[04:03] <judax> <- Troy Williams
[04:03] <mdke> hello
[04:03] <judax> hiya
[04:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi :)
[04:03] <hno73> <- Henrik Nilsen Omma
[04:04] <mdke> Matthew East
[04:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> Karl Goetz
[04:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> (not on wiki)
[04:04] <rob^> Robert Stoffers
[04:05] <mdke> i will just be in and out, as per my email today
[04:05] <rob^> hmm, looks like I'll have to forward a lot of the agenda to the mailing list
[04:05] <mdke> is jbailey coming?
[04:05] <rob^> not sure
[04:06] <mdke> yeah i was just hilighting him
[04:06] <mdke> :)
[04:06] <rob^> heh
[04:06] <jbailey> Nick highlights in irssi suck.
[04:06] <jbailey> fabbione: Thanks.
[04:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[04:06] <mdke> :)
[04:06] <mdke> hey jeff
[04:06] <jbailey> For some reason they only seem to highlight at the beginning of a sentence.
[04:06] <mdke> jbailey, mine go a different colour if it is in the middle
[04:06] <Mithrandir> jbailey: it does that by default.  Nice feature.
[04:06] <rob^> mmm xchat
[04:07] <mdke> jbailey,  [15:06:53]  hilightwin      /home/matt/.irssi/scripts/autorun/hilightwin.pl
[04:07] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Suck feature.  I miss pings all the time.
[04:07] <mdke> oh no, that's something else
[04:07] <mdke> jbailey, i guess you can set it to hilight in the middle
[04:07] <Mithrandir> jbailey: define your own highlight thingy, then
[04:07] <jbailey> Mithrandir: What I really want is my graphical x-chat do be able to work in a screen session.
[04:08] <jbailey> Mithrandir: But I think I've mentioned this wish to you and you suggested NX
[04:08] <mdke> me too
[04:08] <mdke> anyhow are we go?
[04:08] <Mithrandir> jbailey: yes, true.  Be aware of the crack levels therein.
[04:08] <rob^> yes, I gotta go to work soon
[04:08] <mdke> merging back to trunk: kubuntu has been done already, who is going to do ubuntu stuff?
[04:09] <rob^> what does it intail? just copy/paste?
[04:09] <mdke> i don't know
[04:09] <mdke> there is some clever svn merge thing
[04:09] <jbailey> What it needs is the layout of the repo thought about first.
[04:09] <jbailey> I wound up in the end just hacking things so that they'd work.
[04:09] <jbailey> So it's not just a clean merge back.
[04:09] <mdke> ok
[04:09] <jbailey> Can you move this to after the repo layout item?
[04:09] <jbailey> s/you/we/
[04:09] <mdke> good idea
[04:10] <rob^> can we do that?
[04:10] <mdke> sure, why not?
[04:10] <jbailey> Up to whoever is running the meeting, really. =)
[04:10] <rob^> ie can we merge back to a new layout automagically?
[04:10] <jbailey> Oh. =)
[04:10] <mdke> oh
[04:10] <judax> why not merge back, then chop up?
[04:10] <jbailey> No, it'll be a series of copies, but that won't be hard I don't think.
[04:11] <rob^> oh ok, I thought so
[04:11] <jbailey> The other thought is that if all the work went onto the trunk and the branch, we don't really need to merge anything back.
[04:11] <hno73> why not just import to baz while we are moving stuff around anyway
[04:11] <mdke> jbailey, what about judax's idea there
[04:11] <mdke> hno73, we'd have to take the decision to use baz
[04:11] <hno73> that's meant to have better merging right?
[04:12] <jbailey> Right, but what I'm wondering is if all the data is already on the trunk, what's to merge back except my changes for the packaging which have to be rethought anyway.
[04:12] <hno73> mdke: it seems to be on the agenda
[04:12] <mdke> jbailey, changes made since the branch
[04:12] <mdke> hno73, yeah :)
[04:12] <jbailey> mdke: I thought everyone had been trunking those as well?
[04:12] <mdke> jbailey, nope
[04:12] <jbailey> Ah, okay.
[04:13] <jbailey> Umm.  I guess I'm the most familiar with the stuff, so I should do it.
