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joined #ubuntu-meeting === fabbione [n=fabbione@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@adsl-68-127-26-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko_ [n=doko@66.103.220.223] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:05] hey everyone === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [n=doko@66.103.220.223] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === _null [n=null@kladde.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:28] hey _null ;) [05:28] <_null> hey spayne ;) === mvo [n=egon@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Seveaz [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mez_ [n=Mez@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.247] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.247] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bhuvan 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joined #ubuntu-meeting === _eins is now known as _null === Mez [n=Mez@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:24] hey Mez [08:25] hey [08:25] meeting in 35 mins ? === _null is now known as _eins === _eins is now known as _null === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:31] Mez: yes [08:31] Mez: i thought i better stay and explain myself [08:32] spayne, only if you're asked to === mez_ [n=Mez@66.103.220.251] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:40] Mez: is a TB meeting don't speak until your asked to? [08:41] ususally, unless you have something to say [08:42] spayne: just don't talk when you don't have anything to say about the active topic [08:42] JanC: a good rule of thumb [08:43] and when you want a specific topic to be discussed, make sure it's on the agenda :) === dholbach [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/dholbach] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont [n=lamont@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:49] hi dholbach [08:49] hi === Keybuk [n=scott@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === schweeb [n=chris@d14-69-197-20.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ivoks [n=ivoks@ubuntu/member/ivoks] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === chmj [n=chmj@66.103.220.248] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === \sh [n=sh@ubuntu/member/backslash-sh] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pef [n=loic@ubuntu/member/pef] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [n=mdz@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:53] hi all [08:53] hi again ivoks [08:53] hello all [08:54] evening mdz, ogra, \sh [08:54] evening? :) [08:54] it is evening here in England [08:54] good ol' england :-) [08:54] here too :) [08:55] <_null> it's dark and cold outside :/ [08:55] oh [08:55] sorry [08:55] my clock was on evening time :D [08:55] hi all [08:55] (england time) [08:56] Mez: where abouts in jolly england are you? [08:56] nowhere? :p [08:56] spayne: I'm in Canada atm [08:57] Mez: you know what i mean [08:57] Birmngham *cringes* [08:57] hi folks [08:57] Newcastle [08:57] Mez: morning [08:57] hi everybody :) === dholbach_ [n=daniel@66.103.220.186] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:57] afternoon mdz :P [08:58] hi [08:59] Tue Nov 1 19:59:20 UTC 2005 [08:59] <_null> Tue Nov 1 20:59:37 CET 2005 [08:59] <_null> ;) [08:59] so, TB meeting now? [08:59] we'll be starting in a few minutes when mjg59 arrives [08:59] howdy everyone === daniels [n=daniels@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:01] mdz: fine [09:04] hi, my name is ivoks, and I'm alcocholic [09:04] where did that come from!?! [09:04] :/ [09:04] wrong channel [09:04] sorry [09:05] [09:05] looks like montreal splits :/ [09:05] yep [09:05] lol [09:05] yeah [09:05] it's dodgy === sabdfl [n=mark@pdpc/supporter/silver/sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [n=scott@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:05] afternoon [09:05] wb guys [09:05] hi sabdfl [09:05] afternoon Mark! === pitti [n=pitti@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:05] hi pitti [09:05] hi ajmitch [09:06] just a quick general warning ... we're having a few network issues at the conference (shock), so it may be bouncy === spacey [n=spacey@flits101-191.flits.rug.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:06] Keybuk: it wouldn't be an ubuntu conference without them === sabdfl [n=mark@pdpc/supporter/silver/sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:06] is the ubuntu ESSID back now then? [09:06] its quite unstable [09:06] or are we all just using TELUS still [09:07] yes, it's back [09:07] wb Mark [09:07] ah, am still using TELUS... seems more reliable down here [09:07] lol [09:07] <_null> what is telus? ;) === N6REJ [n=cogyfarm@216.139.123.164] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:07] unlike up in my room (the reason half the channels now have revolving doors is for me) [09:08] _null: accesspoint at UBZ [09:08] <_null> ah [09:08] *knock knock, may I speak please* === mdz [n=mdz@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:08] mjg59 will be around shortly, mdz is .. here === mjg59 [n=mjg59@cavan.codon.org.