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| cyphase | hey everyone | 05:05 |
|---|---|---|
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| spayne | hey _null ;) | 05:28 |
| _null | hey spayne ;) | 05:28 |
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| spayne | hey Mez | 08:24 |
| Mez | hey | 08:25 |
| Mez | meeting in 35 mins ? | 08:25 |
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| spayne | Mez: yes | 08:31 |
| spayne | Mez: i thought i better stay and explain myself | 08:31 |
| Mez | spayne, only if you're asked to | 08:32 |
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| spayne | Mez: is a TB meeting don't speak until your asked to? | 08:40 |
| mez_ | ususally, unless you have something to say | 08:41 |
| JanC | spayne: just don't talk when you don't have anything to say about the active topic | 08:42 |
| spayne | JanC: a good rule of thumb | 08:42 |
| JanC | and when you want a specific topic to be discussed, make sure it's on the agenda :) | 08:43 |
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| spayne | hi dholbach | 08:49 |
| dholbach | hi | 08:49 |
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| ivoks | hi all | 08:53 |
| spayne | hi again ivoks | 08:53 |
| pef | hello all | 08:53 |
| Mez | evening mdz, ogra, \sh | 08:54 |
| ivoks | evening? :) | 08:54 |
| spayne | it is evening here in England | 08:54 |
| spayne | good ol' england :-) | 08:54 |
| ivoks | here too :) | 08:54 |
| _null | it's dark and cold outside :/ | 08:55 |
| Mez | oh | 08:55 |
| Mez | sorry | 08:55 |
| Mez | my clock was on evening time :D | 08:55 |
| sivang | hi all | 08:55 |
| Mez | (england time) | 08:55 |
| spayne | Mez: where abouts in jolly england are you? | 08:56 |
| Simira | nowhere? :p | 08:56 |
| Mez | spayne: I'm in Canada atm | 08:56 |
| spayne | Mez: you know what i mean | 08:57 |
| Mez | Birmngham *cringes* | 08:57 |
| siretart | hi folks | 08:57 |
| spayne | Newcastle | 08:57 |
| mdz | Mez: morning | 08:57 |
| slomo | hi everybody :) | 08:57 |
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| Mez | afternoon mdz :P | 08:57 |
| ajmitch | hi | 08:58 |
| Mez | Tue Nov 1 19:59:20 UTC 2005 | 08:59 |
| _null | Tue Nov 1 20:59:37 CET 2005 | 08:59 |
| _null | ;) | 08:59 |
| sivang | so, TB meeting now? | 08:59 |
| mdz | we'll be starting in a few minutes when mjg59 arrives | 08:59 |
| spayne | howdy everyone | 08:59 |
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| sivang | mdz: fine | 09:01 |
| ivoks | hi, my name is ivoks, and I'm alcocholic | 09:04 |
| spayne | where did that come from!?! | 09:04 |
| ivoks | :/ | 09:04 |
| ivoks | wrong channel | 09:04 |
| ivoks | sorry | 09:04 |
| ajmitch | 09:05 | |
| ivoks | looks like montreal splits :/ | 09:05 |
| ajmitch | yep | 09:05 |
| Mez | lol | 09:05 |
| Mez | yeah | 09:05 |
| Mez | it's dodgy | 09:05 |
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| Mez | afternoon | 09:05 |
| ivoks | wb guys | 09:05 |
| spayne | hi sabdfl | 09:05 |
| Mez | afternoon Mark! | 09:05 |
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| ajmitch | hi pitti | 09:05 |
| pitti | hi ajmitch | 09:05 |
| Keybuk | just a quick general warning ... we're having a few network issues at the conference (shock), so it may be bouncy | 09:06 |
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| daniels | Keybuk: it wouldn't be an ubuntu conference without them | 09:06 |
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| Mez | is the ubuntu ESSID back now then? | 09:06 |
| spacey | its quite unstable | 09:06 |
| Mez | or are we all just using TELUS still | 09:06 |
| ajmitch | yes, it's back | 09:07 |
| Mez | wb Mark | 09:07 |
| Mez | ah, am still using TELUS... seems more reliable down here | 09:07 |
| Mez | lol | 09:07 |
| _null | what is telus? ;) | 09:07 |
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| Mez | unlike up in my room (the reason half the channels now have revolving doors is for me) | 09:07 |
| spacey | _null: accesspoint at UBZ | 09:08 |
| _null | ah | 09:08 |
| N6REJ | *knock knock, may I speak please* | 09:08 |
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| sabdfl | mjg59 will be around shortly, mdz is .. here | 09:08 |
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| Keybuk | *so* summoned | 09:08 |
| spayne | there you go | 09:08 |
| mjg59 | Hello | 09:08 |
| sabdfl | greetings from montreal madness | 09:08 |
| ivoks | hi | 09:09 |
| sabdfl | one of the things we've discussed here is focusing the TB more on technical issues | 09:09 |
| sabdfl | so we have some notes from UBZ | 09:10 |
| dholbach | hi matthew | 09:10 |
| sabdfl | some things have been decided, others are still up for contributions | 09:10 |
| sabdfl | should we touch on that stuff before dealing with new dev candidates? | 09:10 |
| Keybuk | first we should probably welcome and introduce mjg59 ... ? :) | 09:10 |
| sivang | Mez: I'm using TELUS right now, ubuntu essid still doesn't work for me | 09:10 |
| mdz | Keybuk: let him catch his breath first | 09:10 |
| Mez | sivang - #ubz | 09:10 |
| mdz | sabdfl: let's | 09:11 |
| sabdfl | ok, keybuk has a point, welcome mjg59! | 09:11 |
| sabdfl | great to have you here | 09:11 |
| sivang | welcome mjg59 :) | 09:11 |
| mjg59 | Good to be here :) | 09:11 |
| sabdfl | lot's of excitement here at montreal, the processes seem to have settled down so it all seems surprisingly relaxed and un-chaotic | 09:11 |
| spayne | mjg59: ;-) | 09:12 |
