[12:02] <sivang> ogra: well, I hope to attend the Edubuntu BOFs. There is actually a very big demand for it here in .IL, would be nice for them to have someone close to the project leader ;)
[12:03] <sivang> tseng: Brandon!
[12:06] <sistpoty> rs
[12:06] <sistpoty> re even
[12:18] <alexr> Hi! Can anybody help me with the question about modifying breezy install CD?
[12:20] <TiMiDo> ok I'm here
[12:20] <alexr> I tried adding some packages and remastering CD.
[12:20] <crimsun> Lathiat: RE: .desktop, send upstream according to seb
[12:21] <crimsun> Lathiat: that way neither Debian nor we have to worry about it
[12:21] <Lathiat> crimsun: ok
[12:21] <Lathiat> hrm
[12:21] <alexr> TiMiDo: Sorry, were you talking to me?
[12:21] <Lathiat> so debian dont want them?
[12:21] <TiMiDo> not really
[12:21] <Lathiat> what about cases of unmaintained software etc?
[12:21] <alexr> OK :-)
[12:21] <Lathiat> i made chat with seb
[12:22] <crimsun> Lathiat: our first choice should be upstream for sending .desktop
[12:22] <Lathiat> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/HowToPatch <-- draft, feel free to edit
[12:22] <bddebian> Heya tritium
[12:22] <crimsun> Lathiat: if that fails, then yeah, Debian.
[12:22] <tritium> hello
[12:22] <crimsun> hi
[12:22] <bddebian> Heya crimsun
[12:22] <crimsun> 'lo
[12:22] <tseng> hm good one
[12:23] <Lathiat> tseng: more of a
[12:23] <Lathiat> what to do when merging
[12:23] <Lathiat> watch foro deprecated patches
[12:23] <Lathiat> try drop the need to merege all together
[12:23] <Lathiat> fix up the broken dpatch integrations
[12:23] <Lathiat> send patches to debian and/or upstream
[12:23] <tseng> i memorize all my changes
[12:23] <tseng> and manually reapply them on top of the latest debian revision
[12:24] <tseng> sounds crazy, I know
[12:24] <Lathiat> eh
[12:24] <Lathiat> heh
[12:24] <Lathiat> sounds like the kind of thing i do
[12:24] <Lathiat> i have a habit of retyping things
[12:24] <Lathiat> when i could just copy and paste them or something and change a few things
[12:27] <ajmitch> ok, finally at work
[12:27] <ajmitch> only 11:30am ;)
[12:27] <Lathiat> ajmitch: heh
[12:28] <ajmitch> Lathiat: basically automated checking, based on binary/source already in dapper
[12:29] <ajmitch> so that it can track unmet dependencies, and if someone uploads a package to revu it can check if the unmet deps are satisfied
[12:29] <sistpoty> ajmitch++ :)
[12:30] <bddebian> Yeah ajmitch, get to work ;-P
[12:30] <ajmitch> sistpoty: basically I'd have the whole apt binary & source list in postgresql & I've got part of a dependency resolver to work it out
[12:30] <ajmitch> so I could make unmet deps lists for each arch, and the apt cache can be used for plenty of other things
[12:31] <ajmitch> bddebian: I will, don't worry ;)
[12:31] <sistpoty> ajmitch: sounds great... revu1/2 is using pg as well, so this shouldn't be too hard to get into revu2
[12:31] <ajmitch> sistpoty: and then we get data from launchpad as well :)
[12:31] <sistpoty> hehe
[12:31] <ajmitch> sistpoty: that's why I suggested postgres
[12:32] <siretart> ajmitch: sistpoty I'm sorry that I'm too tired for real discussion now, but how do you think about an upgrade to breezy for tiber?
[12:32] <ajmitch> siretart: ++
[12:32] <sistpoty> siretart++
[12:32] <ajmitch> we know breezy inside out by now ;)
[12:32] <siretart> hrhr
[12:33] <ajmitch> pg 8.0?
[12:33] <sistpoty> siretart: I read the specs for revu2... sounds good... but i'm a little tired for discussion right now as well *g*
[12:33] <siretart> sistpoty: are there trouble expected with postgres upgrade?
[12:33] <sistpoty> siretart: nope... i have revu1 running in sid with 8.0
[12:33] <siretart> sistpoty: how about a sqlite backend for revu2?
[12:33] <siretart> sistpoty: great.
[12:34] <ajmitch> why sqlite?
[12:34] <ajmitch> I thought of that on the way to work as well (sqlite)
[12:34] <siretart> ajmitch: it is easier to administer
[12:34] <ajmitch> but less powerful
[12:34] <siretart> this is the part i'm not sure yet
[12:34] <siretart> what features would we miss from postgres?
[12:34] <ajmitch> I might want a few postgres features
[12:34] <sistpoty> and revu1/2 already uses postgres-specifics for some things :(
[12:34] <ajmitch> not sure yet
[12:34] <siretart> sistpoty: which ones?
[12:35] <sistpoty> siretart: i don't know what sqlite can do... but postgres is pretty good sql-standard so that would be a + for postgres
[12:35] <dholbach> good night
[12:35] <sistpoty> gn8 dholbach
[12:35] <ajmitch> night dholbach
[12:35] <siretart> gn8 daniel!
[12:35] <sistpoty> (and i'm quite familiar with postgres *g*)
[12:35] <ajmitch> sistpoty: great :)
[12:36] <siretart> sistpoty: perhaps we should have a meeting and discussing postgres vs sqlite
[12:36] <siretart> well, okay, I see, we are on postgres :)
[12:36] <sistpoty> sure... we should meet anyway  ;)
[12:36] <siretart> sistpoty: when will you come next to uni?
[12:36] <Lathiat> activerecord and ruby!
[12:37] <ajmitch> Lathiat: don't be sick
[12:37] <Lathiat> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/HowToMerge
[12:37] <Lathiat> ajmitch: dont you be sick!
[12:37] <sistpoty> siretart: imo compiler construction 3 starts next tuesday...?
[12:37] <ajmitch> Lathiat: intercal 4 life!
[12:37] <Lathiat> compielr construction?
[12:37] <siretart> sistpoty: next monday.
[12:37] <Lathiat> ajmitch: heh
[12:37] <siretart> sistpoty: and this weekend is invasion! :)
[12:37] <sistpoty> siretart: hehe... ok, then I'll be there next monday
[12:37] <ajmitch> Lathiat: I'll try & get my merge stuff done asap
[12:37] <ajmitch> to make it easier on people
[12:38] <sistpoty> gna... got pretty heavy workload this week/weekend :(
[12:38] <siretart> oh :(
[12:38] <siretart> well okay, well see on monday then.
[12:38] <sistpoty> gn8 siretart
[12:38] <Lathiat> also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/HowTopatch
[12:38] <Lathiat> feel free to edit, etc
[12:38] <Lathiat> also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/HowToPatch, rather
[12:39] <Lathiat> i've put down what i know
[12:39] <siretart> gn8 folks
[12:39] <Lathiat> HowTomerge coudl do with extra transition info
[12:39] <ajmitch> night siretart
[12:39] <Lathiat> and ogra and ajmtich and stuff shoudl probably look over HowToPatch
[12:39] <ajmitch> Lathiat: will do
[12:40] <ogra> will do..
[12:42] <sistpoty> gn8
[12:42] <Lathiat> and its time for me to sleep
[12:42] <Lathiat> night all
[12:42] <Lathiat> or morning i should say
[12:46] <Loiosh> Good day all
[12:57] <bddebian> Later folks
[12:57] <LaserJock> MOTUs: ok, I made a wiki page for documentation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUDocIdeas
[12:58] <bddebian> LaserJock: Cool, I'll check it out
[01:04] <ajmitch> LaserJock: looks good
[01:04] <ajmitch> most of the 'Process' section will be obsolete now
[01:06] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yea, now that I have them organized, I am going to go back through and mark obsolete ones
[01:08] <LaserJock> although, I think it would be nice to have a general Todo wiki to have one place to see where/what things are going on
[01:09] <ajmitch> yep
[01:11] <LaserJock> ok, I gotta go for now, but I will work some more on it
[01:21] <ogra> HowToPatch looks fine despite the typos
[01:23] <schweeb_> howdy ogra
[01:24] <ogra> hey schweeb_
[02:18] <TiMiDo> ok i"m back
[02:22] <schweeb_> ogra: any work to be done yet?  I recently developed a bit of free time :)
[03:05] <marcin_ant> hi all
[03:05] <marcin_ant> could someone talk with me about emacs packages?
[03:26] <LaserJock> is there a difference between a reviewer and a uploader on REVU?
[03:26] <ajmitch> yes
[03:27] <ajmitch> reviewer can advocate packages for upload to ubuntu
[03:27] <LaserJock> ajmitch: is there a difference in requirements? Can anybody be a reviewer?
[03:27] <ajmitch> MOTUs can
[03:27] <LaserJock> but anybody can be an uploader?
[03:28] <ajmitch> yes
[03:28] <ajmitch> that's the intent
[03:28] <LaserJock> ok, thanks for clarifying that
[03:29] <LaserJock> It doesn't really say that on wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU though
[03:30] <ajmitch> then it's another page to fix :)
[03:30] <LaserJock> lol, guess so
[03:33] <ajmitch> UniverseCandidates needs to be more prominent
[03:34] <ajmitch> I just saw someone adding package requests to the goal section of the DapperDrake page
[03:34] <LaserJock> yeah, there were a couple of pages that I had never seen before
[03:38] <ajmitch> LaserJock: maybe link to some of the orphaned MOTU pages on here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrphanedPages
[03:38] <ajmitch> the /talk pages generally aren't as useful
[03:45] <LaserJock> lol, I just found BddebianIsAGod
[03:46] <ajmitch> yep
[03:46] <LaserJock> I was thinking of doing that ;-)
[03:48] <ajmitch> I wish Trashcan would fix his client/computer/network.. :)
[03:48] <Trashcan> me too
[03:48] <ajmitch> Trashcan: connectivity issues?
[03:48] <Trashcan> yup
[03:49] <Trashcan> connection going bonkers, dunno why :o
[03:49] <Trashcan> might be storms
[03:52] <Trashcan> should be better :)
[04:06] <Kyral> mmm
[04:06] <Kyral> Final Fantasy Advent Children is really good so far :D
[04:07] <crimsun> the trailer looked mildly entertaining
[04:07] <Kyral> Subtitled :D
[04:07] <bur[n] er> i haven't seen english subtitled even... only german and swedish
[04:07] <Kyral> AnimeYume
[04:07] <bur[n] er> i still watched about 20 minutes worth ;)
[05:02] <Kyral> Man that was good
[05:02] <Kyral> granted you have to have played through FF7 to understand half the stuff in it :P
[05:02] <Amaranth> what?
