/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/10/28/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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Belutzhello02:15
Belutzwhere should i write correction suggestion for the faqguide ?02:16
n1c0lasHi Belutz02:20
Belutzhi n1c0las 02:20
n1c0lasdid you chech the new doc.ubuntu.com?02:20
Belutznot yet02:20
Belutzi was seeing help.ubuntu.com02:20
n1c0lasThis one just went live and should contain answers to all your questions regarding helping out02:21
n1c0lashelp.u.c. is for help about ubuntu02:21
n1c0lasdoc.u.c is for the DocTeam02:21
Belutzi see02:22
Belutzok, i'll dig it out :-)02:23
n1c0lashave fun02:24
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rob^Belutz, just file a bug report in bugzilla on the faq guide05:28
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jsgotangcohi all07:56
Madpilotlo07:58
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bhuvananybody out there from wikiteam ?12:25
Madpilotbhuvan: me, I guess. What's up?12:26
bhuvanoh, ok. is there any time consuming mandatory wiki re-organisation work to be done ? if yes, let me know. i can contribute my time and improve it.12:28
Madpilotbhuvan: are you on the docteam mailing list? 12:28
bhuvanif you mean ubuntu-doc, yes.12:28
MadpilotThat might be a better place to ask12:28
mdkebhuvan, if you look at CategoryCleanup, you'll see some pages that need love12:29
mdkethat is a good place to start12:29
bhuvanok12:29
=== mdke yearns to get on planet
bhuvanok, if you dont mind, could you please explain what kind of clean up work is required ? if you explain for one component, it's more than suffice12:31
mdkebhuvan, basically some pages are not good guides12:32
bhuvanok12:33
mdkelet's take an example12:33
bhuvanok12:33
mdkenumber 13912:33
mdkehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostFix12:33
bhuvanok12:33
mdkethat guide is totally unintelligible to normal users12:34
mdkeand doesn't explain any of the steps12:34
mdkeas well as being badly formatted12:34
bhuvanok12:34
bhuvanok12:34
bhuvani understand, let me clean-up couple of pages based on my existing domain knowledge :)12:35
mdkecool, thanks and good luck12:35
Burgundaviamdke, freezing wiki pages is crack12:39
Burgundaviaand one wiki for all things is also crack12:39
Burgundaviawe are the only distro to do it, afaik12:39
mdkeas always, you are charming12:40
mdkenice to see you too12:40
Burgundaviaindeed12:41
mdkeare you saying freezing documentation is crack?12:41
Burgundaviayes and no12:41
mdke(that IS what you're saying)12:41
Burgundaviafreezing docs for translation is not crack12:41
mdkethe point of having our own wiki would be to allow only the docteam to edit it12:42
Burgundaviahmm, not what i imagined12:42
mdkewell that is the only possible purpose of having yet another wiki12:42
Burgundaviano it isn't12:42
mdkein my opinion it is12:43
mdkeit is intended as a dynamic website basically, we can do what we like with it12:43
BurgundaviaI want a seperate wiki so that people don't go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BluetoothSupport?highlight=%28CategorySpec%29 and expect to find help about bluetooth12:43
Burgundaviabecause they would go to help.ubuntu.com/wiki/Bluetooth and KNOW that they will find help there12:44
mdkeBurgundavia, i don't think that that is a major problem.12:44
mdkethey can search12:44
Burgundaviamdke, it is12:44
Burgundaviamdke, search is crap12:44
mdkewhy is it a major problem?12:44
BurgundaviaMadpilot and I have talked about this a fair amount12:44
Burgundaviamdke, libraries put information in different sections for a reason12:45
Burgundaviathe current wiki is basically a non-cateogrized library12:45
Burgundaviawhere you might find fiction is amongst the non-fiction12:45
Madpilothmmm... is someone taking my name in vain?12:45
Madpilot;)12:45
mdkeyes, but why is that a major problem12:45
Madpilothi all12:45
mdkehi Madpilot 12:46
Burgundaviamdke, because a lot of the specs are at confusing names12:46
mdkeso what?12:46
mdkehow long does it take the user to figure out that he is not going to get help at that page?12:46
Burgundaviamdke, as mpt says, by the time people go looking for help, it better be there12:46
mdke10 seconds?12:46
mdkeah12:46
Burgundaviaevery barrier you put in the way is a bad thing12:46
mdkeyes12:46
Burgundaviaspecs occupying the same space as docs is really not working12:47
Burgundaviathe random laptop testing/motu chatter isn't bad12:47
mdkeright, but don't forget that the wiki is not our primary documentation source, loads of stuff there is unreliable12:47