| Mez | sabdfl: for now | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | lots of good focused discussion in the first two days | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | let's see if those scheduling algorithms hold up tonight as we get into some of hte medium and lower priority discussions | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | anyhow, let's start by covering some of the high priority items that have been on the agenda here | 09:12 |
| sabdfl | mdz: UbuntuExpress? | 09:12 |
| sivang | and those that have been decided as well | 09:13 |
| mdz | we've taken a decision to implement a live-CD-based installer for dapper | 09:13 |
| mdz | working title "Ubuntu Express" | 09:13 |
| mdz | technical details are at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-express | 09:13 |
| ogra | what about the exisitng app that claimed thaqt name ? | 09:13 |
| mdz | and the spec linked from there will be updated to reflect ongoing discussion | 09:14 |
| mdz | ogra: that implementation was an attempt to create what we want here | 09:14 |
| ogra | yes, an attempt .. | 09:14 |
| mdz | so with any luck it will form the basis for this implementation | 09:14 |
| mdz | we'll cross that bridge when we come to it | 09:14 |
| === ogra shuts up and reads the spec first | ||
| mjg59 | mdz: Is this supposed to be the default installer, or merely an option? | 09:15 |
| mdz | mjg59: an excellent question | 09:15 |
| Kamion | ogra: we've already decided to base our implementation on the Guadalinex one if at all possible; if you have further questions, please ask me about them here rather than in the TB meeting | 09:15 |
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| ogra | Kamion, yup | 09:15 |
| mdz | mjg59: we hope to be able to use it as our front-line installer | 09:16 |
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| mjg59 | mdz: Is this likely to increase install time? | 09:16 |
| mdz | mjg59: it is likely to dramatically decrease installation time | 09:16 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Ok, if that's the assumption then excellent | 09:16 |
| ogra | mjg59, and it entertains you while installing :) | 09:17 |
| Keybuk | other specs are focussing on massively increasing the boot speed of the live cd | 09:17 |
| mdz | it will be copying a preinstalled filesystem rather than building one out of .debs | 09:17 |
| mjg59 | mdz: My main concern would be about skew between the d-i based installer that'll presumably still be necessary for server-level hardware and the graphical installer | 09:17 |
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| Kamion | mjg59: I'm going to be doing my best to minimise duplication between d-i and UE; that's the major problem with the current implementation | 09:20 |
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| Kamion | (we're having network problems here, hence why sabdfl and mdz dropped off) | 09:20 |
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| mdz | <mdz> it will be limited in flexibility | 09:20 |
| mdz | <mdz> but the advantages for the common case are dazzling | 09:20 |
| mdz | <mdz> the existing installer will be retained for other use cases | 09:20 |
| mdz | <mdz> we've also discussed the toolchain plan for the dapper cycle | 09:21 |
| Kamion | mjg59: my intent at the moment is to reuse some of the architecture from oem-config, which was all about calling installer bits from a real system | 09:21 |
| mdz | <mdz> where we'll be rather conservative and limit ourselves to point releases of the primary components | 09:21 |
| mdz | <mdz> specifically, gcc 4.0.x | 09:21 |
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| mdz | <mdz> and hopefully dropping 3.3 | 09:21 |
| sabdfl | dropping 3.4 too if we can, depending on glibc and kernel for PPC64 | 09:21 |
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| sabdfl | also, NOT shooting for 4.1 | 09:21 |
| sabdfl | since the main argument is java, and the people who care all seem to install the non-free bits anyway | 09:22 |
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| sabdfl | ok | 09:22 |
| sabdfl | migrations to launchpad | 09:22 |
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| sabdfl | we had a great demo of malone today | 09:22 |
| sabdfl | plan is to migrate all open bugs | 09:22 |
| sabdfl | you can see a preview at staging.ubuntu.com | 09:22 |
| Mez | sabdfl: apart from the big "oops" | 09:22 |
| sabdfl | https://staging.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bug/4658 | 09:23 |
| sabdfl | Mez: iz gtk burrg | 09:23 |
| === seb128 wonders if he can slaps sabdfl | ||
| mjg59 | Is there any plan to move to supporting nx-based systems? | 09:23 |
| sabdfl | seb128: with both hands ;-) | 09:24 |
| sabdfl | mjg59: fabian is here | 09:24 |
| seb128 | :) | 09:24 |
| sabdfl | and lobbying furiously for that | 09:24 |
| mjg59 | sabdfl: Heh. I meant No execute rather than the slimline X. | 09:24 |
| sabdfl | tollef has some concerns that i need to pass on to omachines | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | mjg59: aha :-) | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | mjg59: dapper + 1 | 09:25 |
| Kamion | mjg59: what support are we missing for those? | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | hmm... is that the stack protection? | 09:25 |
| mjg59 | Ok, so we have our toolchain goals fairly well set | 09:25 |
| mdz | sabdfl: yes | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | ok, elmo was saying dapper + 1 | 09:25 |
| sabdfl | firt rebuild with GCC 4.1, then rebuild again with stack protection | 09:25 |
