=== Belutz [n=Belutz@202.155.150.72] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:15] hello [02:16] where should i write correction suggestion for the faqguide ? [02:20] Hi Belutz [02:20] hi n1c0las [02:20] did you chech the new doc.ubuntu.com? [02:20] not yet [02:20] i was seeing help.ubuntu.com [02:21] This one just went live and should contain answers to all your questions regarding helping out [02:21] help.u.c. is for help about ubuntu [02:21] doc.u.c is for the DocTeam [02:22] i see [02:23] ok, i'll dig it out :-) [02:24] have fun === Dubya [i=Owner@70.29.44.167] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Dubya [i=Owner@70.29.44.167] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [05:28] Belutz, just file a bug report in bugzilla on the faq guide === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-13-135.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === uniq_ [n=frode@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-doc === maskie [n=maskie@c1-89-13.wblv.isadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@info1-35.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:56] hi all [07:58] lo === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las [n=niklas@nicolas.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Karl@ppp209-139.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-181.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=ubuntu@59.92.42.218] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:25] anybody out there from wikiteam ? [12:26] bhuvan: me, I guess. What's up? [12:28] oh, ok. is there any time consuming mandatory wiki re-organisation work to be done ? if yes, let me know. i can contribute my time and improve it. [12:28] bhuvan: are you on the docteam mailing list? [12:28] if you mean ubuntu-doc, yes. [12:28] That might be a better place to ask [12:29] bhuvan, if you look at CategoryCleanup, you'll see some pages that need love [12:29] that is a good place to start [12:29] ok === mdke yearns to get on planet [12:31] ok, if you dont mind, could you please explain what kind of clean up work is required ? if you explain for one component, it's more than suffice [12:32] bhuvan, basically some pages are not good guides [12:33] ok [12:33] let's take an example [12:33] ok [12:33] number 139 [12:33] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostFix [12:33] ok [12:34] that guide is totally unintelligible to normal users [12:34] and doesn't explain any of the steps [12:34] as well as being badly formatted [12:34] ok [12:34] ok [12:35] i understand, let me clean-up couple of pages based on my existing domain knowledge :) [12:35] cool, thanks and good luck [12:39] mdke, freezing wiki pages is crack [12:39] and one wiki for all things is also crack [12:39] we are the only distro to do it, afaik [12:40] as always, you are charming [12:40] nice to see you too [12:41] indeed [12:41] are you saying freezing documentation is crack? [12:41] yes and no [12:41] (that IS what you're saying) [12:41] freezing docs for translation is not crack [12:42] the point of having our own wiki would be to allow only the docteam to edit it [12:42] hmm, not what i imagined [12:42] well that is the only possible purpose of having yet another wiki [12:42] no it isn't [12:43] in my opinion it is [12:43] it is intended as a dynamic website basically, we can do what we like with it [12:43] I want a seperate wiki so that people don't go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BluetoothSupport?highlight=%28CategorySpec%29 and expect to find help about bluetooth [12:44] because they would go to help.ubuntu.com/wiki/Bluetooth and KNOW that they will find help there [12:44] Burgundavia, i don't think that that is a major problem. [12:44] they can search [12:44] mdke, it is [12:44] mdke, search is crap [12:44] why is it a major problem? [12:44] Madpilot and I have talked about this a fair amount [12:45] mdke, libraries put information in different sections for a reason [12:45] the current wiki is basically a non-cateogrized library [12:45] where you might find fiction is amongst the non-fiction [12:45] hmmm... is someone taking my name in vain? [12:45] ;) [12:45] yes, but why is that a major problem [12:45] hi all [12:46] hi Madpilot [12:46] mdke, because a lot of the specs are at confusing names [12:46] so what? [12:46] how long does it take the user to figure out that he is not going to get help at that page? [12:46] mdke, as mpt says, by the time people go looking for help, it better be there [12:46] 10 seconds? [12:46] ah [12:46] every barrier you put in the way is a bad thing [12:46] yes [12:47] specs occupying the same space as docs is really not working [12:47] the random laptop testing/motu chatter isn't bad [12:47] right, but