[12:21] <allee> If someone is bored please comment on http://www.mpe.mpg.de/~ach/kubuntu/breezy/Pkgs.php#rsibreak pkging.
[12:22] <allee> 0.0.3 will contain a decent desktop file and some other fixes I've discussed with upstream (toma on #digikam)
[12:23] <Riddell> hello RobertKnight 
[12:24] <RobertKnight> hi
[02:10] <Riddell> allee: http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/rsibreak.text
[02:10] <Riddell> nothing major
[02:12] <allee> Thx Riddell ;)   So "Thanks to Tom" ?  He own some honour.
[02:15] <Riddell> yes, it was just that abbreviations might confuse non-native english speakers
[02:17] <allee> about the 'not configred' warning I already mentioned it to Tom. I'll pester him again.
[02:18] <allee> I'll stick with 3.6.2  The 4th .x  does not affect packages and is optional according to debian-policy
[02:18] <spstarr_home> kmail: error while loading shared libraries: libkmime.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[02:18] <spstarr_home>  :(
[02:19] <allee> Rest I'll fix.  thx for the good catches!
[02:22] <spstarr_home> i have 109 mails i cant read cause kmail is borked in beta2 ;-(
[02:30] <allee> Riddell: ah, about -ubuntu in alioth.  Why not?  Ah, well s/ubuntu/kubuntu/  E.g. svn ls --recursive svn+ssh://ach-guest@svn.debian.org/svn/pkg-kde/kde-extras/ | grep ubuntu
[02:30] <allee> will find libkexif and libkipi backports (I've 3 more on disk, not commited)
[02:32] <allee> oh better: svn ls --recursive svn://svn.debian.org/svn/pkg-kde/kde-extras/ | grep ubuntu
[02:55] <Riddell> allee: I just thought you were more of a debian guy first
[03:00] <allee> Riddel: servers debian, laptop/desktop kubuntu.   But I plan to give the ubunts LTSP setup a try and server with cluster FS support a chance soon.
[03:00] <allee> Riddell: I think/feel I'm a debuntu that fights against duplicate effords in KDE pkging ;)
[03:04] <allee> Riddell: http://rafb.net/paste/results/1JMnQY47.html
[03:12] <JRe> Riddell: I have more or less fixed amarok to works with libvisual
[03:13] <JRe> Riddell: (and of course packaged libvisual
[03:13] <JRe> )
[03:25] <JRe> yippee everything fixed
[03:42] <JRe> http://jr.falleri.free.fr/files/kubuntu/amarok_libvisual1.jpg
[05:54] <spstarr> hrm, is artsd borked right now, it segfaults with beta2/beta1
[05:54] <spstarr> 1.4.91-0ubuntu1   
[06:26] <spstarr> #24 0xb7f75232 in Arts::SoundServerStartup_base::_fromString () from /usr/lib/libsoundserver_idl.so.1
[06:26] <spstarr> #2  0xb7fa08a0 in Arts::SampleStorageEntry_base::_IID () from /usr/lib/libsoundserver_idl.so.1
[06:26] <spstarr> hrm
[06:36] <spstarr> reverting to 1.4.3 works :)
[11:13] <Tm_T> 12:07 <@drac> 6.9RC1 and 7.0RC1 released, please test
[11:13] <Tm_T> :o
[11:40] <_Tonio_> morning everyone
[11:40] <_Tonio_> morning Tm_T ;)
[11:41] <Tm_T> good afternoon
[11:43] <_Tonio_> Tm_T: what time is it for you ?
[11:52] <Tm_T> 12:52
[12:01] <_Tonio_> k
[12:02] <_Tonio_> so, good afternoon, and maybe have a good lunch if it not already finished ;)
[12:05] <Riddell> Tm_T: x.org?
[12:09] <Tm_T> Riddell: yup
[12:09] <Tm_T> _Tonio_: lunch... food...
[01:44] <JRe> hello
[01:45] <JRe> \sh: I have fixed amarok to compile with libvisual
[02:01] <Lathiat> lol someone filed a debian bug on kompose
[02:01] <Lathiat> 'kompose slows down window switch'
[02:02] <Lathiat> _NO KIDDING_. :)
[02:05] <Riddell> Lathiat: :)
[02:06] <_Tonio_> Riddell: netgo with kcontrol integration would be a good replacement to knetworkconf. I tested and it works very well
[02:12] <Riddell> does it save to /etc/network/interfaces?