| mjg59 | Kamion: I was under the impression that it's basically rebuilding the entire archive with the right compiler options, but I couldn't swear to that | 09:25 |
| elmo | NX is hardware assisted SSP, and is slightly different | 09:26 |
| sabdfl | early in the dapper + 1 cycle | 09:26 |
| sabdfl | elmo: go ahead | 09:26 |
| mdz | sabdfl: when we're breaking everything else | 09:26 |
| mjg59 | Most new hardware is shipping with nx support | 09:26 |
| sabdfl | mdz: furiously and for infinite justice | 09:26 |
| tseng | elmo: NX isnt really SSP at all | 09:26 |
| tseng | but i wont get into that | 09:26 |
| === mdz mutters under his breath | ||
| sabdfl | ok, that's a topic for the toolchain bof. elmo, can we put NX stuff into Dapper at all? | 09:26 |
| sabdfl | otherwise, dapper itself is now well defined | 09:27 |
| mjg59 | NX support is very buzzword compliant and Intel will love you forever | 09:27 |
| sabdfl | elmo: ? | 09:27 |
| Kamion | I seem to remember fixing a grub bug about two releases ago that was due to NX support having kicked in | 09:27 |
| Mithrandir | uh, we don't have any of the NX stuff there already? Why did Kamion spend a few days chasing a weird grub bug where it tried to trampoline off some malloced pages (iirc), then? | 09:27 |
| elmo | sabdfl: AFAIK it is already in | 09:27 |
| sabdfl | ok, cool | 09:27 |
| sabdfl | so, the last big thing so far is moving the archive to lp | 09:28 |
| === trulux [n=lorenzo@unaffiliated/trulux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| trulux | hi | 09:28 |
| sabdfl | daniel (kinnison) will present his stuff tomorrow | 09:28 |
| mjg59 | Ok, if we have it then it's obviously not a concern :) | 09:28 |
| sabdfl | we are running test imports and there are still bugs | 09:28 |
| sabdfl | mjg59: best let intel know so they can love us forever :-) | 09:28 |
| Mithrandir | mjg59: we have had a bug caused by it at least. :-P | 09:28 |
| mdz | tseng: stack execution versus overwrites on the stack, related in that often both are used in common exploit scenarios | 09:29 |
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| trulux | mdz: anything going on around security stuff? | 09:29 |
| mjg59 | Ok. So it sounds like our basic infrastructural Dapper stuff is fairly well defined. | 09:29 |
| sabdfl | at some stage in the next few weeks, we will transition to LP for the upload / queue / build management | 09:29 |
| sabdfl | expect bumps, but the sooner we hit them the better | 09:29 |
| sabdfl | and that's a wrap of the news headlines from montreal | 09:29 |
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| mdz | trulux: low-hanging fruit only for dapper; we shouldn't deploy anything too aggressive | 09:29 |
| trulux | mdz: I agree | 09:30 |
| mjg59 | sabdfl: Ok, that all sounds fairly reasonable. | 09:30 |
| sivang | sabdfl: is it in a better shape then before one week? | 09:30 |
| trulux | mdz: SELinux user-land support would make it into dapper AFAIK | 09:30 |
| mjg59 | Do we have a well defined idea of what low hanging fruit is yet? | 09:30 |
| sabdfl | mjg59: RIGID AND BORING! except for UbuntuExpress | 09:30 |
| sabdfl | we also had the first of a series of desktop tweaking sessions | 09:31 |
| sabdfl | gdm, panel, and menus are all coming under scrutiny | 09:31 |
| mdz | argu^Wdiscussions about desktop tweaks | 09:31 |
| mjg59 | But as a baseline, we're looking at Gnome 2.14 + ancilliary benefits, right? | 09:31 |
| sabdfl | we will land proposed tweaks sooner for maximum feedback pre-freeze | 09:31 |
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| sabdfl | mjg59: yes | 09:31 |
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| mdz | mjg59: 2.14 + shiny artwork + various UI sorts of projects | 09:32 |
| mjg59 | Ok. Are there any Dapper restrictions on Universe, or is it business as usual there? | 09:32 |
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| mdz | mjg59: we haven't in the past, and so far there hasn't been a proposal to change that | 09:33 |
| sabdfl | motu will likely have the same upstream version freeze | 09:33 |
| mdz | nor any obvious meltdowns as a result | 09:33 |
| sabdfl | mdz: this time we should make universe UVF explicit | 09:33 |
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| ajmitch | mjg59: the understanding was that we'll have a definite UVF | 09:33 |
| mdz | sabdfl: to what end? | 09:33 |
| sabdfl | the issue in the past has been MOTU's wanting newer stuff that affects dependencies in main | 09:33 |
| sabdfl | best we all rush to UVF together | 09:33 |
| \sh | sabdfl: actually it would be nice with an add of two weeks | 09:33 |
| tseng | or the motu still struggling to finish major transitions in hoary/breezy | 09:33 |
| dholbach | yes | 09:33 |
| ivoks | \sh: + | 09:33 |
| ajmitch | I think ogra's proposal is for UVF, and 2 weeks for other NEW packages | 09:33 |
| mjg59 | Ok. So it sounds like we have a pretty good idea what the default situation in Dapper is going to be, with a small set of exceptions | 09:34 |
| mdz | we've always stopped the automatic sync for universe at the same time | 09:34 |
| mdz | and that's sensible still | 09:34 |
| ajmitch | yes | 09:34 |
| mjg59 | Was a decision reached about Dapper kernel policy? | 09:34 |
| ajmitch | we need time in universe to make things sane | 09:34 |
| sabdfl | 2.6.15, i believe | 09:34 |
| sabdfl | same version for desktop and server, with different patch sets | 09:34 |
| mdz | mjg59: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-roadmap-dapper | 09:34 |