[04:13] <mdke> i like judax's idea
[04:13] <mdke> merge back and then rearrange directory structure accordingly
[04:13] <rob^> i like jbailey's idea
[04:13] <jbailey> Right, but merging back means what?
[04:13] <judax> I think that would make life easier
[04:13] <jbailey> Rearranging the repo should happen on the trunk, yes.
[04:14] <jbailey> The branch needs to be pretty much considered locked at the point.
[04:14] <mdke> ok, so it's the same idea
[04:14] <rob^> yep
[04:14] <jbailey> Changing it would make doing occasional snapshots quite hard.
[04:15] <mdke> ok so what does the merge entail
[04:15] <mdke> copying anything in the branch that has changed since it was branched right?
[04:15] <jbailey> mdke: Right, except in cases where people have contributed stuff on the trunk.
[04:16] <mdke> when are we gonna do it?
[04:17] <jbailey> Can do this afternoon or maybe Monday.
[04:17] <jbailey> I'll try this afternoon so it doesn't block people.
[04:17] <judax> you can examine the changes in the working copy (trunk) and the branch
[04:17] <judax> by doing a --dry-run
[04:18] <rob^> nice one
[04:18] <jbailey> Yeah.
[04:18] <jbailey> diff is my friend, too. =)
[04:18] <jbailey> I don't think svn has much of a concept of merging changesets from branches to the trunk (like bzr would)
[04:19] <mdke> ok cool
[04:19] <mdke> shall we move on
[04:20] <rob^> ok
[04:20] <rob^> gonna be hard seeing as hes not here..
[04:20] <mdke> UBZ is a bit of a red herring afaics because only corey will be there, there might not be much docs discussion
[04:20] <jbailey> I will be as well, but I'm not sure how my time will be spread out.
[04:21] <mdke> yeah
[04:21] <mdke> perhaps the best thing is to play it by ear and comment on any relevant BOFs on the mailing list?
[04:21] <judax> there is a nice chapter in the svnbook (svnbook.red-bean.com) about Branching and Merging, just FYI
[04:21] <jbailey> judax: Thanks, I'll reread it.
[04:21] <rob^> mdke, sounds like a good idea
[04:22] <rob^> the only thing I'm concerned about is some of the stuff mentioned in the BOFs
[04:22] <jbailey> judax: I have the page bookmarked for how to do .cvsignore equivalents. =)
[04:22] <jbailey> rob^: Like what?
[04:22] <mdke> rob^, don't forget bof's are just ideas
[04:22] <judax> jbailey: ah :)
[04:22] <rob^> things like in line help are a little pie-in-the-sky
[04:23] <rob^> ms has been doing it for years anyway with their question mark thing, and no body cares about that either
[04:23] <rob^> in the end I expect pretty much the status quo to happen anyway
[04:24] <jbailey> rob^: It would be interesting to get a commitment from mdz and sabdfl that all specs must have a documentation component to them in order to be complete.
[04:24] <jbailey> I don't know if it's doable or not.
[04:24] <rob^> jbailey, thats a lot of work
[04:24] <jbailey> rob^: It's far more work for the docteam to do it after the fact.
[04:24] <Kamion> some specs are just "fix <deep thing>"
[04:25] <jbailey> Kamion: Sure, but should that fix not be documented so that it's understood after?
[04:25] <Kamion> I think we'd want a little more selectivity than a blanket requirement
[04:25] <jbailey> Kamion: Mmm.  When I think of the specs that I went to at UDU, most of them could've used at least some basic documentation.  It would be nicer if it were an "apply for exception".
[04:25] <Kamion> depends on how much the person who scheduled the BOF knew about the code - I've had specs that were utterly obvious
[04:26] <rob^> I'm thinking that such a change would mean we would be forking everything from upstream, ie adding lots of code to each program
[04:26] <Kamion> as long as there's an exception process, no problem
[04:27] <rob^> ubuntu already gets accused of being a Debian fork, this would only serve to make it worse I think
[04:28] <Kamping_Kaiser> jbailey: what do you mean by 'doc component' in a spec?
