[07:08] <odie5533> What is edubuntu's mission statement?
[07:09] <odie5533> Hmm is anyone actually here?
[07:11] <phiqtion> edubuntu looks cool
[07:11] <phiqtion> can i add it to gnome and kde?
[07:12] <odie5533> What for ajmitch_ ?
[07:12] <ajmitch_> odie5533: UbuntuBelowZero developer summit 
[07:12] <odie5533> ah
[07:12] <odie5533> ajmitch_, are you familiar with edubuntu?
[07:13] <ajmitch_> not really, sadly
[07:13] <phiqtion> edubuntu, can i add it to ubuntu and kubuntu?
[07:13] <phiqtion> or is it just files?
[07:13] <odie5533> phiqtion, my question exactly
[07:13] <ajmitch_> phiqtion: edubuntu isn't yet another desktop
[07:14] <odie5533> I don't want to change my home desktop but I want to test it out
[07:14] <phiqtion> oh okay
[07:14] <ajmitch_> it's a system that uses LTSP to enable thin terminal setup for a classroom, with education software & classroom management tools
[07:14] <ajmitch_> hey Burgundavia 
[07:15] <odie5533> My mom's class (4th grade) has a few extra pcs that aren't used. I thought edubuntu might be a good option, but I don't really want to preach something I've never actually tried
[07:15] <ajmitch_> you can install a workstation or a server setup
[07:15] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: you CAN istall edubuntu as a desktop
[07:15] <ajmitch_> Yagisan: as I said :)
[07:15] <odie5533> as a workstation on my home pc?
[07:16] <Yagisan> ajmitch_ bah- lag here
[07:16] <ajmitch_> odie5533: yes, if you wished
[07:16] <odie5533> I wanted to try it on my pc, but I am running Ubuntu already. I don't want edubuntu to really mess up anything I have installed
[07:16] <Yagisan> odie5533: yeah - there should be an edubuntu-desktop package in breezy
[07:17] <odie5533> If I install that, will it change, or intefere with anything else? and can I uninstall it easily?
[07:17] <ajmitch_> Yagisan: which sort of corrects my earlier statement, but it's still gnome (or kde if you choose)
[07:17] <Yagisan> odie5533: if you don't like it, uninstall edubuntu-desktop.
[07:17] <odie5533> Will that take all it's packages with it?
[07:18] <Yagisan> basically, it adds educational packages, but it should remove them if you remove edubuntu-desktop
[07:18] <odie5533> it should or it will?
[07:18] <Yagisan> odie5533: edubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-desktop share most core packages
[07:19] <odie5533> I don't want to be stuck with half edubuntu half ubuntu pc =/
[07:19] <Yagisan> odie5533: I will say should - as I've never needed to uninstall it
[07:19] <Yagisan> odie5533: ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu, xubuntu are all the one system
[07:19] <odie5533> Yagisan, on your current desktop, do you see the edubuntu packages in the menus and such?
[07:19] <ajmitch_> Yagisan: if you grab it with apt-get, apt-get won't track what was installed as a dependency
[07:20] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: I though they used synaptic
[07:20] <ajmitch_> Yagisan: sure, most people do :)
[07:20] <Yagisan> odie5533: on this box no, on my edubuntu box, yes
[07:20] <odie5533> so from ubuntu you can see the edubuntu packages? Thats what I didn't want...
[07:20] <Yagisan> odie5533: I believe there are some screenshots in the wiki
[07:21] <odie5533> Edubuntu has loads of dependancies. If I delete the edubuntu-desktop, will it take the dependancies with it?
[07:21] <ajmitch_> odie5533: the packages are in the same archive
[07:21] <Yagisan> odie5533: please re-read this ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu, xubuntu are all the one system
[07:22] <odie5533> =/ they really should make a live cd
[07:22] <Yagisan> odie5533: when you install eg a kubuntu app, it usually appears in all the *ubuntu menus
[07:22] <odie5533> I think I'll hold off trying it then...
[07:22] <Yagisan> odie5533: eg I use k3b from kubuntu, because I like it better then gnometoaster in ubuntu
[07:23] <odie5533> My home pc could do without Tux Paint...
[07:23] <Yagisan> odie5533: why do you want to try edubuntu ?
[07:23] <odie5533> For my mom really
[07:24] <odie5533> She is a teacher in a very poor area with a few pcs that don't work well
[07:24] <odie5533> ^4th grade
[07:24] <Yagisan> odie5533: this should work fine for her
[07:24] <Yagisan> odie5533: do you have a spare pc ?
[07:24] <odie5533> I don't atm
[07:24] <odie5533> thats the problem
[07:25] <Yagisan> odie5533: vmware ?
[07:25] <odie5533> I don't have a copy =/
[07:25] <Yagisan> odie5533: ok. edubuntu works exactly like ubuntu
[07:25] <odie5533> How many schools use Edubuntu?
[07:25] <Yagisan> odie5533: I have no idea, I ah use it for work
[07:26] <odie5533> At work?
[07:26] <odie5533> where do you work?
[07:26] <Yagisan> odie5533: I customised it for my small business, I liked the fact that it let me reuse old pc's
[07:26] <odie5533> I see
[07:27] <odie5533> customised it? You must be really knowledgable of edubuntu then ;)
[07:28] <Yagisan> odie5533: I wish, I'm more familiar with the non-educational side of it (I'm not a developer either)
[07:28] <odie5533> Why not use plain Ubuntu?
[07:29] <Yagisan> odie5533: If you install edubuntu-desktop with synaptic, it will remember what edubuntu-desktop installs
[07:29] <Yagisan> odie5533: if you don't like it, remove it with synaptic and it will remove what edubuntu-desktop installs
[07:29] <odie5533> It doesn't always do complete uninstalls. Leaves little config files all around my pc
[07:30] <Yagisan> odie5533: select "Mark for Complete removal" in sysnaptic
[07:30] <odie5533> It won't remove the dependancies
[07:30] <odie5533> I'll have to go down a huge list searching for 100 packages
[07:31] <Yagisan> odie5533: plain ubuntu also didn't suit me.
[07:31] <Yagisan> odie5533: give me a moment - I test it
[07:32] <odie5533> don't mess up your pc for me!
[07:32] <Yagisan> odie5533: don't worry - I can fix it if i break it
[07:33] <Yagisan> odie5533: this will take a short while 120MB down a small pipe
[07:35] <odie5533> Do you know what LSTP is?
[07:35] <Yagisan> odie5533: oh yes
[07:35] <odie5533> What is it?
[07:36] <Yagisan> odie5533: that it the linux terminal services project
[07:36] <Yagisan> odie5533: it lets you uses thin clients (or old pcs) as terminals attached to a more poerful pc
[07:36] <Yagisan> *powerful
[07:37] <Yagisan> the powerful computer runs all the applications
[07:37] <Burgundavia> salut ajmitch_ 
[07:37] <odie5533> Need a powerful pc running linux for that ;)
[07:37] <Yagisan> the old pcs or thin clients boot off the network and run everything on the server
[07:38] <odie5533> how powerful?
[07:38] <Yagisan> odie5533: not really - how many clients are you looking at ?
[07:38] <odie5533> Well my mom has 4 pc's not used in her class
[07:38] <odie5533> 3 are P2's the last is a P3
[07:38] <Yagisan> odie5533: a p3 is usually good for quite a few systems
[07:38] <odie5533> could a p2 run edubuntu fine though?
[07:39] <Yagisan> odie5533: they do need a good size of ram in the server
[07:39] <odie5533> how old is an "old pc"?
[07:39] <Yagisan> odie5533: depends on the clients, I use p2 300Mhz computers as the "thin client"
[07:40] <Yagisan> odie5533: be back in a moment
[07:40] <odie5533> ok
[08:08] <Yagisan> odie5533: back again - had a potential customer enquiry
[08:08] <odie5533> Ah
[08:08] <odie5533> Are you able to remove all the pieces of edubuntu easily then?
[08:09] <Yagisan> odie5533: testing it now - I have a nice Education and Games menu now
[08:11] <Yagisan> odie5533: hmm - it didn't remove the packages
[08:11] <Yagisan> odie5533: I think that is a bug in synaptic
[08:12] <Yagisan> odie5533: I'll clean up my system, and test again with aptitude
[08:13] <ajmitch_> Yagisan: bug, or a preference?
[08:16] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: I admit I'm not too familiar with synaptic, I usually use aptitude - so I'll doublecheck if it is pebak error
[08:17] <Yagisan> ajmitch_: I did however just use it on default synaptic settings
[08:26] <Yagisan> I think I just reached my download cap - I'm only getting 5k/s downloads :(
[08:27] <odie5533> what is a download cap?
[08:28] <Yagisan> odie5533: It's where your isp meters exactly how much data you can download per month before they reduce your speed
[08:28] <odie5533> They do that?
[08:29] <Yagisan> odie5533: In Australia (and probably New Zealand too) all the isps do it (unless you pay huge amounts of money)
[08:30] <odie5533> Wow. God bless america :)
[08:30] <Yagisan> odie5533: we get charged for traffic too and from the US
[08:31] <Yagisan> odie5533: by US isps :(
[08:31] <odie5533> What?