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:08] *so* summoned [09:08] there you go [09:08] Hello [09:08] greetings from montreal madness [09:09] hi [09:09] one of the things we've discussed here is focusing the TB more on technical issues [09:10] so we have some notes from UBZ [09:10] hi matthew [09:10] some things have been decided, others are still up for contributions [09:10] should we touch on that stuff before dealing with new dev candidates? [09:10] first we should probably welcome and introduce mjg59 ... ? :) [09:10] Mez: I'm using TELUS right now, ubuntu essid still doesn't work for me [09:10] Keybuk: let him catch his breath first [09:10] sivang - #ubz [09:11] sabdfl: let's [09:11] ok, keybuk has a point, welcome mjg59! [09:11] great to have you here [09:11] welcome mjg59 :) [09:11] Good to be here :) [09:11] lot's of excitement here at montreal, the processes seem to have settled down so it all seems surprisingly relaxed and un-chaotic [09:12] mjg59: ;-) [09:12] sabdfl: for now [09:12] lots of good focused discussion in the first two days [09:12] let's see if those scheduling algorithms hold up tonight as we get into some of hte medium and lower priority discussions [09:12] anyhow, let's start by covering some of the high priority items that have been on the agenda here [09:12] mdz: UbuntuExpress? [09:13] and those that have been decided as well [09:13] we've taken a decision to implement a live-CD-based installer for dapper [09:13] working title "Ubuntu Express" [09:13] technical details are at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-express [09:13] what about the exisitng app that claimed thaqt name ? [09:14] and the spec linked from there will be updated to reflect ongoing discussion [09:14] ogra: that implementation was an attempt to create what we want here [09:14] yes, an attempt .. [09:14] so with any luck it will form the basis for this implementation [09:14] we'll cross that bridge when we come to it === ogra shuts up and reads the spec first [09:15] mdz: Is this supposed to be the default installer, or merely an option? [09:15] mjg59: an excellent question [09:15] ogra: we've already decided to base our implementation on the Guadalinex one if at all possible; if you have further questions, please ask me about them here rather than in the TB meeting === N6REJ [n=cogyfarm@216.139.123.164] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [09:15] Kamion, yup [09:16] mjg59: we hope to be able to use it as our front-line installer === vuntz [n=vuntz@fennas.vuntz.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:16] mdz: Is this likely to increase install time? [09:16] mjg59: it is likely to dramatically decrease installation time [09:16] mdz: Ok, if that's the assumption then excellent [09:17] mjg59, and it entertains you while installing :) [09:17] other specs are focussing on massively increasing the boot speed of the live cd [09:17] it will be copying a preinstalled filesystem rather than building one out of .debs [09:17] mdz: My main concern would be about skew between the d-i based installer that'll presumably still be necessary for server-level hardware and the graphical installer === seb128 [n=seb128@66.103.220.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:20] mjg59: I'm going to be doing my best to minimise duplication between d-i and UE; that's the major problem with the current implementation === SteveA [n=steve@66.103.220.160] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:20] (we're having network problems here, hence why sabdfl and mdz dropped off) === mdz [n=mdz@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === elmo [n=james@83-216-156-21.jamest747.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:20] it will be limited in flexibility [09:20] but the advantages for the common case are dazzling [09:20] the existing installer will be retained for other use cases [09:21] we've also discussed the toolchain plan for the dapper cycle [09:21] mjg59: my intent at the moment is to reuse some of the architecture from oem-config, which was all about calling installer bits from a real system [09:21] where we'll be rather conservative and limit ourselves to point releases of the primary components [09:21] specifically, gcc 4.0.x === sabdfl [n=mark@pdpc/supporter/silver/sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:21] and hopefully dropping 3.3 [09:21] dropping 3.4 too if we can, depending on glibc and kernel for PPC64 === lamont [n=lamont@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:21] also, NOT shooting for 4.1 [09:22] since the main argument is java, and the people who care all seem to install the non-free bits anyway === fabbione [n=fabbione@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:22] ok [09:22] migrations to launchpad === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.7.130.247] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:22] we had a great demo of malone today [09:22] plan is to migrate all open bugs [09:22] you can see a preview at staging.ubuntu.com [09:22] sabdfl: apart from the big "oops" [09:23] https://staging.