[12:04] <zyga> jdub: ping
[12:08] <sivang> good night all
[12:16] <zyga> archive.u.c has bad signatures?
[12:22] <alexr> Hi! Can anybody help me with the question about modifying breezy install CD?
[12:35] <dholbach> good night
[12:37] <mdz> sivang: please fix the summary of the splash-down spec to only discuss shutdown, not hibernation. that will be a separate spec
[12:38] <dholbach> mdz: he went to bed half an hour ago
[12:38] <ajmitch> mdz: do I just upload to breezy-updates, with right distribution & version number set in changelog?
[12:41] <mdz> ajmitch: you first mail me a debdiff for review
[12:41] <ajmitch> alright
[12:41] <ajmitch> it's nice & small
[01:05] <bob2> does soyuz support hot tiffani archive love?
[01:21] <tseng> mdz: Infinite Justice!!!
[01:23] <schweeb_> tseng: haha, I liked that part too
[02:08] <jdub> mdz: pong
[02:08] <jdub> zyga: pong
[02:08] <mdz> jdub: unping
[02:11] <tseng> yo jdub 
[02:12] <jdub> hey tseng 
[02:12] <jdub> how are you?
[02:12] <jdub> yo jcape 
[02:13] <jcape> Hey jdub
[02:13] <tseng> jdub: fine thanks
[02:13] <jcape> jdub: What's up?
[02:13] <tseng> your ironpython post seemed to be lacking in GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS
[02:13] <jdub> haha
[02:14] <jdub> my talk to the gnome/ubuntu/random-nl people tonight wasn't lacking in GMFL :)
[02:14] <tseng> elite
[02:14] <bob2> is ironpython in ubuntu yet?
[02:15] <tseng> no, but it sounds like mono compat is "almost there"
[02:15] <tseng> for now
[02:20] <TMM> jdub, you ARE still awake :)
[02:20] <tseng> jdub: why are you in .nl anyway?
[02:23] <jdub> tseng: eurooscon
[02:24] <tseng> hm oh
[02:24] <ajmitch> more of the 3B tour?
[02:24] <tseng> say hello to Edd for me, im sure that con has his name all over it
[02:24] <zyga> jdub: there is a typo in lists.u.c in the description of ubuntu-pl
[02:24] <TMM> jdub, you wheren't in .nl for us? I'm so dissapointed ;)
[02:25] <schweeb_> and tell him to make gnome-bluetooth-manager better :P
[02:25] <doko> tseng: the thing is, when mono catches up, ironpython already uses features not yet found in the current mono ...
[02:25] <tseng> doko: exactly
[02:27] <jdub> tseng: haha, only for a couple of days, but i will
[02:27] <tseng> cheers
[02:28] <tseng> doko: those features are beta in MS even afaik
[02:28] <tseng> C# 2.0 stuff
[02:29] <tseng> i guess IP is considered beta too
[02:29] <zyga> jdub: can you fix this?
[02:30] <TMM> tseng, get the code under one of those nifty new licenses MS published :) (according to /.)
[02:30] <TMM> :P
[02:30] <TMM> anyway
[02:30] <tseng> sigh, /.
[02:30] <mdz> daniels: debdiff for mesa, please
[02:32] <daniels> mdz: puc/~daniels/debdiff
[02:32] <mdz> 404
[02:32] <mdz> xkeyboard-config also
[02:32] <daniels> mesa-debdiff
[02:33] <daniels> xkc-debdiff
[02:35] <daniels> there's likely to be an xorg update if I can find another issue to solve besides the fucking radeon acceleration plague
[02:38] <jabra> who is the current sshd package maintainer?
[02:38] <tseng> ubuntu doesnt have package maintainers
[02:39] <tseng> we stand in circles holding hands and all that
[02:39] <jdub> jabra: Kamion 
[02:39] <jabra> uh, I have an idea for patch for the sshd package
[02:40] <bob2> then submit it to the bts
[02:41] <jabra> bts?
[02:41] <daniels> jabra: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[02:41] <jabra> ok thanks I will do that right now
[02:50] <jabra> done
[02:50] <jabra> bug 18153
[02:52] <crimsun> huh?
[02:52] <bob2> why do you want to hide your ssh version?
[02:52] <bob2> also, that has no patch
[02:52] <crimsun> not only that, but the bug report is useless - just use the Banner directive in /etc/ssh/sshd_config
[02:53] <jabra> crimsun: banner directive?
[02:53] <crimsun> Banner /path/to/banner/file
[02:55] <crimsun> keep in mind that changing your banner is largely futile; a determined person will simply use scanssh
[02:55] <jabra> true but shouldn't give out which linux distro your using for anyone who telnet's to 22
[02:55] <crimsun> security through obscurity? not quite.
[02:55] <tseng> why not
[02:56] <jabra> because not much information given out
[02:56] <daniels> apache also gives out the same information, and I don't think anyone's ever really cared
[02:57] <jabra> you can disable that banner 
[02:57] <daniels> and you can disable the banner in sshd too
[02:57] <jabra> k sorry for the useless bug then
[02:57] <mdz> why does yaboot have an ascii cow in it?
[03:06] <Kamion> daniels: no, you can't
[03:06] <Kamion> it's part of the protocol
[03:06] <Kamion> I've closed the bug WONTFIX though, see explanation there
[03:07] <Kamion> crimsun: Banner is different and unrelated, FWIW
[03:09] <mdz> jdub: you're on the front page of lwn
[03:10] <jabra> Kamion: thanks
[03:18] <OddAbe19> what's the new date for dapper?
[03:19] <mdz> OddAbe19: there isn't one yet
[03:20] <OddAbe19> check check
[03:52] <daniels> jbailey: PING
[03:55] <jbailey> daniels: yoyosup?
[03:56] <daniels> jbailey: can you please explain to me in words of two syllables or less why glibc is explicitly preventing me from including linux/types.h?
[03:57] <daniels> jbailey: a few headers define _LINUX_TYPES_H, so anything including <linux/agpgart.h> tanks because it includes <linux/types.h>, and  naively expects that the types that defines will actually be there
[03:57] <daniels> navely, even
[03:57] <jbailey> daniels: No good response beyond that userspace applications should generally not include anything in linux/* or asm/* anyway (per kernel maintainers)
[03:58] <jbailey> I've done a bit of hacking to make many of the headers usable.  What do you need, and I'll help you figure out the best solution.
[03:58] <daniels> jbailey: *shrug*, idealism is nice, but I kind of like it when the X server actually has agpgart support, y'know ;)
[03:59] <daniels> jbailey: i think it's just sys/kd.h that's the main culprit; if it could either a) not define _LINUX_TYPES_H, b) undef it when it's done a la sysctl.h, or c) define __u16 and __u32 when it defines _LINUX_TYPES_H, that'd be great
[03:59] <daniels> jbailey: my short-term hack was to change linux/types.h's test to _LINUX_TYPES_H_FUCK_YOU_GLIBC, but I don't think that'd fly for uploading to the archive
[03:59] <jbailey> *lol*
[04:00] <jbailey> Do you basically need linux/agpgart.h ?
[04:00] <jbailey> I can tweak that to have usable user-space types.
[04:01] <daniels> jbailey: yeah, the end goal is a usable linux/agpgart.h
[04:02] <daniels> jbailey: but tweaking sys/kd.h to have the same __undef_LINUX_TYPES_H hack as sysctl worked too, and it would seem to be correct in any case (even if agpgart should have usable userspace types, which I assume it should)
[04:02] <daniels> oh, and while I'm at it
[04:02] <daniels> hm, no keybuk.  damn.
[04:02] <daniels> (libtool is broken.  shock.)
[04:03] <jbailey> Nothing in linux/ is intended to be usable by upstream, but I'll hack that into the lkh update
[04:03] <daniels> upstream -> userspace? :)
[04:03] <jbailey> upstream like the kernel.
[04:03] <daniels> ah
[04:03] <jbailey> The kernel provides no headers that are intended to be used.
[04:03] <daniels> right
[04:03] <jbailey> I don't quite understand why.
[04:04] <daniels> don't question the wisdom
[04:04] <jbailey> But it's been said more than once, and I know better than to argue.  So I hack the headers to be usable. =)
[04:06] <daniels> heh
[04:11] <jbailey> daniels: What's your bugzlilla id?
[04:14] <daniels> jbailey: daniel.st
[04:14] <jbailey> <tab completes> thanks
[04:14] <jbailey> =)
[04:14] <jbailey> I've filed it as 18157 as a reminder, cc:'d you/
[04:14] <bddebian> Doesn't glibc provide a stddef.h now?
[04:14] <daniels> cheers :)
[04:15] <jbailey> bddebian: stddef.h comes from gcc.
[04:15] <bddebian> Ahh.. But what if an app is looking in /usr/include or /usr/X11R6/include?
[04:16] <jbailey> If an app explicitely is looking in /usr/include and isn't trusting compiler search paths, it's broken beyond repair.
[04:16] <jbailey> gcc and glibc play games with the search paths that mere mortals cannot predict.
[04:16] <bddebian> Hmm
[04:16] <jbailey> And -I/usr/include is known to break things all *over* the place.
[04:17] <ajmitch> that's comforting
[04:17] <daniels> also, /usr/X11R6/include doesn't exist anymore
[04:17] <bddebian> Why is everything a PITA? :-)
[04:17] <bddebian> daniels: I know, that's what started this all.
[04:17] <jbailey> bddebian: It's not.  It's called trust your compiler and write good code.
[04:17] <jbailey> =)
[04:17] <daniels> well, it has *two* things in it.  but they're going the hell away with the first xorg upload dapper ever sees.
[04:17] <bddebian> Its installing stuff in /usr/X11R6/bin
[04:18] <daniels> bddebian: boooo
[04:18] <daniels> bddebian: that was broken even before we went modular
[04:18] <bddebian> Aye
[04:18] <bddebian> ajmitch: Make that part of our MOTU goals: To fix packages still installing in /usr/X11R6/bin.  Apparently there are still a few :-(
[04:19] <bddebian> ;-P
[04:19] <daniels> s/\/bin//
[04:19] <daniels> putting stuff in /usr/X11R6 has always violated the FHS unless you're the X SI, IIRC
[04:19] <jbailey> Hmm.  Do you just grep the logs to find those?
[04:19] <daniels> jbailey: Contents-*.gz?
[04:19] <jbailey> daniels: No, that wouldn't tell you who was including stuff from there.
[04:19] <bddebian> Dunno.  Kyral showed me this one (mgp btw if anyone is curious)
[04:23] <marcin_ant> is there any emacs packaging guru?
[04:24] <daniels> marcin_ant: keybuk
[04:24] <daniels> jbailey: oh, inclusion, right
[04:24] <marcin_ant> ,seen keybuk
[04:24] <marcin_ant> .seen keybuk
[04:24] <marcin_ant> ehh no bot...
[04:24] <daniels> no
[04:25] <jbailey> I'm sure had a noisy bot been in here it would've been tied up and tazers a long time ago...
[04:25] <jbailey> tazered, rather.
[04:30] <bddebian> heh
[04:31] <bddebian> How do you know I'm not a bot? ;-P
[04:31] <jbailey> bddebian: Because you get offended when I make jokes about americans... ;)
[04:32] <bddebian> Heh.  I don't get offended at jokes about us, it's other things :-)
[04:37] <tritium> hi bddebian 
[04:38] <bddebian> Heya tritium 
[04:40] <marcin_ant> jbailey: be careful bddebian could be FBI/CIA/USAF/NASA/WHATEVERSTUPIDAGENCY bot that reports any joke about americans directly to pentagon with your current position (GPS info) ;)
[04:42] <jbailey> It's possible.  But I think "Another Canadian making a comment about us" isn't going to register high on their radar.
[04:42] <jbailey> Especially someone living in the French part of Canada, y'know? =)
[04:45] <marcin_ant> you don't have oil so you can sleep safely
[04:46] <tritium> oh brother
[04:46] <jbailey> Better than that, I live in a province with huge hydro-electric capability.  Most of my electricity day-to-day doesn't rely on oil. =)
[04:49] <marcin_ant> heh cheap and clean energy is really a nice thing
[04:50] <jbailey> I was reading something really cool about how they make mechanical "batteries" for dealing with peak load.
[04:50] <marcin_ant> you should also buy an electic car then you could be 100% oil independent...
[04:50] <daniels> off-topic ...
[04:50] <bddebian> Oh but think of all poor fishies you are hurting
[04:50] <jbailey> Apparently during off time, they can divert streams and such to side chanels that are dammed.
[04:50] <jbailey> Then just open up those to the turbines during peak time.
[04:51] <jbailey> daniels: Sorry, dear.
[04:51] <bddebian> heh
[04:51] <marcin_ant> jbailey: btw how much money you need to pay for 1l of fuel in Canada?
[04:52] <marcin_ant> jbailey: is it also so cheap as in US?
[04:52] <jbailey> marcin_ant: No idea, I don't own a car.
[04:52] <daniels> dpkg-deb: building package `xserver-xorg-core' in `../xserver-xorg-core_0.99.2-1_i386.deb'.
[04:52] <daniels> dpkg-deb: building package `xserver-xorg-dev' in `../xserver-xorg-dev_0.99.2-1_i386.deb'.
[04:52] <marcin_ant> daniels: off topic ;)
[05:11] <lifeless> fabbione: cm-0.2 is in the queue for sid - so packages should be available soon :0
[06:06] <infinity> mdz : I expect we'll want TeTeX 3.0 in dapper, I assume "bring it into breezy" was a thinko?
[06:11] <Amaranth> http://bcm43xx.berlios.de/ <--holy crap
[06:13] <wickedpuppy> error ..
[06:29] <fabbione> lifeless: ok
[06:29] <fabbione> morning guys
[06:33] <Lathiat> Amaranth: its not actually working yet
[06:33] <Amaranth> i know, but it looks promising
[06:33] <Amaranth> unless they spend more time on webdesign then coding
[06:33] <Lathiat> yeh
[06:33] <Lathiat> looks like someone actually documented it
[06:33] <Lathiat> http://bcm-specs.sipsolutions.net/
[06:33] <Amaranth> btw, someone wanna test a potential gnome-menus bug for me? you have to download alacarte
[06:34] <Lathiat> mmm, http://linux-bcom4301.sourceforge.net/go/progress
[06:35] <Amaranth> http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte-0.8beta2.tar.gz extract and run alacarte-0.8/src/alacarte then move Accessories under System Tools and move it back under Applications (drag and drop)
[06:54] <Amaranth> whoa, mignight. bed time
[07:11] <nayif> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17555 , who need more info on this bug ask me please ,http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16629 
[07:11] <pitti> Hi folks
[07:12] <nayif> hi pitti 
[07:12] <ajmitch> hi pitti 
[07:17] <pitti> mdz: still here?
[07:19] <pitti> mdz: nevermind
[07:24] <nayif> who work on gnome?
[07:24] <pitti> we all do more or less, but the main cracks are dholbach and seb128
[07:27] <nayif> the  arabic text appear broken and i send to bug about that and mdz askme more info about it ,what info need here 
[07:53] <jsgotangco> error logs, screenshot if possible, etc.
[08:13] <sivang> mdz: ok, will do.
[08:13] <sivang> Good morning all
[08:15] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[08:15] <sivang> pitti: Martin :)
[08:26] <milli> torkel: hey, would you happen to have a new arla deb for breezy?  0.40?  :)
[08:42] <torkel> milli: nope. We more or less have switched to openafs. When I find some time I will try topick up arla again
[09:26] <zyga> hey
[09:27] <zyga> archive.ubuntu.com still has some bad signatures
[09:27] <zyga> is that okay?
[09:28] <fabbione> zyga: yes.. just try to update a few times.. 2 of the 4 machines serving archive.u.c are out of sync
[09:29] <vuntz> hrm
[09:29] <sivang> fabbione: do you know anything about the slow throughput form archive as well?
[09:29] <vuntz> I can't send a mail to info@shipit.ubuntu.com...
[09:31] <mdz> pitti: yes?
[09:31] <mdz> infinity: see 3+ lines after for context
[09:31] <fabbione> sivang: no, i assume the servers are still overloaded by release
[09:32] <fabbione> sivang: check with a traceroute too, to see if there is a problem on the way to archive
[09:32] <pitti> mdz: nevermind, I mailed you (some u-security-announce unsub problem)
[09:32] <sivang> fabbione: k, thanks
[09:32] <jdub> Setting up bzr (0.1.1+20051020-0) ...
[09:32] <jdub> Compiling /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bzrlib/selftest/testplugins.py ...
[09:32] <sivang> zyga: where do you get the bzr packages?
[09:32] <jdub> Sorry: IndentationError: ('unindent does not match any outer indentation level', ('/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bzrlib/selftest/testplugins.py', 70, 20, ' PLUGIN_TEXT = """\\\n'))
[09:32] <jdub> dpkg: error processing bzr (--configure):
[09:32] <jdub> 
[09:32] <jdub> jbailey: ^^^
[09:33] <sivang> zyga: ah, got it. Doh
[09:33] <fabbione> sivang: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/mirror/document_view
[09:34] <fabbione> jdub, zyga: known problem already reported
[09:34] <sivang> jdub: I just installed it, seems fine here
[09:35] <zyga> sivang: jbailes archive 
[09:35] <sivang> zyga: eh :)
[09:55] <zyga> Keybuk: so
[09:55] <Keybuk> zyga: I'm not even sure I have the source to it anymore
[09:56] <zyga> hehe :)
[09:56] <zyga> I've got for sure
[09:56] <zyga> it's nice as a tiny thing to play with
[09:56] <Keybuk> feel free to publish it as you see fit
[09:56] <zyga> Keybuk: okay
[09:56] <zyga> Keybuk: do you know why proffs path is different?
[09:57] <Keybuk> different models of laptop
[09:57] <zyga> aww
[09:57] <zyga> that sucks
[09:57] <Keybuk> the THRM bit is defined by your bios
[09:57] <zyga> there is no portable way of mesuring temperature then
[09:57] <Keybuk> mine happens to define TZ1, TZ2 and TZ3
[09:57] <Keybuk> hal
[09:57] <Keybuk> that has (or should have) all the magic to get the right bits
[09:58] <jdub> so last night
[09:58] <jdub> i did my 3BT talk
[09:58] <jdub> at the university
[09:58] <jdub> and spoke for 2 1/2 hours, including questions
[09:58] <Keybuk> "3BT" ?
[09:58] <jdub> my voice is a bit b0rk
[09:58] <jdub> but now i have to do mostly thesame thing in under an hour
[09:58] <jdub> it's very tom stoppard
[09:58] <jdub> Keybuk: badger badger badger tour
[09:59] <jsgotangco> mushroom musrhoom
[09:59] <zyga> ohhh
[09:59] <zyga> that reminds me
[09:59] <zyga> I've found a strange bug in debian-installer
[09:59] <zyga> after partitioning phase where I've selected to format one partition on an ATA disk and leave everything else as is
[10:00] <zyga> the installer borked with something about 'unusual ext2 partition' and 'unable to resize'
[10:00] <zyga> I don't remember the exact string but I'm sure I could look it up
[10:00] <jdub> jsgotangco: Treenaks, Seveas and i did the badger dance last night ;)
[10:00] <Keybuk> jdub: dude, it's so about the drake dance now
[10:01] <zyga> the setup was as follows: 1 ATA disk, 40GB via /dev/hda and two SATA disks via pci controller, 37 and 200GB
[10:01] <Keybuk> that's the one where we all stand around in a room twiddling our thumbs and waiting
[10:01] <zyga> after disconnecting sata disks the installer didn't crash
[10:01] <zyga> note that I didn't ask it to mount any other partition apart from the formatted / partition
[10:01] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:02] <jsgotangco> schnaakkess
[10:02] <Treenaks> jsgotangco: and we have it on video
[10:02] <\sh> jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badger_Badger_Badger
[10:03] <jsgotangco> Treenaks, oh my link?
[10:04] <Treenaks> jsgotangco: I haven't pulled it off the cam yet, it's 2.5 hours of DV tape :)
[10:04] <jsgotangco> i've seen the football badgers before
[10:04] <Treenaks> football badgers?
[10:05] <fabbione> sivang: do you have 2 minutes to help me?
[10:05] <sivang> fabbione: always
[10:05] <jsgotangco> yes theres also christmas badgers
[10:05] <fabbione> sivang: you have been working on LP to register specs, right?
[10:05] <jsgotangco> the footbal badgers say "england england"
[10:05] <infinity> mdz : Right, context gathered, I'll have to play with as many tetex bugs as I can get my hands on, and monitor the BTS for a while, but I'm still fairly certain that's the route we want to go.  Most of the bugs look trivial, and easier to fix for us than Debian (just due to the fact that I can fix 'em all in a day, rather than waiting on maintainers)
[10:05] <fabbione> sivang: if so, do you mind to drive me trough the process?
[10:05] <sivang> fabbione: yes, intend to continue with this and finish up today
[10:05] <sivang> fabbione: np
[10:06] <fabbione> sivang: i only have one specs to register, so it's more like to understand the process right at the first shot :)
[10:06] <sivang> fabbione: 1) Draft your spec on the wiki , add it to UBZ/BOFs page over wiki
[10:06] <dholbach> good morning
[10:06] <sivang> fabbione: 2) go to launchapd.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[10:06] <ajmitch> morning dholbach 
[10:06] <infinity> mdz : And no, I don't know what timezone I'm in anymore either.  I figure if I get REALLY out of whack, I'll be just about right when I get to Canada, though. ;)
[10:07] <sivang> fabbione: 3) add an entry there, fill required info in requested fields
[10:07] <fabbione> sivang: ok.. thanks
[10:07] <sivang> fabbione: 4) "Add to meeting" on the right menu, and you're done :)
[10:07] <Keybuk> infinity: it's when you arrive on Canada on Wednesday, when it's Sunday for everyone else, you have to worry
[10:08] <sivang> fabbione: (4) is rather imporant, since if you leave it it doesn't show on the general agenda.
[10:08] <fabbione> sivang: ok.. thanks
[10:08] <sivang> fabbione: but really, only one spec? ;-)
[10:09] <infinity> Keybuk : Well, I /do/ live in the future, so anything's possible.
[10:10] <sivang> Keybuk: how can that happne? lingoliris :-) ?
[10:10] <infinity> Keybuk : It's a shame that moving to Australia didn't allow me to win Canadian lotteries, but I suspect this just means I misunderstood how timezones work.
[10:10] <fabbione> sivang: well i did propose one, but it has hell of a lot of implications :)
[10:10] <sivang> fabbione: then you should break it to small, "manageable" chunks ;-)
[10:10] <sivang> fabbione: so we can spec each one of them seperately
[10:11] <fabbione> sivang: it's not really possible, because it's one block that touches several subsystems
[10:11] <sivang> fabbione: :)
[10:12] <fabbione> sivang: url to the RawSpecDraft?
[10:12] <fabbione> the one to copy and use to write a new one?
[10:14] <sivang> fabbione: eh, that is now SpecTemplate
[10:14] <fabbione> ok thanks
[10:14] <sivang> fabbione: and SpecSpec has some guidelines
[10:15] <infinity> fabbione : If you go to wiki.ubuntu.com/MyNewSpec, it will offer "SpecTemplate" as a list of templates on the left, so you don't have to copy and paste.
[10:15] <infinity> Clock on it, and you end up editing "MyNewSpec" with template=SpecTemplate
[10:15] <fabbione> infinity: i prefer to edit locally in text mode and upload after
[10:15] <sivang> infinity: ooh, that's cool. This should be linked from launchapd
[10:16] <sivang> fabbione: that's actually more comfortable :-)
[10:16] <sivang> editing against web is a pain
[10:16] <infinity> fabbione : I like to create the initial page to stake my claim on namespace, copy into a text editor, work locally, then paste when done. :)
[10:16] <Mithrandir> I should hack up my wiki file access handler for emacs.
[10:17] <infinity> This also prevents firefox segfaulting for NO APPARENT REASON AND LOSING ALL MY EDITS on long wiki pages.
[10:17] <fabbione> infinity: ehehhe
[10:17] <infinity> Also, I hate wikis.
[10:17] <infinity> I wonder if I can get fired for admitting that?
[10:17] <fabbione> wget --no-check-certificate "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecTemplate?action=raw"
[10:17] <fabbione> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 FORBIDDEN
[10:18] <fabbione> wiki it's your birthday!
[10:19] <Mithrandir> fabbione: it works if you use --user-agent="Mozilla/5.0"
[10:19] <Mithrandir> which is bloody stupid
[10:19] <fabbione> Mithrandir: exactly
[10:19] <mdke> you could file a bug in Moin
[10:21] <Mithrandir> mdke: it's a bug in how it's set up for us, not in moin per se.
[10:21] <mdke> ah
[10:21] <mdke> then https://wiki.ubuntu.com/wiki/bugs or something
[10:22] <mdke> wiki/BugReports sorry
[10:26] <coastGNU> Kamion: Is there any roadmap for OEM-Install documentation? E.G. What is the state of art for OEM doc, who is working on documentation, what will be documented, ..., ...
[10:26] <coastGNU> Kamion: IMO it needs some beef, sasp...
[10:26] <jsgotangco> coastGNU, like a white paper?
[10:27] <jsgotangco> it was in the back of my mind last night...
[10:28] <coastGNU> jsgotangco: There's need for much more like that. - How to remaster a Ubuntu CD, how to set up own preeseed files, how to introduce such modifications in an OEM environment, and much more
[10:28] <jsgotangco> ahh not on my league then...
[10:29] <coastGNU> jsgotangco: Up to now OEM install is only a nice to have but it lacks just in the well documented HowTos an OEM will need.
[10:30] <coastGNU> jsgotangco: There are some of them in the internet but no OEM, at least I don't know any, who will dig for them and fizzle it together.
[10:30] <jsgotangco> well that's true I only know the obvious details on how it works, but not what's happening underneath...
[10:31] <coastGNU> jsgotangco: OEM Install is only one little brickstone in the workbench an OEM will need...
[10:31] <jsgotangco> coastGNU, do you work for an OEM?
[10:33] <coastGNU> jsgotangco: No, I don't. But Ive been asked by an OEM, only a small one (turnover 200M EUR/Y). But I'm not allowed to work for him on an voluntqary base...
[10:34] <Kamion> coastGNU: not at present; yes, I know I should pull my finger out and write some ...
[10:34] <coastGNU> jsgotangco: s/voluntqary/voluntary/
[10:34] <Kamion> at the moment it's basically just various bits of documentation on the wiki
[10:34] <Kamion> you're right that much better documentation is needed
[10:34] <Kamion> the installation manual covers some of the things you're asking for (preseed files)
[10:35] <jsgotangco> Kamion, it'd be nice to have docs about branding, changing wallpapers, stuff
[10:35] <Kamion> that I don't know much about myself
[10:35] <coastGNU> Kamion: I would like to do that. But as I've just told to jsgotangco I'm not alowed to do this on an voluntary base anymore. So may be there might be a way to let it be interesting enough for this OEM to pay for the job.
[10:38] <Kamion> well, I wouldn't object :)
[10:38] <coastGNU> Kamion: I've been working for them some years ago, aside the university (precission engeneering). 
[10:38] <pitti> jbailey: the current bzr snapshot is uninstallable; is it possible in any way to only update the package when the selftest succeeds? (it currently fails)
[10:39] <Kamion> coastGNU: it's really something I should integrate into the installation manual
[10:39] <coastGNU> Kamion: As I see you are in the UK, right?
[10:40] <coastGNU> Kamion: May I ring you up by phone?
[10:40] <Kamion> I'm not very good on the phone
[10:40] <Kamion> I'd prefer IRC or e-mail if possible
[10:40] <coastGNU> Kamion: The better I am :-))
[10:42] <coastGNU> Kamion: There are some points I will not discuss in public. And email isn't duplex enough...
[10:42] <jordi> I have an HP laptop here that is havign lots and lots of trouble with Ubuntu breezy
[10:43] <Kamion> oh, when I said IRC I didn't necessarily mean a public channel
[10:44] <coastGNU> Kamion: An non public irc channel will be Ok
[10:45] <Kamion> you know about /query? :-)
[10:45] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:50] <jdub> slow interweb
[10:50] <jdub> evil badness
[10:50] <jdub> slow interweb
[10:50] <jdub> this is my song
[11:26] <mvo> Kamion: do we use APT::Authentication::TrustCDROM currently? 
[11:27] <Kamion> mvo: no, I don't think so
[11:27] <mvo> Kamion: and we haven't documented it yet either? I would like to name it "Trust-CDROM" to make it more consistent with the rest of the config options
[11:27] <mvo> but I want to be sure not to break anything
[11:27] <Kamion> ./doc/examples/configure-index:77:     TrustCDROM "false";            // consider the CDROM always trusted
[11:28] <Kamion> *you've* documented it, I haven't ...
[11:28] <infinity> That doesn't count as documentation, it's auto-generated from the code, isn't it?
[11:28] <Kamion> and shipped in /usr/share/doc/apt/
[11:28] <infinity> Well, true.  But who reads that? :)
[11:28] <infinity> (other than me)
[11:28] <mvo> right, that's probably enough. 
[11:29] <Kamion> heh
[11:29] <Kamion> reminds me of:
 elmo: grip_3.2.0-5/sparc seems to have gone missing, marked as
[11:29] <Kamion>          Uploaded 2 1/2 hours ago and nowhere to be found on newraff
 uh?
       grip |    3.2.0-5 |      unstable | source, alpha, arm, hppa, i386, ia64, m68k, mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, sparc
 I hid it in the pool, being the cunning cabalist that I am
[11:30] <Mithrandir> *chuckle*
[11:31] <infinity> Hah. :)
[11:37] <\sh> grmpf..
[11:38] <\sh> dbuntu ... ubuntu for dbox2 i need now 
[11:38] <Lathiat> dbox2?
[11:39] <\sh> yes...a dvb-s or dvb-c digital tv decoder box from nokia
[11:46] <\sh> but I need a special tuxbox version for it now
[11:49] <Diziet> `Safe and text-oriented boot mode for better clarity and infinite justice on boot' ??
[11:52] <ogra> \sh, develop one... 
[11:52] <ogra> ;)
[11:52] <Keybuk> TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!
[11:52] <Keybuk> infinity: no, not you
[11:53] <pitti> sivang: any idea how to fix culmus? (#17175)
[12:10] <maswan> Znarl: http://farbror.acc.umu.se/stats/monitordata/index.shtml
[12:10] <maswan> Znarl: at 15:40 local time I stopped redirecting to one of the hosts
[12:11] <maswan> Znarl: there are 9 current downloads left, compared to 450-500 on the still active redirect target
[12:12] <Znarl> maswan : Nice, we're seeing a fairly simular drop in bandwidth.
[12:20] <pitti> Hi carstenh 
[12:20] <carstenh> hi pitti 
[12:27] <seb128> pitti: is there a way to put a label on a vfat partition?
[12:27] <pitti> seb128: mkdosfs -n
[12:27] <pitti> seb128: unfortunately there is no tool to *change* a vfat label
[12:28] <pitti> seb128: there is one for ext2/3 and the like, but not for vfat
[12:28] <pitti> seb128: well - hexedit /dev/sda1 :-)
[12:28] <seb128> hum
[12:28] <seb128> and is nautilus supposed to use the label?
[12:29] <infinity> It owuld be trivial to hack mkdosfs to support label changing.
[12:29] <seb128> that's for http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18036
[12:29] <pitti> seb128: yes, it is
[12:29] <pitti> seb128: through hal
[12:29] <pitti> seb128: not on hard disk, though
[12:29] <seb128> what I said on the bug
[12:32] <pitti> seb128: updated and reassigned to hal and me
[12:35] <seb128> pitti: thanks
[01:14] <dholbach> who can i add in bugzilla to propose a *-backports upload?
[01:14] <Kamion> I believe elmo prefers you to contact him directly, not via bugzilla
[01:15] <Kamion> use e-mail, he's not around today
[01:15] <dholbach> oh, ok, i thought the backports crew did that
[01:15] <dholbach> thank you
[01:15] <Kamion> oh, yeah, if you're not in the backports team, talk to Mez or somebody?
[01:16] <Mithrandir> Kamion: can you get yaboot-installer to install to an external FW drive?
[01:16] <dholbach> Kamion: yeah, wanted to CC him in bugzilla/malone
[01:16] <Kamion> Mithrandir: not unless ofpath can deal with it
[01:16] <Kamion> Mithrandir: in general failures there are down to ofpath not knowing how to figure out the openfirmware path to the drive
[01:17] <Mithrandir> Kamion: ok, and OF doesn't support booting off external stuff?
[01:17] <ogra> dholbach, thats usually done via the backports ML, not bugzilla
[01:17] <dholbach> i see
[01:17] <dholbach> then I'd CC the list :-p
[01:18] <Kamion> Mithrandir: it does, although you often have to feed it the path manually at boot time. the problem is not generally OF, it's that the ofpath utility (part of yaboot) isn't complete.
[01:18] <ogra> dholbach, jdon will do a backport and put it up for testing somewhere... if the tests are positive he normally triggers Mez/elmo to build it 
[01:38] <sabdfl> https://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newdev
[01:38] <sabdfl> i've tidied that page up a little bit
[01:38] <sabdfl> comments? brickbats?
[01:41] <Lathiat> brickbats?
[01:41] <Lathiat> why not baseball bats :)
[01:42] <fabbione> sabdfl: any reason why it asks for a login on the www site?
[01:42] <Lathiat> fabbione: i can't even view it
[01:42] <Lathiat> fabbione: when i login
[01:42] <sabdfl> fabbione: hmm... let me see
[01:42] <fabbione> i don't think i have an account 
[01:43] <Lathiat> fabbione: launchpad ?
[01:43] <Lathiat> that worked for me at least
[01:43] <fabbione> that was my first attempt and he told me that i don't exist
[01:43] <Lathiat> oh
[01:44] <sabdfl> try now?
[01:44] <fabbione> much better :)
[01:44] <Lathiat> yep good
[01:45] <sabdfl> phew :-)
[01:45] <sabdfl> NO MORE DEVELOPERS
[01:45] <pitti> lifeless: "bzr push --help" still says that it will bail out on unknown files, although that does not seem to be true any more. Can this be fixed, please?
[01:46] <lifeless> pitti: sure thing, can you file a bug please? bzr in launchpad
[01:46] <Lathiat> "skill and knowledge in the open source. "
[01:46] <pitti> lifeless: sure
[01:47] <fabbione> sabdfl: you mention "Ubuntu Service Level Commitment" but there is no detailed explanation (at least linked in the page) to what are these standars
[01:47] <fabbione> standards even
[01:52] <fabbione> sabdfl: "Once your have made substantial contributions over a period of 4-8 weeks" <- i think this should be more likely "for not less than 2/3 months"
[01:52] <sabdfl> fabbione: MOTU?
[01:53] <fabbione> sabdfl: yes.. 4/8 weeks is easy to achieve in time.. the person might disappear one week later.. it sorts of raise the presence level requirement a bit
[01:54] <sabdfl> i thnk we should keep MOTU entry pretty straightforward. much more strict for core dev
[01:54] <fabbione> for core yes..
[01:54] <fabbione> no doubts
[01:55] <fabbione> i can tell from an AM experience that 2/3 months filter a lot of people that get overexicited in the beginning and lose interest pretty fast
[01:55] <fabbione> even for a MOTU, but well.. that's a MOTU decision :) just my 2DKK
[01:56] <ogra> fabbione, motus that really want to help out appear in #uuntu-motu and work with the team... i think others drop the towel before reaching IRC
[01:56] <ogra> *#ubuntu-motu
[01:58] <fabbione> i have a better idea :)
[01:58] <fabbione> let's add as a task: You must fix at least two kernel bugs to join the community :P
[01:58] <fabbione> sabdfl: seriously.. it looks ok to me
[01:58] <dholbach> and you'll do everything alone, fabbione :)
[02:00] <jdub> grrrrrr
[02:00] <jdub> my laptop has frozen 3 times in the last few hours
[02:00] <Treenaks> jdub: disk b0rkage?
[02:00] <sabdfl> ok cool
[02:00] <jdub> doesn't look like it
[02:01] <jdub> can't see anything useufl in the logs
[02:01] <Lathiat> memtest?
[02:01] <jdub> extremely annoying
[02:01] <Lathiat> haha fabbione 
[02:01] <jdub> Lathiat: might do that tonight
[02:03] <mpt> sabdfl: "Being a developer is orthogonal to membership" would be more understandable if "membership" linked to the page about membership
[02:05] <infinity> sabdfl : I might tone down the "matter of great pride" bit in reference to core developers.  We have enough people clamoring for debian.org email addresses purely for prestige reasons, I don't think we need to make ubuntu.com end up the same way.
[02:05] <pitti> sabdfl: so a developer does not need to be a member? that's surprising
[02:06] <infinity> pitti : Later on, it states they have to.
[02:06] <pitti> then it's not orthogonal
[02:06] <mpt> hmm, true
[02:06] <mpt> it's a subset
[02:06] <infinity> No, but technical people LOVE the word orthogonal. ;)
[02:06] <mpt> or a ... post-requisite?
[02:06] <Lathiat> yeh its just a buzz word
[02:06] <pitti> but the correct word would be "imply"
[02:06] <Lathiat> no one really knows what it means
[02:07] <pitti> Lathiat: it has a clearly defined meaning
[02:07] <Lathiat> sure but no one KNOWS so they just assume ;p
[02:07] <Lathiat> 'wow big word, ubuntu membership is cool' :)
[02:07] <mpt> Actually, since "you need to be a member" is said twice elsewhere, that sentence could be nuked
[02:07] <pitti> mpt++
[02:08] <fabbione> ahahah
[02:08] <fabbione> oh well
[02:08] <fabbione> time to get off line
[02:08] <fabbione> later guys
[02:08] <pitti> cu fabbione 
[02:08] <fabbione> (are we there yet?)
[02:08] <infinity> mpt : I thin kthe point of that sentence is to discourage people from applying to be developers when they don't need to for their level of participation.
[02:08] <infinity> mpt : Hence, the sentence should stay, just be reworded to not have false logic. :)
[02:08] <infinity> mpt : It's important to point out to people that you don't need upload rights for a variety of contributions.
[02:09] <infinity> mpt : Yet another problem Debian has that we shouldn't repeat.
[02:09] <mpt> infinity: well, it's already repeated twice
[02:10] <mpt> actually, three times
[02:10] <mpt> unless you mean, "You can be a member without being a developer"
[02:13] <infinity> mpt : Yes.
[02:14] <infinity> mpt : That's the important distinction.  That membership doesn't require developership, and most people shouldn't even be reading that page to start with.
[02:16] <Lathiat> ergh, i seem to havelost my ability to edit bugs in launchpad
[02:16] <Lathiat> +editstatus that is
[02:16] <Lathiat> eh wtf it worked this time
[02:19] <Kamion> Lathiat: anyone with mathematical training should know what it means
[02:19] <Kamion> (orthogonal)
[02:26] <marcin_ant> is there something like 'breezy goals' wiki page but for dapper release?
[02:27] <mpt> Lathiat: If you have multiple windows open, and log in in another window, the link in the first window won't go to the right place
[02:27] <marcin_ant> and more - are there any bounties available for dapper? (especially if not released with breezy)
[02:27] <apokryphos> marcin_ant: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDrake
[02:27] <Lathiat> mpt: oh, right, thats probably what happened
[02:29] <marcin_ant> apokryphos: thanks - and what happened with bounties - any available with dapper?
[02:31] <apokryphos> marcin_ant: I imagine several will be deferred forward, but either yet-to-be-determined or just not documented yet
[02:31] <ogra> marcin_ant, bounties are handled in launchpad now afaik
[02:31] <ogra> search there ...
[02:31] <marcin_ant> ogra: welll I did... 125 bucks and pretty hard things to do...
[02:38] <marcin_ant> ogra: thx
[02:39] <marcin_ant> ogra: btw does anyone in ubunutu care about emacs packages for breezy/dapper?
[02:39] <ogra> marcin_ant, wrong person to ask, i'm heavy vim user ;)
[02:40] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: I care very much about emacs, yes.
[02:40] <ogra> so i dont care at all :)
[02:40] <Mithrandir> $ pgrep emacs | wc -l
[02:40] <Mithrandir> 8
[02:40] <marcin_ant> ogra: currenlty packages for emacs are pretty much outdated (emacs22 not released yet but pretty much stable and with a lot of new and nice stuff)
[02:40] <marcin_ant> ogra: ok :)
[02:40] <ogra> marcin_ant, they'll surely be in dpper if they release in time
[02:40] <ogra> *dapper
[02:40] <infinity> Not released yet probably means we won't carry it.
[02:41] <infinity> Supporting CVS snapshots longterm is a serious pain.
[02:41] <marcin_ant> infinity: well that's true but you know - emacs development is really slow
[02:41] <infinity> I've noticed. :)
[02:42] <marcin_ant> infinity: and in fact I really don't know why they don't release much often - in my opinion emacs22 is quite ready for release...
[02:43] <infinity> Because emacs is mostly used by people as slow as upstream? :)
[02:44] <marcin_ant> infinity: yet another vi user?
[02:44] <infinity> (Or, more to the point, emacs users are used to stability, both from the quality of code, and an unchanging feature set, and they hate moving targets)
[02:44] <infinity> Nah, I'm mostly editor agnostic.
[02:45] <Diziet> I'm still using Emacs 19.
[02:45] <infinity> Diziet : Thank you for proving my point. :)
[02:46] <marcin_ant> infinity: well it's true but in fact packages for emacs in debian/ubuntu - sorry - they sucks pretty much
[02:46] <seb128> I would be happy to have a emacs-gtk2 :p
[02:46] <marcin_ant> seb128: I got emacs-gtk2 packaged already
[02:46] <pitti> seb128: there is gvim, so what else do you need? :-)
[02:47] <marcin_ant> seb128: don't listen to pitti ;)
[02:47] <seb128> pitti: I'm a vim newbie and not wanting to learn another editor :p
[02:47] <Kinnison> Kamion: I'm rolling your debian_installer stuff into launchpad :-)
[02:48] <pitti> seb128: that's perfectly reasonable :)
[02:48] <seb128> anyway, I want NEW CRACK
[02:48] <seb128> WHERE IS DAPPER :)
[02:48] <marcin_ant> infinity: and another thing that maybe quality of code in emacs is high but quality of deb packages is really low
[02:48] <pitti> seb128: I already stacked new crack in chinstrap:~/uploads :-)
[02:49] <seb128> nice :)
[02:49] <marcin_ant> infinity: especially dependencies and such things... there is a lot of problems with them
[02:49] <infinity> marcin_ant : Bug filed with patches are welcome.
[02:49] <infinity> s/Bug/Bugs/
[02:49] <infinity> Complaining that "stuff sucks" doesn't help much.
[02:50] <marcin_ant> infinity: well the problem is that these bugs need to repackage emacs
[02:50] <marcin_ant> infinity: and rethink policy for emacs
[02:50] <azeem> marcin_ant: is emacs-snapshot(-gtk) not what you want?
[02:51] <seb128> marcin_ant: http://lists.debian.org/debian-emacsen/ to discuss changes maybe?
[02:51] <marcin_ant> azeem: yes - I got it already and heavy modified by myself
[02:52] <azeem> what do you mean with "these bugs need to repackage emacs"?
[02:52] <marcin_ant> seb128: well it's pretty hard to talk with these people since they think that they current packages and debian policy for emacs is brilliant
[02:52] <Kamion> Kinnison: the raw-installer code?
[02:52] <infinity> Kinnison : \o/
[02:52] <Kamion> Kinnison: rah, thanks
[02:53] <marcin_ant> azeem: the thing is that emacs is 'emacs' binary and a bunch of *.el files in common package
[02:53] <marcin_ant> azeem: and there are dependencies set in debian/control in emacs21|emacs-snapshot and so on
[02:53] <Kamion> marcin_ant: welcome to the need for compromise ;-) they in turn probably think you don't understand any of the benefits of the current system and just want to change things for the sake of it ...
[02:54] <Kamion> I'm sure there's a middle ground if you come to it with an open mind
[02:54] <marcin_ant> azeem: but the problem is that these dependencies are in fact related with emacs binary
[02:54] <marcin_ant> azeem: while there is a really long list of dependencies required for some emacs modules
[02:55] <marcin_ant> azeem: short example - flyspell.el requires ispell
[02:55] <marcin_ant> azeem: while ispell is not on dependencies list
[02:55] <marcin_ant> azeem: the same for tramp, ange-ftp and so on so on
[02:56] <marcin_ant> azeem: so we have two options - add _all_ these dependencies to emacs debian/control
[02:57] <marcin_ant> azeem: or split emacs package to small packages with small list of dependencies in each 'subpackage'
[02:58] <Kamion> people should be allowed to use Recommends for that kind of thing
[02:58] <marcin_ant> azeem: and yet another thing is that we have a lot of doubled software - for example speedbar is in emacs21 while there is speedbar as separate package - the same with gnus and many more
[02:59] <marcin_ant> Kamion: sure but it's not so easy
[02:59] <Diziet> This kind of thing is one thing that Recommends is for.
[03:00] <marcin_ant> Kamion: yet another thing is that it depends if some emacs packages load when emacs starts or not
[03:00] <Diziet> ??
[03:01] <marcin_ant> Kamion: if you got something in your load-path for emacs then it _should_ work - just work
[03:01] <marcin_ant> Diziet: for example - flyspell.el is in emacs load-path
[03:01] <Diziet> If you have the right autoloads.
[03:01] <marcin_ant> Diziet: it means that you can use this at any time you want
[03:01] <Diziet> Yes, but I don't see your point.
[03:01] <marcin_ant> Diziet: but if you don't have ispell - you will get error message
[03:02] <Diziet> So install ispell then.
[03:02] <marcin_ant> Diziet: my point is - things should _just work_ - but they don't
[03:02] <Diziet> http://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2002/07/msg00017.html seems tangentially relevant.
[03:02] <marcin_ant> Diziet: it's not ubuntu philosophy right? - and this is why you got dependencies for
[03:03] <Diziet> You think it should automatically install ispell for you ?
[03:03] <marcin_ant> Diziet: ispell should be installed before
[03:03] <Diziet> But I might prefer not to install ispell on my 24Mb 486/33.
[03:03] <azeem> marcin_ant: what's wrong with Recommends? 
[03:03] <marcin_ant> Diziet: then you don't need flyspell.el too
[03:04] <Aegir> Heheh. Tinkering with the 'Browser Appliance' VMWare made for the VMWare player. Infact, doing an upgrade to Breezy from hoary... Lets see how this works
[03:04] <marcin_ant> azeem: Recommends are for things that are optional/additional right?
[03:04] <Diziet> marcin_ant: If I don't have flyspell.el, then when I say M-x flyspell it gives me an error message.
[03:04] <Diziet> Is that somehow unacceptable ?
[03:04] <marcin_ant> azeem: but not for things really required to run something
[03:05] <azeem> marcin_ant: I think it also applies to this case, i.e. a dependency for an optional part of the package
[03:05] <marcin_ant> Diziet: no it will say [No match] 
[03:05] <Diziet> That's an error message.
[03:05] <azeem> not a very good one, though
[03:05] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: in the case of gnus, what would you do?  Just not have the gnus released with emacs, or not the newer upstream version?
[03:05] <Diziet> Why do you care so much exactly what kind of error message you get ?
[03:06] <marcin_ant> Diziet: well you will get the same error if you will try to execute 'blablbalba' on gnome-terminal
[03:06] <marcin_ant> Diziet: error and 'no match' are not the same things
[03:07] <marcin_ant> Diziet: no match means that there is no software you want to use
[03:07] <marcin_ant> Diziet: error means that your software is installed but broken - it's something different
[03:07] <Diziet> If you type `ispell' in a gnome-terminal you get the same error message as if you try to run it via flyspell, surely ?
[03:08] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: micropackages is not the solution, really.
[03:08] <Diziet> This distinction of two kinds of error is meaningless.
[03:09] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: well maybe they aren't but if you got gnus in emacs and gnus as separate package then you need to have an easy way to configure which one you want to use
[03:09] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: yes.  Load-path.
[03:09] <Diziet> In particular, please read what I wrote in http://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2002/07/msg00001.html.
[03:09] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: and another thing is that as Diziet said - why double packages on something like 24mb 486/33?
[03:10] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: why increase the size of the Packages file for _everybody_?
[03:10] <Mithrandir> 22M     /var/lib/apt/lists
[03:11] <Mithrandir> which means running apt-get update takes more time, it means running apt-get install takes more time, and so on.
[03:11] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: so just having stuff in Recommends or Suggests is, IMO, just fine.
[03:13] <Diziet> xenophobe:~# time dpkg -l >/dev/null 
[03:13] <Diziet> real    1m33.397s
[03:13] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: so I should create a list of recommended packages for emacs and send patches for debian/control in emacs21
[03:14] <infinity> Diziet : Ouch.
[03:14] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: sure, that would make sense.
[03:14] <Diziet> That 24Mb 486/33 I mentioned is not hypothetical.
[03:14] <marcin_ant> Diziet: :D
[03:15] <marcin_ant> Diziet: and now I feel much better in front of my few years old machine ;)
[03:15] <Diziet> That's just the firewall, thankfully.
[03:15] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: so - recommendations are ok
[03:15] <Mithrandir> dpkg -l  0,07s user 0,01s system 40% cpu 0,208 total
[03:16] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: but what about doubled software?
[03:16] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: I don't see it as a problem, can you try explaining what you think the problem is?
[03:17] <jbailey> pitti: It does thatnow.
[03:18] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: problems -> gnus, speedbar, calc, tramp and propably more
[03:19] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: they are included in emacs - but also available as standalone packages
[03:19] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: you're not explaining why that is a problem.
[03:21] <pitti> jbailey: great
[03:21] <jbailey> pitti: No, as in, why did it pass all the selftests? =)
[03:22] <pitti> jbailey: I tried to install the latest package some 7 hours ago, and they failed
[03:22] <jbailey> It still fails.
[03:22] <pitti> jbailey: ok, then we still have the same packages
[03:22] <jbailey> Yup
[03:22] <pitti> jbailey: I'm not sure whether the failed selftest is the cause for the failed installation, or the other way round, though
[03:23] <jbailey> There is no failed selftest...
[03:23] <jbailey> That's what I'm saying.
[03:23] <jbailey> "There is no spoon"
[03:23] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: I think that if you have two different versions of the same software then it's a problem itself
[03:24] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: another thing that 'Joe user' will be confused
[03:24] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: so you think that we have emacs21 and emacs21-nox is wrong?
[03:24] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: because when he is browsing a list of packages in synaptic/aptitude
[03:24] <Mithrandir> or the plethora of xemacs versions
[03:25] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: than he can see for example 'calc' while he already has _newer_ version of calc bundled with emacs21-common 
[03:25] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: emacs and emacs-nox are the same things but with different compilation options
[03:26] <paulproteus> Do you guys want a non-broken us.archive.ubuntu.com?  I can offer my computing club at JHU if you all want another host to put in a pool.
[03:26] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: speedbar bundled with emacs and speedbar standalone are different versions (releases) of the same application
[03:27] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: yes, but iirc emacs gives you the newest one, doesn't it?
[03:28] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: and that's the point - maintainers should decide - to have software bundled with emacs
[03:28] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: or as separate micropackages
[03:28] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: so if they got speedbar in emacs then remove speedbar standalone
[03:29] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: or if you got speedbar standalone then remove this one from emacs
[03:29] <carstenh> or just build calc and emacs31 from the same source-package?
[03:29] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: the emacs21-speedbar won't necessarily work with xemacs21 and vice versa.
[03:29] <marcin_ant> carstenh: and that's another thing....
[03:30] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: standalone speedbar won't necessarily work with emacs22 too
[03:31] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: correct, so how would you solve that?
[03:31] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: no idea :D
[03:31] <Diziet> I don't see what's wrong with bundling some foobar package with emacs46 and then having a separate foobar package which overrides the autoloads.
[03:31] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: this is why I'm here :)
[03:31] <Diziet> overrides> Only in the cases where it works and is better, of course.
[03:32] <Mithrandir> Diziet: for some definition of "works" and "better".
[03:32] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: carstenh idea is also pretty nice - to split emacs21 to emacs21 common and build emacs21-speedbar (only for emacs21 in dependencies and emacsen-install scripts!)
[03:32] <Diziet> Mithrandir: Yes, of course.  That's why we're not robots.
[03:32] <Diziet> marcin_ant: Nightmarish.  Zillions of pointless packages.
[03:33] <Mithrandir> Diziet: we might want to give our users the option to go with what's shipped upstream as well as jump forward when there's a newer release there.
[03:33] <Diziet> All of which will have an insane cross-dependency/conflict nightmare with half of the ohters.
[03:33] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: but the problem is that it is pretty hard to define versioning/naming convention
[03:33] <Diziet> mithrandir: Well, if you do it sanely, there'll be a way to set locally what it does.  Or isn't that what you meant ?
[03:34] <marcin_ant> Diziet: so... following your idea - we should just remove gnus/speedbar/calc as standalone packages
[03:34] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: if we take a step back and look at this whole thing, you think that making a zillion split packages is better than having emacs21, speedbar, gnus and some more as separate packages?
[03:34] <Diziet> marcin_ant: They should be standalone packages iff they are shipped and maintained separately upstream.
[03:34] <marcin_ant> Diziet: and bundle everything in emacs-common
[03:34] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: no, the gnus package for instance is very useful in some circumstances, since it has fixes I need.
[03:35] <Mithrandir> for a long time, gnus in emacs didn't do MIME, while the gnus package did have that support
[03:35] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: right - but then if you want to use gnus - from standalone package
[03:35] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: then you don't need this one from emacs21-common - right?
[03:35] <carstenh> marcin_ant: i did not suggest what you said, just put all that packages in one source package, i.e. (Source-)Package: emacs21, Binary: calc. this would avoid having the same source twice in the archive which is always suboptimal
[03:36] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: I might not, but the other user on the same system as me might not agree.  and it doesn't hurt to have it there.
[03:36] <marcin_ant> carstenh: you are right - but you should read debian policy for emacs
[03:36] <Mithrandir> carstenh: no, people might want the older version because they're more conservative, for instance.  Forcing them to run CVS snapshots of gnus would be wrong.
[03:36] <marcin_ant> carstenh: their idea is that you should have an ability to install more than one instance of emacs - called 'flavor'
[03:37] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: which I think makes a lot of sense, at least for multiuser systems.
[03:37] <marcin_ant> carstenh: and then you could have for example emacs20 emacs21 emacs22 and xemacs on single machine
[03:37] <carstenh> hmm, ok. the conservative argument is good :)
[03:37] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: it makes a lot less sense for single-user systems, I agree
[03:38] <Diziet> marcin_ant: The multiple versions thing is very sensible.
[03:39] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: if you compare how well the emacs packaging and policy works, compared with, say, the python one, I think I know which I prefer. :-)
[03:39] <marcin_ant> carstenh: and if you got some external package - say 'speedbar' then you get source .el files in your deb package
[03:39] <marcin_ant> carstenh: and then specialized install script from package called emacsen-common byte-compiles this speedbar sources
[03:39] <Diziet> -chiark:~> ps -ef | grep emacs | grep -v gnuserv | awk '{print $8}' | sort -u
[03:39] <Diziet> emacs
[03:39] <Diziet> emacs21
[03:39] <Diziet> grep
[03:39] <Diziet> xemacs
[03:39] <Diziet> xemacs21
[03:39] <marcin_ant> carstenh: for each emacs 'flavour' on your machine
[03:40] <Diziet> `emacs' is emacs19.
[03:40] <Diziet> `xemacs' is xemacs21.  I also have emacs20 but no-one is running that atm.
[03:40] <Diziet> -chiark:~> ll -uL /usr/bin/emacs20 
[03:40] <Diziet> -rwxr-xr-x    1 root     root      2917428 Oct  8 02:44 /usr/bin/emacs20*
[03:41] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: sorry to say but all this is just insane
[03:41] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: sooo we have an ability to install more than one emacs at the time
[03:41] <Diziet> I'm not hugely convinced by the whole byte-compiling thing but it's probably better than most of the other options.
[03:41] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: ok - we got 'flavours'
[03:42] <Diziet> marcin_ant: The multiple versions thing is very sensible.
[03:42] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: but do we need 'flavours' for gnus and other packages too?
[03:42] <Diziet> Oops, mispaste.
[03:42] <marcin_ant> Diziet: I agree but only for binaries - I mean /usr/bin/emacs
[03:42] <Diziet> What do you mean ?  You're saying you don't want both Emacs's (whichever Emacs) and separate gnus ?
[03:42] <marcin_ant> Diziet: but not for external packages
[03:42] <Mithrandir> Diziet: the alternative would be to ship pre-compiled .el files, which would be insane when we have multiple emacs versions in the archive.
[03:43] <marcin_ant> Diziet: no - I want to have emacs20, emacs21 and so on
[03:43] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: we don't have flavours for gnus and other external packages.  We have the ability to install a newer version which overrides the built-in one.
[03:43] <Diziet> mithrandir: Quite so.  It would mean that an Emacs addon source package would Build-Depends on lots of Emacs binaries.  Or that the .deb it produced would depend on which you had installed.
[03:43] <marcin_ant> Diziet: but then I want single version of gnus, speedbar etc.
[03:43] <Mithrandir> Diziet: my point exactly. :-)
[03:43] <Diziet> marcin_ant: Well, sorry, but people seem to like having a choice.
[03:44] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: and this never one overrides it in /etc/emacs/site-start.d ?
[03:44] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: and is... system wide?
[03:44] <marcin_ant> anyway we have three options
[03:45] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: seriously, I don't see it as a problem. 
[03:45] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: ok then example
[03:46] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: you got 'Joe users' that runs apt-get install emacs21
[03:46] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: then he gets emacs21 with calc bundled with this package
[03:46] <Mithrandir> s/apt-get install/installs through synaptic/, but yes.
[03:46] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: but he has no idea that he already has 'calc'
[03:47] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: and then he runs 'ctrl+f' to get list of all packages for emacs
[03:47] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: and then he runs apt-get install calc - and gets older version of calc that he already has
[03:48] <azeem> would a Provides: help here?
[03:48] <Diziet> Well, it's probably wrong when that happens.  Some bit of startup stuff in site-start.d should choose the `best' one by default.
[03:48] <Diziet> azeem: No.
[03:49] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: I know that emacs users are usually 'power users' but don't you see that current policy is pretty confusing?
[03:50] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: how do I find out what version "calc" bundled with Emacs is? :-P
[03:50] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: well if there is no M-x calc-version
[03:51] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: than you propably should get some info from source code....
[03:51] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: no calculator-version {function,variable}, no.
[03:51] <Mithrandir> it's not noted in the source code either.
[03:51] <Mithrandir> anyway, I don't think it's particularly confusing, no.
[03:51] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: while.... holy crap you cannot take a look at .el because there is no el file for calc
[03:52] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: if you don't have emacs-el package <rotfl>
[03:52] <Mithrandir> sure you can, install emacs21-el
[03:52] <Mithrandir> it's usually not shipped, since most people don't need it
[03:53] <pitti> lamont-away: ping
[03:53] <marcin_ant> soooo as you see you have to be a kind of 'power user'/linux guru/hacker/cracker
[03:53] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: to know about all these things
[03:54] <Diziet> You have to know what software you want to use.  But I think that can be expected of Emacs users.
[03:54] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: no, I just don't think it's so bloody hard you're trying to make it. :-)
[03:54] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: an average user won't take a lok at source code to get which version of software he has
[03:55] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: I just noted that there's no way to get the version of the "calc" shipped with emacs21, so I wondered how you knew it's older
[03:55] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: the version info is in calc.el
[03:56] <Mithrandir> $ dpkg -L emacs21 | grep calc.
[03:56] <Mithrandir> $
[03:56] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: in comment on top - I got emacs-cvs so my calc is 2.1
[03:57] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: maybe try dpkg -L emacs21-el | grep calc
[03:57] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: or emacs21-common
[03:58] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: $ grep version /usr/share/emacs/21.4/lisp/calculator.el doesn't give me anything resembling relevant (except :version "21.1", which is the emacs version
[03:58] <bob2> in conclusion, people smart enough to use emacs are not dumb enough to be confused.
[03:58] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: calculator.el != calc/calc.el
[03:58] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: well, emacs21 doesn't ship any calc.el
[03:58] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: emacs21-common?
[03:59] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: there is no calc.el in emacs21-el.
[04:00] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: and if calc is older than the version shipped with emacs22, it just shouldn't build for emacs22 until there's a newer version of calc out than what's shipped in emacs22
[04:01] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: ok - got me
[04:01] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: calc is bundled with emacs-22 (cvs)
[04:01] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: anyway you still can try
[04:01] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: gnus, speedbar
[04:01] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: but if you install calc, it won't try to build for emacs22, unless there's a bug in the package.
[04:02] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: gnus is newer than what's in emacs21, I can't be arsed to install speedbar.
[04:02] <marcin_ant> haaa and now I need to take a look at the source - just a moment
[04:02] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: anyway, I think we've worked this down to "if installing a separate package makes the available version in an emacs version older, it's a bug"
[04:02] <xyz> hello guys
[04:03] <xyz> I have a question
[04:03] <marcin_ant> ehh no there is no 'calc' in emacs21*.orig.tar.gz...
[04:03] <xyz> when I try to start the Xorg server as user/root I get an error, which says that the priority is set to -1
[04:03] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: right
[04:03] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: and bugs are easy.  They just need to be fixed.
[04:03] <xyz> I'm using kernel 2.6, therefore it has to be set to 0
[04:04] <xyz> I also did a dpkg-reconfigure xserver-common
[04:04] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: but calc were just wrong example - because calc is bundled with emacs22
[04:04] <xyz> and set the nice level to 0
[04:04] <xyz> but it still doesn't work with the same error: 
[04:04] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: well, the package tells the emacs compile scripts what emacsen it works with
[04:04] <xyz> X: warning; process set to priority -1 instead of requested priority 0
[04:04] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: there is stil a question what about another bundled packages...
[04:05] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: hmm then just a moment
[04:05] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: ok - calc will not install on my machine while I don't have emacs22
[04:06] <bob2> xyz: warning != error
[04:07] <xyz> yes
[04:07] <xyz> I mean it's an error for me
[04:07] <xyz> lol
[04:07] <xyz> because the xserver doesn't work and I don't have an idead, how to set the nice level to 0 (though dpkg-reconfigure xserver-common didn't work)
[04:08] <bob2> this is not causing X not to work
[04:08] <xyz> Xorg is working
[04:08] <marcin_ant> xyz: sorry to say it but it's #ubuntu problem
[04:08] <xyz> k
[04:08] <xyz> just gimme a hint
[04:08] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: so our point is that we should keep packages that are bundled with emacs in emacs[xx] -common
[04:09] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: uh, no?
[04:09] <marcin_ant> xyz: try to take a look at
[04:09] <Mithrandir> or possibly, yes.
[04:09] <Mithrandir> emacs21-common should probably contain the .elc files for emacs21 and emacs21-nox
[04:09] <marcin_ant> xyz: /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[04:10] <marcin_ant> and we should take a look at emacs install scripts they shouldn't allow overriding newer versions with older from standalone packages
[04:11] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: but we also should improve our Recommends: tags in debian/control for emacs[xx] 
[04:11] <Mithrandir> marcin_ant: sure.
[04:11] <Diziet> I'm not convinced.
[04:11] <Mithrandir> Diziet: about recommends?
[04:11] <Diziet> I don't think emacsnn should Recommend every random program that some .el happens to invoke.
[04:11] <xyz> well the file is ok, just: Warning: font render for ".pcf" already registered at priority 0, which means, that it has nice level 0 but not the instance of the xserver :(
[04:12] <Mithrandir> Diziet: recommend/suggest, obviously.
[04:12] <Diziet> Well, possibly Suggest.
[04:12] <bob2> xyz: that still won't stop X working; also, #ubuntu
[04:12] <Diziet> But bash doesn't Recommend everything you might type at the command-line.
[04:12] <xyz> X works
[04:12] <xyz> running Xorg gives me an Xserver
[04:13] <bob2> also, #ubuntu
[04:13] <Mithrandir> Diziet: emacs is providing a bit more hooks for calling external stuff than bash does, though.
[04:13] <xyz> but gdm uses startx, also other scripts use startx
[04:13] <Diziet> Yes, but by and large it's little more than hooks.
[04:13] <xyz> and using startx I always get nice level issues
[04:13] <ogra> xyz, please thake that to #ubuntu
[04:13] <Diziet> In the days before the magic wm automagic menu systems, we didn't have wms Suggest every program you might invoke from a menu.
[04:13] <xyz> I'm on #ubuntu and there's no one, who can answer me that
[04:13] <marcin_ant> Diziet: but mldonkey-gui suggests mldonkey-server - right?
[04:14] <marcin_ant> Diziet: if flyspell.el is frontend to ispell it should suggest it
[04:14] <Mithrandir> Diziet: if the list gets too big, it should be trimmed, but I don't see it as a problem if we have a bunch of suggests in there.
[04:14] <marcin_ant> Diziet: the only problem is that emacs could be in fact standalone desktop environment
[04:14] <Diziet> marcin_ant: flyspell.el isn't a package.
[04:15] <marcin_ant> Diziet: and the list of recommended/suggested packages can be huge
[04:15] <marcin_ant> Diziet: it's part of emacs
[04:15] <Diziet> mithrandir: I think the situation is exactly analogous to a wm menu.
[04:15] <Diziet> marcin_ant: Yes, but your statement doesn't hold true any more if we s/flyspell/emacs/ because `emacs is a frontend to ispell' isn't correct.
[04:15] <marcin_ant> Diziet: so if emacs with flyspell is frontend to ispell then there should be some kind of dependency between emacs and ispell
[04:16] <Diziet> can be huge> Um, there are costs to big suggests/recommends lists.  They should be avoided.
[04:16] <Diziet> `emacs with flyspell is frontend to ispell' is not a correct statement.
[04:16] <Diziet> Because it's lots of other things too.
[04:16] <Diziet> I agree that a package whose primary function was to be a frontend to ispell should Depend on ispell.
[04:17] <marcin_ant> Diziet: following your way - xmms is not frontend to mp3
[04:17] <Mithrandir> Diziet: it's much easier to sanely debate that once we actually have a list of suggested changes rather than "the list is going to be too big", "no, it won't", "yes, it will", "no, it won't".
[04:17] <Diziet> A package which has being a frontend to ispell as an important but not wholly critical part of its function should Recommend.
[04:18] <Mithrandir> once we have a list, it can be debated sanely, adjusted, trimmed and so on.
[04:18] <Diziet> A package which has being a frontend to ispell as a significant feature, compared to its other functions, should Suggest.
[04:18] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: good point
[04:18] <Diziet> But being a frontend to ispell is not, given all of the other things that Emacs does, significant.
[04:18] <marcin_ant> Diziet: ispell is just first example 'from the hat'
[04:19] <Diziet> mithrandir: I'm not saying the list will be too long.  My arguments work even if the list of spurious dependencies is fairly short.  But someone said that length didn't matter, which isn't true.
[04:19] <Diziet> marciln_ant: Indeed.
[04:20] <Mithrandir> Diziet: you appear to be arguing that any extra Recommends/Suggests added to emacs21 based on a review will be spurious and you appear to be really busy digging yourself a nice trench.  Mind coming out of it and be a bit constructive?
[04:21] <Mithrandir> (I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying the direction the discussion is moving is silly, pointless and unproductive)
[04:21] <marcin_ant> Diziet: is ange-ftp and ftp dependency something better than ispell?
[04:22] <Diziet> mithrandir: I'm just talking about ispell, because that was our example.
[04:22] <marcin_ant> or tramp which is standalone package for emacs21 (bundled in emacs-snapshot)
[04:22] <Diziet> And how is saying I don't think dependencies should be added unconstructive ?  It's not unconstructive to say that the current situation is correct, any more than it's unconstructive to argue in favour of changing it.
[04:22] <xyz> so gys
[04:22] <marcin_ant> and in tramp package (standalone) you got suggestions for ssh|telnet|etc
[04:22] <xyz> *guys
[04:23] <xyz> I still don't get an answer on #ubuntu
[04:23] <Mithrandir> Diziet: you're whacking away at the example rather than what it examplifies.
[04:23] <xyz> would be really nice to hear from you developers
[04:23] <Mithrandir> xyz: this still isn't a support channel.
[04:23] <xyz> how to fix it
[04:23] <marcin_ant> while if tramp gets bundled with emacs22 there is no word about these dependencies
[04:23] <Diziet> marcin_ant: ange-ftp (bundled) should not cause a mention of ftp in the emacs control file.
[04:23] <xyz> well
[04:23] <xyz> apt-get dist-upgrade should work
[04:23] <Diziet> tramp (standalone) should probably Recommend ssh or whatever the preferred transport is.
[04:23] <xyz> so, you're responsible that it works
[04:23] <xyz> and it messed everything up
[04:23] <Keybuk> xyz: this is not a support channel, please take it to #ubuntu
[04:23] <ogra> xyz, this is still no support channel
[04:24] <Keybuk> this is also not a channel for harassing developers on
[04:24] <xyz> you just really suck
[04:24] <xyz> ppl
[04:24] <Diziet> Do we have a chop here ?
[04:24] <marcin_ant> xyz: you can pay me for my time then I'll support you 
[04:24] <Keybuk> if you have a bug, please file it in bugzilla (http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/) -- if you have a support question, please ask on #ubuntu or on the ubuntu forums (www.ubuntuforums.org)
[04:25] <marcin_ant> xyz: and then I won't 'suck' anymore
[04:25] <ogra> or ask on the ubuntu-users mailing list :)
[04:25] <xyz> you suck your moma
[04:25] <Keybuk> 12?
[04:26] <marcin_ant> or give someone few bucks for support 
[04:26] <marcin_ant> (it's best option while every linux guru needs money ;) )
[04:26] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: propably 8 or less
[04:27] <Diziet> Obviously we don't have a chanop.
[04:27] <marcin_ant> Diziet: so you said that tramp standalone should recommend some packages
[04:27] <Diziet> Yep.
[04:27] <Diziet> Right.  Next time I'll act out my anger :-).
[04:27] <marcin_ant> Diziet: so what about tramp bundled with emacs22 ?
[04:27] <Diziet> marcin_ant: Nope, no dependencies.
[04:28] <Diziet> That's because when the user says to install tramp as a standalone package we know they want those features.
[04:28] <Diziet> But when they say to install emacs it's probably just that they wanted to edit stuff.
[04:29] <zakame> emacs!!!
[04:29] <Keybuk> I prefer emacs-nox
[04:30] <Keybuk> I'd install emacs-furling, but nobody's seen it
[04:30] <zakame> why isn't emacs in the cd by default? :(
[04:30] <Keybuk> zakame: it's more of a developer's IDE than a simple editor -- and as we don't provide development tools by default, it didn't belong
[04:30] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: furling?
[04:31] <ogra> ln -s /usr/bin/gedit /usr/bin/emacs ;)
[04:31] <Mithrandir> ogra: gedit's mail client sucks
[04:31] <Keybuk> ogra: tsk, they aren't anywhere near functionally equivalent
[04:31] <TiMiDo> bla
[04:31] <zakame> Keybuk: ah
[04:31] <ogra> Keybuk, gedit is more usable, from a vim users POV ;)
[04:32] <Keybuk> zakame: we used to ship it on the CD (but not install it by default), but we ran out of room
[04:32] <zakame> Keybuk: yes, it was in warty and hoary
[04:33] <ogra> Keybuk, i'm always going mad if i have to use emacs without the keyboard shortcut poster handy :)
[04:33] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: you should remove some crap from emacs/etc (condom.1 files etc.)
[04:33] <Keybuk> ogra: my fingers know the shortcuts I use
[04:33] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: then it could fit ;)
[04:33] <ogra> Keybuk, mine always use vim shortcuts ;)
[04:33] <zakame> ogra: try it with dvorak ;)
[04:33] <Keybuk> marcin_ant: you miss the point ... the problem is that desktop almost doesn't fit on the CD anymore :) 
[04:34] <ogra> zakame, that fixes the shortcuts ? 
[04:34] <Keybuk> and C-c ^ n, C-c ^ m, C-c ^ o
[04:34] <Keybuk> I like those ones
[04:34] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: remove desktop put emacs + ratpoison | ion3 ;) 
[04:34] <zakame> ogra: somehow :)
[04:34] <ogra> heh
[04:34] <Mithrandir> ogra: just use viper-mode, then.
[04:34] <Keybuk> marcin_ant: and how long have you been off your medication?
[04:34] <zakame> marcin_ant: I was on that setup, on sid :)
[04:34] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: ;)
[04:35] <ogra> Mithrandir, why ? i'm happy with vim and gvim as is :)
[04:35] <ogra> and its a lot smaller :)
[04:35] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: whooo C-x 4 a is pretty impressive I didn't know about this shortcut
[04:35] <Mithrandir> ogra: because emacs21 rocks.
[04:35] <Keybuk> marcin_ant: yeah, it's dead handy -- though sometimes it mis-guesses what function you're in
[04:36] <zakame> Mithrandir: w00t!
[04:36] <marcin_ant> Mithrandir: emacs22 rocks even more
[04:36] <Keybuk> C-c ^ n/m/o/a are used when in smerge-mode ... they allow you to move between <<<</>>>>> bits and pick which one you want
[04:36] <zakame> Keybuk: yeah ChangLog mode!
[04:36] <Keybuk> I haven't used emacs22 yet
[04:36] <Keybuk> what's new?
[04:37] <Diziet> Have they finally arranged it so we can not have `fringes' in X ?
[04:37] <zakame> Keybuk: gtk2 for one
[04:37] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: support for gtk2...
[04:37] <Keybuk> does it have _proper_ GTK+ 2 support?
[04:37] <Keybuk> or is it still using it's own stupid font renderer?
[04:37] <Keybuk> I'll switch _IF_ it uses Pango
[04:38] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: they propably won't use Pango
[04:38] <zakame> Keybuk: hmmm, haven't noticed, I'm on xfonts-terminus ;)
[04:38] <Keybuk> I still use emacs in a gnome-terminal, because it just looks so much smoother
[04:39] <marcin_ant> Keybuk: emacs-gtk is not much different than emacs-x11(athena) I just like these gtk scrollbars
[04:39] <bob2> mjg59: ps sleep works again now, and is a jillion times quicker than in hoary.
[04:39] <mjg59> Hurrah
[04:40] <marcin_ant> btw guys is there any new repository for dapper?
[04:40] <bob2> as scary as the vertical green lines are during resume
[04:40] <mjg59> marcin_ant: It'll be in the topic when there is
[04:40] <Keybuk> next week sometime
[04:40] <marcin_ant> mjg59: ok - thx
[04:40] <zakame> ah, good :D
[04:42] <pitti> mvo: cool, the python devs fixed the tarfile bug I showed you yesterday
[04:42] <Mithrandir> ogra: *shrug*, you are of course aware that vim is about half the size of emacs21?  And includes way less extra tools, so it would just need those to go into the same size as emacs21.
[04:42] <mvo> pitti: cool! they are quick
[04:42] <ogra> Mithrandir, i need an editor, not fully equipped car garage :)
[04:43] <Mithrandir> ogra: I'm so going to write that mail reader for vim, just to prove its bloat once. :-P
[04:43] <ogra> lol
[04:43] <ogra> why should i read mails with an editor ? 
[04:44] <ogra> there is mutt and there is evo.... both work fine for me...
[04:44] <zakame> ogra: uhh, planning for one ;)
[04:44] <ogra> planning ? 
[04:45] <zakame> ogra: planner-el integrates to gnus and makes blogging and wikis easy :)
[04:46] <zakame> the downside only is that I haven't finished migrating from my sid to breezy
[04:46] <zakame> my ~/.emacs, i mean
[04:46] <ogra> i'm fine with moins web inetrface and since i only blog every 6 months i'm, fine with monkey journal for blogging... no need to clutter my slim editor
[04:47] <ogra> )
[04:47] <ogra> :)
[04:48] <zakame> :) yeah... then again, I haven't blogged and planned myself lately...
[04:49] <ogra> heh
[05:03] <dholbach> re
[05:04] <Keybuk> hmm
[05:04] <Keybuk> I appear to have just found a box of warty CDs
[05:04] <Keybuk> anyone want them? :p
[05:04] <infinity> I have a stack of hoary CDs, I'll trade you.
[05:04] <infinity> I can sign them first, if you'd like.
[05:05] <Keybuk> heh
[05:05] <bddebian> Hello
[05:09] <omar__> I would just like to say great work with Breezy and I am so pleased with this distro, ubuntu all the way.
[05:12] <bddebian> Even though I have little to do with it, thanks omar__! :-)
[05:13] <omar__> its ok, I have been using it since 4.10 and it only gets better, fedora, suse, nothing else can compare
[05:34] <infinity> mvo : <ping>
[05:35] <mvo> infinity: pong
[05:36] <infinity> Why does apt-get still not have an option to do something like "apt-get build-dep foo.dsc"?
[05:36] <infinity> So I don't have to set up a source repo just to use build-dep.
[05:37] <azeem> same for install
[05:37] <infinity> install has a workaround.  "dpkg -i foo.deb && apt-get -f install"
[05:37] <mvo> azeem: install is being worked on
[05:37] <mvo> infinity: *evil*
[05:37] <infinity> The only workaround for build-dep is "parse dpkg-checkbuilddeps by hand"
[05:37] <infinity> Which sucks.
[05:38] <mvo> infinity: hm, no idea about this "apt-get build-dep foo.dsc". is there already a bug open aobut it?
[05:38] <infinity> mvo : I recall that mdz asked me, like 3 years ago "what would apt-get need to be able to do to replace build-dep handling in sbuild?"... That was one criteria. :)
[05:38] <infinity> Not sure if it ever got bugged.
[05:40] <infinity> Nope, looks like neither he nor I ever actually FILED the bug.  Go us.
[05:40] <infinity> mvo : Make it happen before UBZ, and I'll bring you some sort of fantastic gift from Australia.
[05:41] <mvo> infinity: that's tempting ;)
[06:09] <mdz> infinity: I read that as "I'll bring you some sort of fantastic girl from Australia"
[06:09] <infinity> mdz : That may be how he read it too, given his enthusiasm.
[06:10] <ogra> dont let his GF hear that :)
[06:11] <infinity> AIUI, Germans are a sexually open people...
[06:11] <ogra> heh
[06:11] <ogra> thats very age depending i guess 
[06:11] <bddebian> w00t can someone bring me an Aussie girl too? :-)
[06:12] <ogra> bddebian, do you come to UBZ ?
[06:12] <azeem> we won't tell your wife
[06:12] <dholbach> haha :)
[06:12] <bddebian> azeem: Exactly :-)
[06:12] <bddebian> ogra: No. :-(  My kids would never forgive me for skipping Halloween.
[06:13] <infinity> bddebian : You wouldn't be skipping it, just spending it with scarier monsters than usual.
[06:13] <ogra> *grin*
[06:13] <azeem> you could bring them along and let them play with elmo
[06:13] <bddebian> infinity: Heh
[06:13] <bddebian> azeem: Oh yea.. :-)
[06:13] <bddebian> My middle one sleeps with elmo every night ;-P
[06:14] <infinity> I'm disturbed.
[06:15] <bddebian> As well you should be :-)
[06:22] <jbailey> Ugh.  Two hangs in the last 12 hours.  /me wonders what he broke and how.
[06:23] <trulux> heya
[06:33] <ogra> is there any command like debconf-get-selections in the default install we ship ?
[06:34] <ogra> or any other way to get debconf values without installing additional packages ? 
[06:40] <Kamion> debconf-utils is in ship; you can do it with debconf-communicate if you must ...
[06:41] <Kamion> it's kinda tempting to promote debconf-utils to standard, since it's tiny and useful
[06:43] <ogra> soudns like
[06:44] <ogra> i have a nice patch that sets the X keymap automatically for ltsp clients based on the servers debconf value... but it uses debconf-get-selections for reading
[06:50] <Kamion> feel free to depend on debconf-utils for that; you should have the dependency anyway
[06:54] <ogra> Kamion, thanks
[06:55] <ogra> first i'll have to play with the patch a bit... on my laptop  debconf-get-selections | egrep 'xserver-.+/config/inputdevice/keyboard' gives me xserver-xfree86, xserver-xorg and xserver-xorg-dbg settings ... seems the values stay on upgrades...
[06:58] <Kamion> ogra: if the package isn't purged or if the upgraded version doesn't db_unregister the old templates, yes
[06:59] <Kamion> (or if it fails to call db_purge on purge, I suppose)
[07:00] <ogra> ah, nice... we should make db_purge policy for -dbg packages then i think...
[07:00] <Kamion> er, dh_installdebconf already does it; practically everything that ships debconf templates uses dh_installdebconf
[07:00] <infinity> debconf-show is in the base system, but eww.
[07:00] <Kamion> I bet you just haven't purged the old packages
[07:01] <infinity> (debconf-show xserver-xorg | grep whatever | sed 'munge')
[07:01] <Kamion> should depend on debconf for that all the same
[07:02] <infinity> ltsp surely already depends on debconf for something..
[07:02] <Kamion> ogra: calling PURGE when your package is purged is already in the debconf specification (referenced from policy) btw
[07:02] <infinity> Or not.
[07:03] <ogra> infinity, cool, works and looks much cleaner
[07:04] <infinity> debconf-couumicate is cleaner still, though.
[07:04] <infinity> communicate, too.
[07:04] <Kamion> better to just source the debconf confmodule and use that
[07:04] <Kamion> debconf-communicate is for fairly special cases - manual use and some really weird stuff
[07:04] <ogra> Kamion, but i normally dont think about purge if i remove -dbg packages ... and they are seldom permanent on the system, so they should clean up afterwards by default
[07:04] <infinity> Assuming the postinst is otherwise debconf-clean (ie: no stdout or stderr output)
[07:04] <Kamion> (when sourcing the debconf confmodule is harmful, basically)
[07:05] <Kamion> ogra: no, debconf templates shouldn't be purged unless you're purging the package, sorry
[07:05] <Kamion> if you're messing about with other package's templates then you have to take account of this
[07:05] <ogra> so db_unregister ?
[07:05] <Kamion> no
[07:05] <Kamion> leave it alone :P
[07:05] <ogra> heh, k
[07:05] <Kamion> it would be really annoying if debconf templates were unregistered when you just removed a package
[07:06] <Kamion> because all the questions would be re-asked when you reinstalled
[07:06] <ogra> i talk about -dbg packages that are only used temporary
[07:06] <infinity> Same thing.
[07:06] <infinity> A package is a package, -dbg isn't a special case here.
[07:06] <infinity> If you don't want it hanging around, purge it.
[07:07] <ogra> but it leaves unneeded stuff behind
[07:07] <infinity> Kamion : Erm, debconf-communicate is in debconf now, not debconf-utils
[07:07] <Kamion> *only if you don't purge it*
[07:07] <Kamion> infinity: right, but debconf-get-selections isn't
[07:07] <ogra> yes 
[07:07] <infinity> Oh, right.  I was getting confused about which was being discussed where. :)
[07:07] <infinity> debconf-get-selections is vile for this sort of use anyway.
[07:08] <Kamion> by *definition*, packages leave bits of configuration behind when you remove them but don't purge them
[07:08] <infinity> No one wants the WHOLE db very often.
[07:08] <ogra> Kamion, the original patch is from pere, i thought i could trust his debconf skills ...
[07:08] <infinity> ogra : That's what "remove" and "purge" in dpkg mean.  "remove" is "remove everything but the configuration", "purge" is "remove + take out the configs"
[07:09] <Kamion> ogra: perhaps he didn't try it with lots of xserver-* installed; I strongly suspect he didn't in fact
[07:09] <ogra> infinity, imho -dbg packages are a special case because i only use them for debugging
[07:09] <ogra> Kamion, yes, i think he only has one :)
[07:09] <Kamion> anyway, the ltsp code should be fixed
[07:09] <infinity> ogra : I install a lot of stuff only for debugging (or package build-deps), and then remove them later.  But I always purge. :)
[07:09] <Kamion> or the patch, whatever
[07:10] <ogra> yes, the patch
[07:10] <infinity> ogra : Just learn to love the purge, and you'll be fine.
[07:10] <ogra> the code doesnt have keymap detection yet 
[07:10] <ogra> i'll try to get used to it :) thanks for all the help
[07:11] <infinity> When I first started using Debian, I didn't really understand the difference, but got into the habit of always purging for aesthetic reasons.
[07:11] <infinity> (Underscores are prettier in dselect than dashes)
[07:11] <ogra> heh
[07:12] <Kamion> infinity: heh, absolutely
[07:13] <slomo> hm, does someone know what to do with already fixed CVE in LP? this one was fixed weeks ago: https://launchpad.net/malone/cve/2005-2718
[07:15] <Kamion> slomo: I don't think the CVE itself ought to get closed; if there was an associated task to fix it in Ubuntu, *that* should get closed
[07:16] <infinity> A way to add a reference either to the -changes post that fixed it, or the USN that did so would be nice.
[07:16] <slomo> Kamion: ok... there never was one... but pitti's tool thinks it is still unresolved: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/ubuntu-cve/unfixed.html
[07:17] <infinity> slomo : pitti's tool parses changelogs.  If the CVE isn't mentioned in the mplayer changelog, it's considered vulnerable unless he adds a manual override.
[07:17] <slomo> infinity: ok, i'll tell him... there was no CVE at the time I fixed it ;)
[07:18] <infinity> slomo : Did you fix it in all releases?
[07:19] <slomo> infinity: only for breezy... shall i take care of it for warty and hoary?
[07:19] <infinity> slomo : Yes, if you have an isolated patch for it that you can easily backport.
[07:21] <slomo> infinity: if it applies cleanly or can be easily backported to the old versions... yes... is pitti the one to talk to when i've fixed packages?
[07:22] <infinity> slomo : Yes.
[07:22] <infinity> slomo : I can review the debdiff for you and probably give you an okay to upload if it looks sane, but ultimately he's the one who will need to release the final packages to the archive.
[07:23] <slomo> infinity: ok, i'll prepare the debdiffs at the weekend... i don't have any time for it before... what would the version numbers be?
[07:25] <infinity> Erm.  Nothing, it looks like.  <scratch head>
[07:25] <infinity> Maybe we didn't have mplayer in hoary or warty.
[07:25] <infinity> I don't see it. :)
[07:25] <infinity> Oh, nevermind.  Just didn't have the metapackage.
[07:25] <slomo> we had 1.0-pre5-0.6ubuntu1 in warty and 1.0-pre6-0.3ubuntu6 in hoary
[07:25] <slomo> ok ;)
[07:25] <infinity> Okay, so for hoary, we have "1:1.0-pre6-0.3ubuntu6".  Make yours "1:1.0-pre6-0.3ubuntu6.1"
[07:26] <infinity> And the same .1 on the end of the warty version.
