf... [10:49] <\sh> 10:48 < \sh> sabdfl: so you think we should name new packages in debian^Wubuntu as it is with new packages in debian? maj.min.rev-1? [10:49] \sh: patience :) [10:49] ajmitch: he was correcting himself, "debian^Wubuntu" [10:49] hmm. [10:49] aha [10:49] in future, we will be syncing from LP to LP, which gives us the ability to be smarter about this [10:50] the autosync issue shows up when we have differing dependencies for example (python 2.3 vs 2.4) === freeflying [n=rockie@61.190.65.6] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:50] even so it will be difficult to accurately merge changelogs (on the human side) if version numbers clash too often [10:50] and just highly confusing in general [10:52] with good cooperation I agree you can resolve most problems, but you do have to have active cooperation :) [10:52] <\sh> sabdfl: I don [10:52] I recently added an epoch to new rewritten tzsetup-udeb and apt-setup-udeb packages in Debian to make sure they would supersede our base-config-based hacks, for instance [10:53] <\sh> sabdfl: I don't see the point? what is the problem at all, to have something line -0ubuntu1? it gives the utnubu people the possibilty to see new packages in ubuntu and not in debian easily..and I think it's better for a good co-operation of ubuntu and debian... a plain debian version scheme will cause more confusion [10:53] hey ajmitch , pitti [10:53] <\sh> s/line/like/ === hunger [n=hunger@p54A632B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:54] \sh: part of the challenge of collaborating with debian is that the debian guys tend to assume they should not have to think or do anything different [10:54] if we continue to reinforce that, there's no incentive for them to decide they really want to collaborate [10:54] collaboration is a two way street [10:54] the big advantage is that debian grabs our packages, does the main work on them and we can easily resync and only do minor tweaks... we loose this ability [10:54] no matter how far we bend, we can't do it alone [10:54] sabdfl: but what does this have to do with version numbers? [10:55] pitti: nothing, except that our current sync system looks at them, imo [10:55] sabdfl: by not being able to tell apart the origin of a package, we make it harder for both us and Debian AFAICS [10:55] pitti: why should debian own OUR package version namespace? [10:55] and in LP, we can tell the origin of a package [10:55] sabdfl: it's not ours [10:55] because it's not our namespace [10:55] yes it is [10:55] sabdfl: Debian invented it and we adopted it [10:55] we are merging with Debian; in order to do that we MUST share the namespace [10:55] we based Ubuntu on Debian, so it is unfair to hijack Debian's namespace [10:56] were not hijacking it [10:56] the fact that we're merging means that we have to] [10:56] the issue comes when packages move between the two [10:56] so, we need to be smart when we bring debian packages into ubuntu, and they need to be smart when they do the reverse [10:56] sabdfl: you mean an Ubuntu package is adopted to Debian? [10:56] right [10:56] if we assume the responsibility of getting it right both ways, we will always be on the back foot [10:56] debian->ubuntu works well so far, I see the difficulty in the other direction [10:57] I agree that Debian need to be smart, but it's not Debian we're helping by -0ubuntu1, it's ourselves [10:57] pitti, worked fine in the past [10:57] pitti: currently debian -> ubntu depends on the version number, for autosync [10:57] so you mean we can't easily sync ubuntu packages to debian [10:57] we can discuss this more at UBZ [10:57] yes, probably better [10:57] the main thrust of what i'm getting at is not technical, it's psychological [10:57] probably I don't see the full background yet [10:57] sabdfl: i'd perfectly agree with you, if the changelog would be as clear as possible (referring to patches that are available on the net and changes are mentioned) [10:58] sabdfl, it currently depends on the -XubuntuX tag, not on the numbering [10:58] but in the most cases it's not [10:58] I think we need to consider other technical approaches, or we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot [10:58] we need to see the relationship between ubuntu and debian as one of peers, not master/servant [10:58] and they need to do so too [10:58] sabdfl: it almost seems that we need kind of a "Distribution:" field in source package .dsc files [10:58] it's called Origin:, HTH [10:58] if we continue to act in a master/servant way, it will reinforce that perception on the other side [10:58] Kamion: oh, thanks [10:58] anyhow === zyga keeps listening with great interest [10:59] we need *something* that tells apart Ubuntu and Debian versions, otherwise we'll step on each other's feet [10:59] pitti: agreed [10:59] what about -ubuntu- ? [10:59] I agree that there are maybe more elegant somethings than the version [10:59] sabdfl, i dont see a master/servant thing here, we create a package, debian grabs it, does the further work and we can resync from them ith having less work [10:59] it saves manpower [10:59] (for us) [10:59] ogra: if we are the ones always having to step out of the namespace, we are the servant [10:59] sabdfl: I agree with you philosophically, but technically your argument is bullshit :p we need that ubuntu marker so we no not to overwrite our own changes when we take from Debian [10:59] the problem is rather finding the changes, not indicating that there were changes at all, which kamion already said [10:59] kamion's point on defensiveness is exactly right [11:00] we can talk about removing it when we have an LP sync infrastructure [11:00] it *does* help us to stay out of debian's way [11:00] <\sh> well...actually it sounds like the RPM problem a couple of years ago [11:00] but that also reinforces the perception, on both sides, that we should somehow always defer [11:00] it isn't there for debian, it's there for us [11:00] \sh: yeah, and RPM is now a hideous minefield nobody trusts because