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bug/4658 [09:23] Mez: iz gtk burrg === seb128 wonders if he can slaps sabdfl [09:23] Is there any plan to move to supporting nx-based systems? [09:24] seb128: with both hands ;-) [09:24] mjg59: fabian is here [09:24] :) [09:24] and lobbying furiously for that [09:24] sabdfl: Heh. I meant No execute rather than the slimline X. [09:25] tollef has some concerns that i need to pass on to omachines [09:25] mjg59: aha :-) [09:25] mjg59: dapper + 1 [09:25] mjg59: what support are we missing for those? [09:25] hmm... is that the stack protection? [09:25] Ok, so we have our toolchain goals fairly well set [09:25] sabdfl: yes [09:25] ok, elmo was saying dapper + 1 [09:25] firt rebuild with GCC 4.1, then rebuild again with stack protection [09:25] Kamion: I was under the impression that it's basically rebuilding the entire archive with the right compiler options, but I couldn't swear to that [09:26] NX is hardware assisted SSP, and is slightly different [09:26] early in the dapper + 1 cycle [09:26] elmo: go ahead [09:26] sabdfl: when we're breaking everything else [09:26] Most new hardware is shipping with nx support [09:26] mdz: furiously and for infinite justice [09:26] elmo: NX isnt really SSP at all [09:26] but i wont get into that === mdz mutters under his breath [09:26] ok, that's a topic for the toolchain bof. elmo, can we put NX stuff into Dapper at all? [09:27] otherwise, dapper itself is now well defined [09:27] NX support is very buzzword compliant and Intel will love you forever [09:27] elmo: ? [09:27] I seem to remember fixing a grub bug about two releases ago that was due to NX support having kicked in [09:27] uh, we don't have any of the NX stuff there already? Why did Kamion spend a few days chasing a weird grub bug where it tried to trampoline off some malloced pages (iirc), then? [09:27] sabdfl: AFAIK it is already in [09:27] ok, cool [09:28] so, the last big thing so far is moving the archive to lp === trulux [n=lorenzo@unaffiliated/trulux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:28] hi [09:28] daniel (kinnison) will present his stuff tomorrow [09:28] Ok, if we have it then it's obviously not a concern :) [09:28] we are running test imports and there are still bugs [09:28] mjg59: best let intel know so they can love us forever :-) [09:28] mjg59: we have had a bug caused by it at least. :-P [09:29] tseng: stack execution versus overwrites on the stack, related in that often both are used in common exploit scenarios === corey_ [n=corey@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:29] mdz: anything going on around security stuff? [09:29] Ok. So it sounds like our basic infrastructural Dapper stuff is fairly well defined. [09:29] at some stage in the next few weeks, we will transition to LP for the upload / queue / build management [09:29] expect bumps, but the sooner we hit them the better [09:29] and that's a wrap of the news headlines from montreal === mez_ [n=Mez@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:29] trulux: low-hanging fruit only for dapper; we shouldn't deploy anything too aggressive [09:30] mdz: I agree [09:30] sabdfl: Ok, that all sounds fairly reasonable. [09:30] sabdfl: is it in a better shape then before one week? [09:30] mdz: SELinux user-land support would make it into dapper AFAIK [09:30] Do we have a well defined idea of what low hanging fruit is yet? [09:30] mjg59: RIGID AND BORING! except for UbuntuExpress [09:31] we also had the first of a series of desktop tweaking sessions [09:31] gdm, panel, and menus are all coming under scrutiny [09:31] argu^Wdiscussions about desktop tweaks [09:31] But as a baseline, we're looking at Gnome 2.14 + ancilliary benefits, right? [09:31] we will land proposed tweaks sooner for maximum feedback pre-freeze === seb_ [n=seb128@66.103.220.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:31] mjg59: yes === einheit_ [n=steve@66.103.220.160] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach_ [n=daniel@66.103.220.186] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:32] mjg59: 2.14 + shiny artwork + various UI sorts of projects [09:32] Ok. Are there any Dapper restrictions on Universe, or is it business as usual there? === seb_ [n=seb128@66.103.220.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:33] mjg59: we haven't in the past, and so far there hasn't been a proposal to change that [09:33] motu will likely have the same upstream version freeze [09:33] nor any obvious meltdowns as a result [09:33] mdz: this time we should make universe UVF explicit === seb_ [n=seb128@66.103.220.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:33] mjg59: the understanding was that we'll have a definite UVF [09:33] sabdfl: to what end? [09:33] the issue in the past has been MOTU's wanting newer stuff that affects dependencies in main [09:33] best we all rush to UVF together [09:33] <\sh> sabdfl: actually it would be nice with an add of two weeks [09:33] or the motu still struggling to finish major transitions in hoary/breezy [09:33] yes [09:33] \sh: + [09:33] I think ogra's proposal is for UVF, and 2 weeks for other NEW packages [09:34] Ok. So it sounds like we have a pretty good idea what the default situation in Dapper is going to be, with a small set of exceptions [09:34] we've always stopped the automatic sync for universe at the same time [09:34] and that's sensible still [09:34] yes [09:34] Was a decision reached about Dapper kernel policy? [09:34] we need time in universe to make things sane [09:34] 2.6.15, i believe [09:34] same version for desktop and server, with different patch sets [09:34] mjg59: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-roadmap-dapper [09:35] ok, any other comments on UBZ? [09:35] any questions from the floor? [09:35] ARE WE THERE YET? [09:35] it's not as cold as all that [09:35] esp. those not able to atttend [09:35] Treenaks is taking video footage of the lightning talks and presentations, to be published asap [09:35] nice [09:36] ogg rocks [09:36] ok, let's move along [09:36] mdz: you opened a spec for beagle integration, can we cross that bridge later, or you would like a spec this week or defer? [09:36] tseng: our current notion is to defer it as risky [09:36] mdz: id agree, as it stands [09:36] fair enough [09:36] sabdfl: Is there going to be a mail to u-devel describing the Dapper situation? [09:37] mjg59: are you volunteering to summarize? ;-) [09:37] I'd tend to think of Beagle as sufficient for main, if not necessarily desktop or ship [09:37] mjg59: good idea, we should announce each approved spec [09:37] mdz: Oh christ no [09:37] Movies: http://foodfight.org/movies/Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/ [09:37] yesterday we agreed to have a -devel-announce [09:37] reply to -devel [09:37] mjg59: beagle still has its issues at times [09:37] far less than before [09:37] and we will announce approved specs there... .approvers of the world take note [09:38] ...especially the ones not attending [09:38] one announcement per spec seems too high-traffic; perhaps we can batch it, one message per day [09:38] mdz: As long as I don't have to write 20,000 lines of powermanagementconfig code, I approve [09:38] otherwise we're going to turn off all our potential subscribers before we even get started === dereks_ [n=derek@cpe-66-108-44-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [09:39] mjg59: we do need your input on the power management config spec [09:39] mdz: sure, no problem [09:39] Kamion: sounds reasonable to me [09:39] Kamion: we can do the mail at the end of the daily approver meeting while at the conf [09:39] mjg59: lots of good discussion in that area but needs some technical guidance [09:39] if someone can bread-roll jdub and get him to click the "create list" button [09:39] Sessions using gobby on public addresses = win [09:39] ok, are we ready to look at new devs? [09:40] Keybuk: right [09:40] mjg59: it's so sweet :) [09:40] (If I could repeat that - SESSIONS USING GOBBY ON PUBLIC ADDRESSES = WIN) [09:40] do we have a public address? [09:40] somebody should write a gobby server which we could run in the DC or something. [09:40] like, headless. [09:40] somebody should fix gobby so it doesn't crash all the time :P [09:41] A gobby metaserver would be ideal [09:41] right, so developer candidates [09:41] But being able to give input into specs drafting while not being there makes the process a good deal better [09:41] But yes, developer candidates [09:41] two people have applied since the last meeting [09:41] anybody here applied for motu? [09:41] for core-dev [09:41] https://launchpad.net/people/aaron-bitchx and https://launchpad.net/people/siretart [09:42] mdz: siretart did for main === siretart is here [09:42] https://launchpad.net/people/siretart [09:42] but wifi is... unreliable ;) [09:42] sabdfl: yes, I applied for MOTU [09:42] dholbach: the TB has a convenient list in LP [09:42] for motu, it's six new applicants [09:42] https://launchpad.net/people/aaron-bitchx [09:42] bah, mdz beat me :p [09:42] aaron-bitchx doesn't appear to have a wiki page [09:42] He also doesn't appear to be here, unless I'm mistaken? [09:42] Kamion: yes, i was aware of that :) [09:43] mjg59: I also have no idea who they are === ajmitch doesn't recognise the nick as any MOTU [09:43] mjg59: nor is he a member of any launchpad teams [09:43] mjg59: also not an ubuntite, or member, etc. [09:43] Is "Farias" here? [09:43] Ok. Can we drop them until we have some idea who they are? [09:43] that guy was once in #ubuntu-motu [09:43] asking what he can do [09:43] question: should we explicitly decline candidates who propose themselves apparently at random and don't contact anyone? [09:43] <\sh> I think only siretart is well known now :) [09:43] afaik, he didn't move any fruther... [09:44] we don't currently have the ability to provide a reason, I don't think [09:44] mdz: it cuts down on noise [09:44] mdz: I'm inclined to suggest that they be non-prejudicially rejected [09:44] But making that clear may involve facilities we don't have [09:44] we don't currently have a way just to make those requests disappear === rob^ looks in [09:44] I think this is a problem to solve in the future, though [09:44] they obviously fail to prove to know how the process of becoming developer works [09:44] so, going systematically [09:44] Shall we move on to siretart? [09:45] sabdfl: could we have a "decline with a reason" button? :p === pitti [n=pitti@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:45] Keybuk: I smell a spec [09:45] hey pitti [09:45] In siretart's faviour, he's here and I recognise the name :) [09:45] hi pitti ;) [09:45] Keybuk: sure. nudge salgado or land it yourself :-) [09:45] :) [09:45] mjg59: he's also *here* [09:45] he also lent me a laptop, so he has my vote :) [09:45] siretart: what areas of main are you particularly interested in working on? [09:46] sabdfl: I'm currently concentrating on q/a, especially this revu stuff [09:46] sabdfl: I intend to help in processing merges in main and general bugfixing [09:46] dholbach-lite :) [09:47] tseng: come on :) [09:47] tseng: noone can compete with the dholbach [09:47] hrhr === magnon [n=co@photogeeks/magnon] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach blushes [09:47] aww. === seb128 [n=seb128@66.103.220.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:48] can some of the motu comment on siretarts current coding, package management, upload approach? [09:49] i'd be quite happy with siretart in main. he was both reliable in being active and his solutions themselves. he didnt just grab the low-hanging fruits and he has a good overview of what's going on. === ogra_ [n=ogra@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:49] siretart doesnt really have his head stuck in the packaging level (altough he is no slouch at that) [09:49] dholbach has just put into words exactly what I was thinking [09:49] and he's been a central part of MOTU in the last 8 months? 9 months? [09:49] he is an expert at management also [09:49] I'd also say that siretart was entirely competent doing laptop testing [09:49] and created REVU in one of the biggest boosts to motu productivity === tseng is a fan [09:50] and revu2/revu3 is looking good === siretart is honoured :) [09:50] dholbach, so he's about to be born into main ? :) === spayne [n=spayne@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:51] siretart: who would you discuss a low-level upload with? [09:51] can you give some examples of package that you consider a high-risk upload? [09:52] sabdfl: I'd say it depends, because I'd consider low level to be potential critical [09:52] the key packages are packages with large reverse dependencies [09:53] obviously this includes packages like libc or kernel, which I'd never touch without having someone working on it reviewed (that means my patch to that looked at) [09:53] siretart: did you make much of a contribution to any of the recent universe transitions? [09:53] dholbach: can you comment on that? [09:53] so especially library packages are critical, gnome has a lot of them ;) [09:54] siretart: do you run kde on any machines? [09:54] sabdfl: I think I've done a fair amount of cxx transition uploads [09:54] siretart: it's crucial that core developers be able to assess the risk of their changes before uploading, and seek advice if appropriate [09:54] mdz: absolutly. [09:54] siretart: can you explain how you would go about making those judgements? [09:55] mdz: this is such a general question. I'd go to the changelog, look at the people who worked on it, and asses which other package a diff could affect [09:56] sabdfl: he worked on the merges and on ghc6 and the unmet depedencies we tracked down [09:56] obviously this affects both reverse depends and reverse build depends in many cases [09:56] siretart: yes, it is very general. feel free to use specific examples to explain your reasoning [09:58] siretart: for example, a situation where you would go ahead with a change, and one where you would decide to wait until you had more information or review [09:59] sabdfl: I don't run kde on my machines, so I'd rather don't touch kde packages without being absolutly sure that I wont break anything. But installing kde on my private machine and testing kde is also no problem to me [09:59] mdz: I [09:59] argl [09:59] argl ? [09:59] mistyped === zul [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c2-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:00] I'd go on with and upload without notifying anyone else if I can really reprodoce the bug/problem and can testify that the bug is gone with that [10:01] obviously there can be bad side effects, I'm aware of that and try to avoid that [10:01] but there are also in main many easy bugs that can be fixed [10:01] think of merges in packages like diveintopython [10:01] or documentation packages. they don't have risk to break the whole system [10:02] all the same, they are not without risk. a broken diveintopython package will cause the desktop install to fail, and would delay a milestone or even a release === bmonty_laptop [n=bmontgom@wsip-68-15-230-31.om.om.