| sabdfl | ok, any other comments on UBZ? | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | any questions from the floor? | 09:35 |
| elmo | ARE WE THERE YET? | 09:35 |
| mdz | it's not as cold as all that | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | esp. those not able to atttend | 09:35 |
| sabdfl | Treenaks is taking video footage of the lightning talks and presentations, to be published asap | 09:35 |
| ivoks | nice | 09:35 |
| sabdfl | ogg rocks | 09:36 |
| sabdfl | ok, let's move along | 09:36 |
| tseng | mdz: you opened a spec for beagle integration, can we cross that bridge later, or you would like a spec this week or defer? | 09:36 |
| mdz | tseng: our current notion is to defer it as risky | 09:36 |
| tseng | mdz: id agree, as it stands | 09:36 |
| tseng | fair enough | 09:36 |
| mjg59 | sabdfl: Is there going to be a mail to u-devel describing the Dapper situation? | 09:36 |
| mdz | mjg59: are you volunteering to summarize? ;-) | 09:37 |
| mjg59 | I'd tend to think of Beagle as sufficient for main, if not necessarily desktop or ship | 09:37 |
| sabdfl | mjg59: good idea, we should announce each approved spec | 09:37 |
| mjg59 | mdz: Oh christ no | 09:37 |
| Mez | Movies: http://foodfight.org/movies/Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/ | 09:37 |
| sabdfl | yesterday we agreed to have a -devel-announce | 09:37 |
| sabdfl | reply to -devel | 09:37 |
| ajmitch | mjg59: beagle still has its issues at times | 09:37 |
| ajmitch | far less than before | 09:37 |
| sabdfl | and we will announce approved specs there... .approvers of the world take note | 09:37 |
| mdz | ...especially the ones not attending | 09:38 |
| Kamion | one announcement per spec seems too high-traffic; perhaps we can batch it, one message per day | 09:38 |
| mjg59 | mdz: As long as I don't have to write 20,000 lines of powermanagementconfig code, I approve | 09:38 |
| Kamion | otherwise we're going to turn off all our potential subscribers before we even get started | 09:38 |
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| mdz | mjg59: we do need your input on the power management config spec | 09:39 |
| mjg59 | mdz: sure, no problem | 09:39 |
| mdz | Kamion: sounds reasonable to me | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | Kamion: we can do the mail at the end of the daily approver meeting while at the conf | 09:39 |
| mdz | mjg59: lots of good discussion in that area but needs some technical guidance | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | if someone can bread-roll jdub and get him to click the "create list" button | 09:39 |
| mjg59 | Sessions using gobby on public addresses = win | 09:39 |
| sabdfl | ok, are we ready to look at new devs? | 09:39 |
| Kamion | Keybuk: right | 09:40 |
| sivang | mjg59: it's so sweet :) | 09:40 |
| mjg59 | (If I could repeat that - SESSIONS USING GOBBY ON PUBLIC ADDRESSES = WIN) | 09:40 |
| sabdfl | do we have a public address? | 09:40 |
| Mithrandir | somebody should write a gobby server which we could run in the DC or something. | 09:40 |
| Mithrandir | like, headless. | 09:40 |
| Kamion | somebody should fix gobby so it doesn't crash all the time :P | 09:40 |
| mjg59 | A gobby metaserver would be ideal | 09:41 |
| mdz | right, so developer candidates | 09:41 |
| mjg59 | But being able to give input into specs drafting while not being there makes the process a good deal better | 09:41 |
| mjg59 | But yes, developer candidates | 09:41 |
| mdz | two people have applied since the last meeting | 09:41 |
| sabdfl | anybody here applied for motu? | 09:41 |
| mdz | for core-dev | 09:41 |
| mdz | https://launchpad.net/people/aaron-bitchx and https://launchpad.net/people/siretart | 09:41 |
| dholbach | mdz: siretart did for main | 09:42 |
| === siretart is here | ||
| Keybuk | https://launchpad.net/people/siretart | 09:42 |
| siretart | but wifi is... unreliable ;) | 09:42 |
| pef | sabdfl: yes, I applied for MOTU | 09:42 |
| Kamion | dholbach: the TB has a convenient list in LP | 09:42 |
| sabdfl | for motu, it's six new applicants | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | https://launchpad.net/people/aaron-bitchx | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | bah, mdz beat me :p | 09:42 |
| mjg59 | aaron-bitchx doesn't appear to have a wiki page | 09:42 |
| mjg59 | He also doesn't appear to be here, unless I'm mistaken? | 09:42 |
| dholbach | Kamion: yes, i was aware of that :) | 09:42 |
| mdz | mjg59: I also have no idea who they are | 09:43 |
| === ajmitch doesn't recognise the nick as any MOTU | ||
| tseng | mjg59: nor is he a member of any launchpad teams | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: also not an ubuntite, or member, etc. | 09:43 |
| Keybuk | Is "Farias" here? | 09:43 |
| mjg59 | Ok. Can we drop them until we have some idea who they are? | 09:43 |
| ivoks | that guy was once in #ubuntu-motu | 09:43 |
| ivoks | asking what he can do | 09:43 |
| mdz | question: should we explicitly decline candidates who propose themselves apparently at random and don't contact anyone? | 09:43 |
| \sh | I think only siretart is well known now :) | 09:43 |
| ivoks | afaik, he didn't move any fruther... | 09:43 |
| mdz | we don't currently have the ability to provide a reason, I don't think | 09:44 |
| ajmitch | mdz: it cuts down on noise | 09:44 |
| mjg59 | mdz: I'm inclined to suggest that they be non-prejudicially rejected | 09:44 |
| mjg59 | But making that clear may involve facilities we don't have | 09:44 |
| sabdfl | we don't currently have a way just to make those requests disappear | 09:44 |
| === rob^ looks in | ||
| mjg59 | I think this is a problem to solve in the future, though | 09:44 |
| siretart | they obviously fail to prove to know how the process of becoming developer works | 09:44 |
| sabdfl | so, going systematically | 09:44 |
| mjg59 | Shall we move on to siretart? | 09:44 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: could we have a "decline with a reason" button? :p | 09:45 |
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| mdz | Keybuk: I smell a spec | 09:45 |
| trulux | hey pitti | 09:45 |
| mjg59 | In siretart's faviour, he's here and I recognise the name :) | 09:45 |
| siretart | hi pitti ;) | 09:45 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: sure. nudge salgado or land it yourself :-) | 09:45 |
| siretart | :) | 09:45 |
| mdz | mjg59: he's also *here* | 09:45 |
| ajmitch | he also lent me a laptop, so he has my vote :) | 09:45 |
| sabdfl | siretart: what areas of main are you particularly interested in working on? | 09:45 |
| siretart | sabdfl: I'm currently concentrating on q/a, especially this revu stuff | 09:46 |
| siretart | sabdfl: I intend to help in processing merges in main and general bugfixing | 09:46 |
| tseng | dholbach-lite :) | 09:46 |
| dholbach | tseng: come on :) | 09:47 |
| ajmitch | tseng: noone can compete with the dholbach | 09:47 |
| siretart | hrhr | 09:47 |
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| === dholbach blushes | ||
| magnon | aww. | 09:47 |
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| sabdfl | can some of the motu comment on siretarts current coding, package management, upload approach? | 09:48 |
| dholbach | i'd be quite happy with siretart in main. he was both reliable in being active and his solutions themselves. he didnt just grab the low-hanging fruits and he has a good overview of what's going on. | 09:49 |
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| tseng | siretart doesnt really have his head stuck in the packaging level (altough he is no slouch at that) | 09:49 |
| Mez | dholbach has just put into words exactly what I was thinking | 09:49 |
| dholbach | and he's been a central part of MOTU in the last 8 months? 9 months? | 09:49 |
| tseng | he is an expert at management also | 09:49 |
| mjg59 | I'd also say that siretart was entirely competent doing laptop testing | 09:49 |
| tseng | and created REVU in one of the biggest boosts to motu productivity | 09:49 |
| === tseng is a fan | ||
| Mez | and revu2/revu3 is looking good | 09:50 |
| === siretart is honoured :) | ||
| ogra_ | dholbach, so he's about to be born into main ? :) | 09:50 |
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| sabdfl | siretart: who would you discuss a low-level upload with? | 09:51 |
| sabdfl | can you give some examples of package that you consider a high-risk upload? | 09:51 |
| siretart | sabdfl: I'd say it depends, because I'd consider low level to be potential critical | 09:52 |
| siretart | the key packages are packages with large reverse dependencies | 09:52 |
| siretart | obviously this includes packages like libc or kernel, which I'd never touch without having someone working on it reviewed (that means my patch to that looked at) | 09:53 |
| sabdfl | siretart: did you make much of a contribution to any of the recent universe transitions? | 09:53 |
| sabdfl | dholbach: can you comment on that? | 09:53 |
| siretart | so especially library packages are critical, gnome has a lot of them ;) | 09:53 |
| sabdfl | siretart: do you run kde on any machines? | 09:54 |
| siretart | sabdfl: I think I've done a fair amount of cxx transition uploads | 09:54 |
| mdz | siretart: it's crucial that core developers be able to assess the risk of their changes before uploading, and seek advice if appropriate | 09:54 |
| siretart | mdz: absolutly. | 09:54 |
| mdz | siretart: can you explain how you would go about making those judgements? | 09:54 |
| siretart | mdz: this is such a general question. I'd go to the changelog, look at the people who worked on it, and asses which other package a diff could affect | 09:55 |
| dholbach | sabdfl: he worked on the merges and on ghc6 and the unmet depedencies we tracked down | 09:56 |
| siretart | obviously this affects both reverse depends and reverse build depends in many cases | 09:56 |
| mdz | siretart: yes, it is very general. feel free to use specific examples to explain your reasoning | 09:56 |
| mdz | siretart: for example, a situation where you would go ahead with a change, and one where you would decide to wait until you had more information or review | 09:58 |
| siretart | sabdfl: I don't run kde on my machines, so I'd rather don't touch kde packages without being absolutly sure that I wont break anything. But installing kde on my private machine and testing kde is also no problem to me | 09:59 |
| siretart | mdz: I | 09:59 |
| siretart | argl | 09:59 |
| Mez | argl ? | 09:59 |
| siretart | mistyped | 09:59 |
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| siretart | I'd go on with and upload without notifying anyone else if I can really reprodoce the bug/problem and can testify that the bug is gone with that | 10:00 |
| siretart | obviously there can be bad side effects, I'm aware of that and try to avoid that | 10:01 |
| siretart | but there are also in main many easy bugs that can be fixed | 10:01 |
| siretart | think of merges in packages like diveintopython | 10:01 |
| siretart | or documentation packages. they don't have risk to break the whole system | 10:01 |