they broke each others' namespaces [11:00] Keybuk: BTW: I've got a patch for your fanboy applet [11:00] maybe we can actually use Origin: for that distinction [11:00] seeing two packages with the same version, yet different changes made, is going to be very confusing [11:00] we'll figure it out [11:01] <\sh> Kamion: yes...because there was no way to tell if it's a redhat/suse/mandrake rpm...only from the inside u could see who worked out more strange code ,-) [11:01] the goal we set was to be "good at collaborating", but that does not mean "avoiding stepping on other toes" [11:01] sabdfl: sounds like an interesting BoF topic :-) [11:01] there's also the issue of dependencies [11:01] versioned ones, specifically [11:01] pitti: we spoke about this at both mataro and sydney [11:01] there's also the issue of finding a common base for merges [11:02] I realise our current system is a bit broken (1.0-2 > 1.0-1ubuntu1 but not necessarily an ancestor), but at least if you see "ubuntu" in a versioned dependency you know that it depends on an Ubuntu feature and can take account of that while merging [11:02] and the conclusion in both cases was that it is not possible to do a proper job of giving apt enough information to know exactly how to cross-grade [11:02] oh, then I probably had been in other BoFs at that time [11:02] we can't do that if we can't trust our changelog to not stamp over debian version numbering [11:02] if we lose that we will really have no clue whatsoever about what's going on [11:02] I rely on that in debconf/base-config/similar a lot [11:02] therefor, it makes no sense to give the IMPRESSION that it is doable. [11:03] I'm not particularly bothered about cross-grading personally [11:03] sabdfl: but those ubuntu markers _are_not_ there for cross-grading [11:03] keybuk's right, this does depend on our ability to know automatically the pedigree of a package, and be smart [11:03] Keybuk: they were initially [11:03] no, they weren't [11:03] yes they were [11:03] they were also there so we knew where to merge from [11:03] sabdfl : The only way to cross-grade halfway reliably is with a pin-priority > 1000, which will force downgrades to the "right" packages. I'm not sure changing how we version things will fix that. [11:03] no, thats just how you started to use them :-) === \sh looks at his glas sphere....and is seeing libx11-dev (>= 7.0.1@ubuntu) or (>= 7.0.0@debian) where ubuntu/debian is coming from an "Origin/Distribution" field in control ,) [11:04] \sh: that's a good point [11:04] \sh: that's the point. we can't reliably provide enough information for the package management system to understand two distros [11:04] letting developers know what's going on on either side is far more important than cross-grading or anything to do with apt IMO [11:04] LET ALONE debian + ubuntu + guadalinex [11:04] infinity: which is what I did to do sid->breezy, and that was rocky enough === dholbach_ [n=daniel@i577B0EAC.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:04] and there are those who will try to make that work :-) [11:05] without feature dependencies we don't have a better option there currently [11:05] Kamion: right, but there must be a better way to do that than trying to bung this info in the version number [11:05] we had this conversation in mataro [11:05] look at the rpath mess [11:05] branched version number hell [11:05] it requires more organisation and clarity in the packaging on both sides, i don't think we can solve that technically [11:05] sabdfl: definitely in the future, but it's *not there yet* so abandoning our current system before it's there is scary [11:05] ok, agreed [11:05] Kamion: ^ [11:05] good [11:06] I really like feature dependencies and I wish we had them about once a week [11:06] Keybuk: ^ [11:06] Kamion: elmo thinks they're total crack :p [11:06] <\sh> sabdfl: please change the wiki page to something like "Packages not in debian yet should end with revision -0ubuntu1 (TBDiscussed)" ,-) [11:06] Kamion: but it seems that this requires far more discipline and awareness from package maintainers than the current system [11:06] pitti: that's true [11:07] of course package maintainers for whom it doesn't matter don't have to use them [11:07] Kamion: e. g. for libraries we can generate versioned deps with shlibs, we can hardly do that with features [11:07] it would rock, but I'm not sure whether it scales robustly to 10.000 packages [11:07] I don't think it would be needed in 10,000 packages [11:07] \sh: please go ahead and make that change [11:07] no, of course not [11:08] stuff like debconf and cdebconf is where it really wins - at the moment we're trying to transition to cdebconf yet nobody knows what features in debconf people are really relying on that aren't in cdebconf yet [11:08] well, it certainly shouldn't replace shlibs anyway [11:08] <\sh> sabdfl: do u have something like a bof to link to? so we know about what we're talking :) [11:08] \sh: please add a spec "PackageVersionConflicts", register in LP and add to UBZ agenda [11:08] Kamion: does the server iso avoid usplash? [11:09] there's a UBZ agenda now? [11:09] and people are doing debconf (>= version-where-some-feature-was-added) | debconf-2.0 without any guarantee that the debconf-2.0 provider includes that feature [11:09] $ cat data/breezy/preseed/ubuntu-server/ubuntu-server.seed [11:09] # Don't install usplash. [11:09] d-i base-installer/kernel/linux/extra-packages-2.6 string [11:09] Keybuk: https://launchpad.net/sprints/ubz [11:09] sabdfl: yep :) [11:09] Kamion: good man [11:09] sabdfl: cute, that's working now ... it gave me System Error when I played on localhost :p [11:09] (likewise the server mode in our normal images) [11:09] sabdfl: server iso's are the rock.. Kamion did really really really good there :) === sabdfl can picture the horrified look on an elmo-clone's face when confronted with a usplash... [11:10] heh [11:10] sabdfl: elmo would just compile his own kernel and disable initramfs support [11:10] s/would/does/ :p [11:10]