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:02] err, in that case the package would be really broken such as in uninstallable [10:03] I think I've proven that I can check others not to produce such packages [10:03] so I'd consider myself competent enough to do such checks on myself [10:03] siretart: how would you check to see if the -desktop archive is currently installable? [10:04] debootstrap and apt-get install ubuntu-desktop? [10:04] on private repo with my 'testpackage; installed [10:04] siretart: that would work, yes, there's a daily report though [10:04] most dev's check it regularly [10:04] yeah, but only after I uploaded it [10:05] I thought this question would be about checking if an upload would break it [10:05] siretart: what other tools and methods do you use to test a package before uploading it? [10:06] mdz: pbuilder, and sbuild obviously, but I also find piuparts quite useful [10:06] for mass rebuilds, I find sbuild more convinient [10:07] how do you check whether you've made any of the common mistakes in your package? [10:08] I configured my debuild setup to run both linda and lintian by default, this catches to MOST common mistakes [10:10] siretart: and what was Keybuk's previous hair colour? [10:10] in a few of your uploads, you've actually converted the packaging system used (to dpatch in a few, and cdbs in another) to apply relatively minor changes -- could you explain your reasoning for doing so? [10:10] which hair? [10:10] mdz: I think brown ;) [10:10] how about a final round of questions, then a "yes" or "defer" vote? [10:10] I'm finished [10:11] I think Scott's question is a good one - converting between build systems increases the skew against Debian, which makes contributing patches back more difficult [10:11] Keybuk: I'd consider that now as a mstake. I had the misassumption that this would actually faciliate the work for the DD. after reading some discussion, like joeys rants about motus excessivly using dpatch, I'd rather agree to him [10:12] ok, calling for votes then [10:12] Keybuk: I'm about to process merges to packages I borked myself and undo that change, because debdiff is the state of the art tool for now :/ [10:12] siretart: If you're willing to evangelise in that respect, I'm entirely in favour [10:12] +1 from me, on the basis that i think he's touched a wide variety of packages in generally constructive ways [10:13] it was a misconception among the whole motu crew, to be honest - we discussed this in the last motu-meeting [10:13] +1 from me - I think he shows a good understanding of the issues involved, and is willing to accept that certain techical decisions were mistakes (which puts him ahead of many :) ) [10:13] indeed [10:13] +1 from me [10:14] +1, reflecting general thoughtfulness of process and judgement [10:14] YAY [10:14] siretart: congratulations and welcome [10:14] so [10:14] congratulations siretart [10:14] YAY! Thanks you all! :) [10:14] excellent :) [10:14] and welcome (further) aboard :-) === dholbach hugs siretart === Mez watches as evyone looks confused at the clapping in the room [10:14] quite funny [10:14] UniverseCandidates? [10:14] siretart: nice! :) [10:14] (or whatever it's called) [10:14] mjg59: ? :) [10:15] congrats siretart :) [10:15] mjg59: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev/+members === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:15] are there any MOTU candidates here? [10:15] mjg59: that's the wiki page for users suggesting new software for ubuntu universe :) [10:15] sabdfl: bmonty_laptop is here for a change [10:15] <\sh> siretart: rock...u have to pay the drinks tonight ,-) [10:15] hey guys, sorry I'm late, but can you still consider my MOTU application? [10:15] siretart: well done :) [10:15] siretart: congrats :) [10:15] dholbach: new tb member's duty is to filter those and predict which ones elmo will bump to multiverse ;-) [10:15] siretart: congratulations [10:15] https://launchpad.net/people/hestonbonapart, https://launchpad.net/people/ryoma-nagare, https://launchpad.net/people/loic, https://launchpad.net/people/changjiang98, https://launchpad.net/people/thisdyingdream === Florob [n=Florian@xdsl-87-78-45-216.netcologne.