[01:06] <highvolt1ge> pips1: sorry, lost my connection there for a moment
[01:07] <highvolt1ge> pips1: you still here?
[01:08] <pips1> yes
[01:14] <highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting starting.
[01:14] <pips1> good stuff
[01:14] <highvoltage> Topic: Website plan forward.
[01:15] <mhz> yes!
[01:15] <highvoltage> No decisions will be made, we will merely discuss and get ideas together.
[01:15] <highvoltage> For the record, please state your name.
[01:15] <pips1> pips1 is Philipp Schroeder
[01:15] <mhz> present
[01:15] <highvoltage> ok, I think it's just the three of us.
[01:15] <mhz> so far
[01:16] <highvoltage> mhz: to answer your question, currently it's practically all moin.
[01:16] <mhz> indeed
[01:16] <highvoltage> but we want a CMS for galleries and all the nice stuff.
[01:16] <pips1> highvoltage, did Quim ever get in touch with you?
[01:16] <highvoltage> pips1: nope.
[01:16] <mhz> highvoltage: galeries? nice stuff?
[01:17] <highvoltage> yes, pips1, can you expand on all the reasons we want a cms?
[01:17] <mhz> afaik, Moin has a plugin that works cool as gallery
[01:17] <highvoltage> pips1 and i liked drupal, although it's based on php and because of security reasons, many aren't very happy with it.
[01:17] <pips1> mhz, I started some brainstorming in the wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
[01:18] <pips1> mhz, also have a look at this in particular: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration
[01:18] <highvoltage> mhz: i also suggest you join https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-website
[01:19] <mhz> wow, lot of info :)
[01:19] <highvoltage> Everyone else who may be reading may also join the edubuntu website team, if they are interested in joining.
[01:19] <mhz> before I start reading can I say something?
[01:19] <highvoltage> So, drupal isn't our best option. But there's also plone, which I like, and which many people find good.
[01:19] <pips1> mhz, on the latter page, there is a section "Wiki: Pros and Cons"
[01:19] <highvoltage> It's also technically sound, so we'll have little resistence to it.
[01:19] <highvoltage> pips1: you said you also liked plone?
[01:20] <pips1> highvoltage, to be honest, not that much
[01:21] <pips1> plone definitely has its merits
[01:21] <highvoltage> and if it was plone vs moin?
[01:22] <pips1> well
[01:22] <highvoltage> plone also has the benefit in that ubuntu.com runs on it.
[01:22] <highvoltage> hi jerome
[01:22] <jsgotangco> (didn't know there was a meeting) =)
[01:22] <pips1> hi
[01:22] <jsgotangco> hi =)
[01:23] <highvoltage> we're discussing the website, and the possibility of using a CMS instead of moin.
[01:23] <pips1> well, as i outlined on http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration, there are pros and cons...
[01:23] <highvoltage> any thoughts?
[01:23] <mhz> yes
[01:23] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: a CMS would have better ACLs imo
[01:24] <highvoltage> yes, that is one nice benefit.
[01:24] <highvoltage> pips1: so drupal would be your ideal choice?
[01:25] <pips1> yes, I guess there needs to be some control over "official" content
[01:25] <mhz> highvoltage: I think that before we propose to change the 'medium' (wiki, cms, whatever), we should only state what we think it is needed to accomplish, and analiyze how we can do it by using current infrastructure
[01:25] <highvoltage> mhz: agreed.
[01:26] <pips1> highvoltage, as I said on that wiki page, I don't have hands on Drupal experience, but it does seem to have very nice features and fill our "gap" nicely
[01:26] <pips1> mhz: agreed
[01:26] <mhz> pips1: i'm still reading the urls I've been pointed to, I can't find the 'gap'
[01:26] <highvoltage> pips1: plone has all the same features as drupal, or am I missing something?
[01:26] <mhz> with current Moin
[01:27] <jsgotangco> i'd prefer plone
[01:27] <pips1> highvoltage, AFAIK, plone doesn't have the same "taxonomy" feature/structure
[01:28] <highvoltage> pips1: what's "taxonomy"?
[01:28] <pips1> taxonomy is categorising content, so it can be accessed better (keyword search, but also automatic menu)
[01:29] <pips1> it allows you to create dynamic navigation menus
[01:30] <pips1> plone has that, but in a more "traditional" way, I think
[01:31] <highvoltage> ok, i understand what you're saying, I might have to look into that more closely.