[04:28] <jbailey> rob^: I see less of those accusations now that the random nay-sayers are getting ignored =)
[04:28] <rob^> heh
[04:28] <rob^> I'm not saying it is, but why give them more ammunition?
[04:29] <mdke> i think you two are talking at cross purposes, jbailey's proposal was not to add code to every program
[04:29] <mdke> as i understand it
[04:29] <mdke> he is just saying, specs should be documented
[04:29] <rob^> how else would you implement in line help?
[04:29] <jbailey> Kamping_Kaiser: What I'd like to see is that we build up a documentation set for Ubuntu.  But the problem is that the docteam is just a small group of people not involved in the development.  I would like to see the coders responsible for creating the needed documentation as part of completeing the spec (So before payment of the bounty, or whatnot)
[04:29] <mdke> rob^, he is not talking about in line help at all afaics
[04:30] <jbailey> Sorry, I was still mention things for UBZ
[04:30] <rob^> mdke, thats what I was on about
[04:30] <Kamping_Kaiser> jbailey: so the programers write all/some help, and what does the docteam do? make it usefull? other?
[04:31] <mdke> rob^, true but that doesn't stop the subject from being changed
[04:31] <rob^> mdke, heh yeah
[04:31] <jeffsch> the docteam can edit it and de-geekify it so users can understand it
[04:31] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol. i see. well put jeffsch :)
[04:31] <mdke> the problem is really that the docteam only has a handful of contributors
[04:31] <apokryphos> if you don't mind me saying, the job of the coder is to code; we don't wanna waste their time with documentation (hence a docteam), but of course it's good to have coordination between these
[04:31] <mdke> at least at the moment
[04:31] <mdke> apokryphos, that is quite a controversial statement
[04:32] <apokryphos> I stand by it
[04:32] <mdke> lots of people accept that part of writing programs is documenting them
[04:32] <jbailey> I don't think I know any programmer who has the task of just coding.  There's always meetings, documentation, end-user troubleshooting, etc.
[04:32] <apokryphos> small things like those; but, for example, it shouldn't be a coders job (per se) to write a handbook for a given app
[04:33] <Kamping_Kaiser> not a handbook, a basic help to help the doc team, surely?
[04:33] <apokryphos> in my ideal, you have a given docteam, who tries/uses the given application, and coordinates with the programmer on questions; the doccer takes note of these, then documents them
[04:33] <judax> not full-on documentation, but at least 'spec-form' documentation
[04:34] <apokryphos> the way I've always done things in the past, is just arrange to have a chat with the person in question online; have a quick talk asking questions etc, then go away and write it up
[04:34] <apokryphos> (quite like a reporter, in some ways)
[04:34] <rob^> whos going to have the time to round all these up and de-geekify them anyway?
[04:34] <jbailey> rob^: Well, it's best-effort. =)
[04:35] <rob^> heh
[04:35] <jbailey> I tend to think that if we ship geeky documentation, that it will still be an improvement on shipping just three documents like we did now.
[04:35] <rob^> I wonder if we can wiki-ify them to allow anyone to help us
[04:35] <jbailey> My thought is that the people implementing the specs should have some interest in seeing the documentation written.
[04:36] <apokryphos> basic user documentation is probably paramount, but more geeky documentation is necessary for giving other users the better user-experience
[04:36] <apokryphos> jbailey: definitely
[04:36] <Kamion> apokryphos: handbook-style documentation definitely isn't appropriate for every development task. In many cases (non-end-user-facing ones), comments or a simple document for developers is sufficient and the developer should write those
[04:37] <apokryphos> definitely; things like "What's This" help are of course the job of the coder
[04:37] <rob^> apokryphos, thats what I was touching on before
[04:40] <rob^> shall we move on?
[04:40] <Kamping_Kaiser> going back to jbaileys comment on 'geeky doc is better then nothing', im not sure thats always right. rob^ and the ohter auther of the faq have a great intro text, but i cant see a user wanting to go deeper into geeky help untill they feel comfortable. that faq and similar help is requiered
[04:40] <jjesse> too late?
[04:40] <mdke> no, hi
[04:40] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi  :)
[04:40] <jjesse> sorry had to solve an emergency at work
[04:41] <mdke> shall we progress to the next agenda item?