| mdz | all the same, they are not without risk. a broken diveintopython package will cause the desktop install to fail, and would delay a milestone or even a release | 10:02 |
| === bmonty_laptop [n=bmontgom@wsip-68-15-230-31.om.om.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| siretart | err, in that case the package would be really broken such as in uninstallable | 10:02 |
| siretart | I think I've proven that I can check others not to produce such packages | 10:03 |
| siretart | so I'd consider myself competent enough to do such checks on myself | 10:03 |
| sabdfl | siretart: how would you check to see if the -desktop archive is currently installable? | 10:03 |
| siretart | debootstrap and apt-get install ubuntu-desktop? | 10:04 |
| siretart | on private repo with my 'testpackage; installed | 10:04 |
| sabdfl | siretart: that would work, yes, there's a daily report though | 10:04 |
| sabdfl | most dev's check it regularly | 10:04 |
| siretart | yeah, but only after I uploaded it | 10:04 |
| siretart | I thought this question would be about checking if an upload would break it | 10:05 |
| mdz | siretart: what other tools and methods do you use to test a package before uploading it? | 10:05 |
| siretart | mdz: pbuilder, and sbuild obviously, but I also find piuparts quite useful | 10:06 |
| siretart | for mass rebuilds, I find sbuild more convinient | 10:06 |
| Keybuk | how do you check whether you've made any of the common mistakes in your package? | 10:07 |
| siretart | I configured my debuild setup to run both linda and lintian by default, this catches to MOST common mistakes | 10:08 |
| mdz | siretart: and what was Keybuk's previous hair colour? | 10:10 |
| Keybuk | in a few of your uploads, you've actually converted the packaging system used (to dpatch in a few, and cdbs in another) to apply relatively minor changes -- could you explain your reasoning for doing so? | 10:10 |
| sabdfl | which hair? | 10:10 |
| siretart | mdz: I think brown ;) | 10:10 |
| sabdfl | how about a final round of questions, then a "yes" or "defer" vote? | 10:10 |
| mdz | I'm finished | 10:10 |
| mjg59 | I think Scott's question is a good one - converting between build systems increases the skew against Debian, which makes contributing patches back more difficult | 10:11 |
| siretart | Keybuk: I'd consider that now as a mstake. I had the misassumption that this would actually faciliate the work for the DD. after reading some discussion, like joeys rants about motus excessivly using dpatch, I'd rather agree to him | 10:11 |
| mdz | ok, calling for votes then | 10:12 |
| siretart | Keybuk: I'm about to process merges to packages I borked myself and undo that change, because debdiff is the state of the art tool for now :/ | 10:12 |
| mjg59 | siretart: If you're willing to evangelise in that respect, I'm entirely in favour | 10:12 |
| sabdfl | +1 from me, on the basis that i think he's touched a wide variety of packages in generally constructive ways | 10:12 |
| dholbach | it was a misconception among the whole motu crew, to be honest - we discussed this in the last motu-meeting | 10:13 |
| mjg59 | +1 from me - I think he shows a good understanding of the issues involved, and is willing to accept that certain techical decisions were mistakes (which puts him ahead of many :) ) | 10:13 |
| Keybuk | indeed | 10:13 |
| Keybuk | +1 from me | 10:13 |
| mdz | +1, reflecting general thoughtfulness of process and judgement | 10:14 |
| dholbach | YAY | 10:14 |
| mdz | siretart: congratulations and welcome | 10:14 |
| sabdfl | so | 10:14 |
| sabdfl | congratulations siretart | 10:14 |
| siretart | YAY! Thanks you all! :) | 10:14 |
| dholbach | excellent :) | 10:14 |
| sabdfl | and welcome (further) aboard :-) | 10:14 |
| === dholbach hugs siretart | ||
| === Mez watches as evyone looks confused at the clapping in the room | ||
| Mez | quite funny | 10:14 |
| mjg59 | UniverseCandidates? | 10:14 |
| ivoks | siretart: nice! :) | 10:14 |
| mjg59 | (or whatever it's called) | 10:14 |
| dholbach | mjg59: ? :) | 10:14 |
| ogra_ | congrats siretart :) | 10:15 |
| mdz | mjg59: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev/+members | 10:15 |
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| sabdfl | are there any MOTU candidates here? | 10:15 |
| dholbach | mjg59: that's the wiki page for users suggesting new software for ubuntu universe :) | 10:15 |
| ajmitch | sabdfl: bmonty_laptop is here for a change | 10:15 |
| \sh | siretart: rock...u have to pay the drinks tonight ,-) | 10:15 |
| bmonty_laptop | hey guys, sorry I'm late, but can you still consider my MOTU application? | 10:15 |
| ajmitch | siretart: well done :) | 10:15 |
| slomo | siretart: congrats :) | 10:15 |
| sabdfl | dholbach: new tb member's duty is to filter those and predict which ones elmo will bump to multiverse ;-) | 10:15 |
| JaneW | siretart: congratulations | 10:15 |
| Keybuk | https://launchpad.net/people/hestonbonapart, https://launchpad.net/people/ryoma-nagare, https://launchpad.net/people/loic, https://launchpad.net/people/changjiang98, https://launchpad.net/people/thisdyingdream | 10:15 |
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| sabdfl | bmonty_laptop: are you in the list keybuk posted? | 10:16 |
| pef | sabdfl: I'm loic | 10:16 |
| mdz | before we consider MOTU candidates, I'd like to make a proposal regarding core candidates | 10:16 |
| tseng | he is https://launchpad.net/people/bmontgom | 10:16 |
| Keybuk | mdz: ok | 10:17 |
