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Brunellusgreat googly moogly.01:54
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FLeiXiuSAll the loving you'll ever need Kass :-)01:55
ubuntu_demonhi all I'm ready :)01:57
Brunelluswho's gonna get this party started then?01:57
ubuntugeekdont think everyone is here yet01:58
Brunellusis there an agenda?01:58
Brunellusspasibo bolshoia01:58
Brunellusor words to that effect.01:58
azajacIt erroniously says 03:00 UTC on the agenda.01:59
azajacIt should be 01:00 UTC...01:59
Brunellusuh oh.02:00
ubuntu_demonthe UTC thing is confusing :)02:00
ubuntugeekwe'll give it one minute then we'll start02:00
ubuntugeekthis is logged right?02:00
ubuntu_demoneverything we say here is logged :-P02:00
azajacWe should wait for Sabdfl...  and the rest of the CC....02:01
ubuntugeekso lets get this party going.. i got 45 mins to devote to this02:01
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ubuntu_demonmy girlfriend is already sleeping for 2 hours (it's 2 am here) :)02:02
FLeiXiuSAnd my mom has already cooked dinner, so I;m stuffed :-)02:03
FLeiXiuS8PM here..02:03
Brunelluslet's roll, then, in deference of guys at >UTC.02:04
azajacYou cannot have a community council meeting withthout the community council...02:05
Brunellusok.  I guess that'd be axiomatic.02:05
ubuntugeekgo track them down azz.. cause my clock is a tickin..02:05
azajacI cannot reach them any more than you can....02:06
Kamionelmo's coming, sabdfl is in the room with me and is coming02:06
Kamiondunno where mako is, he's not in Montreal02:06
ubuntu_demongood :)02:06
azajacI thought there was a clerical error...02:06
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sabdflevening / morning / night all02:07
FLeiXiuSGood day! :-)02:08
DapperDrakemako will arrive at 21:00 Montreal time02:08
sabdfli'd like us to wrap this up well before that02:08
Kamionthat seems a bit too late, given that ubuntugeek's got 45 minutes02:08
Riddellare there going to be membership requests tagged on?02:08
sabdflRiddell: not tonight02:09
SeveasRiddell: if jjesse shows up perhaps02:09
sabdflthis is a special meeting with the forums leaders02:09
sabdfllet's focus on that02:09
sabdflany additional items for the forums meeting agenda?02:09
ubuntugeeknope lets get going02:10
sabdflok, first up The backyard02:10
azajacbackyard = Great idea!02:10
ubuntugeekcalm down cowboy..02:10
ubuntu_demonI think we should extend the backyard trial (I'm a mod)02:10
sabdflit seems like a good idea to have a general place for offtopic discussions02:11
ubuntugeekif you guys cant access it let me know i'll fix up the permissions..02:11
sabdflunderstandably, just banning those raises the general stress level02:11
sabdflso having a place to nudge them is good02:11
sabdflthe name "backyard" is a little prejudicial02:11
sabdflwe have #ubuntu-offtopic, i think, and that works well02:12
azajacI think it is in the sense of "take it outside!"02:12
ubuntugeektrue, but the question is a. do we allow them on the mailing list.. b. isnt the forums supposed to be about ubuntu and not other bullshit 90% of the readers dont want02:12
ubuntu_demonsabdfl: we have a community chat which is mostly off topic02:12
ubuntugeeki think the one thing the CC needs to see here is. They dont come to the forums.. Its different them IRC and Mailing lists. 02:12
ubuntu_demon(I mean a community chat forum)02:13
sabdflubuntugeek: you are creating a community of people who have other interests, its natural for them to meet online in the forums where there interests happen to overlap02:13
Brunelluscommunity chat still has some bearing on ubuntu and FOSS generally though02:13
sabdflthat's a good thing02:13
sabdflnot a bad thing02:13
sabdfla good community has that sort of diversity02:13
sabdflif the discussion is totally linear, you'll lose something02:13
ubuntugeekhave you looked at the BS posted in there?02:13
Kamionthis is one of the things that came up in the context of planet02:13
ubuntu_demonKamion: what do you mean ?02:14
azajacThe politics thread is impressively tame for forum standards...02:14
ubuntugeekuntil the CC actually uses the forums I dont think you can judge whats good and bad for it.. IMO02:14
sabdflubuntugeek: i don't say it's *good*02:14
Kamionthat it's healthy for a community to build social contacts as well as technical contacts02:14
sabdflbut i do say it's not bad to have ... what kamion said02:14
ubuntu_demonKamion: true02:14
SteveMyersagreed Kamion02:14
Kamionhence why planet.ubuntu.com is not restricted to things directly about Ubuntu02:14
Kamion(same for planet.debian.org, planet.gnome.org, etc.)02:15
zenwhenI think the backyard could use a name change myself as well.02:15
sabdflok, so can we agree that you guys will come up with a name that's not "talking down", and direct conversations there when appropriate02:16
sabdflalso, i would say, the CoC will be even more important where religious or political things are being discussed02:16
sabdflso nudge people there with a reminder of the CoC02:16
sabdfland lets see how that works02:16
ubuntu_demonI think we should trial the "backyard" some more before definetely agreeing on it02:17
zenwhenI think we could use someone moderating that forum. 02:17
zenwhenI think "unmoderated" opens things up too much.02:17
ubuntugeekzenwhen: then we get people crying to the CC about it02:17
azajacWe need to set rules:02:17
azajacwhat goes in there02:17
sabdfldon't moderate, just remind people of the CoC and apply your normal rules02:17
ubuntugeekwe need to just say no religion and politics02:17
azajacwhat criteria, that is02:17
zenwhenLet them cry. We don't need to provide them a place to be extemists.02:17
ubuntugeekzenwhen: when they cry I have to come to these meetings.. :)02:17
sabdflspeaking of which, ubuntugeek, i think your team came up with a great first cut of forums-specific guidelines02:18
azajacyou cannot talk about FLOSS and avoid politics...02:18
ubuntu_demonsabdfl: don't moderate ? even if there might be stuff offending to children ? 02:18
BrunellusWhy not post a Call for Discussion, usenet-style02:18
sabdflazajac: but you can talk about politics civilly02:18
Brunellusand come up with a charter, the same way that usenet does/used to.02:18
ubuntugeeksabdfl: have you looked at the topics in there?02:18
azajacand most people who use the forums do talk civily.02:18
sabdflubuntu_demon: clearly, that's outside the guidelines. i was saying don't apply stricter rules there02:18
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ubuntu_demonsabdfl: okay then we agree :)02:19
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zenwhensabdfl, I ahve been providing our admins with a little insight into the mind of a troublesome forum member.02:19
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sabdflzenwhen: ok. is that on this agenda?02:19
zenwhenThose troublesome forum members created the need for the backyard.02:20
zenwhenSo I would say so.02:20
azajacActually, a lot of moderators have posted stuff in the backyard...  02:20
sabdflKamion, elmo: anything to add?02:21
zenwhenI have avoided it at all costs.02:21
zenwhenI have no business there.02:21
azajaczenwhen:  That is your choice to make.02:21
bored2ksame here.02:21
zenwhenI do go into see if anyone is being just terrible to others though.02:21
azajacI am not particularly interested.  I tried it out.  Big deal.02:21
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sabdflok, i think we've covered this in enough detail02:22
azajacIt is an elegant alternative to editing and banning.02:22
sabdfllet's move on02:22
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ubuntugeeki see no one boths to answer me02:22
sabdflubuntugeek: i like the forum guidelines02:22
jjessesorry i'm late i had car issues :(02:23
jjessesome jerk cut me off02:23
sabdflubuntugeek: ?02:23
ubuntugeek20:18  <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: have you looked at the topics in there?02:23
sabdflubuntugeek: no, i haven't02:24
Kamionsorry, catching up because I was talking to jbailey about spec approvals02:24
ubuntugeekthen how can you say you agree with it .. go look02:24
ubuntugeekwe got a topic "FUCK" started by jon dodson just to see if he could02:24
sabdflubuntugeek: i don't necessarily agree with everything that's said in #ubuntu-devel either02:24
ubuntugeekwell i dont agree with this at all02:24
azajacTo be fair, people are testing the limits of this new thing....02:24
azajacIt has been up for a few days only.02:25
sabdflubuntugeek: just apply the standard guidelines, having an "offtopic" area isn't an excuse to ignore the CoC02:25
sabdfland jon dodson was clearly out of line on that front02:25
KamionI'd rather see it settle down into something a little more like sounder@lists02:25
ubuntu_demonazajac: that's why IMO we should extend the trial before reaching a decision02:25
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Kamionalthough with 40000 users, that may be a little much to expect02:26
ubuntugeekwhy cant we jut say no religion and politics and be done with it.. there isnt a need.. there hasnt been and wont be02:26
ubuntugeek50,000 users02:26
Kamionok, details02:26
sabdfli'd like to propose something for the CC to +1 or -1 on this, otherwise we will be here all night02:26
ubuntugeekyeah we will.. 02:26
fleixius_ubuntugeek: I agree with you 100%02:26
Kamionpolitics is a very broad brush; some people think the very existence of FLOSS is politics02:26
zenwhenI think banning Politics and Religion threads would be the best idea as well. I really don't want to see us become the gentoo forums. 02:27
Kamionor debating the direction of the movement02:27
fleixius_Computers have been nothing more then a huge merge with politics, I urge the push away from debates on politics on the forums..02:27
ubuntugeeki'm not saying ban debates.. but i dont see how religion fits into the forums02:27
sabdflproposal: rename "The Backyard" to something non-prejudicial, apply standard CoC and moderation approach, and let's see how it goes. The CC explicitly agrees that there *should* be a place for forums users who have a common interest in Ubuntu to discuss other things in which they are interested.02:27
ubuntugeekwe have people from all over the world coming there.. 02:27
sabdflelmo, Kamion?02:28
ubuntugeeki dont think its right..02:28
ubuntugeeki also dont think its right you are ruling without even looking at it02:28
ubuntu_demonsabdfl : by let's see how it goes you mean extend the trial and come back here in some time ?02:28
mjg59ubuntugeek: I think you've made your point quite clear02:29
KamionI've eyeballed the front page, which appears to contain all the threads in that area of the forums02:29
Kamionsabdfl has too, AIUI02:29
ubuntu_demonsabdfl: was that "yes" a yes to my question ?02:29
ubuntugeekmjg59: yeah and its gonna get even more clear..02:29
sabdflit was a yes i've looked at the page02:29
Kamionas azajac says, it seems likely that people are testing limits, and e.g. the anti-Microsoft topic isn't unreasonable02:30
zenwhen"Guns are stupid and no one should be allowed to own them."02:30
mjg59ubuntugeek: I think that's unnecessary02:30
sabdflzenwhen: it's an opinion02:30
Kamion"Linux is designed for programmers?" is basic but legitimate02:31
zenwhenSure looks like something our community needs.02:31
ubuntugeekok look..02:31
zenwhenHow does it help us reach our goals?02:31
zenwhenHow does it unite our community?02:31
sabdflubuntugeek: i'm also not ruling, i'm making a proposal and asking the rest of the CC to say whether or not they agree02:31
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zenwhenThe lines being tossed out in there serve to sever bonds and create animosity amongst our userbase.02:32
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Kamionlines like that are tossed out everywhere, frankly02:32
zenwhenThey dont have to be.02:32
zenwhenWe can have a rule against them.02:32
zenwhenSeems simple enough to me.02:33
Kamionso I think "apply standard CoC and moderation approach" gives the moderation team plenty of room for manoeuvre if people are truly out of line02:33
Kamion(from sabdfl's proposal)02:33
FLeiXiuSKamion: We already have this.02:34
zenwhengive them an inch....02:34
Kamionand frankly, yes, I do think there should be a place for people with a common interest in Ubuntu to discuss other things they're interested in, that's not so exclusive (or so linear) as planet02:34
ubuntugeekflex: agreed and thats why we are here today.. azz cried02:34
Kamionzenwhen: if you assume everyone's going to be an arsehole, they may well become one just to spite you02:34
FLeiXiuSPsh, pittiful...I should've known.02:34
zenwhenKamion, people will be arseholes. Some of them. All the time.02:35
KamionFLeiXiuS: please let me finish rather than heckling02:35
ubuntugeeki think the bottom line kamion is clear.. you guys dont have a clue about the forums.. and people see it02:35
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zenwhenWe have a lot of great users.02:36
azajacThe "backyard" is not shown by default to unregistred users.  That is why it is different from the community chat forum section.  It is a buffer zone.02:36
zenwhenWe also have some who are there to do little more than stir up flames.02:36
azajacI think I have a clue.  So do a lot of other users.  That is why I am here!02:36
elmomy vote is +102:36
ubuntugeekazajac: wasnt talk to you02:36
sabdflubuntugeek: we don't use the forums heavily, and we are trying to help you build a team that can manage it02:36
azajacubuntugeek:  This is a pain in the ass for me too, you know!02:37
Kamionso I see absolutely no reason why code-of-conduct shouldn't be sufficient to keep down people who are abusing a social contact area for flamage02:37
ubuntugeekwell i think your going in the wrong direction.. and frankly I dont think i want to be a part of it02:37
sabdflplease don't jump down our throats just because we don't necessarily agree with you02:37
sabdflthe point of this meeting is to discuss the issue, and there will be a diversity of opinions02:37