[05:03] <Kyral> Final Fantasy Advent Children :D
[05:05] <Kyral> I'm gonna go see it in theaters even though I just saw it. Its gonna be frickin' AWESOME with the big screen and the sound system!
[05:53] <jsgotangco> lol
[05:53] <jsgotangco> you got it from a torrent
[05:53] <jsgotangco> hehe
[05:57] <Kyral> yahso?
[05:57] <Kyral> Actually I didn't
[05:57] <Kyral> I got it from a friend who got it from a friend who got it from a torrent ;P
[06:02] <ajmitch> remember these channels are logged ;)
[06:04] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[06:04] <ajmitch> night bddebian
[06:14] <Kyral> bah ajmitch </late>
[06:14] <ajmitch> ?
[06:14] <Kyral> ajmitch remember these channels are logged ;)
[06:14] <ajmitch> yes?
[06:15] <Kyral> having to bring things such as "legality" into it ;P
[06:16] <ajmitch> all I did was remind you that channels are logged
[06:16] <Kyral> very heavily implied my friend ;P
[06:19] <Kyral> but in this case it most likely ends up in the movie companies favor, because now I really wanna see it in the theater (something I usually don't do)
[06:31] <Lathiat> lol
[06:33] <Kyral> Anyway. Bedtime
[06:34] <Kyral> I got bored and browsed SourceForge for games to package and I think I picked out some good ones....so thats what I'm gonna do tomarrow after homework
[06:38] <Lathiat> Kyral: cool :) check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUGames has links to game lists etc
[06:54] <Amaranth> whoa, mignight. bed time
[06:54] <ajmitch> heh
[06:55] <ajmitch> it's great when you stumble across python bugs
[06:58] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, hopefully this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates will have an LP solution soon
[06:58] <ajmitch> I hope so
[06:58] <Lathiat> ajmitch: python has no bugs!
[06:58] <Burgundavia> ajmitch, for all his sins, sabdfl thought it was cool
[06:58] <ajmitch> but the DapperDrake page really wasn't the place for package requests for now
[06:58] <ajmitch> haha
[06:59] <Lathiat> f**k me how long is that page
[06:59] <ajmitch> yeah I sparked a 30min debate about package versioning yesterday when I questioned his wisdom :)
[06:59] <Burgundavia> yes, I saw that
[06:59] <Lathiat> where was that?
[06:59] <Burgundavia> -devel
[06:59] <ajmitch> #ubuntu-devel
[06:59] <Lathiat> what time?
[06:59] <TiMiDo> hey people =)
[07:00] <Burgundavia> Lathiat, around utc 7am
[07:00] <ajmitch> about 9:30pm last night, NZDT :)
[07:00] <ajmitch> later than 0700UTC
[07:01] <Burgundavia> ok
[07:04] <Lathiat> "i agree with you philosopically, but technically your argumen tis bullshit
[07:04] <Lathiat> and i cant speeel
[07:24] <ajmitch> TiMiDo: please, don't change nick so many times when you're in a number of channels :)
[08:40] <slomo> somebody already awake?
[08:41] <tritium> almost bed time...
[08:47] <zakame> i am awake :)
[08:48] <slomo> fine :) anything to do currently? ;)
[08:58] <zakame> i thought today's a bugday?
[08:58] <slomo> yes
[09:04] <vnpaven> Hello everybody
[09:05] <vnpaven> Can you tell me how to install Ubuntu from harddisk (without burning CD from ISO file)?
[09:06] <Treenaks> vnpaven: uh, not in 2-3 lines
[09:06] <Treenaks> vnpaven: it _can_ be done but it's not easy
[09:06] <jsgotangco> i know someone who upgraded from hoary to a breezy iso though
[09:07] <slomo> hmm
[09:07] <slomo> is https://launchpad.net/people/motu/+assignedbugs working for someone?
[09:08] <vnpaven> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=28948&highlight=Install+harddisk
[09:09] <vnpaven> This is the link talk about this topic but not finish. Can you please continue to talk so that make it become How to ...?
[09:11] <Lathiat> slomo: seems to be loading here
[09:11] <Lathiat> 70%
[09:11] <Lathiat> yep loaded
[09:14] <slomo> Lathiat: hmm... i get RequestExpired
[09:14] <slomo> A server error occurred.
[09:14] <slomo> weird
[09:14] <Lathiat> i was getting that
[09:14] <Lathiat> works here
[09:14] <Lathiat> ask in #launchpad?
[09:15] <slomo> asked ;)
[10:06] <ajmitch> hi dholbach
[10:06] <dholbach> good morning
[10:06] <dholbach> hey andrew
[10:08] <jsgotangco> morning daniel
[10:08] <dholbach> hey jerome, how are you?
[10:08] <slomo> dholbach: please look at that amd64 gazpacho bug... my brother prepared a debdiff for the package which seems to work... the patch is from upstream
[10:08] <jsgotangco> great...i always see your face in my laptop..can i ask for more?
[10:09] <dholbach> slomo: excellent, i have it on my todo list
[10:09] <slomo> dholbach: something for breezy-updates?
[10:09] <slomo> i'm currently working on that drgeo-menus-don't-work bug... seems to be related to c++ symbol mangling :(
[10:10] <dholbach> slomo: probably, yes
[10:10] <Mortas> dholbach: is there a short summary of the meeting of yesterday because it's a bit chaotic to read through :)
[10:10] <Mortas> otherwise I'll wait till after some coffee before I try to read it again
[10:10] <ajmitch> Mortas: there will be once I write it up
[10:11] <slomo> hi ajmitch :)
[10:11] <ajmitch> hello slomo
[10:11] <ajmitch> no I've been busy, I haven't looked at them today ;)
[10:12] <ajmitch> that's going on my 'long weekend/public holiday' pile
[10:18] <slomo> ajmitch: hehe ok :) thanks
[10:18] <slomo> how long is your weekend?
[10:18] <ajmitch> 3 days
[10:18] <ajmitch> this weekend
[10:18] <slomo> :)
[10:19] <slomo> dholbach: hehe, praise me :) i fixed drgeo ;)
[10:19] <dholbach> WOW :)))
[10:19] <slomo> dholbach: sadly it needs patching autofoo
[10:20] <slomo> or maybe i can set LDFLAGS for configure... hmm
[10:21] <slomo> where shall i send i mail to approve and upload my patch? mdz?
[10:22] <dholbach> yes
[10:22] <ajmitch> yes
[10:22] <ajmitch> email debdiff
[10:22] <ajmitch> he *might* approve
[10:22] <ajmitch> I've got to email him my f-spot debdiff
[10:22] <ajmitch> since f-spot is killing data in its sleep
[10:22] <ajmitch> (on ppc)
[10:22] <slomo> hehe... it's a one-liner and makes the program usable again
[10:23] <ajmitch> f-spot is a 4 line patch from upstream
[10:23] <slomo> yes, i looked at it
[10:23] <slomo> he didn't approve it?
[10:23] <ajmitch> I haven't emailed it yet
[10:23] <ajmitch> since I didn't want to do that while I was at work
[10:23] <ajmitch> and I only prepared the upload during the MOTU meeting :)
[10:23] <Treenaks> oh, and beagle broke jdub's fs
[10:24] <ajmitch> yay
[10:24] <ajmitch> beagle love
[10:24] <slomo> hehe
[10:28] <slomo> ok, mail sent
[10:42] <slomo> ajmitch: imho not needed for drgeo... it's only a new linker flag which should be there anyway and makes it possible for libglade to find some symbols... doesn't change anything else
[10:43] <slomo> ajmitch: and the bug that was reported disappeared... the menus actually work again ;)
[10:43] <ajmitch> yes, whereas f-spot is currently working in breezy
[10:43] <slomo> yes
[10:43] <ajmitch> so if an update broke it, I'd be dead
[10:43] <slomo> shall i test it a bit on ppc?
[10:43] <ajmitch> please do, you want my package?
[10:43] <slomo> yes
[10:44] <ajmitch> wget http://ajmitch.meta.net.nz/debuild/ubuntu/tmp/f-spot_0.1.3-1ubuntu1.1.d{sc,iff.gz}
[10:44] <slomo> don't want to compile anything today... otherwise i don't have enough power for the next 2 hours ;)
[10:45] <slomo> hm... isn't f-spot arch all?
[10:45] <ajmitch> grab the orig.tar.gz from the mirror
[10:45] <ajmitch> no
[10:45] <ajmitch> although it possibly should be
[10:46] <slomo> it has
[10:46] <ajmitch> right
[10:46] <ajmitch> I thought arch: any was right :)
[10:47] <ajmitch> you don't have a fast ppc?
[10:49] <slomo> i don't enough battery
[10:49] <ajmitch> ah.. :)
[10:49] <ajmitch> use an ac adaptor! ;)
[10:51] <slomo> forgot mine today ;)
[10:51] <ajmitch> heh
[10:51] <ajmitch> silly
[11:15] <Mortas> ogra: alive?
[11:16] <ogra> Mortas, gimme a moment...
[11:17] <ogra> whats your BZ login ?
[11:17] <Mortas> kristian@xsguard.com
[11:17] <dholbach_> ogra: do you have bugzilla SUPAH POWAH? if so, could you give me permissions to set default assignees for packages?
[11:18] <dholbach_> i suppose, i need more powah for that
[11:18] <ogra> Mortas, you have read and understood the according wikipages ? HelpingWithBugs etc ?
[11:19] <ogra> dholbach_, i have only editusers power, mvo has editcomponents
[11:20] <dholbach_> ahhh cooll
[11:20] <dholbach_> and who has givepeopleeditcomponents?
[11:20] <dholbach_> just matt?
[11:21] <Mortas> ogra: yes I have, and if I'm in doubt about something I will discuss in ubuntu-bugs first before I change anything
[11:21] <ogra> probably kiko too on a lower level
[11:21] <Lathiat> database haxxoring
[11:21] <ogra> Mortas, ok, you got the power, use it wise luke ;)
[11:21] <Mortas> thank you :)
[11:22] <jsgotangco> use the force and run little padawan...
[11:22] <jsgotangco> heh
[11:22] <Lathiat> jsgotangco: run? fly!
[11:22] <jsgotangco> ajmitch, should be supremefunkadeliultimateboppydoopypowah
[11:23] <Lathiat> hacksawpowah
[11:23] <ajmitch> no I already have that one
[11:23] <jsgotangco> you don't have the limited edition mothership mode
[11:23] <ajmitch> heh
[11:24] <ajmitch> bye all
[11:24] <Lathiat> hahaha early night
[11:24] <jsgotangco> night andrew
[11:24] <Lathiat> yeh right ;p
[11:25] <ajmitch> early == before 11pm
[11:25] <ajmitch> I would like to get > 4 hours sleep for a change ;)
[11:26] <Lathiat> heh i got 4 hours slepe last night
[11:26] <Lathiat> the world wouldnt let me get back to sleep
[11:26] <Lathiat> phone calls
[11:26] <Lathiat> aunty home
[11:26] <Lathiat> battery flat in car
[11:26] <Lathiat> put the grocieries away
[11:26] <Lathiat> more phone calls
[11:26] <Lathiat> etc etc
[11:26] <Lathiat> i gave up
[12:02] <marcin_ant> hi all - I would like to prepare a bunch of new packages for emacs and got some 'fundamental' questions - I need some emacs/debian policy guru to talk - anyone?
