| Riddell | packager wanted http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=29207 | 12:11 |
|---|---|---|
| Riddell | ascii KDE screensaver thing | 12:11 |
| chmj | Riddell: can I, will use it to teach viviersf a few things | 12:13 |
| Riddell | chmj: viviersf? | 12:14 |
| Riddell | chmj: wold be cool if you got it packaged, the developer said he's had people want it for kubuntu | 12:15 |
| chmj | viviersf = Cain_SA = francis | 12:15 |
| chmj | ok, will do | 12:16 |
| Riddell | chmj: ah yes. great | 12:16 |
| chmj | viviersf: say HI to your new toy :-) | 12:17 |
| viviersf | huh | 12:18 |
| viviersf | the screensaver ? | 12:18 |
| chmj | yes, for packaging | 12:18 |
| viviersf | haha | 12:19 |
| viviersf | :) | 12:19 |
| viviersf | Riddell, changed my nick, should be easier for people to know who i am | 12:19 |
| viviersf | becoz CaiN is registered to some1 else | 12:19 |
| viviersf | chmj, will be kewl | 12:20 |
| viviersf | thx | 12:20 |
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| Riddell | now cain_ and viviersf ? | 12:41 |
| Riddell | hello claydoh | 12:41 |
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| cain_ | lol | 12:41 |
| cain_ | rofl wait | 12:41 |
| claydoh | hello Riddell | 12:41 |
| viviersf | better ? | 12:42 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: need a package for this ? | 12:44 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: not for the screensaver, viviersf is doing that | 12:44 |
| Tonio_ | k | 12:44 |
| viviersf | ya | 12:45 |
| viviersf | so that i can become a motu | 12:45 |
| Tonio_ | I missed yesterday's meeting..... | 12:45 |
| viviersf | i also want to look smart | 12:45 |
| viviersf | hehe | 12:45 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: are you a member? | 12:45 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: not yet.... | 12:46 |
| Tonio_ | I missed the last to meetings, lacking informations on the date | 12:46 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: isn't there a CC meeting today? you could go for membership there | 12:46 |
| Tonio_ | really ? | 12:46 |
| Tonio_ | well, isn't a wiki page needed first ? | 12:46 |
| Tonio_ | I didn't do it :) | 12:46 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: make one make one! | 12:47 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: is there any page that explains the different requirements to become a member ? | 12:47 |
| Riddell | I don't know if there is a meeting but someone on #ubuntu-meeting said there was one in an hou (and that was 45 minutes ago) | 12:47 |
| Tonio_ | last time I could introduce because there was a problem, I think with agenda | 12:48 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: any sustained and useful contribution | 12:48 |
| Tonio_ | can I had what I did with adept's icons and the kubuntu usplash too ? | 12:48 |
| Tonio_ | I think only packages have some interesst | 12:48 |
| Riddell | http://www.ubuntu.com/community/community/processes/newmember | 12:49 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: certainly can | 12:49 |
| Tonio_ | I'll do it right now, and calmy wait for the next CC | 12:49 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: and kubuntu-girl :) | 12:49 |
| Tonio_ | there is no emergency ;) | 12:49 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: haha ;) | 12:49 |
| Tonio_ | ho Riddell I saw your slideshow | 12:50 |
| Tonio_ | what a troll !!!!!!!!! in front of 90% gnome gurus !!! I'm really impressed !! | 12:50 |
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| Riddell | how did I troll? | 12:50 |
| Riddell | hello jubei | 12:50 |
| Tonio_ | not a troll to my view, but : | 12:50 |
| Tonio_ | http://kubuntu.org/~jr/kubuntu-below-zero/html/slide_3.html | 12:51 |
| Tonio_ | this, in front of so many gnome fans, waw !!! | 12:51 |
| Riddell | that's a reasoned argument, all very well behaved | 12:52 |
| viviersf | lol | 12:53 |
| Tonio_ | note that I agree with you, I defenitly love kde better than anything else, but I thought that in front of gnome fans that could be seen like a kind of joke, or gentle provocation ;) | 12:53 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: sorry for the confusion | 12:53 |
| viviersf | atleast Riddell has some fans of kde here supporting him | 12:53 |
| Tonio_ | viviersf: I am | 12:53 |
| Tonio_ | my personnal ethiq is to NEVER package a gnome application ^^ | 12:54 |
| viviersf | haha | 12:54 |
| Tonio_ | and I never did at least for the moment | 12:54 |
| viviersf | well Tonio_ | 12:54 |
| viviersf | kde isnt superior to gnome | 12:54 |
| viviersf | and gnome isnt superior to kde | 12:54 |
| viviersf | its just a matter of which you prefer | 12:55 |
| Tonio_ | to my view his architecture is superior | 12:55 |
| viviersf | and does what you want it to do | 12:55 |
| Tonio_ | but about the rendering and the fealing, that's of course personnam | 12:55 |
| Tonio_ | personal | 12:55 |
| Tonio_ | damn, my english is awfull today..... | 12:56 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: personal question, are you living in quebec actually ? cause I can see you're making efforts on your french actually ;) | 12:57 |
| viviersf | rofl | 12:57 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: non, j'habite a edibourg | 01:01 |
| Riddell | and these quebequois are so good at knowing if you are francophone or anglophone before speaking that I don't usually get much chance to speak french | 01:02 |
| Tonio_ | hehe | 01:03 |
| === Tonio_ is making his member page ! | ||