ubuntu_demonIt would be nice to have some more CC/cannonical looking at the forums. But I agree with sabdfl's proposal.02:37
FLeiXiuSsabdfl: I don't understand how it is you can help without knowing the community in which we all take part in managing.02:38
elmoI agree there should be a place for offtopic chat, I don't see a reason to special case religion/politics (people see FLOSS as both of those), and if the CoC and enforcing it doesn't work to keep people in line, that's an aorthogonal problem02:38
Kamion"no social chat" is IMO a missing-the-point response to the problem of people being arseholes02:38
sabdflKamion: +102:38
ubuntugeekwe got social chat in our community chat section.. it just doesnt need to be religion or politics02:38
Kamionyou have moderation and guidelines, use them; but if you try to forbid social off-topic chatter then people will work around you02:38
sabdflthe point of the CoC is to allow open discussion of almost anything inside this community, but getting people to respect one another, first, and have the discussion in an appropriate place, second02:38
zenwhenNo one said no social chat. We suggested not allowing th two topics that do nothing but create a rift in our userbase.02:39
Kamionzenwhen: "religion/politics" is as elmo says very poorly defined02:39
sabdflubuntugeek: those are both very real parts of life, i'm curious why you think they have no place in a set of forums?02:39
zenwhenDiscussion of politics and religion will do nothing to help Ubuntu and its users thrive.02:39
Brunellussabdfl:  for the same reason that you don't hang out on soc.politics in usenet02:39
ubuntugeekzenwhen: agreed02:39
Kamionshrug, I'm sitting here because of the politics that started the free software movement02:40
Brunellusthey tend to attract trolls and/or combative people02:40
FLeiXiuSsabdfl: Because it'll create a raft of flame and ignorance among plenty of users.02:40
jbaileyzenwhen: I'm not sure that's true.  The use of Ubuntu in nonprofits and religious communities could be a very real and beneficial thing.02:40
Brunellusthey tend towards non-negotiable absolutes02:40
sabdflBrunellus: i have no problem with asking someone to leave an ubuntu "space" if they refuse to respect the CoC02:40
sabdflnone whatsoever02:40
mjg59zenwhen: I think that claiming politics will do nothing to help Ubuntu is plainly wrong, given how inherently political the free software movement is02:40
mjg59In South America, free software is heavily tied into other political interests02:40
zenwhenKamion, its is very easly defined, and considering free software a "religion" is a little bit silly. Alos, by politics we don't mean not discussiong anything to do with politics of any kind. We mean abortion threads, gun threads, left wing/right wing threads....02:41
mjg59If you can find a way to avoid banning that while still banning what you want to get rid of without the policy seeming arbitrary, then I will be very impressed02:41
Brunellussabdfl:  all very well and good for you, I guess, as you're someone with supervisory permissions02:41
Brunellusbut on th forums, I don't have a killfile like I do for usenet02:41
sabdflguys, can i suggest that a more important discussion is the governance structure of the forums, which i think we have yet to address02:41
ubuntugeekwell its clear on the backyard issue.. lets move on and see what else will get destroyed02:42
sabdflBrunellus: in which case, your best bet is to create space for discussions that will happen in any case, and not frequent that space02:42
Brunellussabdfl:  I think I can agree with you on that point.02:42
KamionI'm sure sabdfl will hate me for bringing up the naked-people issue, but one of the inputs into that was from people running Ubuntu in bible colleges02:42
Kamionwas that argument religious? sure02:42
sabdflKamion: :-)02:42
Kamionand some people found it pretty annoying - but it was appropriate and relevant02:43
zenwhenSo lets discuss the existance of god on a linux forum!02:43
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Kamionso I would much rather you guys were thinking of relevance and appropriateness rather than religion and politics02:43
zenwhenthat will get ubuntu to the top in no time :)02:43
azajacIt is on top.02:43
zenwhenIt is?02:44
mjg59zenwhen: If you disagree with someone, please make an effort to actually counter their arguments02:44
zenwhenMicrosoft is gone now?02:44
FLeiXiuSThis reminds me, I was driving down 295 on my way home from DC and I happened to notice a linux fish on the back of the car in front of me.02:44
ubuntu_demonlet's stay ontopic :)02:44