[01:31] <highvoltage> do we want to use content that way though? wouldn't we have big overlap with the wiki?
[01:32] <pips1> well, integration is a good thing I think, so you would ideally want the cms to play together nicely with the wiki
[01:33] <highvoltage> true.
[01:33] <pips1> we definitely want to avoid duplicationg content
[01:34] <highvoltage> yes, well the way i thought about it, we should keep as much of the user-editable data on the wiki as possible, and as much of the "admin-editable" stuff on the website.
[01:34] <highvoltage> that's why i think the taxonomy won't be a big issue with plone anyway.
[01:35] <pips1> i have looked at the ubuntu website to get a quick overview of what information we need for edubuntu
[01:36] <pips1> the good news is: we can probably just re-use the most content from ubuntu.com
[01:36] <highvoltage> yep.
[01:36] <pips1> and so far I have only identified about a dozen "official" pages that need to be re-written for edubuntu
[01:37] <highvoltage> yes, i think it's important to keep a website such as edubuntu to as few pages as possible, too many pages are often confusing.
[01:37] <highvoltage> and we don't want to intimidate our users with too much information at once.
[01:37] <pips1> I am mostly concerned that we really make it userfriendly/ newbie friendly
[01:38] <pips1> yes!
[01:38] <highvoltage> :)
[01:38] <highvoltage> pips1: have you looked at http://www.creativecommons.org yet?
[01:38] <pips1> however, there is lots of information that people will want to know about if they get more deeply involved
[01:39] <highvoltage> i love the way they simplify things, the most important functions are two huge pictures on the main page. that's very nice, imo.
[01:39] <pips1> and we should make finding all that other useful "advanced" info easy...
[01:39] <highvoltage> yes, 100% agreed.
[01:40] <pips1> yes, creativecommons.org is good, what I like about it is that the content is layed out for the users perspective
[01:40] <highvoltage> yes, I'd like a similar idea for us.
[01:41] <pips1> and it is geared towards "user tasks"
[01:41] <mhz> pips1: highvoltage: I have read 3 urls, and AFAIK, so far, there are only 2 features I ignore if Moin has: forum and 'obvious' attachement and category.
[01:41] <highvoltage> so you can switch views, one page will be for users, with a users view, one for developers, with a developers view, etc.
[01:41] <pips1> i.e. the user wants to achieve someting and the labelling on the website reflects that task
[01:41] <mhz> pips1: highvoltage: the rest of the features mentioned, I think Moin can cover them
[01:42] <mhz> it is just a matter of how we set moin to work
[01:42] <pips1> mhz: shoot!
[01:42] <highvoltage> mhz: how intuitive is it? i've found that most users have trouble getting to terms with moin.
[01:42] <mhz> yes, Moin current version is not as user friendly as new Moin version (almost done)
[01:43] <mhz> new version has:
[01:43] <highvoltage> ah, nice. i think we should look into that then.
[01:43] <mhz> a full WYIWYG editor
[01:44] <mhz> also, any moin version can render herarquical  menus on left or right side, it all depends on CSS
[01:44] <highvoltage> ok, to be honest, i'm not a big fan of how moin currently works, but if it's going to change drastically, i think we should take a look at it.
[01:45] <mhz> news can be spotted "automatically" if we want them to be rendered on a front page (ie)
[01:45] <pips1> mhz: well, having "buttons" for text formatting is nice, but I still think that wikis are not very newbie friendly, unfortunately
[01:46] <highvoltage> what i do like about plone and drupal is, if we used that then we'd need very little other web plugins such as galleries, news functionality, etc.
[01:46] <jsgotangco> mhz: we need a working solution now, not a nice to have in the future :P
[01:46] <mhz> just a basic example: www.tecnocimiento.cl (1st page calls 4 pages)
[01:46] <highvoltage> looking...
[01:47] <highvoltage> mhz: do you have galleries in there?
[01:47] <mhz> for a more advanced example: http://www.druidwiki.org/
[01:47] <mhz> highvoltage: nop, but I can fetch urls that do
[01:48] <highvoltage> mhz: is that the new moin?
[01:48] <mhz> nop, that's the point. With old moin , you can still play a lot if we ant it to
[01:48] <mhz> :)
[01:48] <pips1> mhz: tecnocimiento: nice style :-)
[01:48] <mhz> thx (under development)
[01:48] <highvoltage> mhz: it still isn't very intuitive, but nicer at least. it looks like they've learned a bit from mediawiki.
[01:49] <mhz> yes
[01:49] <mhz> Moin gang quickly adpat to users need
[01:49] <mhz> hence, I always endup proposing to contact them and aske them how we can use Moin to cover our needs
[01:50] <mhz> if they say it is not possible, then of course we must change
[01:50] <highvoltage> okay, i'm making notes for the list.
[01:50] <jsgotangco> mhz: that's moin test? wow
[01:50] <mhz> highvoltage: i'll show you new moin now..
[01:50] <mhz> jsgotangco: which
[01:50] <mhz> ?
[01:50] <jsgotangco> oh wait
[01:50] <jsgotangco> this is old moin
[01:51] <jsgotangco> with some spiffy stuff going
[01:51] <mhz> hehee, yes
[01:51] <highvoltage> so far, we have discussed drupal, which is nice, but php based. plone is good, but not exactly as nice taxonomy as drupal. moin covers our feature wish list, but there are usability concerns.
[01:51] <mhz> and I've seen Moin sites that you'll never guess is Moin working there
[01:51] <jsgotangco> well i've seen mediawiki sites that don't look like mediawiki at all
[01:52] <mhz> highvoltage: usability concerns, we should list them and ask moin developers to answer
[01:52] <mhz> jsgotangco: lol
[01:52] <mhz> u're right
[01:52] <pips1> highvoltage, moin covers our feature wishlist?
[01:52] <highvoltage> mhz says it can!
[01:53] <mhz> i say that we can make it
[01:53] <pips1> well, I guess we need to discuss 
[01:53] <jsgotangco> where's the new moin sample?
[01:53] <mhz> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MauricioHernandez
[01:53] <mhz> edit that page, please
[01:53] <highvoltage> this is a mediawiki site: http://tango-project.org/Tango_Desktop_Project - nice eh?
[01:53] <mhz> and use the GUI 
[01:53] <pips1> we do need some access control for "official" content, no?
[01:54] <mhz> pips1: yes
[01:54] <mhz> pips1: moin can give you that if admin lets us :)
[01:54] <pips1> do we need an approval workflow or not?
[01:55] <highvoltage> pips1: i don't think so. we have wiki for that.
[01:55] <mhz> highvoltage: see? CSS work, mainly
[01:55] <mhz> that tango project is CSS work
[01:55] <pips1> ie someone drafts some official content and that needs to be proofread and approved before it goes live...?
[01:55] <highvoltage> yes, i understand that. but things like adding screen shots / photos in a gallery... is that easy?
[01:56] <pips1> highvoltage, do you know how henrik is currently working with wiki+plone?
[01:56] <highvoltage> i just don't get the 'rich' feeling from moin that i get from plone and drupal.
[01:56] <pips1> does he use an approval workflow?
[01:56] <highvoltage> pips1: yes, let me see if i can track him down...
[01:57] <highvoltage> i asked hno73 to join. not sure if he's at pc at the moment.
[01:57] <highvoltage> hi henrik
[01:57] <hno73> greetings :)
[01:58] <mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-1db8505849ee845d904c6e047f4d91dc130eb8a0
[01:58] <pips1> also, what are the ubuntu folks using for a) official news b) screenshots (image gallery)?
[01:58] <mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-93f5d33cba6ed9053f38e766b530bac0241344d6
[01:58] <highvoltage> hno73: do you remember the drupal discussion at the edubuntu summit?
[01:58] <mhz> hi, hno73 
[01:58] <hno73> highvoltage: right?
[01:59] <highvoltage> ok, drupal is almost a no-no since it's based on php
[01:59] <highvoltage> if we'd want to use it, we'd have to have very good reasons for it.
[01:59] <highvoltage> plone is a good option imo,
[01:59] <highvoltage> mhz says that moin is sufficient for our needs.
[01:59] <hno73> not sure what you are discussing just now, but I' about 2cm away from having moin working quite well as a CMS
[01:59] <hno73> in fact https://www.ubuntu.com/ is running moin now :)
[02:00] <highvoltage> since you're working on both plone and moin, we'd like your input.
[02:00] <pips1> hi hno73
[02:00] <mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-7b3ef0dfc3a812f857ed59d1efd9b988792cd589
[02:00] <hno73> pips1: hey :)
[02:00] <mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-6ccf6ec1018b7cdb416e7f06e9d889909602e0b7
[02:00] <hno73> Plone is completely broken
[02:00] <highvoltage> plone on ubuntu, or plone in general?
[02:00] <pips1> we are discussing about the best way forward for the edubuntu "official" website and the comunity "tool set", i.e. wiki, irc, etc
[02:01] <hno73> I mean really the Ubuntu plone site fell over and refused to come back up
[02:01] <highvoltage> geepers.
[02:01] <pips1> hno73, I was wondering what the heck is going on...
[02:01] <hno73> moin can do all you want and more, with a few tweaks
[02:01] <pips1> I was trying to access it all day long :-(
[02:02] <highvoltage> fridge and artwork, are those also moin?
[02:02] <hno73> yepp. I'm in the middle of a rescue opperation just now
[02:02] <hno73> fridge is custom stuff and art.u.c is based on art.gnome.org
[02:03] <pips1> hno73, since you asked about input from us, I drafted some thoughts on the wiki
[02:03] <pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
[02:03] <pips1> and in particular
[02:03] <pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration
[02:03] <jsgotangco> hi hno73 
[02:03] <hno73> hi jsgotangco
[02:04] <jsgotangco> what happened to the plone engine?
[02:04] <jsgotangco> even planet is borked
[02:05] <hno73> The plone site broke into 27 separate pieces and refused reasembly
[02:05] <pips1> huh?! wow
[02:05] <hno73> planet unwisely uses the header directly from the plone site
[02:06] <hno73> Yeah, so I'm trying to rescue it all now. I could use some help :)
[02:06] <highvoltage> hno73: i don't have access or much skill (i think) with that, but something i can do?
[02:07] <hno73> It could be an interesting exercise in 'how to build a website with moin'
[02:07] <hno73> highvoltage: It's quite simple. I just need to get a bunch of pages wikifyed
[02:07] <hno73> These pages http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/community
[02:08] <hno73> or rather http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/ etc
[02:08] <highvoltage> mhz, gsgotanco, pip1: ok, let's continue this meeting at another time and help out hno73, ok?
[02:08] <hno73> Need to go into a wiki, like http://69.60.114.106/
[02:08] <highvoltage> i think we've layed out most of the issues.
[02:08] <hno73> and then we can put it up on the new moin-based main site
[02:09] <pips1> highvoltage, agreed, we should leave the channel anyway because time is up, no?
[02:09] <highvoltage> yep
[02:09] <jsgotangco> sure let's move to edubuntu
[02:09] <hno73> thanks guys :)
[02:09] <pips1> ok
[02:09] <highvoltage> where can we take this further -doc or edubuntu?
[02:10] <pips1> highvoltage, sorry?
[02:10] <jsgotangco> sure lets do it in -doc
[02:10] <highvoltage> ok
[02:10] <pips1> ah, ubuntu-doc ?
[02:10] <highvoltage> --- meeting ended ---
[02:10] <highvoltage> yes, #ubuntu-doc
[09:32] <cyphase> hey everyone
[11:52] <ubuntu_demon> hi all
[11:52] <geekchic9> hello
[11:53] <ubuntu_demon> The community council meeting about the forums is in one hour right ?
[11:54] <Mez> yes
[11:54] <Mez> ish
[11:54] <ubuntu_demon> Daylights savings time just got changed here. And I'm currently running on a slow box with icewm (gnome has a nice utc capable clock) That's why I check :)
[11:54] <geekchic9> What is the community council going to discuss about the forums?
[11:55] <ubuntu_demon> the backyard and the new ombudsmen are the main issues I believe
[11:55] <ubuntu_demon> and the guidelines
[11:55] <geekchic9> Ah.
[11:56] <ubuntu_demon> geekchic9: are you active at the forums ?
[11:56] <ubuntu_demon> just curious
[11:57] <ubuntu_demon> well I'm back in an hour. ttyl :)
[11:58] <geekchic9> Eh, I'm probably not as active as some, but I read them when I have the time, ubuntu_demon