Burgundaviamdke, yes, but better visibility would lead to better editing12:48
mdkeanyhow, moving the documentation section is not the only solution12:48
Burgundavia"if you build it, they will come"12:48
mdkebut most of all, if you want to move that stuff, you better go somewhere higher than the -doc mailing list12:48
mdkei think a solution would be to hive the specs off, myself12:49
mdketo a subpage12:49
Burgundaviayes, but the specs and the other dev chatter belongs together12:49
Burgundaviait is easier to hive off the docs, at this point12:49
Madpilota thought: "dev.ubuntu.com" or something similar for the specs, BOFs and such...12:49
Madpilotleave the user-side stuff at wiki.u.c12:49
mdkeoh well12:50
Burgundaviawe do need to do something12:50
mdkethe command to merge the specs into the main wiki came from mark12:50
Burgundaviawe are racing towards a brick wall fast12:50
mdkeso you better talk to him12:50
Burgundaviamdke, hence why I sensed that it would be easier to hive off the docs12:50
mdkethat would still require you to talk to him12:50
mdkeespecially since we can't just move them to help.u.c12:51
Burgundaviashall I raise it at UBZ?12:51
mdkethe server wouldn't take it12:51
Burgundaviamdke, ok12:51
Burgundaviamdke,  ignoring the current technical issues, do you still oppose moving the wiki to help.ubuntu.com12:53
mdkei will think about it, i'm not sure12:53
mdkeprobably yes12:53
Burgundaviawhat do you see as the solution to better docs from the wiki?12:53
mdkei don't think there is one12:54
MadpilotBurgundavia: remember how many people know the current wiki URLs - moving the non-user-side stuff would be easier12:54
mdkeunless the manpower increases, and we can make a team of editors12:54
BurgundaviaMadpilot, yes, but that can be solved by redirects12:55
MadpilotBurgundavia: messy12:55
BurgundaviaMadpilot, not doing anything is going to be messier12:55
Burgundaviamdke, I don't see more people emerging under the current situatin12:55
Madpilotpeople are going to notice if, say, RestrictedFormats goes somewhere. Far fewer will be affected if the dev stuff is moved off...12:55
=== Burgundavia also wants mediawiki on help.u.c, but that is a fight for another day
mdkethat is not going to happen12:59
Burgundaviawhy not?12:59
mdkebecause the idea was to use moin and apply access controls so as to create a dynamic website for us01:00
Burgundaviahuh?01:00
mdkeas a precursor to moving all the ubuntu website to moin01:00
mdkea sort of test run01:00
Burgundaviamoving the entire site to moin?01:00
mdkeyep01:00
mdkeinstead of that plone crap01:01
Burgundaviaright01:01
=== Burgundavia is feeling discouraged
mdkemoin is excellent, stop whinging01:01
mdkeits quite good as a CMS01:01
Burgundaviamoin is complete and total crap from a user perspective01:01
Burgundaviasearch is crap01:02
Burgundaviapresentation is crap01:02
mdkepresentation is 100% configurable01:02
Burgundaviamarkup is crap01:02
Burgundaviaedit is crap01:02
mdkejeez you don't let go do you01:02
Burgundaviano, I don;t01:02
mdkewell let go01:02
mdkeit's boring01:02
mdkefile bugs with moin if you don't like it and try and improve it01:03
BurgundaviaI am not a programmer, nor will I likely ever be01:03
mdkeoh well01:04
mdkeyou are good at filing bugs01:04
Burgundaviafrom a user perspective, moin is kicked around the block by medawiki01:04
mdketry installing moin and play around with things01:04
mdkeyou will find it very configurable01:04
Burgundavianow, I completely understand it has performance issues and is PHP01:04
Burgundaviacan I drop CamelCase?01:05
mdkeof course01:05
mdkebut you can anyway01:06
mdkebtw have you ever seen newton (.sf.net)01:06
mdkeit is a little personal note taker wiki thing01:06
mdkefor gnome01:06
mdkeit is lovely01:06
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BurgundaviaI have played with it01:06
BurgundaviaI have hard time fitting something like newton or tomboy into my workflow01:06
mdkeah well01:07
mdkeits a good way of writing webpages quickly :)01:07
mdkelet's sleep on this help business01:07
Belutzhello all01:08
mdkei was thinking I would like to get more wiki docs into the distro, I might play around with putting some in xml01:08
mdkehi Belutz 01:09
Belutzmay I use the faqguide to train other people?01:09
Burgundaviamdke, what version of moin do we run?01:09
Belutzlike print it, and give it away to the trainee01:09
mdkeBurgundavia, where?01:10
mdkeBelutz, course01:10
Burgundaviamdke, wiki.u and help.u01:10
mdkehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo01:10
mdkethere is no moin on help.u.c yet01:10
Belutzmdke, and is it ok if I alter some of the faqguide ? like the dvd section?01:10
mdkeBelutz, i don't know about that, you'll have to read the licence I'm afraid01:11
mdkeprobably ok01:11
Belutzmdke, ok, thanks for the info :)01:11
Burgundaviamdke, to be honest, one of my huge issues with the ubuntu wiki is lack of responsiveness on hendriks part01:13
Burgundaviamdke, I have emailed him several times and got absolutely no response01:13
mdkesorry to hear that01:13
BurgundaviaI intend to deal with that at UBZ01:14
mdkeyou using henrik@u.c?01:14
mdkehe is good with email01:14
mdkealthough probably not with bugzilla01:14
Burgundaviato be honest, I gave up trying to contact him about 2 or 3 months ago01:14
mdkeunlikely that he will be at UBZ01:15
mdkeis there a list of attendees?01:15
mdkeah i see it01:15
Burgundaviahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/Attendees01:15
Burgundaviahe won't be there01:16
mdkeno01:16
BurgundaviaI am very interested in getting together with mpt and brainstorming about the wiki and help in general01:16
mdkego ahead01:17
mdkei'm going for a shower01:17
Burgundaviahttp://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Project/Wiki/MediaWikiFAQ01:19
mdkeBurgundavia, i've gotta go now, check out wiki.ubuntuusers.de for some nice work with moin01:24
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Kamping_Kaiserrob^: you about?03:55
jsgotangcoi doubt04:06
jsgotangcoheh04:06
Kamping_Kaiserlol. ok04:06
Kamping_Kaiseri was wondering if i should file bugs on sugestions, or (as i was going to do) ask him about it personaly04:06
jsgotangcofile it for personal torture :)04:08
jsgotangcoseriously though, you can file it as a wishlist04:08
Kamping_Kaiserhm. its jsut the wording sounds strange to me, but ok. ill stab myself in the face a bit more ;)04:08
jsgotangcoKamping_Kaiser: you're going to drive rob^ crazy heh05:47
Kamping_Kaiserlol. 05:47
Kamping_Kaiserwhy?05:47
jsgotangcomost of the doc bugs atm are always on him05:48
jsgotangcohehehe05:48
Kamping_Kaiserlol. i tried to pick 'serious' ones :|05:49
Kamping_Kaiseri skipped most of the spelling errors for the moment05:49
mdkebest thing is to wait for us/jbailey to merge the tree, then fix them yourself and send a patch06:17
Kamping_Kaiserso should i bugzilla them with patch? or should i just email the list with patch?06:18
mdkeemail the list06:20
mdkebut not until the merge has been done06:20
Kamping_Kaiserok. ill wait :)06:20
mdkeKamping_Kaiser, we have a wiki page which explains how to make and test patches, it is DocteamStepbyStepRepository06:20
mdkethat is a good page to get to know early on06:20
Kamping_Kaiseri had a quick look, so i will try to find time to go more in depth tomorrow (or might wait for the merge then redownload the svn sources)06:21
mdkeyou don't need to redownload it06:22
mdke"svn up" will update the source06:22
mdkedo it from the top level directory06:22
Kamping_Kaiserthanks. should i expect the merge soon? or ask in a week or so about it? 06:23
mdkeyes jbailey said he would try and have a go on monday06:23
Kamping_Kaiserok. so some time today :) thanks. 06:24
jsgotangcohey mdke 06:27
mdkehiya jerome06:27
mdkeKamping_Kaiser, monday for jeff is another 24 hours away, give or take06:27
Kamping_Kaiserloll. ok mdke. ill bear it on mind ;)06:28
jsgotangcomdke: there's no such thing as xubuntu atm, its a universe meta-package :(06:30
jsgotangcodunno why there's a need to even do stuff for it06:30
mdkewell presumably the meta package points at some xfce packages?06:32
mdkeeven so, we don't need to fork their docs IMO06:32
jsgotangcoyes06:32
jsgotangcomdke: i'd really just focus on partner projects really...06:33
mdkeagreed06:33
jsgotangconow that we have an ubuntu server, a server guide is more desired imo06:33
mdkeyeah that would rock06:35
jsgotangco*sigh*06:36
mdke?06:36
jsgotangconeed focus/alignment06:36
jsgotangco:)06:36
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mdkethat will come06:38
mdkei gtg06:38
jsgotangcoi got to sleep06:38
jsgotangco:)06:38
Kamping_Kaiserlatermate :006:39
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hyperactivecrondi'll do the install guide for dapper08:23
hyperactivecronds/do/write08:24
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hyperactivecrondok it says that we need a install guide written, yes?09:33
hyperactivecrondwhoops... it would help if we did put out a milestone cd b4 i write an install guide09:35
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N6REJapokryphos: I need some help11:09
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KinnisonHihi11:35
ajmitchhi11:38
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