[04:41] <mdke> or do people have more points about docs at UBZ
[04:41] <Kamion> Kamping_Kaiser: that's "not optimal" certainly but doesn't refute "better than nothing", I think
[04:42] <rob^> it would be nice to get something for each program, but unless someone wants to stand up and do all the work it will probably just mostly go to waste
[04:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> Kamion: sure. and i dont mind about next item fwiw
[04:43] <rob^> any more for any more?
[04:43] <mdke> ok translations - does anyone want more information than I've set out in my email to the list today?
[04:43] <rob^> no, it all sounds good mdke 
[04:44] <rob^> any idea of time frame?
[04:44] <judax> that covers it, imho
[04:44] <Kamping_Kaiser> i didnt realy follow, but i havent seen it in action :|
[04:44] <rob^> Kamping_Kaiser, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/3521
[04:44] <mdke> i had originally said about a month
[04:44] <rob^> ok
[04:44] <mdke> because that is about time of language-packs
[04:44] <rob^> oh ok cool
[04:45] <mdke> but i don't think that is a major thing
[04:45] <jbailey> Yay, langpacks.
[04:45] <Kamping_Kaiser> ta rob^
[04:45] <rob^> np
[04:46] <mdke> jbailey, got any issues about translation updates?
[04:46] <jbailey> mdke: Nope.  Just need to figure out the langpack thing with Martin.
[04:46] <jsgotangco> bloody hell
[04:47] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol
[04:47] <jsgotangco> mirc has the lousiest interface ever
[04:47] <rob^> heh
[04:47] <mdke> jbailey, well that is for dapper. We're on breezy
[04:47] <jbailey> mdke: Right, sorry.
[04:47] <jbailey> None for breezy. =)
[04:48] <mdke> cool
[04:48] <rob^> next
[04:48] <rob^> sorry, I have to get up in ~4 hours for work
[04:49] <jbailey> Big picture stuff for dapper - for me is just langpacks and nightly snapshots.
[04:49] <jsgotangco> snapshots +1
[04:49] <jjesse> snapshots of ?
[04:49] <jbailey> jjesse: The trunk of the repository
[04:49] <jbailey> Uploaded weekly to dapper for wider review.
[04:50] <jjesse> jbailey: which will then include the kubuntu-docs?
[04:50] <rob^> snapshots is good
[04:50] <jbailey> jjesse: I'm not clear on what we should do for that.  I'm a bit concerned that the docteam is reponsible for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu (per the agenda)
[04:50] <jsgotangco> well we can ask Ridell for that....
[04:51] <jbailey> jjesse: I'm not really clear how much there is in common between them and if they should really be done out of the same repository.
[04:51] <jbailey> In terms of producing snapshots, though, no skin off my teeth. =)
[04:51] <jjesse> did i miss the discussion of the infrastructure?
[04:51] <judax> jjesse: no
[04:51] <jbailey> It'll be largely automated.
[04:51] <jjesse> i can talk to Riddell about the daily snapshots of kubuntu dapper including the docs
[04:52] <jbailey> jjesse: Cool.  I just don't want to see all of those treated as second-class citizens.
[04:52] <jbailey> jjesse: But I'm not sure the best way to do that.
[04:53] <jjesse> jbailey: don't worry i'll keep bugging Riddell for any help i need we have worked together for the breezy docs
[04:53] <mdke> jbailey, why are you concerned about the docteam doing ubuntu, kubuntu etc? there is only one docteam, not more than one.
[04:53] <jbailey> mdke: I'm wondering how the docteam decides whether it cares about a derivative or not.
[04:53] <mdke> jbailey, it's a question of having willing contributors
[04:53] <rob^> I hope this bloody thunderstorm goes away or I'm gonna have to go
[04:53] <jbailey> mdke: Like, someone decides to do Xubuntu.  Does it suddenly become the docteams responsibility?
[04:54] <judax> it seems that way
[04:54] <mdke> jbailey, i think that would be a question for the team, but certainly it has decided to include kubuntu
[04:54] <mdke> and jerome has done work on edubuntu
[04:55] <apokryphos> jbailey: it cares about them if they're official projects, I'd imagine (i.e. being in MAIN etc)
[04:55] <rob^> if its *ubuntu and someone wants to write docs sure
[04:56] <jjesse> what you would get is teams that only have 1 member
[04:56] <jsgotangco> i don't want to do work on some other svn for sure
[04:56] <jjesse> agreed jsgotangco 
[04:56] <jbailey> Right.
[04:56] <jsgotangco> i'd say we remove the upstream stuff though...
[04:56] <jsgotangco> the current trunk is like 250MB
[04:56] <jbailey> I just don't want suddenly it to become "do your own derivative, have the docteam take care of it"
[04:57] <judax> that is where you have a problem though, you need to do what is right for the distro
[04:57] <mdke> jbailey, yeah, the team can decide what to work on
[04:57] <jbailey> Half of the model of Ubuntu is to make it easy to do derivatives.  So making it easy to derive the docs should be part of that.
[04:57] <rob^> maybe, but that doesn't mean we have to accept them
[04:57] <jbailey> I wonder if having it all in one source package works towards that.  I don't have the thoughts all clear in my head.
[04:57] <mdke> obviously we need to build contributors for ubuntu and kubuntu, but if people want to work on other ubuntu-related, that is cool
[04:58] <jsgotangco> i'd like to focus on Partner Projects
[04:58] <mdke> jbailey, we can have separate source packages, and one repository with a number of separate directories, as suggested by rob^ 
[04:58] <jsgotangco> so that's 3 projects
[04:58] <jjesse> shouldn't we have a "head" of ubuntu-docs a 
[04:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> if somone has comit on svn, can they commit to an project corrently? or can it be restricted?
[04:58] <rob^> jbailey, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamRepositoryLayout
[04:59] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: its an open svn :)
[04:59] <rob^> Kamping_Kaiser, no all
[04:59] <jjesse> "head" of kubuntu-docs and "head" of edubuntu-docs, etc
[04:59] <jbailey> rob^: Cool.  I save comments until the right part of the agenda.
[04:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok :| thats not helpfull ;O
[04:59] <jbailey> (Lagging a bit, conference call)
[04:59] <mdke> it is true that we need to encourage contribution to partner projects before we can have the manpower to contribute on things like xubuntu
[05:00] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:00] <mdke> anyhow, what other big pictures for dapper?
[05:00] <jjesse> i will focus on kubuntu
[05:00] <mdke> we need to think about what docs to write
[05:01] <jsgotangco> let's make the specs again from DocteamProjects
[05:01] <jjesse> for dapper i have started wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
[05:01] <rob^> mdke, as a side thing I would like to get some of the upstream xubuntu docs and have them available maybe with modification in xubuntu
[05:01] <jsgotangco> upstream xubuntu?
[05:01] <rob^> I mean xfce
[05:01] <rob^> they have an svn repo
[05:01] <jsgotangco> please make efforts as much as possible to look at upstream work just in case :)
[05:02] <jsgotangco> or fix our upstream as well :) (scrollkeeper borkage)
[05:02] <rob^> thats what I have been/am going to do
[05:02] <jsgotangco> for gnome, there's current upstream 2.12 on the works, but not optimistic about it :)
[05:03] <rob^> xfce have a nice user guide
[05:03] <mdke> are we going to try and complete the ubuntu userguide?
[05:03] <mdke> it has a distinct aim from the faqguide, but overlaps in many respects
[05:04] <rob^> yes, I did a lot of work during breezy to not overlap as much as possible
[05:04] <mdke> i would favour trying to get it back up and running
[05:04] <jjesse> mdke: for kubuntu docs that i have started to focus on for dapper please see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
[05:04] <mdke> jjesse, ok, you need to mark things in DocteamProjects if you can
[05:05] <jsgotangco> jjesse: we have to update the KQuickGuide though...
[05:05] <jsgotangco> even halfway...
[05:05] <jsgotangco> at least there won't be that much changes for Dapper unless we actually see KDE 3.5 :)
[05:05] <jjesse> jsgotangco: yes we do, update it all the way, quickguide release notes, userguide are the ones
[05:05] <rob^> jjesse, do we still want to use kudos for a kubuntu faq guide?