[02:13] <_Tonio_> didn't check.... I don't have it here
[02:14] <_Tonio_> I will tell you
[02:14] <_Tonio_> Riddell: you would like to know if defining a profile as the default one to start while booting is possible right ?
[02:14] <Riddell> well I just want to know if it works nicely with the rest of the debian network stuff
[02:15] <Riddell> that's the advantage of knetworkconf
[02:15] <Riddell> (or would be if it wasn't buggy)
[02:15] <_Tonio_> yes... I'm installing it, make a few tests and let you know
[02:24] <_Tonio_> Riddell: it works really well, but doesn't save informations in /etc/network/interfaces
[02:26] <_Tonio_> I just tested
[02:28] <JRe> \sh: http://jr.falleri.free.fr/files/kubuntu/libvisual_changes.diff
[02:28] <JRe> \sh: this is the debdiff of the libvisual enabled amarok package
[03:17] <\sh> JRe: please send me the url to sh@sourcecode.de thx...I'm a bit busy right now :( only just saw your ping
[03:18] <JRe> \sh: ok
[03:27] <JRe> Test needed: deb-src http://dinton.no-ip.org/kubuntu breezy main
[03:27] <JRe> packages amarok, libvisual and libvisual-plugins
[03:32] <spstarr_work> beta2 broke _bad_
[03:32] <spstarr_work> artsd crashes on start up, kmail is broke
[06:47] <Riddell> Setting up avahi-daemon (0.5.2-1) ...
[06:47] <Riddell> /var/lib/dpkg/info/avahi-daemon.postinst: line 29: dbus-send: command not found
[06:47] <Riddell> Lathiat: that'll be a beastie then
[06:48] <Lathiat> Riddell: yeh 
[06:48] <Lathiat> Riddell: i tried to get a sync before breezy closed
[06:48] <Lathiat> Riddell: but it wasnt done
[06:48] <Lathiat> i guess elmo was too busy
[06:48] <Riddell> ah well
[07:32] <Sime> sebas: ping
[07:38] <pef> bye !
[07:39] <Riddell> Sime: Lathiat says he wants an avahi control module in guidance :)
[07:39] <Riddell> (well, I said it really, but he's more elite than me in such things)
[07:41] <Sime> sure, (what the hell is avahi?)
[07:41] <Riddell> that's the spirit :)
[07:41] <Riddell> it's a zeroconf daemon
[07:42] <Riddell> which for security has to be off by default, so there needs to be an easy way to turn it on
[07:42] <Riddell> and configure stuff like turning on ssh
[07:42] <Riddell> ssh advertising
[07:42] <Riddell> dunno what else
[07:42] <Sime> you mean configure what the daemon advertise on the LAN.
[07:43] <Riddell> yes
[07:57] <Sime> in adept, when you have a package that can be upgraded you have an upgrade button. But what if I want to uninstall the package???
[07:57] <Riddell> you mean the upgrade button replaces the uninstall button?
[07:57] <Sime> yes
[07:57] <Sime> odd
[07:58] <Riddell> yeah, it needs some usability review
[08:00] <Sime> changing a button's label on the fly is a big no-no.
[08:00] <mornfall> right click
[08:00] <mornfall> it's all about the right click
[08:01] <mornfall> you can't possibly ever get all the actions to buttons
[08:01] <mornfall> something gotta go -- into context menu
[08:02] <Riddell> hmm, for some reason it's not intuitive to do a right click there
[08:02] <Sime> everything should be possible from the normal menus.
[08:02] <Riddell> same on the sources.list editor you have to right click to enable/disable, took me a while to find that
[08:02] <Sime> with the most important also on buttons.
[08:02] <Sime> (is there really not enough room for the most important and common actions?)
[08:02] <mornfall> normal menus however don't work -too- well -- way too disconnected from selection
[08:03] <mornfall> Sime: that would be?
[08:03] <mornfall> toolbar is about as crowded as it gets... maybe 1 more button -- and things need to be kicked out for more
[08:03] <Sime> Install, Remove, Upgrade...
[08:04] <mornfall> for expanded package view, again, one more button and it's full, i guess
[08:04] <mornfall> Sime: that's already 3 of them, about 2 being useless in 80% of situations
[08:04] <Riddell> I don't know if those should be buttons anyway, buttons I expect something to happen instantly, tickboxes or radios might be better
[08:04] <Sime> add a Package menu with the actions...
[08:05] <mornfall> Sime: yes, but that's even worse than context menu, usage-wise
[08:05] <mornfall> Sime: it can be easier to find, sure
[08:05] <Sime> errrr... normal people don't even know that context menus exist. It is all about the main menus.
[08:05] <mornfall> Sime: but it's terrible usability (select, go to menu, click action)
[08:05] <mornfall> *and* there's the problem of defining selection
[08:06] <mornfall> Sime: define normal people
[08:06] <mornfall> Sime: i guess most people who want to uninstall upgradable package -will- somehow deduce how to do it :)
[08:06] <mornfall> Sime: even now
[08:07] <mornfall> Sime: for the menu, sure i can add it... but it's not going to save much
[08:07] <Sime> people are people who don't spend more than 4 (or 10?) hours a day on computers. :)
[08:07] <Sime> and you already have selection for packages.
[08:07] <Sime> (that blue thing on the left hand side)
[08:07] <mornfall> what blue thing?
[08:07] <mornfall> selection is selection
[08:07] <mornfall> and is independent of expansion
[08:07] <mornfall> just FYI :)
[08:08] <Sime> I'm looking at a list of packages where one line is highlighted in blue. That is what I call a selection.
[08:08] <mornfall> GUI for management of thousands of items is *bound* to be complicated... the trick is to make it useful even for people who won't use more than 20% of the possibility
[08:09] <mornfall> Sime: okey, it's black here :-)
[08:09] <mornfall> Sime: and it's over whole width, not left hand side
[08:09] <mornfall> well, for expanded packages, anyway
[08:09] <mornfall> unexpanded*
[08:10] <Sime> left side was for expanded, yes.
[08:10] <mornfall> and i guess that the whole concept of selection is completely not intuitive :-))
[08:11] <mornfall> i bet nontrivial amount of users will just confine themselves to the "logical" button (that is the one showing upgrade/install/remove depending on state) and toolbar actions
[08:12] <Riddell> I still say radio buttons would be bestest
[08:13] <Sime> I agree with Riddel. If the action occurred immediately then I would go for buttons.
[08:13] <jjesse> mornfall: in the docteam subversion directory there is a kynaptic manual, any thoughts about an adept manual or is there one created elsewhere we can import into Kubuntu?
[08:13] <mornfall> i don't know of anything
[08:13] <mornfall> Riddell: bestest, uh? :)
[08:14] <jjesse> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kynaptic/C/ is the kynaptic one
[08:15] <Riddell> mornfall: I'm using the language of a 5 year old for dramatic effect.  if I'd done better in my english exams I would know which effect it was
[08:15] <mornfall> Riddell: hyperbole? ;-)
[08:16] <Riddell> yeah, something like that
[08:16] <mornfall> anyway, i don't like radiobuttons
[08:16] <mornfall> it would mean i need to make huge amount of them and disable some of them
[08:16] <mornfall> it's... evil
[08:16] <mornfall> there's -no space-
[08:17] <mornfall> also, there will be another button, and it will invariably be a button
[08:17] <mornfall> i could -maybe- settle on a combobox
[08:17] <mornfall> but it's stretching it
[08:17] <mornfall> a lot
[08:18] <Sime> replace the button with a 2x2 grid of radios
[08:18] <mornfall> never
[08:18] <Sime> is that an idea?