| Tonio_ | ho Riddell interested in the list of package I will soon upload (when kdelibs4-dev will install) ?? | 01:04 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: yes, put it on wiki page along with packages uploaded and in rev | 01:04 |
| Tonio_ | okay, I will add them as "in progress" so | 01:05 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: do you have a launchpad account? | 01:06 |
| Tonio_ | yep | 01:07 |
| === Tonio_ is waiting for kde to be added to rosetta... | ||
| Tonio_ | Riddell: I think it is in your plans right ? | 01:08 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuTranslations | 01:09 |
| Riddell | spec in progress | 01:09 |
| Tonio_ | nice | 01:10 |
| Tonio_ | I may contribute a lot to that when available | 01:10 |
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| Riddell | Tonio_: no membership requests at he meeting today | 02:10 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: that's fine. no fire arround, I can wait ;) | 02:11 |
| Riddell | sebas, Sime: is there any way we can make this more explicit? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuSystemTools | 02:39 |
| Riddell | can we create goals of things to acheve for dapper? | 02:40 |
| Riddell | hmm, late in europe I suppose | 02:40 |
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| Riddell | seth_k|lappy: that amarok beastie should be PENDINGUPLOAD unil it's in the archives | 03:15 |
| seth_k|lappy | Riddell, ah, my bad. I didn't know it was going to go into the archives. I'll twiddle the bits | 03:15 |
| Riddell | of course it'll go in the archives, we won't hvae dapper with an old amarok :) | 03:16 |
| seth_k|lappy | oh, I thought you meant Breezy archives | 03:16 |
| seth_k|lappy | bah, school has fried my brain :) | 03:16 |
| Riddell | no, but the development relase is the one that matters for beastie fixes | 03:16 |
| seth_k|lappy | bug fixed, sorry about that | 03:17 |
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| Riddell | https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-roadmap-dapper Approved! | 03:19 |
| Riddell | seth_k|lappy: don't worry, and thanks for tending to bestise, always very welcome | 03:20 |
| seth_k|lappy | Yeah, I hope to really focus on Kubuntu stuff for this dev cycle, it'll be the first full cycle I've been using KDE instead of Gnome | 03:23 |
| seth_k|lappy | switched a month or two after Hoary | 03:23 |
| seth_k|lappy | also Riddell, kmobiletools will be done Friday and barring any more comments, ready to go | 03:25 |
| seth_k|lappy | I've been using it for months so the remaining things are just polish; the package itself works fine | 03:25 |
| Riddell | seth_k|lappy: excellent :) | 03:26 |
| Tonio_ | 'night everyone | 03:38 |
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| seth_k | Hi Riddell, dholbach suggested that I did not need such explicit libqt3 build-deps. What should I use instead of: | 04:57 |
| seth_k | libqt3-headers (>= 3:3.3.3-7), libqt3-mt-dev (>= 3:3.3.3-8), libqt3-mt (>= 3:3.3.3-8) | 04:57 |
| Riddell | just libqt3-mt-dev | 04:58 |
| seth_k | right, thank you | 04:58 |
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| Riddell | hlloju | 05:21 |
| Riddell | hello jubei | 05:22 |
| jubei | Hi Riddell | 05:24 |
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| Tonio_ | mornin' | 09:49 |
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| \sh | who packaged libvisual for the new amarok? | 02:19 |
| Tm_T | not me | 02:25 |
| \sh | Mez: new k3b version | 02:30 |
| Mez | I know :D | 02:36 |
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| JRe | \sh: there are debian packages | 02:56 |
| JRe | \sh: unfortunately i think libvisual-plugins is broken | 02:57 |
| JRe | \sh: I know how to fix it if you're interrested | 02:58 |
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| Riddell | JRe: I'm sure he would love that | 03:47 |
| JRe | \sh: appart of from changing the version of libjack, you have to pass a flag to configure: specify the x include dir to /usr/includes/ | 03:48 |
| \sh | JRe: context now? | 03:48 |
| \sh | JRe: amarok, libvisual_ | 03:48 |
| \sh | ? | 03:48 |
| JRe | \sh: libvisual_plugins | 03:49 |
| JRe | \sh: that's why he can't build | 03:49 |
| JRe | s/he/it/ | 03:49 |
| \sh | JRe: u made the package, right? can u give me the url to the source packages? | 03:49 |
| JRe | \sh: I made the package but removed it because it has now an official debian maintainer | 03:50 |
| JRe | \sh: tough, the package libvisual_plugin does not build (see lamont buildlogs) | 03:50 |
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| JRe | \sh: for having libvisual integrated into amarok, take also the latest amarok debian's package it have the fix i made | 03:51 |
| JRe | \sh: plus very good polish of dato ;) | 03:51 |
| JRe | \sh: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/a/amarok/amarok_1.3.5-1/changelog it's from 1.3.4-1 | 03:52 |
| \sh | JRe: k | 03:53 |
| JRe | \sh: poke me if you have trouble with building libvisual_plugins | 03:54 |
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| \sh | JRe: why the hell libvisual_plugins is using gcc/g++-3.4? | 04:09 |
| JRe | \sh: because of incompatibility with gcc4 IIRC | 04:10 |
| \sh | gcc/g++-3.4 will go away | 04:10 |
| Riddell | 3.4 is compatible with 4.0 | 04:13 |
| Riddell | it's 3.3 that's not compatible | 04:13 |
| \sh | Riddell: yeah...but 3.4 will be demoted to universe | 04:16 |
| pef | Riddell: hello, I've synced gwenview, what's your opinion ? http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=862 | 04:16 |
| \sh | Riddell: so if u want libvisual_plugins in main ,) we need to fix it.... | 04:17 |
| Riddell | pef: great thanks, I'll try and take a look | 04:17 |
| Riddell | busy day in KDE land today | 04:17 |
| pef | ok :) | 04:17 |
| jjesse | Riddell: did you ever apply the stylesheet i asked for :) | 04:28 |
| Riddell | jjesse: no, keep poking me please | 04:30 |
| Riddell | anyone know a package made with scons | 04:32 |
| jjesse | Riddell: will do :) | 04:33 |
| jjesse | btw nice motd on #kubuntu | 04:33 |
| Czessi | hi, i build this package yesterday with scons: http://ubuntu.czessi.net/pool/breezy/testing/kleansweep_0.2.0-0czessi2_i386.deb | 04:34 |
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| \sh | why should we need libvisual-plugins...we have screensaver.. | 04:39 |
| \sh | means...libvisual-plugins are evil | 04:39 |
| \sh | JRe: checking where to install plugins... /usr/lib/libvisual | 04:47 |
| \sh | configure: error: conditional "HAVE_LIB_GL" was never defined. | 04:47 |
| \sh | build-dep on libgl1-mesa-dev and libglu1-mesa-dev that is | 04:48 |
| JRe | \sh: buildep on x11-proto-gl | 04:49 |
| JRe | \sh: wait a sec I search the real name of the package | 04:49 |
| JRe | \sh: x11proto-gl-dev | 04:49 |
| \sh | i think i had it inside... | 04:50 |
| Lathiat | nah nah | 04:50 |
| Lathiat | you want libgl1-mesa-dev | libgl1-dev, libglu1-mesa-dev | libglu1-dev | 04:50 |
| Lathiat | might not need glu | 04:50 |
| Lathiat | mm i lied its | libgl-dev and | libglu-dev | 04:51 |
| \sh | Lathiat: we will pull in libgl1-mesa-dev and libglu1-mesa-dev .. debian the ORed ones...or the buildds will read the OR statement from right to left | 04:51 |
| JRe | Lathiat: those packages seem to not exists | 04:51 |
| Lathiat | JRe: they dont | 04:52 |
| Lathiat | their so something else can provide the build depend | 04:52 |
| Lathiat | debian compat etc | 04:52 |
| JRe | Lathiat: k | 04:52 |
| \sh | no ways to get this | 04:53 |
| JRe | \sh: when I tried it, putting x11proto-gl-dev in the builddeps was fine | 04:54 |
| Lathiat | JRe: and broken | 04:54 |
| Lathiat | JRe: x11proto-gl-dev will be pulled in by libgl1-mesa-dev | 04:54 |
| JRe | Lathiat: tes it replaces | 04:55 |
| \sh | JRe: i have now at least all *GL* build deps in debian/control ... | 04:55 |
| \sh | libvisual-plugins is b0rked | 04:55 |
| JRe | \sh: :) | 04:55 |
| \sh | JRe: how did u build it then on dapper? | 05:03 |
| JRe | \sh: never tried on dapper only with breezly | 05:07 |
| JRe | \sh: i can't make the dapper debootstrap | 05:07 |
| \sh | JRe: create a breezy pbuilder and after that, replace the breezy archives with dapper | 05:10 |
| \sh | Riddell: should we bring amarok-1.3.5 in, and fix this crappy visual stuff later...thinking about leaving libvisual-plugins in universe? | 05:16 |
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| Riddell | Sime: about? | 06:18 |
| Tm_T | fucking annoying! | 06:19 |
| === Riddell spots his bad language hilight going off | ||
| Tm_T | can't rip audioCD, drive keeps flashing led... | 06:20 |
| Riddell | DRM? | 06:20 |
| Tm_T | can't be | 06:20 |
| Riddell | or scratched CD | 06:20 |
| Tm_T | can't be | 06:20 |
| Tm_T | buyed today, looks like this is ~18years old cd | 06:21 |
| Tm_T | and why it keep spinning cd ? | 06:22 |
| Tm_T | there's not a sincle app tha should read the disc | 06:22 |
| Tm_T | at very first time I'm forced to say this: I hate KDE 3.5 | 06:23 |
| Tm_T | maybe disabling "HAL backend" would help, maybe not | 06:23 |
| Riddell | if the disk can't be read that's nothing to do with KDE | 06:24 |
| Tm_T | err, I can play it | 06:24 |
| Tm_T | can't rip | 06:24 |
| Riddell | playing and reading are different, more error checking on reading | 06:25 |
| Tm_T | yu | 06:25 |
| Tm_T | have to try other cd's too | 06:25 |
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| Tm_T | ok, how I find out what app keep reading cd | 06:26 |
| Tm_T | annoying | 06:26 |
| Tm_T | ok, ripping problems with beatles, ac/dc ... | 06:31 |
| Tm_T | hmm, maybe my cd/dvd drive is broken | 06:32 |
| Tm_T | anyway, annoying | 06:34 |
| Tm_T | hmh, can't rip who either, I did rip this albums just a month ago | 06:37 |
| Tm_T | oh and I can eject it only as root | 06:38 |
| Tm_T | there really is something wrong | 06:41 |
| Tm_T | I give up, have to find old cardiscman -> | 06:45 |
| Tm_T | ok, rebooted and checked bios ... | 06:57 |
| Tm_T | well, now it again auto-opens kscd and konqueror -> trying mount | 06:58 |
| Tm_T | funny in a way | 06:58 |
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| jjesse | anyone know if there is a package for mod_ntlm w/ apache2? | 07:42 |
| jjesse | i couldn't find one by searching (either adept or using google) | 07:43 |
| Riddell | jjesse: I'm looking at KubuntuDocs and thinking that release notes should be split into the announcement and a quick guide | 07:45 |
| Riddell | http://help.ubuntu.com/quicktour/C/quicktour.html this sort of thing is really cool | 07:45 |
| Riddell | pictures and soundbytes | 07:46 |
| Riddell | and then there's this http://kubuntu.org/announcements/breezy-release.php which was based off the release notes but isn't quite the same | 07:46 |
| jjesse | yeah it is, you want one for kubuntu then? | 07:46 |
| Riddell | quick guide is so much more readable and grabs your attention | 07:47 |
| jjesse | you mean quicktour? | 07:48 |
| Riddell | yes | 07:48 |
| === mornfall kicks whoever bears the name StephanHermann | ||
| jjesse | i'll change KubuntuDocs | 07:49 |
| mornfall | adept *is* the frontend/backend split | 07:49 |
| Riddell | mornfall: \sh_away | 07:49 |
| Riddell | mornfall: where is this? | 07:49 |
| mornfall | Riddell: KubuntuPackageManager2 | 07:49 |
| Riddell | mornfall: can we talk with mvo now quickly? | 07:49 |
| mornfall | Riddell: yeah, why not | 07:49 |
| mornfall | quickly though :) | 07:49 |
| mornfall | i have exam to study for | 07:49 |
| Riddell | he needs lunch | 07:49 |
| mornfall | hmm, i could use a dinner :) | 07:50 |
| mornfall | can he give a rough time? | 07:50 |
| mornfall | i can appear for a talk at any reasonable time tonight | 07:50 |
| Riddell | hang on | 07:50 |
| mornfall | (reasonable is something before 2am :-)) | 07:50 |
| Riddell | 16:50 our time | 07:51 |
| mornfall | zone? (gmt offset?) | 07:51 |
| === mornfall has +1 | ||
| Riddell | 5 hours time | 07:51 |
| mornfall | in 5 hours? that's 1am, well... okey then | 07:52 |
| mornfall | --> dinner now | 07:53 |
| Riddell | no, 3 hours time | 07:53 |
| Riddell | mvo says sorry for the miscalculation | 07:53 |
| mornfall | okey np | 07:53 |
| Riddell | cool | 07:53 |
| mornfall | 11pm for me | 07:53 |
| jjesse | Riddell: is there a package i can install that will give me mod_ntlm for apache2? | 07:55 |
| Sime | hey | 07:59 |
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| Tonio_ | re | 08:16 |
| Sime | is Ridell busy eating??? | 08:19 |
| \sh | zepp | 08:21 |
| \sh | yepp | 08:21 |
| seth_k | Riddell, new kmobiletools upped, fixes dholbach's comments :) | 08:22 |
| Sime | will dapper ship with kernel 2.6.14 and FUSE? | 08:27 |
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| Riddell | Sime: hi | 08:35 |
| Sime | Riddell: Hi, I'm writing up a sort of Guidance plan for the next few months. | 08:35 |
| Riddell | Sime: excellent | 08:36 |
| Riddell | Sime: you and/or sebas should definatly come to the next ubuntu conference | 08:37 |
| Riddell | I suspect this spec process seems quite harsh to those who havn't come to a conference, but it's a great process for getting the distro done | 08:38 |
| Sime | Riddell: is there a general ubuntu mailing list that I should be on? | 08:38 |
| Riddell | Sime: there's kubuntu-devel and kubuntu-users (which sebas is quite good at answering stuff on) | 08:38 |
| Riddell | the synaptic, aptitude, dpkg and apt maintainers are all here too, need to get mornfall here for the next one | 08:39 |
| mornfall | where? | 08:39 |
| Riddell | ubuntu conference, montreal | 08:40 |
| mornfall | oh well | 08:40 |
| Riddell | the Smart developer too | 08:40 |
| mornfall | i'll be in a minority | 08:40 |
| mornfall | everyone's so python these days | 08:40 |
| Riddell | yeah, the Smart code is written in C but commented in Python | 08:41 |
| mornfall | i don't dig smart though | 08:42 |
| Riddell | I havn't seen it at all but those who have rave about it | 08:43 |
| mornfall | i don't see what it's got above apt, really... something significant i mean :) | 08:45 |
| mornfall | downgrades are not supported anyway (at least not within debian) | 08:45 |
| mornfall | and aptitude can solve those situations that smart claims noone else does :) | 08:45 |
| mornfall | well, at least it looks like it to me | 08:45 |
| mornfall | i haven't researched it in detail | 08:45 |
| Riddell | lets get mvo to explain it to us later, he seems to like it | 08:46 |
| mornfall | okey, why not :) | 08:49 |
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| Sime | Riddell: ok, you should have mail now. | 09:09 |
| Riddell | excellent, thanks, very useful | 09:10 |
| jjesse | need to get me for docs at the next one as well :) | 09:20 |
| Sime | Riddell: what would also be handy is a list of which configuration utils are still needed. | 09:20 |
| Sime | Riddell: and which config utils need improvement. | 09:21 |
| Sime | Riddell: i've got some ideas, but I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks. | 09:22 |
| Riddell | jjesse: am working on docs spec now | 09:22 |
| jjesse | how's it going? | 09:22 |
| Riddell | jjesse: fine, I need to ask corey about packaging. I also put in a note about We will use the Ubuntu Docs repository so it's clear we arn't forking like froud wanted | 09:23 |
| jjesse | good | 09:24 |
| Riddell | Sime: there is a bunch of suggestions on the current KubuntuSystemTools spec | 09:24 |
| Sime | Riddell: ...but not on the wiki yet. | 09:25 |
| jjesse | Riddell: well according to InclusionofDocumentation Daniel Holbach will be building the packages and uploading them | 09:25 |
| mornfall | \sh: hi | 09:28 |
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| mornfall | cool, so i'm now stuck with twm+xterm | 09:35 |
| mornfall | and fscking xorg died with sigsegv | 09:35 |
| Riddell | jjesse: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamPlansDapper FAQGuide and UserGuide going | 09:38 |
| Riddell | Sime: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuSystemTools under "Guidance" heading, second paragraph | 09:40 |
| Sime | Riddell: errr..... nothing appears to have changed here. | 09:41 |
| Riddell | Sime: no, I'm just pointing out the suggestions of config utils | 09:42 |
| Sime | Riddell: ok :-) | 09:43 |
| jjesse | Riddell: yes it looks like the FAQ Guide for Ubuntu-docs is going | 09:49 |
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| jjesse | Riddell: but it wasn't decided if Kubuntu-docs wants to keep a FAQ Guide or going to the Desktop Starter Guid | 09:57 |
| spstarr_work | any word on when beta 3 is coming? | 09:58 |
| spstarr_work | ive sorta got beta 2 with beta 1 mixed (artsd being broke, and kmail) | 09:58 |
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| Riddell | jjesse: I think we should keep as close to ubuntu docs as possible | 10:24 |
| jjesse | Riddell: so move to the desktop guide and ditch the FAQGuide | 10:24 |
| Riddell | spstarr_work: see developer.kde.org for the schedule. I'll be remaking the 3.5 packages next week and putting them into dapper | 10:24 |
| Riddell | jjesse: yes, seems the sensible thing, then we can borrow server guide too | 10:24 |
| spstarr_work | ok, i'll grab those as soon as they're out | 10:24 |
| jjesse | Riddell: what is the difference between ubuntu-server and typing server at the Kubuntu install splash screen? | 10:25 |
| Riddell | jjesse: see the seeds (SeedManagement) ubuntu-server includes a squillion more packages not on the ubuntu or kubuntu CDs, stuff like mail server or apache modules | 10:26 |
| jjesse | Riddell: ok | 10:26 |
| mornfall | Riddell: oh, btw, python bindings for libapt-front are progressing steadily... (we require swig cvs for now though): http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/libapt-front/libapt-front/trunk/swig/python/apt-cat.py?op=file&rev=0&sc=0 -- mvo may like that :) | 10:41 |
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| Riddell | mornfall: say that again | 10:44 |
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| mornfall | mvo: python bindings for libapt-front are progressing steadily... (we require swig cvs for now though): http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/libapt-front/libapt-front/trunk/swig/python/apt-cat.py?op=file&rev=0&sc=0 -- you may like that :) | 10:45 |
| mornfall | (thanks go to Torsten Marek) | 10:46 |
| mvo | mornfall: great news | 10:46 |
| Riddell | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuPackageManager2 | 10:46 |
| mornfall | the API will expand with adept 2 of course (the C++ one, and i believe torsten will follow) | 10:46 |
| mvo | I would like to make some comments about the feature goals for adept2 | 10:47 |
| mornfall | yes, go ahead | 10:47 |
| mvo | > automatic dependency tracking of some kind | 10:47 |
| mvo | this is going to be in libapt, daniel burrows (aptitude) and I where working on this and we ported the aptitude code into libapt | 10:48 |
| mvo | I would love if you would have a look and use that if that suits your needs | 10:48 |
| mvo | it's in a baz branch, not yet mirrored | 10:48 |
| mvo | > make it possible to hide the konsole somehow, unless it's needed for user interaction | 10:48 |
| mornfall | for that, yes, i have seen the apt code | 10:49 |
| mvo | there is a status_fd thing in libapt now that can be used for that, it should be fairly easy to integrate | 10:49 |
| mornfall | it broke my old code silently, i couldn't not notice :p | 10:49 |
| mvo | mornfall: it was improved a lot in the last couple of days, daniel and I worked on it | 10:50 |
| mvo | mornfall: did you use the apt--auto-mark branch? or how did it broke your code? | 10:50 |
| mornfall | mvo: the status fd | 10:50 |
| mvo | > advanced problem resolution algorithm | 10:50 |
| mornfall | the breakage was due to fact that a virtual function changed signature, so my override didn't get called anymore | 10:50 |
| mvo | daniel burrows did some great work in this area for aptitude and wrote a paper about it | 10:51 |
| mvo | we will very likely integrate it into libapt and make it availabe for the frontends | 10:51 |
| mvo | the paper is really great | 10:51 |
| mornfall | i have seen the code in action (haven't seen the paper) | 10:51 |
| mvo | > individual .deb installation | 10:52 |
| mvo | how do you plan to do this? I'm curious because I hacked it into apt a while ago but wasn't happy with the result. I tried a different approach that just analyzes the deb and sees if it can satisfy the dependencies | 10:52 |
| mornfall | well, two alternatives | 10:52 |
| mornfall | either make a local repo or install with dpkg and run fixing pass on the result | 10:53 |
| mvo | I hope my comments are helpful, I'm happy to help if I can (and feel guilty that I don't work on libapt-front) | 10:53 |
| mornfall | i guess i prefer first (it also gives you archival of the installed stuff) | 10:53 |
| mornfall | yes, no problem... i'd like to see more things adopt the libapt-front api of course :) | 10:54 |
| mvo | mornfall: a third alternative would be to analyze the debs dependencies before the install (with libapt-inst and see if the dependencies make sense). that's what I'm currently trying to do | 10:54 |
| mvo | as soon as I switched from svn to bzr/baz I will make a libapt-front branch | 10:55 |
| mornfall | for analyzing dependencies | 10:57 |
| mornfall | the right thing IMO would be to have the package graph in apt more flexible | 10:57 |
| mornfall | so you could drop in packages | 10:57 |
| mornfall | in the long run | 10:58 |
| mvo | I think daniel burrows new resolver can do that | 10:58 |
| mvo | we will (hopefully) be able to have both in apt soon | 10:58 |
| mvo | so that you can activate it in apt with "--new-resolver" and use it in the frontends easily | 10:58 |
| mvo | do you think the status_fd stuff is usefull for you? | 10:59 |
| mornfall | i would like to see a complete interface supporting that, not only the resolver though :) (like getting an entity::Package for it, etc) | 10:59 |
| mornfall | status fd, yes, i think so... | 10:59 |
| mvo | great. | 11:00 |
| mornfall | that's what i planned to use from the start | 11:00 |
| mvo | I hope to get translated package descriptions in as well | 11:00 |
| mvo | great again :) | 11:00 |
| mornfall | for i18n, well, yeah, libapt-front is a bit behind, i didn't really get around that... shouldn't be -that- bad though | 11:00 |
| mvo | it should be really easy (if it gets in and I get matts ok etc) for you to hook into it | 11:01 |
| mornfall | btw, is there some plan to work on the fetcher api? | 11:01 |
| mornfall | it's a bit... klunky | 11:02 |
| mornfall | i was thinking about just redoing it around libcurl, but haven't gotten any further than contemplating | 11:02 |
| mvo | we have at least some documentation for it now (in the --doxygen branch that will be mreged when I come back) | 11:02 |
| mvo | yeah, libcurl would be nice (and shuldn't be too hard) | 11:03 |
| mvo | I don't think I'll have a chance to have a look though | 11:03 |
| mvo | what do you think about some abstraction for "update" and "fetching packages"? | 11:03 |
| mvo | that should be doable in a reasonable amount of time | 11:03 |
| mornfall | i have those in libapt-front | 11:04 |
| mvo | http://people.debian.org/~dburrows/model.pdf | 11:04 |
| mornfall | they need some work | 11:04 |
| mvo | right, maybe they can be used as a starting point? | 11:04 |
| mvo | the url is daniels paper | 11:06 |
| Riddell | mornfall, mvo: for the kde equivalent gnome-app-install is it best to start with gnome-app-install and port to KDE or start with ept and make a simple user interface? | 11:06 |
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| mornfall | Riddell: start with ept | 11:08 |
| mornfall | Riddell: i also suspect it could be done a lot more efficiently than what gnome-app-install does | 11:09 |
| Riddell | mornfall: efficient in which way? | 11:09 |
| mornfall | Riddell: not needing to make all those .desktop files | 11:10 |
| mornfall | Riddell: it could make use of some sort of icon mapping, but short descriptions (and their translations) and package selection can be done in other ways | 11:10 |
| mvo | mornfall: we can't really avoid this I think. one problem is that we want to pressed with stuff that we haven't fetched yet (universe may not be enable in ubuntu) | 11:10 |
| mornfall | Riddell: for the first, apt database should do (with i18n support), for latter, i'd prefer debtags | 11:10 |
| mvo | mornfall: the other problem is that a major feature is that it represents the menu strucutre | 11:11 |
| mvo | so the menu information must be availabe | 11:11 |
| mvo | it not needed to put it in desktop files of course | 11:11 |
| mornfall | mvo: hmm, okey, that may be a problem... but last time i have seen gnome-app-install, the list was *huge* | 11:11 |
| mvo | yes, that is definitely a problem | 11:11 |
| mvo | it's a design goal to have most useful applications availabe even if the "universe,multiverse" stuff is not enabled | 11:12 |
| mornfall | and reflecting a menu structure, you need the icon and categories (and that's about it) | 11:12 |
| mornfall | and those can be done easily with debtags, i'd say | 11:12 |
| mornfall | just make special-icon and special-category facets | 11:12 |
| mornfall | debtags supports multiple data sources well | 11:13 |
| mornfall | so you can ship this separately | 11:13 |
| mornfall | hmm | 11:14 |
| mvo | right, so if it can be done in that way I don't really mind | 11:14 |
| mornfall | okey, there's still a problem with packages having multiple binaries | 11:14 |
| mvo | I just want to tell why we did it that way :) | 11:14 |
| mvo | (knowing that it's not really the most elegant way) | 11:14 |
| mornfall | if you stick to the .desktop files, i can still easily parse them | 11:15 |
| mvo | for g-a-i we will stick to desktop files because I will not be able to change the code to use something new for dapper (there are way too many open tasks) | 11:16 |
| mornfall | i will just see, i guess :) | 11:16 |
| mvo | but it's fine of course if you just use this desktop files and convert them to something else :) | 11:16 |
| Riddell | mornfall: any thoughts about making the sources.list editor more friendly | 11:17 |
| Riddell | i.e. at the moment it's just a grid of sources.list, but synaptic does nice things to make it more human readable | 11:17 |
| mornfall | mvo: if something, i'll probably convert it to a tagfile and add support for it to libapt-front | 11:17 |
| mornfall | Riddell: well, there's a definitive problem with synaptic's one -- you can't just paste a sources.list line you get there | 11:17 |
| mvo | ok, it would be nice if you would keep me in the loop if you do it | 11:17 |
| mornfall | Riddell: which is probably the most common use case ever | 11:17 |
| mornfall | mvo: sure | 11:18 |
| mornfall | Riddell: the other would be enabling/disabling/removing lines and adding/removing components | 11:18 |
| mvo | there is a "custom" button to paste sources.list entries | 11:18 |
| mvo | we hopefully have sources.list.d support soon | 11:18 |
| mornfall | mvo: oh, why that? sources.list.d sounds evil | 11:19 |
| mornfall | mvo: i definitely hate it in apt-rpm | 11:19 |
| mvo | mornfall: why don't you like it? | 11:19 |
| mvo | looks very useful to me? | 11:19 |
| mornfall | mvo: it complicates nearly everything related to managing sources | 11:19 |
| mornfall | mvo: want to disable one? need to find which file it is in... want to add one? need to figure where it belongs | 11:20 |
| mvo | but that's really not too hard. it makes adding stuff to sources.list in a automatic way incredible easy | 11:20 |
| mornfall | mvo: if it had hundreds of well-groupable items, i wouldn't say anything... but with the couple of lines it has, i'd say .d is overkill | 11:21 |
| mornfall | mvo: and adding to a flat file is hard? | 11:21 |
| mornfall | mvo: i'd say that if there's choice between "make a bit harder for user" and "make a bit harder for programs", i'd pick the latter | 11:21 |
| mvo | mornfall: it makes me very nervous to mess with the sources.list file. if I'm able to just add a file if the user clicks on "add something" and just remove that again if the clicks on "remove something" that makes me me less nervous | 11:22 |
| mvo | sources.list files tend to get pretty big for users quickly. especially if we get more sources.list entries (something that is planed) | 11:23 |
| mornfall | mvo: hmm, i haven't thought about it that way... and what happens if the user puts something in that "something" file and then clicks remove on that original "something" he added with a program? | 11:23 |
| mvo | obviously there will be some sanity checks, but I tend to think of the sources.list.d think as something that should really be auto-managed | 11:23 |
| mvo | but I agree that it's not perfect and has some semantic problems. but that can be easily hidden from the user | 11:24 |
| mornfall | mvo: unless he tries to use a text editor on it (and many will) | 11:25 |
| mvo | I tend to think that it really should be fine | 11:25 |
| mvo | i'm pretty sure we will get it, but we won't force anyone to use it | 11:25 |
| mvo | it's all optinonal | 11:25 |
| mvo | and there is a open whishlist bug about it on the debian page that is really old | 11:26 |
| Riddell | * mvo runs to the toilet | 11:26 |
| mornfall | as long as you keep the sources.list file and it takes precedence, i'm all fine with it | 11:26 |
| mornfall | (you actually make life harder for libapt-front too, since i will have to add code to merge those files) | 11:27 |
| Riddell | mornfall: any more thoughts on whether you want to try for a bounty again with this or if that's too much stress and you want to move on to new things | 11:28 |
| mornfall | Riddell: if you think bounty is possible, why not | 11:28 |
| mornfall | Riddell: i did it once, guess i can do it again :) | 11:28 |
| mornfall | if no, well, no catastrophe happens | 11:29 |
| mvo | mornfall: sources.list will still be available, yes | 11:29 |
| mornfall | and i always need cash, i'm a poor guy | 11:29 |
| mornfall | mvo: btw, i'm wondering how to approach with the libapt vs libapt-front split... | 11:30 |
| === mvo makes his own life harder as well as the synaptic edito will need to cope with it as well | ||
| mornfall | mvo: the overlap is growing... | 11:30 |
| mvo | in what way? | 11:30 |
| mornfall | let's say sources.list parser | 11:31 |
| mornfall | i have my own, that can also write out the file | 11:31 |
| mornfall | and do changes to it | 11:31 |
| mvo | right. would that we something that can be ported to libapt? | 11:31 |
| mvo | or do you rather want to have it seperated? | 11:31 |
| mornfall | mvo: the problem is, it's written using apt-front/utils... so direct port to libapt is not feasible | 11:32 |
| mvo | I think the overlap should be as small as possible | 11:32 |
| Riddell | surely libapt already has a sources.list parser? | 11:32 |
| mvo | what bits of utils are needed and can they be put into libapt? | 11:33 |
| mornfall | now, the problems are: libapt is managed with baz/bzr, libapt-front with svn/svk | 11:34 |
| mornfall | libapt-front api is radically different from libapt | 11:34 |
| mvo | is that the case for stuff like "sources.list" class as well? | 11:34 |
| mvo | have you tried bzr yet? you may like it, it's really well done (also very new) | 11:35 |
| mornfall | well, libapt-front's aptFront::Sources uses c++ stream operators | 11:35 |
| mvo | we will be able to merge from svn in the future as well | 11:35 |
| mvo | bzr will support that | 11:35 |
| mornfall | and it's using aptFront::utils::Range | 11:35 |
| mornfall | range in turn needs multitype and shared pointer implementation | 11:36 |
| mvo | IMHO apt can't be switched to libapt-front easily, so we will have to see what can be merged in the best possible way | 11:36 |
| mornfall | *and* i need to be flexible in changing all of this | 11:37 |
| mvo | right, but that is a problem | 11:37 |
| mornfall | i am used to xp/agile style development | 11:37 |
| mornfall | aggressive unit testing, refactoring on the go | 11:37 |
| mvo | I mean, if you need to be flexible, you need to maitain it in your own branch | 11:37 |
| mornfall | well, i have libapt-front because of that | 11:38 |
| mvo | yes, I know that | 11:38 |
| mornfall | question is, if we can converge this somehow | 11:39 |
| mvo | I don't really know what the way forward is here. I can offer you to merge stuff that you feel ready. obviously you will lose flexibility then :/ | 11:39 |
| mornfall | i of course could branch of libapt and merge it into libapt-front... but that's not very useful | 11:39 |
| mvo | why would you want to merge from libapt? | 11:40 |
| Riddell | mornfall: what's the reason for libapt-front to have its own sources.list classes if libapt already does (better API? more functionality?) | 11:40 |
| mvo | I mean, it's fine to branch from it | 11:40 |
| mornfall | Riddell: both better api and ability to modify the file | 11:40 |
| mvo | but it would be rather unfortunate if you would need your own libapt to support libapt-front ... | 11:40 |
| mornfall | mvo: well, i will eventually reimplement many parts of libapt, so i won't need -much- of it | 11:42 |
| mornfall | mvo: the graph/database access api is first | 11:42 |
| mornfall | mvo: also sources.list | 11:42 |
| mornfall | mvo: i am contemplating the fetcher rewrite | 11:42 |
| Riddell | mornfall: is your hope to eventually obsolete libapt by libapt-front? | 11:43 |
| mvo | you are free to do whatever you want, but I don't think that apt-get can be depend in the neat future on libapt-front, so apt/libapt needs to be maintained for a certain amount of time | 11:43 |
| mornfall | Riddell: i don't know... i'd prefer a merge of some sort | 11:43 |
| mornfall | mvo: yes i know | 11:43 |
| mornfall | mvo: i don't say rip libapt | 11:44 |
| mornfall | mvo: i can't replace it in the short-term, anyway | 11:44 |
| mornfall | mvo: what i can do is reimplementing the commandline tools with it and making them comparable to apt's own | 11:44 |
| mvo | I can only offer to take stuff for libapt that you feel should be there and I don't mind to put additional util code it as well | 11:44 |
| Riddell | mornfall: I think you should start to throw stuff back at mvo where it would be good for libapt to use what's in libapt-front | 11:45 |
| mornfall | Riddell: that probably won't work, as i need my hands free for development... putting to libapt is sort of like casting it into stone | 11:46 |
| mornfall | since i have very little influence over apt development, depending on some branch of it would kind of kill me off | 11:47 |
| mornfall | it was enough of a problem with konsolepart, which is much less central to the system | 11:47 |
| mvo | mornfall: my point is that you can have a *lot* influence in it's development | 11:47 |
| mvo | mornfall: there aren't that many people working on it (matt,me,dburrows) | 11:48 |
| mvo | so it's really easy to influce it's development | 11:48 |
| mvo | my problem is that I can't really put stuff like translated package descriptons into libapt-front because apt won't be able to use it | 11:49 |
| mvo | so I tend to think that certain things have their place in libapt and others in libapt-front | 11:49 |
| mornfall | i'm not sure what has (inherent) place in libapt-front | 11:49 |
| mvo | you want to have (eventually) everything in libapt-front :) | 11:50 |
| mornfall | that's because i want it to eventually become libapt :) | 11:50 |
| mornfall | the point is, what belongs to a library separate from libapt | 11:51 |
| mvo | ok, I have a appointment in a couple of minutes so I won't be able to be around for much longer | 11:52 |
| mornfall | okey, i will just try to make some sense out of all this | 11:52 |
| mornfall | the most pressing problem i feel between libapt and libapt-front | 11:52 |
| mvo | I hope I made clear that certain bits are better of in libapt at this point in time. and that benefits both libapt and libapt-front | 11:53 |
| mornfall | is that we use different paradigms for nearly everything | 11:53 |
| mornfall | from version control through development methodology to api | 11:53 |
| mornfall | and coding paradigm and style | 11:53 |
| mvo | yes, I noticed that as well. I don't think this is a bit problem though. because you can easily use (and wrap) stuff from libapt and reimplemnt them when you feel like it | 11:55 |
| mvo | if that is what you want to do anyway, then that's fine | 11:55 |
| mornfall | i do it right now, i am not sure it's the ultimate goal though :) | 11:55 |
| mornfall | but, we'll see how things evolve | 11:55 |
| mornfall | don't miss your appointment :) | 11:55 |
| mvo | as I said, I hope we can share as much as possible and I hope you see why I (for example) implemented the translated package descroptions in libapt | 11:56 |
| mvo | (and not in libapt-front) | 11:56 |
| mornfall | yes of course | 11:56 |
| mvo | (among other things) | 11:56 |
| mornfall | and that's fine | 11:56 |
| mornfall | i don't oppose that at all | 11:56 |
| mvo | I really really want to have close cooperation between the two projects | 11:56 |
| mornfall | i am only worried about the mid-to-long term... for short-term (like dapper), everything will be still fine enough and not much code will overlap | 11:57 |
| mvo | great, so let's have productive 6 months :) | 11:58 |
| mvo | if there is anything I can do for you (and libapt-front) let me know | 11:58 |
| mornfall | when i get the fetcher done, we can maybe see if the libapt-front utils+fetcher+sources.list classes could be shoved into libapt :) | 11:58 |
| mornfall | i am trying to keep things as standalone as possible | 11:58 |
| mornfall | right :) | 11:59 |
| mvo | if you are reimplementing those bits, what about rewriting methods/http.cc with libcurl? | 11:59 |
| mvo | or was that not the thing you had in mind? | 11:59 |
| mvo | sorry, didn't wanted to come up with another discussion topic | 12:00 |
| mvo | need to leave, I'll try to follow the stuff as close as I can | 12:01 |
| Riddell | mornfall: I'll write a spec for this stuff, I'll probably pass it by you, I don't know if it'll get approved at the conference but then we can refine it more if/when we apply for a bounty | 12:02 |
| Riddell | and the bounty stuff would have to be done soon so we aren't rushing again | 12:02 |
| Riddell | end of meeting | 12:02 |
| Riddell | thanks mornfall, mvo that was useful | 12:02 |
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