[05:05] <jjesse> rob^: yes i have seen some requests in #kubuntu for faq guide
[05:06] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:06] <jjesse> rob^: maybe we can work together on that one
[05:06] <judax> kudos would be a good start
[05:06] <rob^> jjesse, I'd like to have it done for dapper
[05:06] <rob^> jjesse, sure
[05:06] <jjesse> rob^: ok
[05:07] <rob^> jjesse, does kudos have an xml version by any chance?
[05:07] <jsgotangco> none
[05:08] <jsgotangco> we can grep it though
[05:08] <jjesse> sorry kudus is?
[05:08] <judax> it is like ubuntuguide.org
[05:08] <jjesse> ah
[05:08] <rob^> jjesse, the kubuntu unofficial faq guide
[05:08] <jsgotangco> that's the kubuntu faqguide...
[05:08] <rob^> yeah
[05:08] <rob^> I'd like to use that to save work
[05:08] <jjesse> do i need to get permission to create a docbook file of that from someone?
[05:08] <rob^> we need to check the licences
[05:08] <jsgotangco> if its licensed accordingly, you can use it
[05:09] <rob^> I think sean said we have premission to use it under our current licences though
[05:09] <jsgotangco> but dig the list archive for details
[05:09] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:09] <jsgotangco> i asked the author about it
[05:09] <judax> didn't sean talk to the author?
[05:09] <jsgotangco> me and sean
[05:09] <rob^> apparently
[05:09] <jsgotangco> we have permission
[05:09] <judax> jsgotangco: ok
[05:09] <rob^> ok
[05:09] <jsgotangco> we'll just see if its updated
[05:09] <jsgotangco> its in berlios
[05:09] <rob^> an xml?
[05:10] <jjesse> i heard on #kubuntu that it's not updated
[05:10] <jsgotangco> (actually its a good ton of work)
[05:10] <jsgotangco> rob^: we wish
[05:10] <jjesse> but haven't checked myself
[05:10] <rob^> jsgotangco, yes we do :)
[05:10] <jsgotangco> its quite good....very visual for an faqguide
[05:10] <rob^> do we have premission to use the site as is?
[05:10] <rob^> ie can I copy it from there tomorrow?
[05:10] <jsgotangco> well that's another story
[05:11] <judax> does not look updated to me atm
[05:11] <jsgotangco> we asked the author to work in svn before, but he declined
[05:11] <rob^> I'd like to start some work on that in about 6 hours if I could
[05:11] <jsgotangco> rob^: no rush, focus on your xubuntu :)
[05:11] <rob^> heh
[05:11] <jsgotangco> we can take kde from here :)
[05:11] <jjesse> jsgotangco: do you want to create the file or should i?
[05:12] <rob^> ok
[05:12] <rob^> I'll just follow your lead
[05:13] <jsgotangco> i'll fix the kquickguide first
[05:13] <rob^> ok can we move on?
[05:13] <jsgotangco> i'll grep the kudos site later when i get home
[05:14] <mdke> help.ubuntu.com and doc.ubuntu.com on the new server are now available for all to see
[05:14] <rob^> holy heck its pouring outside
[05:14] <mdke> comments to the mailing list i would say, otherwise we'll be here for hours
[05:14] <jsgotangco> mdke: both are in server pronto already?
[05:14] <mdke> yes
[05:14] <mdke> refresh your caches
[05:14] <jsgotangco> good good
[05:15] <rob^> no css on doc.u.c?
[05:15] <hno73> :)
[05:15] <mdke> rob^, eh?
[05:15] <apokryphos> re: kudos. They guy seems generally pretty understanding, but has very big plans
[05:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> rob^: got none here
[05:15] <rob^> hmm no there we go mdke 
[05:15] <apokryphos> (said he wanted to make most of the steps into shell scripts, so users could just run them)
[05:15] <rob^> apokryphos, ouch
[05:16] <judax> yikes
[05:16] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm.
