[12:02] <sivang> \sh: I am also getting Dirk Gently's "Long, Dark tea hour of the sould" together with "Salmons of Doubt"
[12:02] <sivang> s/sould/soul/
[12:03] <\sh> sivang: i have the 4 parts of the guide in german+english..the dirk gently books (only in german :()
[12:03] <sivang> \sh: :-)
[12:04] <sivang> \sh: I've never heared a dirk gently's yet
[12:04] <sivang> \sh: s/heared/read/
[12:04] <sivang> \sh: the hour does it's work on me :)
[12:05] <\sh> sivang: actually dirk gently more fun to read...when u read that odin is laying in a bed of an asylum.and that all the time an eagle is hunting down dirk gently...
[12:06] <\sh> sivang: totally weired...but funny...
[12:07] <sivang> \sh: so it sounds :) I'm really looking forward to getting it 
[12:10] <\sh> I think i change now to bed..and starting up the other laptop
[12:10] <kbrooks> so. hi
[12:11] <sivang> \sh: wow, you're continuing from bed with the laptop? when do you sleep?
[12:11] <sivang> hey kbrooks 
[12:11] <\sh> sivang: i just slept 15h since yesterday
[12:12] <sivang> \sh: wow, had lots of work with the transitions over work?
[12:13] <\sh> sivang: the planning is quite a lot of work..but the last days I was even during night at work...and today as well...
[12:13] <\sh> sivang: i'm just happy that my holiday starts on thursday...and on saturday I'm sitting in the plane to ubz..
[12:14] <sivang> \sh: same here :)
[12:14] <kbrooks> ubz? ubuntu below zero?
[12:14] <\sh> yepp
[12:14] <sivang> \sh: when we started rolling the project at work, we worked almost 13-16 hours a day, it was a pain
[12:14] <\sh> sivang: i
[12:15] <\sh> sivang: i'm preparing some new packages for pykde in the meantime and play with bzr
[12:15] <sivang> \sh: cool, I should start playing with it as well
[12:15] <sivang> \sh: is it much different in its interface then baz?
[12:16] <sivang> (I've heared it has memory and speed improvements)
[12:16] <\sh> sivang: to be honest...i think i only played with tla once...for a short time...and i'm new to this baz/bzr/tla stuff ... i'll need a short, intensive jblack sprint at ubz for those tools :)
[12:17] <\sh> sivang: to have an overview (also regarding the LP stuff)
[12:17] <sivang> \sh: when you do, pull me in ok? I'd need that as well. I've only used baz for mostly RO operations, so it'd be nice to have this session with him :)
[12:19] <\sh> sivang: i think a beer coaster will do as whiteboard replacement ;)
[12:19] <sivang> \sh: hahah
[12:19] <sivang> \sh: too bad I don't really drink, with all this talking about beer etc :)
[12:23] <\sh> sivang: well...there is no need to drink alcohol at all :) but a beer coaster is a must to write some phonenumbers or use it for brainstorming sessions while u r sitting in a pub ,)
[12:27] <sivang> \sh: this is the piece of wood/paper you put the beer glass on ?
[12:28] <\sh> sivang: yepp paper :)
[12:29] <sivang> \sh: ah so now I know what you meant by "coaster"
[12:29] <sivang> \sh: :)
[12:30] <sivang> \sh: can you conduct an intense packaging session for me over ubz? (guessing you're to packaging, like jblack is to bzr) :-)
[12:30] <sivang> \sh: rather, a sprint
[12:32] <\sh> sivang: i think thats possible
[12:32] <\sh> ok..will change my place from desk to bed ,)
[12:33] <sivang> \sh: sure, btw I'll appriciate it :)
[12:34] <sivang> \sh: maybe we can come up with imroving your package-source-from-scratch wiki page
[12:35] <\sh> sivang: oh..sure..yes...remove the whole wiki page and rewrite now after having more experience *eg*
[12:35] <sivang> \sh: :)
[12:35] <\sh> sivang: thats my plan...
[12:36] <\sh> k...switching location
[01:14] <sivang> nite all
[01:15] <Seveas> nite
[01:49] <Riddell> jdub: you don't want to know what it means in portugese
[01:50] <jdub> wait
[01:50] <jdub> no
[01:50] <jdub> really, i do
[01:58] <Seveas> Riddell/jdub: I'm setting up hostname cloaks on freenode. Do you want one?
[02:00] <crimsun> you're the group contact?
[02:00] <Riddell> Seveas: I already have a KDE one
[02:00] <Seveas> crimsun, yes
[02:00] <Seveas> Riddell, you can choose (and maybe even combine)
[02:01] <jdub> Seveas: i am ok, thanks
[02:36] <ajmitch> afternoon 
[02:37] <crimsun> hi ajmitch 
[02:48] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch, crimsun 
[02:48] <crimsun> hey bddebian 
[04:47] <jody_lap> The version of gnumeric in breezy is broken.  Unfortunately the 1.6.0 version missed inclusion by a few days, and 1.5.90 has a crasher that's hitting alot of users.  Is it possible to get an update with 1.6.0 pushed ?
[05:15] <pupil> Hi guys,. I want to utilize pxe boot or etherboot for a wireless card ( DWL-G510 Wireless Adapter)  I am not sure how to go about doing this
[05:21] <_maydayjay_> pupil - PXE only working on wired from the looks of all the info in the wiki....probably should ask this on #ubuntu
[05:22] <pupil> _maydayjay_, I was hoping to add madwifi to the sources somehow to add my card to the probe .
[05:23] <pupil> _maydayjay_, well not all of madwifi,. but support for my wireless card.. I'm not sure how I'm gonna do it,. cause I need this to boot from hardrive,. so I have enough space.
[05:25] <pupil> Lathiat, there would certainly be more configuration, as far as the card goes...
[05:25] <Lathiat> pupil: i have my doubts as to whether its supported
[05:25] <Lathiat> pupil: good luck i gues, 
[05:25] <pupil> Lathiat, I don't think its supported,. but I think I can hack it out
[05:26] <pupil> Lathiat, my card is supported,. all I need to be able to do is be able to detect and configure it to detect dhcp
[05:27] <pupil> Lathiat,  there are wireless cards that support wake on lan
[05:28] <pupil> I'm a little over my head though,. would love some help
[05:28] <Lathiat> pupil: WoL is totally separate to netbooting
[05:28] <pupil> Lathiat, right.
[05:28] <pupil> heh
[05:29] <pupil> Lathiat, do you think its possible to netboot from wireless adapter?
[05:29] <Lathiat> pupil: no actual idea
[05:29] <pupil> hmm
[05:30] <Lathiat> pupil: try the pxe mailing lists/irc channels or whatever
[05:43] <_maydayjay_> pupil - if wireless is essential you could use a wireless to ethernet bridge device to get around this.
[05:44] <pupil> _maydayjay_, what do you mean?
[05:45] <pupil> _maydayjay_, I don't see how it would solve problem,. because when coputer starts,. ith as to detect wireless card,. first issue.,. then  it has to look for dhcp
[05:50] <_maydayjay_> pupil - wireless to ethernet bridge is a box that acts as a wireless client and converts the link to a wired ethernet jack - connect that to an ethernet(wired) interface on the computer you are trying to do PXE with.
[05:51] <pupil> _maydayjay_,  ic,. I found an intersting site .. but I'm unclear as to whether he is booting from wiresless adapter,. 
[05:51] <pupil> _maydayjay_, http://nlug.org/mail/nlug__2001_04/0338.html
[05:51] <jayakumar2> _maydayjay_, i have not seen a bios based pxe client that knows about any wifi chip
[05:52] <pupil> jayakumar2, maybe its time to make one
[05:52] <pupil> jayakumar2, its not like wireless home network is uncomon
[05:53] <Amaranth> pupil: good luck with that
[05:53] <pupil> lol
[05:53] <Amaranth> pupil: I can see it _maybe_ being possible for intel to do it with their wireless laptop setup
[05:53] <Amaranth> otherwise you'd need a new bios everytime you got a new card
[05:53] <jayakumar2> i don't think i've even seen pxe support for usb eth
[05:54] <_maydayjay_> pupil - LTSP has a wireless package.  You are more than likely going to need to create a bootable CD.
[05:54] <_maydayjay_> brb
[05:54] <pupil> Amaranth, all I'm saying is to start you'd have to be able to compile the driver into whatever pxe your using,. and then have a script to set it up
[05:54] <jayakumar2> Amaranth, i believe most eth chips have a prom that implements the x86 pxe interface (set of inb/outb calls)
[05:55] <jayakumar2> so i would assume if a wifi chip implemented the same interface
[05:55] <pupil> _maydayjay_, what do you mean wireless package,.?  you mean boot from wireless card?
[05:55] <Amaranth> jayakumar2: then couldn't we use that to write a generic driver for all cards?
[05:55] <jayakumar2> Amaranth, yes, that's correct. pxe clients all use that same generic interface
[05:55] <pupil> _maydayjay_, yeah,. bootable cd is right
[05:56] <jayakumar2> that's why pxe can fit in a 256kbit flash for bios
[05:56] <Amaranth> what does regular network access need that isn't available with the pxe api?
[05:57] <pupil> could this be the begginings of a new project
[05:57] <jayakumar2> i don't know. i'd have to check the pxe spec. it should all be in there except it'd be slow since it'd be IO based
[05:57] <Amaranth> sure, but it'd be better than nothing for cards without real drivers
[05:58] <jayakumar2> agreed
[06:01] <_maydayjay_> pupil - here is the announcement about the LTSP wireless support http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=686348&forum_id=2543
[06:02] <pupil> _maydayjay_, thank you
[06:05] <rockie>  hi you all ,how to recover my gpg key from keyserver
[06:05] <Amaranth> rockie: If you've lost the private key there is no way to get it back.
[06:05] <Amaranth> rockie: The private key never goes to the keyserver.
[06:06] <pupil> _maydayjay_, take a look  http://www.route1.com/
[06:06] <pupil> _maydayjay_, I went there for an interview...
[06:07] <rockie> my home direction was deleted 
[06:07] <rockie> It's mean that I shall re-upload my key again?