don't forget that the wiki is not our primary documentation source, loads of stuff there is unreliable [12:48] mdke, yes, but better visibility would lead to better editing [12:48] anyhow, moving the documentation section is not the only solution [12:48] "if you build it, they will come" [12:48] but most of all, if you want to move that stuff, you better go somewhere higher than the -doc mailing list [12:49] i think a solution would be to hive the specs off, myself [12:49] to a subpage [12:49] yes, but the specs and the other dev chatter belongs together [12:49] it is easier to hive off the docs, at this point [12:49] a thought: "dev.ubuntu.com" or something similar for the specs, BOFs and such... [12:49] leave the user-side stuff at wiki.u.c [12:50] oh well [12:50] we do need to do something [12:50] the command to merge the specs into the main wiki came from mark [12:50] we are racing towards a brick wall fast [12:50] so you better talk to him [12:50] mdke, hence why I sensed that it would be easier to hive off the docs [12:50] that would still require you to talk to him [12:51] especially since we can't just move them to help.u.c [12:51] shall I raise it at UBZ? [12:51] the server wouldn't take it [12:51] mdke, ok [12:53] mdke, ignoring the current technical issues, do you still oppose moving the wiki to help.ubuntu.com [12:53] i will think about it, i'm not sure [12:53] probably yes [12:53] what do you see as the solution to better docs from the wiki? [12:54] i don't think there is one [12:54] Burgundavia: remember how many people know the current wiki URLs - moving the non-user-side stuff would be easier [12:54] unless the manpower increases, and we can make a team of editors [12:55] Madpilot, yes, but that can be solved by redirects [12:55] Burgundavia: messy [12:55] Madpilot, not doing anything is going to be messier [12:55] mdke, I don't see more people emerging under the current situatin [12:55] people are going to notice if, say, RestrictedFormats goes somewhere. Far fewer will be affected if the dev stuff is moved off... === Burgundavia also wants mediawiki on help.u.c, but that is a fight for another day [12:59] that is not going to happen [12:59] why not? [01:00] because the idea was to use moin and apply access controls so as to create a dynamic website for us [01:00] huh? [01:00] as a precursor to moving all the ubuntu website to moin [01:00] a sort of test run [01:00] moving the entire site to moin? [01:00] yep [01:01] instead of that plone crap [01:01] right === Burgundavia is feeling discouraged [01:01] moin is excellent, stop whinging [01:01] its quite good as a CMS [01:01] moin is complete and total crap from a user perspective [01:02] search is crap [01:02] presentation is crap [01:02] presentation is 100% configurable [01:02] markup is crap [01:02] edit is crap [01:02] jeez you don't let go do you [01:02] no, I don;t [01:02] well let go [01:02] it's boring [01:03] file bugs with moin if you don't like it and try and improve it [01:03] I am not a programmer, nor will I likely ever be [01:04] oh well [01:04] you are good at filing bugs [01:04] from a user perspective, moin is kicked around the block by medawiki [01:04] try installing moin and play around with things [01:04] you will find it very configurable [01:04] now, I completely understand it has performance issues and is PHP [01:05] can I drop CamelCase? [01:05] of course [01:06] but you can anyway [01:06] btw have you ever seen newton (.sf.net) [01:06] it is a little personal note taker wiki thing [01:06] for gnome [01:06] it is lovely === Belutz [n=Belutz@202.155.150.72] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:06] I have played with it [01:06] I have hard time fitting something like newton or tomboy into my workflow [01:07] ah well [01:07] its a good way of writing webpages quickly :) [01:07] let's sleep on this help business [01:08] hello all [01:08] i was thinking I would like to get more wiki docs into the distro, I might play around with putting some in xml [01:09] hi Belutz [01:09] may I use the faqguide to train other people? [01:09] mdke, what version of moin do we run? [01:09] like print it, and give it away to the trainee [01:10] Burgundavia, where? [01:10] Belutz, course [01:10] mdke, wiki.u and help.u [01:10] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo [01:10] there is no moin on help.u.c yet [01:10] mdke, and is it ok if I alter some of the faqguide ? like the dvd section? [01:11] Belutz, i don't know about that, you'll have to read the licence I'm afraid [01:11] probably ok [01:11] mdke, ok, thanks for the info :) [01:13] mdke, to be honest, one of my huge issues with the ubuntu wiki is lack of responsiveness on hendriks part [01:13] mdke, I have emailed him several times and