[05:16] <apokryphos> in some ways suffers some of the same blunders as ubuntuguide guy, but kudos-guy said he did plan to add more explanations (which would be cool). The whole idea, he says, is a proof of concept (Linux being user-friendly etc)
[05:16] <rob^> each to their own I guess
[05:17] <mdke> k, back to help.ubuntu.com, some things to discuss as per my email
[05:17] <apokryphos> there's some really useful stuff (I incorporated some stuff into kde docs), like the given Linux application with win/mac equivalent -- very handy for newbies
[05:17] <mdke> 1. whether to include translations
[05:17] <judax> yes, that matrix is nice
[05:17] <mdke> 2. whether and how to include the bar and side panel to all docs
[05:18] <mdke> 3. please fix the kde docs so I can add them
[05:18] <rob^> 1 - yes I think we should
[05:19] <rob^> 2 - Yes, I think we should
[05:19] <mdke> i think we shouldn't, because I think that locoteams will want to host their own
[05:19] <mdke> -fr and -it are already in that process
[05:19] <mdke> and they will no doubt change things like appearance to make the guides in tune with their websites
[05:19] <rob^> :)
[05:19] <mdke> also, it will get messy if we host 30 translations
[05:19] <rob^> can we alter the html on help.u.c at all?
[05:19] <rob^> mdke, maybe we can have an additional translations page
[05:19] <mdke> rob^, comments about the page itself are probably best postponed to the list imo
[05:19] <rob^> yep
[05:19] <mdke> but sure, we can change anything
[05:20] <mdke> it's our server
[05:20] <rob^> hmm nice
[05:20] <mdke> i had thought, a link to a list of the various locoteam webpages
[05:20] <rob^> oh crap
[05:21] <rob^> I gotta go, the thunderstorm outside is getting pretty bad
[05:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> later rob^ :) 
[05:21] <mdke> bye
[05:21] <rob^> cyas
[05:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> later
[05:21] <whiprush> did I miss the meeting?
[05:21] <mdke> so does anyone else have any thoughts about translations? perhaps we can ask the locoteams themselves? they would be well placed to offer advice
[05:21] <jsgotangco> whiprush: not much :)
[05:21] <whiprush> whew
[05:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: ask locos on the list? i dont hav any ideas about it
[05:22] <jsgotangco> mdke: add them to d.u.c.? nice idea although we'll have to get their work or they upload it themselves (bit of work)
[05:22] <jeffsch> mdke: link to all translations; some will be hosted locally, others on translation team sites
[05:22] <mdke> jeffsch, that will take quite a bit of maintaining
[05:22] <mdke> jsgotangco, no, not their work, translations of the docteam stuff
[05:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> this would be hard, but on a help page offer links to the same page translated by the doco teams?
[05:23] <hno73> mdke: not if it's a wiki page :)
[05:23] <jsgotangco> it'd be nice if we can just link 'em but if we got a nice server why not...
[05:23] <Riddell> mdke: what's the status of translations at the moment?
[05:23] <hno73> then teams can update the links themselves
[05:23] <jsgotangco> aye, like the one in edubuntu....
[05:23] <mdke> Riddell, for ubuntu-docs the status is at http://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-docs
[05:23] <mdke> hno73, nice idea
[05:24] <mdke> Riddell, kubuntu stuff isn't translated
[05:25] <mdke> hno73, have you got moin up on there already?
[05:25] <hno73> mdke: no, but I expect it to be up later today
[05:25] <mdke> cool
[05:25] <hno73> I have a side menu thing working in moin now
[05:25] <jsgotangco> wow
[05:26] <hno73> so we can have the same side menu as the rest of the site
[05:26] <mdke> excellent
[05:26] <jsgotangco> hno73: is the frontpage of the edubuntu.org site in moin too? it has a side menu thing
[05:26] <jjesse> i have to split have another work meeting :(
[05:26] <jsgotangco> later jjesse
[05:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> :( later jjesse
[05:27] <mdke> bye
[05:27] <judax> bye jjesse 
[05:27] <hno73> jsgotangco: no, that's plain html
[05:27] <judax> mdke: concerning #3, I just built kak (About Kubuntu), what problem are you experiencing
[05:27] <hno73> but it would be nice to make it moin based
[05:28] <Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
[05:28] <jbailey> I think we've lost a pile of people.  Should we punt the other items to next time?