[06:08] <Amaranth> rockie: Unless you made a backup of your key it is lost forever and anything you used it with can't be used anymore until the new key is registered
[06:08] <Amaranth> rockie: so if you had your key signed by anyone or used it for logins you need to do all of that over again
[06:09] <Amaranth> rockie: but you can just make a new key and register it with a keyserver again, sure
[06:09] <pupil> IT CAN BE DONE
[06:09] <pupil> http://www.freebsddiary.org/wireless-install.php
[06:09] <pupil> Read em and weep
[06:10] <rockie> thanks 
[06:12] <pupil> you guys reading that?
[06:13] <_maydayjay_> pupil - good find - if it can be done on FreeBSD then it's doable on linux...  Or you could just use the freebsd solution if all you want is a thin client.
[06:13] <pupil> _maydayjay_, true,. but,. I'm on ubuntu,. maybe a port is possible,. 
[06:15] <ajmitch> all that appears to show is booting off a floppy, not pxe
[06:15] <pupil> ajmitch, its a start
[06:16] <pupil> I'm thinkin boot cd
[06:17] <ajmitch> like the live cd which does wireless now?
[06:18] <pupil> ajmitch, well,. i want to do ltsp via wireless
[06:18] <_maydayjay_> pupil - check http://thinstation.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/ThIndex
[06:20] <pupil> _maydayjay_, yeah,. I see it
[06:22] <pupil> brb
[06:35] <pupil> _maydayjay_, the guy release a wireless version,. wow,. 
[06:41] <_maydayjay_> pupil - #ltsp has a wireless discussion happening ... channel is slow though...
[06:42] <pupil> I'm on ltsp
[06:44] <pupil> _maydayjay_, that page you gave me is helpful,.. extremely helpful
[06:44] <pupil> gonna see how it works
[06:45] <_maydayjay_> Cool let me know how it works out... I have a situation where it might be useful if performance is acceptable.
[06:46] <pupil> _maydayjay_,  I'll tell yah,. if it works out on my P133 64mb edo ram,. I think you'll be ok,. I already have thin client working well on etherboot,. time to see how it does on wireless
[06:46] <Lathiat> it depends how many clients you want to have...
[06:46] <Lathiat> and whether its 11b or 11g
[06:47] <Lathiat> overall i dont think itd be crash hot tho
[06:48] <pupil> the guy that created ltsp is coming to my city,. Toronto, Canda, for tomorrow and Monday
[06:48] <pupil> He's giving a lecture on it
[06:49] <pupil> at a college
[06:49] <_maydayjay_> pupil - I'm in Burlinton, Ont...not to far from TO.  Where is the lecture?
[06:49] <pupil> Seneca college
[06:49] <_maydayjay_> Free admission?
[06:49] <pupil> I'm not sure, He did not indicate that it cost anything
[06:50] <pupil> I will check seneca's site
[06:50] <_maydayjay_> Thx...
[06:53] <pupil> http://cs.senecac.on.ca/soss/2005/speakers.php
[06:54] <pupil> _maydayjay_,  wow,. this dude spent like 5 dedicated hours with me on each day,.. 3 days in a row,. 
[06:54] <pupil> so 15 hours
[06:54] <pupil> or close to that
[06:57] <_maydayjay_> Looks like a great conference...I'll see if I can get the time off work to attend some of it.  Thanks for the info!
[06:58] <pupil> _maydayjay_,  no probs
[06:58] <pupil> Seneca is stepping up it seems
[07:00] <_maydayjay_> Sure does...glad to see opensource getting the attention it deserves in the Canadian Education system!
[07:00] <_maydayjay_> brb
[07:40] <Amaranth> goodnight all
[07:56] <jsgotangco> hi all
[08:00] <Treenaks> morning jsgotangco 
[08:01] <ajmitch> hi jsgotangco, Treenaks 
[08:01] <Treenaks> *yaawn*
[08:02] <Treenaks> 8:00 and already up for 3 hours
[08:03] <fabbione> Treenaks: welcome to the club :)
[08:04] <Treenaks> fabbione: dude, it's Sunday
[08:04] <Treenaks> and I've been hacking python-gst stuff
[08:05] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:05] <fabbione> Treenaks: i am trying to get 2.6.14 to build...
[08:06] <Treenaks> fabbione: is it so broken?
[08:08] <[Chameleon] > Treenaks: bummer... jahshaka requires QT3
[08:08] <fabbione> Treenaks: not at all..
[08:08] <fabbione> Treenaks: just cleaning up bits
[08:09] <Treenaks> so when dapper opens we'll have LOADS of new crack :)
[08:09] <Treenaks> seb had a new rhythmbox ready as well
[08:09] <[Chameleon] > mmm crack
[08:09] <jsgotangco> that would be fun indeed
[08:10] <Treenaks> ooh, yes, that too
[08:10] <[Chameleon] > I got it setup to fade in/out windows
[08:10] <[Chameleon] > freaking awesome
[08:10] <Treenaks> [Chameleon] : fading windows? that sounds MovieOS, talk to ogra ;)
[08:10] <[Chameleon] > Treenaks: yeah
[08:10] <[Chameleon] > Treenaks: across dual monitors
[08:10] <[Chameleon] > it's so sexy
[08:11] <[Chameleon] > all my menus fade in/out when I access them, too
[08:11] <[Chameleon] > even the tool tips fade
[08:13] <crimsun> fabbione: excellent, that means we can kill lots of the alsa dpatches :-)
[08:13] <fabbione> crimsun: they are all gone already
[08:13] <crimsun> fabbione: righto
[08:14] <Treenaks> Is there/has there been any work on unifying/fixing the WiFi drivers?
[08:14] <Treenaks> As mentioned in some post I read linked from planet gnome (re: networkmanager)
[08:16] <jsgotangco> brb
[09:53] <nnonix> I'm thinking of filing a big report for network-manager (which would be my first bug report) and wondered if someone (familiar with network-manager) here might want to check my logic before I do so? I've had no real feedback from ppl in #Ubuntu.
[09:53] <nnonix> er, that's BUG report ...
[10:12] <LaschW> Does bug 17302 mean that fglrx isn't working at all for breezy? 
[10:15] <Treenaks> it works..ish
[10:15] <Treenaks> and I have a PCIE X700
[10:16] <LaschW> Here all my ATI 9100 (r200) cards freeze the system since there is a new fglrx module. And it is reproducable for a lot of other ATI Cards
[10:18] <LaschW> This is very poor due to the fact that fglrx worked fine with the older fglrx modules. 
[10:19] <bob2> doesn't X come with Free accelerated drivers for 9100s, anyway?
[10:20] <LaschW> bob2: :-/ accelerated? I would call it slowerated, 3D accelleration is more than poor
[10:20] <bob2> ok then!
[10:22] <LaschW> I can't get even one ATI AGP card working with fglrx. (9100 to 9800)
[10:22] <LaschW> bob2: And a propper 3d accelleration is a must for CAD/CAM
[10:23] <LaschW> And up to now I can't finde even one who get an ATI AGP card working with fglrx
[10:26] <LaschW> So breezy had working fglrx modules in the past, will ubuuntu a) remove the nonworking fglrx or b) bring back the working fglrx modules
[10:31] <LaschW> In the moment this fglrx problem is a nogo criteria for an OEM to use breezy
[10:32] <Treenaks> LaschW: fglrx is not supported, and ATi breaks it every once in a while..
[10:32] <Treenaks> LaschW: complain there
[10:34] <LaschW> Treenaks: No I dwon't. Thare was a working fglrx in breezy in the past and it's Ubuntu to bring this back. Or, as I said, we (an OEM) will drop Ubuntu 
[10:35] <LaschW> Treenaks: And I will bet most other OEM's will do so...
[10:36] <LaschW> Treenaks: s/dwon't. Thare/won't. There/
[10:36] <sivang> Morning all
[10:37] <Treenaks> LaschW: That one was broken in lots of other interesting ways for other people
[10:38] <Treenaks> LaschW: The problem with the fglrx driver is that it's closed-source (for the most part) and written by ATi, not by us. We do test, and you had the opportunity to test during the release cycle
[10:38] <LaschW> Treenaks: I won't say so. It was working for most all ATI cards in the past. Up to now it is only working for a few PCIE cards.
[10:38] <Treenaks> LaschW: Well, explain your problem better in the bug then
[10:38] <Treenaks> LaschW: it might get fixed
[10:38] <LaschW> Treenaks: I'm not talking about closed source. I'm talking about bringing back the working fglrx modules!
[10:39] <Treenaks> LaschW: Those were broken for (for example) me
[10:39] <LaschW> Treenaks: There is a bug 17302
[10:39] <Treenaks> LaschW: Add a comment to it that you're experiencing it too, and why you feel the severity should be higher than it currently is
[10:39] <LaschW> Treenaks: And I don't think you have tested it on such a variet5y of cards than we have...
[10:40] <bob2> come on folks
[10:40] <bob2> whinging on irc does not fix anything
[10:40] <Treenaks> LaschW: I haven't, the laptop team has.
[10:40] <bob2> the bug is filed, people will look at it
[10:42] <LaschW> bob2: I'm not whinging. I just lay my finger in an open wound. Which as I've said is a nogoi criteria for at least one OEM. Only a small one (turnover 230M EUR in 2004)
[10:45] <LaschW> If hwdb.ubuntu.com would be online you might have received a lot of complains.
[10:46] <LaschW> hwdb.ubuntu.com is in 'maintainance mode' since weeks
[10:49] <infinity> LaschW : The current fglrx drivers are the very first version ever that have worked on my hardware.
[10:50] <infinity> LaschW : That said, dapper will open with a shiny new fglrx version that is expected to work much better for everyone.  No, breezy won't get them.
[10:50] <LaschW> infinity: PCIE cards I would think?
[10:52] <LaschW> infinity: From an OEM's point of view it would be very helpfull if something like hwdb.ubuntu.com would be online to verify which cards are working and which not.
[10:52] <LaschW> infinity: Also from a users point of view
[10:52] <Treenaks> LaschW: Ubuntu is not only about OEMs
[10:52] <bob2> ogra: what's up with the hwdb site?
[10:53] <LaschW> bob2: Its in maintainance mode, since breezy release
[10:54] <infinity> LaschW : I'm fairly sure bob2 can read, however he's asking the man responsible for it.
[10:54] <LaschW> Treenaks: So Ubuntu is not interested in OEM's shiping pre installed systems? Good to know, thanks a lot... 
[10:55] <bob2> LaschW: stop it, no one is saying that
[10:55] <infinity> LaschW : Anyhow, the above comment was correct, it's a closed driver and I can't do much of anything about it.  I'm sorry that it seems to be broken for SOME people, but it seems to work quite well for many others, and I can't find a magical version that works for everyone, cause there isn't one.
[10:55] <LaschW> Treenaks: Pardon me for beeing sarcastic...
[10:55] <ajmitch> LaschW: going from 'not only OEMs' to 'ubuntu doesn't care' is a big jump ;P 
[10:56] <infinity> LaschW : Note that we expect most OEMs would be shipping with the "ati" and "nv" drivers, not "fglrx" and "nvidia".
[10:56] <infinity> LaschW : The free drivers, though lacking in the acceleration department, DO work.
[10:57] <infinity> LaschW : The non-free drivers work for some people, sometimes, but never for everyone.
[10:57] <LaschW> ajmitch: Apologize, see it as a sarcastic comment
[10:58] <ajmitch> I would think that an OEM would be able to select & use the driver they wanted to?
[10:58] <LaschW> infinity: Shure, but tell that a customer... 
[11:00] <LaschW> ajmitch: We are able to do so, but our customers don't. And for us it's a must that also a customer is able to install the needed packages. We did so for RH and SUSE. And so there are only this distributions wich stay as candidates for a shipping of pree installed systems.
[11:01] <infinity> I could trivially prepare some updated packages for testing, which you could distribute, but they'd get ZERO support from us (as we're not putting a newer fglrx into the breezy repository)
[11:03] <LaschW> infinity: What about the idea to have a repository where a customer may find a set of different module versions? (just an idea comming in my mind)
[11:03] <bob2> you're welcome to create such a repository
[11:03] <infinity> Indeed.
[11:03] <zyga> hmm
[11:04] <LaschW> infinity: E.G a repository where one can get the old breezy and fglrx modules?
[11:04] <infinity> As a rule, we'd expect OEMs to show a bit of initiative with driver issues like this.
[11:04] <infinity> Microsoft doesn't press new Windows CDs for you with new driver support on them.
[11:04] <Seveas> Microsoft and driver 'support'....
[11:04] <Seveas> looks funny in one sentence
[11:05] <LaschW> bob2: :-)) If I only had access on a repository where all the old packages lay around. There is no archive I've found up to now...
[11:05] <ajmitch> especially as new hardware comes out that isn't supported by the current stable distribution
[11:05] <zyga> LaschW: what about the morgue?
[11:05] <LaschW> zyga: morgue? tell me more
[11:06] <zyga> LaschW: http://morgue.ubuntu.com/
[11:06] <zyga> if that is what you are looking for 
[11:06] <infinity> That's not really going to work for you anyway.
[11:06] <zyga> oh, it's quite emtpy
[11:06] <bob2> are you really willing to tell your customers "oh, it doesn't work? try installing each of the ten drivers on blah.com and see which works"
[11:06] <infinity> If you try to set your users up to use older packages, they'll just get upgraded the first time they do an online update.
[11:07] <zyga> LaschW: are you having issues with fglrx?
[11:09] <LaschW> bob2: No. Our sitiuation is a bit more complex. We are a b2b manufacturer for what we call "After Work resellers", very small computer shops. And this customers need working systems, and 3D accelleration is a big momentum for this people
[11:09] <LaschW> zyga: Yepp
[11:10] <zyga> LaschW: did you try the latest version straight from ati?
[11:10] <LaschW> zyga: *grrmmbl* Yes I did. Never seen such a crap before...
[11:11] <zyga> LaschW: (next time buy nvidia)
[11:11] <zyga> LaschW: anyway you are cooked, as someone has already said - previous versions were buggy too
[11:11] <LaschW> zyga: Ever tried the ATI installer? Try distribution customized install. And you will see an error about not able to find /lib/linux386/lib$FOO
[11:12] <LaschW> zyga: Seems ATI guys never even startet their own installer. As I said crap..
[11:12] <zyga> LaschW: I never tried the ati installer, I did try to use some prepackaged drivers in my fedora 1 days but that was long time ago
[11:12] <zyga> mvo: morning
[11:13] <ajmitch> hi mvo 
[11:14] <zyga> WaterSevenUb: hi :-)
[11:14] <LaschW> zyga: Right, RH fedora and SUSE packages are working. At least yesterday... So thats what makes me go up the trees...
[11:14] <WaterSevenUb> zyga, hi there:) goodmorning.
[11:15] <LaschW> zyga: I tried to offer ATI a helping hand making their installer work. But thei wanted me to pay for to do their job....
[11:15] <zyga> LaschW: are they based (Suse/rh/fedora) on the latest version? 
[11:16] <LaschW> zyga: Yepp, as far as I saw
[11:17] <zyga> LaschW: then there is something magical about them - you've said that the lastest drivers from ati are not working
[11:17] <zyga> LaschW: good luck with solving your issues
[11:17] <LaschW> the new ATI installer is not bad, on the first look. It offers to build deb packages. But isn't able due to do so due to wrong path definitions.
[11:18] <sivang> morning mvo, zyga, ajmitch, infinity, Seveas 
[11:18] <mvo> hey zyga, ajmitch 
[11:19] <LaschW> zyga: At least the last fglrx drivers dont work for 8500 to 9800 agp on boards with Via, nvidia and intel chipset
[11:22] <Seveas> oi sivang 
[11:22] <zyga> sivang: morning :-)
[11:25] <sivang> interesting note from someone we know about spec ,) http://kerneltrap.org/node/5725
[11:28] <sivang> s/spec/specs/
[11:29] <zyga> sivang: ah, so last week
[11:53] <\sh> moins
[11:54] <Seveas> oi
[11:54] <ajmitch> hey \sh 
[11:55] <\sh> oh well...i need a life...sleeping next to my laptop is not the meaning of a working relationship...
[11:57] <zyga> \sh: next time sleep next to your laptop *and* your girlfriend
[11:57] <\sh> i mean, ok the laptop is warm and doesn't snorr, but I prefere a more softer version of someone in my bed
[11:57] <sivang> \sh: hehe, Moins!
[11:59] <sivang> \sh: at least you slept well?
[11:59] <\sh> zyga: hmmm..question: if you would be a girlfriend and you see, that your boyfriend has a laptop in his bed...would you sleep next to him? ;)
[11:59] <zyga> err
[11:59] <zyga> \sh: mine does
[11:59] <zyga> \sh: she's got a laopto too BTW ;-)
[11:59] <zyga> (sometimes she preres my psp and just dumps the laptop)
[12:00] <\sh> zyga: damn...I knew I made something wrong in my life ,-)
[12:00] <zyga> \sh: you should have bought you gf a psp :-)
[12:01] <\sh> zyga: well....I tried, but sony didn't release the psp just in time...so now I could buy a psp, but I don't know a place for buying a gf *eg*
[12:02] <\sh> sivang: somehow yes...right now I'm prepared for long ubz sessions :)
[12:02] <zyga> \sh: well, if I were you I'd buy the psp anyway, gf will come along one day
[12:03] <\sh> zyga: serious...I'm not in this gamers business...the last time I bought a portable gaming device was for my son...and I was too stupid to play with it...
[12:04] <zyga> \sh: how old are you if I may ask?
[12:05] <\sh> zyga: in january 35
[12:05] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, I received an email from a user concerned with Synaptic translations in debian unstable to portuguese... did you talk to him?
[12:05] <\sh> zyga: an old fart
[12:05] <zyga> \sh: ever since I bought my first game console I dumped pc gaming, I'm 23 now and after 5 consoles I'm pretty much addicted
[12:05] <zyga> \sh: nah
[12:05] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, I think he was using pt_BR instead of pt_PT.
[12:05] <zyga> \sh: you're very old school ;-)
[12:05] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, unless there is some problem in debian unstable.
[12:06] <zyga> \sh: anyway - gameplay is the only way I rest mentally (apart from sleep) really
[12:06] <mvo> WaterSevenUb: no, I haven't 
[12:07] <\sh> zyga: I played some xbox games the last time I was visiting ogra...but I'm having trouble to control those big xbox-controls
[12:07] <sivang> \sh: what did you prepare?
[12:07] <zyga> \sh: I have a gamecube and psp currently, both are a marvel
[12:07] <maswan> \sh: so does most humans. :)
[12:08] <maswan> \sh: those controllers are huge
[12:08] <zyga> \sh: try a gamecube with your son at a retail store, there are great multiplayer games too
[12:08] <maswan> http://ps2vsxbox.istheshit.net/
[12:08] <zyga> \sh: (for kids that is)
[12:08] <maswan> is the classic illustration of that. :)
[12:08] <[Chameleon] > \sh: there are smaller xbox controllers available
[12:08] <zyga> sivang: what!?
[12:09] <\sh> sivang: nothing special..but now I slept so long, that I don't need to sleep again ;)
[12:11] <\sh> zyga: he tried..that's why I bought him 2 or 3 years ago a PS2
[12:12] <\sh> zyga: and the only game he wanted to play was "Quidditch" and "Fifa Soccer"...
[12:12] <\sh> games even
[12:12] <Lathiat> heh quidditch
[12:12] <zyga> \sh: argh
[12:12] <zyga> (son that is)
[12:13] <zyga> anyone who can appreciate adom is a worthy gamer :-)
[12:13] <\sh> zyga: adom? this rogue like adv game which is not OSS?
[12:13] <zyga> \sh: the very same
[12:14] <zyga> \sh: while it'd be nice for the source to be FOSS it's a good thing it's not IMHO
[12:15] <zyga> (but that's really offtopic unless we have #ubuntu-fun or #ubuntu-lazy-devel
[12:15] <\sh> zyga: right
[12:16] <HiddenWolf> zyga, -offtopic
[12:16] <HiddenWolf> actually exists
[12:17] <zyga> :D
[12:17] <nomed> hi all
[12:18] <nomed> what the diff. between xterminal and xfce4-termianl?
[12:19] <[Chameleon] > nomed: try asking in #ubuntu. This is not a support channel.
[12:20] <nomed> [Chameleon] , i asked here just because i think it's a "bug"
[12:20] <nomed> take a look on those pkges
[12:20] <nomed> cu
[12:20] <[Chameleon] > nomed: what about them do you think is a bug?