| bmonty_laptop | sabdfl: no | 10:17 |
| sabdfl | bmonty_laptop: ok, go ahead and propose yourself for the ubuntu-dev team | 10:17 |
| mdz | specifically, that we only consider candidates who have already participated in MOTU, unless there is an explicit consensus to fast-track someone where we have first-hand working knowledge | 10:17 |
| bmonty_laptop | sabdfl: I think I already have, but let me check | 10:18 |
| sabdfl | +1 from me on that, with exceptions for DD's and other highly qualified folks | 10:18 |
| Mez | mdz: I thought that was the case anywya | 10:18 |
| mjg59 | mdz: I think that should be stated explicitly, yes | 10:18 |
| mdz | Mez: it's been implicit | 10:18 |
| sabdfl | Mez: not explicit yet | 10:18 |
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| mdz | mjg59: this would allow us to clean out the list of ubuntu-core-dev candidates in launchpad | 10:18 |
| ogra_ | Mithrandir, in fact i'm just about to upload the latest gnome-screensaver to dapper | 10:18 |
| ogra_ | whoops ECHAN | 10:19 |
| Keybuk | yeah, +1 it's been pretty much an implicit so far | 10:19 |
| mjg59 | Unless there are pressing reasons for an exception, it ought to be expected that core developers are already engaged in development | 10:19 |
| mdz | ok, agreed then | 10:19 |
| mdz | sabdfl is cleaning out the list accordingly | 10:19 |
| bmonty_laptop | sabdfl: lanchpad says I am already proposed and waiting for approval | 10:19 |
| mdz | I think there are enough paths to MOTU that anyone seeking to get involved won't have trouble finding their way | 10:19 |
| mjg59 | Ok, cool. | 10:20 |
| bmonty_laptop | mdz: I'd agree with that | 10:20 |
| mjg59 | MOTU people? | 10:20 |
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| tseng | we actively pull people in whenever possible | 10:20 |
| mjg59 | Do we have anyone other than pef? | 10:20 |
| tseng | where there is interest. | 10:20 |
| sabdfl | bmonty_laptop: ok, see you now | 10:20 |
| Keybuk | bmonty_laptop: did you not show up at the previous meeting? | 10:20 |
| bmonty_laptop | Keybuk: no, the last meeting occurs during my work hours | 10:21 |
| bmonty_laptop | and I have no IRC access at work | 10:21 |
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| Keybuk | should we also start explicitly only approving for MOTU those people who are already Ubuntu Members? | 10:22 |
| Keybuk | that's easy to check with launchpad now, we've only not done it so far because the CC held the list and we didn't | 10:22 |
| mdz | I would like to avoid a lockstep process where people need to show up for multiple meetings during different weeks just to go through the process | 10:24 |
| mdz | any ideas for how we can simplify it? | 10:24 |
| bmonty_laptop | mdz: why the requirement for the irc meeting? | 10:24 |
| Mez | mdz: if they get MOTU - then they're automatically a member ? | 10:24 |
| tseng | most MOTUs worthy of approval can be vouched for by one of us | 10:24 |
| Mez | (make MOTU a member of members) | 10:24 |
| tseng | and already made a meeting for member status | 10:25 |
| sabdfl | i think we can let the TB approve membership directly | 10:25 |
| tseng | approved by CC members | 10:25 |
| sabdfl | in fact, i thought that was the PreHoaryPositionThatStayed | 10:25 |
| tseng | hm we have been implicitly implying membership all along ime | 10:26 |
| tseng | uh | 10:26 |
| tseng | implicitly requiring... | 10:26 |
| tseng | prehoary process was just a quick 3 votes at TB for maintainership | 10:26 |
| sabdfl | ok | 10:27 |
| sabdfl | the discussion rounf the table here is... | 10:27 |
| sabdfl | i'm proposing that we make the TB-can-give-membership thing formal | 10:27 |
| mdz | if developership implies membership, we need to be more rigorous about having developers go through the other bits of the membership process | 10:27 |
| sabdfl | and i'll put this on the CC agenda now | 10:27 |
| mdz | such as signing the CoC | 10:27 |
| mdz | sabdfl: agreed, should be discussed with CC | 10:27 |
| sabdfl | in fact, i'd like to propose that the forums guys can grant membership | 10:27 |
| tseng | could you be more specific with "the forums guys"? | 10:28 |
| sabdfl | on the basis that membership is all about a "substantial contribution", and they are in a better position to judge that for forum participants | 10:28 |
| sabdfl | elmo: ^^ PANIC | 10:28 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: I can't hear any screams ... | 10:28 |
| tseng | i am panicing for him! | 10:28 |
| Seveas | sabdfl, so let the forum guys vouch for them at the CC meetings | 10:28 |
| mdz | sabdfl: I think we should defer this to the CC meeting | 10:29 |
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| mdz | especially for the sake of those who are staying up late to be considered for MOTU | 10:29 |
| Keybuk | ok, can we hear from our MOTU on bmonty and pef ? | 10:31 |
| Keybuk | have they been working with you so far, and if so, do you think they're ready? | 10:31 |
| tseng | i sponsored bmonty on a significant number of rebuilds to clear unmet deps | 10:32 |
| tseng | i think he moved onto to higher fruit after that, anyone else? | 10:32 |
| Riddell | pef has been doing great stuff for KDE packages | 10:32 |
| Riddell | he's been packaging faster than I can review but his pacakges are all good quality so far | 10:33 |
| LaserJock | can a MOTU wannabe say something? | 10:33 |
| mdz | LaserJock: if you have first-hand information to share, certainly | 10:33 |
| tseng | LaserJock: if its relevaant to the topic at hand, of course | 10:33 |
| Riddell | pef as been helping keep packages up to date too which is cool | 10:33 |
| dholbach | i reviewed quite a bunch of pef's packages, he really does a good job on packaging stuff and recently got involved in fixing universe bugs in malone | 10:34 |
| tseng | (yay for turns) | 10:35 |
| LaserJock | bmonty has helped me a lot learning to package and is one of the reasons I like to contribute to Ubuntu. He is friendly and professional and gives good advice. | 10:35 |
| Riddell | oh yes, pef has been going through some kubuntu bugs, which is very welcome | 10:35 |
| === tseng glares at Riddell some more | ||
| slomo | i reviewed some of pef's packages too... all of them were fine except sometimes small mistakes that could be simple fixed :) | 10:36 |
| mdz | tseng: Keybuk is attempting parallel candidate processing | 10:36 |
| dholbach | bmonty worked together with bddebian in the hard times of merges/unmet-deps and they both ruled breezy-changes in that time. unfortunately i didnt work much with him, because i was busy with my thesis | 10:36 |
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| Keybuk | pef: what kind of things will you be doing in universe? | 10:36 |
| Riddell | tseng: why? | 10:37 |
| tseng | mdz: an interesting tactic | 10:37 |
| pef | Keybuk: fixing bugs and package applications, especially kde stuff | 10:37 |
| Mez | +1 for kde stuff :D | 10:38 |
| pef | Keybuk: and help new motus, review their packages like motus are doing for me | 10:39 |
| Keybuk | just looked though pef's uploads, he gets a +1 from me, lots of good work there and think he'll be doing some good work for kubuntu | 10:39 |
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| mdz | +1 for pef based on feedback from his peers | 10:40 |
| mjg59 | +1 - I'm happy with the feedback | 10:40 |
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| sabdfl | +1 from me too, with extra interest on the Kubuntu front | 10:41 |
| sabdfl | welcome aboard! | 10:41 |
| mdz | pef: congratulations to you | 10:41 |
| Keybuk | bmonty: looks like you're doing some good work, but I'd personally like to see you work a little more closely with the MOTU and come back and apply again in a later meeting | 10:41 |
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| bmonty_laptop | Keybuk: work more closely in what way? | 10:42 |
| pef | thank you all :] I'm really proud being a motu :) | 10:42 |
| Mez | congrats pef: welcome to the team | 10:42 |
| mdz | bmonty_laptop: if there are others on the MOTU team who have worked more closely with you, we would like to hear from them | 10:42 |
| mdz | bmonty_laptop: perhaps bddebian? | 10:42 |
| sabdfl | bmonty: don't be discouraged, but i would agree with keybuk and say i look forward to seeing you here again in a month or two, with some more packaging experience | 10:42 |
| dholbach | pef: excellent work! well done | 10:42 |
| pef | dholbach: thank you for being present here | 10:43 |
| Keybuk | bmonty_laptop: carry on how you're going, work on some more different kinds of packages across the archive and work with a few different members of the MOTU team | 10:43 |
| pef | Riddell: thank you too :) | 10:43 |
| dholbach | pef: de rien | 10:43 |
| mjg59 | bmonty_laptop: (For what it's worth, it took around a year from me applying to Debian to being able to upload anything) | 10:44 |
| Riddell | pef: you're cool, keep up the kubuntu help! | 10:45 |
| bmonty_laptop | k, I'll keep working at it | 10:45 |
| mjg59 | bmonty_laptop: So please don't be discouraged :) | 10:45 |
| Keybuk | bmonty_laptop: definitely, please do! | 10:45 |
| mdz | bmonty_laptop: we appreciate your interest and efforts so far | 10:45 |
| bmonty_laptop | hey guys, this is discouraging, but I was having fun working on breezy and I'll continue to what I find fun with dapper | 10:46 |
| daniels | bmonty_laptop: (took me 3.5 years to get upload privileges in Debian.) | 10:46 |
| Amaranth | daniels: Those guys are nuts then. :) | 10:47 |
| tseng | Amaranth: not really, he was busy trolling them. | 10:47 |
| Keybuk | Amaranth: he was very very very 14 | 10:47 |
| Amaranth | Ah, this explains much. | 10:47 |
| mjg59 | So, anything else on the agenda? | 10:49 |
| === mjg59 is busy thinking of the pub again | ||
| mdz | one last item | 10:49 |
| mdz | we have a new mailing list, ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com | 10:49 |
| mdz | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce | 10:49 |
| mdz | to separate announcement posts from the increasing traffic on ubuntu-devel | 10:49 |
| mjg59 | +1 | 10:49 |
| mdz | everyone subscribe, kthxbye | 10:49 |
| mjg59 | Excellent | 10:49 |
| mdz | any other business? | 10:49 |
| Keybuk | developers will be using that to announce big changes, and keep everyone in touch with what's happening | 10:50 |
| mjg59 | I suggest that we encourage people at UDZ to enjoy Montreal while they can | 10:50 |
| mdz | likewise for those at UBZ | 10:50 |
| daniels | and those in Montral | 10:50 |
| Keybuk | now, where's the whiskey? | 10:50 |
| ivoks | heh and what about others, still in europe? :) | 10:50 |
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| mdz | right | 10:50 |
| mdz | meeting adjourned | 10:51 |
| mdz | thanks everyone for your participation | 10:51 |
| tseng | thanks mdz | 10:51 |
| mjg59 | And the whisky | 10:51 |
| dholbach | thank you | 10:51 |
| mjg59 | Excellent. See you soon. | 10:51 |
| pef | thank you ! | 10:51 |
| ivoks | thnx | 10:51 |
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