[05:28] <mdke> judax, i'm experiencing this: http://help.ubuntu.com/kde/about-kubuntu/C/
[05:29] <mdke> jbailey, yes we can, or pursue them on the mailing list
[05:29] <Riddell> mdke: that's using the KDE non-web stylesheet
[05:29] <judax> mdke: the style
[05:29] <mdke> yes
[05:30] <mdke> if that can be sorted out, I'll put em up and link em
[05:30] <Riddell> you want to use the KDE web stylesheet, which is in a top secret place.  or just a normal stylesheet
[05:31] <judax> what stylesheet do you want
[05:31] <mdke> Riddell, either way, if you fix it, I'll build it and put it up on that site
[05:32] <Riddell> mdke: what do I need to fix?  what's the command used to generate that?
[05:32] <judax> make kak
[05:32] <Riddell> We probably need a make kak-web
[05:34] <mdke> ok
[05:34] <mdke> also for whatever other documents to be hosted online
[05:34] <jsgotangco> ahhh Riddell you seem to have svn access now?
[05:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> are we still meeting?
[05:36] <jsgotangco> well i can't stay long, i'm still outside, its almost midnight here, need to catch a cab
[05:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> doestn seem like ther will be mucht o check
[05:37] <mdke> ok we're done i think
[05:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. fair enough
[05:37] <mdke> we need to chase up this directory structure, use of gnome-doc-utils build stuff at a later date
[05:38] <judax> ok
[05:38] <jsgotangco> ah so we're stalemate on the structure?
[05:38] <jsgotangco> is it merged already?
[05:38] <mdke> we didn't get that far
[05:38] <judax> merge first
[05:39] <jsgotangco> ok sounds good
[05:39] <mdke> shall I prepare an announcement for help.ubuntu.com?
[05:39] <mdke> hno73?
[05:39] <hno73> mdke: sure, thanks
[05:39] <mdke> great
[05:40] <judax> take care all
[05:40] <Kamping_Kaiser> :) 
[05:40] <jsgotangco> ok gotta go too
[05:40] <mdke> hno73, will you link it in www.u.c/support?
[05:40] <Kamping_Kaiser> sounds like it done then :)
[05:41] <jsgotangco> ok guys later
[05:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
[05:42] <hno73> mdke: yepp. Shall we launch now or on monday?
[05:42] <mdke> up to you
[05:42] <hno73> the wiki stuff isn't ready
[05:42] <mdke> true
[05:42] <mdke> that will take a while
[05:42] <hno73> but that can come later I guess
[05:42] <mdke> and things can be added gradually
[05:42] <hno73> cool, ok
[05:47] <mdke> Riddell, ping me if you manage to sort that kak-web thing out :)
[05:49] <Riddell> ok
[05:56] <cyphase> hey everyone
[05:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi
[06:05] <whiprush> mdke: if you need something announced on the fridge let me know.
[06:05] <whiprush> I'd like to showcase more docteam stuff on it.
[06:07] <mdke> cool
[06:07] <mdke> if I ever get onto planet I'll do it there too
[06:07] <mdke> whiprush, i'll copy you the announcement? are you jorge@u.c?
[06:08] <whiprush> I'm always on irc so ping me when you want something done.
[06:08] <whiprush> I don't have a u.c address yet.
[06:08] <whiprush> fridge-devel@ works though
[06:08] <mdke> ok
[06:08] <whiprush> jdub can run stuff also, but he's on tour. :p
[06:09] <mdke> yup
[10:14] <Treenaks> http://foodfight.org/movies/2005-10%20Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/
[10:20] <mvo> Treenaks: nice!
[10:20] <Treenaks> mvo: thanks :)
[10:20] <Treenaks> mvo: I'll take my cam to UBZ, so you can try it too :)
[10:21] <ajmitch> heh
[10:21] <mvo> haha, jeff is the best!
[10:23] <ajmitch> haha
[10:23] <Treenaks> mvo: try Jono Bacon too
[10:24] <Riddell> I've never seen any of the films Jono has taken
[10:25] <Riddell> wrong channel for this but
[10:26] <mvo> Treenaks: hahaha
[10:26] <ajmitch> :)
[10:27] <mvo> that's going to be fun
[11:21] <senecastudent> Hello everyone
[11:22] <senecastudent> anyone in here?