[12:21] <zyga> nomed: apt-get source xterm && apt-get source xfce4-terminal && diff -Naur xterm-203 xfce4-terminal-0.2.4 | less
[12:21] <[Chameleon] > zyga: hehe
[12:21] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, have you uploaded translations upstream?
[12:21] <nomed> zyga, xterminal not xterm
[12:22] <zyga> nomed: ah, sorry
[12:22] <nomed> the only diff seems the Maint
[12:22] <nomed> and the name
[12:22] <mvo> WaterSevenUb: synaptic translations?
[12:22] <zyga> nomed: the diff is around 1000 lines
[12:23] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, yeah
[12:23] <\sh> nomed: Conflicts: terminal, xterminal
[12:23] <\sh> nomed: in xfce4-terminal that is...
[12:24] <nomed> \sh ok
[12:24] <\sh> nomed: please ask the xfce4 devs ( janimo e.g.)
[12:24] <spayne> mornin' all
[12:24] <mvo> WaterSevenUb: I commit everything I get to the synaptic svn
[12:24] <jayakumar2> infinity, fwiw, i think it's a waste that everyone (users,distro folk, oems, devels) expend so much effort on trying to get 3d gfx support working. all that frustration. rev eng specs. 8k/4k problems. etc
[12:25] <\sh> ok..laters...need some coffee and something to eat
[12:25] <WaterSevenUb> mvo, ok... great. 
[12:26] <zyga> mvo: what changes do you plan to implement in update-manager, if any?
[12:28] <mvo> zyga: I'm undecided about that, probably some gui cleanups in the software-preferences dialog. the rest will depend on UBZ
[12:28] <zyga> mvo: I've got three questions for you
[12:28] <zyga> mvo: would you concider moving from cvs to something else?
[12:29] <infinity> jayakumar2 : I agree, tell ATI.  Telling me it's a waste of time doesn't do much good.
[12:29] <zyga> mvo: would you concider adding a apps vs packages tabs to the upgrade list (so that users know about applications that matter the most and about other stuff they might not understand)
[12:29] <zyga> mvo: if so would you accept a third tab, translations
[12:30] <zyga> mvo: (OTOH: it would be good to add reddish background on updates from security.*)
[12:30] <zyga> mvo: we can take this to priv if you like
[12:31] <mvo> zyga: can we possibly talk about this after ubz? then I have a better idea about what time I can allocate for what task? 
[12:31] <zyga> mvo: okay
[12:31] <zyga> mvo: I could implement the tab part
[12:32] <mvo> in general I like the idea about e.g. having something "redish" for secuirty and telling the user that libxy is "System" and "libopenoffice" belongs to the Openoffic applikation. and that langpack-en-update means, that the translations are updated
[12:32] <zyga> mvo: I'd need to know how much backend/frontend separation are you planning 
[12:32] <mvo> but I wouldn't want to do it with tabs most likely
[12:33] <mvo> zyga: python-apt is getting into good shape, I hope that the backend that installs the packages can be python-apt (instead of synaptic) for the next release
[12:33] <zyga> mvo: why?
[12:33] <mvo> zyga: mostly because it makes integration into the app easier
[12:33] <mvo> and gives more flexibility
[12:33] <zyga> hmm, I'm not sure I follow
[12:34] <zyga> (I asked about tabs)
[12:34] <mvo> oh, tabs
[12:34] <zyga> I do understand backend separation, it's a good thing
[12:34] <mvo> tabs get easily confusing. I wonder if we shouldn't just sort the list (e.g. security, apps, translaions)
[12:35] <zyga> mvo: since I quite disagree I'll prepare some mockups today :-)
[12:35] <zyga> maybe you will change your mind later :)
[12:38] <mvo> zyga: feel free, my opinion is not set in stone
[12:38] <mvo> :)
[12:41] <zyga> mvo: actually I've got something interesting, I'll make the mockup, write a blog entry about it and send you the link, fine?
[12:46] <zyga> mvo: do you know any FOSS artwork source?
[12:46] <zyga> I'd need a bunch of icons
[12:47] <infinity> zyga : openclipart.org
[12:48] <infinity> Which is down right now, cause they were naughty, naughty boys and had a horribly insecure script running in their vhost.
[12:48] <infinity> But they'll be back soon, I assume.
[12:49] <zyga> infinity: thanks, good to know
[12:52] <zyga> hmm
[12:53] <zyga> there is a bug in mozilla-thunderbird postinst script
[12:53] <zyga> seems like a typo
[12:53] <infinity> Which bug is that?
[12:53] <infinity> The misplacement of "-maxdepth" arguments to find?
[12:53] <zyga> infinity: yes
[12:53] <infinity> Which is harmless, but incredibly noisy? :)
[12:54] <infinity> Will get fixed in dapper, but it's not a problem in breezy, just noisy.
[12:54] <zyga> infinity: yes :D
[12:54] <infinity> It doesn't affect functionality.
[12:54] <zyga> infinity: I've sent a 'screenshot' to my friend I hope to convert
[12:54] <zyga> infinity: I had to hide in shame and edith that crap away
[12:54] <infinity> Hah.
[12:55] <infinity> Yeah, I'm going to do a recursive grep across an entire unpacked source mirror at the beginning of dapper, and try to nail every one of those I can find.
[12:55] <infinity> I probably should have just removed the error message from find for breezy, but kinda forgot until it was too late.
[01:01] <infinity> mvo : Oh, while I'm fanboying you, what's up with the rendering bug in update-manager?  (the arrow/text for "show progress of single files" seems to appear twice, overlapped)
[01:02] <infinity> mvo : I'm fairly sure it has to do with my desktop not being at the default DPI (it goes away when I change DPI to 72), but I also don't see it in other GTK apps, so I'm wondering if maybe you're doing something crazy wrong with positioning..
[01:02] <zyga> infinity: can you get a screenshot
[01:03] <infinity> Sure...
[01:03] <mvo> infinity: I have seen this as well, it seems to be a GtkSocket/GtkPlug problem 
[01:03] <mvo> but I would need to check that again
[01:03] <infinity> Right, no need for a screenshot then, if you've seen it. :)
[01:04] <infinity> Oh well, it's a minor irritation.
[01:05] <infinity> Wouldn't matter so much if we weren't currently trying to be so clever and setting laptop DPI based on screen size.
[01:05] <infinity> (ie: If we just did the "dumb windows" thing and set everyone to 72dpi, the problem would be masked)
[01:05] <infinity> And if my eyesight were better, I'd probably run at 72dpi...
[01:05] <infinity> But 72dpi on a 15 inch 1400x1050 screen is.. Really small text.
[01:06] <infinity> And I'm getting old. ;)
[01:06] <mvo> heh :) 
[01:06] <mvo> don't be silly ("getting old")
[01:06] <Lathiat> i thought 96 was the default 
[01:06] <infinity> Err, yes, of course it is, I'm backwards.
[01:06] <infinity> Really old, AND bad at math!
[01:07] <infinity> Or, wait.
[01:07] <infinity> No.
[01:07] <infinity> Not bad at math.
[01:07] <infinity> 72 is the default.
[01:07] <infinity> 96 may be a default in some interesting corner cases (and it's what my laptop is set to)
[01:07] <infinity> But most desktops will be at 72.
[01:09] <HiddenWolf> how does one check? :)
[01:09] <Lathiat> oh ok
[01:09] <Lathiat> i didnt knwo that
[01:09] <Lathiat> both my laptops have been 96
[01:09] <Lathiat> never used anything else
[01:09] <Lathiat> altho tghis laptop is _actually_ around 120
[01:10] <infinity> This may be too.
[01:10] <infinity> HiddenWolf : It's in font preference, of all non-intuitive things.
[01:11] <HiddenWolf> 96 for me.
[01:11] <Lathiat> kde doesn't seem to have a way of finding it out
[01:12] <Lathiat> err
[01:12] <Lathiat> s/finding/changing
[01:12] <Lathiat> but it does take the X setting
[01:12] <Lathiat> where as gnome does not
[01:12] <infinity> Yeah, not sure who's more correct there.
[01:12] <infinity> With the KDE way, you get the "right" setting, but with GNOME you can actually change it.
[01:12] <infinity> You can't change X's DPI on the fly.
[01:12] <Lathiat> it should be the 'right' setting
[01:12] <Lathiat> but overridable
[01:12] <infinity> (in fact, xdpyinfo on my laptop claims that X thinks I'm at 75dpi)
[01:13] <Lathiat> infinity: x _does_ think your at 75dpi
[01:13] <Lathiat> infinity: gtk/pango does not
[01:13] <infinity> Yes.  I know.
[01:13] <infinity> But for now, this is (in my mind) the better solution, hack though it may be, cause X can't change it on the fly.
[01:13] <infinity> When X gets smarter about geometry changes on the fly, GNOME can stop doing it.
[01:14] <HiddenWolf> screen #0:
[01:14] <HiddenWolf>   dimensions:    1920x1200 pixels (524x331 millimeters)
[01:14] <HiddenWolf>   resolution:    93x92 dots per inch
[01:15] <HiddenWolf> fits with gnome here
[01:15] <infinity> it does?
[01:16] <infinity> You said GNOME was at 96.
[01:17] <HiddenWolf> hm, true.
[01:17] <HiddenWolf> 72 looks odd, btw. :)
[01:18] <HiddenWolf> can't find a recomended dpi in the monitor fact sheet.
[01:19] <infinity> Looks good on my girlfriend's desktop.
[01:21] <infinity> Not that it makes much different, but I probably meant s/72/75/
[01:21] <infinity> At  aguess.  I can't see her machine right now to confirm.
[01:21] <infinity> But 72 is the Win32 default dpi, 75 is X, so I likely confused the two.
[01:21] <HiddenWolf> infinity, http://www.geocities.com/hiddenwolfsof/Screenshot.png
[01:23] <infinity> Oh, note that for extra-hilarity, apps that aren't very GNOME-ish (like firefox and tbird) will respect the X dpi.
[01:23] <infinity> So, you'll get the window manager widgets (titlebar, etc) at the GNOME dpi, but the browser widgets at the X dpi, making them look bigger.
[01:40] <mvo> infinity: I hope that for dapper this gtksock/gtkplug buisness goes away, then the wrong error should be go away as well
[01:41] <jdub> infinity: ber, just read back the dpi discussion
[01:41] <jdub> infinity: i so want to fix this
[01:42] <HiddenWolf> jdub, ditching firefox would be good
[01:42] <HiddenWolf> jdub, :)
[01:42] <mdke> jdub, planneeeeetttttttt
[01:42] <jdub> infinity: i figure that even if X is wrong, it tends to have sensible defaults, so we should just trust X instead of mucking around
[01:42] <jdub> mdke: i'm sure you can understand that elmo has been busy
[01:43] <mdke> sure i can
[01:44] <jdub> ahr HUNGRY ahr
[01:44] <mdke> how is italy jdub ?
[01:45] <jdub> haven't seen much, been too sick
[01:45] <mdke> :/
[01:45] <mdke> get better soon
[01:47] <Simira> jdub: which day is the Rocky Horror Show-thing in Montreal?
[01:47] <Simira> I've been told I'm going...
[01:48] <tseng> Simira: be afraid
[01:48] <jdub> Simira: um, shush
[01:51] <sivang> Simira: Rocky Horror Show , Montreal? What's that?
[01:52] <Simira> sivang: nm, just trying to find out what to do in Montreal, except from bugging Ubuntu-devs
[01:52] <Simira> sivang: are you going to UBZ?
[01:52] <sivang> Simira: yes :)
[01:53] <Simira> sivang: me too. Though I'm planning on touristing a bit as well as working. There's a zoo (with penguins ;) and some interesting museums
[01:54] <sivang> Simira: nice, if we do get a free moment (which I doubt ;-)) would be interesting to photo some real penguins for Ubuntu artwork 
[01:55] <Simira> sivang: else, I'm sure you can get some from Tollef, we visited the penguins in Bergen two weeks ago. ;p Lucky for me, I'm not paid or obligated to do more work than I want to (or choose to), which still happens to be more than healthy....
[01:56] <tseng> jdub: go pia!
[02:01] <sivang> Simira: :)
[02:55] <zyga> back :)
[02:57] <zyga> mvo: re
[02:57] <zyga> mvo: would you concider moving update-manager from cvs to bzr?
[03:03] <zyga> mvo: this way we could work easier together
[03:06] <mantiena> Hi all
[03:06] <kbrooks> What if I don't want to insert a long description in debian/control (making a ubuntu package)?
[03:06] <Keybuk> you do
[03:06] <kbrooks> ?
[03:06] <Keybuk> you do want to insert it
[03:07] <tseng> if you dont when you upload it to REVU for inclusion in ubuntu we tell you to go back and add it
[03:07] <kbrooks> Well, what do I insert if I think it will be too long?
[03:08] <kbrooks> tseng: i'm not uploading it
[03:08] <Mithrandir> write it shorter, then
[03:08] <kbrooks> OK
[03:08] <\sh> jbailey: what was the sources.list to your daily bzr repos?
[03:12] <\sh> jbailey: have it  ;)
[03:13] <mantiena> mdz, hi, are you online?
[03:58] <trulux> BTW, hibernation on Breezy is working right?
[03:59] <sivang> trulux: if you're on nvidia, use the FOSS driver or consult HiddenWolf how to make it work with them :)
[03:59] <\sh> trulux: yes...but I have some problems with the fglrx drivers
[03:59] <sivang> HiddenWolf: maybe you write a howto about it? I will use it for sure numerous times :-)
[03:59] <trulux> I'm on vidia, just thought it would really rock if it worked out of the box
[03:59] <HiddenWolf> sivang, dude, nvidia driver hardlocks my kernel here. :)
[04:00] <trulux> hah
[04:00] <trulux> bbl, lunch time
[04:00] <HiddenWolf> sivang, trulux: apt-get install nvidia-glx linux-restricted-modules-`uname -r` , chance nv to nvidia, and reboot.
[04:00] <HiddenWolf> change. :)
[04:01] <trulux> I'm already using nvidia module
[04:01] <kbrooks> i really need to fully reinstall breezy
[04:02] <mantiena> Kamion, hi
[04:23] <mantiena> Kamion, could you answer some questions about http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/casper/casper--automount/ ?
[04:36] <sivang> HiddenWolf: I recall you told me a set of steps, that helped me to get all pm working *with* the previous prorierity driver
[04:37] <HiddenWolf> sivang, i can't remember, but the howto's are there on the wiki already.
[04:44] <trulux> HiddenWolf: after nvidia gets loaded and used for glx, what's next?
[04:45] <HiddenWolf> trulux, should work then, I've never gotten to that piont on breezy.
[04:46] <trulux> HiddenWolf: OK, will check. many thanks
[05:02] <Keybuk> hmm, tricky decision
[05:02] <Keybuk> do I wipe and reinstall my laptop before or after UBZ?
[05:02] <fabbione> Keybuk: before :)
[05:02] <fabbione> after UBZ you will be tempt to install dapper ;)
[05:02] <Keybuk> lol, that's a good point
[05:02] <fabbione> and suffer because it won't
[05:02] <fabbione> :(
[05:03] <Keybuk> it's running breezy now, just a crufty install
[05:03] <fabbione> Keybuk: i am running warty -> hoary -> breezy super hacked install :)
[05:03] <fabbione> time to reset the counters
[05:03] <Keybuk> yeah, this one was half way through breezy with a very crufty homedir
[05:04] <Keybuk> and some things are annoyingly bust (like evo calendars and addressbook)
[05:04] <Keybuk> my desktop was a unstable -> warty -> hoary -> breezy special
[05:04] <trulux> HiddenWolf: I don't find the info. on the wiki
[05:04] <Keybuk> and that got wiped and reinstalled fresh, and it's soooo much nicer
[05:04] <\sh> Keybuk: install breezy during UBZ ,)
[05:04] <Keybuk> \sh: I'll be busy during
[05:04] <HiddenWolf> trulux, what exactly are you looking for?
[05:04] <Kamion> mantiena: not on a Sunday :-) send me mail
[05:04] <trulux> HiddenWolf: info on integration and configuration of hibernation stuff
[05:04] <trulux> ie. KDE entry in the logout menu
[05:05] <HiddenWolf> trulux, doesn't work, usually.
[05:05] <\sh> Keybuk: u have the night ;)
[05:06] <Keybuk> \sh: the night is for drinking and food and bitching and fun
[05:07] <\sh> Keybuk: ok ok...you convienced me...do it before ubz
[05:56] <pmjdebruijn> lo all
[05:56] <pmjdebruijn> I want my application to also have a Translate This Application in my Help menu, I already added the menu item, but where can I find the associated icon?
[05:59] <sivang> pmjdebruijn: hmm, how did you add the menu item?
[06:00] <pmjdebruijn> sivang, uhm, add a menu item and call it Translate This Application
[06:00] <pmjdebruijn> I didn't add a stock menu item
[06:00] <TMM> isn't that supposed to be added by gnome-libs or something?
[06:00] <pmjdebruijn> well I'm not writing native C
[06:01] <Chipzz> TMM: no, launchpad
[06:01] <Chipzz> gnome-libs is like ancient
[06:01] <TMM> oeps :)
[06:01] <pmjdebruijn> what does launchpad have to do with the menu item?
[06:01] <HiddenWolf> pmjdebruijn, the menu item pionts people to launchpad/rosetta
[06:02] <pmjdebruijn> HiddenWolf, yes I know, I already did that
[06:02] <pmjdebruijn> I just need the icon
[06:02] <pmjdebruijn> I can't seem to locate it
[06:03] <sivang> pmjdebruijn: there is a special library we created for this, so you don't need to manually add the items.
[06:03] <kbrooks> pmjdebruijn: look in /usr/share/pixbufs ?
[06:03] <sivang> pmjdebruijn: is this a python app ?
[06:05] <sivang> pmjdebruijn: fetch the source for gedit or gucharmap and see how it's done there. Basically you dynamically link against the launchpad integration library and use it's functions to add everything: items, icons, functionality
[06:06] <sivang> pmjdebruijn: or look at the source of file-roller if you're app is UIManager
[06:07] <pmjdebruijn> sivang, no it's a Mono/GTK# app
[06:08] <zyga> mvo: ping
[06:08] <pmjdebruijn> sivang, I'm not sure the integration library is going to work with Mono...
[06:09] <pmjdebruijn> sivang, is there an easy way how I can test this?
[06:09] <zyga> what is MOM/NDA?
[06:10] <pmjdebruijn> kbrooks, yay, it's there, lpi-translate.png
[06:10] <pmjdebruijn> kbrooks, /usr/share/pixmaps
[06:10] <sivang> zyga: I know that MOM is merge-o-matic 
[06:10] <kbrooks> pmjdebruijn: :)
[06:10] <kent> pmjdebruijn, it doesn't seem to work for mono applications. I tried blam and muine and they dont have that translation-stuff.
[06:10] <zyga> sivang: hmm okay that's a clue
[06:10] <kbrooks> kent: ^
[06:10] <kbrooks> everyone: ^ 
[06:11] <zyga> kbrooks: mono?
[06:11] <kbrooks> zyga: no
[06:11] <kbrooks> the icon 
[06:11] <zyga> kbrooks: what about it?
[06:11] <kbrooks> /usr/share/pixmaps/lpi-translate.png
[06:12] <zyga> (just running hoary->breezy upgrade though)
[06:12] <kbrooks> lol
[06:13] <zyga> kbrooks: what's with that icon btw?
[06:14] <kbrooks> zyga: scroll up
[06:14] <pmjdebruijn> zyga, i wanted to where it was at
[06:14] <kbrooks> "
[06:14] <kbrooks> pmjdebruijn kbrooks, yay, it's there, lpi-translate.png
[06:14] <kbrooks> pmjdebruijn kbrooks, /usr/share/pixmaps"
[06:15] <zyga> ok
[06:18] <TMM> hum, is there a tool to simplify patch merging? 
[06:19] <zyga> TMM: what do you mean by that?
[06:19] <TMM> zyga, multiple vi windows with .rej files and the offending c files is beginning to be a tad unproductive ... :)
[06:19] <zyga> :-)
[06:20] <zyga> TMM: do it one at a time ;-)
[06:20] <TMM> perhaps I just need a dualhead setup...
[06:20] <zyga> TMM: I don't know of anything that helps really
[06:20] <zyga> TMM: vimdiff is nice to see the changes though
[06:20] <TMM> :)\
[06:20] <TMM> I'll just go for dualhead, and I'll look into vimdiff
[06:20] <TMM> it's just a pretty LARGE patch that is failing
[06:20] <TMM> one large diff :)
[06:21] <zyga> TMM: did you ever try vimdiff?
[06:21] <TMM> no
[06:21] <TMM> I will now though :)
[06:21] <zyga> TMM: man, you'll be suprised :>
[06:21] <TMM> that good, is it?
[06:21] <TMM> hmm, not in ubuntu :(
[06:22] <zyga> TMM: it's a symlink to vim
[06:22] <zyga> TMM: just get vim
[06:22] <TMM> ow, it's PART of vim :)
[06:22] <zyga> yes
[06:23] <TMM> zyga, is it 'just' a diff viewer?
[06:25] <TMM> ah, it does a tad more
[06:25] <TMM> nice :)
[06:25] <TMM> thanks zyga I think this is going to help
[06:27] <zyga> TMM: plesure
[06:28] <zyga> TMM: note, vimdiff can do 3-way-diff too :D
[06:28] <TMM> :)
[06:29] <zyga> urghh...
[06:29] <zyga> why is diveintopython in main again?
[06:29] <zyga> it's not that my mom is going to check an english-only book about programming during her tea time
[06:30] <Kamion> talk to Mark about that
[06:30] <zyga> Kamion: thanks
[06:30] <Kamion> we kind of started with *python* and removed things from there rather than the other way round ;-)
[06:30] <zyga> Kamion: is that his nickname, he's not around?
[06:30] <Kamion> zyga: Mark == sabdfl, the boss
[06:30] <zyga> Kamion: ah
[06:30] <zyga> sabdfl: ping, hi :)
[06:30] <Kamion> although he's probably very busy right now with the launchpad/dapper rollout
[06:30] <zyga> okay
[06:31] <zyga> Kamion we kind of started with *python* and removed things from there rather than the other way round ;-)
[06:31] <jordi> does anyone know if thom is on IRC lately?
[06:31] <zyga> Kamion: ^^ I don't understand that
[06:32] <zyga> Kamion: Mark, *the* mark?
[06:32] <TMM> zyga, the big guy
[06:32] <zyga> geez
[06:32] <zyga> I've talked to him a couple of times, I never suspected that's him
[06:32] <zyga> anyway -- ackward nickname
[06:32] <HiddenWolf> zyga, SABDFL is an acronym
[06:32] <TMM> zyga, Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life :)
[06:33] <zyga> hehehe
[06:33] <zyga> that's appropriate :D
[06:33] <Kamion> zyga: Mark loves Python, so we slurped about as much python stuff into main as possible right from the start, and trimmed it down after that
[06:33] <zyga> Kamion: I surely understand 
[06:34] <zyga> Kamion: but while I do like python too, the geatest linux RAD tool around 
[06:34] <zyga> Kamion: putting a english only  book into every desktop for clueless users (without any links or menu items)
[06:34] <zyga> Kamion: where normal users never-ever go outside of /home and /media
[06:34] <zyga> Kamion: is a waste of space IMHO
[06:34] <zyga> Kamion: good effort, bad implementation
[06:34] <Kamion> I value my job rather too much to remove something matching /python/ from desktop without checking first. ;-)
[06:35] <TMM> Kamion, lol! :D is he THAT passionate? :)
[06:35] <zyga> Kamion: python-sucks-use-ruby ^^ Depends: Ruby ;-)
[06:35] <zyga> lol
[06:35] <zyga> Conflicts: python
[06:35] <zyga> hehe
[06:35] <zyga> anyway I'd love to see Mark's point
[06:39] <sabdfl> TMM: YES!
[06:40] <sivang> lol
[06:40] <zyga> sabdfl: so basically what I don't understand is
[06:40] <zyga> how is a *anyone* ever going to find out that such a valuable piece of knowledge is installed on his/her system
[06:40] <sabdfl> good effort, bad implementation? you may have a point. patches welcome
[06:40] <zyga> unless someone is really reading the package list
[06:41] <zyga> or loves to read the upgrade cycle 
[06:41] <zyga> sabdfl: cool I'll think of something 
[06:41] <zyga> sabdfl: how about a item in apps->development
[06:41] <sabdfl> zyga: good idea
[06:41] <zyga> sabdfl: I'd love to patch this if you back up the effort
[06:41] <TMM> zyga, sabdfl perhaps add it to the help browser?
[06:41] <zyga> TMM: no-one check the help browser
[06:42] <jdub> zyga: we're going to have a BOF about this at UBZ (about the 'ubuntu platform', which will cover python)
[06:42] <zyga> TMM: everyone is checking the menu
[06:42] <sabdfl> zyga, TMM: I would very much like to see this stuff taken further during Dapper
[06:42] <zyga> jdub: UBZ is out of my financial reach
[06:42] <TMM> zyga, add it to the help browser, and place an icon in the menu to point to the helpbrowser + start point of diveintopython?
[06:42] <jdub> zyga: also, wrt documentation, there'll be a BOF and continuing work on exposing what already ships with ubuntu (rather than new docs)
[06:43] <TMM> zyga, it'd be nice to have it in a uniform app, I think?
[06:43] <zyga> TMM: true, good point
[06:43] <jdub> install devhelp, make sure it's not already visible
[06:43] <zyga> TMM: adding a menu item that launches help browser is a good idea
[06:43] <TMM> jdub, first things first: ARE YOU WEARING PANTS? :D
[06:43] <jdub> no
[06:44] <zyga> jdub: hmm
[06:44] <TMM> euh....
[06:44] <jdub> zyga: system -> help
[06:44] <zyga> TMM, jdub: that's yelp - right?
[06:44] <jdub> but for diveintopython, look at devhelp (i know doko put some python docs in there, but dunno if he made sure DIP was)
[06:44] <TMM> zyga, yeah
[06:44] <sivang> jdub: registered in spec tracker / on the wiki ? havn't seen a bof suggestion about it
[06:44] <zyga> aww
[06:44] <zyga> offtopic
[06:44] <zyga> /var/lib/dpkg/info/libgstreamer0.8-0.postinst: line 10:   412 Naruszenie ochrony pamici   GST_REGISTRY=/var/lib/gstreamer/0.8/registry.xml gst-register-0.8 >/dev/null
[06:45] <zyga> Naruszenie ochrony pamieci == segvfault
[06:45] <TMM> jdub, but, if it is installed per default, I don't you should have to install a seperate package to actually use/reat it?
[06:45] <jdub> sivang: jbailey and i looked at the DapperStandardBase BOF, figured that would be a good place to start it
[06:45] <sivang> jdub: ah cool, figures :)
[06:46] <zyga> (and clearly others seem to have better knowledge of the system and the design)
[06:46] <TMM> jdub, ow yeah, can you tell me what guy I need to talk to about the gdm stuff again?
[06:46] <sivang> jdub: sounds like this is going to be on long BOF :)
[06:46] <zyga> sabdfl: thanks for your time
[06:46] <jdub> TMM: that's a problem, but one that i think ought to be solved by not installing it by default, really
[06:46] <Kamion> mm, devhelp would be a nice place for it to go in the long run
[06:46] <TMM> jdub, be wary of sabdfl's wrath :P
[06:46] <sivang> zyga: dive into python is also available through "Applications --> PRogramming" in yelp
[06:46] <Robi-> oh man did I have an episode upgrading..
[06:47] <jdub> TMM: i'm more wary of user experience
[06:47] <zyga> sivang: I never run yelp, I didn't even know it's there since most FOSS and win help systems are a laught and many users, me included, have learned to avoid them
[06:47] <TMM> jdub, good point :)
[06:47] <TMM> sivang, it is :) great, case closed :P
[06:48] <Robi-> hoary->breezy, mdadm was installed for some readon and started telling me I had degraded arrays, because somehow my second drive which isn't mounted had an array previously. this of course made me think I installed it as raid, and the error messages led nowhere.
[06:48] <sivang> zyga: yelp is sweet :)
[06:49] <zyga> sivang: letting users know about that is difficult
[06:49] <zyga> sivang: and I think the stake is different here
[06:49] <zyga> sivang: 1) there is this great idea about promoting python
[06:49] <zyga> sivang: 2) we even get a nice free book about it
[06:49] <TMM> jdub, do you have the name of that gdm guy for me please? I forgot...
[06:49] <zyga> sivang: 3) aww, it's hidden in the help system -- I'd never look for a book in the help system
[06:50] <zyga> sivang: 4) most users don't touch help systems with a 4 feet long stick
[06:50] <jsgotangco> zyga: right
[06:50] <sivang> zyga: I for my part alwasy mention "Did you know Ubuntu is python oriented?" and when they start asking, I show them the book and the interpreter :)
[06:50] <Robi-> zyga, just tell the users that google uses it as their lgue language for everything
[06:50] <sivang> (when pushing ubuntu around my commmunities)
[06:51] <zyga> how to launch yelp with generic html?
[06:51] <sivang> Robi-: even better, "Does anyone wants to know how google know to speek the Elmar Fud language? Read DIP!"
[06:51] <Robi-> so you want a little powered by python graphic somewhere on the desktop?
[06:51] <zyga> Robi-: no
[06:51] <zyga> Robi-: apps->devel->dive into python
[06:51] <zyga> Robi-: after default install
[06:51] <zyga> Robi-: basically I want one more desktop file
[06:52] <zyga> never underestimate the value of the .desktop files
[06:52] <Robi-> it would work, or at least a link to an online tutorial
[06:52] <jdub> zyga: that means there'll be one menu item in Programming for normal users by default
[06:52] <zyga> jdub: YES but then again THERE IS A BOOK ALREADY
[06:52] <jdub> zyga: when it has no relevance whatsoever to them
[06:52] <zyga> jdub: by default, just sitting useless
[06:52] <jsgotangco> zyga: push html in yelp? it's scrollkeeper aware...
[06:52] <zyga> jdub: then ask sabdfl to remove the book ;-)
[06:53] <jdub> zyga: and we can provide a better user experience by making sure the documentation appears in devhelp
[06:53] <jdub> zyga: this is not an either/or issue, dude
[06:53] <TMM> jdub, zyga perhaps there needs to be a python-devel or ubuntu-devel metapackage?
[06:53] <jdub> jsgotangco: it's already registered
[06:53] <jdub> TMM: that's sort of what we'll be approaching with the 'ubuntu platform' stuff
[06:53] <Robi-> zyga, where's the book now ?
[06:53] <jsgotangco> jdub: ah yes
[06:53] <TMM> jdub, is that on the wiki somewhere?
[06:54] <jdub> zyga: you can launch yelp with an html file as a parameter, but it's the wrong fix
[06:54] <jdub> TMM: not afaik
[06:54] <zyga> Robi-: dpkg-qurey -L diveintopython
[06:54] <jdub> maybe our old spec is there
[06:54] <zyga> everyone: thanks for noticing the issue 
[06:55] <zyga> sabdfl: how about a ubuntu-devel metapackage?
[06:55] <jdub> zyga: this is a bigger topic than just that
[06:55] <Robi-> ya i dont seem to have it
[06:56] <zyga> Robi-: ubuntu-desktop depends on diveintopython
[06:56] <sabdfl> zyga: the whole point is that python is the easy way to extend your desktop, for everybody
[06:56] <sabdfl> not heavy developers
[06:56] <zyga> sabdfl: okay
[06:56] <sabdfl> we don't add gcc, for example
[06:56] <zyga> sabdfl: so the menu link is all we add, agreed?
[06:56] <jdub> zyga: that's totally the wrong fix
[06:57] <sabdfl> time to focus on the rollout. zyga: sounds like a reasonable start, we can tweak it at UBZ. be nice if you could start work on a spec "introducing the world to python on Ubuntu"
[06:57] <zyga> jdub: okay, so how do you propose to fix, or rather -- imoprove this
[06:57] <zyga> sabdfl: I'll try but I'm busy with RL work *and* a really huge idea about translations
[06:58] <TMM> jdub, zyga, sabdfl  well, imho, on default install, there should either be meaningful documentation, and easy access to it, or none at all, and add it to a metapackage
[06:58] <zyga> sabdfl: (maybe you've heard about it someplace)
[06:59] <mvo> zyga: hi, sorry for the lag. I'm a bit busy with RL currently (having friends visiting)
[06:59] <zyga> mvo: hi, don't worry
[06:59] <jdub> zyga: 1) build search into the user-focused help browser (already a spec for discussion at UBZ), 2) make sure DIP is in devhelp for developer-focused documentation, 3) distinguish DIP's role in the desktop vs. python dev 'platform', 4) link to DIP more usefully from python scripting environments and embedded python documentation in general
[06:59] <zyga> mvo: feel free to leave me a message when you've got the time
[07:01] <jdub> TMM: in this case, it's already in the user-focused documentation browser, but probably badly categorised, it's not well-linked in useful places (gimp-python, for example), nor is it easy to find in a search because search doesn't exist in yelp yet
[07:02] <TMM> jdub, search seems to be the way to go then :D and perhaps add a tutorial on pyglade (I couldn't find it when I was looking, but I might just not have been able to find it)
[07:02] <jdub> a major contributor to all of this is the awkwardness of documentation across multiple project silos
[07:02] <TMM> jdub, pygtk is there 
[07:03] <jdub> TMM: got python-gtk2-doc?
[07:04] <TMM> jdub, yeah, it's in yelp too
[07:04] <zyga> brb, reboot
[07:04] <TMM> jdub, nothing about glade in there though. you'd have to know about the relation... 
[07:05] <jsgotangco> badly registered then or non-existant
[07:05] <mvo> zyga: ok
[07:09] <TMM> cool\
[07:09] <TMM> xen patches break all ISA stuff
[07:09] <TMM> :)
[07:10] <jsgotangco> good night
[07:49] <TMM> mjg59, ping?
[07:53] <Robi-> does anyone use vmware?
[07:54] <mjg59> TMM: Hi
[07:54] <TMM> hi mjg59 
[07:54] <Robi-> someone should make a vmware ubuntu image so it can be used with teh newly released freeware vmware vmc viewer
[07:55] <TMM> mjg59, did you have the chance to look at those hotkey patches in malone? and, is that the way you want to receive them? I've been carrying a breezy livecd and popping it into every laptop I come across to get keycodes, and I got a couple new ones
[07:55] <mjg59> TMM: There's a wiki page somewhere - if you could add them there, that would be great
[07:56] <TMM> mjg59, ok, cool.
[07:56] <kbrooks> Robi-: link
[07:56] <TMM> mjg59, and the compaq patch?
[07:56] <Kamion> Robi-: mdz has asked me to work on that this coming week
[07:56] <mjg59> TMM: Can't do anything until Dapper opens
[07:57] <mdz> s/do/upload/
[07:57] <Robi-> awesome
[07:57] <Robi-> vmware.com should have details
[07:57] <mdz> dapper will open soon, one way or another
[07:57] <TMM> mjg59, I just wondered if you thought it was ok, that's all :)
[07:57] <HiddenWolf> mdz, that doesn't sound good...
[07:57] <HiddenWolf> mdz, launchpad not holding it's own yet?
[07:57] <mdz> no, literally. there are two ways to do it and we will do one or another ;-)
[07:58] <Robi-> hopefully there'll be two images, a small basic install one and a full workstation one.. so there's choice
[07:58] <TMM> mjg59, no rush :)
[07:58] <ogra> mdz, is there a way for me to edit the description of https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/screensaver-default-image ? it doesnt really match what is meant :)
[07:58] <mdz> Robi-: once we've created a standard desktop image, anyone with vmware will be able to create new images and contribute them
[07:59] <mdz> ogra: yes it does; I wrote it and that's what I meant :-)
[07:59] <mdz> ogra: what do you think it should say?
[07:59] <Robi-> mdz: what's involved in making it?
[07:59] <ogra> mdz, sabdfl corrected it a bit when i asked why there is a spec for exchanging a single image file :)
[08:00] <mdz> Robi-: that's what Kamion will be learning
[08:00] <mdz> as far as the actual VM image, I think it's just a matter of saving it from a running VMWare session
[08:00] <ogra> mdz, he wants that the image dir of xscreensaver gets populated by community artwork, calendar etc... thedefault image should only be one aspect 
[08:01] <ogra> mdz, and the BOF to that pec should develop a general process how to get community artwork in there
[08:01] <ogra> *spec
[08:01] <Robi-> mdz: i see, yes, just get it working to a certain point, and zip/rar/tar up the vm directory
[08:01] <mdz> ogra: updated
[08:02] <ogra> mdz, thanks ... i wonder why i cand update it since i'm drafter for it :)
[08:02] <Robi-> mdz, but it would be really usefull to have one quickly that is just the base install.. basic english defaults..
[08:02] <ogra> *cant
[08:11] <sivang> mdz: have you read my overview SetupSnapshots (argh, what a terrible name) spec? What do you think about the general idea? (After discussing with people over here, I am looknig at making it easier then attempting to diff conffiles, more of an aggregation on top of a backup tool)
[08:12] <zyga> can anyone remind me the URL to #u-devel log files?
[08:12] <mdz> Robi-: feel free to contribute one
[08:12] <zyga> and the specs deadline
[08:13] <mdz> a desktop install sounds much more useful to me, though
[08:13] <Robi-> mdz: installing one now, server boot option..
[08:13] <Kamion> yeah, I expect to only work on one image due to time constraints
[08:13] <Kamion> zyga: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[08:14] <zyga> thank you Kamion 
[08:14] <Kamion> what are vmware's procedures for authenticating images they get?
[08:14] <sivang> zyga: 27th 
[08:14] <zyga> Kamion: if memcmp(image, "valid", sizeof "valid") ;-)
[08:14] <Kamion> (not that I expect anyone will know, but it's an obvious concern with contributed images)
[08:14] <zyga> sivang: darn, so little time
[08:16] <Robi-> mdz, kamion, should I use LVM? or plain scsi [1.1G]  lvm could be resized later..
[08:17] <mdz> Kamion: I expect vmware leaves that problem up to the user
[08:17] <mdz> Robi-: your call
[08:17] <Robi-> ok i'll stick to defaults for now
[08:19] <HiddenWolf> mdz, what exactly is happening on #launchpad?
[08:19] <HiddenWolf> mdz, moving the entire distro to launchpad?
[08:19] <mdz> HiddenWolf: using launchpad to manage the package archive
[08:19] <HiddenWolf> mdz, pfew
[08:20] <sivang> HiddenWolf: right
[08:20] <sivang> :)
[08:28] <jdub> Kamion: do you need vmware license details?
[08:28] <jdub> Kamion: or are you going to do it qith qemu?
[08:32] <mdz> jdub: he will need vmware
[08:34] <jdub> ok, i'll send them
[08:53] <Robi-> ok, the base install is all done, where can I stick it?
[08:54] <Robi-> mdz, kamion, where can I upload the image
[09:58] <mantiena> mdz, hi, are you online ?
[10:00] <mantiena> mdz, why this patch http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/casper/casper--automount/ is not included in casper-main or casper-breezy ?
[10:08] <jdub> pitti: what's "Turn Off Computer" in german?
[10:10] <jordi> jdub: dude, gnome-session source :)
[10:10] <jordi> hmm gdm actually
[10:11] <jordi> msgid "Shut _Down"
[10:11] <jordi> msgstr "_Herunterfahren"
[10:11] <jdub> heh
[10:11] <jordi> I was about to suggest that :)
[10:11] <jdub> hrm, don't actually mean shut down
[10:11] <jordi> what do you mean? Turn off, with the switch?
[10:12] <jdub> something slightly vaguer
[10:12] <jordi> msgstr "Den Computer _herunterfahren"
[10:12] <pitti> jdub: litereally, "Computer ausschalten"
[10:12] <jordi> Imagine a german saying "Computer"
[10:12] <pitti> jdub: it's a bit more obvious than "shut down"
[10:12] <jdub> like the difference between 'shut down' and 'turn off computer' ;)
[10:12] <jdub> pitti: thanks
[10:12] <pitti> jordi: it is translated as "Rechner", but "Computer" is really common her
[10:12] <pitti> e
[10:13] <jordi> pitti: nod
[10:13] <jdub> pitti: obvious as in "be off already!" or more about the process?
[10:13] <zyga> jdub: what are you trying to do?
[10:13] <pitti> jdub: obvious as being understand by more people
[10:13] <jdub> zyga: understand the length of the string
[10:13] <jdub> pitti: perfect, thanks :-)
[10:13] <jordi> pitti: theey use it for "host"
[10:13] <pitti> jdub: "shut down" is a more technical term
[10:13] <jordi> msgid "A_dd host: "
[10:13] <jordi> msgstr "Rechner _hinzufgen: "
[10:14] <pitti> jordi: "to compute" really means "rechnen"
[10:14] <jordi> aha
[10:14] <zyga> jdub: ????
[10:14] <zyga> jdub: understand strlen (or rather it's utf8 aware variant)
[10:15] <jdub> zyga: no, i wanted to know how long the words were
[10:15] <jdub> zyga: don't worry about it, i'm capable of asking questions myself :)
[10:15] <zyga> jdub: anyway grepping the .po files is a simple alternative 
[10:15] <jordi> where is mvo when I need him
[10:15] <jdub> zyga: it's not, when i want help from a german speaker
[10:16] <jdub> pitti: so in process terms for a normal user, would it make sense to click "Computer ausschalten" and then be given a choice between "_Herunterfahren", restart, etc?
[10:16] <zyga> well you got something similar or identical to what's in the .po file, or am I missing something obvious
[10:16] <jdub> zyga: i want to talk to a german about my question. don't worry about it.
[10:16] <zyga> jdub: ah, okay :)
[10:17] <pitti> jdub: it does not actually make sense - "ausschalten" means power off
[10:17] <pitti> jdub: so it would rather make sense the other way round
[10:17] <sivang> hey pitti 
[10:17] <pitti> jdub: first, ask for "shutdown" (herunterfahren)
[10:17] <pitti> jdub: then for "power off" (ausschalten), "restart" (neu starten), and so on
[10:17] <jdub> pitti: so in english, "turn off computer" -> shutdown/restart/suspend sort of works
[10:18] <sivang> jdub: joining the -de l10n team ? :)
[10:18] <pitti> jdub: from my POV it does not make sense in Englihs either
[10:18] <pitti> jdub: "turn off" means "power off", doesn't it?
[10:18] <jdub> pitti: yeah, it's a bit wishy-washy ;)
[10:18] <jdub> yeah
[10:18] <pitti> jdub: so it should bue "shutdown" -> power off, restart, etc.
[10:18] <jdub> it's kind of like, "What kind of turning off would you like?" ;-)
[10:18] <pitti> jdub: same distinction in German for "Herunterfahren" vs. "Ausschalten"
[10:19] <pitti> jdub: yes, it's hard to find a general term that comprises power off/hibernate/restart
[10:19] <jdub> pitti: i think the reason it mostly works in english is that 'shut down' has a specific technical meaning. it's still pretty bong though.
[10:19] <pitti> jdub: for gdm, "End session" could make sense
[10:20] <pitti> jdub: since it also offers you to log out the current user
[10:20] <jdub> ah, see, "log out" is a separate thing, so it's even more complicated ;)
[10:20] <jdub> windows xp quite sensibly splits these functions
[10:20] <pitti> but all four options terminate your session
[10:20] <jdub> log out -> quit / switch user
[10:20] <jdub> turn off -> shut down / reboot / suspend
[10:21] <pitti> well, as I said, for me "turn off" sounds more specific than shut down, but maybe it's just me
[10:22] <jdub> nah, there's awkwardness there
[10:27] <zyga> pitti: how about, power down
[10:27] <pitti> same problem - we don't need synonyms, we need a more abstract term
[10:27] <ajmitch> morning
[10:27] <pitti> Hi ajmitch 
[10:28] <zyga> pitti: what are you trying to accomplish with that?
[10:28] <zyga> pitti: deactivate?
[10:28] <zyga> pitti: computer, end program?
[10:28] <pitti> zyga: I don't try anything, jdub asked me for some translations, and we discussed which terms would fit best
[10:28] <sivang> pitti: what's up?
[10:29] <pitti> zyga: it's just odd that after I ask my computer to "turn off", I get asked whether to restart it
[10:29] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[10:29] <pitti> zyga: turn off is turn off, not restart
[10:29] <zyga> pitti: ah.....
[10:29] <zyga> pitti: I understand now 
[10:29] <zyga> pitti: I've got a great translation here
[10:30] <zyga> pitti: it says 'end work'
[10:30] <zyga> pitti: :D
[10:30] <pitti> ... and start playing :)
[10:30] <zyga> pitti: end session
[10:30] <pitti> "A train station is a place where the train stops. But what the heck is a workstation?"
[10:30] <pitti> zyga: hah, I proposed "end session", too
[10:30] <jdub> 'session' means nothing to the user, though
[10:31] <zyga> pitti: ask questions about what to do next ;-)
[10:31] <zyga> pitti, jdub: how about 'leave system'
[10:31] <jdub> 'system' doesn't mean anything
[10:31] <zyga> jdub: exactly
[10:31] <jdub> 'leave' means walk away
[10:32] <pitti> "go play with your children"
[10:32] <zyga> pitti: fine it could mean that
[10:33] <zyga> pitti: how about: "Logout and..." (submenu) "...restart", "...hibernate", "power down", "show login screen"
[10:33] <zyga> that could be good
[10:33] <pitti> zyga: I like that
[10:33] <zyga> the dimmed screen could just show 'are you sure you want to $BLAH'
[10:33] <zyga> and a yes / no button
[10:37] <zyga> jdub: how about you?
[10:38] <jdub> no, they're separate issues
[11:10] <lifeless> mjg59: any luck with dell ?
[11:11] <mjg59> lifeless: Need to chase them this week
[11:11] <mjg59> I've confirmed it in the Windows installer, plus in Windows safe mode
[11:11] <sivang> mdz: is there any sense in specing stuff before the actual discussion, or a spec entry in launchpad suffices? (then it would be later discussed and then spec'd ?)
[11:11] <mdz> sivang: it is reasonable to sketch an outline for the BOF discussion
[11:12] <mdz> agenda items etc.
[11:12] <sivang> mdz: ok, thanks. 
[11:12] <mdz> not to actually write the spec of course; that should be done after the discussion
[11:13] <mdz> unless it's not on the list for ubz
[11:13] <mdz> ...and that list hasn't been made yet ;-)
[11:16] <sivang> mdz: so that means that proof of concept code / programs are also irrelevant ? (I think I've seen in the past specs that already included some demo app code ,etc)
[11:17] <mdz> sivang: anything relevant to the discussion, yes. just add a comments section at the bottom
[11:17] <sivang> mdz: ok
[11:21] <jdub> BenC: ROCK!
[11:24] <infinity> mdz : When are the scheduling decisions being made?
[11:24] <mdz> infinity: at the last minute, as usual
[11:24] <infinity> Grantde, my spec probably doesn't need TOO much discussion, aside from assigning some tasks, and general buy-in that it's a good idea.
[11:24] <infinity> mdz : \o/
[11:25] <mdz> what is it?
[11:25] <infinity> ReducingDuplicationInMain (not on the wiki yet, but that's what it'll be called)
[11:26] <infinity> I've already been implementing it in sid, since dapper's not open yet. :)
[11:26] <infinity> Killing off old versions of libdb, libmysqlclient, etc.
[11:26] <infinity> I really want to do a rapid audit of main for private copies of libraries and kick them the heck out.
[11:26] <infinity> That sort of thing.
[11:26] <infinity> We're queueing up for a security support nightmare as it is, IMO.
[11:27] <jdub> http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/45917/index.html
[11:27] <mdz> go ahead and put it in the spec tracker
[11:27] <jdub> ^ blah blah firefox memory leak, firefox slow
[11:28] <mdz> jdub: people who follow those howtos are going to have such an interesting time upgrading their systems later
[11:28] <jdub> infinity: we going to switch to mysql 4.1 by default and things like that?
[11:28] <jdub> mdz: yeah :(
[11:28] <mdz> dpkg-divert should require --yes-its-my-own-fault if run from outside a maintainer script
[11:28] <infinity> jdub : yes, mysql 4.1 will be the default about 5 minutes after dapper opens, with a mass-rebuild of all mysql-using apps to gfollow.
[11:29] <jdub> infinity: ah, rock
[11:29] <infinity> jdub : I already did a license audit to make sure I can punt the LGPL libmysqlclient10 completely (and I can stop maintaining it upstream, YAY!)
[11:29] <jdub> infinity: php5?
[11:29] <infinity> What about php5?  It's in breezy.
[11:30] <jdub> oh yeah, we already did that switch
[11:30] <crimsun> jdub: perhaps I should enqueue a preemptive FAQ for that one and link to it in #ubuntu when Dapper opens
[11:30] <jdub> crimsun: "how do i unbreak my firefox"?
[11:30] <crimsun> jdub: something along those lines
[11:30] <infinity> MySQL 4.1 is high on the hit list, though.  Especially since we ran out of debugging time and ended up shipping breezy with a MySQL 4.0 that is B-R-O-K-E-N on PowerPC (fine on the other two arches, though)
[11:31] <jdub> d'oh
[11:32] <infinity> Kamion wasted a few hours on it, I wasted nearly a day, and Mithrandir blew another day or two, and we finally gave up in the end, pointing fingers alternately at MySQL upstream and the toolchain.
[11:33] <Robi-> mdz: it's done
[11:34] <infinity> At any rate, dapper should be a very solid server release, from where I'm sitting and surveying the lay of the land, so I'll be quite happy supporting it for 5 years.  Just needs a bit of tweak and polish to make me happy with it.
[11:34] <infinity> And a pretty massive code drop in the first week of development.
[11:35] <Robi-> mdz: where can I put it for you guys?
[11:35] <Kinnison> hihi
[11:35] <jdub> infinity: heh
[11:35] <mdz> Robi-: wherever you want; just announce it to ubuntu-devel or something
[11:35] <mdz> Robi-: once the CD image is ready, people can get it and swap it in if they want it
[11:44] <Robi-> mdz, i'd have to upload it somewhere...
[11:44] <Robi-> mdz, so you guys can use it if needed.. even Kamion 
[11:45] <mdz> Robi-: that's fine, upload it somewhere
[11:45] <Robi-> mdz, where? ;] 
[11:45] <mdz> it doesn't matter as long as it's there
[11:45] <Robi-> mdz, you wanna grab it then?
[11:45] <mdz> no, I do not have time to deal with it
[11:46] <mdz> managing a couple of crises right now
[11:54] <Robi-> ok, here it is.. VMware base install of Breezy.. => http://robi.poptix.net/Ubuntu Breezy - base install VMware VM.rar