[02:15] <Belutz> hello
[02:16] <Belutz> where should i write correction suggestion for the faqguide ?
[02:20] <n1c0las> Hi Belutz
[02:20] <Belutz> hi n1c0las 
[02:20] <n1c0las> did you chech the new doc.ubuntu.com?
[02:20] <Belutz> not yet
[02:20] <Belutz> i was seeing help.ubuntu.com
[02:21] <n1c0las> This one just went live and should contain answers to all your questions regarding helping out
[02:21] <n1c0las> help.u.c. is for help about ubuntu
[02:21] <n1c0las> doc.u.c is for the DocTeam
[02:22] <Belutz> i see
[02:23] <Belutz> ok, i'll dig it out :-)
[02:24] <n1c0las> have fun
[05:28] <rob^> Belutz, just file a bug report in bugzilla on the faq guide
[07:56] <jsgotangco> hi all
[07:58] <Madpilot> lo
[12:25] <bhuvan> anybody out there from wikiteam ?
[12:26] <Madpilot> bhuvan: me, I guess. What's up?
[12:28] <bhuvan> oh, ok. is there any time consuming mandatory wiki re-organisation work to be done ? if yes, let me know. i can contribute my time and improve it.
[12:28] <Madpilot> bhuvan: are you on the docteam mailing list? 
[12:28] <bhuvan> if you mean ubuntu-doc, yes.
[12:28] <Madpilot> That might be a better place to ask
[12:29] <mdke> bhuvan, if you look at CategoryCleanup, you'll see some pages that need love
[12:29] <mdke> that is a good place to start
[12:29] <bhuvan> ok
[12:31] <bhuvan> ok, if you dont mind, could you please explain what kind of clean up work is required ? if you explain for one component, it's more than suffice
[12:32] <mdke> bhuvan, basically some pages are not good guides
[12:33] <bhuvan> ok
[12:33] <mdke> let's take an example
[12:33] <bhuvan> ok
[12:33] <mdke> number 139
[12:33] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostFix
[12:33] <bhuvan> ok
[12:34] <mdke> that guide is totally unintelligible to normal users
[12:34] <mdke> and doesn't explain any of the steps
[12:34] <mdke> as well as being badly formatted
[12:34] <bhuvan> ok
[12:34] <bhuvan> ok
[12:35] <bhuvan> i understand, let me clean-up couple of pages based on my existing domain knowledge :)
[12:35] <mdke> cool, thanks and good luck
[12:39] <Burgundavia> mdke, freezing wiki pages is crack
[12:39] <Burgundavia> and one wiki for all things is also crack
[12:39] <Burgundavia> we are the only distro to do it, afaik
[12:40] <mdke> as always, you are charming
[12:40] <mdke> nice to see you too
[12:41] <Burgundavia> indeed
[12:41] <mdke> are you saying freezing documentation is crack?
[12:41] <Burgundavia> yes and no
[12:41] <mdke> (that IS what you're saying)
[12:41] <Burgundavia> freezing docs for translation is not crack
[12:42] <mdke> the point of having our own wiki would be to allow only the docteam to edit it
[12:42] <Burgundavia> hmm, not what i imagined
[12:42] <mdke> well that is the only possible purpose of having yet another wiki
[12:42] <Burgundavia> no it isn't
[12:43] <mdke> in my opinion it is
[12:43] <mdke> it is intended as a dynamic website basically, we can do what we like with it
[12:43] <Burgundavia> I want a seperate wiki so that people don't go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BluetoothSupport?highlight=%28CategorySpec%29 and expect to find help about bluetooth
[12:44] <Burgundavia> because they would go to help.ubuntu.com/wiki/Bluetooth and KNOW that they will find help there
[12:44] <mdke> Burgundavia, i don't think that that is a major problem.
[12:44] <mdke> they can search
[12:44] <Burgundavia> mdke, it is
[12:44] <Burgundavia> mdke, search is crap
[12:44] <mdke> why is it a major problem?
[12:44] <Burgundavia> Madpilot and I have talked about this a fair amount
[12:45] <Burgundavia> mdke, libraries put information in different sections for a reason
[12:45] <Burgundavia> the current wiki is basically a non-cateogrized library
[12:45] <Burgundavia> where you might find fiction is amongst the non-fiction
[12:45] <Madpilot> hmmm... is someone taking my name in vain?
[12:45] <Madpilot> ;)
[12:45] <mdke> yes, but why is that a major problem
[12:45] <Madpilot> hi all
[12:46] <mdke> hi Madpilot 
[12:46] <Burgundavia> mdke, because a lot of the specs are at confusing names
[12:46] <mdke> so what?
[12:46] <mdke> how long does it take the user to figure out that he is not going to get help at that page?
[12:46] <Burgundavia> mdke, as mpt says, by the time people go looking for help, it better be there
[12:46] <mdke> 10 seconds?