zenwhenmjg59, I was atating that his agument didnt make sense.02:44
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zenwhenHe didnt explain why we should have general religion debates.02:45
SeveasSteveMyers`afk, DON'T DO THAT in here please02:45
Kamionzenwhen: that would fall under "irrelevant", not "religious"02:45
mjg59zenwhen: No you weren't.02:45
zenwhenHe smply mentioned a time religion became a part of another topic.02:45
Kamion01:43 < Kamion> so I would much rather you guys were thinking of relevance and appropriateness rather than religion and politics02:45
FLeiXiuSubuntu_demon: :-) It's a ramble about the religious perspective...02:45
zenwhenmjg59, don't tell me what i am saying.02:45
mjg59zenwhen: Politics and religion are both part of a great deal of appropriate and worthwhile discussions.02:45
zenwhenAnd there are tons of places on the internet to do that.02:46
ubuntu_demonI think everything is being said here. Let's just vote and move on to the next subject ?02:46
Kamionsabdfl reminds me I didn't vote, but I had intended to go +1, with the various comments I've already made; I think relevancy should be a much stronger criterion than particular named topics which don't really make sense in general02:46
mjg59zenwhen: And if it's appropriate to Ubuntu, it makes sense for it to take place on Ubuntu forums02:46
Kamion... make sense to forbid in general02:46
zenwhenI agree.02:46
FLeiXiuSI agree to ban these areas from the Community Chat02:46
ubuntu_demon+1 on sabdfl proposal02:46
zenwhenI never said Ubuntu related politcs threads shouldnt be allowed.02:46
sabdflok, that's 3/4 on the proposal, so please can we try that for 6 months?02:47
mjg59zenwhen: As has been pointed out, you shouldn't be concerned about politics and religion *in themselves*. You should be concerned about inappropriate conversations of *any* sort.02:47
Kamionwell, this is the problem with "religion and politics", by the time you've made it specific enough to actually work you end up with something that's entirely different02:47
ubuntu_demonsabdfl: 6 months is a lot of time on the forums for a trial maybe 2 months or something ?02:48
azajac2 months is good.02:48
zenwhenmjg59, Yes let us all wear blinders and not notice specific situations and try to deal with them.02:48
sabdflubuntu_demon: ok, fair enough02:48
sabdflzenwhen: that's a little personal for this forum02:48
zenwhenShoudl I have phrased that differently?02:48
zenwhenI think it was a valid point.02:48
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Kamionzenwhen: if you (plural, general) make blanket categorisations, you've got to expect people to take them literally, because human nature says they will when it suits them02:50
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FLeiXiuSWoops, My appologies.02:50
zenwhenOh well.02:51
KamionI understand that you're responding to things you see as problems; what I'm trying to suggest is that I think you're identifying the wrong pieces of problematic posts to moderate away02:51
sabdfli have another commitment in 10 mins, so i don't think i'll be able to participate in all of the discussion on forums governance02:51
sabdfllet me just make some observations quickly02:51
sabdfli think the forums guidelines are great, at least a very good first start02:51
KamionI agree, with the exception of the bits in them about the backyard which we've already covered02:52
sabdflon the dispute resolution teams, i think they would be more likely to be successful if it was in fact a larger group of people02:52
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sabdflany three of which could form a "DRT" to deal with a particular situation02:52
sabdflor something like that02:52
sabdflthis community is growing hugely quickly02:52
sabdfldispute resolution team02:52
sabdfland such a huge community needs a scalable framework of governance02:53
azajacI am concerned about how these will be chosen, if they are not already chosen.02:53
sabdflthe CC is definitely NOT scalable02:53
Kamion(and of course the moderation guidelines talk about religion threads etc., and again I'd refer to what I've said)02:53
sabdflKamion: +102:53
ubuntu_demonthe "forum resolutuon team" should meet more often than once a month IMO02:53
sabdflubuntu_demon: i think you need a large pool of trusted, experienced forums users that you delegate this authority to02:54
Kamiontrying to get everyone together once a month on IRC is tough02:54
sabdfllarge being 8-12 initially02:54
azajacWhat about them "meeting" in the open on a forum thread?02:54
sabdfland allow any three of them to deal with a situation, at a time that suits them and the people raising it02:54
Kamionit only works as well (or as badly ...) as it does in the CC because three of us are in the same home timezone02:54
sabdflthat way you have a lot of flexibility02:54
sabdflazajac: +1, appointment of these folks should be transparent02:54
ubuntu_demonsabdfl : okay I agree02:55
Kamionazajac: IRC has a lot of benefits for high-bandwidth communication, but I think whatever works for the team in question02:55
sabdfli would also expect there to be a smaller team of most senior people, with a leader, that reports  regularly to the CC02:55
zenwhenI would just like to make one more comment: If we are to allow topics which are sure to create a lot of work for our moderation team, soley based upon the discretion of the CC, where is the funding for all of this work coming from? UG pays the bills for the forums and now has to ask his mods to deal with flamewars.02:55
azajachttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndrewZajac/comments  I was told that the ombusdmen were already in place.02:55
sabdflif you look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrantingMembership you'll see that i would like to have forums participants granted membership BY forums leaders02:55
Kamionzenwhen: Canonical already makes a fairly sizable contribution there, as I understand it02:56
azajaczenwhen:  Moderators are not paid.02:56
zenwhenI didnt ask to be.02:56
azajacand a lot more users would volunteer, if asked...02:56
zenwhenMy point was that $900 is a small price to pay to delagate what 40,000 users should be able to do on forums you dont help moderate.02:57
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Kamion(GrantingMembership's up for discussion on Nov 8)02:58
ubuntu_demonnice idea (GrantingMembership)02:58
elmozenwhen: canonical offered to contribute more, that hasn't been taken up...02:59
elmohowever, personally speaking, I don't think moderation is something that should be linked to money in any way, it just introduces a whole new raft  of issues into an already complex situation02:59
sabdflfor GrantingMembership to be feasible, there has to be a trusted, transparent structure within the forums that can evaluate candidates and nominate them for membership03:00
sabdflelmo: +1, we would likely only cover costs of bandwidth, not pay for moderation03:00
ubuntu_demonsabdfl: I can understand that :)03:00
azajacRyan, are any moderators paid?03:01
zenwhenI would like to state once more that I would never ask for pay. My interest is in the community.03:01
sabdflok, i'm afraid i'm out of time. from me, it would be +1 to the current guidelines with kamion's mods taking into account the earlier decision03:01
sabdfland -1 on the current DRT plan, because i don't think its transparent and scalable enough03:02
Kamionour network access here is about to disappear apparently03:02
ubuntugeekazajac: no03:02
azajacOkay.  I didn't think so.03:02
sabdflso, i suspect we will have another round of this. can we make it in about two weeks?03:02
Kamion(it's not convenient, but it's out of our hands)03:02
sabdflor at the next CC?03:02
ubuntu_demonanyone: so how do we improve the DRT plan ?03:02
sabdflthank you all for coming03:02
sabdflubuntu_demon: i've made some suggestions above03:02
ubuntu_demonsabdfl: ok03:02
ubuntu_demonthnx everyone03:02
jjessedang it 03:03
azajacubuntugeek:  The ombudsmen, drt.03:03
azajacjjesse, poor you!03:03
jjesseeveryone gone?03:03
ubuntu_demonguess so. so I'm going to sleep. see you at the next meeting03:04
ubuntu_demonbye all!03:04
KamionI'm still here, but may have to switch network03:04
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jjessedid my nomiation get passed up? sorry i was late i had car issues and couldn't get home any soonerf03:04
jjesseor did the forums issue take too long?03:05
azajacjjesse, not, it did not get passed, but sabdfl had to leave, it seems.03:05
sabdfljjesse: i'm sorry03:05
jjesseno worries i'll try for the next one03:05
sabdflwiki page?03:05
jjessebeen working with docteam and Riddell on Kubuntu docs03:06
jjesseRiddell and Seveas can vouch for me03:06
Kamion+1 for Kubuntu doc work03:06
sabdflRiddell: ?03:06
sabdflSeveas: ?03:06
jjesseinclduing the creation of the spec for KubuntuDocs for DapperDrake03:06
Kamion... having followed up links and stuff03:07
sabdfli'll ask riddell in person tomorrow03:07
sabdflif he's happy, i'll +1 it03:08
jjessethank you sabdfl and Kamion03:08
sabdflelmo says he will do the same03:08
jjessei can try and get to the next meeting if that would help03:08
Kamionlooks like we're fine03:08
sabdflthanks for the contribution!03:08
sabdflnight all03:08
jjessethank you very much03:08
ubuntugeeksee ya thanks03:08
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KamionI still need to process membership additions in launchpad from the last meeting; it's on my queue03:08
KamionI'll do jjesse at the same time if sabdfl/elmo are +103:08
RiddellI voush for jjesse totally03:08
jjesse[21:10]  sabdfl: i'll ask riddell in person tomorrow03:09
jjesse[21:10]  sabdfl: if he's happy, i'll +1 it03:09
jjessethank you Riddell03:09
Kamionok, I think we're forcibly done03:09
Kamionthanks for coming everyone03:09
jjessehave fun in montreal03:09
Kamionsorry for the enforced shortness - I don't think we realised significantly in advance that network access would become awkward03:10
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Riddellmako: meeting finished03:27
Riddellmako: and internet here died03:27
makowell, i got here as quickly as i could03:27
makoRiddell: do you have logs?03:28
makoi'd like to know how things went03:28
Riddellmako: if you tell me how to get irssi to save a buffer to a log I do03:29
jdongooh, mako, long time no see :)03:29
makojdong: i'm around :)03:30
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makohow long was the meeting?03:32
Riddellmako: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-meeting-log.text03:32
jdongRiddell: I may be a mere mortal, but 403 :)03:33
bob2http://www.kubuntu.org/images/konqi-border.png appears to be 40403:33
makoah good03:34
makoRiddell: i was still looking up how to do that03:34
makojdong: i see 403 too03:36
=== jdong 's self esteem still intact :)
geekchic9So, what was the verdict of the Backyard?03:48
geekchic9Keep it or ditch it?03:48
geekchic9Ok, no one's talking...03:49
Brunellusprobably because it's pretty late, UTC03:51
Brunellusthe meeting was called for 0100 UTC03:51
geekchic9What time is it, UTC?03:51
geekchic9It's 20:52 here in Texas.03:52
Brunellusyup.  it's 21:52 here in Virginia so03:53
geekchic9So, did you see the meeting? What was the results?03:53
=== Brunellus scrolls up
mjg59geekchic9: Keep it for now03:54
mjg59And move on with the development of a policy for dealing with unacceptable posts03:55
=== geekchic9 nods.
=== Brunellus wishes for forums killfiles
mjg59So, the basic conclusion was to have another meeting to discuss a redrafted dispute resolution team document03:55
mjg59Brunellus: This is traditionally one of the problems with forums03:56
mjg59You have much less flexibility than with, say, usenet03:56
Brunellus...why I prefer usenet03:56
Brunelluswhy not have alt.comp.os.linux.ubuntu03:57
Brunellusor something?03:57
geekchic9That would be cool.03:57
Brunellusbecause I for one love usenet03:57
Brunellusit's cheap, in terms of time--no moderation needed, post an FAQ and a Killfile FAQ03:57
Brunellusand it's much more command-line friendly, for the guys who like that kind of thing03:57
geekchic9It's still important to have quality members in the group. Those are hard to find.03:57
Brunelluswell yeah03:58
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geekchic9I belonged to a slackware usenet group and they were great folk.03:58
geekchic9hi fadumpt03:58
Brunellusreally?  03:58
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:fadumpt] : Topic for #ubuntu-meeting is: Aghiendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/ | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 3 Noc 01:00 UTC: Forums Meeting | 4 Nov 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mjg59] : Topic for #ubuntu-meeting is: Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/ | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 3 Noc 01:00 UTC: Forums Meeting | 4 Nov 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
Brunelluslinux communities in general are not as good as ubuntu's has been03:59
mjg59Forums are a lot more accessible for most users03:59
Brunellusother communities may have more talented hackers03:59
Brunellusbut ubuntu has...erm...human beings.03:59
fadumptthe linuxcult and it's IRC room have been a great resource for linux03:59
mjg59The greater entry bar to usenet means you have quite a different set of people03:59
fadumptfor a few years now03:59
Brunellussee, usenet has never been a great barrier to me03:59
fadumptI've never really used usenet :-/04:00
Brunellusbut I guess that's because I like that sort of thing, and I'd been lurking on usenet since like...um... '92 or '9304:00
Brunellusand really got into it in like '96, '9704:00
fadumptI do know that #ubuntu on freenode isn't so hot for help04:00
Brunellus#ubuntu is turning pretty churlish04:00
Brunellusit was good around the time of warty04:01
Brunellusbut I'm detecting a definite 'tude there04:01
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fadumptlast time i was in there with a question, I ended up helping 2 or 3 people and never even got an "i don't know"04:01