[08:31] <odie5533> What do you mean
[08:32] <Yagisan> odie5533: a lot of the links to the US are owned by US companies. They charge you to use them
[08:32] <odie5533> You get charged extra every time you talk to the us?
[08:32] <odie5533> what kind of links?
[08:32] <Yagisan> odie5533: the undersea cables
[08:33] <odie5533> hah! the US owns the internet :)
[08:33] <odie5533> Well you can always move to the US you know
[08:34] <odie5533> So is there then an easy way to remove edubuntu?
[08:34] <Yagisan> odie5533: why ? I like my free health care, my free education, my minimum wage, my guarantee of unemployment benefits if needed
[08:35] <Yagisan> odie5533: well, it didn't work as planned in sysnaptic
[08:35] <Yagisan> odie5533: and is going to take a while now my download speed is slowed
[08:35] <Yagisan> odie5533: I easily manually removed the extra files
[08:36] <Yagisan> odie5533: but it is a bit time consuming
[08:36] <odie5533> Ah I think I'll try to get a hold of one of the pc's in my mom's class
[08:36] <odie5533> they're gonna be thrown out if there is no good use for em anyways
[08:36] <odie5533> take up too much space
[08:37] <Yagisan> odie5533: I think you'll find edubuntu is cery suitable for them
[08:37] <Yagisan> odie5533: one thing though
[08:37] <Yagisan> odie5533: the clients NEED at least 64MB of ram
[08:38] <Yagisan> odie5533: the server ideally should have about 32-64MB per user
[08:38] <odie5533> ALL clients if if they don't run with the server setup?
[08:38] <odie5533> what about a no-server setup? how much ram is needed?
[08:39] <Yagisan> odie5533: if you do the workstation install - the clients will need minimum 128MB RAM, prefer 256MB or more
[08:39] <odie5533> well this seems like a useless idea then...
[08:39] <Yagisan> odie5533: how much ram do they have ?
[08:39] <odie5533> they probably have 64mb each tops...
[08:40] <Yagisan> odie5533: 64MB is good for a client - I use that in my clients
[08:40] <odie5533> the p3 might have a 128mb
[08:40] <odie5533> There is no server with a lot of RAM tho...
[08:40] <Yagisan> odie5533: just use the most powerful pc as a server
[08:40] <odie5533> but if it doesn't have enough ram its next to useless...
[08:40] <Yagisan> odie5533: put in as much ram as you can (take excess over 64MB from the clients)
[08:41] <odie5533> is there anyway to distribute all workflow among each pc?
[08:41] <Yagisan> odie5533: It depends on how many clients will use the server at once
[08:41] <odie5533> no no, to have each computer help eachother
[08:42] <Yagisan> odie5533: currently no, possibly in a later release
[08:42] <odie5533> how hard is it to setup LSTP?
[08:42] <Yagisan> odie5533: its part of edubuntu - it is automatically set up on install
[08:43] <Yagisan> odie5533: you do need to know what network card is in the client pc's though
[08:43] <odie5533> How do I tell a server to be a server
[08:43] <odie5533> and a client to be a client
[08:44] <Yagisan> odie5533: do a normal install on the server
[08:44] <Yagisan> odie5533: don't install anything on the clients - they will boot from floppy or cd
[08:44] <Yagisan> simple :)
[08:44] <odie5533> how do I boot them from floppy or cd? what floppy or cd?
[08:44] <odie5533> how do I tell them to run from the server
[08:45] <Yagisan> odie5533: they automatically will run from the server
[08:45] <Yagisan> odie5533: see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuInstallNotes
[08:45] <odie5533> what do you mean automatically
[08:45] <odie5533> no they wont
[08:45] <Yagisan> and http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientsWithoutPxe
[08:45] <odie5533> they'll boot into the half destroyed copy of windows on them
[08:45] <Yagisan> yes they will, if you follow those instructions
[08:46] <Yagisan> trust me - I do it at work all the time
[08:46] <odie5533> But there is no Edubuntu live cd?
[08:46] <Yagisan> odie5533: not yet - ogra is the man to talk to about that - but he sould be on his way to the developer meeting
[08:47] <Yagisan> *should
[08:47] <odie5533> So I do a normal install on the first pc
[08:47] <odie5533> then I just use the tutorial you wrote to boot the others off that pc
[08:47] <Yagisan> odie5533: yes, on the one with the most ram, then follow the tut
[08:48] <Yagisan> :)
[08:48] <odie5533> And I don't need to do ANY configuring on the server pc? Can kids use the server pc along with the clients?
[08:49] <Yagisan> odie5533: you may need to change the ip addresses to fit in with schools ip setup, but in most cases no
[08:50] <odie5533> What is rom-o-matic?
[08:50] <Yagisan> odie5533: kids can use the server pc, but I wouldn't recommend it - if they turn it off, everyone will lose there work
[08:51] <Yagisan> odie5533: ah, the link didn't come up. rom-o-matic is http://www.rom-o-matic.net/
[08:51] <Yagisan> odie5533: it is what makes the clients automatically boot from the server
[08:52] <odie5533> Is there a way to burn a cd of the rom?
[08:52] <odie5533> ^ignore that
[08:52] <Velmont> I tested the LTSP thing yesterday. Worked like a charm :)
[08:53] <odie5533> Is rom-o-matic specific to lstp?
[08:53] <Velmont> Nope. I do not believe so :9
[08:53] <Yagisan> odie5533: not at all
[08:54] <odie5533> What does rom-o-matic do exactly?
[08:54] <Velmont> But the computers I used as clients already had PXE, so I just plugged them in; and; hey; it worked.
[08:54] <Yagisan> odie5533: starts the pc up, and gets it to look on the network for a boot image to continue loading the os
[08:55] <Yagisan> odie5533: think of it as a networked boot floppy
[08:55] <odie5533> How does the school network know which lstp to provide for each computer?
[08:55] <Yagisan> odie5533: each classroom is self-contained in an edubuntu setup
[08:55] <odie5533> So then they can not have internet access?
[08:55] <Yagisan> odie5533: they only start from the one in their classroom
[08:56] <Yagisan> odie5533: the server provides internet access, (it needs two nics)
[08:56] <odie5533> Thats a problem.... =/
[08:56] <Yagisan> odie5533: $5 will buy you a realtek card
[08:57] <odie5533> I dno if it has any standard pci slots
[08:57] <odie5533> I haven't had a look at them yet
[08:57] <Yagisan> odie5533: it it is a normal pc, it will
[08:57] <Yagisan> odie5533: or take a netcard out of a broken pc
[08:57] <odie5533> The pcs I plan to use would be classified at broken pc's =P
[08:58] <odie5533> So clients connect to a hub which connects to the server which connects to the internet?
[08:58] <Velmont> Yep :] 
[08:58] <Yagisan> basically yes
[08:58] <odie5533> Hmm need a hub then
[08:58] <Yagisan> or switch
[08:58] <Yagisan> switch is better
[08:58] <odie5533> which is cheaper?
[08:58] <Velmont> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiring
[08:58] <Yagisan> switches now
[08:59] <odie5533> This seems rather impratical you know. If the thin clients already need 64mb of memory, why not just use them as normal clients?
[08:59] <odie5533> I suppose it would be more practical with a fast server...
[09:00] <odie5533> How much does a server cost?
[09:01] <odie5533> er... you are in australia...
[09:01] <Yagisan> odie5533: take my values and halve them
[09:01] <odie5533> that works
[09:01] <Yagisan> odie5533: I spent about $200 on new parts, and used leftovers to build a server
[09:02] <odie5533> switch is gonna cost $30-50 =/
[09:02] <Yagisan> odie5533: I bought new cpu, more ram, but only because I had to (old machine had electrical fire)
[09:03] <odie5533> whats the difference b/w a hub and a switch?
[09:03] <Yagisan> odie5533: I don't think you could install any modern system into a machine with 64MB of ram or less
[09:03] <odie5533> win98
[09:03] <odie5533> well, win95
[09:04] <Yagisan> odie5533: win98 is not modern, office would need 128MB to run decently
[09:04] <odie5533> not the old office...
[09:04] <odie5533> office 95
[09:05] <Yagisan> odie5533: a hub copys all network traffic out of all ports, a switch is smarter and just sends it to the right pc
[09:05] <Yagisan> odie5533: office 95 has trouble with docs from any office newer then 97
[09:05] <odie5533> save as rtf?
[09:06] <odie5533> Why does Edubuntu need so much RAM?
[09:07] <odie5533> I thought linux was a low ram kind of os..
[09:07] <Yagisan> odie5533: because it doesn't use a hard disk in the clients
[09:07] <odie5533> If it did
[09:08] <Yagisan> odie5533: It keeps a copy of itself on the clients to show what is happening on the server
[09:08] <Yagisan> odie5533: the kernel itself only uses 12MB
[09:08] <odie5533> then what else is there that uses so much that it wouldn't run well on a 32mb pc?
[09:08] <Yagisan> odie5533: the rest is needed to monitor the keyboard, mouse, network
[09:09] <Yagisan> odie5533: actually show a display
[09:09] <odie5533> how much ram does a monitor a mouse a keyboard and a nic card use?
[09:09] <Yagisan> odie5533: considering it uses x.org, it was about 40MB when I measured it
[09:10] <Yagisan> odie5533: Windows based thin clients need 256MB
[09:10] <odie5533> Is there anything more lightweight that x.org?
[09:10] <odie5533> Windows based PC's don't need more than 64-128mb though
[09:10] <Yagisan> odie5533: if you go for a manual ltsp setup, you can do it in 32mb
[09:11] <Yagisan> odie5533: ANY modern (ie suppurted by MS Windows) need 256MB to boot without wearing out your disks
[09:11] <odie5533> the un-modern os's (95/98) don't need that much though
[09:11] <Yagisan> odie5533: although it would be good to reduce client memory useage
[09:11] <odie5533> What exactly is Edubuntu designed to be run on?
[09:12] <Yagisan> odie5533: 95/98 have more holes then swiss cheese
[09:12] <Yagisan> odie5533: Edubunti is designed to run on older pcs (think p1 or better) as a client
[09:12] <odie5533> Meh, If the pc gets hacked the only thing the hacker will get is a couple of 4th grade book reports
[09:12] <Yagisan> odie5533: and another zombie box
[09:13] <Yagisan> odie5533: that relays spam everywhere
[09:13] <odie5533> older pcs as clients, and a lightning fast server to handle it...
[09:13] <Yagisan> odie5533: well, not lightning fast, most people are using p3 servers
[09:13] <odie5533> With how much ram?
[09:14] <Yagisan> odie5533: most seem to be at 384-512 on the servers (with 15-30 clients or more)
[09:15] <Yagisan> odie5533: at MB per client, that's quite low
[09:15] <odie5533> And what on the clients then?
[09:15] <odie5533> 64mb, a nic card and a p1?
[09:15] <odie5533> or p2?
[09:16] <Yagisan> odie5533: I don't know, my clients are 1x p2 300Mhz 64MB RAM, 1x p2 233Mhz, 64MB RAM,  1x k6/2 300Mhz, 320MB RAM
[09:17] <odie5533> Is Edubuntu meant mainly for this LSTP method?
[09:17] <Yagisan> odie5533: if you only have a few boxes, and won't add more, just do a workstation install
[09:17] <Yagisan> odie5533: for medium/large scale, I think so
[09:17] <odie5533> workstation install on each?
[09:18] <Yagisan> odie5533: small scale, I'd do a workstation install on each client (if there will be say less the 5 clients)
[09:19] <odie5533> The LSTP method, can the clients each have personal settings?
[09:19] <Yagisan> odie5533: yes
[09:19] <odie5533> Can they store files on the server? Can they use their own hard drive?
[09:19] <Yagisan> odie5533: all on the server
[09:20] <Yagisan> odie5533: to give an idea of how different the settings can be, my translators desktop is completely in Japanese
[09:20] <Yagisan> odie5533: while mine is English
[09:20] <Yagisan> odie5533: we use the same server
[09:20] <odie5533> lol and it can all be stored on the server?
[09:20] <Velmont> Its very cool actually... You switch pcs and they always look the same :) Have your own roaming account ;)
[09:20] <odie5533> Can someone use the server though? or is it really strictly a server?
[09:21] <Velmont> odie5533: You can use it...
[09:21] <Yagisan> odie5533: I'm using my server right now
[09:21] <odie5533> IE could my mom use the p3 as a server and like... show the kids how to do something? Or setup a test and start it for them all from the server?
[09:21] <Yagisan> odie5533: as in logged in and typing to you from it
[09:21] <odie5533> ^easily I mean to say
[09:22] <Yagisan> odie5533: I think so, but you'll need to confirm that with ogra
[09:22] <odie5533> How many people use Edubuntu?
[09:24] <Yagisan> odie5533: quite a few that I'm aware of
[09:24] <odie5533> in schools?
[09:25] <Yagisan> odie5533: I believe that some of the south americans are using it, there is also a production deployment in some US schools
[09:25] <Yagisan> odie5533: ogra is in contact with them
[09:25] <odie5533> what do you mean production deployment?
[09:26] <Yagisan> odie5533: It was built, tested, and now the kids are using it everyday
[09:26] <odie5533> If Edubuntu is partially meant for this LSTP thing, then why isn't all the Rom-o-matic stuff included in the Edubuntu cd?
[09:26] <odie5533> kids in south america, but where in US?
[09:26] <odie5533> on the site it looked like there were 2 schools in the world using it...
[09:26] <Yagisan> odie5533: newer network cards don't need rom-o-matic, and the website has a newer version
[09:27] <Yagisan> odie5533: and there is no more room left on the cd
[09:27] <odie5533> hmm
[09:27] <odie5533> should have it in the repos or somethng then
[09:27] <odie5533> seems like a big thing
[09:28] <Yagisan> odie5533: newer cards use PXE
[09:28] <odie5533> how can you tell if you have a PXE card?
[09:28] <odie5533> (and what is PXE)
[09:28] <Yagisan> odie5533: it gives you a boot from network prompt when you turn on the pc
[09:29] <odie5533> one of your pc's is the same card as my home pc ;)
[09:29] <odie5533> Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+ (rev 10)
[09:29] <Yagisan> odie5533: It's effectively a built-in networked boot floppy
[09:29] <Yagisan> odie5533: It is the cheapest and most popular (I have like 6 of them around)
[09:30] <odie5533> what do I download for romomatic then?
[09:31] <Yagisan> first, find out what cards are in the client pcs, then follow the howto http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientsWithoutPxe
[09:31] <Yagisan> I fixed the link for you
[09:31] <odie5533> ah thankyou
[09:31] <odie5533> when downloading it, there are like 5 rtl8139:*'s
[09:31] <odie5533> how do I know which is right?
[09:32] <Yagisan> the star means any one will do
[09:32] <Yagisan> as long as it starts with rtl8139, it will work
[09:32] <odie5533> family	drivers/net/rtl8139
[09:32] <odie5533> rtl8129	0x10ec,0x8129	Realtek 8129
[09:32] <odie5533> rtl8139	0x10ec,0x8139	Realtek 8139
[09:32] <odie5533> erm... 3 line paste
[09:33] <odie5533> I am using the RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+
[09:33] <odie5533> oh I get the rtl8139:rtl8139?
[09:34] <Yagisan> odie5533: yep
[09:34] <odie5533> ah, confusing with the same name and all =P
[09:34] <Yagisan> odie5533: any of the rtl8139 will work
[09:34] <odie5533> What is legacy floppy?
[09:35] <Yagisan> odie5533: old pc's have to think a boot cd is a boot floppy to start
[09:36] <odie5533> Make sure PXELOADER_KEEP_ALL is ticked, and it is a good idea to also tick POWERSAVE, ALLMULTI, MULTICAST_LEVEL1, MULTICAST_LEVEL2, and DOWNLOAD_PROTO_TFTM
[09:36] <odie5533> There are a lot of steps to get the floppy disk ;)
[09:37] <Yagisan> odie5533: future compatibility, and if it can't boot for whatever reason, try not to run up the electric bill :)
[09:38] <Yagisan> PXELOADER_KEEP_ALL is the essential one
[09:38] <odie5533> There are lots of options in the customize
[09:39] <odie5533> I don't see any non-computer savvy person able to go thru all this to install a client server setup in their classroom
[09:39] <odie5533> My mother is probably the most computer literate in her whole school, and theres no chance she could ever setup a client server setup in her lifetime
[09:39] <Yagisan> odie5533: that's why I wrote the howto (and part of the reason rom-o-matic isn't on the cd)
[09:40] <odie5533> the not having rom o matic on the cd makes it harder
[09:40] <odie5533> you'd have to find the howto
[09:40] <odie5533> then find rom o matic
[09:41] <Yagisan> odie5533: the hard part is figuring out what network card you have
[09:41] <Yagisan> odie5533: with newer machines the use PXE it doesn't matter
[09:41] <odie5533> then open up a command line, do a live cd on each pc to find the right nic, then go through the list, theres no search for the family name so you'd have to know enough about a browser to hit ctrl f (most people don't). then go through the customize. The ctrl f thing comes into play again. Then finally go back into a command line and make the floppy. Possibly then configure a bios to boot from the floppy or the cd.
[09:42] <Yagisan> odie5533: it works right out of the box
[09:42] <Yagisan> odie5533: livecds don't always boot on low memory/very old systems
[09:43] <odie5533> I don't see any non-computer-savvy person being able to setup edubuntu unless there was some better doc's on the install/setup process
[09:43] <Yagisan> odie5533: with some more recent hardware, it is literally install server and turn on client
[09:43] <Yagisan> but it is mostly intel network cards that have PXE
[09:44] <odie5533> Install server is harder than it sounds too
[09:44] <odie5533> For instance: Asked what a bios was my mom would answer it probably has something to do with a pc. Theres no chance she'd know how to get to it, let alone correctly configure it.