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [10:16] bmonty_laptop: are you in the list keybuk posted? [10:16] sabdfl: I'm loic [10:16] before we consider MOTU candidates, I'd like to make a proposal regarding core candidates [10:16] he is https://launchpad.net/people/bmontgom [10:17] mdz: ok [10:17] sabdfl: no [10:17] bmonty_laptop: ok, go ahead and propose yourself for the ubuntu-dev team [10:17] specifically, that we only consider candidates who have already participated in MOTU, unless there is an explicit consensus to fast-track someone where we have first-hand working knowledge [10:18] sabdfl: I think I already have, but let me check [10:18] +1 from me on that, with exceptions for DD's and other highly qualified folks [10:18] mdz: I thought that was the case anywya [10:18] mdz: I think that should be stated explicitly, yes [10:18] Mez: it's been implicit [10:18] Mez: not explicit yet === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:18] mjg59: this would allow us to clean out the list of ubuntu-core-dev candidates in launchpad [10:18] Mithrandir, in fact i'm just about to upload the latest gnome-screensaver to dapper [10:19] whoops ECHAN [10:19] yeah, +1 it's been pretty much an implicit so far [10:19] Unless there are pressing reasons for an exception, it ought to be expected that core developers are already engaged in development [10:19] ok, agreed then [10:19] sabdfl is cleaning out the list accordingly [10:19] sabdfl: lanchpad says I am already proposed and waiting for approval [10:19] I think there are enough paths to MOTU that anyone seeking to get involved won't have trouble finding their way [10:20] Ok, cool. [10:20] mdz: I'd agree with that [10:20] MOTU people? === smurf [n=smurfix@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:20] we actively pull people in whenever possible [10:20] Do we have anyone other than pef? [10:20] where there is interest. [10:20] bmonty_laptop: ok, see you now [10:20] bmonty_laptop: did you not show up at the previous meeting? [10:21] Keybuk: no, the last meeting occurs during my work hours [10:21] and I have no IRC access at work === Simira [n=rpGirl@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:22] should we also start explicitly only approving for MOTU those people who are already Ubuntu Members? [10:22] that's easy to check with launchpad now, we've only not done it so far because the CC held the list and we didn't [10:24] I would like to avoid a lockstep process where people need to show up for multiple meetings during different weeks just to go through the process [10:24] any ideas for how we can simplify it? [10:24] mdz: why the requirement for the irc meeting? [10:24] mdz: if they get MOTU - then they're automatically a member ? [10:24] most MOTUs worthy of approval can be vouched for by one of us [10:24] (make MOTU a member of members) [10:25] and already made a meeting for member status [10:25] i think we can let the TB approve membership directly [10:25] approved by CC members [10:25] in fact, i thought that was the PreHoaryPositionThatStayed [10:26] hm we have been implicitly implying membership all along ime [10:26] uh [10:26] implicitly requiring... [10:26] prehoary process was just a quick 3 votes at TB for maintainership [10:27] ok [10:27] the discussion rounf the table here is... [10:27] i'm proposing that we make the TB-can-give-membership thing formal [10:27] if developership implies membership, we need to be more rigorous about having developers go through the other bits of the membership process [10:27] and i'll put this on the CC agenda now [10:27] such as signing the CoC [10:27] sabdfl: agreed, should be discussed with CC [10:27] in fact, i'd like to propose that the forums guys can grant membership [10:28] could you be more specific with "the forums guys"? [10:28] on the basis that membership is all about a "substantial contribution", and they are in a better position to judge that for forum participants [10:28] elmo: ^^ PANIC [10:28] sabdfl: I can't hear any screams ... [10:28] i am panicing for him! [10:28] sabdfl, so let the forum guys vouch for them at the CC meetings [10:29] sabdfl: I think we should defer this to the CC meeting === pitti [n=pitti@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:29] especially for the sake of those who are staying up late to be considered for MOTU [10:31] ok, can we hear from our MOTU on bmonty and pef ? [10:31] have they been working with you so far, and if so, do you think they're ready? [10:32] i sponsored bmonty on a significant number of rebuilds to clear unmet deps [10:32] i think he moved onto to higher fruit after that, anyone else? [10:32] pef has been doing great stuff for KDE packages [10:33] he's been packaging faster than I can review but his pacakges are all good quality so far [10:33] can a MOTU wannabe say something? [10:33] LaserJock: if you have first-hand information to share, certainly [10:33] LaserJock: if its relevaant to the topic at hand, of course [10:33] pef as been helping keep packages up to date too which is cool [10:34] i reviewed quite a bunch of pef's packages, he really does a good job on packaging stuff and recently got involved in fixing universe bugs in malone [10:35] (yay for turns) [10:35] bmonty has helped me a lot learning to package and is one of the reasons I like to contribute to Ubuntu. He is friendly and professional and gives good advice. [10:35] oh yes, pef has been going through some kubuntu bugs, which is very welcome === tseng glares at Riddell some more [10:36] i reviewed some of pef's packages too... all of them were fine except sometimes small mistakes that could be simple fixed :) [10:36] tseng: Keybuk is attempting parallel candidate processing [10:36] bmonty worked together with bddebian