[07:26] <infinity> And ignore lintian when it tells you that's a binNMU version.  <smirk>
[07:27] <pef> Kamion: hello, can I bother you a few minutes ? :] 
[07:28] <slomo> infinity: ok, thanks :) i'll talk to you or pitti at the weekend
[07:28] <Kinnison> ciao
[07:37] <pef> Kamion: can you have a look at malone #2018 ? a debdiff is waiting you ;) thanks !
[07:39] <ogra> pef, i doubt he will upload motu stuff, you should ask him if the debdiff is ok for -updates 
[07:39] <ogra> gah... missed that he left
[07:45] <TMM> lol "topic will be changed when dapper opens"
[07:45] <TMM> great ;)
[07:48] <Keybuk> TMM: no ice cream for you
[07:48] <TMM> awww
[07:48] <TMM> again?
[07:49] <TMM> not even one spoon?
[07:51] <ogra> TMM, not even a glance into the box
[07:53] <siretart> hrhr
[07:59] <HiddenWolf> OMFG. :)
[07:59] <TMM> ogra, wheeeee... what did I do???? 
[08:00] <ogra> TMM, moaning about dapper :)
[08:01] <TMM> ogra, I was complimenting the great channel title
[08:01] <TMM> ogra, can I have ice now? 
[08:01] <ogra> no
[08:02] <ogra> simply because i have none here... its getting autumn in germany... nobody eats icecream
[08:04] <Kamion> ogra: and it's not ok for -updates, changes random packaging bits totally unnecessarily, like debian/watch
[08:05] <ogra> Kamion, the package doesnt work at all, these four lines in the code make it work... i admit the menu change and debian/watch wouldnt be necessary
[08:06] <ogra> i'll tell him to change that back if he comes around again
[08:07] <ogra> oh, sorry, 6 lines
[08:12] <Kamion> ogra: yes, I mean the extra changes unrelated to the bug
[08:12] <Kamion> changes to be considered for -updates should only fix the issue in question, not muck about with other stuff
[08:12] <ogra> yup
[08:54] <da_bon_bon> how do i see all the patches and fixes that ubuntu applies to a particular package ? 
[08:55] <ogra> mdz, we really should remove ltspadmin and friends asap... i had a lot of unnecessary support for people who use it on breezy ltsp already
[08:55] <ogra> (and break their working install with it)
[08:56] <mdz> ogra: we shouldn't remove them; using ltsp 4.1 on ubuntu is a valid use case
[08:56] <da_bon_bon> how about ubuntu using suspend2 instead of swsusp ?
[08:56] <mdz> I have removed the dependencies in baz
[08:56] <ogra> mdz, but mixing them breaks totally...
[08:56] <da_bon_bon> its more configurable, and works.
[08:57] <ogra> da_bon_bon, we only accept patches that are likely to be accepted upstream
[08:57] <ogra> swsusp2 isnt among them
[08:57] <da_bon_bon> ogra: but swsusp is really buggy.
[08:58] <da_bon_bon> why not move over to a nicer interface ?
[08:58] <ogra> da_bon_bon, file a bug
[08:58] <da_bon_bon> :)
[08:58] <ogra> so it will get better
[08:58] <da_bon_bon> a bug ? Move to suspend2
[08:58] <da_bon_bon> it just doesnt work.
[08:58] <ogra> a bug about swsusp
[08:58] <ogra> works fine for me ...
[08:58] <da_bon_bon> for people ho donot use acpi, its bad
[08:59] <da_bon_bon> wont ever know when to switch off the pc.
[09:00] <da_bon_bon> and, suspend2 has already been submitted for peer review.
[09:00] <mdz> da_bon_bon: this has been discussed already; should be in the mailing list archives
[09:00] <da_bon_bon> mdz: if possible, can you tell me the final views ? i am not subscribed to the devel list.
[09:01] <mdz> da_bon_bon: you don't need to be subscribed; the list archives are on the web and searchable (the discussion was several weeks ago at least)
[09:01] <da_bon_bon> uh..
[09:01] <da_bon_bon> ok
[09:02] <mdz> da_bon_bon: iirc, the issue was that the patch is very invasive and conflicts with others that are more important to us
[09:02] <da_bon_bon> oh, ok.
[09:03] <da_bon_bon> maybe i will need  to compile my own kernel on dapper too :)
[09:04] <mdz> to each his own
[09:04] <da_bon_bon> yes. but i suppose not many people compile kernels on ubuntu .. it just works :)
[09:05] <da_bon_bon> anyway, swsusp -- why is the screen blanked /
[09:05] <da_bon_bon> why not leave the screen on ?
[09:05] <da_bon_bon> that way, people not using acpi know when to switch of the pc.
[09:45] <lucas> hi
[09:45] <lucas> are dist-upgrades from debian sarge to ubuntu breezy working ? supported ? tested ?
[09:51] <HiddenWolf> lucas, working, might be, supported/tested, hell no.
[09:51] <lucas> ok
[09:51] <lucas> thanks
[09:51] <HiddenWolf> lucas, debian is not ubuntu, and ubuntu isn't debian. :)
[09:52] <HiddenWolf> lucas, you can try it, but be sure to have plenty of backups.
[09:52] <lucas> yup, but I thought that would be a bonus of the "we don't want to diverge from debian" part ;)
[09:57] <lamont> so lets say I'm silly enough to have a laptop that has a sound card that is only supported by OSS, not alsa... how screwed am I?
[09:58] <ogra> lucas, sarge -< breezy was tested afaik
[09:59] <lucas> lamont: you are not, I was in the same situation
[09:59] <ogra> erm s/-</->/
[09:59] <jbailey> lamont: For dapper, not very.  A few minutes after dapper gets released, probably very.
[10:00] <lucas> ogra: oh ok
[10:00] <lamont> jbailey: so what do I need to enable to get oss happy?
[10:00] <lamont> istr we blacklisted all of oss...
[10:01] <ogra> lucas, but it needs to be a really clean sarge ... no other repos etc
[10:01] <jbailey> lamont: Just add the modules to /etc/modules if you want minimal hacking.
[10:01] <lamont> righto
[10:10] <lucas> I'm interested in MOTU, but I haven't had time to read the whole thread about dapper drake RM
[10:10] <lucas> was MOTU mentionned ?
[10:12] <jbailey> lamont: Spend your days writing and alsa driver? =)
[10:13] <jbailey> lamont: Honestly, since we're doing dmix and all that now, oss-only drivers days are generally numbered.
[10:13] <jbailey> lamont: It's probably not worth hacking it so that anything supports oss more easily.
[10:13] <lamont> jbailey: right.
[10:14] <ogra> lucas, if universe was mentioned, it would affect MOTU (without being mentioned)
[10:14] <ogra> lucas, if youre intersted come to #ubuntu-motu
[10:15] <dholbach> ogra: he's one of the MOTURuby types, so i guess he knows where to go :))))
[10:15] <dholbach> YAY Lucas! :)
[10:16] <ogra> oh, ok
[10:16] <ogra> didnt know that
[10:18] <jbailey> lamont: IIRC, http://www.alsa-project.org/ had some porting instructions.
[10:18] <lucas> Riddell: please don't, I'm a gnome user and use ruby mainly for developping
[10:18] <jbailey> I looked at it briefly this summer for the Mac G5 sound driver, but someone beat me to it.
[10:18] <lucas> I don't use many ruby apps except those I develop myself
[10:18] <lamont> mind you, adding the oss driver does not produce love either
[10:40] <Kamion> wikipedia lists dopping, plump, paddling, flush, raft, team
[10:40] <zyga> Kamion: ?
[10:40] <Kamion> zyga: beta CD release names
[10:40] <Kamion> I think I like raft best out of those
[10:40] <zyga> Kamion: :-[)}
[10:40] <zyga> beta cd of what?
[10:40] <Kamion> dapper
[10:41] <Kamion> y'know, sounder of warthogs, array of hedgehogs, colony of badgers, ...
[10:41] <jdub> raft! :)
[10:41] <zyga> flock of doppings?
[10:41] <zyga> flocky dopping
[10:41] <zyga> eh ;] 
[10:41] <jdub> Kamion: yeha, i like raft - are there no specific ones for draks?
[10:42] <zyga> Kamion: why ducks in particular?
[10:42] <Kamion> dopping is a bit obscure I think - it refers to ducks while diving apparently
[10:42] <jdub> zyga: a drake is a kind of duck
[10:42] <zyga> jdub: ah
[10:42] <zyga> the new words I learn with ubuntu releases :-)
[10:42] <Kamion> it's just a male duck AFAIK
[10:43] <Kamion> wikipedia agrees
[10:43] <jdub> yeah, it is
[10:43] <zyga> nifty nipper
[10:43] <zyga> sounds cool
[10:43] <lamont> Kamion: "male" is a kind of duck. :-)
[10:43] <zyga> and nipper is an animal too
[10:43] <lamont> Kamion: raft seems to be the winner
[10:43] <Kamion> jdub: haven't found anything specific for drakes, no; you don't often find collective nouns for gender-specific words
[10:44] <jdub> Kamion: there's always the drake-as-dragon option
[10:44] <jdub> but seems we're definitely ducky
[10:44] <zyga> jdub: mandivia has drakes
[10:44] <jbailey> LotR characters? =)
[10:44] <Kamion> raft is apparently "while idle in water"
[10:45] <jdub> Kamion: hrm, idle isn't a great message (not that too many people will research this and analyse it)
[10:46] <Kamion> jdub: dragons would give us flight, weyr, wing
[10:46] <Kamion> which are admittedly cool, but as you say I thought it was meant to be a duck
[10:46] <jdub> sabdfl has said as much
[10:47] <lamont> flush 1 just sounds, um...., yeah.
[10:47] <jdub> heh
[10:47] <jdub> nice way to release ;)
[10:47] <jbailey> Kamion: Could be the sounds that ducks make in different languages.
[10:47] <jbailey> Wow, the f and d are *way* too close together.
[10:47] <bddebian> coin
[10:47] <bddebian> quack
[10:47] <Kamion> wow, http://www.nzbirds.com/more/nounsd.html has billions of duck nouns
[10:47] <lamont> what does 'team' refer to?
[10:47] <Kamion> badelynge
[10:48] <Kamion> lamont: "in flight" per http://www.vigay.com/nouns/birds.html
[10:48] <Kamion> "Team CD 1" just seems a bit anonymous
[10:48] <Kamion> "a flight of ducks" seems possible
[10:49] <zyga> Kamion: how about a word that ordinary non native speaker will understand?
[10:49] <lamont> Bed 1?
[10:49] <lamont> zyga: that'd be cheating
[10:49] <Kamion> or just "flock", but I don't want to use that before I have to
[10:49] <jbailey> lamont: That's certainly not for the "duck" release. =)
[10:49] <Kamion> zyga: we haven't done that so far
[10:49] <lamont> little knob 1?
[10:49] <jdub> zyga: most native english speakers don't understand these words
[10:50] <Kamion> I see no reason to start now - it's pretty much impossible to do plays on words in a way that everyone will understand
[10:50] <Kamion> and yet plays on words are fun
[10:50] <zyga> lamont, Kamion: how about putting some furigana
[10:50] <lamont> ooohhh!  Kamion limiting yourself to 7-bit ascii is just so, um, limiting.
[10:51] <lamont> skein 1 makes me think of yarns
[10:51] <lamont> Kamion: you could always go with 'goose N'. :-)
[10:51] <lamont> flight is certainly better than flock.
[10:52] <zyga> lamont: hairy herd
[10:52] <lamont> I know after hunting for a day, "handful" is a collective noun for ducks.
[10:52] <jdub> ew
[10:57] <lamont> jdub: not 'ew'.  'yum.'
[10:57] <lamont> then again, those ducks aren't very dapper.
[11:10] <whiprush> Kamion: it's a Paddle of Ducks.
[11:10] <whiprush> I looked it up a few days ago
[11:10] <HiddenWolf> Oh My
[11:10] <HiddenWolf> We're going to have Ubuntu Paddle releases
[11:11] <HiddenWolf>  /. headline: Ubuntu likes to be paddled
[11:34] <mpt> oh, damn, that's doves
[11:36] <mpt> http://everything2.com/?node=badelynge
[11:40] <ajmitch> morning
[11:41] <Nafallo> sounder, array, colony, paddle :-)
[11:41] <Nafallo> sounds nice :-)
[11:44] <HiddenWolf> Nafallo, lol