got absolutely no response [01:13] sorry to hear that [01:14] I intend to deal with that at UBZ [01:14] you using henrik@u.c? [01:14] he is good with email [01:14] although probably not with bugzilla [01:14] to be honest, I gave up trying to contact him about 2 or 3 months ago [01:15] unlikely that he will be at UBZ [01:15] is there a list of attendees? [01:15] ah i see it [01:15] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/Attendees [01:16] he won't be there [01:16] no [01:16] I am very interested in getting together with mpt and brainstorming about the wiki and help in general [01:17] go ahead [01:17] i'm going for a shower [01:19] http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Project/Wiki/MediaWikiFAQ [01:24] Burgundavia, i've gotta go now, check out wiki.ubuntuusers.de for some nice work with moin === ealden [n=ealden@ipdial-167-134.tri-isys.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob^ [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@info1-220.info.com.ph] has joined #ubuntu-doc === johnl [n=johnl@84-45-214-42.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:55] rob^: you about? [04:06] i doubt [04:06] heh [04:06] lol. ok [04:06] i was wondering if i should file bugs on sugestions, or (as i was going to do) ask him about it personaly [04:08] file it for personal torture :) [04:08] seriously though, you can file it as a wishlist [04:08] hm. its jsut the wording sounds strange to me, but ok. ill stab myself in the face a bit more ;) [05:47] Kamping_Kaiser: you're going to drive rob^ crazy heh [05:47] lol. [05:47] why? [05:48] most of the doc bugs atm are always on him [05:48] hehehe [05:49] lol. i tried to pick 'serious' ones :| [05:49] i skipped most of the spelling errors for the moment [06:17] best thing is to wait for us/jbailey to merge the tree, then fix them yourself and send a patch [06:18] so should i bugzilla them with patch? or should i just email the list with patch? [06:20] email the list [06:20] but not until the merge has been done [06:20] ok. ill wait :) [06:20] Kamping_Kaiser, we have a wiki page which explains how to make and test patches, it is DocteamStepbyStepRepository [06:20] that is a good page to get to know early on [06:21] i had a quick look, so i will try to find time to go more in depth tomorrow (or might wait for the merge then redownload the svn sources) [06:22] you don't need to redownload it [06:22] "svn up" will update the source [06:22] do it from the top level directory [06:23] thanks. should i expect the merge soon? or ask in a week or so about it? [06:23] yes jbailey said he would try and have a go on monday [06:24] ok. so some time today :) thanks. [06:27] hey mdke [06:27] hiya jerome [06:27] Kamping_Kaiser, monday for jeff is another 24 hours away, give or take [06:28] loll. ok mdke. ill bear it on mind ;) [06:30] mdke: there's no such thing as xubuntu atm, its a universe meta-package :( [06:30] dunno why there's a need to even do stuff for it [06:32] well presumably the meta package points at some xfce packages? [06:32] even so, we don't need to fork their docs IMO [06:32] yes [06:33] mdke: i'd really just focus on partner projects really... [06:33] agreed [06:33] now that we have an ubuntu server, a server guide is more desired imo [06:35] yeah that would rock [06:36] *sigh* [06:36] ? [06:36] need focus/alignment [06:36] :) === GyRoS^ [n=gyros@dsl5400A339.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === GyRoS^ [n=gyros@dsl5400A339.pool.t-online.hu] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [06:38] that will come [06:38] i gtg [06:38] i got to sleep [06:38] :) [06:39] latermate :0 === highvoltage [n=Jono@edison.tsf.org.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hyperactivecrond [n=chris@adsl-68-255-252-204.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === thechitowncubs [n=thechito@c-67-175-52-127.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:23] i'll do the install guide for dapper [08:24] s/do/write === jordi [n=jordi@115.Red-213-96-69.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [09:33] ok it says that we need a install guide written, yes? [09:35] whoops... it would help if we did put out a milestone cd b4 i write an install guide === hyperactivecrond [n=chris@adsl-68-255-252-204.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] === ajmitch [n=ajmitch@port162-102.ubs.maxnet.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === N6REJ [n=cogyfarm@216.139.123.164] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:09] apokryphos: I need some help === N6REJ [n=cogyfarm@216.139.123.164] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [11:35] Hihi [11:38] hi === n1c0las_ [n=nicolas@nicolas.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc