/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/10/24/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarksUbuntuBook03:35
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jsgotangcohey all04:16
ajmitchhi jsgotangco 04:16
jsgotangcoforking?04:25
jsgotangcosean on crack04:25
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jsgotangcohello rob^lt 08:12
rob^lthi jsgotangco 08:12
rob^ltintresting day on the mailing list :)08:13
jsgotangcooh you always need a sean to stir up the natives heh08:14
rob^ltheh yeah08:15
jsgotangcojonathan has a valid point though, he's the only guy who was left during breezy 08:16
jsgotangcoso i promised jonathan i would install kubuntu after release and do it again08:16
rob^ltkubuntu wise yeah08:17
rob^ltwell, it will be an intresting meeting, hopefully sean will be there :)08:17
jsgotangcoim inrested to hear out on the other people as well who expressed great interest in reviving traffic08:18
rob^ltyes me too08:18
jsgotangcoaltough its not really a documentation thing, it was interesting to know that the idea sprang up as a doc issue08:18
rob^ltwell if its going to happen again most likely it will be by us08:19
jsgotangcowe'll see, when people have nothing to write, things like this happen :-)08:20
rob^ltheh08:21
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Madpilothmmm... why do Stephan Hermann's blog posts always seem to re-appear on planet.u.c days after they first appeared?09:02
jsgotangcooh jdub says its on \sh's rss not on planet itself09:04
robitaillemaybe he is playing with the setup of his blog server.  just complain to him when he gets up; should be soon :)09:04
Madpilotit's especially noticable because he usually does a bunch of posts at once, then the whole chunk reappears again...09:05
jsgotangcoKeybuk's blog entries are few and far in between but they sure are nice09:05
Madpilotheh... Corey mentioned my Scribus stuff in his blog... lucky me ;)09:06
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rob^ltit seems everyone but me has a blog these days09:07
rob^ltI used to have one but got sick of the spam bots09:07
robitaillejust catching up on my blogs reading;  it's nice to see that Mako keeps himself very busy these days with these talks on short notice; I wish I was closer to Boston...09:07
jsgotangcoyou don't have to force youself on getting one :)09:07
rob^ltheh yeah09:08
rob^ltI kind of figured it was a bad idea for me anyway09:08
jsgotangcobut the blog tools now have some authentication for blog spammers09:10
rob^lthehe theres a new chicken toy that makes choking noises when you strangle it around the neck09:10
=== robitaille only got a couple of spam comment in his blog in the last few months
jsgotangcoyeah09:11
jsgotangcosometimes the spam is funny09:11
jsgotangco"what a wonderful and insightful blog"09:11
rob^ltI kept getting texas holdem poker bots09:11
jsgotangcorob^lt, what's your take on sean's suggestion09:13
rob^ltwell I can see the benifits in what he is saying09:14
rob^ltubuntu docs sometimes overshadow kubuntu docs09:14
rob^lthmm my spelling sucks tonight09:14
jsgotangcoi don't like working in different svns 09:15
=== jsgotangco already has 4 svn at the moment
rob^ltyes, I don't think that is a good idea though09:15
rob^lthence my suggestion of a new svn layout09:16
jsgotangcoa branch would probably be acceptable09:16
rob^ltwe could have /ubuntu and /kubuntu directories09:16
rob^ltand share common things like licences in /common09:17
jsgotangcoyeah09:17
=== jsgotangco needs to get trunk soon
rob^lthaving more then one svn is a stupid idea09:17
jsgotangcowell i think sean is concerned on granting svn rights09:18
rob^ltjsgotangco, yeah but be careful its about a 200mb download due to all the upstream stuff thats in there09:18
rob^lt(or in other words unorganised crap)09:18
jsgotangcoif the svn is elsewhere, he can easily add people on it09:18
rob^ltmaybe, but why should he have control of it?09:19
jsgotangcoyeah i was waiting for a jbailey cleanup but we'll know that this friday09:19
jsgotangcooh he's pretty good at it actually he's more than capable to handle a team really09:19
rob^ltalthough its hard to get new accounts with commit access, its probably a good thing as far as security and general wellbeing of svn is concerned09:20