[08:18] <mornfall> the radios will never fit the space of that button
[08:18] <mornfall> they'll take like 3 times more
[08:19] <Sime> sure? there are only 4 actions
[08:19] <mornfall> hmm; keep, upgrade, install, remove are there now; purge and reinstall are to be added
[08:19] <mornfall> this does not scale
[08:20] <mornfall> it also adds complexity
[08:20] <mornfall> (btw, i am arguing here -- if you win the argument, i submit -- it's just not easy to win an argument with me :p)
[08:21] <mornfall> anyway, you can try to put radios there and see for yourself :-))
[08:21] <mornfall> the code isn't that hard
[08:21] <mornfall> it's in lister.{h,cpp}
[08:23] <Sime> I'll try that out right after I implement dualhead support in the X kmodule. :)
[08:23] <mornfall> :-))
[08:23] <mornfall> see, i'll do whatever i think is best for adept =)
[08:23] <mornfall> like it or not
[08:23] <mornfall> of course, distributor has the veto power -- they can change the product to whatever they like :)
[08:24] <Sime> that's a long way of saying that it could take a long time before i get to it. ;)
[08:25] <mornfall> Riddell: get me an usability review and i'll read it :-)
[08:28] <mornfall> you know, i'm such a terrible sceptic
[08:28] <mornfall> you have it hard with me :-)
[08:29] <Riddell> wow, openusability looks busy, I wonder if it's along queue
[08:29] <sebas> Sime: Pong.
[08:29] <Sime> hoi sebas
[08:29] <mornfall> long? i guess it's bigger than they can process in any sane time
[08:29] <sebas> Hi!
[08:29] <mornfall> someone has been overestimating capacity :p
[08:30] <mornfall> (that's the price for hype -- too many people want things from you and noone really helps)
[08:30] <Sime> Sebas and I are kind of waiting for some OU feedback
[08:30] <sebas> Still a good sign, much better than being ignored.
[08:30] <Sime> true
[08:31] <mornfall> i was more productive in the "being ignored" phases of everything, i guess
[08:31] <Sime> sebas: working on the dualhead stuff on Kubuntu I see that the hwdata and discover1 data file simply do not contain the hardware info that we need.
[08:32] <Sime> sebas: so I've added the Mandriva files to SVN.
[08:32] <Sime> sebas: also, what is the fate of the Power tab in displayconfig?
[08:32] <mornfall> eh, the "one true foo" problem :-))
[08:33] <sebas> Sime: Short term: move it, it's just one widget, long term: Kill it (there has to be a powermanagement control module)
[08:34] <Sime> sebas: eruit slopen
[08:34] <sebas> I forgot what I the solution I thought out with usability-Jan was, have to wait for the report...
[08:34] <sebas> Yeah, but that'd mean a regression, right?
[08:34] <Sime> sebas: HDD spindown settings would also be good for a power module
[08:39] <sebas> Sime: Yeah.
[08:39] <sebas> Such a module probably wouldn't be too hard to do.
[08:39] <sebas> Tuning these settings is pretty trivial, code-wise.
[08:41] <sebas> Is there a syntaxhighlighted diff, btw?
[08:41] <Sime> of what?
[08:41] <sebas> Would be great for reviewing patches.
[08:41] <sebas> For example svn diff producing syntax highlighted output.
[08:43] <Riddell> kubuntu.pastebin.com might do that
[08:45] <sebas> Hm, yeah. But that's not really intuitive ... 
[08:46] <mornfall> emacs
[08:47] <mornfall> (for syntax-hilighted diffs)
[08:47] <mornfall> or colordiff, but that does diff coloring, not the unterlying syntax
[08:48] <Riddell> or use kompare
[08:48] <Riddell> it has a nice kpart
[08:49] <mornfall> another possibility... it just doesn't work that great for konsole users...
[08:49] <mornfall> nothing's perfect, i guess
[08:50] <sebas> Yeah, most gui based svn tools have syntax highlighting.
[08:50] <sebas> (And I'm a vim user :-))
[08:51] <sebas> and a hungry one... brb.
[08:53] <Riddell> I'm hungry too come to think of it :)
[08:54] <sebas> Let's eat! (And colordiff accepts diff from STDIN, which is good.)
[08:56] <sebas> And it even has a manpage with cute examples!
[08:56] <sebas> function cvsdiff () { cvs diff $@ | colordiff |less -R; }
[10:48] <allee> Sime: you mentioned that would like to make keyboard setup easier.  Care to explain?  [ oI just started a thread on the xkb list, after fighting last night to get the infos for the MM keys together for submition to xkeybaord-config]