[12:46] <mdke> ah
[12:46] <Burgundavia> every barrier you put in the way is a bad thing
[12:46] <mdke> yes
[12:47] <Burgundavia> specs occupying the same space as docs is really not working
[12:47] <Burgundavia> the random laptop testing/motu chatter isn't bad
[12:47] <mdke> right, but don't forget that the wiki is not our primary documentation source, loads of stuff there is unreliable
[12:48] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes, but better visibility would lead to better editing
[12:48] <mdke> anyhow, moving the documentation section is not the only solution
[12:48] <Burgundavia> "if you build it, they will come"
[12:48] <mdke> but most of all, if you want to move that stuff, you better go somewhere higher than the -doc mailing list
[12:49] <mdke> i think a solution would be to hive the specs off, myself
[12:49] <mdke> to a subpage
[12:49] <Burgundavia> yes, but the specs and the other dev chatter belongs together
[12:49] <Burgundavia> it is easier to hive off the docs, at this point
[12:49] <Madpilot> a thought: "dev.ubuntu.com" or something similar for the specs, BOFs and such...
[12:49] <Madpilot> leave the user-side stuff at wiki.u.c
[12:50] <mdke> oh well
[12:50] <Burgundavia> we do need to do something
[12:50] <mdke> the command to merge the specs into the main wiki came from mark
[12:50] <Burgundavia> we are racing towards a brick wall fast
[12:50] <mdke> so you better talk to him
[12:50] <Burgundavia> mdke, hence why I sensed that it would be easier to hive off the docs
[12:50] <mdke> that would still require you to talk to him
[12:51] <mdke> especially since we can't just move them to help.u.c
[12:51] <Burgundavia> shall I raise it at UBZ?
[12:51] <mdke> the server wouldn't take it
[12:51] <Burgundavia> mdke, ok
[12:53] <Burgundavia> mdke,  ignoring the current technical issues, do you still oppose moving the wiki to help.ubuntu.com
[12:53] <mdke> i will think about it, i'm not sure
[12:53] <mdke> probably yes
[12:53] <Burgundavia> what do you see as the solution to better docs from the wiki?
[12:54] <mdke> i don't think there is one
[12:54] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: remember how many people know the current wiki URLs - moving the non-user-side stuff would be easier
[12:54] <mdke> unless the manpower increases, and we can make a team of editors
[12:55] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes, but that can be solved by redirects
[12:55] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: messy
[12:55] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, not doing anything is going to be messier
[12:55] <Burgundavia> mdke, I don't see more people emerging under the current situatin
[12:55] <Madpilot> people are going to notice if, say, RestrictedFormats goes somewhere. Far fewer will be affected if the dev stuff is moved off...
[12:59] <mdke> that is not going to happen
[12:59] <Burgundavia> why not?
[01:00] <mdke> because the idea was to use moin and apply access controls so as to create a dynamic website for us
[01:00] <Burgundavia> huh?
[01:00] <mdke> as a precursor to moving all the ubuntu website to moin
[01:00] <mdke> a sort of test run
[01:00] <Burgundavia> moving the entire site to moin?
[01:00] <mdke> yep
[01:01] <mdke> instead of that plone crap
[01:01] <Burgundavia> right
[01:01] <mdke> moin is excellent, stop whinging
[01:01] <mdke> its quite good as a CMS
[01:01] <Burgundavia> moin is complete and total crap from a user perspective
[01:02] <Burgundavia> search is crap
[01:02] <Burgundavia> presentation is crap
[01:02] <mdke> presentation is 100% configurable
[01:02] <Burgundavia> markup is crap
[01:02] <Burgundavia> edit is crap
[01:02] <mdke> jeez you don't let go do you
[01:02] <Burgundavia> no, I don;t
[01:02] <mdke> well let go
[01:02] <mdke> it's boring
[01:03] <mdke> file bugs with moin if you don't like it and try and improve it
[01:03] <Burgundavia> I am not a programmer, nor will I likely ever be
[01:04] <mdke> oh well
[01:04] <mdke> you are good at filing bugs
[01:04] <Burgundavia> from a user perspective, moin is kicked around the block by medawiki
[01:04] <mdke> try installing moin and play around with things
[01:04] <mdke> you will find it very configurable
[01:04] <Burgundavia> now, I completely understand it has performance issues and is PHP
[01:05] <Burgundavia> can I drop CamelCase?
[01:05] <mdke> of course
[01:06] <mdke> but you can anyway
[01:06] <mdke> btw have you ever seen newton (.sf.net)
[01:06] <mdke> it is a little personal note taker wiki thing
[01:06] <mdke> for gnome
[01:06] <mdke> it is lovely
[01:06] <Burgundavia> I have played with it
[01:06] <Burgundavia> I have hard time fitting something like newton or tomboy into my workflow
[01:07] <mdke> ah well
[01:07] <mdke> its a good way of writing webpages quickly :)
[01:07] <mdke> let's sleep on this help business
[01:08] <Belutz> hello all
[01:08] <mdke> i was thinking I would like to get more wiki docs into the distro, I might play around with putting some in xml
[01:09] <mdke> hi Belutz 
[01:09] <Belutz> may I use the faqguide to train other people?
[01:09] <Burgundavia> mdke, what version of moin do we run?
[01:09] <Belutz> like print it, and give it away to the trainee
[01:10] <mdke> Burgundavia, where?
[01:10] <mdke> Belutz, course
[01:10] <Burgundavia> mdke, wiki.u and help.u
[01:10] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo
[01:10] <mdke> there is no moin on help.u.c yet
[01:10] <Belutz> mdke, and is it ok if I alter some of the faqguide ? like the dvd section?
[01:11] <mdke> Belutz, i don't know about that, you'll have to read the licence I'm afraid
[01:11] <mdke> probably ok
[01:11] <Belutz> mdke, ok, thanks for the info :)
[01:13] <Burgundavia> mdke, to be honest, one of my huge issues with the ubuntu wiki is lack of responsiveness on hendriks part
[01:13] <Burgundavia> mdke, I have emailed him several times and got absolutely no response
[01:13] <mdke> sorry to hear that
[01:14] <Burgundavia> I intend to deal with that at UBZ
[01:14] <mdke> you using henrik@u.c?
[01:14] <mdke> he is good with email
[01:14] <mdke> although probably not with bugzilla
[01:14] <Burgundavia> to be honest, I gave up trying to contact him about 2 or 3 months ago
[01:15] <mdke> unlikely that he will be at UBZ
[01:15] <mdke> is there a list of attendees?
[01:15] <mdke> ah i see it
[01:15] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/Attendees
[01:16] <Burgundavia> he won't be there
[01:16] <mdke> no
[01:16] <Burgundavia> I am very interested in getting together with mpt and brainstorming about the wiki and help in general
[01:17] <mdke> go ahead
[01:17] <mdke> i'm going for a shower
[01:19] <Burgundavia> http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Project/Wiki/MediaWikiFAQ
[01:24] <mdke> Burgundavia, i've gotta go now, check out wiki.ubuntuusers.de for some nice work with moin
[03:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> rob^: you about?
[04:06] <jsgotangco> i doubt
[04:06] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol. ok
[04:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> i was wondering if i should file bugs on sugestions, or (as i was going to do) ask him about it personaly
[04:08] <jsgotangco> file it for personal torture :)
[04:08] <jsgotangco> seriously though, you can file it as a wishlist
[04:08] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. its jsut the wording sounds strange to me, but ok. ill stab myself in the face a bit more ;)
[05:47] <jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: you're going to drive rob^ crazy heh
[05:47] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol. 
[05:47] <Kamping_Kaiser> why?
[05:48] <jsgotangco> most of the doc bugs atm are always on him
[05:48] <jsgotangco> hehehe
[05:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol. i tried to pick 'serious' ones :|
[05:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> i skipped most of the spelling errors for the moment
[06:17] <mdke> best thing is to wait for us/jbailey to merge the tree, then fix them yourself and send a patch
[06:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> so should i bugzilla them with patch? or should i just email the list with patch?
[06:20] <mdke> email the list
[06:20] <mdke> but not until the merge has been done
[06:20] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. ill wait :)
[06:20] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, we have a wiki page which explains how to make and test patches, it is DocteamStepbyStepRepository
[06:20] <mdke> that is a good page to get to know early on
[06:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> i had a quick look, so i will try to find time to go more in depth tomorrow (or might wait for the merge then redownload the svn sources)
[06:22] <mdke> you don't need to redownload it
[06:22] <mdke> "svn up" will update the source
[06:22] <mdke> do it from the top level directory
[06:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> thanks. should i expect the merge soon? or ask in a week or so about it? 
[06:23] <mdke> yes jbailey said he would try and have a go on monday
[06:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. so some time today :) thanks. 
[06:27] <jsgotangco> hey mdke 
[06:27] <mdke> hiya jerome
[06:27] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, monday for jeff is another 24 hours away, give or take
[06:28] <Kamping_Kaiser> loll. ok mdke. ill bear it on mind ;)
[06:30] <jsgotangco> mdke: there's no such thing as xubuntu atm, its a universe meta-package :(
[06:30] <jsgotangco> dunno why there's a need to even do stuff for it
[06:32] <mdke> well presumably the meta package points at some xfce packages?
[06:32] <mdke> even so, we don't need to fork their docs IMO
[06:32] <jsgotangco> yes
[06:33] <jsgotangco> mdke: i'd really just focus on partner projects really...
[06:33] <mdke> agreed
[06:33] <jsgotangco> now that we have an ubuntu server, a server guide is more desired imo
[06:35] <mdke> yeah that would rock
[06:36] <jsgotangco> *sigh*
[06:36] <mdke> ?
[06:36] <jsgotangco> need focus/alignment
[06:36] <jsgotangco> :)
[06:38] <mdke> that will come
[06:38] <mdke> i gtg
[06:38] <jsgotangco> i got to sleep
[06:38] <jsgotangco> :)
[06:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> latermate :0
[08:23] <hyperactivecrond> i'll do the install guide for dapper
[08:24] <hyperactivecrond> s/do/write
[09:33] <hyperactivecrond> ok it says that we need a install guide written, yes?
[09:35] <hyperactivecrond> whoops... it would help if we did put out a milestone cd b4 i write an install guide
[11:09] <N6REJ> apokryphos: I need some help
[11:35] <Kinnison> Hihi
[11:38] <ajmitch> hi