in the hard times of merges/unmet-deps and they both ruled breezy-changes in that time. unfortunately i didnt work much with him, because i was busy with my thesis === crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:36] pef: what kind of things will you be doing in universe? [10:37] tseng: why? [10:37] mdz: an interesting tactic [10:37] Keybuk: fixing bugs and package applications, especially kde stuff [10:38] +1 for kde stuff :D [10:39] Keybuk: and help new motus, review their packages like motus are doing for me [10:39] just looked though pef's uploads, he gets a +1 from me, lots of good work there and think he'll be doing some good work for kubuntu === ogra__ [n=ogra@66.103.220.235] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:40] +1 for pef based on feedback from his peers [10:40] +1 - I'm happy with the feedback === thesaltydog [n=fabio@ubuntu/member/thesaltydog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:41] +1 from me too, with extra interest on the Kubuntu front [10:41] welcome aboard! [10:41] pef: congratulations to you [10:41] bmonty: looks like you're doing some good work, but I'd personally like to see you work a little more closely with the MOTU and come back and apply again in a later meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:42] Keybuk: work more closely in what way? [10:42] thank you all :] I'm really proud being a motu :) [10:42] congrats pef: welcome to the team [10:42] bmonty_laptop: if there are others on the MOTU team who have worked more closely with you, we would like to hear from them [10:42] bmonty_laptop: perhaps bddebian? [10:42] bmonty: don't be discouraged, but i would agree with keybuk and say i look forward to seeing you here again in a month or two, with some more packaging experience [10:42] pef: excellent work! well done [10:43] dholbach: thank you for being present here [10:43] bmonty_laptop: carry on how you're going, work on some more different kinds of packages across the archive and work with a few different members of the MOTU team [10:43] Riddell: thank you too :) [10:43] pef: de rien [10:44] bmonty_laptop: (For what it's worth, it took around a year from me applying to Debian to being able to upload anything) [10:45] pef: you're cool, keep up the kubuntu help! [10:45] k, I'll keep working at it [10:45] bmonty_laptop: So please don't be discouraged :) [10:45] bmonty_laptop: definitely, please do! [10:45] bmonty_laptop: we appreciate your interest and efforts so far [10:46] hey guys, this is discouraging, but I was having fun working on breezy and I'll continue to what I find fun with dapper [10:46] bmonty_laptop: (took me 3.5 years to get upload privileges in Debian.) [10:47] daniels: Those guys are nuts then. :) [10:47] Amaranth: not really, he was busy trolling them. [10:47] Amaranth: he was very very very 14 [10:47] Ah, this explains much. [10:49] So, anything else on the agenda? === mjg59 is busy thinking of the pub again [10:49] one last item [10:49] we have a new mailing list, ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com [10:49] http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce [10:49] to separate announcement posts from the increasing traffic on ubuntu-devel [10:49] +1 [10:49] everyone subscribe, kthxbye [10:49] Excellent [10:49] any other business? [10:50] developers will be using that to announce big changes, and keep everyone in touch with what's happening [10:50] I suggest that we encourage people at UDZ to enjoy Montreal while they can [10:50] likewise for those at UBZ [10:50] and those in Montral [10:50] now, where's the whiskey? [10:50] heh and what about others, still in europe? :) === wazza [n=warren@c220-237-178-175.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:50] right [10:51] meeting adjourned [10:51] thanks everyone for your participation [10:51] thanks mdz [10:51] And the whisky [10:51] thank you [10:51] Excellent. See you soon. [10:51] thank you ! [10:51] thnx === tseng [n=tseng@brandonhale.us] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === wazza [n=warren@c220-237-178-175.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["when] === pef [n=loic@ubuntu/member/pef] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Keybuk [n=scott@209.104.102.193] has left #ubuntu-meeting [""] === crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === seb128 [n=seb128@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === corey_ [n=corey@209.104.102.193] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === tapH20guru [n=tapH20gu@204.110.228.50] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tapH20guru [n=tapH20gu@204.110.228.50] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === doko [n=doko@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simza [n=rpGirl@66.103.220.242] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === _null is now known as _eins === sabdfl [n=mark@pdpc/supporter/silver/sabdfl] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === daniels [n=daniels@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting []