[12:02] <mdz> Mithrandir: take a look at the high-priority specs which aren't yet assigned
[12:02] <mdz> spayne: it doesn't build on amd64 at the moment, but I had it building and working in the past so it should be possible to fix it
[12:03] <Amaranth> spayne: i didn't look at that one
[12:03] <mdz> spayne: but I won't have time for it, practically speaking, ever
[12:03] <spayne> mdz: sorry man :(
[12:03] <spayne> mdz: i'm too lowly to do it
[12:03] <spayne> mdz: just a meesly servant to those MOTU masters :)
[12:03] <mdz> I canceled my cable TV and so my interest in mythtv has waned
[12:04] <Mithrandir> spayne: I'll see if it's trivially fixable, at least
[12:08] <spayne> Mithrandir: will you ping me if you find anything?
[12:08] <Mithrandir> spayne: it should use libavcodec-dev and not the one it ships, at least
[12:10] <infinity> Mithrandir : Claim LiveCD Performance Improvements, it may fit in with your other livefs-related specs.
[12:10] <Mithrandir> infinity: I'm subscribed to it, I don't know what else I can do. :-)
[12:15] <spayne> night all
[12:29] <zyga> robertj^: Ubuntu.Mac would... just.... *rock*
[12:29] <zyga> wow :-)
[12:51] <pitti> infinity: indeed the current async behavior of the kernel could be improved, but that's out of scope for us I'm afraid
[12:51] <tseng> infinity: duck or dragon?
[12:51] <tseng> infinity: 7 members?
[12:51] <Nafallo> duck!
[12:51] <Nafallo> :-)
[12:55] <infinity> pitti : Read my followup to 18571.  I don't think it's the async behaviour that needs to be fixed, but rather the sync behaviour.
[12:55] <infinity> pitti : If sync were atomic at the file level, rather than the block level (which makes far more sense on FAT, since FAT doesn't journal), the problem would be solved, IMO.
[12:55] <pitti> infinity: hm, but sync is intrinsically evil for flash memory, how this shold be fixed?
[12:56] <infinity> pitti : No, sync on FAT is evil for flash, not sync in general.
[12:56] <infinity> pitti : Again, solved if we're atomic at the file level, not the block level (so the FAT gets updates once per file, instead of once per block)
[12:58] <infinity> pitti : At any rate, I was pretty freaked out earlier today to see my massive file copy to USB flash being done async, so it interests me.  I'm not sure if I have the time to do the above kernel hacking, but that doesn't make the bug any less of a bug. :)
[12:59] <pitti> infinity: it's not a bug IMHO - if you do proper unmounting, everything is synced eventually
[12:59] <infinity> pitti : Win32 DOES appear to write to USB flash devices synchronously (the file copy dialog sure blocks for a long time, and when it's done, I can remove the flash and it's working)
[12:59] <pitti> infinity: and there already is an open bug to display the progress when unounting
[12:59] <infinity> So, clearly Microsoft has worked around this in their FAT driver.
[01:00] <pitti> ok, let's continue tomorrow - the guys cry for going to dinner :-)
[01:00] <infinity> Heh.  Fair enough.
[01:28] <Nafallo> daniels: you touched vim last, right? :-)
[01:29] <Nafallo> daniels: hi btw :-)
[01:33] <daniels> Nafallo: i did the vim merge and added dapper to the list of distributions, yeah
[01:34] <Nafallo> daniels: so why do we have a gvim.desktop in vim? :-)
[01:35] <Nafallo> since that is provided by vim-[gnome,gtk] 
[01:36] <daniels> Nafallo: *shrug*
[01:37] <Nafallo> daniels: bug? want it reported? :-)
[01:38] <daniels> Nafallo: um, I dunno.  suddenly showing up in menus?
[01:38] <Nafallo> daniels: yepp
[01:39] <Nafallo> nafallo@darkelf:~ $ LANG="C" gvim
[01:39] <Nafallo> E25: GUI cannot be used: Not enabled at compile time
[01:39] <Nafallo> that's the result for the command ;-)
[01:39] <daniels> oh, hrm
[01:39] <daniels> we've had this problem before
[01:45] <daniels> Nafallo: which variant did you install?
[01:45] <daniels> vim-gtk should work afaict
[01:45] <Nafallo> daniels: I didn't. vim is installed by default :-)
[01:45] <Nafallo> ubuntu-minimal :-)
[02:01] <Nafallo> daniels: want a bugreport or fixing it now? :-)
[02:04] <daniels> Nafallo: i'm looking at it now
[02:05] <Nafallo> daniels: oki. thanx :-).
[02:07] <marcin> hi guys
[02:07] <marcin> I want to create package that contains some rnc schemas 
[02:07] <marcin> and I wonder if there is some preferred path for these files
[02:08] <marcin> there is /usr/share/sgml and /usr/share/xml with dtd and xml schemas
[02:08] <marcin> could someone help me to decide where to install Relax NG schemas?
[02:09] <bob2> there's no Debian xml schema policy?
[02:10] <marcin> bob2: RelaxNG schemas are not sgml and also not xml
[02:11] <marcin> bob2: they are related to xml but not in xml format
[02:11] <daniels> /usr/share/relaxng seems pretty obvious
[02:11] <marcin> bob2: so I'm not sure if they suit to /usr/share/xml
[02:11] <daniels> if they're not xml, don't put them in /usr/share/xml
[02:14] <marcin> daniels: hmmm in fact there is a lot of files that are not xml in /usr/share/xml actually
[02:14] <daniels> such as?
[02:14] <marcin> maybe /usr/share/xml/schema/ and add 'rnc' subdirectory
[02:15] <marcin> daniels: for example /usr/share/xml/libglade/glade-2.0.dtd
[02:16] <daniels> that's a DTd
[02:16] <marcin> daniels: I know what it is
[02:16] <marcin> daniels: and it's not xml
[02:17] <marcin> daniels: just like rnc files - they are not in xml format but they are simmilar thing to dtd
[02:17] <marcin> daniels: www.relaxng.org
[02:17] <daniels> right, but my point is that DTDs are not actual XML fils, but they're part of the standard, etc, etc
[02:18] <daniels> if I write an external app and then put my random validation stuff into /usr/share/xml in whatever format, it would seem a bit weird
[02:19] <marcin> daniels: dtd, xml schema and relaxng are in fact the same thing
[02:20] <marcin> daniels: just some different ideas - and only xml schema is in xml format
[02:40] <sbalneav> Evening all
[02:50] <Unfrgiven> hi all
[02:50] <Unfrgiven> slomo_: ping?
[03:46] <Kinnison> ciao all
[03:46] <Nafallo> Kinnison: gbye :-)
[04:27] <glick> hi
[04:27] <glick> hey is there any chance of seeing a frubuntu?  ubuntu with a freebsd kernel?
[04:28] <daniels> well, debian started a port ages ago and after years of work, hasn't really got anywhere
[04:28] <daniels> either you need to adjust everything to cope with a bsd libc, or make glibc work fine on fbsd
[04:28] <daniels> so if you can do it basically on your own and do what debian hasn't managed to do in years, sure
[04:29] <glick> daniels, wouldnt that just mean compiling everything agains libc?
[04:29] <crimsun> "just"
[04:29] <HrdwrBoB> yeah it's easy
[04:29] <crimsun> that's a huge undertaking
[04:29] <HrdwrBoB> go and try it now
[04:30] <dilinger> daniels: i get the impression there's never more than 1 developer working on debian/kfreebsd at a time
[04:30] <daniels> dilinger: even so, it's been, what, four years? five?
[04:30] <dilinger> yea
[04:30] <dilinger> something like that
[04:30] <glick> well what if SCO should win?
[04:31] <glick> would be nice to have a freebsd kernel we can just swap in
[04:31] <HrdwrBoB> yeah that's highly likely to happen
[04:31] <HrdwrBoB> I'm personally terrified
[04:31] <crimsun> Duke Nukem Forever will be released to retail first
[04:31] <glick> you never know
[04:31] <dilinger> glick: win what?
[04:32] <glick> dilinger, you know the the case against linux
[04:32] <HrdwrBoB> glick: it's against IBM
[04:32] <HrdwrBoB> and many people do know
[04:32] <dilinger> it's against IBM and former SCO users
[04:32] <glick> yeah and if they win everyone using linux will have to purchase licenese
[04:32] <dilinger> neither group i'm particularly concerned about..
[04:32] <HrdwrBoB> quick, I better purchase my license quick
[04:33] <HrdwrBoB> glick: as opposed to getting the offending code out of the linux kernel
[04:33] <HrdwrBoB> instead of doing that, we can completely change the architecture
[04:33] <glick> wont the offending code make linux suck again?
[04:33] <glick> if we took that out?
[04:34] <daniels> this is now *massively* offtopic -- please take it to #groklaw or #sco or some other appropriate forum.
[05:05] <schweeb> mako or Kamion or elmo: ping
[05:20] <robitaille> mako, jdub:   it seems someone subscribed ubuntu-user@ubuntu.org.cn to the ubuntu-user list, and feeding a copy of the list emails back to the list...
[05:21] <robitaille> s/feeding/is feeding
[05:30] <robitaille> http://www.ubuntu.org.cn/   anyone can read chinese?  It seems to be a pretty complete site about Ubuntu
[05:31] <freeflying> robitaille:it's our site for chinese user
[05:36] <robitaille> freeflying,  ah.  It looks nice, but I can't read any of it :)
[05:37] <freeflying> because it's for chinese user
[05:37] <robitaille> freeflying,  so do you know anything about the email address from your site looping emails from the ubuntu-user list back to the list? 
[05:38] <freeflying> it's a ml plugin of phpbb to do this
[05:40] <robitaille> freeflying,  maybe you should it.  everyone on the lsit is getting 2 copies of most emails on the list: the original, and a 2nd copy coming from your domain
[05:40] <robitaille> maybe you should figure out the problem before more people complain
[05:40] <freeflying> let us solve this
[05:41] <robitaille> thanks
[05:41] <freeflying> sorry for this
[07:53] <nailbiter> daniels: Hi there. :) I believe your 028_loader_speed_hack.diff patch to Debian/Ubuntu xserver-xorg breaks the '-configure' option. Could we discuss this?
[08:10] <zyga> hello
[08:14] <daniels> nailbiter: yeah, it does
[08:14] <daniels> nailbiter: it's been merged upstream and fixed properly there
[08:49] <bob2> is security.ubuntu.com supposed to be a full ubuntu mirror?