jsgotangcoyes09:20
rob^ltpeople can just send patches to the list, I think its a minor issue at the moment09:21
jsgotangcothe current svn is also pretty much limiting to him...09:21
jsgotangcovendor drops, etc.09:21
rob^ltI don't seem to have a problem with it, and I have used it more then him in the last few months at least09:22
jsgotangcoyes09:22
jsgotangcowe don't really use more than 15% of what svn can do 09:22
jsgotangcoheh09:22
jsgotangcoour needs are simple and our focus should be content :)09:23
rob^ltyep09:23
jsgotangcotechnology and infrastructure are easy to discuss when we have content :)09:23
jsgotangcoi think we have a good base with the starter guide :)09:24
rob^ltanother reason why simply changing our directory structure is a better idea, nice and simple09:24
rob^ltyeah :)09:24
rob^ltdespite a few bugs everyone I talk to loves it09:25
jsgotangcoyeah09:25
rob^ltit will go off when we unleash help.ubuntu.com09:25
rob^ltthen people on IRC/wiki/forums can link to it09:25
rob^ltoh, I remember there being a pretty good userguide on the xfce website, I was thinking about asking to use it as a base for xubuntu docs09:27
jsgotangcohave you seen the freebsd handbook09:27
jsgotangconow thats a very good book09:27
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rob^ltI've read a little of it09:27
rob^ltI almost put freebsd on this laptop09:28
jsgotangcoheh09:28
jsgotangcook so i see myself doing kubuntu, improve the styleguide, an upstream doc and finish up on edubuntu09:29
jsgotangconot bad09:29
jsgotangcoheh09:29
rob^ltkeeping yourself busy :)09:30
jsgotangcooh the upstream doc is almost done, lots of time :)09:31
rob^ltwell I plan on improving the ubuntu faq guide, doing the kubuntu faq guide depending on what happens there and also starting work on a xubuntu doc, maybe the userguide I mentioned before09:31
jsgotangcokubuntu has this nice app called katapult09:31
jsgotangcoyou do an alt + space and a translucent box appears and you can type the app you want09:32
jsgotangcohave you checked the gnome user guide?09:32
rob^ltlike a terminal?09:32
jsgotangcono its not a terminal09:32
rob^ltyeah, ubuntu has a panel applet that does that09:32
rob^ltor I should say gnome09:32
jsgotangcoyeah but katapult is uber cool :)09:33
rob^ltheh09:34
Madpilotanyone want to have a look at the THREE php5 install pages we've got cluttering up the wiki? (given that php5 is now installable via repo in Breezy...)09:35
rob^ltgnome user guide? yeah I've thought about it09:36
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rob^lthmm, this could be bad: the faqguide on help.u.c doesn't have the licences attached09:54
rob^ltdue to using xinclude09:54
rob^ltdoes anyone know if its using branch or trunk?09:55
Burgundaviabloody hell10:02
jsgotangcoyes hell awaits10:03
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rob^yep10:03
Burgundaviamy bike just got stolen10:03
rob^that sucks10:04
rob^go run them over in your car :)10:04
Burgundaviadon't have one10:04
Burgundaviathe worst part is that it was off my friends porch10:04
jsgotangcosucks10:04
jsgotangcowho's steal a bike?10:05
Burgundaviait was a half decent one10:05
robitaillevictoria, city of bike crime. my wife lost a bike when it got stolen inside our house (it was inside the entrance lobby, and the door wasn't locked...).10:06
jsgotangcoi live in the carjacking capital of the philippines10:06
MadpilotBurgundavia: you lost your bike?10:07
BurgundaviaMadpilot, yep10:07
Madpilotcrap10:07
MadpilotBurgundavia: you reported it? (not that that'll do much good, but...)10:07
BurgundaviaI just got home, discovered it stolen less than 1/2 hour ago10:08
Madpilotthe cops are up all night too10:08
Burgundaviaya, I will call in a sec10:08
Madpilotdid you loose your lights and stuff as well?10:09
Burgundaviayes, that is crappy part10:09
Madpilotthat expensive headlight?10:09
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Burgundaviabecause I was at John&Lindas, I didn't remove it10:09
Burgundaviayep, the expensive one10:09
MadpilotBurgundavia: well, at least you're employed now...10:10
Burgundaviathat is no consolation10:10
Madpilotit means having income to replace the bike with, at least10:11
Burgundaviayes10:13
Burgundaviabut having it stolen is a major downer10:13
Madpilotyeah, that sucks10:13
BurgundaviaI am going to call bike stores tomorrow10:13
BurgundaviaI might get lucky10:14
MadpilotI've been lucky, being downtown a lot, I've only lost a few lights and stuff10:14
rob^does yours or your friends insurance cover it?10:14
Burgundaviarob^, there deductable is likely more than the bike is worth10:14
Burgundavias/there/their10:14
rob^ouch10:14
Burgundaviawell, replacement cost is about $700. Light system is about $10010:15
Burgundaviadeductable is likely $50010:15
rob^not that it helps, but I saw this kind on a pimped out bicycle today, it had fire painted on it and everything10:15
Madpilotone minor consolation: end-of-model-year bike sales are probably starting soonish...10:15
rob^s/kind/kid10:15
BurgundaviaMadpilot, yes10:16
Madpilotincredibly strange bike link: http://dclxvi.org/chunk/index.html10:17
rob^whatda?10:17
rob^people are weard10:18
rob^s/weard/weird10:18
Madpilotthose people are insane, which is different to weird... :)10:18
jsgotangcolol10:19
jsgotangcothis is like a rock band10:19
jsgotangcoheheh10:19
jsgotangcosee even spidey bikes10:19
rob^any ideas on how to get help.u.c links from http://help.ubuntu.com/faqguide/C/ch03s02.html#jre to help.ubuntu.com/faqguide/jre ?10:20
Madpilotmy favourites, because they look so unridable: http://dclxvi.org/chunk/meet/long/index.html10:20
jsgotangcoPlopulator Son Of Chopulator.10:21
Madpilotit is impossible to read this page through without laughing out loud: http://dclxvi.org/chunk/meet/multiwheel/index.html10:24
jsgotangcoPoppa Chop.10:26
jsgotangcooh man10:26
jsgotangcoThe Gynecological Station.10:26
jsgotangco It took Vog the Smeltor several nights without sleep to craft the Dog, the juggernaut of battle wagons. 10:27
MadpilotThe Dog of War10:27
Madpilotwith metal picnic tables for wheels10:27
jsgotangcono brakes10:27
jsgotangcoheh10:27
=== Madpilot considers a trip down to Portland to drink beer with these insane people...
jsgotangcoThis ride is all about comfort and convenience. Our bi/tri-cycle technology makes worrying about how far back that wheelie can be popped nothing but a sad memory. Moreover, it also nearly eliminates the need to steer. One need only point the helm towards one's objective, pop back, and relax.10:28
BurgundaviaMadpilot, lets go next year when I go to OSCON10:28
MadpilotBurgundavia: sounds good, I'll loiter in Powell's and meet insane bike builers, and you can do geeky computer things10:29
Madpilot;)10:29
Madpilots/builers/builders10:29
Burgundaviawell, I just spoke to the cops10:39
Madpilothmm?10:39
Burgundaviagot a police file number10:39
Madpilotwell, that'll help w/ John's insurance, if they wind of filing, anyway10:40
Madpilot*wind up, that is... bleh10:41
Burgundaviaya, tomorrow morning comes the fun part, calling all the bike stores in town10:41
jsgotangcoweeee10:42
Madpilotstart with ChainChainChain - if they see it they'll call you - so will North Park, I think.10:43
Burgundaviayes10:43
Madpilotjsgotangco: the real fun part is the large number of bike stores in this city - it's popular here and we're well supplied with stores...10:44
Burgundaviathe most bicycles and most bicycle thefts per-capita in Canada10:45
Madpilotlucky us10:45
Madpilot;)10:45
Madpilotanyway, I need to get off the computer and crash out. Later, everyone.10:46
jsgotangconight10:46
Burgundavianight all, need to work tomorrow11:07
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WaterSevenUbjbailey, if you need some input on http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18050 let me know...11:29
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rob^hi mdke 11:58
rob^the licences are not showing up in the faq guide on help.u.c because of the xinclude11:59
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jbaileyWaterSevenUb: I probably will eventually.02:09
jbaileyWaterSevenUb: It's not on my immediate priority list.02:09
WaterSevenUbjbailey, ok :) It woud be great if could be solved through breezy-updates. 02:10
jbaileyYeah.  I don't know if an upload for this will be approved or not.  Probably, I guess02:10
WaterSevenUbSometimes is worse to see the translation in Brazilian than in pure English for some Portuguese people that are not familiar with Portuguese Brazilian terms... so I hope so.02:11
WaterSevenUbanyway, thx.02:12
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jsgotangcojbailey: awake?02:24
jbaileyjsgotangco: Maybe. =)02:25
jbaileyHow's it going?02:25
jsgotangconot much interesting thread on the list on the trunk structure what's your take?02:26
jbaileyHaven't caught up on it yet.02:26
jsgotangcooh02:26
jsgotangcowell its the time of the year where all of a sudden people who didn't write that much suddenly appear after a release and make suggestions so02:27
jbaileyRight.02:27
jbaileyAnd you think it's worth reading these? =)02:27
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jsgotangcosure02:28
jsgotangcowell i was expecting your reply at least since you said a while back you already have an idea how trunk be structured....02:28
Kamping_Kaiserhi ppl02:29
jbaileyjsgotangco: Yeah.02:29
jbaileyI'll dive in there a bit later today.02:29
jsgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: hi02:29
Kamping_Kaiser:)02:29
jbaileyI had some catchup stuff to do on the support side the past couple days.02:29
jsgotangcoahhh02:31
jjessemorning02:40
jjessejbailey:  its not worth reading all of it02:40
jjessei think we should make the structure changes that were suggested early in the discussion02:41
jsgotangcomorning jjesse 02:43
jsgotangcolol02:43
jsgotangcojjesse: where did kgpg go?02:43
jjessemorning jsgotangco 02:47
jjessedon't know i think there is a bug w/ it ?02:48
jjessei remember some discussion on kubuntu-devel the other day02:48
jjesseRiddell: can you confirm?02:48
Riddellkgpg is in universe where its always been02:49
Riddellkmail was compiled without gpg support which has been fixed in -updates02:49
jsgotangcohrmmmm02:50
jsgotangcoi thought kgpg was in main in hoary...02:50
jsgotangcooh well i'm beginning to like what im seeing now though...02:50
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jsgotangcohey mgalvin 03:07
mgalvinhey jsgotangco03:08
mgalvinhows it going03:08
jsgotangconot bad interesting discussion on the list and you?03:09
mgalvincan't complain, been busy with life, finally getting some of my free time back, hopefully I can start contributing again03:10
Kamping_Kaiserim not sure what i think about the split bit :| im trying to make up my mind03:11
jjessedon't want to split want to change the directory structure03:13
Kamping_Kaiseri asumed that this was for ubuntu and there was a kubuntu-doc as well, as i have seen a kubuntu and ubuntu irc chans, so i asumed it went the whole way through03:15
jsgotangcoit shouldn't be that way for docs, kubuntu writers and ubuntu writers can examine code 03:16
jsgotangcothe only reason why sean would like to fork and move to another server is that it would be easier to add more svn accounts...03:17
jsgotangcothat's the most obvious03:17
jjesselike i said in one of the emails, he seems to come out only when he wants to change everything to his way and then leaves when it doesn't go his way03:18
jsgotangcoplus the fact that our current svn is quite dated, some svn/docbook voodoo ain't possible03:18
Kamping_Kaiserok. so is the problem with the layout? or the server having support for a limited number of users?03:18
Kamping_Kaiseror other?\03:19
jsgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: the layout isn't a -problem, it can be easily structured accordingly03:19
jjesselimited access to who can create users and give access03:19
jsgotangcoanother svn won't answer that03:19
jsgotangcoa distrbuted revision system will03:20
Kamping_Kaiserright, im new to the concepts regarding how doco is done (more or less), so to me its all as good as any other bit03:21
Kamping_Kaisermy experiance with doco is 'i write it, tehy use it, get feed back, change it, forget it'03:22
jsgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: yes in my opinion infrastructure talk only hampers....03:22
jsgotangcowe've got an established system let's improve on it03:22
jjessejsgotangco: i totatlly agee03:30
jjesseagree03:30
jjesseeveryone always wants to change things drastically post release03:30
jjesseit happened post-hoary and now the discussion has started post-breezy03:30
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jgotangcobleahhh03:40
jgotangcowtf my dsl died suddenly03:40
Kamping_Kaiser:( wb03:41
jgotangcowhere was i03:42
jgotangcooh yes03:42
Kamping_Kaiser'improve on it' ;)03:42
jgotangcoright ok so...03:42
jgotangcothe structure isn't the problem03:42
jgotangcothe problem is people committing to write somethign then disappear midway03:42
jgotangcoeven if its a volunteer project at least saying "hey sorry, i can't continue, can someone continue my work, here's what i planned, good luck" sort of thing...03:43
jgotangcobut nooooo03:43
Kamping_Kaiser:( oh, those sort of issues03:44
Kamping_Kaiserhow much of the doc is in that position?03:44
jgotangcowell at the moment, the trunk is full of useless stuff03:45
jgotangcothat needs obvious cleanup03:45
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jgotangcoit got filled up because of upstream crap we have no use at the moment03:46
jgotangcoits 200MB!03:46
Kamping_Kaisersvn? yeh, i know :|03:46
Kamping_Kaiseri downloaded it twice :S03:46
jgotangcoit shouldnt be like that03:47
Kamping_Kaiseri downloaded it, then i did something so i had to get it again ( i forget the details)03:47
jgotangcodocbook is pretty simple really...03:47
Kamping_Kaiser*fears*03:47
jgotangcoi don't understand the fuss on the contributor barrier...03:48
jjesseit really is, you can follow what other people have done and then build the doc to see if it works03:48
jgotangcoOOo 2 can do docbook, let the docteam clean up just in case....03:48
jgotangcobut people who contribute in anyform is welcome03:49
Kamping_Kaiserim going to learn docbook, because i despise wysiwyg editing, but its still quite a mountain (learning docbook, then offering patches)03:49
jgotangcothe toolchains for gnome and kde are a bit different on the presentation layer, but it shouldn't be an issue really...03:50
jjesseKamping_Kaiser:  i just use kate as my editor to change the docs03:53
jjesseplus you can download the full version of the orilley guide that was written for docbook03:53
jjesseinstead of forking over money for the book03:53
Kamping_Kaiserim going to end up using vim or gedit myself (depending where i am relative to computer), but an orilley sounds like a good idea03:54
jgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: use Bluefish if youre in gnome, it has docbook functionality03:54
Kamping_Kaiserif i want to play with stuff, should i do that on my svn repo? or make a file somewhere else and do it there?03:55
jjesseKamping_Kaiser:  http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/03:56
Kamping_Kaiserthanks jjesse03:56
jjessenp03:56
jgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: well you can play around with your working copy actually...you still don't have commit access yet so you won't mess up the svn trunk...03:56
jgotangcoif it doesn't work with you, you can always revert to the lastest from the server...03:57
Kamping_Kaiserand another question (sorry, i have plenty for another time ), should i officaly join the docteam?03:57
jgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: if its interesting enough for you, sure we need all the help we can get...03:58
jgotangcosubmit a patch and stuff we'll eventually get you an svn account for sure03:59
Kamping_Kaiserim not aiming at svn, its more a 'if i have to' atm ;)03:59
jgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: feel free to participate, we're an open group..eventually when you get the feel of it and it interests you, it'll be much easier to make the decision :)04:00
Kamping_Kaiser:) it intrests me, its getting the hang of docbook+svn that will take time. but ill print out a bit of reading material+save a copy and se ehow i go04:01
jgotangcoonce we create specs for docs in a few weeks you'll have a clearer view on what you want to do...04:02
jgotangcoas for now, assume its in flux04:03
jgotangcowe have a good base doc atm so its natural to build upon it04:04
Kamping_Kaisernice, im still putting off fileing a heap of bugs on the (ubuntu)faq, because its going to flood rob :( but ill do it later i suppose04:04
jgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: sure flood bugzilla whenever possible04:04
jgotangcowe can't spot stuff by ourselves04:04
Kamping_Kaiserok. over the next few days your going to get hit by a wave from bugzilla :(04:05
jgotangcofun :)04:05
Kamping_Kaiseryeh....04:06
jgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: don't limit yourself to Ubuntu/Kubuntu docs...04:06
jgotangcoif you see errors in other documentation you see in Yelp for example, file it too04:06
jgotangcoso we can tag it to upstream just in case04:06
Kamping_Kaiserok. i thought id be a bit systematic, so i have a ton of bugs against the faq. when i do them, ill look elseware ;)04:06
Kamping_Kaiserill only be trying to offer doc for ubuntu (and maybe edubuntu) as i dont have any kubuntu paackages/machines04:07
jgotangcono problem04:08
jgotangcoi'm going to fill up with kubuntu for dapper...04:08
Kamping_Kaisercool. if i find i have time (i have to get a real job soon, so time might get scarse, ill see) i will see about what i can do there, but it would only be reading for bugs in doc, not adding more04:09
jjesseme as well04:09
jjesseKamping_Kaiser: if you find any bugs in the kubuntu docs in svn feel free to change them (typos, grammer problems, etc)04:10
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Kamping_Kaiserwhy didnt that time out and reconnect :( oh well04:26
jgotangcook good night going to sleep early04:37
Kamping_Kaisernight04:38
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Riddellwhat's the subversion URL for checking out?06:04
Riddellthe non-annonymous one06:05
jjesseyou mean this?  https://docteam.ubuntu.com06:13
jjessesvn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos06:14
Riddelljjesse: that's non anonymous?06:44
Riddellit doesn't ask for my password06:44
jjesseRiddell: i guess i don't know the difference06:45
jjessewhen i try and commit the first time it asked for my password, and then it hasn't since06:45
Riddellclever06:45
jjesseis there a .svn or something that it saves in?06:46
jjesseRiddell: your commit worked btw saw it come across the commit mailing list07:42
Riddellcool, I'll merge stuff in, sorry for the delay07:44
jjesseRiddell: no worries i'm really busy at work today so i haven't gotten a chance to do more then just chat here07:44
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mdkeevenin09:52
mdkeMadpilot, around?09:53
Madpilothi mdke09:54
mdkeah cool09:54
mdkeMadpilot, any thoughts on DraftWikiGuide?09:55
Madpilotmdke: looks pretty good - there should be a link to HelpOnEditing, though09:56
mdkewell that is linked from HelpContents09:57
mdkebut please add anything you think09:57
mdkei was hoping you would!09:57
Madpilotah, so it is. 09:57
MadpilotI'm going to add the piece of code that UserDocumentation uses to float the ToC over to the right under the Useful Tricks category, then09:58
mdkeokie dokie09:59
mdkefeel free to add guidelines09:59
mdkei'm conscious the page hasn't had enough edits yet09:59
Madpilotmdke: made a couple of edits and additions to DraftWikiGuide10:09
Madpilotone problem is that "Editing This Wiki" is currently at the very bottom of the FrontPage; I'm inclined to move it right back up near the top, to right below the UserDocumentation section10:11
Madpilotthoughts?10:11
jjessewhere did we leave this madnessa that was occuring on the mailing list in regards to kubuntu-docs?10:14
Riddelljjesse: kubuntu-docs should be merged now10:15
jjesseRiddell: thanks10:15
mdkeMadpilot, lemme look10:18
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mdkeMadpilot, i think i would disagree actually10:24
mdkehmm10:24
mdkemaybe10:24
Madpilotmdke: having "Editing This Wiki" right below "Searching This Wiki" and "Using This Wiki" made some sense to me, anyway10:25
mdkeyeah fair enough10:25
mdkethe important thing is that people can see the relevant section in UserDocumentation about how to contribute10:25
mdkeMadpilot, so do you think DraftWikiGuide is ready for general release and linking around the wiki?10:26
Madpilotmdke: pretty much, yes10:27
mdkeok i'll rename it to WikiGuide10:27
MadpilotI guess we should move it first10:28
mdkedone10:30
mdkegeez the wiki is so slow nowadays10:31
mdkefingers crossed for the hardware upgrade10:31
Madpilotediting the FrontPage now10:33
mdkecool10:35
mdke(gone)10:35
Madpilotlater, all - work...10:43
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