[09:44] <Yagisan> server doesn't care about the bios
[09:44] <odie5533> It does to install the server
[09:44] <Velmont> I didnt have to configure anything on the client... :)
[09:44] <odie5533> and you can't well have a server without installing one
[09:45] <odie5533> Velmont: but you still had to either go into the bios to boot from the edubuntu cd or at least know it was able to boot from the cd to install the server in the first place
[09:46] <Yagisan> odie5533: you make a good argument for reading the manual that comes with the pc
[09:46] <Velmont> I just put the CD in the server and started it :)
[09:46] <odie5533> Yagisan: when using 8 year old computers that the manual has well gone and perished from it is quite hard to find the manual
[09:46] <Yagisan> odie5533: newer (1999 onwards) generally boot from the cd without any configuration
[09:47] <Velmont> Anyway, a server is to be set up by someone who knows just a bit of computers :) Once it is it up, it works for anyone.
[09:47] <odie5533> Too many manuals to read is the point
[09:47] <odie5533> I doubt there are any cases of a non computer-savvy person having an installation of edubuntu
[09:47] <Yagisan> odie5533: Would you say the same thing about installing a child safety seat in a car ?
[09:48] <odie5533> There a large difference between a legally required installation and a computer installation
[09:48] <Yagisan> odie5533: not really, if you don't read the manual, it's not going to work right
[09:49] <Yagisan> odie5533: that said, if the manual is wrong, tell us so we can fix it
[09:50] <odie5533> A good example: A family that I am friends with recently bought a PC from Dell. It comes with easy picture perfect manuals on how to set it up and a 24/7 tech support on how to set it up. They asked me to hook it up. You know why? Becasue they still aren't computer savvy enough to set it up even with a guy walking them through it and color coded cords and full color pictured instruction manuals
[09:53] <Yagisan> odie5533: what can I say ? I know people like that, and I know people that had no trouble following the instructions
[09:54] <Yagisan> odie5533: It eventually comes down to the persons confidence in themselves
[09:54] <odie5533> At the school my mom works at, they are getting roughly 10 new pc's for the whole school. There are two tech guys for the whole district who come around once every 6 months to fix things (and they are both idiots). My mom was able to set hers up reading the instruction manual. She also set up the principle's for him and the secrataries. The rest of the pcs are still in their boxes because no one knows how to set them up. New, ex
[09:54] <odie5533> pensive pcs (p4's with flatscreens and wireless mice and keyboard, photo printers etc). My mom could set up a pc (plug it in with the color coded cords and such) but I don't see her being able to ever install kubuntu or configure a bios correctly.
[09:55] <odie5533> *edubuntu
[09:55] <Yagisan> odie5533: p4s won't need to have the bios configured, in fact most pcs from 1999 on don't need it configured
[09:56] <odie5533> My mom still couldn't download a cd and burn it anyways, so it won't help that the bios is already idiot proofed
[09:56] <odie5533> Best example: when trying to download firefox my mom accidently downloaded thunderbird and asked my why she couldn't browse the internet with it
[09:57] <Velmont> Well. Why SHOULD she install Edubuntu?
[09:57] <odie5533> SHE won't. I might
[09:57] <Velmont> I don't see the problem that you actually need to know a bit in order to set it up. 
[09:57] <Velmont> Don't need to know much though, as it is very easy.
[09:58] <odie5533> You don't need know a bit. You need to know a LOT
[09:58] <odie5533> easy for someone who knows how
[09:58] <Yagisan> odie5533: You had to learn Windows once,
[09:58] <odie5533> nah, learned dos first
[09:58] <odie5533> windows came easy to me ;)
[09:58] <Velmont> Linux came easy to me.
[09:58] <Yagisan> odie5533: doesn't matter, now you are learning something new
[09:58] <odie5533> I also had 24/7 tech support from my dad
[09:59] <Yagisan> odie5533: remember when you first installed windows
[09:59] <jeffbuntu> Hi
[09:59] <odie5533> (dad installed it for me, im a bad example really)
[09:59] <Yagisan> odie5533: did the cd boot ? Did you need to make floppys
[10:00] <odie5533> again the bad example thing
[10:00] <Yagisan> odie5533: ah, well, the point is, the first time you do it, it isn't so easy
[10:00] <odie5533> It is if someone is sittting there helping you do it.
[10:00] <Yagisan> odie5533: after doing it 2-3 times, it isn't such a deal anymore
[10:00] <odie5533> And thats what would be needed as it stands to get Edubuntu installed on a pc as I see it
[10:01] <Yagisan> odie5533: have you installed ubuntu/kubuntu ?
[10:01] <odie5533> im talking to you in xchat from my Ubuntu install
[10:01] <Yagisan> odie5533: have any trouble installing it ?
[10:02] <odie5533> loads
[10:02] <odie5533> I gave up a few times too
[10:02] <odie5533> urg brb
[10:03] <odie5533> back
[10:03] <odie5533> ive been on and off windows for the past week about
[10:03] <odie5533> trying to decide which is better
[10:04] <Yagisan> odie5533: what were issues you had on install ?
[10:04] <odie5533> First bad media
[10:04] <odie5533> then bad cd burning speed
[10:04] <odie5533> Then I couldnt get fakeroot to work when installing sun java, turns out i dled the x86 not the amd64 java
[10:04] <odie5533> Then I found out theres no good flash player for amd64
[10:05] <odie5533> then found out w32 codecs didn't work
[10:05] <odie5533> then got on x86 install
[10:05] <Yagisan> odie5533: so you discovered that non-ubuntu supplied third party software doesn't work on amd64
[10:05] <odie5533> lots of things worked, then, I was in #ubuntu yesterday talking to bob2 after he told me my ubuntu put my filesystem in read only mode because it was about to explode...
[10:06] <odie5533> third party software! thats it! the basic requirements (for me) of any OS, third party software
[10:06] <odie5533> if all software was first party, why, microsoft would be even richer! ;)
[10:06] <Yagisan> odie5533: you are too used to windows way of thinking
[10:06] <Velmont> Tss. I don't need third party software...
[10:07] <odie5533> yes windows way of thinking: things working...
[10:07] <odie5533> Windows: It just works
[10:07] <Yagisan> odie5533: no, that's things not working
[10:07] <Velmont> Hmm. Ahwell, I use aMSN CVS. But aMSN 0.94 is included from Ubuntu, so.
[10:08] <odie5533> Meh I hear about loads of crap for Windows, but truely it works great. its the #1 os in the world, how bad could it be?
[10:08] <Velmont> Hahaha. I work with Windows here at school, -- you can't use just works as a pro with windows! That's much more related to Ubuntu Linux :)
[10:08] <Yagisan> odie5533: Have you truly tried to use Windows in a corporate environment ?
[10:08] <odie5533> Ubuntu is based on compiling loads of THIRD PAR\
[10:08] <odie5533> PARTY software into an OS
[10:09] <odie5533> Yagisan, I've never been in a corporate environment my whole life (all 15 years of it)
[10:09] <odie5533> so I honestly can say, no
[10:09] <Velmont> Ubuntu works better out of the box than Windows... -- Why Windows works "better" is just because you know Windows and have loads of exprience...
[10:09] <Velmont> odie5533: Well, it sucks.
[10:09] <Yagisan> Velmont: that's too polite
[10:09] <odie5533> Windows comes packaged with PC's It LITERALLY works right out of the box
[10:10] <odie5533> I mean literally, you open the box and it works
[10:10] <Yagisan> odie5533: Utill you upgrade and find that your modem and sound card now don't work as there are no drivers for Windows foo
[10:10] <Velmont> odie5533: Not with my pc... Not with the pcs we install here...
[10:10] <Yagisan> odie5533: I used to be the guy that put Windows on those pc's before we put them in the box
[10:11] <Velmont> odie5533: And anyway, its incredible easy to do the same with Ubuntu... Just have to buy from a supplier that does it.
[10:11] <odie5533> And you can even hire people like me to come and install your palm software because you're too stupid to pop in the cd and click install next next finish yourself, so you never need to know anything about a pc to use it on windows
[10:11] <jeffbuntu> can'i interrupt this troll ?
[10:11] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: what's up
[10:11] <odie5533> I feel like that was aimed at me...
[10:11] <jeffbuntu> i want write in the wiki page, but i don't know how
[10:12] <odie5533> jeffbuntu, is that troll comment aimed at me?
[10:12] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: mhz is the wiki guru
[10:12] <odie5533> Yagisan, jeffbuntu, Velmont, if you guys dont want me here just say the word and I'll never come here again.
[10:13] <jeffbuntu> the troll is the eternal "comparaison" between windows and linux
[10:13] <odie5533> I don't personally see it as a troll, more of an endless discussion
[10:14] <jeffbuntu> if you want
[10:14] <odie5533> I don't want it one way or the other personally, I don't really have much of an opinion on it
[10:14] <Yagisan> odie5533: As long as we are all clear that Ubuntu IS NOT Windows, its a very different system
[10:15] <Yagisan> odie5533: I think you should try installing edubuntu
[10:15] <Yagisan> odie5533: If you have any issues, we are here to help
[10:15] <odie5533> I'm not gonna bother if the pc's won't run it.
[10:15] <odie5533> You can't help me with a subpar minimum spec requirement...
[10:15] <Yagisan> odie5533: you won't know if you don't try
[10:16] <odie5533> Can't try for... hmm roughly 12 hours
[10:16] <Yagisan> odie5533: please don't piss on my help
[10:16] <odie5533> Yagisan: not at all
[10:16] <odie5533> you've been the main help here at this hour and I thankyou for that
[10:17] <odie5533> I am going to attempt to setup either a bunch of workstations or a client server with the p3's and the p2's
[10:18] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: what page do you want to edit
[10:18] <odie5533> I think I'm going to get a few hours of sleep before the morning. Good night
[10:18] <jeffbuntu> about boot without pxe card
[10:18] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: my page ?
[10:18] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: what do you want added ?
[10:19] <jeffbuntu> actually http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientWithoutPxe doesn't exist
[10:20] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: it's missing an s Between Client and Without
[10:21] <jeffbuntu> i copy the link, then the link it bad
[10:22] <Yagisan> where is the bad link ?
[10:22] <jeffbuntu> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation
[10:24] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: thanks jeff, fixed the link
[10:24] <Yagisan> bye all, be back later
[10:25] <jeffbuntu> i want add howto boot with the HD (not with a floppy)
[10:27] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: I discussed that with ogra (I use it too), he said not to add it until people want it
[10:27] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: as it is a little bit involved
[10:27] <jeffbuntu> ogra they to me to do it
[10:27] <jeffbuntu> said
[10:27] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: he did ?
[10:28] <jeffbuntu> there is 2 days ago
[10:28] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: have you got it written up ?
[10:29] <jeffbuntu> i don't understand well ?
[10:29] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: do you have a draft you can send me ? I'll add it
[10:30] <jeffbuntu> yes i can do this
[10:30] <jeffbuntu> what's email ?
[10:31] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: you can dcc it, if not then jamie_jones_au@yahoo.com.au
[10:33] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: can you tell me if this page loads http://eyagi.bpa.nu/~jamie/doomsday.html
[10:34] <jeffbuntu> Yagisan : it's seem that it's not good
[10:34] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: bad link ?
[10:36] <jeffbuntu> the site eyagi.bpa.nu reply
[10:38] <jeffbuntu> no reply of ~jamie
[10:39] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: could you please try again. I just adjusted the firewall
[10:39] <jeffbuntu> good
[10:40] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: thank you
[10:41] <jeffbuntu> Yagisan : it's you  Jamie ?
[10:42] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: Yes
[10:44] <jeffbuntu> ok, i've to write because for the moment i've only my papers note, and i mailto you
[10:45] <jeffbuntu> bye, all
[10:45] <Yagisan> jeffbuntu: thanks
[10:45] <Yagisan> be back a bit later
[12:46] <Tode> h ithere
[12:46] <Tode> anyone knows where i can find information about the "popularity" of Linux in schools?
[12:47] <Tode> for example x% of schools in England use Linux, etc
[12:53] <wsl_> if it helps, I am intending to install edububtu on 8 classroom machines (in the UK)
[12:53] <wsl_> otherwise the answer (I suspect) is minimal%
[12:59] <Tode> thanks wsl_
[12:59] <Tode> and good luck with your installation...! :o)
[01:00] <wsl_> thanks, hopefully I wont need it :)
[01:01] <Tode> what do yo umean??
[01:08] <Velmont> Hihi, it's nice and easy Tode ;)
[01:08] <Velmont> Just works (tm) (at least here ;);))
[01:08] <Tode> hi Velmont! what's up?
[01:08] <Tode> :o)
[01:10] <Velmont> Tode: Lo`. I'm using Archie on a stupid 300PL IBM-machine that won't work. I can't ghost Win98 onto it... Just have to check the HD really is working ;] 
[01:11] <Velmont> Archie is an Arch live cd.
[01:11] <Velmont> ArchLinux*
[01:11] <Tode>  idon't know the Archie stuff
[01:11] <Tode> it seems to be a pain in the neck...
[01:14] <Velmont> Nope. It is good :]  I use Arch Linux at home, and needed a good live cd. SystemRescueCD didn't work...
[01:14] <Velmont> Huuummm. The disk is only 1 GB... Better find a new one, although it's supposed to be 6gb.
[01:25] <Tode> 1 Gb?? it's not enough...
[01:25] <Tode> so u think it's a good stuff, ArchLinux?
[01:26] <Tode> is it a distribution?
[01:33] <spacey> i'm deploying edubuntu in a few dutch schools
[01:33] <Velmont> Tode: It is, yes. :) 
[01:40] <Tode> spacey -->do you know if Linux is popular in dutch schools?
[01:40] <Tode> Velmont --> wow I've just red some stuff about Arch Linux... it is for hardcore users!! ;o)
[01:42] <spacey> Tode, there are a lot of initiatives
[01:42] <spacey> also from the government
[01:43] <spacey> but i think atm it is just at the beginning, but the developments are really exciting, and i think it will speed up in the coming years
[01:43] <Tode> :o)
[01:44] <Tode> yeah it's really exciting!
[01:46] <Velmont> Hihi. It's so nice to be so early, - started with GNU/Linux with SuSE 5 :) Things have really changed from that time. :] 
[01:47] <Tode> wow! I understand why you like Arch Linux.. ;o)
[01:47] <jsgotangco> hello
[01:48] <Velmont> I use Ubuntu on my laptop though :]  Really like it, - but I prefer Arch on my main machine, the extreme KISS-philosophy just makes everything so clean and stable.
[01:50] <Tode> KISS-what?
[01:53] <Velmont> Keep It Simple Stupid :)
[01:54] <Velmont> No automatic GUI-wizards and "smart" systems etc.
[01:54] <Velmont> You do the configuration yourself in flatfiles. pacman, the packagemanager is just a breeze. :)
[01:55] <Velmont> I prefer it any day over apt-get and dpkg.
[01:57] <Tode> wow... impressive
[01:57] <Tode> KISS <-- ;o)
[02:58] <jsgotangco> arch is really nice i have it in one laptop too (ibm r50e)
[02:58] <zakame> hi all! :D
[03:01] <Yagisan> G'day all
[03:14] <Tode> jsgotangco --> arch is for advanced users, isn't it?
[03:14] <jsgotangco> not really
[03:15] <jsgotangco> let's say its a gentler slackware :)
[03:15] <Tode> ;o)
[03:15] <Tode> oki doki
[03:40] <Yagisan> anyone here dual boot with windows ?
[03:41] <pirast> yes.. I have dual boot ;-) But with Ubuntu :-)
[03:41] <zakame> Yagisan: here, why?
[03:41] <Yagisan> panyone who does, could you paste a dmesg | hrep hd
[03:41] <Yagisan> s/panyone/anyone
[03:42] <Yagisan> I need it for a howto
[03:42] <Yagisan> and I don't have a windows box
[03:42] <Yagisan> s/hrep/grep
[03:42] <Yagisan> brb
[03:44] <pirast> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/3653
[03:44] <pirast> Note that I enabled DMA for my DVD device !
[03:52] <Yagisan> pirast: thanks
[03:59] <Yagisan> pirast: ubuntu doesn't detect fat or ntfs partitions ?
[04:01] <pirast> no...
[04:01] <pirast> i can mount them via "Disks"
[04:01] <pirast> But Ubuntu didn't autodetect my fat an ntfs partitions :-/
[04:02] <pirast> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/3654
[04:02] <pirast> fdisk output
[04:02] <Yagisan> pirast: ok - just wanted to make sure - I'm identifying the partitions to delete so edubuntu clients can boot from hard disk
[04:03] <Yagisan> pirast: thanks - I was just about to ask for that too
[04:03] <pirast> okay :-)
[04:08] <pirast> btw.
[04:08] <pirast> http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510
[04:08] <pirast> it says
[04:08] <pirast> Automatically makes existing hard drive partitions available      to the desktop
[04:09] <pirast> Maybe I should enter a bug.. Because I made a fresh Ubuntu 5.10 install..
[04:16] <Yagisan> pirast: hmm, but it shows up under disks
[04:16] <jjtechno> The "breezy" version, even when I boot from 'workstation' is just too big for an old 2.0gigs machine, any suggestions that would let me give this machine to a kindergarten class? Thanks
[04:18] <pirast> Yagisan: Yes.. But in "Disks" I have to mount it.. I just asked in #ubuntu-bugs.. There someone said that this is normal and Ubuntu Breezy does not mount fat32 and ntfs partitions. But the LiveCD does noticed someone there.
[04:18] <pirast> But the LiveCD does someone noticed there.
[04:18] <pirast> sorry ;-)
[04:19] <jeffubuntu> Yagisan: had you some time to watch my draft 
[04:20] <jjtechno> oops sorry I shouldn't have burst right in, I will just look for a while in the future
[04:21] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: editing it now on the wiki
[04:21] <Yagisan> pirast: thanks
[04:22] <Yagisan> jjtechno: sorry - I'm a bit busy atm, I or someone else will get to you in a moment
[04:22] <jjtechno> thanks much
[04:23] <jeffubuntu> jjtechno: can i help you ?
[04:24] <jjtechno> thanks , I hope so
[04:24] <jjtechno> I have a older stand alone machine2 gig total space
[04:25] <jeffubuntu> i see the post and i think 2 GHZ :)
[04:25] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientsWithoutPxe
[04:26] <Yagisan> jjtechno: ah - ok. Did you want to use it as a server ?
[04:26] <jjtechno> no not as a server but as a workstation, I will check the wiki futher, though
[04:28] <Yagisan> jjtechno: the good news is clients don't need a hard disk
[04:28] <Yagisan> jjtechno: that disk could probably be taken out and installed into the edubuntu server machine
[04:29] <jjtechno> the only machine in the class, the teacher was very excited about EDubuntu, so I am trying to make it happen for the class. No more resources for computers this year, next maybe for network thin clients
[04:29] <Yagisan> jjtechno: oh you meant "worksation" install
[04:30] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: comments ?
[04:30] <jjtechno> I was trying to do the minimum install without getting the warning about not enough space
[04:31] <Yagisan> jjtechno: 2GB is a bit tight, is it possible to get a bigger/second disk ?
[04:32] <Yagisan> jjtechno: based on the age of the machine, I don't recommend not creating a swap partition to get more disk space
[04:32] <jjtechno> sorry, I am trying but the bones have been picked over by the rest of the school.
[04:33] <jjtechno> can you reccomend a manual partition that might work?
[04:33] <Yagisan> anyone have any ideas for a low-fat edubuntu that can install in less then 2GB drive ?
[04:33] <amarock> hi all:)
[04:33] <jeffubuntu> Yasigan: i look the wiki, it's look great ;)
[04:34] <Yagisan> jjtechno: The issue is that all the educational apps are taking up a lot of that 2GB space
[04:34] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: thanks :)
[04:35] <Yagisan> jjtechno: we could remove them, but that defeats the point :(
[04:35] <Yagisan> G'day amarock
[04:35] <amarock> hey are there edubuntu developers here too! 
[04:35] <amarock> :)
[04:36] <Yagisan> amarock: developers are on their way to the developer convention
[04:36] <jeffubuntu> jjtechno: may be an "server" install + manual apt-get install an small X programs
[04:36] <jjtechno> she wants the edu apps. I don't think picking and chooseing would serve her any better
[04:37] <jjtechno> haen't thought of that jeffubuntu
[04:38] <jjtechno> will the fluxbox gui run the Gcomfris apps for kindergardeners
[04:39] <jjtechno> 5 and 6 yearolds
[04:39] <jeffubuntu> it's seem to be possible with 2 Go
[04:40] <Yagisan> jjtechno: should, most likely grab the needed gnome support libraries. icewm is also nice
[04:40] <jjtechno> I will try it, thanks for the help icewm or excm4?
[04:40] <jjtechno> istead of fluxbox
[04:41] <Yagisan> jjtechno: OOo is also space hog
[04:41] <jeffubuntu> or Xfce
[04:41] <jjtechno>  will try it and let you know
[04:42] <Yagisan> jjtechno. thanks - if it goes well, add it to the wiki
[04:42] <jjtechno> ok 
[04:44] <jeffubuntu> all: what is for you the best tool to resize an partition ?
[04:45] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: try gparted, myself I backup the data, then delete and recreate the partition
[04:47] <jeffubuntu> i search a small tool to use on the old client (for then end of boot without pxe)
[04:47] <jeffubuntu> if the hd is full
[04:49] <jeffubuntu> i remember "fips" but it's may be "risky"
[04:49] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: if the old pc runs dos, we can get it to boot edubuntu from dos
[04:50] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: should also work with Win95 and Win98
[04:50] <jeffubuntu> with loadlin
[04:50] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: but not WinMe, or the WinNT/2K/XP/2K3 systems
[04:50] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: rom-o-matic also makes dos .com files
[04:51] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: just put it in autoexec.bat
[04:51] <jeffubuntu> does it do the "coffee" ? ;)
[04:52] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: It probably will soon
[04:52] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: I have done the bios mod method a few times - that is sweet when it works, and expensive when it doesn't
[04:53] <jeffubuntu> bios mod ? include rom boot into bios ?
[04:54] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: exactly
[04:54] <Yagisan> hey, its 1am
[04:54] <Yagisan> happy birthday to me :) 
[04:55] <jeffubuntu> happy birthday to you, big applause
[04:55] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: thank you
[04:56] <jeffubuntu> it's very late in your place, only 5 pm here in france
[04:57] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: I'm in Sydney, Australia
[05:00] <jeffubuntu> Yagisan: have you find an model to mod your bios, or all with your brain ?
[05:04] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: I spent most of my time working it out by myself
[05:04] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: I've tried it with several machines, ami and award bioses
[05:05] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: award was easier, but finding tools was hard
[05:05] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: and I permanently broke 1 motherboard doing it
[05:06] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: basic gist is download a copy of your bios from your pc
[05:06] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: insert etherboot image for the exact nic you have
[05:06] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: reflash bios
[05:06] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: hope your pc starts again
[05:07] <jeffubuntu> of course
[05:07] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: prepare to ebay broken bits
[05:07] <Yagisan> :)
[05:07] <jeffubuntu> you add an entry in the menu ?
[05:07] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: with a bios mod, it will boot over the network if it can't boot from floppy, cd, or hard disk first
[05:07] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: no menu entry
[05:08] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: sometimes you need to delete parts of the bios to make it fit
[05:08] <jeffubuntu> very "impressive"
[05:09] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: so I thought until I broke a machine
[05:09] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: it works better with newer machines
[05:09] <jeffubuntu> but newer have pxe;)
[05:09] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: such as gigabyte motherboards with dual bios
[05:09] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: not all :(
[05:10] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: but it was a fun experiment
[05:10] <jeffubuntu> i think i test that after i learn a lot on the theme
[05:13] <jeffubuntu> thanks for the idea, and c you, good night
[05:14] <Yagisan> jeffubuntu: good night. before testing that idea, make sure you can afford to lose the pc
[05:15] <jeffubuntu> Yes, i've note this small 'detail'
[05:15] <jeffubuntu> or border effect
[05:15] <jeffubuntu> bye
[05:22] <mhz> hi there
[05:23] <jindro> hi, first time here
[05:23] <mhz> jindro: welcome then
[05:24] <jindro> is edubuntu for children or students?
[05:24] <mhz> edubuntu is a distro oriented to satisfy schools needs
[05:25] <mhz> basically, it is a set of IT tools and applications for Teachers to help and motivate students learning
[05:25] <highvoltage> jindro: i would say the first release are suitable for young students and children alike, but it is meant for educational institutions
[05:25] <mhz> you can use it for kindergarden or secondary schools
[05:25] <highvoltage> future versions will be more apt for high school, and eventually, even university.
[05:26] <mhz> highvoltage: indeed
[05:26] <highvoltage> mhz: cool! (about the demo)
[05:26] <mhz> thx
[05:26] <jindro> looks like a great idea, I ll look at it tommororow, after azareus does the job
[05:26] <mhz> highvoltage: though i am very nervous 'cos I know zero about math teaching
[05:27] <mhz> highvoltage: though i am very nervous 'cos I know zero about math teaching and i am very ignorant on how to use math tools properly
[05:27] <highvoltage> i don't know much about teaching or maths :(
[05:28] <jindro> we need smth  easy and colourfull for the kids. I know the Ubuntu community and it works perfectly
[05:28] <weasl7> make sure you prepare and practise well before going in
[05:29] <jindro> math is the best game in science, it could be easy game for children
[05:29] <mhz> weasl7: that's my point, so today at 16, an engeneer friend of mine will help me prepare the demo.
[05:29] <jindro> with a proper tooleven more interesting
[05:29] <mhz> jindro: then you'll love edubuntu selection
[05:30] <weasl7> good, reckon on spending 2-3 times as long preparing as you will take to deliver the 'class'/demo
[05:30] <jindro> I am looking forward, bye all
[05:31] <mhz> weasl7: highvoltage: the thing is that for tomorrow, I'll need to show diff apps. (chemestry, Language, Math, Astronomy)
[05:31] <weasl7> not much sleep then ... ;)
[05:31] <mhz> lol
[05:32] <mhz> I look forward to wiki the presentations ASAP (once i finish them, thou) so communtiy can quickly improve them and so we all get better demos
[05:32] <mhz> wiki = wikiing
[05:34] <mhz> highvoltage: did you read my comments yesterday about net traffic being THE bottleneck?
[05:38] <highvoltage> not yet...
[05:38] <highvoltage> today is the first day in more than a month that i have internet at home
[05:38] <highvoltage> so i have a bit of catching up to do.
[05:38] <highvoltage> but on a thin client network, the network is generally *the* bottleneck.
[05:38] <highvoltage> we have two schools where we added another gigabit ethernet adapter, and bridged the two adaptors, and performance were much better since then.
[05:42] <mhz> highvoltage: any chance you could provide a more detailed description of your edubuntu testings/current use? (net layout, average clients hw, server hw summary, application performances, etc)?
[05:43] <mhz> .o( still not a real case scenario)
[05:43] <jsgotangco> try the original cookbook
[05:43] <jsgotangco> its more tuxlabs oriented
[05:44] <highvoltage> mhz: in tuxlabs, we use ubuntu + ltsp.org
[05:44] <mhz> jsgotangco: hmm, i guess the original cookbook is on the wiki page?
[05:44] <highvoltage> mhz: we'll convert all the tuxlabs to edubuntu toward the end of next year
[05:44] <mhz> ohhh
[05:44] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: whoa will the tuxlabs project get replaced?
[05:45] <highvoltage> nope.
[05:45] <highvoltage> replaced with what? :)
[05:45] <mhz> highvoltage: in terms of ltsp basis, how diff if tuxlabs ltsp from edubuntu ltsp (%?)
[05:45] <highvoltage> not sure i'm understanding your question.
[05:45] <mhz> highvoltage: me?
[05:46] <mhz> sorry, mine?
[05:46] <highvoltage> mhz: tuxlabs currently uses ltsp.org, which is also used in k12ltsp. it's older, and lots of work to maintain. it's a bit more robust though, imo, but it is less secure.
[05:46] <highvoltage> mhz: no, jsgotangco 
[05:46] <mhz> oh, ok.
[05:46] <mhz> oh, ok.
[05:47] <highvoltage> mhz: ubuntu's ltsp is much better, it's ltsp environment is created like a real ubuntu environment, using apt.
[05:47] <mhz> indeed
[05:47] <highvoltage> mhz: ubuntu's ltsp will ultimately be better than the ltsp.org ltsp, just because of it's design.
[05:47] <highvoltage> although, more things currently work in ltsp.org, such as sound.
[05:47] <highvoltage> and it has some limited local device support, etc.
[05:48] <mhz> highvoltage: and so far, how have you dealt with bottleneck? vmoral (one of the Tecnocimiento gang guys) is very concerned with potential school performance when 10 clients run ooo in parallel :D
[05:49] <weasl7> sorry to interrupt: what's the minimum memory required to run edu? tia
[05:50] <highvoltage> mhz: when you run ooo in parrallel, network traffic isn't normally such a problem.
[05:50] <highvoltage> what you run out of then, is disk bandwidth.
[05:50] <highvoltage> because your hard disk is seeking like mad opening OOo for all your users.
[05:50] <mhz> highvoltage: any chance you could stay here for 5 mins so vmoral talks to you. He's the tech guy here while me , more the teaching guy :)
[05:50] <highvoltage> good solution for that, run over multiple hard disks.
[05:51] <highvoltage> yes, sure. my internet at home is fine again, so i'll be here 24 hours a day again, except for the 15 minutes it takes to get to work, and again to get back to home.
[05:55] <vmoral> highvoltage: Hello there...
[05:56] <highvoltage> hi vmoral 
[05:56] <mhz> vmoral: let me paste the conversation about the bottleneck so far
[05:57] <mhz>  mhz: when you run ooo in parrallel, network traffic isn't normally such a problem.
[05:57] <mhz> highvoltage what you run out of then, is disk bandwidth.
[05:57] <mhz> highvoltage because your hard disk is seeking like mad opening OOo for all your users.
[05:57] <mhz> mhz highvoltage: any chance you could stay here for 5 mins so vmoral talks to you. He's the tech guy here while me , more the teaching guy :)
[05:57] <mhz> highvoltage good solution for that, run over multiple hard disks.
[05:57] <vmoral> highvoltage: I was talking with mhz and he told me that you are working with ltsp & ubuntu...
[05:57] <vmoral> highvoltage: how many stations running in parallel?
[05:57] <highvoltage> yes, if you add another disk, and stripe them, you double the disk bandwidth.
[05:58] <highvoltage> vmoral: i haven't worked on either ubuntu or ltsp yet, although i've been using both for quite a while
[05:58] <highvoltage> we run 20 stations in parrallel in most of our labs.
[05:58] <highvoltage> 4 of them run 40
[05:59] <highvoltage> and we have 1 lab running 80 workstations.
[05:59] <highvoltage> the 80 workstation lab has 2 servers, with 4 hard disks, and 8GB RAM in total.
[05:59] <mhz> wow! and what is the average server hw on those labs?
[05:59] <vmoral> highvoltage: ufff.. but, let me see. If i get it right, ltsp is based on X11 forwarding, isn't ti?
[05:59] <highvoltage> 2x 2.8ghz xeon cpu's
[06:00] <highvoltage> vmoral: ltsp.org uses xdmcp, ubuntu ltsp uses ssh.
[06:00] <mhz> highvoltage: hehe, that hw is far from Chilean reality on schools :D
[06:00] <highvoltage> so ubuntu's ltsp is better by design.
[06:01] <vmoral> right, but it's based on projection.. let's say X11 remote rendering.
[06:01] <highvoltage> mhz: it would've been in .za too, if it weren't for funding from sabdfl ;)
[06:01] <highvoltage> vmoral: yep
[06:01] <mhz> .oO(sabdfl rocks!)
[06:01] <highvoltage> yep.
[06:01] <vmoral> so, when the users start any sw with, let's say, animations - flash - etc... do you have a bottleneck in the network?
[06:02] <highvoltage> flash can be quite intensive.
[06:02] <mhz> indeed, and many users still prefer it over html :(
[06:02] <highvoltage> i looked at a 27 seat lab running flash recently, and it got slow.
[06:03] <highvoltage> in that case, it would be a good idea to add a second gigabit ethernet adaptor to the server, and bridge the two devices, doubling your network bandwidth.
[06:03] <vmoral> yep... that's it. what are your network specifications?
[06:03] <vmoral> ok
[06:03] <highvoltage> in a normal 20 seat lab, one gigabit adaptor on server and switch. clients use normal 100mbit cards.
[06:03] <vmoral> so the server has a giga card and cascaded switches?
[06:03] <vmoral> cool
[06:04] <highvoltage> in a 20 seat lab, only one switch.
[06:04] <vmoral> any troubles there
[06:04] <highvoltage> we use 24+2 switches, 24 100mbps, and 2 gb ports.
[06:04] <highvoltage> nope, with 20 computers, 1 switch is generally fine.
[06:05] <vmoral> and a server with the GB card...
[06:05] <mhz> yeah, but dont forget you still have a pretty nice server
[06:05] <highvoltage> although, if you have a spare $20 or so, i think it's worth while adding another gb card to the server.
[06:05] <highvoltage> with a thin client network, you'll always need a nice server.
[06:05] <mhz> lol
[06:06] <vmoral> mhz: there's no problem about the cpu load, is network bandwidth... and the disks (sure)
[06:06] <vmoral> have you ever measured the load of OO instances? how much ram / cpu it uses?
[06:07] <highvoltage> 4 things to keep an eye on with a ltsp network is: *RAM *Bandwidth *CPU *Disks
[06:07] <vmoral> sure
[06:07] <highvoltage> if you can keep those on high levels, then things work nicely.
[06:07] <vmoral> i guess that a sata array will work fine.
[06:07] <mhz> highvoltage: so, in your on-site experience, you think we could target  low-income schools with edubuntu as a solution? 
[06:07] <highvoltage> i've seen servers go up to a load average of 7 to 8 while opening lots of OOo instances.
[06:08] <highvoltage> mhz: yes.
[06:08] <vmoral> your servers?
[06:08] <vmoral> let's say the dual ones?
[06:08] <highvoltage> typical server, Intel Xeon 3ghz, 2GB RAM, 2x120GB disks, gigabit ethernet.
[06:08] <vmoral> SATA, i guess...
[06:09] <highvoltage> but adding another Xeon CPU, another 2GB RAM, and another network card is ideal.
[06:09] <highvoltage> yes, SATA.
[06:09] <vmoral> typical for... let's say... 30 stations, OO users, firefox navigators?
[06:09] <highvoltage> don't go out of your way for SATA though, not a world of difference between SATA and PATA disks, really.
[06:09] <mhz> weasl7: did you get the "requirements" ? :D
[06:10] <vmoral> mhhh.. i don't think so... sata has changed my (administrator) life :)
[06:10] <highvoltage> if you do all of them at the same time, your ram requirements go up a lot.
[06:10] <vmoral> sure
[06:11] <highvoltage> take 4GB RAM / 30 users, that's 133MB ram per user
[06:11] <highvoltage> so you could compare that to a computer with 133 MB ram
[06:11] <highvoltage> some people would say sure, but when that runs out you can use swap.
[06:11] <highvoltage> but you don't want your server to go into swap, it makes your disk bandwidth worse.
[06:12] <mhz> good point
[06:14] <vmoral> no swap.... fact : a simple instance of OO 1.1.4 , uses 45Mb
[06:14] <highvoltage> just a moment...
[06:14] <vmoral> OOwriter.
[06:15] <highvoltage> http://lists.debian.org/debian-edu/2005/09/msg00067.html
[06:16] <highvoltage> that was done in a 27 seat lab.
[06:16] <vmoral> mhz: so you can see.. there are big requirements of network. a server with a gigabit interface, a switch with gb too... a server with 2Gb ram and several sata disks.. i don't really know if it'll be affordable to the local schools...
[06:17] <mhz> hmm, yes I am starting to be scare :)
[06:17] <highvoltage> vmoral, mhz: so what's the alternative?
[06:17] <mhz> I fear we'll get to become VERY creative on finding affordable solutions
[06:17] <highvoltage> you need a powerful server, but you can use old, donated workstations.
[06:18] <vmoral> highvoltage: nice link... but it look a little optimistic about the OO mem usage...
[06:18] <vmoral> don't worry... we will :)
[06:18] <mhz> highvoltage: indeed. Unfortunately, Chile is still a society where donations is not something you see on regular basis.
[06:20] <mhz> highvoltage: in fact, one of Tecnocimiento projects is called RecicLab and it is aimed to start donation program from big companies
[06:21] <highvoltage> that's real cool. i hope it takes off.
[06:21] <mhz> but we're still on the "please, let's try to launch" :)
[06:21] <vmoral> we'll have to ask them not only for recycled worstations but a nice server too ;)
[06:21] <mhz> thx
[06:21] <mhz> lol
[06:21] <mhz> indeed
[06:23] <mhz> highvoltage: i believe, Oliver metnioned something about clustering. Do you any thing about that?
[06:23] <vmoral> well.. in any case the requirements can change between installations. A little school running gcompris, keduca and little weight apps won't need a super server nor a super net..
[06:23] <highvoltage> a little, i haven't used it though.
[06:23] <mhz> good point
[06:23] <vmoral> clustering is nice.. but quite hard to mantain.
[06:23] <highvoltage> i don't think many people have, i don't think it's very viable.
[06:24] <highvoltage> clustering is also a bit useless with very old worskations
[06:24] <vmoral> for a classroom is far too complex.
[06:24] <mhz> vmoral: maybe for now, we should also encourage teachers to run simple and low requirements apps.
[06:24] <mhz> at least while we get better machines
[06:24] <vmoral> and wait the recycling of big servers...
[06:25] <vmoral> (how optimistic i can be..)
[06:25] <mhz> LOL
[06:25] <vmoral> mhz: sorry, long time no chat.. what means lol?
[06:25] <mhz> highvoltage: thx for documenting everything so far, BTW
[06:26] <highvoltage> vmoral: these days, people use lol way to liberaly
[06:26] <mhz> vmoral: laughing out loud
[06:26] <highvoltage> it's supposed to mean "laughing out loud", but few people still do that.
[06:26] <mhz> highvoltage: not me, I am very happy person
[06:26] <vmoral> thx
[06:26] <mhz> .oO(vmoral can tell)
[06:26] <highvoltage> when i have a real laughing out loud, it's often so violent that people want to call an ambulance. when i say lol, i mean it :)
[06:26] <mhz> LOL
[06:27] <vmoral> LOL x 2
[06:27] <vmoral> (using it in an arithmetic context)
[06:27] <mhz> hehehe
[06:27] <vmoral> well people, i've to keep running my programming marathon.
[06:27] <vmoral> thanks a lot highvoltage
[06:28] <mhz> vmoral: speaking about math, please be at the office when Rodrigo and I prepare tomorrows presentation at USACH (Semana de Ciencias)
[06:28] <mhz> we could use some help there
[06:28] <vmoral> mhz: i'll try..
[06:28] <mhz> ok.
[06:28] <mhz> see ya vmoral
[06:29] <vmoral> highvoltage: thanks a lot for sharing your expirience. we'll keep you informed about any "third worldist" implementation.... be well :)
[06:30] <mhz> highvoltage: me.. I am gonna take care of my dauhter's lunch now. BBL
[06:30] <highvoltage> cool, ok :)
[06:30] <vmoral> see ya people
[06:31] <mhz_lunch> highvoltage: btw, how about users experience? Do they notice any diff between ltsp or local work?
[06:32] <highvoltage> bbl, the simpsons is starting now.
[06:35] <mhz_lunch> :D
[06:42] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:42] <highvoltage> goodnight, js.
[07:19] <mhz> re
[07:20] <mhz> jose__: estas usando edubuntu?
[08:11] <Yukaro> good evening
[08:15] <mhz_lunch> good evening
[08:20] <highvoltage> good evening
[08:25] <Yukaro> have anyone a tipp for me why my clients couldnt log in ( on the ltsp server ) ? i get the loginmask. put in the username and password, then a black screen and after that the loginscreen again :/
[08:31] <bluefrog-10> ssh pb
[08:31] <bluefrog-10> hang on
[08:32] <bluefrog-10> try the following on the server
[08:33] <bluefrog-10> sudo rm /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ssh/ssh_known_hosts
[08:33] <bluefrog-10> sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys
[08:33] <Yukaro> ok
[08:33] <Yukaro> thx
[08:33] <Yukaro> ill try it. 
[08:34] <Yukaro> (tomorrow)
[08:34] <Yukaro> any other ideas ?
[08:35] <bluefrog-10> it's likely to be this one
[08:35] <Yukaro> ok. its a known bug ?
[08:35] <bluefrog-10> yep
[08:35] <Yukaro> ok, thx very much
[08:38] <highvoltage> hi bluefrog-10 
[08:38] <bluefrog-10> hi
[08:38] <highvoltage> haven't seen you aroung yet. are you an ubuntu developer?
[08:38] <bluefrog-10> no
[08:38] <highvoltage> your name looks familiar
[08:39] <bluefrog-10> am hangin g around since one week when i started to ahve a deeper look in breezy
[08:40] <bluefrog-10> wrote a few answers on forum as well
[10:52] <mhz_llibre> re
[11:11] <rexykik> anyone know much about doing thin client booting on ltsp? When I boot a terminal I seem to get to xdm on the terminal, but when I logon my x server just restarts, which makes me believe that it is a local X session rather than booting from the X-server of the ltsp server.
[11:13] <bluefrog-10> what do u mean by resen?tart? u try to log in and u're back to login scre
[11:15] <rexykik> right
[11:15] <bluefrog-10> have u tried the ssh tricks i gave u?
[11:15] <rexykik> it does what the effect of a ctrl-alt-backspace does (as far as I can tell), and then auto-starts x again
[11:16] <rexykik> yes, i tried renewing the ssh keys
[11:16] <bluefrog-10> then u should try to remove standalone and install (from synaptic the normal ltsp
[11:17] <bluefrog-10> i have no pb with it
[11:17] <bluefrog-10> or install edubuntu
[11:18] <rexykik> edubuntu is what is installed
[11:19] <bluefrog-10> then renewing the ssh should have done the job
[11:19] <rexykik> 'kay. Sorry about that...just went to doublecheck from my boss and he says its regular ubuntu.
[11:19] <rexykik> so yeah. i'll install regular.
[11:20] <bluefrog-10> just remove standalone and get normal from synaptic
[11:26] <hoaryuser> hello??
[11:27] <rexykik> hey
[11:27] <mhz> re
[11:27] <hoaryuser> any dicussions on, I just joined
[11:28] <rexykik> just one that probably ended
[11:28] <hoaryuser> about?
[11:28] <mhz> highvoltage: ping?
[11:31] <bluefrog-10> rexykik, still there?
[11:32] <rexykik> yes
[11:32] <rexykik> ltsp-server-standalone is installed along with ltsp-server. Will I still be able to do thin-client boots with ltsp-server? is standalone just buggy or something?
[11:32] <bluefrog-10> paste.ubuntulinux.nl/3673    total setup for ltsp on breezy
[11:33] <bluefrog-10> couldn't succeed with standalone. no problem with ltsp alone or edubuntu.
[11:35] <bluefrog-10> remove standalone, it will creates interference i think
[11:37] <bluefrog-10> edubuntu does a marvelous for clients autodectection but it has no sound (next release will). if u don't need sound install edubuntu. if u do follow my howto. in both cases it's a matter of minutes to get the server running
[11:44] <rexykik> yup. i'll try this; if i get no work-ability i shall try edubuntu
[11:44] <rexykik> its a nice guide but i'm having a little trouble following
[11:45] <rexykik> }}} denotes a...note?
[11:45] <bluefrog-10> pretty much straight forward though
[11:45] <bluefrog-10> no those commes from the formatting on ubuntu wiki. just ignore them