[08:53] <kamstrup> Have you guys seen this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=71614 ?
[08:54] <kamstrup> Might be a cool thing to ship with Dapper Shit-It CDs
[08:54] <mdke> but the computer is NOT designed for Ubuntu
[08:54] <daniels> (ship-it)
[08:54] <mdke> it would be a lie
[08:55] <mdke> although they are cool
[08:55] <hunger_> kamstrup: Shit-It CDs?
[08:56] <kamstrup> hunger: Oops that was a typo
[08:57] <kamstrup> mdke: It does not have to be *exact* copies of that sticker...
[08:57] <hunger> kamstrup: I actually guessed that;-)
[08:57] <mdke> ah
[08:57] <kamstrup> It could just say "Ubuntu Inside" or something
[08:57] <mdke> people sell ubuntu stickers here in the UK
[08:57] <mdke> i'm sure you'll find em on ebay or whatever i your country
[08:58] <kamstrup> mdke, It's not because I want them (although I do), I just think it would be awesome if ShiP-It Cds came with one of these
[09:00] <kamstrup> It is good branding, and it it will really give the impression (correctly) that the box contains the power to free your computer permanently
[09:03] <hunger> kamstrup: Maybe HP copuld add such a sticker to their laptops? They announced the will to support/be supported by ubuntu.
[09:04] <kamstrup> hunger, Yes, I hope they will. I don't expect to see a "Designed for Windows" sticker on them - that's for sure ;-P
[09:04] <hunger> kamstrup: I bet they will have those.
[09:05] <kamstrup> hunger, Ubuntu or MS stickers?
[09:05] <zyga> is there any vector image of the sticker?
[09:05] <hunger> kamstrup: Actually I do not mind... I hate stickers anyway and remove all of them.
[09:05] <zyga> hunger: clueless people enjoy stickers, they reassure them of quality and such
[09:05] <hunger> kamstrup: Designed for Win. They won't want to frighten away those Nobs.
[09:06] <kamstrup> zyga, I don't think there is...
[09:06] <zyga> cannonical could really shine here
[09:06] <kamstrup> zyga, although he says he has a "high res" - what ever that means-
[09:06] <hunger> zyga: Wow, I must be really smart then;-)
[09:06] <zyga> you don't find designed for red hat in any store
[09:07] <mdke> i think they spend enough money on the CDs already, without shipping free stickers or other stuff
[09:07] <zyga> hunger: don't get me wrong but most of my friends don't grok computer specs anymore and they look at price first, stickers second
[09:07] <mdke> personally I think each shipit cd should come with a free can of beer
[09:07] <zyga> mdke: shipping a sticker template a a .svg could help
[09:07] <kamstrup> Oh, "Free as in beer"
[09:07] <zyga> hehehe
[09:07] <zyga> lol
[09:07] <zyga> but who would want to drink that british excuse for a beer ;-))
[09:08] <kamstrup> mdke, I think Ubuntu should ship with the *recipe* for beer
[09:08] <mdke> the cds don't come from britain
[09:08] <kamstrup> -- that would be freedom
[09:08] <zyga> no but really, a .svg for the sticker would *really* rock
[09:08] <zyga> maybe a paid sticker program too,
[09:08] <kamstrup> zyga, yes, but who has the printer to print alu stickers?
[09:09] <zyga> send us $X and we'll send you Y sheets of stickers
[09:09] <schweeb> kamstrup: there are places that will take a vector image and print stickers
[09:09] <zyga> kamstrup: at home? no-one but many printing shos do
[09:09] <hunger> zyga: Actually I do not bother with specs anymore either. I only buy laptops and look for stability there.
[09:09] <zyga> s/shos/shops/
[09:09] <schweeb> kamstrup: check out the debian page about stickers... they tell you where to take it
[09:10] <Mithrandir> kamstrup: my gf is already selling ubuntu t-shirts.  I'll ask her what she thinks about expanding the product line. :-)  We'll have to find a supplier, though.
[09:11] <hunger> kamstrup: laptops are mostly the same inside anyways... some stupid winmodem, the rest is supported well enough in Linux.
[09:12] <kamstrup> everybody: The point was mostly that I think it would rock to have stickers in the Ship-It CDs
[09:12] <zyga> kamstrup: yes
[09:12] <kamstrup> whether or not this is too expensive I have no idea about
[09:13] <zyga> since cannonical probably orders cd in big volumes the cost per cd is small
[09:13] <Mithrandir> kamstrup: a price of 0.5 USD would be fairly expensive and would double the price of the CD or thereabouts.
[09:13] <kamstrup> If Dapper will be single CD then perhaps it will be feasible
[09:13] <zyga> I'd say ordering a huge volume of stickers could be really small
[09:13] <zyga> (as far as $ are concerned)
[09:14] <kamstrup> Mithrandir, yeah, I know, but 0.5$ seems like *really* expensive stickers
[09:14] <zyga> I doubt that cost per sticker is more than 0.02$
[09:14] <zyga> in volumes of 100K
[09:14] <kamstrup> zyga, Yes that was also my thought
[09:15] <kamstrup> but I have no idea about this
[09:15] <Mithrandir> zyga: I'm not sure, since you'd want it to be durable and such
[09:15] <Mithrandir> at least http://www.namethatcomputer.com/index.php?page=main quotes it at 0.50USD/ea for quantities of 1k
[09:15] <zyga> Mithrandir: I'm not talking about low quaility stuff
[09:15] <zyga> Mithrandir: ordering in volume really cuts the price you know
[09:16] <Mithrandir> zyga: yes, I know that. :-P
[09:16] <zyga> bah
[09:16] <zyga> I'll mail that company and ask about the 100K price tag
[09:16] <zyga> :-)
[09:16] <kamstrup> How many Hoary CDs where shipped?
[09:16] <hunger> Mithandir: The "designed for Win" stickers are not that durable either. Most of my collegues have a blanked out their sticker by now.
[09:17] <zyga> kamstrup: AFAIR totall CDs shipped were somewhere between 200K and 500K
[09:17] <zyga> but I might be very wrong, that was long time ago
[09:17] <robitaille> over 1 millions CD where shipped for Warty
[09:18] <kamstrup> I just thought I heard 1.000.000 somewhere, but again, I'm clueless
[09:18] <kamstrup> robitaille, I thought so :)
[09:18] <Mithrandir> hunger: the newest ones are quite durable.  They've survived me for a year.
[09:18] <zyga> oh boy :)
[09:19] <zyga> I'll change that to 1M order
[09:19] <kamstrup> I expect DapperDrake to ship quite a bit more than Wart :)
[09:19] <kamstrup> Warty
[09:19] <robitaille> and the figure of 0.45 EUR per set of CDs has been quoted in the past on a mailing list to produce the CDs (i.,e before shipping cost).  So if your stickers cost 0.5US, that's a huge price tag for small stickers.. 
[09:19] <Mithrandir> robitaille: produce, pack and prepare for shipping, yes.
[09:20] <robitaille> by the way there is an Ubuntu Marketing mailing list that may be very appropriate for this type of discussion 
[09:21] <kamstrup> Should I post to it, or are one you guys going to do it?
[09:21] <zyga> heh, mail away 
[09:21] <zyga> I wonder what, if anything, will they reply
[09:22] <zyga> (I emailed that company someone has post url to)
[09:30] <nailbiter> daniels: Ah, thanks. :)
[09:31] <nailbiter> daniels: I've just had a look at an X.org CVS snapshot from upstream, and it looks like they've now introduced an off-by-one bug that causes a segfault when running '-configure'. Can I send you a patch for this?
[09:32] <daniels> nailbiter: sure :)
[09:32] <daniels> nailbiter: daniel.stone@ubuntu.com
[09:52] <kamstrup> Mithrandir, zyga: Mail send to ubuntu-marketing.
[09:59] <zyga> did he mean 'send' or 'sent'?
[10:06] <Treenaks> Zend
[10:53] <Mithrandir> zyga: sent, I guess
[10:54] <zyga> Mithrandir: yeah I've seen the mail already ;)
[11:03] <dholbach> "morning"
[11:04] <Treenaks> 'night dholbach :)
[11:04] <Treenaks> how's teh canada?
[11:04] <dholbach> hi Treenaks - you're already there? :)
[11:05] <dholbach> ... yet :)
[11:05] <Treenaks> dholbach: no, my flight leaves in 28 hours
[11:05] <dholbach> mine in 23
[11:05] <Treenaks> dholbach: where are you then? Still Germany?
[11:06] <dholbach> still germany, but at my parents place... it's nearer to the airport and i'll leave my dog here
[11:06] <Treenaks> poor dog :P
[11:06] <dholbach> no, not really :)
[11:08] <zyga> argh :/
[11:08] <zyga> does anyone around have a scanner?
[11:11] <koke> hmm, anyone taking the BA0095 flight?
[11:12] <Treenaks> koke: hm, I think so
[11:12] <Treenaks> koke: yes
[11:19] <spayne> mornin' all
[12:01] <fabbione> morning guys
[12:03] <Mithrandir> hi fabio
[12:04] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: hey
[12:04] <Mithrandir> hi Martijn
[12:04] <Treenaks> Mithrandir: I heard you'll be "behind security" at Schiphol at the same time as me? :)
[12:04] <Treenaks> (waiting for another flight, but still.. )
[12:05] <Mithrandir> Treenaks: I've heard so too, yes.
[12:15] <Mithrandir> elmo: could you please sync rpm 4.4.1-4 from Debian unstable?  Overriding ubuntu changes is ok.
[12:16] <fabbione> Mithrandir: when will you arrive?
[12:16] <Mithrandir> fabbione: saturday
[12:16] <fabbione> Mithrandir: ok
[12:16] <Mithrandir> plane lands at 1615
[12:16] <fabbione> Mithrandir: perfect
[12:16] <Mithrandir> how so?
[12:17] <fabbione> Mithrandir: it will give you time to come to the hotel and get ready for dinner and drinking session?
[12:17] <Mithrandir> indeed
[12:17] <Mithrandir> I'm probably fairly wasted by then, so I might want to make that dinner + short drinking session + bed
[12:17] <fabbione> my powerbook arrived yesterday at home
[12:17] <fabbione> *sighs*
[12:32] <hunger> What is the status of adding virtualization technology (xen, etc.) to ubuntu? There was discussion about this for breezy, I can't find a spec for dapper. Was that dropped?
[12:33] <fabbione> hunger: it has been postponed
[12:33] <hunger> fabbione: Post dapper?
[12:33] <fabbione> probably
[12:34] <hunger> fabbione: Thanks for the info.
[12:34] <HiddenWolf> shame, xen is the coolest thing ever. :)
[12:34] <Kinnison> Who here is going to UBZ flying tomorrow on BA95 from LHR->YUL 17:25 -> 19:25 ?
[12:35] <HiddenWolf> hunger, i'm planning to try out the competition this weekend, (read: civIV)
[12:35] <Yagisan> fabbione: I've been told you use distcc a lot. I set up a breezy pbuilder with distcc and ccache, but distcc fails to build packages
[12:36] <Yagisan> fabbione: is breezys distcc broken ?
[12:36] <fabbione> Yagisan: i used to use distcc...
[12:36] <fabbione> i don't do it anymore
[12:36] <hunger> HiddenWolf: Oh, I had not realized that that was a competition to Xen!
[12:36] <HiddenWolf> hunger, it is in the "coolest thing since sliced bread" catagory. ;)
[12:36] <fabbione> Yagisan:  and never used within pbuilder becuase it needs a daemon
[12:36] <hunger> HiddenWolf: I was wondering what all that interest in the Game "Civilisation IV" suddenly came from...
[12:37] <HiddenWolf> hunger, ;)
[12:38] <Yagisan> fabbione: daemon runs on another breezy box, but it miscompiles packages that work without it
[12:38] <hunger> HiddenWolf: Do you have an URL?
[12:39] <HiddenWolf> hunger, http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/index.html
[12:39] <hunger> HiddenWolf: Now you got me completly confused.
[12:40] <HiddenWolf> hunger, relax. :)
[01:39] <Robot101> any sitewranglers handy?
[01:40] <Robot101> we'd like a commits list for telepathy but our project hasn't been renamed to the right thing yet :(
[01:40] <Robot101> infinity: ping :D
[01:40] <Robot101> wow
[01:40] <Robot101> this is so not #freedesktop
[01:40] <Treenaks> not quite :)
[01:58] <bob2> haha
[02:11] <zyga> I need to plot some graphs based on lots of lots of data (1M records) can anyone suggest how to do this easily?
[02:11] <zyga> python is preferred :)
[02:11] <zyga> I need histograms first
[02:11] <tseng> rrdtool is cool
[02:11] <zyga> tseng: no, no round robin 
[02:11] <zyga> tseng: I need *all* data and it's static
[02:28] <drbyte> bob2: your wishes, are coming very true
[02:28] <bob2> bwahaha
[02:28] <drbyte> influence didn't work immediately, but hey... ;-)
[02:29] <bob2> it's a delayed reaction
[02:29] <drbyte> clearly. let me start a new year, anew
[02:29] <drbyte> ~2 months an counting to 1/1/2006
[02:31] <bob2> hahahahaha
[03:10] <Treenaks> everyone in Canada yet? :)
[03:11] <Simira> not everyone ;p
[03:11] <Simira> but speaking of it... anyone else taking the 2.20pm plane from Schiphol tomorrow?
[03:11] <Treenaks> Simira: Mithrandir ;)
[03:12] <Simira> Treenaks : oh, thanks for telling me! I'll try to arrange a meet-up with him, then
[03:13] <Treenaks> Simira: :P
[03:19] <infinity> Robot101 : pong.
[03:44] <jbailey> pitti: ayt?
[03:45] <pitti> Hi jbailey 
[03:45] <jbailey> g'm, Martin. =)
[03:45] <jbailey> pitti: When you do security updates, do you base your package off of updates in DISTRO-updates, or DISTRO?
[03:45] <pitti> jbailey: both actually
[03:46] <pitti> jbailey: we have to fix stuff for people that use -updates, and for people that don't
[03:46] <jbailey> Ah, cool.  Is there a security repo for -updates, or do you just do an upload there as well?
[03:46] <pitti> jbailey: yes, the latter
[03:47] <seb128> hey jbailey 
[03:47] <pitti> jbailey: well, if the patch in -updates was really, really small, I included it into -security and obsoleted -updates
[03:47] <jbailey> 'k.  Hmm.  So every upload to -updates winds up incurring an extra security penalty.
[03:47] <pitti> jbailey: so that we don't need to care for two versions any longer
[03:47] <pitti> jbailey: right
[03:48] <jbailey> I think I have one of those really really small updates for shorewall in 5.04 =)
[03:48] <jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
[03:48] <dholbach> hey jdub 
[03:48] <jbailey> seb128: g'm sb
[03:48] <jbailey> jdub: Have you arrived yet? =)
[03:48] <jdub> jbailey: yeah, got in last night
[03:49] <jbailey> jdub: If we're going to mud wrestle over the name, we need to do it before all the mud pits freeze over. =)
[03:49] <pitti> hi jdub
[03:49] <jdub> yo!
[03:52] <Seveas> hey jdub 
[03:52] <jdub> Seveas: hrm, Treenaks just gave me a preview of some of the outtakes. holy shit, i was being crazy mans that night! ;)
[03:52] <Seveas> jdub, to say it mildly... :)
[03:52] <Treenaks> jdub: GHOSTS
[03:56] <Treenaks> jdub: I also created another one after I sent the link
[03:56] <Treenaks> jdub: I'll take the entire video to Montreal with me :)
[03:57] <Mez> anyone in montreal yet ?
[03:57] <Treenaks> Mez: lots of them
[03:57] <Mez> ooh
[03:57] <Mez> I dont arrive till tomorrowe
[03:58] <Treenaks> Mez: me too
[03:58] <Mez> oh, you're coming?
[03:58] <Mez> I might cancel my flight then :P
[03:58] <Treenaks> Mez: hey, thanks.
[03:58] <dholbach> Mez: ...
[03:59] <Mez> Treenaks, I'm just kidding :P
[03:59] <Treenaks> dholbach: How much fun is it there, on a scale from 1-10?
[03:59] <Treenaks> Mez: I know :)
[03:59] <dholbach> Treenaks: below zero
[03:59] <Mez> dsholbach, you're there I take it then
[03:59] <Simira> dholbach : already there as well?
[03:59] <dholbach> not yet
[03:59] <Treenaks> dholbach: then it must be cool!
[03:59] <dholbach> tomorrow 12 CA time
[03:59] <Simira> dholbach : oh, a few hours before us, then
[03:59] <Mez> who's flying from the UK?
[03:59] <dholbach> Simira: yeah :)
[04:00] <Treenaks> Mez: through the UK
[04:00] <Treenaks> Mez: on BA00095
[04:00] <dholbach> haha :)
[04:00] <Treenaks> Mez: (come in on BA0435 leave on BA0095)
[04:00] <Mez> through heathrow?
[04:00] <Treenaks> Mez: yes
[04:00] <Mez> what time does it leave heathrow?
[04:01] <Treenaks> Mez: 17:something
[04:01] <Treenaks> 17:25
[04:01] <Mez> sweet
[04:01] <Mez> thats the flight I'm going out on
[04:01] <Treenaks> Mez: same flight?
[04:01] <Treenaks> Mez: koke too
[04:01] <Mez> koke ?>
[04:01] <Mez> dont think I know them
[04:01] <Treenaks> Mez: I'm in seat 24K
[04:02] <Treenaks> Mez: and I'm traveling with the guy next to me
[04:02] <Mez> I dont know what seat i'm in
[04:02] <Treenaks> (ubuntu-nl guy)
[04:02] <Treenaks> Mez: you can look it up on the ba.com websit
[04:02] <Treenaks> e
[04:02] <Mez> I dont know my reservation number
[04:02] <Treenaks> Mez: hm
[04:02] <Mez> unless it's letters
[04:03] <Treenaks> Mez: for met it's one letter, 2 digits, 3 letters
[04:03] <Mez> I dont think I got one of those
[04:03] <Treenaks> it's on my e-ticket
[04:03] <Mez> I just got an itinerary
[04:04] <Treenaks> Mez: how did you book?
[04:04] <Mez> through the guy who books the flights
[04:04] <Treenaks> ah.. "magic"
[04:04] <Mez> ...?
[04:05] <Treenaks> Mez: a black box: You put in a destination, out comes an itinerary :)
[04:05] <Treenaks> i.e. magic :)
[04:05] <Mez> yeah, I have ticket numbers ... and stufff
[04:05] <Mez> I think
[04:05] <Treenaks> Mez: anyway, I'll be wearing my ubuntu t-shirt
[04:05] <Mez> I dont know
[04:06] <Treenaks> Mez: "not hard to miss"
[04:06] <Mez> lol
[04:06] <Mez> I really dont know whether I can actually get my flight details
[04:06] <Mez> I dont have the email on me
[04:06] <Mez> and my home drive is on a CD
[04:06] <Mez> so hopefully when I install thunderbird on my laptop, I'll be able to read it
[04:07] <koke> when do you arrive at LHR?
[04:07] <Treenaks> koke: 15:10
[04:07] <Mez> I'm arriving there about 3
[04:08] <Mez> koke, you flyiung from heathrow?
[04:08] <koke> madrid-london first
[04:08] <koke> I think I'll have lunch at heathrow
[04:09] <koke> I depart from Madrid at ~13
[04:09] <koke> and there's no food in flight
[04:09] <Mez> what time you arrive aty heathrow koke?
[04:09] <koke> 14:35, I'm not sure if it's local time
[04:10] <Treenaks> koke: yes, it is
[04:10] <Treenaks> koke: Amsterdam -> Barcelona is 2 hours
[04:10] <Treenaks> koke: so Madrid -> London could well be 1:30
[04:11] <koke> 2hrs 20mins
[04:11] <siretart> anyone else flying tomorrow via Frankfurt/Main?
[04:11] <Treenaks> siretart: dholbach afaik
[04:12] <dholbach> yeah 2 hours before siretart 
[04:12] <Treenaks> DOH
[04:13] <siretart> dholbach: my flight is at 1400, but I'll be at FFM around 10:30
[04:13] <Mez> Treenaks, where does it show youre seat number
[04:13] <dholbach> siretart: oh, then it's 4h, i'll leave at 10:0
[04:13] <Treenaks> Mez: sidebar right-> request a seat
[04:13] <Treenaks> Mez: (under "advance information")
[04:13] <siretart> oh. even better
[04:16] <Mez> Treenaks, I cant reserve a seat
[04:17] <\sh> dholbach: when u start? 1200?
[04:17] <dholbach> 10
[04:17] <dholbach> 5:12 in trier
[04:17] <dholbach> *cry*
[04:17] <\sh> dholbach: to montreal?
[04:17] <Mez> \sh: you flying through heathrow too ?
[04:17] <\sh> Mez: no...ffm
[04:17] <\sh> Mez: together with siretart 
[04:18] <dholbach> \sh: 5:12 trier, 8 ffm, 10 take off
[04:18] <Mez> ah, and you'll probably be in the room next to me
[04:18] <SloMoSnail> infinity, lamont-away: can you please give-back mc on amd64? it failed because of missing libgcj
[04:18] <\sh> dholbach: ah..4 hours before we're starting :(
[04:18] <dholbach> *nod*
[04:18] <Mez> I arrive in montreal at 19:25 local time
[04:19] <\sh> grmpf...nobody is answering the phone at my bank...
[04:20] <siretart> \sh: which bank is it?
[04:20] <\sh> siretart: sparkasse
[04:20] <\sh> siretart: cologne :(
[04:20] <\sh> I think they want to fck with me...
[04:20] <siretart> :(
[04:20] <infinity> slomo : And it will continue to do so, I suspect.
[04:21] <\sh> anyways ec-card == maestro card == getting cash in canada as well ;)
[04:21] <siretart> I hope this works, I also have just a maestro card
[04:21] <slomo> infinity: that's bad... but ok, i can't do anything for that :/
[04:21] <\sh> siretart: I got money in ZA...so canada should work as well
[04:22] <siretart> cool :)
[04:22] <\sh> but I don't like to wait till monday for the money
[04:22] <Treenaks> Mez, koke, spacey: We _are_ going to do the badger dance, right? :)
[04:23] <infinity> slomo : Until gcc-4.0 builds on amd64, I expect you're kinda SOL there.
[04:23] <spacey> uuuh
[04:24] <infinity> Oh, crap.  gcc-4.0 is hung up on itself.
[04:24] <koke> Treenaks: this time I'd rather not to meet the security staff :P
[04:25] <Treenaks> koke: you did last time? :)
[04:26] <koke> not really, I passed through x^n security controls
[04:26] <koke> and get my bags inspected at customs
[04:27] <Treenaks> hm
[04:27] <Treenaks> I usually get through unchecked, don't know how strict Canadians are in that respect
[04:28] <Robot101> why is the "battery charge monitor" applet so shit?
[04:28] <Robot101> it's completely wrong
[04:28] <Robot101> robot101@thubuntu:~$ acpi
[04:28] <Robot101>      Battery 1: discharging, 79%, 01:38:36 remaining
[04:28] <Robot101> it says I'm on AC power
[04:28] <dilinger> does anyone here have an x40 or x41?
[04:28] <Robot101> even when I remove it and re-add it
[04:28] <Robot101> dilinger: me
[04:28] <Treenaks> Robot101: how long ago did you unplug?
[04:28] <Treenaks> Robot101: what does hal say?
[04:29] <dilinger> Robot101: how's the batery support/life (uh, other than applets being shit, that is :) , and how hot does it get?  is it the sort of thing you can keep on your lap, or should i look at the ultra low voltage 1.1/1.2ghz machines? 
[04:30] <Robot101> Treenaks: hal says AC is not present, battery 1 is discharging (correct) battery 2 is charging (lie, its not present)
[04:30] <Treenaks> Robot101: hmm
[04:30] <Treenaks> Robot101: crappy
[04:31] <mdke> elmo, any luck with planet?
[04:32] <elmo> mdke: it's not "luck", baz is broken
[04:32] <mjg59> Robot101: are you heading up north?
[04:33] <elmo> mdke: I'm going to get a baz developer to help me with it, but it's not exactly my top priority ATM, I'm afraid
[04:33] <mdke> elmo, i see, sorry I didn't know that :/ 
[04:33] <mdke> ok
[04:34] <mdke> bummero
[04:35] <Mez> elmo: you're techboard right?
[04:36] <elmo> mez: no
[04:36] <Mez> oh... ok :d
[04:36] <Mez> I can never remember who is :d
[04:36] <elmo> mez: it's on the wiki
[04:36] <Mez> other than mdz/sabdfl
[04:36] <mdke> Mez, see the website
[04:37] <mdke> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
[04:37] <Mez> I would if the browser in this fecking place worked properly (grr)
[04:38] <Mez> does anyone know how I get from heatrow terminal 1 to terminal 4
[04:39] <Riddell> Mez: shuttle bus
[04:39] <Riddell> Mez: follow the signs and get on the bus, it's pretty easy
[04:39] <Mez> Riddell: I'll have to try and find that lol
[04:39] <Riddell> bus is free
[04:40] <\sh> Riddell: i thought i cost 14 or 17 CAN$?
[04:40] <Mez> thats when we get there
[04:41] <Mez> not within heathrow
[04:41] <\sh> ah ;)
[04:41] <Mez> hmm
[04:41] <Mez> RyanLortie
[04:41] <Robot101> dilinger: doesn't get overly hot, the fan comes on when necessary. the 4-cell battery it comes with is good for 2-3 hours if you keep the screen turned down
[04:41] <Mez> if he's not confirmed does that mean I get a room to myself
[04:42] <Robot101> Mez: you can get a train too, also free
[04:42] <Robot101> Mez: follow signs for heathrow express
[04:43] <Robot101> dilinger: if you get the add on battery on the bottom it doubles that, and the 8-cell battery that sticks out the back has twice the capacity of the 4 (surprisingly) so 5 or 6 hours
[04:43] <Robot101> dilinger: depends on wireless use too, but you can toggle it easily 
[04:43] <Mez> Robot101... hmm... well I'm getting a train to watford junction - and then probably a bus from there (through virgin)
[04:43] <Mez> I'll have to find out when i get there
[04:44] <Mez> hope it doesnt take too long
[04:44] <Robot101> dilinger: I strongly recommend them, mjg59 too... and he has 10s of laptops and still uses his X40 by preference
[04:44] <dilinger> Robot101: cool, thanks
[04:44] <Robot101> dilinger: everything is supported properly with free software, except the modem and the SD slot
[04:44] <dilinger> a coworker's trying to convince me to get a powerbook; but i've had one, they're heavy and hot
[04:44] <HrdwrBoB> X40 FTW
[04:44] <dilinger> Robot101: really?  even the wireless?
[04:44] <Robot101> and they have broadcom wireless and ATI 3d
[04:45] <koke> Mez: https://www.britishairways.com/cms/global/images/content/main/150by120/lhr_dom1_int4_cnx.gif
[04:45] <Robot101> dilinger: ipw2200 in new ones
[04:45] <mdke> Mez, watford junction to heathrow is probably about 40 minutes or so
[04:45] <Robot101> dilinger: X40 has longer battery life than X41 due to slower CPU and memory
[04:45] <mdke> bit more for terminal 4
[04:45] <HrdwrBoB> I have a cisco aironet 250 in mine
[04:45] <Robot101> Mez: that sounds like a horrific route, where are yo coming from?
[04:46] <Mez> Birmingham
[04:46] <Mez> I booked a\ ticket with Virgin to heathrow
[04:46] <dilinger> Robot101: i'm sold.  thanks
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> Robot101: no ati
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> Robot101: that was in X31
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> X40 has i855
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> still, it works fine
[04:47] <Robot101> HrdwrBoB: I was talking about the evils of the powerbook
[04:47] <HrdwrBoB> oh, ah
[04:47] <Robot101> the IBM is all good with free software, powerbooks are decidedly not
[04:48] <Robot101> dilinger: and for the size, it's a remarkably usable keyboard
[04:48] <Robot101> dilinger: and... three mouse buttons! :)
[04:48] <HrdwrBoB> and no stupid trackpad!
[04:48] <Robot101> ohh and loads of niceties... the thinklight shines on the keyboard for nighttime hacking, and its software controllable :D
[04:49] <Robot101> the mute button is in the hardware so you can press it at boot and know that there will be no embarrasing beeps in the conference/lecture/meeting/etc
[04:49] <Mez> gtg
[04:49] <Robot101> and is stored in nvram so persists across boots
[04:49] <Robot101> best laptop ever.
[04:49] <HrdwrBoB> and it's sexy
[04:49] <mdke> i can recommend the t43, without ati
[04:51] <Robot101> Treenaks: btw, putting the 2nd battery on made hal realise it wasn't on AC power
[04:52] <Robot101> Treenaks: sleeping and removing the battery when it was asleep didn't confuse it though
[04:52] <Robot101> it must be a more complicated situation, like sleeping when on AC power and charging the 2nd battery, and removing one or the other or both
[04:52] <infinity> dilinger : If you order it with "IBM Wireless", it'll be atheros, if you order it with "Intel Wireless", it'll be ipw2200.  Pick which set of bugs you're more happy with dealing with.
[04:53] <Robot101> but I'm on the train so no AC power handy :)
[04:53] <HrdwrBoB> infinity: or you could use cisco like me and have it use eth1 on boot, then eth2 after suspend/resume
[04:54] <infinity> HrdwrBoB : Neat.
[04:56] <koke> Treenaks, spacey it's ok to meet at 15:30 at the wetherspoons ?
[04:57] <koke> http://www.heathrowairport.com/assets/B2CPortal/Static Files/HeathrowT4map.pdf <-- page 3 (25)
[04:58] <HrdwrBoB> now, nobody look like terrorists.
[04:59] <Diziet> The requested URL /assets/B2CPortal/StaticFiles/HeathrowT4map.pdf was not found on this server
[05:00] <Simira> hrmf.. I think one of my mice has run off!
[05:01] <Simira> alternatively, I put in on it's appropriate place last time i used it...
[05:01] <Simira> *packing for UBZ*
[05:02] <koke> Diziet: Static Files
[05:03] <koke> maybe Static%20Files
[05:05] <Simira> but I do think the cat ate my usb hub...
[05:05] <Diziet> Are we really supposed to have that map ?  You know it's information that might be useful to a trrrist.
[05:06] <carstenh> he could also use maps.google.com
[05:06] <HrdwrBoB> don't get caught with a laptop which has a pdf of the airport on it
[05:08] <HWolf> oh my, windows is fun. :)
[05:09] <pitti> doko: here?
[05:12] <doko> pitti: pong
[05:13] <pitti> doko: not that you would/should do it now, but what's the status of the zope update? could you make sense of the patch after the last mail?
[05:13] <koke> HrdwrBoB: you can get maps of the airport like that in the terminal
[05:13] <koke> I have one of these at home
[05:13] <koke> don't be too paranoid :)
[05:14] <doko> pitti: yes, I do have a patch, which is reduced again. well, on my todo list ...
[05:14] <HrdwrBoB> koke: haha but at the same time dont' underestimate the cracktastic nature of airport security
[05:20] <the--dud> hi folks
[05:20] <the--dud> how's everyone?
[05:21] <Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: your hidden identity?
[05:21] <Mithrandir> s/hidden/secret/
[05:21] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, Trying to hide from scary Seveas
[05:31] <\sh> infinity: amd64 buildd -> he following packages have unmet dependencies: debhelper: Depends: po-debconf but it is not going to be installed
[05:36] <Simira> Mithrandir : go make dinner!
[05:37] <infinity> \sh : Yeah, yeah.  New release + lots of syncs = fun.
[05:39] <\sh> infinity: k...I'm forgetting right now everything until after UBZ ;)
[05:39] <\sh> ogra: remind me that I have to change my  bank account after I'm back in .de
[05:40] <ogra> will do :)
[05:40] <CarlFK> should portmap be running before trying to mount nfs?
[05:40] <the--dud> I'm gonna hold out a few weeks or a month before I dare switching from hoary to breezy
[05:41] <bob2> yes
[05:41] <CarlFK> and, what package provides nfs client/mount support?
[05:41] <\sh> ogra: I just called this online banking center...and asked where is my bloody money...because others at the same bank have it already..I think they want to fck with me ... 
[05:47] <CarlFK> I guess nfs client is installed as part of the kernel.  so... if you should have portmapper running, and the ubuntu policy is no open ports, shouln't nfs mounting be removed from the base install?
[05:49] <nailbiter> CarlFK: The portmapper is needed on the client only to implement stateful locking. Otherwise, you can just mount the NFS filesystem with the 'nolock' option.
[05:50] <CarlFK> nailbiter - no kidding.  thanks.  ok, I'll stop anksing over nfs deps...  
[06:30] <spayne> evening all
[07:07] <Simira> jdub : pling?
[07:07] <andi5> hiho. 50 bounty for the one telling me where to find "hw-detect-full_1.18ubuntu2_all.udeb". my jigdo complains about not finding it :( any hint? thanks in advance!
[07:08] <jdub> Simira: plong ;)
[07:08] <spayne> hey jdub
[07:09] <Simira> jdub : is Ubuntu Love Day anything interesting for me as a long time Ubuntu-fan-and-contributor? (or: "Can I skip all that stuff and go to the zoo instead?")
[07:09] <jdub> Simira: yeah, i think it'll be pretty cool
[07:09] <jdub> Simira: maybe the worshops in the afternoon would be more interesting for you
[07:09] <Simira> jdub : oh. Thanks. Or something. 
[07:09] <jdub> Simira: if you're interested in the community/marketing one
[07:10] <Simira> jdub : yes, I thought so too
[07:10] <Simira> well, I'll have a look at it. 
[07:10] <jdub> zoo in the morning, ubuntu marketing in the afternoon? :)
[07:10] <Simira> or zoo next Sunday, then we can bring some other people as well...
[07:10] <Simira> I guess more than Mithrandir wants to say hi to the penguins.
[07:10] <Mithrandir> you'll have a variety of geeks to look at, you're sure you need to go to the zoo?
[07:11] <Mithrandir> oh yeah, we _have_ to say hi to any penguins.
[07:12] <jsgotangco> the love day itself would probably be like a zoo
[07:12] <jsgotangco> hehe
[07:12] <jsgotangco> because of the various personalities involved
[07:24] <azeem> andi5: what bounty?
[07:25] <andi5> azeem: well, i am just trying to get a ubuntu iso image with jigdo (need for amd64+i386), but one package is missing (see above)
[07:25] <azeem> andi5: I think history indicates that Ubuntu really does care about users, including potentionally frustrated ones
[07:27] <andi5> azeem: then i seem to tend to ask my questions here somehow incorrectly, because i asked this question 5 times before (mostly #ubuntu), but have not heard of anything helping me ;(
[07:27] <infinity> andi5 : That package got mistakenly moved around in the archive.
[07:27] <lamont> dvips -o make.ps make.dvi
[07:27] <lamont> This is dvips(k) 5.95a Copyright 2005 Radical Eye Software (www.radicaleye.com)
[07:27] <lamont> dvips: ! DVI file can't be opened.
[07:27] <lamont> bad make
[07:29] <infinity> andi5 : Though, wait?... What version are you trying to jigdo?... The hw-detect in breezy is much newer than that.
[07:30] <andi5> infinity: how can i determine that?
[07:30] <andi5> infinity: Generated on Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:25:40 +0100
[07:30] <infinity> andi5 : It give you the CD label when it first starts the process.
[07:30] <infinity> s/give/gives/
[07:31] <azeem> infinity: it's from ddetect
[07:31] <azeem> hw-detect-full, that is
[07:31] <andi5> maybe just Ubuntu 5.10 "Breezy Badger" - Release amd64?
[07:31] <infinity> azeem : Oh, my mistake.
[07:31] <andi5> but same problem with i386
[07:31] <azeem> and it's not on archive, but google cache has it, as well as the various .lits files
[07:31] <azeem> eh, .list
[07:31] <infinity> In that case, it probably fell victim to the same accidental move that hwdetect did.
[07:32] <infinity> Looks "in the archive" to me.  Just (possibly) the wrong component.
[07:32] <infinity> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/d/ddetect/hw-detect-full_1.18ubuntu2_all.udeb
[07:32] <andi5> infinity: oh, in the universe... funny :)
[07:33] <infinity> Kamion : Did hw-detect-full accidentally get shuffled around from one component to another?
[07:33] <azeem> ah, so the jigdo files list it in main
[07:33] <andi5> infinity: i did not even think that, so i did not check it :)
[07:33] <infinity> andi5 : I assume your jigdo log claims it was trying to get it from main?
[07:33] <andi5> infinity: definitely
[07:33] <infinity> Alright.  This is a know "oops", though we only knew we'd broken another package (hw-detect)... Makes sense that both got broken at the same time.  <sigh>
[07:34] <andi5> infinity: so i can change main to universe? can you do that too, please? ;)
[07:34] <infinity> Kamion : jigdo's looking for it in main, archive has it in universe.
[07:34] <infinity> andi5 : We'll move the file back where it belongs.
[07:34] <andi5> infinity: or that way :)
[07:34] <infinity> andi5 : But to make jigdo happy, you can just download the .deb, toss it in a directory, and tell it to scan that dir.
[07:34] <andi5> thanks you guys, sorry for becoming frustrated =)
[07:38] <Kamion> infinity: damnit. fixed, I think. I hate this cross-component symlink stuff
[07:39] <Kamion> (will propagate to mirrors within a bit over half an hour)
[07:40] <infinity> Kamion : Did any other installer components jump around when we started syncing? :)
[07:40] <Kamion> it wasn't a sync thing, it was me trying to arrange for the right things to end up in dapper and inadvertently screwing with breezy
[07:40] <infinity> Oops.
[07:40] <Kamion> I'll remove hw-detect-full from dapper instead - it's no longer needed
[07:43] <andi5> Kamion: lol, then i will remove that pkg right after installation ;)
[07:43] <Kamion> ok, looks vaguely sane now
[07:43] <infinity> andi5 : It's not an installed package, it's an installer component.
[07:44] <Kamion> it's no longer needed IN DAPPER
[07:44] <Kamion> you need it in breezy
[07:44] <Kamion> (to make the installer work)
[07:44] <andi5> Kamion: well, so dapper < breezy? sorry; will shut up now
[07:44] <Kamion> andi5: dapper > breezy
[07:45] <Kamion> version-wise anyway
[07:45] <andi5> yes. ack
[07:45] <Kamion> sorry for the screwup, hope it's fixed now, if not somebody please mail me
[07:46] <sivang> anybody know what to do with ERROR 2010 on a T43/p think pad ? :) (It suggests something about a fimrware upgrade) 
[07:47] <infinity> In what context?
[07:47] <infinity> BIOS/POST, or some kernel driver, or...?
[07:48] <sivang> infinity: BIOS/POST
[07:48] <infinity> Oh, it's cause you got the fancy 7200RPM drive.
[07:48] <sivang> infinity: I can pm you if that ok?
[07:53] <spayne> has anyone used/tried MoL?
[07:54] <jpetso> ...ok, now for the newlyswitched ones
[07:54] <jpetso> i'm trying to compile some autotools stuff that I had compiling on Gentoo before, and it doesn't work yet in Ubuntu
[07:54] <jpetso> it says (extract):
[07:55] <jpetso> configure.in: 8: automake requires `AM_PROG_LEX', not `AC_PROG_LEX'
[07:55] <jpetso> automake: examples/fact/Makefile.am: lex source seen but `AC_DECL_YYTEXT' not in `configure.in'
[07:55] <jpetso> (end quote)
[07:58] <zul> jpetso: check google
[07:58] <jpetso> zul: I just tried
[08:24] <Simira> how is the best way to get from the airport in Montreal to Holiday Inn?
[08:24] <Treenaks> Simira: there's a shuttle
[08:24] <\sh> Simira: there is a shuttle
[08:25] <Treenaks> :)
[08:25] <jdub> Simira: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero
[08:25] <Treenaks> 1- Take the shuttle to the city center terminal. You can ask the driver for the minibus to the hotels (It's free). The price is $11.50 per person.
[08:25] <jdub> Simira: make sure you ask for 'holiday inn select'
[08:28] <\sh> ok...going to bed...
[08:28] <\sh> cu tomorrow in .ca 
[08:31] <spayne> hey sabdfl
[08:31] <sabdfl> howddy
[08:32] <highvoltage> doko: ogra says you're mr OOo :)
[08:33] <pitti> flee, doko, flee!
[08:33] <Simira> sabdfl :) How's Montreal?
[08:33] <sabdfl> Simira: dunno. i'm in pretoria :-)
[08:34] <ogra> doko, highvoltage wants to add custom icons to ooo for edubuntu during dapper
[08:34] <Simira> sabdfl : oh. So you're one of the late ones, eh? Well, we're off from Oslo soon.
[08:34] <highvoltage> doko: yes, the author of gartoon said he'll draw up some OOo icons for edubuntu.
[08:34] <sabdfl> Simira: well. i was in montreal yesterday
[08:34] <sabdfl> and will be there tomorrow morning ;-)
[08:35] <highvoltage> sabdfl: don't you get tired of flying?
[08:35] <pitti> sabdfl: the world is your's :-)
[08:35] <sabdfl> highvoltage: on occasion. i bring a book.
[08:35] <highvoltage> :)
[08:37] <Simira> sabdfl : don't you ever feel like staying home for the rest of your life? Wherever that is...
[08:39] <ogra> ...world tramp :)
[08:40] <Simira> C1?
[08:40] <ogra> Simira, the plane
[08:40] <Simira> ah, yes
[08:41] <Simira> mdz : do you do administrative UBZ-things? Or else, who is that?
[08:41] <mdz> Simira: depends. what is the issue?
[08:43] <Simira> mdz : I just wonder if there's anywhere I can help out, since I don't have much work to tend to in particularly. Anything I can do that doesn't include obligations after the conference...
[08:44] <Simira> mdz : or is that a "talk to Silbs"-thing? ;p
[08:50] <spayne> Canonical 1?
[08:50] <jdub> spayne: mark's jet
[08:50] <jdub> Simira: just asking jane for you now
[08:50] <mdz> Simira: are you here in montreal?
[08:51] <Simira> mdz : nope. Arriving tomorrow at 4.20pm
[08:52] <jdub> Simira: ok, i asked claire too - she'll think about it for you :)
[08:52] <jdub> Simira: thanks for offering
[08:52] <Simira> jdub : ok, thanks. Np, I just like to feel useful :)
[08:52] <lamont> jdub: you at marks?
[08:52] <jdub> lamont: i'm in quebecistan!
[08:52] <lamont> heh
[08:52] <ogra> lamont, he's locked in the cellar with the others :)
[08:53] <highvoltage> ogra: extreme programming?
[08:53] <Simira> jdub : so, is it still BZ?
[08:53] <ogra> highvoltage, extree scheduling rather
[08:55] <TiMiDo> is it posible to used drapper now?
[08:55] <Simira> Treenaks : when do you land? About 17-something, you said?
[08:55] <Simira> TiMiDo : not recomendable, no
[08:55] <TiMiDo> oh ic
[08:56] <Treenaks> Simira: 19:25
[08:56] <Treenaks> Simira: takeoff 17:25 from Heathrow
[08:57] <Simira> right
[08:57] <Treenaks> Simira: I'm on a flight with koke and Mez (Mev?)
[08:58] <spayne> Treenaks, it is Mez
[08:58] <jdub> Simira: it's brisk, but not BZ
[08:58] <Mithrandir> TiMiDo: it haven't blown up for me yet, but I wouldn't recommend it.
[09:00] <Simira> jdub : well, I've packed a warm sweather. It should do.
[09:00] <dredg> come to california :) nice weather :)
[09:00] <dredg> actually yeah, bring ubz to me :)
[09:02] <Treenaks> dredg: then it wouldn't be bz anymore, would it
[09:02] <dredg> details, details
[09:05] <JanC> california would be a cheap conference, half of the people wouldn't (want to/be allowed to) get there  ;)
[09:05] <spayne> JanC: i hope it is London next time
[09:06] <spayne> JanC: then i may stand a chance of going
[09:06] <Treenaks> spayne: Amsterdam!
[09:06] <Treenaks> or Berlin
[09:06] <JanC> Bruges!
[09:06] <JanC> ;)
[09:06] <Treenaks> JanC: that _village_? :)
[09:06] <spayne> JanC: but a name for London
[09:06] <spayne> UGC
[09:06] <spayne> Ubuntu goes Cocney :)
[09:06] <JanC> Treenaks: villages are nice (and Bruges was a city before A'dam was)
[09:07] <dredg> i would have gone to ubz, but it clashes with my training schedule
[09:07] <Treenaks> dredg: you're a professional wrestler?
[09:07] <dredg> which is really annoying cos not only do i have to skip ubz, i'm not in ireland for mako's visit
[09:07] <dredg> Treenaks: not quite...
[09:08] <Treenaks> Mr Brugesmans ;)
[09:08] <dredg> actually, hold a conference in ireland :) the weather sucks, it's always raining. it can be ubuntu wet n wild ;)
[09:09] <Treenaks> dredg: how about Ubuntu High & Dry
[09:11] <tritium> JanC, I've been told that there will be no Ubuntu conferences in the U.S.
[09:12] <JanC> tritium: that's what I thought too (it wouldn't be very good for the reasons I gave)
[09:13] <spayne> tritium, why?
[09:14] <tritium> spayne, I don't fully understand the reasons
[09:15] <JanC> spayne: legal issues with security software, reverse engineering, privacy, ...
[09:15] <ogra> jdub, indeed its below zero ...
[09:15] <ogra> jdub, its the -1 floor
[09:16] <spayne> JanC: could there be on in jolly old England
[09:16] <JanC> spayne: Europe is fine AFAIK  :)
[09:16] <highvoltage> JanC: africa? ;)
[09:16] <Riddell> spayne: you missed that
[09:17] <Riddell> launchpad have met in south africa
[09:17] <JanC> highvoltage: why not?
[09:17] <spayne> Riddell, did i?
[09:17] <JanC> except for war zones, I guess  ;-)
[09:17] <jdub> ogra: it's -1 atm?
[09:18] <highvoltage> Riddell: i think i remember that. since then there still hasn't been so much people in the pool at work at the same time :)
[09:18] <spayne> Ubuntu is good shit man!
[09:19] <jdub> it's like 4 degrees
[09:19] <jdub> not -1
[09:19] <jdub> lies
[09:21] <tritium> 62 F here
[09:23] <rob^^^> Heya all, can anyone think as to why it wouldn't be good to patch dia to be anti-aliased by default?
[09:23] <rob^^^> it's a selectable menu option, but it seems like it should default to on
[09:26] <Keybuk> jdub: 6C according to weatherapp
[09:26] <jdub> mine says 4 for montreal-est
[09:27] <seb128> 5 according to my gweather
[09:28] <pitti> -5 according to my feet
[09:31] <JanC> 16C here in Bruges (and it's already 21h30 now), one starts to think summer is doing an interim job while autumn is away here...
[09:35] <jbailey> When looking at the temp in gweather, be sure to look at the "Feels like" temperature.
[09:35] <jbailey> It accounts for humidity and windchill.
[09:36] <Simira> jbailey : is Toronto far from Montreal?
[09:36] <tritium> jbailey, humidity is a non-issue here in the desert ;)
[09:37] <jbailey> Simira: It depends.  I've done that distance of a drive to go for dinner before.
[09:38] <Simira> jbailey : so, driving in somewhat decent speed, how long?
[09:38] <jbailey> Simira: Simira 4.5 to 5 hours.
[09:38] <jbailey> Assuming daytime.
[09:38] <dieman> its a happy 59F/15C here.
[09:38] <jbailey> If at night with good music, I've done it in about 4.
[09:38] <Simira> ok
[09:40] <jbailey> Simira: If you're looking to see things in the area, I'd honestly not bother with Toronto.  The eastern townships are much cooler small villages, and if you're going to spend all day driving, you can get to the atlantic fishing provinces.
[09:40] <jbailey> Boston is about the same distance if your'e willing to travel to the US.
[09:41] <Simira> jbailey : well, I literally AM from one small fishing province in Norway, so I might just skip that :p
[09:41] <Simira> guess I'll mostly concentrate on Montreal
[09:41] <sivang> jbailey: any special requirement for entering the US from .ca ?
[09:42] <tseng> its easy if you are canadian
[09:42] <dieman> yeah
[09:42] <tseng> otherwise, good luck
[09:42] <dieman> dont come if your not a canadian :)
[09:42] <Mithrandir> Simira: but you know, it will all be mirrored, since it's on the other side of the ocean. :-P
[09:42] <jbailey> Simira: Ah. =)  There's alot to see in Montral. =)
[09:42] <dieman> and if you aren't from a visa waiver country, dont bother.
[09:42] <jbailey> sivang: It's entirely done by country of citizenship
[09:42] <dieman> if you are, be sure you have a passport and no problem with potential searches
[09:42] <Simira> jbailey : do your fish swim backwards?
[09:43] <Mithrandir> they're all left-finned
[09:43] <dieman> do they do US*VISIT for visa waiver countries now?
[09:43] <jbailey> Simira: Nah.  I'm vegan, so fish don't feel the need to back away from me slowly ;)
[09:43] <dieman> yeah, it does
[09:44] <dieman> sivang: the happy US customs people will also take digital fingerprints and a photo
[09:44] <dieman> unless your a canadian or a mexican or some other small categories (under 14, over 79)
[09:44] <dieman> (for age)
[09:44] <tritium> dieman, where are you living?
[09:44] <Mithrandir> uhm, they don't fingerprint people over the age of 79?
[09:45] <dieman> Mithrandir: yeah, i don't quite get it either
[09:45] <dieman> tritium: im in minneapolis, mn, usa
[09:45] <tritium> Ah, that's right.
[09:45] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Sounds like a *great* excuse for fake id. =)
[09:45] <jbailey> Hey, my LP account grew a little hammer emblem.
[09:46] <dieman> sivang: left index, right index, and a photo
[09:46] <Simira> so, if I go to the US, I get my portrait taken? Cool.
[09:47] <dredg> nah they're using webcams now
[09:47] <dieman> yeah
[09:47] <dieman> its like a quickcam
[09:47] <pitti> jbailey: still missing the sickle?
[09:47] <jbailey> dredg: Do I have to strip in front of it?
[09:47] <jbailey> pitti: sickle?
[09:47] <Keybuk> maybe the TB should get a sickle
[09:47] <dieman> brazil took my fingerprint and a photo last time i was there
[09:47] <dieman> china doesn't even bother
[09:47] <jbailey> pitti: I'm only a member of Ubuntu Core Development Team and Ubuntu Members
[09:47] <dredg> jbailey: i didn't, and they let me in...
[09:47] <pitti> jbailey: me too
[09:47] <Keybuk> jbailey: you should have a hammer and an ubuntu logo then
[09:48] <dredg> but you do whatever you feel you have to
[09:48] <pitti> jbailey: oh, I'm not even in members, only in German translators
[09:48] <Mithrandir> jbailey: I think both of us might have a bit of trouble to pass as < 14 or > 79 years old..
[09:48] <jbailey> pitti: You have two launchpad accounts, you should merge them.
[09:48] <jbailey> Mithrandir: Sorry, which both?
[09:48] <Mithrandir> jbailey: you and me. :-P
[09:48] <jbailey> Keybuk: Right. =)
[09:49] <jbailey> Mithrandir: True.  I can still pass for 17, though.
[09:49] <Mithrandir> jbailey: as in, I don't think getting a fake ID is an option for either of us.
[09:49] <jbailey> *sigh*
[09:49] <Mithrandir> jbailey: you can? hhaha.
[09:49] <jbailey> Yeah.  Between shaving, the long hair, and it's worse since getting the blue streeks.
[09:50] <dieman> hahah
[09:50] <jbailey> Of course, I don't know how they ignore the silver in my hair, but hey.
[09:50] <dieman> jbailey is canadian so he doesn't have to do us-visit
[09:50] <dieman> just those outside of the 53 states :)
[09:50] <dieman> (well, iraqis do still, but 53 sounds right.)
[09:50] <dieman> (the other two being mexico and canada <j/k>)
[09:51] <zul> you need a passport to visit the us soon from canada
[09:51] <dieman> like 2006 or 2007?
[09:51] <dieman> i know we need passports to go to parts of the carribean and get back up
[09:51] <dieman> ok
[09:51] <dieman> rather
[09:51] <dieman> going on a cruise next year
[09:52] <zul> not when we went to the dominican republic
[09:52] <jbailey> I've tried calling a couple of cruise lines and can't find one that will do vegan food.  So sad.
[09:52] <dieman> oh god
[09:52] <dieman> people in visa waiver countries must also have 'machine redable passports'
[09:53] <dieman> ie: with barcode.
[09:53] <dredg> yes, yes they must
[09:53] <dredg> all irish ones issued in the last few years are machine readable
[09:53] <dieman> anything issued after 10/26/05 must have digital photographs printed on the page or integrated chips
[09:54] <dredg> new ones are weird though. the back page (machine readable part) is plastic
[09:54] <dieman> 10/26/06 and on requires biometrics
[09:54] <dieman> dredg: yeah, ours are like that too
[09:54] <dieman> (us passports)
[09:54] <dieman> super-laminated
[09:54] <Mithrandir> mine is machine-readable, but no barcode.
[09:54] <Mithrandir> just the field at the bottom of it.
[09:54] <dredg> Mithrandir: likewise
[09:55] <dieman> ahh
[09:55] <dieman> zul: its required for the cruises by jan 1, 2008
[09:55] <dieman> zul: but not yet
[09:55] <zul> oh that sucks
[09:56] <dieman> dec 31 2006 is when its required for all air or sea to/from canada, mexico, central and south america. where us citizens will ahve to have a passport to get back to the usa
[09:56] <dieman> dec 31 2007 for all land/air/sea trvel
[09:56] <dieman> it *used* to be by dec 31, 2005
[09:56] <dieman> for part of it
[09:56] <Mithrandir> zul: uhm, it sucks that you have to have a passport?  I think requiring passports is fine.
[09:57] <dieman> requiring passport for re-entry from canada didn't used to be required
[09:57] <tritium> Mithrandir++
[09:58] <zul> Mithrandir: when i was kid i lived next to washington state and we can just drive down for the day and come back all you need is a driver license
[09:59] <Mithrandir> zul: why is a driver's licence so much better than a passport?
[09:59] <JanC> hm, in Belgium everyone 12yo & up has an ID card that you have to carry with you  :)
[10:00] <Keybuk> Belgium has the only fully lit motorway network in the world ...
[10:00] <zul> Mithrandir: convience
[10:00] <JanC> Keybuk: not fully lit, but large parts are lit yes
[10:00] <Keybuk> oh, that was the only interesting fact about Belgium I knew
[10:01] <Keybuk> and it was wrong
[10:01] <HiddenWolf> Keybuk, they've got the wackyest institutional system in western europe, how about that?
[10:01] <JanC> well, you can see Belgium from space at night
[10:04] <Mithrandir> zul: yeah, a passport is _so_ inconvenient. :-P
[10:04] <JanC> Keybuk: and it was in Belgium that BillG got "entart"  :)
[10:05] <Keybuk> JanC: but would you want to?
[10:05] <JanC> Keybuk: want to see it from space?
[10:05] <zul> Mithrandir: :P
[10:05] <dredg> for the purposes of controlling the google laser death satellites, seeing things from space is useful
[10:23] <ivoks> so everybody is in airplane now :)
[10:23] <zyga> flying at night is no fun
[10:23] <zyga> but fyling at night over atlantic is uber boring
[10:26] <ivoks> i was never in any kind of airplane :)
[10:27] <zyga> ivoks: boring, no network, and the nice laydy brings drinks
[10:27] <the--dud> UBZ should have been in Norway... even colder than canada
[10:27] <the--dud> and lots cooler hehe
[10:27] <ivoks> :)
[10:27] <ivoks> and closer
[10:27] <zyga> U100% should be in Poland, free vodka!
[10:28] <ivoks> ah, well
[10:28] <ivoks> next time for us who have to pay their education :)
[10:28] <JaneW> or South Africa - Ubuntu Indaba
[10:28] <ivoks> JaneW: hello :)
[10:28] <ivoks> JaneW: you aren't on UBZ?
[10:29] <zyga> ivoks: what's the education part related to?
[10:29] <ivoks> zyga: faculty
[10:29] <ivoks> zyga: 1000euros per year... :/
[10:29] <JaneW> ivoks: yes I am
[10:30] <JaneW> hi
[10:30] <zyga> I have to pay 2750 a year :/
[10:30] <ivoks> it's not that much, but when you go for summer trip and have plans for snowboarding in france...
[10:30] <ivoks> JaneW: allready there? :)
[10:30] <JaneW> ivoks: yes, arrived Wednesday pm
[10:30] <ivoks> nice
[10:31] <ivoks> JaneW: i was surprised seeing you here :) didn't think you would come few days eariler
[10:32] <ivoks> i'm so happy ubuntu-hr.org is doing ok...
[10:32] <JaneW> we are doing planning and scheduling etc, we had to come early
[10:32] <ivoks> last 4 days i'm only working on that...
[10:32] <ivoks> JaneW: right...
[10:33] <JanC> hm, FOSDEM 2006 will be February 25th & 26th...
[10:33] <ivoks> where?
[10:33] <ivoks> brussels
[10:33] <JanC> FOSDEM is always in Brussels :)
[10:34] <ivoks> :))
[10:34] <JanC> Elsene/Ixelles to be exact
[10:34] <JaneW> ok I am going to attempt to upgrade to breezy - wish me luck!
[10:34] <ivoks> JaneW: you won't need it :)
[10:34] <ivoks> JaneW: it will go smoothly
[10:34] <ivoks> ;)
[10:35] <JanC> JaneW: everybody here is already waiting to upgrade to dapper!  ;)
[10:35] <ivoks> i was running dapper for few days :)
[10:35] <JaneW> JanC: heh I am cautious!
[10:35] <ivoks> then downgraded back :)
[10:36] <the--dud> JaneW, let me know how it goes, I'm sort of holding back upgrading hehe
[10:37] <ivoks> the--dud: you have something fancy? 
[10:37] <ivoks> i did upgrade on 6 of my servers
[10:37] <JanC> the--dud: upgrading to breezy won't get any better or worse by waiting
[10:37] <ivoks> without a problem and downtime
[10:38] <the--dud> I just remember that the warty->hoary transition got a bit better after a little while
[10:38] <JanC> I'm running breezy for > 6 months now  :)
[10:38] <ivoks> urgh... i'm getting two copies of every mail sent to dapper-changes
[10:39] <infinity> Lucky you.
[10:39] <Amaranth> the--dud: that isn't really possible
[10:39] <JanC> ivoks: don't drink that much then you won't see it twice!  :)
[10:39] <ivoks> it's misconfigured exim at rince.africaninspace.com :/
[10:40] <ivoks> JanC: i'm afraid it's not me
[10:42] <JaneW> the--dud: will do - had a hiccough already - had a broken package...
[10:43] <ivoks> somebody used backports :)
[10:44] <ivoks> anyway... those of you who are on UBZ I hope you'll have great time
[10:44] <ivoks> and others... well... ugh :)
[10:44] <ivoks> see you!
[10:47] <elmo> glade-2 (2.10.0-2/2.12.0-0ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> gimp-print (4.2.7-10/4.2.7-10): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> libgcrypt (1.1.12-8/1.1.12-8ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> libgcrypt7 (1.1.90-9/1.1.90-9ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> lsb-release (1.4-8/1.4-8ubuntu3): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> libassetml (1.2.1-1/1.2.1-1): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> busybox-cvs (20040623-1/20040623-1ubuntu22): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> di-packages-build (0.7/0.7ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> imlib+png2 (1.9.14-16.2/1.9.14-16.2ubuntu4): in main - skipping.
[10:47] <elmo> the archive scripts want to remove all them - can anyone who knows about the packages comment?
[10:47] <infinity> Erm.
[10:48] <infinity> Wants to REMOVE them, or demote them?
[10:48] <elmo> remove 
[10:48] <Keybuk> Kamion was saying something about lsb-release the other day
[10:48] <elmo> on the basis that they've been removed from Debian
[10:48] <infinity> lsb-release should still exist in Ubuntu for now.
[10:48] <Keybuk> Debian stuck the file in base-files or something
[10:48] <infinity> Kamion's working out what to do with that one, but we need it right now.
[10:49] <infinity> Good riddance to imlib+png2
[10:49] <seb128> elmo, glade-2 has been renamed to glade
[10:49] <infinity> elmo : The older libgcrypts can go the heck away too, if stuff starts to FTBFS or become uninstallible, I'll just fix it.
[10:50] <elmo> seb128: i.e. it can go away?  btw, 'glade' is only in universe
[10:50] <ogra> hmm, gcompris used to use libassetml-dev
[10:51] <seb128> elmo, next "glade" upload will ship the same binaries, maybe we can wait on this one to trash glade-2 ?
[10:51] <elmo> seb128: sure, no prob
[10:52] <ogra> elmo, can you sync gcompris 7.0.3-2 from debian, then libassetml can go (at least from my (edubuntu) POV)
[10:53] <ogra> (ok to override ubuntu changes)
[10:53] <seb128> elmo, while you are processing packages could you promote libnautilus-burn3 to main (soname change) so rhythmbox can build again?
[10:53] <elmo> oh, no, the return of a separate trashapplet
[10:53] <infinity> elmo : Oh, alright.  lsb-release sorted.  You can just ignore it for now, it'll work itself out later when we merge the lsb source package, which will start building the lsb-release binary, thus making the lsb-release source obsolete at that time.
[10:54] <seb128> elmo, blacklist it, Debian guys did that because trashapplet is a GNOME 2.10 feature and Sarge has 2.8 ...
[10:55] <Amaranth> what replaces gimp-print?
[10:56] <infinity> elmo : So, to summarize the ones I know about: kill libgcrypt*, kill imlib+png2, ignore lsb-release for now.
[10:57] <elmo> infinity: ok
[10:58] <elmo> Amaranth: gutenprint, according to the Debian removal
[10:58] <Amaranth> ooh, gutenprint rc1
[10:59] <Amaranth> but debian has a cvs snapshot
[11:00] <infinity> elmo : Erk, I just realised we still have php3 in universe.  Given that I am, effectively, upstream for php3, and I refuse to support it anymore, perhaps we should remove it? ;)
[11:00] <infinity> elmo : It got punted from sid quite a while ago.
[11:00] <elmo> ogra: done
[11:00] <ogra> thanks
[11:00] <Simira> see you tomorrow!
[11:00] <elmo> infinity: no, we don't
[11:00] <ogra> Simira, have a good flight
[11:00] <elmo> not on jackass anyway
[11:01] <elmo> I only just fixed the "remove things removed from Debian" script ...
[11:01] <mdz> Keybuk: it's not infeasible that future kernels will break compatibility with udev again
[11:01] <ogra> Simira, and dont forget tollef 
[11:01] <Simira> ogra : I'll do my best to remember
[11:01] <mdz> Keybuk: if we're to support future kernels on dapper, we'll need to do it by shipping newer userland tools anyway
[11:01] <Keybuk> mdz: currently, we have to iterate /sys, figure out what looks like a device, then construct a "uevent" that captures all of the meta-data we found and post that back into ourselves to cause the creation of the /dev thing and the hotplug kick
[11:02] <Keybuk> obviously this is wildly unreliable, as the kernel often doesn't put all the information into /sys that it should (input subsystem esp.)
[11:02] <infinity> elmo : Ahh.  Right.  Well, we did until just now, then. :)
[11:02] <Keybuk> and we may not construct the same uevent the kernel would
[11:02] <infinity> elmo : Wish I had noticed before we shipped it with breezy.  Oh well.
[11:02] <mdz> Keybuk: is this what's in breezy, or your new stuff?
[11:02] <Keybuk> one of the changes in that branch is a file you can touch which causes the kernel to reissue the uevent itself ... so we can get rid of all that and just have a "we missed that, send it again" touch
[11:02] <Keybuk> mdz: in breezy
[11:03] <mdz> Keybuk: then it may be more complex, but it's also well-tested
[11:03] <Keybuk> it's also well-known-broken
[11:03] <infinity> Well tested, and known to be broken.
[11:03] <Keybuk> cf. we can't hotplug input devices
[11:04] <Keybuk> s/hot/cold/
[11:04] <infinity> As for "supporting people who want to run kernel 2.8.24 on dapper", I don't think that's worth caring about.  Hardcore server guys who want shiny new kernels on old stable releases just build monolithic kernels and sidestep most issues.
[11:04] <infinity> But I agree that current udev/hotplug is a mess and known broken.
[11:05] <Keybuk> infinity: true... it's not a major concern, but we'd actually be talking about 2.6.15 :p
[11:05] <Keybuk> being potentially incompatible with the userland for 14
[11:05] <infinity> Well, the changes going into 2.6.15 look worthwhile to me.  Iff they can be safely backported and made to work.
[11:05] <JaneW> rebooting
[11:06] <infinity> But that's not from a "let users upgrade" perspective, just from a "stuff's hideously broken right now" perspective.
[11:06] <Keybuk> right
[11:06] <infinity> I do a little dance every time my machine boots, to be honest. :)
[11:06] <Keybuk> from just a "it'd let us actually load the right module for an input device" point of view, it's quite handy
[11:06] <BenC> thing is, if we do the udev stuff for dapper, we might aswell do 2.6.15
[11:06] <elmo> seb128: done
[11:06] <seb128> elmo, thanks
[11:06] <infinity> BenC : You figure that'll be the biggest subsystem change in 2.6.15?
[11:06] <BenC> the udev issue was the onlyt thing keeping me from wanting 2.6.15
[11:07] <BenC> infinity: the only one that will potentially cause usespacr incompatibilities
[11:07] <Keybuk> BenC: the upcoming changes for it?
[11:07] <BenC> Keybuk: yeah
[11:07] <infinity> Shock and horror, you mean we aren't getting inotify breakage anymore?
[11:07] <Keybuk> it's an interesting one, I certainly wouldn't want to land it late in the process, because it will break a couple of things (which we think we already know about)
[11:08] <Keybuk> but this early would work just as well as for dapper+1 ... and given how much it'll fix, I think it's worth it for dapper
[11:08] <infinity> If that's really the only imcompatible thing 2.6.15 will do to us, perhaps we should backport it now, and keep an archive with rolling updates on the way to 2.6.15...
[11:08] <infinity> And if 2.6.15 is on time, and not broken...
[11:08] <Keybuk> is there a time for 15 ?
[11:09] <BenC> from what Linus says, I figure 2 months
[11:09] <infinity> That's pushing it.
[11:09] <BenC> he's trying to hit a timeline
[11:09] <BenC> most stuff will be in the first two weeks
[11:09] <BenC> he wont take any major changes after that
[11:09] <infinity> Unless we're tracking Linus's road-to-2.6.15 branch.
[11:09] <BenC> firs two weeks is open season, then stabalizing
[11:10] <BenC> we can track 2.6.15 git easily
[11:10] <Amaranth> we don't want another 2.6.11 thing though
[11:10] <infinity> BenC : Can we track both, including backporting this particular thing to 2.6.14, so we have a pair of kernels to evaluate in 2 months?
[11:11] <infinity> BenC : Then we can just drop the one we like the least.
[11:11] <Keybuk> hmm... on that branch; the uevent stuff would be nice, because it basically allows us to throw away the unreliable bits of udev and just let the kernel do it ... it'd be a huge boost in boot speed and reliability
[11:11] <Keybuk> basically all the races and dropped events and crap we have in breezy go away
[11:11] <jbailey> Keybuk: You talking about greg's driver core patch to lkml today?
[11:11] <Keybuk> jbailey: yeah
[11:11] <BenC> we can start out pulling in the changes to our 2.6.14
[11:11] <BenC> if things get hairy (lots of conflicts, and too much backporting) then we may end up going to 2.6.15 anyway
[11:12] <Keybuk> the input device changes would allow us to actually coldplug input devices, and more fun, hotplug them too (and enable the g-v-m "I plugged a tablet in, start inkscape" support)
[11:12] <Keybuk> and means all the /dev/input/* missing crap we have in breezy goes away
[11:12] <infinity> BenC : Can we push 2.6.14 to main right after UBZ?
[11:13] <Keybuk> the "nested class" stuff I don't really care about, it's just a dep of the input stuff -- though it has a slight "will make us a bit more fwd-compatible" point
[11:13] <infinity> BenC : I just realised we will already have incompatible userland/kernel stuff in a few days.
[11:13] <infinity> (Basically, as soon as the new X finally builds <stares at jbailey>, we'll start seeing kernel/X drm confusion)
[11:13] <infinity> Unless daniels purposefully left out the drm bump for now, but I doubt it.
[11:14] <infinity> I'll have to poke him about it when he wakes up.
[11:14] <BenC> I think after UBZ, I'll have a better idea of how 2.6.14 (and maybe 2.6.15) will affect userland, and can coordinate a move to main a lot easier
[11:16] <BenC> anyone that has packages that can be affected by the kernel and is hosting a bof, should invite or manually sub me :)
[11:17] <Keybuk> doesn't everything theoretically get affected by the kernel? :p
[11:17] <infinity> BenC : Well, X is mostly just counting on us shipping "something >= 2.6.13", so if we do that, it's all good.
[11:17] <BenC> Keybuk: guess I need to learn omnipresense before Sunday :)
[11:18] <Keybuk> is that when you arrive?
[11:18] <infinity> BenC : DRI/DRM stuff got a nice overhaul just as we were stabilising breezy, and it was deemed too intrusive to let in.  Which held us back from updating a bunch of drivers from CVS.
[11:18] <Keybuk> tsk, these latecomers
[11:18] <BenC> Keybuk: arriving Sat night
[11:18] <BenC> Love day is my first official day
[11:18] <Keybuk> ahh
[11:18] <Keybuk> my first official day is Monday
[11:18] <Keybuk> I just snuck in early and am hiding out as a refugee
[11:19] <BenC> hehe
[11:19] <BenC> brb
[11:19] <infinity> I should have gone a day or two early to deal with jet lag, but as it turns out, I didn't think that far ahead.
[11:19] <infinity> Hopefully I'll survive Monday. :)
[11:23] <Keybuk> my new quit message: 
[11:23] <Keybuk> that's perfect :p
[11:23] <spayne> has anyone watched NerdTV?
[11:23] <seb128> jdubTV?
[11:23] <spayne> seb128: ?
[11:24] <spayne> does jdub run a TV station?
[11:24] <seb128> yeah
[11:24] <spayne> :-0
[11:24] <spayne> URL?
[11:28] <spayne> seb128: ??
[11:28] <segfault> heh
[11:29] <segfault> ops
[11:30] <seb128> spayne, I don't have any URL, it was something jdub runned some time ago
[11:30] <spayne> lol
[11:30] <seb128> what is yours?
[11:31] <spayne> for NerdTV?
[11:31] <seb128> yeah
[11:31] <spayne> i was watching Bill Joy and was very very bored :)
[11:31] <spayne> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/nerdtv/shows/
[11:33] <Kamion> elmo: remove di-packages-build
[11:33] <Kamion> elmo: busybox-cvs will go soonish, but I need to merge changes from it to busybox first, so not just yet
[11:36] <seb128> elmo, I've uploaded the glade name change
[11:50] <seb128> http://jaroug.free.fr/debian_installer/ has screenshots of the GTk frontend for the d-i
[11:51] <wasabi_> Oooh!
[11:51] <wasabi_> That is *good* news
[11:51] <wasabi_> And it's pretty, too!
[11:51] <seb128> http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2005/10/msg00406.html
[11:55] <Keybuk> pretty, but not exactly usefeul
[11:55] <Keybuk> cf. #28 ...
[11:56] <seb128> yeah