[12:10] <slomo> ajmitch: i'll test f-spot now... i was eating ;)
[12:15] <slomo> ajmitch: it eats my jpegs when rotating ;)
[12:16] <slomo> ajmitch: with every jpeg
[01:30] <pef> hello, can someone check this http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=803 ? thanks !
[01:36] <Lathiat> pef: is this proposed for -updates ?
[01:36] <pef> Lathiat: sorry, don't understand
[01:37] <Lathiat> pef: is this the kcheckgmail packaged prosped for breezy-updates
[01:38] <pef> Lathiat: yes, because it corrects an important bug
[01:38] <Lathiat> pef: right, is it possible to just patch and not have a new upstream?
[01:39] <pef> Lathiat: will try to apply my patch to current version
[01:40] <Lathiat> pef: i mean, since the package is useless, its probably not a huge issue
[01:40] <Lathiat> what does the new version change?
[01:40] <Lathiat> also 0.5.4 is in debian
[01:40] <Lathiat> if yoru going to do a new upstream you could considering grabbing that + our patch
[01:40] <Lathiat> as 1ubuntu1
[01:40] <Lathiat> -> less merge effort later
[01:42] <pef> Lathiat: So i have to get debian's version, apply my patch and upload this to revu, right ?
[01:42] <Lathiat> i guess
[01:42] <Lathiat> but not doing a new upstream at all would be preferable i guess
[01:43] <marcin_ant> is there any common naming convention for emacs packages in ubuntu?
[01:43] <pef> Lathiat: when upstream author will release new version, can I upload this version when dapper will be open ?
[01:44] <Lathiat> pef: of course
[01:44] <Lathiat> pef: it would be synced from debian anyway
[01:44] <Lathiat> pef: also, please file your patch in the debian bug
[01:44] <pef> Lathiat: I've sent a link to my patch
[01:44] <Lathiat> pef: cool
[01:46] <pef> Lathiat: I don't fully understand difference between grabbing Debian's version and patch it, and upload new upstream version (same as Debian) and patch it, is it only a merge problem ?
[01:48] <Lathiat> pef: we need to stay as close to debian as possible
[01:48] <Lathiat> pef: less work later on
[01:48] <Lathiat> we have enough work to do
[01:49] <pef> Lathiat: ok, should I upload to revu using dput as usual, or give a link to  a debdiff ?
[01:50] <dholbach> janimo is here! :)
[01:50] <tseng> woo
[01:51] <Lathiat> pef: ummm
[01:51] <Lathiat> pef: dunno, but throw me a debdiff
[01:58] <pef> Lathiat: ok, same work to do with this bug ? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+sources/qtparted/+bug/3212
[02:00] <Lathiat> pef: that wont go into breezy
[02:00] <Lathiat> pef: but for dapper, yes
[02:00] <Lathiat> if theres a new debian apckage
[02:00] <Lathiat> best to keep in line with that
[02:00] <Lathiat> (i know its a hassle sometimes when debian is a bit behind, but it saves us more work in the long run)
[02:00] <Lathiat> e.g. feel free to upload before debian gets  anew version, but when they do, its nice to sync up
[02:02] <pef> foo-1.0 is in Debian and ubuntu repository, if foo-1.1 is released, I can package it for Dapper, and when Debian uploads its own 1.1 release, I should sync from them ?
[02:03] <Lathiat> basically
[02:03] <pef> and what's the role of utnubu team ?
[02:03] <Lathiat> like, you can reapply your changes or whatever, just try hard to keep our packages the same
[02:03] <Lathiat> pef: to take our patches and stuff and put them back in debian
[02:03] <Lathiat> and packages, or whatever
[02:03] <Lathiat> in cases where we dont help do it ourselves
[02:04] <Lathiat> basically
[02:04] <Lathiat> MOTU for debian
[02:04] <Lathiat> in a reverse relationshpi
[02:04] <Lathiat> .. sortof. :)
[02:04] <Lathiat> now i will tes tkcheckgmail
[02:04] <Lathiat> man
[02:05] <Lathiat> siretart: revu needs tohave an apt archive
[02:05] <Lathiat> siretart: so i can apt update adn apt-get -t revu source kcheckgmail
[02:05] <Lathiat> siretart: copying and pasting 3 links is so not win
[02:05] <pef> ok : thanks for the infos, I will keep you informated about my debdiff, I have to go to work now
[02:05] <Lathiat> pef: ok
[02:05] <Lathiat> pef: i'll check this gmail anyway
[02:05] <pef> will do it this evening
[02:05] <Lathiat> pef: since it probably wont be far off
[02:06] <pef_aw> Lathiat: is it another problem ?
[02:06] <Lathiat> pef_aw: hrm?
[02:06] <Lathiat> wwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[02:06] <Lathiat> www
[02:06] <Lathiat> wwwwwwwww
[02:07] <Lathiat> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[02:07] <Lathiat> fuck
[02:07] <Lathiat> my w key is so sensitive
[02:07] <Lathiat> i res
[02:07] <Lathiat> t my finger on it and it goes off :(
[02:07] <pef_aw> :p
[02:08] <pef_aw> so
[02:08] <pef_aw> gone
[02:36] <pschulz01> Has anyone tried 'tftpd' or 'atftp' with breezy? Particularly with inetd?
[02:36] <pschulz01> I have seen a problem with getting these packages to work.
[02:36] <ogra> pschulz01, use tftpd-hpa
[02:37] <pschulz01> ogra: OK.. but I don't think the problem is not with the daemons, rather inetd, and IPv6 configuration.
[02:37] <pschulz01> ogra: I'll see if  tftpd-hpa does the same thing.. back soon.
[02:37] <ogra> pschulz01, edubuntu uses it extensively for ltsp... i havent heard about any probs with it
[02:39] <pschulz01> ogra:  do they run it as a deamon, or via inetd?
[02:39] <ogra> inetd
[02:39] <siretart> pschulz01: try starting it as daemon instead of inetd. I've seen that issue last week
[02:39] <siretart> couldn't reproduce on my own machine though
[02:39] <siretart> Lathiat: yes, I want to exploit mini-dinstall for revu2
[02:41] <pschulz01> siretart:  tftpd-hpa does the same thing!... inetd starts it up as a upd6 service.
[02:41] <pschulz01> siretart: 'netstat -u -l' shows this up.
[02:42] <pschulz01> The problem is not present (udp is used) if it is started up as a daemon.. so something isn't right with either inetd or tcpd.
[02:43] <Lathiat> siretart: cool :)
[02:43] <Lathiat> im going to beed
[02:43] <Lathiat> night all
[02:43] <ogra> night Lathiat
[02:44] <ogra> pschulz01, as i said, it waorks flawless in edubuntu on a lot of installs out of the box... ipv6 shouldnt be an issue at all... did you tweak your inetd somehow ?
[02:46] <pschulz01> ogra: I only changed my path.
[02:46] <ogra> from ? to ?
[02:47] <ogra> i mean that shouldnt affect it since it uses root's path just courious....
[02:47] <pschulz01> ogra: inetutils-inetd doesn't get installed by default.. and inetd.conf is empty by default on breezy.. is this expected?
[02:47] <ogra> breezy doesnt install any server apps
[02:47] <ogra> security policy
[02:47] <pschulz01> ogra: changed /boot to /var/tftpboot
[02:48] <pschulz01> ogra: there is only one line in /etc/inetd.conf
[02:48] <ogra> rather /var/lib/tftpboot, no ?
[02:48] <pschulz01> ogra: I proably should.. but old habit die hard.
[02:48] <ogra> not here, my inetd.conf is populated fine here
[02:49] <pschulz01> ogra: upgrade or fresh install?
[02:49] <ogra> both...
[02:49] <pschulz01> Hmmm.
[02:50] <ogra> upgraded standard breezy and fresh installed edubuntu (where inetd comes by default)
[02:50] <pschulz01> What should I expect to be in inetd.conf after I install the package? lots of lines?
[02:51] <ogra> a handfull... let me purge netkit-inetd and remove the file...
[02:51] <pschulz01> I'm at package.. inetutils-inetd-2:1.4.2+20040207-4
[02:52] <ogra> oh, why dont you use the supported version ?
[02:53] <pschulz01> Arn't I? I should be...
[02:53] <ogra> netkit-inetd is in main
[02:53] <ogra> use that one...
[02:56] <pschulz01> Hmmm.. fixing up apt/sources.list and trying again.
[02:58] <Kyral> mornin;
[03:12] <pschulz01> ogra: That fixed the problem.. netkit-base-0.10-10.1ubuntu2
[03:12] <ogra> yup
[03:13] <pschulz01> What is  inetutils-inetd for?
[03:14] <pschulz01> Cheers... bye for now.
[03:23] <ivoks> hi
[05:05] <bddebian> Heya gang
[05:17] <dholbach> hey barry :-)
[05:17] <bddebian> Hi Daniel :)
[06:25] <dholbach> it was nice to have met another MOTU :)
[06:33] <pef> Lathiat: ping
[06:33] <pef> dholbach: hello Daniel
[06:33] <Lathiat> pef: pong
[06:33] <Lathiat> pef: i wont be aroudn long but
[06:33] <Lathiat> i just woke up will be going back to bed shortly
[06:34] <dholbach> hey pef
[06:34] <pef> Lathiat: just to give you the link to kcheckgmail's debdiff
[06:34] <pef> Lathiat: http://dev.erodia.net/ubuntu/kcheckgmail-0.5.4/kcheckgmail_0.5.4-1.1ubuntu1.debdiff
[06:34] <Lathiat> cool
[06:34] <pef> I hope it's ok
[06:34] <Lathiat> im sure its fine
[06:34] <pef> dholbach: what do you think about my intention to being a MOTU ?
[06:35] <dholbach> pef: that's an excellent plan :))))
[06:35] <Lathiat> sounds good to me
[06:35] <dholbach> you did quite a lot of good work already
[06:35] <Lathiat> pef: btw, while that doesn't look particularly intrusive
[06:36] <Lathiat> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/HowToPatch
[06:37] <pef> Lathiat: patch not "big" enough to use dpatch ?
[06:37] <pef> dholbach: ok, so I will ask for being a motu to next CC :)
[06:38] <Lathiat> pef: well its not huge, its not small, but the general advice i got from the meeting was just plain not to screw with the build system
[06:38] <dholbach> pef: a member first
[06:38] <dholbach> :)
[06:38] <Lathiat> i dunno, im waitin gfor ajmitch adn ogra or soemthign to review taht page
[06:38] <Lathiat> eh, waiting for ajmitch and ogra or someone to review that page
[06:38] <pef> dholbach: already a member :)
[06:38] <dholbach> oh then at TB meeting
[06:39] <Lathiat> pef: tip: get yoru wiki page up to scratch!
[06:39] <Lathiat> link to ever bug you played with, eveyr apckage upload, every wiki page, etc
[06:39] <ogra> Lathiat, look for typos, else it looks good
[06:39] <Lathiat> ogra: so in pef's case
[06:39] <Lathiat> ogra: should just patch the source and include the diff in debian/ubuntu-patches/kubuntu_authentication.diff or somethign like that?
[06:40] <dholbach> i'd very much like to have more of the kubuntu guys in here :)
[06:40] <ogra> Lathiat, yup... if there is no patchsys inside the package yet
[06:41] <Lathiat> dholbach: yeh the kubuntu guy swkinda hangout on #kubuntu-devel :)
[06:41] <dholbach> yeah
[06:41] <dooglus> Breezy's "isag" is very broken, as I reported in malone 3393.  I could make a patch to fix the problems.  Should I?  Or should it go upstream?
[06:41] <pef> ogra: and my changes to debian/control will be lost ? what about putting in ubuntu-patches/ the debdiff ?
[06:42] <ogra> nope, just a plain patch....
[06:42] <dooglus> dholbach: I see you just did something to the 3393, but I'm not sure what it means.  "Assignee: (unassigned) => MOTU"
[06:42] <Lathiat> pef: debian/ stuff is fine, leave that out
[06:42] <ogra> the control changes will be in te diff.gz
[06:42] <Lathiat> derek_: thats usually easy enough to see the difference of
[06:43] <pef> Lathiat: so minor changes I've made like adding homepage to debian/control description, updating debian/watch file are useless ?
[06:43] <Lathiat> nono
[06:43] <Lathiat> as in
[06:43] <Lathiat> include them
[06:43] <Lathiat> dont change the patch in ubuntu-patches with them
[06:43] <Lathiat> at least i dont think so
[06:43] <Lathiat> ogra: ?
[06:43] <Lathiat> i suppose that would make merging when we dont have the common base easier
[06:44] <ogra> Lathiat, right
[06:47] <dholbach> dooglus: it's a universe package and i assigned it to the bunch of guys who are supposed to FIX UNIVERSE PACKAGES! :)
[06:47] <pef> getting debian's version, applying my patch, make somes changes to debian/, put my patch into ubuntu-patches/ and make a debdiff ?
[06:49] <pef> or just put the patch to ubuntu-patches and make a debdiff ?
[06:49] <Lathiat> i *think* it shoudl go *inside* a dir ubuntu-patches
[06:49] <Lathiat> but umm
[06:49] <Lathiat> im not sure
[06:50] <dooglus> dholbach: does that mean that I shouldn't fix it?
[06:50] <dholbach> no, sure, fix it
[06:51] <dholbach> dooglus: if a bug is assigned to motu, it gets on desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
[06:51] <pef> Lathiat: if I patch the source and put the patch into ubuntu-patches, changes will be saved twice
[06:51] <dooglus> Very well.  By the power of Grayskull!
[06:51] <Lathiat> pef: yes
[06:51] <Lathiat> pef: but thats how it was recommended to do it
[06:51] <Lathiat> pef: basically the patch actually change sit, the included patch is just informative
[06:52] <pef> uh ok
[06:52] <pef> will do it rightly now
[06:54] <Lathiat> eh dont be too fussed, all this stuff is 'new' it wasnt 'wrong' bebfore just we decided to change policy so its just 'more right' thsi way :)
[06:54] <Lathiat> that wiki page was created yesterday :)
[06:55] <pef> Lathiat: no problems, it's not a  hard thing to do ;)
[06:57] <dooglus> dholbach: oh, I see.  It just occurred to me - perhaps this package is set up for the amd64 kernel or something?  Could it be that the different kernels have different features available in /proc?
[06:57] <dholbach> that's a question you better ask in #ubuntu-kernel
[07:00] <pef> Lathiat: a recommend "level" (-p1, -p0, ...) for the patch ?
[07:07] <tekNico> Hi everyone.
[07:08] <tekNico> I built the packages for pytables 1.1.1-1, universe currently has 0.9.1-2, looks like SloMoSnail is the Ubuntu maintainer.
[07:08] <Amaranth> there is no maintainer in ubuntu
[07:08] <Amaranth> everyone is free to do whatever
[07:08] <Amaranth> the maintainer is just the last person that touched it
[07:09] <SloMoSnail> tekNico: i'm not... i fixed something with it but nothing else ;) i don't even know what this package is good for
[07:09] <tekNico> slomo: I also saw pytables somehow assigned to you on this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseUnmetDeps . :-)
[07:10] <slomo> tekNico: that was the fix ;)
[07:10] <slomo> hm, does someone know what to do with CVE in launchpad? this one is fixed for ages: https://launchpad.net/malone/cve/2005-2718
[07:11] <doko> tekNico: please make sure to take the very same .orig.tar.gz, which is in debian unstable
[07:11] <tekNico> doko: that's what I did, yeah.
[07:12] <doko> tekNico: thanks :)
[07:12] <tekNico> What should I do now to help v.1.1.1-1 land in universe?
[07:14] <ogra> tekNico, wait until the archive opens for uploads to dapper :)
[07:16] <tekNico> OK. Then what? Shall I directly upload the files myself? :-)
[07:17] <ogra> tekNico, to where ?
[07:17] <ogra> the archives are locked currently ...
[07:17] <ogra> we wait that dapper opens o we can upload to dapper
[07:17] <ogra> *so
[07:18] <tekNico> ogra: I got that, so I'll wait.
[07:18] <ogra> :)
[07:18] <tekNico> ogra: but someday the wait will be over, hopefully.
[07:18] <tekNico> ogra: then what?
[07:18] <ogra> hopefully during this week
[07:19] <tekNico> Is anyone able to upload stuff to the archives? I thought only MOTU members could do that.
[07:19] <ogra> tekNico, are you sure debian hasnt the new version already ? because then we'd autosync it from there... else some MOTUs need to review and upload your package
[07:19] <ogra> tekNico, exactly
[07:20] <tekNico> Unstable has it, testing has not.
[07:20] <pef> ogra: does it seems ok for you ? http://dev.erodia.net/ubuntu/kcheckgmail-0.5.4/kcheckgmail_0.5.4-1.1ubuntu1.debdiff
[07:20] <ogra> we never sync from testing
[07:20] <tekNico> ok, then I'll just use my packages until the autosync.
[07:21] <tekNico> It's been rather trivial work anyway. :-)
[07:22] <ogra> pef, looks sane to me... lets see what mdz/Kamion say :)
[07:23] <pef> ogra: should I ask one of them directly, or should I put this somewhere on the wiki ?
[07:23] <ogra> got a bug for it ?
[07:23] <ogra> so attach it to the bug
[07:24] <tekNico> Mmh... but I'll have to switch to Dapper to be able to use those autosync'ed packages.
[07:25] <tekNico> What's the procedure to decide what's going to be backported and what's not going to be?
[07:32] <ogra> tekNico, backports will need a base first ... there is nothing where the backports team can backport from to breezy currently... this waits too on the archive opening
[07:33] <ogra> tekNico, but the right way is to send a mail to the ubuntu-bakports mailing list and to request a backport from dapper to breezy
[07:33] <ogra> *ubuntu-backports
[07:33] <tekNico> ogra: ok, thanks
[07:36] <Yagisan> G'day guys
[07:37] <Yagisan> we have a motu meeting in a few hours - that I won't be able to attend
[07:37] <slomo> Yagisan: it was yesterday ;)
[07:38] <Yagisan> really - I'm out of it
[07:38] <pef> bye !
[07:38] <Yagisan> need sleep badly
[07:38] <Yagisan> and need to finsh ubi assinment
[07:40] <Yagisan> slomo: what was the result for universe kernels ?
[07:40] <slomo> Yagisan: don't know... i had to sleep :( i'll read the log tomorrow
[07:41] <slomo> ok, i have to leave again... bbl :)
[07:42] <Yagisan> night
[07:43] <shawarma> What does it take to be able to comment on REVU?
[07:44] <siretart> shawarma: contributors comment only their own uploads. reviewers can comment on all packages
[07:44] <shawarma> siretart: And reviewers are... who? MOTU?
[07:45] <siretart> shawarma: yes. REVU is mainly for MOTUs
[07:45] <siretart> well, for MOTUs reviewing packages of non-motus, that is
[07:47] <ogra> or packages of ther MOTUs :)
[07:47] <ogra> *other
[07:47] <shawarma> siretart: Ok. Fair enough. Just had a bit of time and felt like helping newbees by reviewing stuff but there was nowhere to post comments.
[07:47] <shawarma> Do you MOTUs put your own packages through REVU?
[07:48] <siretart> shawarma: yes. I will work on revu2 to make it possible to comment for ALL users, not only reviewers
[07:48] <siretart> shawarma: I did some packages I wanted fellow motus to review on revu
[07:48] <shawarma> siretart: Oh, right. That makes sense.
[07:49] <shawarma> siretart: I suppose I COULD also just pull myself together and become a MOTU. :-D Oh well, some other day.
[07:49] <ogra> shawarma, we have a policy that NEW packages need reviews from 2 MOTUs
[07:50] <shawarma> ogra: Oh, also packages from MOTUs?
[07:50] <ogra> regardless if you are a MOTU or not :)
[07:50] <shawarma> Ok. That's probably a very sensible policy. Peer review can be very valuable.
[07:56] <shawarma> I need a bit of help. I'm just reading the debconf tutorial. I find it quite ambiguous. The description says to use db_input + db_go to ask a question, but a few paragraphs later in an example both db_input and db_go are skipped and instead db_get is used... I'm a bit confused.
[07:58] <shawarma> Which is it? Can I just use db_get instead of _input and _go ?
[07:59] <ogra> input waits for an input, go goes to the next step get gets the value from the input...
[07:59] <ogra> have a look at some postinst that asks debconf questions...
[07:59] <ogra> moodle is a godd one...
[07:59] <shawarma> So what would happen if I try to _get a value that hasn't been asked?
[07:59] <ogra> *good
[08:00] <ogra> it would be unset
[08:01] <shawarma> Ok. That makes sense. Then one of the examples in the tutorial is b0rk3n.
[08:02] <shawarma> ogra: Ok, thanks!
[08:15] <allee> siretart: aaaahhh, 'comment for ALL users'.  I will like revu2 very much ;)
[08:16] <siretart> allee: :)
[08:50] <Kyral> Yo guys
[08:52] <Kyral> hmm, can php4 and php5 exist on the same system like gcc-3.4 and gcc-4 can...
[08:53] <Kyral> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+sources/phpldapadmin/+bug/3361 <---Wait a sec...
[08:53] <Kyral> the depends say php4 and php5...
[08:55] <Kyral> what does a "|" in depends mean again? Or?
[08:56] <dholbach> yes
[08:56] <Kyral> to which one? :P
[08:57] <dholbach> the last :)
[08:57] <Kyral> or if the package has a bunch of | in them it means it will take whatever is installed if its on that list?
[08:58] <Kyral> which would make #3361 null and void
[09:00] <Kyral> So comment + Reject?
[09:02] <\sh> Kyral: it says "php4 | php5"?
[09:03] <Kyral> yup
[09:03] <\sh> Kyral: in install dependencies...so it will take php4 if php4 is available...php5 if php5 is available.and what does our package`
[09:03] <\sh> ?
[09:03] <Kyral> phpldapadmin
[09:04] <Kyral> or what does it say in the Depends?
[09:04] <\sh> The following extra packages will be installed: apache apache-common apache2-utils libapache-mod-php4 libapr0 libzzip-0-12 php4 php4-common php4-ldap
[09:05] <Kyral> hmm
[09:05] <\sh> which means, php5 will never be installed
[09:05] <\sh> bah...webapps
[09:05] <\sh> it's always a mess
[09:05] <Kyral> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/3387
[09:06] <Kyral> thats what it says when I do an apt-cache search for it
[09:06] <Kyral> Bah, I'll just change the control to force it to use PHP5
[09:07] <\sh> -EILLPACKAGE
[09:07] <\sh> Kyral: no
[09:07] <Kyral> eh
[09:07] <poningru> hi I was wondering what the steps are
[09:07] <poningru> in becoming a motu
[09:07] <Kyral> Kill bugs :D
[09:07] <poningru> ok
[09:08] <poningru> thats the thing
[09:08] <poningru> is it the malone ones or buo ones?
[09:08] <Kyral> \sh is there a way to alter the control so it prefers PHP5?
[09:08] <poningru> buo == bugzilla ubuntu org
[09:08] <Kyral> I'm using Malone myself
[09:09] <poningru> I meant which package bugs to stomp? as in universe bugs or general bugs?
[09:09] <ogra> Kyral, just make sure php5 is installed, then it shouldnt pull in 4 anymore
[09:09] <\sh> Kyral: I'm thinking about a better solution
[09:10] <Kyral> okay
[09:10] <\sh> Kyral: because some people don't like php5 and some like php4
[09:10] <ogra> and 5 is the default in main...
[09:10] <\sh> ogra: yes...but php4 | php5 with apt-get will always pull in php4
[09:10] <Kyral> Should I just comment to say "If you have PHP5 installed it will use PHP5" and then Reject it?
[09:10] <\sh> ogra: or?
[09:11] <Kyral> but would php5 | php4 pull in php5?
[09:11] <ogra> \sh, it will pull in the first, yes... but if php5 is there, the dependency is satisfied
[09:11] <ogra> luckily we will be able to drop 4 in dapper i think
[09:12] <\sh> ogra: I don't like packages webapps
[09:12] <Kyral> I'm thinking that I should just switch the OR statements....
[09:13] <\sh> why we have to depend on it...why not suggest ;)
[09:13] <Kyral> or reccommend
[09:13] <ogra> \sh, phpmyadmin's eay install has often saved my ass in the past... (today i dont touch mysql anymore... but back then it was great to have it installed in 5min on debian)
[09:13] <ogra> *easy
[09:13] <Kyral> 'cause then someone running aptitude -r would get it anyway
[09:14] <\sh> ogra: yes...but there must be really a better way...something like php-install-app-assistant
[09:14] <Kyral> someone just tell me how I should modify this control file to smack down the bug
[09:14] <ogra> try if changing the order works
[09:14] <\sh> Kyral: change the order
[09:14] <Kyral> ty
[09:15] <Kyral> thats all I wanted to hear :D
[09:15] <\sh> Kyral: try it first but
[09:15] <\sh> Kyral: so setup a local repos and check the install with apt-get -s install phpldapadmin and aptitude
[09:16] <Kyral> or, seeing as I don't have PHP installed period....
[09:16] <\sh> Kyral: apt-get -s install doesn't install anything..but it will show you what it would install if
[09:16] <Kyral> ah
[09:16] <Kyral> how do I setup a local repo? :P
[09:17] <\sh> Kyral: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalAptGetRepositories
[09:17] <bigcx2> Kyral: mini-dinstall
[09:18] <Kyral> and increment the changelog...
[09:19] <LaserJock> do we still need any or all of these: MOTUSlang2Transition, MOTUGLUTransition, UniverseCxxTransition ?
[09:20] <Kyral> should I use the --closes option if this works?
[09:20] <\sh> LaserJock: UniverseCxxTransition please leave it...it could help me for the syncs
[09:20] <\sh> Kyral: no
[09:20] <\sh> --closes is closing bugs in bts
[09:20] <Kyral> kk
[09:20] <LaserJock> What about Slang2 ?
[09:20] <Kyral> should I change the release from "unstable" to "breezy"?
[09:21] <\sh> Kyral: yes
[09:21] <Kyral> and did a standard dch -i
[09:21] <\sh> Kyral: but u checked with debian? if there is already a new package?
[09:21] <Kyral> actually...
[09:21] <Kyral> I should go do that...
[09:21] <\sh> dch -v <debian-version>-<debian-rev>ubuntu1 if it's not an ubuntu package
[09:21] <\sh> dch -v <debian-version>-<debian-rev>ubuntu1 -D breezy if it's not an ubuntu package
[09:23] <Kyral> yah, Debian has a new version...but it doesn't look like it fixes the depend problem
[09:23] <Kyral> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/admin/phpldapadmin
[09:25] <Kyral> should I sync to that one and then fix the depend problem?
[09:26] <Kyral> or a sid pbuilder ;P
[09:26] <Kyral> I'll just fix Ubuntu's
[09:26] <Kyral> we can fix sid's in Dapper ;P
[09:27] <\sh> well...there is no update for breezy....
[09:27] <Kyral> so....?
[09:27] <Kyral> go for sid?
[09:28] <\sh> yes
[09:28] <\sh> and wait for dapper ;)
[09:28] <Kyral> What should i mark the bug then....
[09:28] <\sh> accepted?
[09:29] <Kyral> Sounds good to me
[09:29] <\sh> and write a remark to the bug
[09:29] <Kyral> like? "Will be fixed in Dapper"?
[09:29] <\sh> and note this bug on your wikipage
[09:29] <\sh> yepp
[09:29] <Kyral> Who should I assign to?
[09:29] <\sh> MOTU
[09:29] <Kyral> okay
[09:30] <Kyral> I should really go though and add all the bugs I've affected/fixed on my Wiki
[09:30] <\sh> Kyral: u have to find those bugs again and fix them for dapper, or?
[09:30] <Kyral> no, I have to find the ones I've confirmed, fixed, etc
[09:30] <\sh> Kyral: so for your own documentation it would be good :)
[09:30] <Kyral> I wish Launchpad tracked that....
[09:31] <LaserJock> me too
[09:31] <Kyral> It tracks numbers but not the thing itself
[09:31] <\sh> hmm...it should have a keyword field...keyword "MOTU" and assigned to you :(
[09:31] <Kyral> or I can just search through my archive for the Universe for stuff from me ;P
[09:32] <LaserJock> I thought it would be nice if it had a "belongs to" field and a "assigned to" field
[09:32] <Kyral> yah
[09:32] <Kyral> I wonder if Mez uploaded my fix...
[09:32] <Kyral> I forget what package though...
[09:34] <Kyral> Anyway I'll fix this and upload to REVU
[09:36] <Kyral> adding changelog, (0.9.7-1ubuntu1)
[09:37] <\sh> Kyral: please don't :) attach a debdiff
[09:37] <Kyral> didn't you tell me to? ;P
[09:37] <Kyral> so just dch -i it?
[09:37] <\sh> Kyral: debdiff <debian sid version> <new ubuntu version> > <diffname>
[09:37] <\sh> don't use revu for this
[09:38] <Kyral> so what should I change the version to?
[09:38] <Kyral> or did you mean don't upload to REVU
[09:38] <\sh> Kyral: the version is ok...don't upload it to REVU :)
[09:38] <Kyral> okay
[09:38] <\sh> Kyral: attach a debdiff to the bug
[09:38] <Kyral> I was confused for a second ;P
[09:39] <LaserJock> \sh: shouldn't the content KubuntuSuggestedPackages be covered in UniverseCandidates ?
[09:40] <LaserJock> or at least transferred there
[09:41] <\sh> LaserJock: I don't think so...but please ask riddell..
[09:41] <Riddell> it could be
[09:41] <Riddell> but I think it would be nice to have a special kubuntu section on there if that was the case
[09:42] <LaserJock> I can just make a link from UniverseCandidated to KubuntuSuggestedPackages
[09:43] <Riddell> that's another possibility
[09:43] <Riddell> it's just we have people come along and say "I want to help kubuntu" and that's a good page to point them to
[09:43] <Riddell> or would be if it was up to date
[09:43] <LaserJock> Riddell: that makes sense
[09:44] <LaserJock> Riddell: I am just trying to make sure people can find what they want and it seems like a link from UniverseCandidates would help
[09:44] <Riddell> yep, please add
[09:45] <LaserJock> ok
[09:46] <ogra> LaserJock, you do awesome work, dont forget it to note it on your wikipage
[09:47] <ogra> it will be valuable for becoming a member
[09:47] <LaserJock> ogra: oh, don't worry about that ;-)
[09:47] <LaserJock> ogra: I've been thinking about that
[09:48] <LaserJock> ogra: I got my gpg key signed yesterday so I am pretty excited about that
[09:48] <ogra> go on with what youre doing and apply for membership soon ;)
[09:48] <ogra> cool !
[09:48] <Kyral> uhh
[09:48] <LaserJock> what about FinishedUniverseLIbraries?
[09:48] <LaserJock> is it still current?
[09:49] <lorenzod> ogra, dholbach, I've been looking at the wiki about helping out on MOTU.
[09:49] <lorenzod> It says "contact one of you".
[09:49] <Kyral> SCORE! It WORKS :D
[09:50] <ogra> lorenzod, yup
[09:50] <LaserJock> hmm, last edited 07/17/2005 . maybe not, but it seems like it some Unfinished stuff
[09:50] <dholbach> hi lorenzod, nice to come here :)
[09:50] <ogra> but everyone in here can help too :)
[09:50] <lorenzod> thanks.
[09:51] <lorenzod> So what do I need to know?
[09:51] <lorenzod> Apart from everything, that is..
[09:51] <ogra> you need to become a member first to become a MOTU
[09:51] <dholbach> we're currently having our H^WBUG day, so if you'd like to help out there, that'd be cool
[09:52] <lorenzod> ogra, been looking at that. how do I work myself up to that level?
[09:52] <ogra> to become a member you have to make some valuable contributions, create a wikipage about you and add the li of stuff you have done there
[09:53] <ogra> fixing bugs is a valuable contribution... writing wikipages, howtos, doing artwork, helping to fix packages etc... anything that helps the distro...
[09:53] <lorenzod> ogra, if i do artwork, I'm sure to be blacklisted for good! ;-)
[09:53] <ogra> heh
[09:54] <ogra> its one among many things you can do...
[09:54] <lorenzod> but bugfixing sounds more interesting to me..
[09:54] <ogra> id start with the wikipage and dholbach's suggestion ;)
[09:54] <ogra> go to #ubuntu-bugs
[09:54] <ogra> thats where the fun goes on
[09:55] <lorenzod> moving there.
[09:55] <\sh> damn
[09:56] <Kyral> and debdiff attached
[09:56] <Kyral> Case CLOSED
[09:56] <LaserJock> do we still need MOTUToMerge or it being replaced?
[09:56] <Kyral> Should I change it to "Pending Upload"?
[09:57] <\sh> Kyral: no
[09:57] <ogra> \sh, again ?
[09:57] <Kyral> well I'm done with it
[09:57] <Kyral> time to mark it on my Wiki :D
[09:57] <nalioth> anybody know why the source cds are no longer available?
[09:57] <\sh> ogra: divitech has new problems...right now it doesn't play out EIT data for some services
[09:57] <Kyral> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+sources/phpldapadmin/+bug/3361 <--- If anyone wants to look
[09:58] <\sh> ogra: but the EIT was there this afternoon
[09:58] <ogra> weird
[09:58] <\sh> ogra: and in UPG Network where SA SI server rules...there is EIT !
[09:58] <\sh> ogra: which means, divitech SI server refuses to take the EIT data coming from UPG Network
[09:59] <\sh> ogra: and that means: Divitech is Java Crap
[09:59] <nalioth> i hate it when i send someone to get something and it's not there
[10:02] <\sh> fck
[10:02] <\sh> ogra: fossi phoned me and "ordered me to ISH NOC right now"
[10:03] <nalioth> y'all be good
[10:03] <ogra> \sh, have fun :(
[10:04] <ajmitch> morning all
[10:04] <Kyral> hey ajmitch
[10:05] <ajmitch> Kyral: what bug # ?
[10:05] <Kyral> 3361
[10:05] <\sh> ogra: salvatore is on shift now...so it's ok
[10:05] <Kyral> I just nailed another one
[10:05] <spayne> aloha
[10:05] <ajmitch> from the discussion I saw the package didn't need fixed?
[10:05] <ogra> ah, fine
[10:05] <Kyral> It was more like a depend change ;P
[10:06] <ajmitch> all you did was reverse the php4 | php5 to php5 | php4
[10:06] <Kyral> and I synced it to Sid
[10:06] <ajmitch> which only changes which one will be installed first
[10:06] <Kyral> which is what the bug was complaining about ;P
[10:06] <spayne> \sh: what was the site for checking if your key was in the strong set
[10:06] <ajmitch> aka, yet more merge effort later on
[10:07] <Kyral> Still I busted the bug. C'mon man I'm happy here ;P
[10:07] <\sh> spayne: check it on biglumber
[10:07] <\sh> I'm going to the NOC now...laters
[10:07] <ajmitch> for some definition of 'busted'
[10:07] <Kyral> Squished/Fixed/Resolved
[10:07] <ajmitch> yes, it's a bit of a non-fix :)
[10:08] <Kyral> But it still closes the bug :D
[10:08] <ajmitch> *facepalm*
[10:08] <ajmitch> bye all, I'm going off to work
[10:08] <Kyral> lol sorry
[10:15] <lucas> hi
[10:15] <ogra> hi lucas
[10:16] <lucas> do you know if there is a summary of the thread swhere ?
[10:16] <Kyral> Did I do something wrong there? ;P
[10:26] <lucas> ogra, dholbach: you have some time for a chat about the way MOTU currently works ?
[10:26] <lucas> I quite unsatisfied with some aspects of this
[10:26] <ogra> tell me
[10:27] <lucas> 1/ some MOTU teams deal with a lot of packages (eg: MOTURuby is supposed to). we need scripts to get a list of such packages
[10:27] <lucas> for example, a small pkg-rdepends frontend script that would allow to easily get all packages which depend on libruby1.8
[10:27] <ogra> feel free to write them... MOTU in geneal are 30-35 ppl
[10:28] <ogra> we care for 17000 packages in universe...
[10:28] <lucas> for both debian sid and dapper drake
[10:28] <ogra> apt-cache rdepends libruby1.8 ??
[10:28] <lucas> no such script planned for now ?
[10:28] <lucas> basically that, yes
[10:28] <ajmitch> those scripts are very simple to write
[10:28] <ogra> we use the above... and ajmitch and dholbach write stuff if needed
[10:28] <lucas> -r
[10:29] <lucas> mmh
[10:29] <ogra> we have python-apt for such things
[10:29] <ajmitch> which I'm putting together & going to make available online on tiber
[10:29] <lucas> why is apt-cache rdepends doing the opposite of apt-rdepends ? :-)
[10:29] <ogra> dholbach uses python-apt
[10:30] <lucas> but can't use a Packages file from debian
[10:30] <lucas> it would be needed to monitor pkg additions in debian during freeze
[10:30] <ogra> lucas, what ever is needed can be written.. nobody will stop you, if we arent smart enough to write stuff we always have main devs to ask for help
[10:31] <ajmitch> main devs like ogra & dholbach ;)
[10:31] <ogra> :p
[10:31] <lucas> ogra: the point of this discussion is just to know whether this stuff exist or not
[10:31] <lucas> I can write most of it, but it's useless if it's redundant
[10:31] <ogra> lucas, we have some DDs in the team (like ajmitch )
[10:32] <lucas> ajmitch: you do what ? monitor pkg additions ?
[10:32] <ogra> also note that our automerge tools just pull in whats there
[10:32] <lucas> ogra: not during freeze
[10:32] <ogra> so a package new to debian will just sow up in ubuntu
[10:32] <ajmitch> I monitor what version differences there are between ubuntu & debian
[10:33] <lucas> ajmitch: is this info public somewhere ?
[10:33] <ajmitch> what packages are in ubuntu & not debian, and in debian but not in ubuntu
[10:33] <ogra> lucas, note also that all freezes apply to universe starting with this release
[10:33] <ajmitch> somewhat public but not entirely accurate
[10:33] <ogra> so after UVF you need a good reason to get something synced
[10:34] <lucas> ogra: automatic import from debian was stopped mid-august. for example, feed2imap showed up in debian shortly after the freeze, but was only added to ubuntu breezy a few days before release
[10:34] <ogra> dapper will have 3 years support, the schedule will reflect this
[10:34] <ajmitch> lucas: that's expected
[10:34] <ogra> lucas, that wont happen in dapper
[10:35] <ajmitch> it was only added after someone tested & requested it
[10:35] <ogra> oh, youre still not at work :)
[10:35] <ogra> slacker !
[10:35] <ogra> :)
[10:36] <ogra> lucas, this release will get a lot harder wrt freezes and syncs
[10:36] <lucas> seriously, I don't think there are enough people using ubuntu to be able to rely on them to know what is broken, what should be upgraded, etc
[10:36] <ogra> what ?
[10:36] <lucas> important stuff is broken in ruby in breezy
[10:36] <lucas> and nobody noticed before the release
[10:37] <ogra> there were 1.5 million warty CDs sent out, some million downloads at this time...
[10:37] <ogra> lucas, the prob is that nobody of us is interested in ruby... thats a big lack in MOTU...
[10:38] <lucas> why "nobody of us" ?
[10:38] <ogra> we are urgently looking for people to help out here
[10:38] <Kyral> What IS Ruby?
[10:39] <lucas> I dont really see the point in MOTUs, actually. for ruby, debian is doing a good job
[10:39] <ogra> i'm not interested in ruby programming many other MOTUs arent... some discovered rails and found it intresting during breezy development...
[10:39] <lucas> and the most suitable policy would probably be to *always* import from debian
[10:39] <ogra> thats not always possible
[10:39] <ogra> do you know if ruby compiles with gcc4 ?
[10:40] <ogra> debian doesnt use it ...
[10:40] <ogra> err *didnt
[10:40] <ogra> we have a totally different toolchain...
[10:40] <ogra> since we are ahead of debian here...
[10:40] <ogra> so we need to fix stuff that isnt broken there
[10:41] <ogra> thats what MOTU mainly does ... apart from bringing in packages that arent in debian
[10:42] <ogra> sorry, i just get dinner here ...
[10:42] <lucas> ok
[10:45] <lucas> so basically MOTU is only about doing boring redundant work because Ubuntu is too far from debian ?
[10:45] <lucas> this doesn't sound right ;)
[10:46] <ogra> thats not redundant work
[10:46] <hubW> lucas: stop the troll
[10:47] <lucas> (and only during freeze, since packages are automatically imported the rest of the time)
[10:47] <ogra> ubuntu uses python2.4 everywhere for example.. we prepared everything for debian
[10:48] <lucas> ok
[10:48] <ogra> lucas, there are about 300 packages that require manual merging
[10:48] <ogra> they wont get autosynced
[10:48] <lucas> are there some cases where gcc4 provided bogus executables ?
[10:48] <ogra> some ?
[10:48] <lucas> for gcc4, couldn't you just have used a "it compiles => it works" rule for most packages in universe ?
[10:49] <ogra> nope
[10:49] <ogra> we care for the quality of our packages
[10:49] <ogra> so they need testing etc
[10:50] <lucas> ok, but if you can't provide the testing, what do you choose ? old packages which have known bugs, or new packages which might have unknown bugs ?
[10:50] <Kyral> yo Amaranth!
[10:50] <Amaranth> hi
[10:50] <Amaranth> on a 2.8Ghz machine running ubuntu in vmware is quite usable
[10:50] <Amaranth> so now i can have ubuntu at school too :)
[10:50] <Kyral> lol
[10:50] <Kyral> I just SSH into my box from whereever I am on campus :D
[10:51] <ogra> lucas, whatever works
[10:51] <ogra> lucas, it depends on the scheule really
[10:52] <lucas> ogra: I think the new packages option should be chosen given some criteria
[10:52] <ogra> we have a lot criteria
[10:52] <lucas> for example: new package in debian during freeze + no bugs in 10 days => upload
[10:52] <ogra> but for dapper we'll be quite conservative
[10:53] <Kyral> I think lucas is a Debian fanboy
[10:53] <ogra> Kyral, there is nothing wrong with that
[10:53] <lucas> Kyral: debian has much more educated users than Ubuntu
[10:54] <Kyral> lucas: I take offense at that
[10:54] <Kyral> ogra: Agreed
[10:54] <Kyral> but there is a difference between being a Debian Fanboy and being an impolite Debian Fanboy ;P
[10:54] <lucas> Kyral: by educated, I mean able to write a bug report when something breaks
[10:54] <lucas> Kyral: not educated in general ;)
[10:55] <Kyral> Okay, say that next time
[10:55] <pietrus> may i ask a question about universe?
[10:55] <Kyral> shoot!
[10:55] <Kyral> It will be welcome :D
[10:55] <lucas> Kyral: I would be interested in some stats about the number of distinct bug reporters in Debian and Ubuntu
[10:55] <Kyral> lucas: I don't know how to write a good report
[10:55] <ogra> lucas, make some
[10:55] <Kyral> then again, I usually fix my own
[10:55] <pietrus> are packages synced from sid to the "stable" ubuntu or just to the "next" ubuntu release?
[10:56] <ogra> lucas, both BTS are public available
[10:56] <ogra> pietrus, nope
[10:56] <Kyral> I think he meant which one
[10:56] <lucas> ogra: I usually write them on the debian BTS, I find it more efficient :-)
[10:56] <ogra> pietrus, nothing is synced to the stable release
[10:56] <Kyral> he said Sid to Ubuntu Stable
[10:56] <ogra> lucas, if you want them solved in ubuntu thats silly
[10:56] <Kyral> not Debian Stable ;P
[10:57] <ogra> lucas, since bugfixes in debian can take very long
[10:57] <lucas> ogra: I want them fixed in both, that's the problem
[10:57] <ogra> and we ususally only monitor our bugtrackers
[10:57] <ogra> fine...
[10:57] <LaserJock> yeah, I don't like submitting bugs to Debian because I have never been a Debian user really. Just Ubuntu
[10:58] <ogra> we usually send the fixes upstream
[10:58] <ogra> (which is either debin for us or really upstream)
[10:58] <Kyral> pietrus, I believe that when the Universe for an Ubuntu Release opens, we sync from Sid, then when the release goes stable we send any bugfixes back to Sid
[10:58] <lucas> ogra: nobody care for ubuntu's ruby packages anyway, so chances are higher the bug will be fixed by sending it to debian's bts
[10:58] <Kyral> Did I get that right?
[10:59] <pietrus> ogra: so, right now if there is a new package in debian it will only be available in dapper?
[10:59] <ajmitch> lucas: and then we won't know that there's an issue in ubuntu
[10:59] <ogra> lucas, we'll have a ruby team this release...
[10:59] <ogra> pietrus, yup
[10:59] <Kyral> pietrus, until the Backports Team gets to it
[10:59] <pietrus> thanks ogra and Kyral
[10:59] <zyga> ruby team :)
[10:59] <lucas> ogra: you mean for main ? or for MOTU ?
[10:59] <zyga> lucas: hi
[10:59] <zyga> lucas: there are some ruby things coming
[10:59] <ajmitch> lucas: MOTU
[10:59] <lucas> hi zyga  :)
[10:59] <ogra> lucas, ruby apps dot get to main, except there is a special demand
[11:00] <zyga> lucas: new gnome-ruby release recently
[11:00] <lucas> ajmitch: that's why I think you should rely more on debian
[11:00] <ogra> lucas, if you want to make sure ruby in ubuntu rocks, join the force... if you dont care, go on filing bugs to debian BTS
[11:01] <lucas> ogra,ajmitch: I'm already listed in the MOTURuby team
[11:02] <ogra> we *will* make fixes debian doesnt accept we *will* make enhancements debian will accept after we released etc
[11:02] <zyga> that reminds me
[11:02] <ajmitch> we do rely on debian, but we can't blindly trust everything & sync on a whim
[11:02] <zyga> I've got a bug pending
[11:02] <zyga> I really  need to finish packaging and mark it as fixed
[11:02] <ajmitch> especially after UVF
[11:02] <zyga> ajmitch: UVF?
[11:02] <ajmitch> and it's rather hard to subscribe to all the ruby bugs in debian to watch them
[11:02] <lucas> ogra,ajmitch: my point is: I want to help, but I want it to be as efficient as possible, and the least redundant possible
[11:02] <ajmitch> upstream version freeze
[11:03] <ajmitch> file debian bug, a note in malone which just links to the debian bug
[11:03] <ogra> lucas, the question is do you want to make ruby in debian rocking or in ubuntu ? they arent the same
[11:03] <ajmitch> and hopefully the bug watch in malone will improve to a state where we can do version tracking & check status on one page
[11:04] <lucas> ajmitch: you can subscribe to the ruby packages in the pts, it's easier
[11:04] <ajmitch> lucas: I'm well aware of that
[11:04] <ajmitch> but there's still a lot of random packages we could subscribe to
[11:04] <lucas> ogra: that's the problem. they aren't the same, and if they get too different, it really sucks
[11:04] <lucas> I don't care about fixes accepted in ubuntu but not in debian
[11:04] <zyga> fix something if it's broken
[11:05] <zyga> talk to people when you've got the chance
[11:05] <ogra> lucas, but that happens all the time
[11:05] <zyga> dont try to grab the big picture
[11:05] <ajmitch> so you're saying that you don't care about ubuntu then
[11:05] <ogra> yes
[11:05] <lucas> no, that's not what I'm saying.
[11:06] <ajmitch> Kyral: don't you want to join in our gentle discussion? :)
[11:06] <ajmitch> we're even keeping it relatively flame-free :)
[11:06] <lucas> I say I'd like to be able to say : "Ubuntu really rocks because, for secondary packages for which they don't have time, they just trust debian."
[11:07] <Kyral> ajmitch, Its more so I don't go overboard ;P
[11:07] <ogra> lucas, thats not a matter of trust
[11:07] <ajmitch> lucas: as I said before, we cannot just blindly sync
[11:07] <zyga> everyone: this is #ubuntu-motu
[11:07] <ogra> lucas, in many areas we simply are ahead
[11:07] <zyga> everyone: make ubuntu rock, debian can sync from us for a change
[11:07] <ajmitch> eg when ruby is frozen in main, we cannot just sync it 2 days before release
[11:07] <zyga> I don't run both debian and ubuntu, I just need one at a time, I focus on one
[11:08] <lucas> ajmitch: ruby is not in main.
[11:08] <ogra> lucas, so debian *cant* accept our changes before they are at the point
[11:08] <lucas> ah, it is
[11:08] <ajmitch>    ruby1.8 | 1.8.2-9ubuntu1 | http://10.18.1.1 breezy/main Packages
[11:08] <ogra> lucas, ruby is
[11:08] <ajmitch>    ruby1.8 | 1.8.2-9ubuntu1 | http://10.18.1.1 breezy/main Sources
[11:08] <lucas> my mistake
[11:08] <ogra> the apps arent
[11:08] <ajmitch> if it weren't, we *could* have done more syncs before release
[11:09] <ajmitch> but main gets frozen for a reason
[11:09] <lucas> I don't speak about syncs 2 days before release
[11:09] <ajmitch> and the debdiff to the newer ruby was ~4MB
[11:09] <lucas> I'm speaking about syncs 2 weeks before release for example*$
[11:09] <ogra> wont happen
[11:09] <ajmitch> still, 2 weeks, deep into freeze, trying to make sure you don't break what already works?
[11:10] <lucas> one of the problems with this topic is that you don't know ruby
[11:10] <ajmitch> and you know it very well?
[11:10] <lucas> the interpreter is extremly well unit tested. there are maybe at most 2 ruby releases per year.
[11:10] <lucas> so, when a new version goes out, you can *really* trust it
[11:11] <ogra> that doesnt matter if it arrives 2 weeks before release and breaks all depending apps
[11:11] <zyga> lucas: the same thing could be said about gcc4
[11:12] <ajmitch> so try & argue that with mdz
[11:12] <zyga> then again ... it's wise to wait
[11:12] <ogra> with a 6 month release schedule its not bad to ship an old version... you know you'll have the new one in 6 months
[11:13] <pietrus> is there a java motu team?
[11:13] <lucas> ogra: yes, and this sucks, because for 6 months, I'll have to add some workarounds in my software for ruby interpreter bugs
[11:14] <lucas> because the version in ubuntu is ruby 1.8.2 + svn from ~ 06/2005 if I remember correctly
[11:14] <Kyral> lucas then compile your own
[11:14] <ogra> lucas, then help us :)
[11:14] <Kyral> I didn't like Ubuntu's kernel setup so I compiled my own :D
[11:14] <lucas> ogra: I'm going to
[11:14] <zyga> torvalds said
[11:14] <lucas> that's not the point :-)
[11:14] <ogra> great :)
[11:14] <zyga> code talks
[11:14] <lucas> Kyral: you are not being helpful here
[11:15] <Kyral> see this is why I left to the forums ;P
[11:15] <ogra> lucas, the point is that i dont decide about release schedules or exceptions from it
[11:16] <ogra> lucas, so arguing with me particulary wont gain you any ground :) i suffer as much as everyone else from it (i'm the guy who builds edubuntu, many changes couldnt get into my distro this release) but i also see the need for it
[11:17] <ogra> we cant stabilize if we change the base 2 weeks before release
[11:17] <ogra> because that briongs a transition of all packages that version depend on a package...
[11:18] <ogra> or imagine the api changed with the last version change
[11:18] <ogra> what we do now is to have official backports for such cses... but even here, if the api changed you are lost
[11:20] <lucas> Summary of my understanding of the situation, given the goal of having both Debian's and Ubuntu's Ruby packages well in shape :
[11:20] <lucas> - Before UVF, I should report bugs to Debian. When a new package goes out, it is automatically imported into Ubuntu anyway.
[11:20] <lucas> - After UVF and until reasonably before release (eg 1 month before release), I should report the bug to Debian, and ping on the Ubuntu's bugzilla when the new debian package goes out so Ubuntu can sync.
[11:20] <lucas> - Closer to release, I should still report to Debian, and ask to backport either the package (if it only fixes this bug) or only the bugfix to Ubuntu. The second case is the only time when a different package has to be built for Ubuntu.
[11:22] <ogra> two of your points are wrong...
[11:22] <lucas> the last two ones ?
[11:23] <ogra> if and only if the package was never touched, only then it gets autosynced before UVF
[11:23] <ogra> else MOM (merge-o-matic) will just create a merge bug
[11:23] <ogra> if you bilndly file bugs to debian but dont look into ubuntu, you wont gain anything
[11:24] <lucas> ok, true
[11:24] <ogra> after UVF you will need a very good reason to get it synced
[11:25] <ajmitch> we're going to be even stricter about UVF for dapper
[11:25] <ogra> additionally if you only focus on debian, you will miss the real bugs that count for ubuntu and that are filed by ubuntu users in the ubuntu BTS
[11:26] <ogra> your third point simply doesnt exist... we only backport from one ubuntu release to another
[11:26] <lucas> how high are the chances that a bug which is both in debian and ubuntu is reported only in ubuntu ?
[11:26] <ogra> s before one release is out you can only wait for the next
[11:26] <ogra> very high
[11:27] <ogra> i dont know how high with ruby but we had a lot of bugs we forwarded to debian during breezy<
[11:27] <lucas> in the third point, by "backport", I mean "sync", if you prefer. I don't mean ubuntu-backports
[11:27] <ogra> malone will change the handling of bugs completely anyway
[11:27] <ogra> i meant ubuntu-backports with backports
[11:28] <ogra> from UVF on its very likely that you only backport bugfixes ...
[11:29] <lucas> [backports]  I know, that's why I'm clarifying
[11:30] <ogra> if a sync or rather a backport of a fix is feasable is decided by Kamion or mdz...
[11:30] <lucas> I'm thinking of replacing package v. x.y-z from debian by package v. x.y-(z+1) from debian after reading the changelog
[11:30] <ogra> yes thats possible, but you need to explain why and the debdiff will be inspected
[11:31] <ogra> if its to big or to intrusive, you will have to work on it
[11:31] <lucas> of course, I understand that
[11:31] <ogra> from this point on you changed the package...
[11:31] <ogra> next release it wont get autosynced
[11:32] <ogra> thats why we exist...
[11:32] <lucas> ogra: ok, but when next release happen, you can switch back to the debian package
[11:32] <tseng> no you cant
[11:32] <ogra> ..and why we need every manpower we can get
[11:32] <lucas> (changes are high that you can)
[11:33] <lucas> why ?
[11:33] <tseng> chances are definate that its a manual process
[11:33] <ogra> lucas, meet tseng ... without him mono in debian would suck a lot
[11:33] <ajmitch> hello tseng
[11:33] <lucas> hi tseng
[11:33] <tseng> we share stuff back and forth with ubuntu and debian alot
[11:33] <ogra> lucas, a good example where ubuntu brought god stuff to debian
[11:33] <tseng> but in ubuntu if there is a new debian package and i made a change..
[11:33] <tseng> it doesnt grab it
[11:33] <tseng> one of us needs to merge the changes
[11:34] <tseng> slomo is doing that right now for dapper
[11:34] <Nafallo> hi god tseng :-)
[11:34] <ajmitch> in some cases we are the debian maintainers
[11:34] <tseng> i guess i own blam now
[11:34] <ajmitch> tseng: yay
[11:34] <lucas> ok, but that's not what I'm talking about
[11:34] <lucas> please don't over-generalize
[11:34] <tseng> thats what you are saying
[11:34] <Nafallo> ogra: so tseng is not god-stuff? :-)
[11:34] <tseng> what you are thinking
[11:34] <tseng> who knows
[11:34] <ogra> lucas, you said we should simply take debians packages
[11:35] <tseng> Nafallo: nope.
[11:35] <ogra> lucas, but often we make fixes that debian needs, tseng's work is a very good example
[11:35] <tseng> yay
[11:36] <ajmitch> eg gtk# fix for f-spot, we did that first :)
[11:36] <ogra> lucas, and i hear users shouting that the ruby packaging of debian sucks a lot since warty
[11:36] <lucas> 1 min :)
[11:36] <ogra> lucas, i heard that even from upstream... there are threads on ubuntu-users, read them
[11:38] <lucas> ogra: define upstream ?
[11:38] <ogra> ruby core developer... not packagesr
[11:39] <lucas> who particularly ?
[11:39] <ogra> lucas, read the threads... its quite some time ago
[11:39] <lucas> debian packaging of ruby used to suck
[11:39] <ogra> no idea anymore
[11:39] <lucas> because sone decided to split stdlib in a lot of small packages
[11:39] <ogra> might have been last year
[11:39] <lucas> for example, the xml parser is in stdlib, but wasn't installed when you just installed "ruby" in Debian
[11:40] <zyga> OTOH
[11:40] <lucas> some core ruby devs seem to have something against debian since then
[11:41] <ogra> yup and they asked fro repackaging in ubuntu...
[11:41] <zyga> I'm talking about inner package crap like useless files and 'useful' INSTALL files
[11:41] <lucas> ogra: anyway, it's not the case anymore in Debian
[11:41] <ogra> fine
[11:41] <lucas> (it wasn't in sarge, but it might be in warty)
[11:42] <lucas> not sure about the exact dates here
[11:42] <lucas> Now what's wrong with this timeline ?
[11:42] <lucas> t0: package v. x.y-z is the same as in Debian, we are in UVF, and there's a bug.
[11:42] <lucas> t1: Debian uploads package v. x.y-(z+1)
[11:42] <lucas> t2: We can't sync the whole package, so we just upload package v. x.y-zubuntu1. We release Ubuntu with this version.
[11:42] <lucas> For the next Ubuntu release, we can switch back to v. x.y-(z+1), since our changes are in Debian already.
[11:42] <ajmitch> UVF applies to the x.y part
[11:43] <ajmitch> because that's the upstream version
[11:43] <lucas> ah I thought upstream means Debian
[11:43] <ajmitch> the package is still frozen in ubuntu, but we can make changes to z
[11:44] <ogra> upstream means x.y
[11:44] <lucas> ok, so the solution is better than I thought
[11:44] <lucas> let me fix my example then
[11:44] <ogra> upstream *version*
[11:44] <lucas> well, "upstream version" could be "real upstream version" or "debian version" :)
[11:44] <lucas> it's ambiguous
[11:45] <ogra> the size of your fixes must drop with the amount of time thats gone in the release schedule
[11:46] <lucas> Now what's wrong with this timeline (version 1ubuntu1 ;) ?
[11:46] <lucas> t0: package v. x.y-z is the same as in Debian, we are in UVF, and there's a bug.
[11:46] <lucas> t1: Debian uploads package v. x.(y+1)-1 which fixes the bug
[11:46] <lucas> t2: We aren't allow to sync the whole package, so we just upload package v. x.y-zubuntu1. We release Ubuntu with this version.
[11:46] <lucas> For the next Ubuntu release, we can switch back to v. x.(y+1)-whatever, since our changes are in Debian already.
[11:46] <tseng> sigh
[11:46] <tseng> we have certainly figured this out by now
[11:46] <tseng> after 3 releases
[11:46] <tseng> 2 with the full motu
[11:47] <tseng> but diff isnt smart enough to make this just happen
[11:48] <tseng> you need human intervention in every case
[11:48] <lucas> tseng: ogra said this situation requires a lot of manpower, since locally modified packages won't get auto-imported. I don't see why, since we can switch back to the debian package in the next release
[11:48] <tseng> Merge O Matic gives you what it thinks the ubuntu and debian versions merged should look like
[11:48] <tseng> thats all
[11:48] <tseng> no you cant
[11:48] <tseng> can we please go from perfect fantasy to real world examples?
[11:49] <tseng> i will give you one
[11:49] <tseng> lets see how blam looks
[11:49] <tseng> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge/blam/
[11:50] <tseng> here is the merge between (1.8.0-1 -> 1.8.0-1ubuntu2)
[11:50] <tseng> then blam_debian.patch  -- changes in Debian (1.8.0-1 -> 1.8.2-2)
[11:51] <lucas> tseng: I knew about that. but this requires manpower *once*, to check if the debian package includes the ubuntu fix
[11:51] <tseng> yes
[11:51] <lucas> if it includes it, the version number can be changed to the debian one
[11:51] <tseng> once every time there is a change
[11:51] <tseng> and then debian includes it
[11:51] <tseng> very good work.
[11:51] <tseng> no dude comeon
[11:51] <tseng> back to the real world
[11:51] <tseng> blam
[11:51] <lucas> tseng: please don't be offensive like that
[11:52] <tseng> i have to change the build deps every time
[11:52] <tseng> same thing for 100s of python stuff we updated to 2.4
[11:52] <tseng> or xorg transition
[11:52] <Nafallo> dbus...
[11:52] <tseng> there is a TON of packages that will not transition cleanly like you presume
[11:52] <lucas> tseng: that's not the kind of packages I'm talking about
[11:53] <tseng> who decides what kind of package it is
[11:53] <zyga> where did wine for breezy go?
[11:53] <zyga> it's not in any archive
[11:53] <zyga> it *is* listed in packages.u.c
[11:53] <tseng> zyga: Filename: pool/universe/w/wine/wine_0.0.20050725-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
[11:53] <tseng> its right there
[11:53] <zyga> hmm.....
[11:53] <zyga> okay, official archive has it
[11:54] <zyga> but my mirror does not, strange
[11:54] <zyga> pl.archive.ubuntu.com
[11:54] <lucas> ruby in ubuntu currently sucks, because there are lots of old packages with bugs in them. I'd like to help to get them back in shape, I have little time, and I am not interested in working on stuff like version changes ahead of debian
[11:56] <zyga> tseng: can you apt-get it?
[11:56] <tseng> im sure i can
[11:57] <zyga> root@falcon:~# LANG=C apt-get install wine
[11:57] <zyga> Reading package lists... Done
[11:57] <zyga> Building dependency tree... Done
[11:57] <zyga> Package wine is not available, but is referred to by another package.
[11:57] <zyga> This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
[11:57] <zyga> is only available from another source
[11:57] <zyga> E: Package wine has no installation candidate
[11:57] <tseng> sigh
[11:57] <lucas> tseng: you confirm that if my change was only a pre-release bugfix, for the next ubuntu release, we can go back to the debian version after *one* manual intervention ?
[11:57] <tseng> its not on your mirror
[11:57] <zyga> tseng: I've switched to archve.u.c
[11:58] <tseng> lucas: one manual intervention per ubuntu modified package.. yes
[11:58] <lucas> ok, thanks
[11:58] <lucas> that's all I wanted to know
[11:58] <zyga> tseng: which archives are you using?
[11:58] <lucas> thanks, I think I'll try to write a summary of how I see the way we (MOTURuby) should maintain ruby pkgs in ubuntu
[11:58] <tseng> archive.ubuntu.com
[11:59] <lucas> zyga: you problem is not a mirror problem
[11:59] <zyga> ...
[11:59] <lucas> do you have universe enabled ?
[11:59] <zyga> yes
[11:59] <tseng> it would be nicer to fix debian
[11:59] <zyga> aaahhh
[11:59] <tseng> but writing doesnt hurt anything
[11:59] <lucas> the fact that it's in pool doesn't mean that it's in your Packages file
[11:59] <zyga> I had apt/preferences
[12:00] <zyga> with wine from official wine repo
[12:00] <zyga> everything is okay now
[12:00] <lucas> tseng: debian ruby packaging works well, and there's a lot of manpower
[12:00] <tseng> then whats the problem
[12:01] <lucas> tseng: wait for my summary :-)
[12:01] <tseng> btw why is ruby-snmp unusuabl out of the box
[12:02] <lucas> tseng: you mean libsnmp-ruby ?
[12:02] <tseng> +1.8, yes