Brunellusalso they hate it when you refer people to ubuntuguide, or what have you04:01
Brunellusit's like going to a Communist cell meeting04:01
fadumptthat's one think i liked about #ubuntu, they'll have that BOT point you to a good HOWTO04:01
Brunellusyeah.  but they've tended to be very "our way or the highway" when i've been in there...04:02
BrunellusI dont' know04:02
Brunellusthe regulars there rub me the wrong way04:02
Brunellus#ubuntuforums people, on the other hand, rule.04:02
fadumptI'll check them out04:02
jdongimo, #ubuntu is too hectic and busy compared to a forums setting....04:02
fadumptthat was the problem with #gentoo04:02
jdongno offense to any #ubuntu regulars here -- I respect your work04:03
fadumpttoo busy and chaotic04:03
jdongmaybe some people excel in such areas, but I like to concentrate on a problem at a time, and I don't like cross-noise in the process04:03
Brunellusit's a preference, totally04:04
fadumptwell I can keep up with my problem mixed in with others04:04
fadumptbut when they ignore you entirely and help others a lot04:04
fadumptit tends to be annoying04:04
Brunellus#ubuntuforums is just a nice community hangout with heavy support elements mixed in04:04
jdongfadumpt: agreed... and we (at least try) to make sure that never happens on the forums04:05
fadumptForums are different though04:05
jdongfadumpt: not to mention it's a lot easier to see on a forum when people are being ignored04:05
fadumptI can ask a question on a forum and over the few days it will get answwered04:05
fadumptyeah that's a good point, you can look for threads with 1 post and check those out to see if you can help them04:06
fadumptwhere if you miss a question in a chatroom then you come off as ignoring that person04:06
fadumptbut i asked my question 3 times and helped others, so I felt ignored :)04:06
Brunellusit's weird.  I didn't follow the meeting too closely04:07
Brunellusbut has anyone noticed a real disconnect between the forums folks and the wiki guys?04:07
jdongBrunellus: there are ongoing conflicts between the doc team and the forums folks04:08
jdongBrunellus: slander, miscommunication, banishment, you name it04:08
Brunellusthe doc guys don't come off so well04:08
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Brunellusa very "this is our club" air04:08
jdongbut that's a hairy thing I'm not in the mood to really discuss -:/04:08
jdongI might say something I'll regret in the future04:08
jdongBrunellus: but it does seem that way 04:09
_native_jdong, we cant have that. doesnt help the community much.04:09
BrunellusI don't have much contact with them, so 04:09
Brunellusit's a big internet;  if I don't need to hear from them, I don't have to.04:09
jdongBrunellus: likewise; other than burgundavia at the forums, I've come in little contact04:10
jdongBrunellus: minus our mods coming back from the wiki complaining about doc team defacing their wikipages04:10
Brunellusyeah.  maybe I'm retarded or something, but I hate using the wiki04:11
BrunellusI'd contribute more if it were easier....04:11
jdongnothing against wikis in general, but they do imply welcoming a community... not driving away offers of help04:11
Brunellusbut the whole wiki/launchpad/bugzilla thing just seems badly put-together04:11
jdongI like the lp system, but just not the "wiki replaces forums" attitude04:11
Brunellusas in, "forgotten password" links point to the wrong thing04:11
mjg59Brunellus: Uhm. Wiki guys?04:13
Brunellusok, bad nomenclature04:13
mjg59The wiki wasn't mentioned in the meeting04:13
jdongmjg59: OT discussion04:13
Brunellusbut there's a definite wiki/forum cleavage going on.04:13
fadumptwhat's cool about this room (so far) is no one is coming off as rude04:14
fadumptyou see that in a lot of rooms04:14
mjg59Brunellus: There was a distinct difference of opinion between some of the forum people and the community council in the meeting04:14
Brunellusfadumpt:  it's all in the spirit of the distro04:15
fadumpt#ubuntu they came off as rude04:15
fadumptit's the spirit of the room04:15
Brunellusyou have a point...04:15
jdongfadumpt: the rudeness at one point made it into the forums too...04:16
jdongwe worked hard to correct that...04:16
Brunellusthere are some borderline threads/posts/users04:17
Brunellusbut on the whole04:17
Brunellusit's a positive place04:17
Brunellusstill makes me wish for an alt.comp.os.linux.ubuntu04:17
poofyhairthe wiki is great for many things04:17
mjg59The wiki is supposed to be an information repository - somewhere to go in order to search for an answer04:18
fadumpti used the ubuntu wiki a lot back when i was setting up my Debian server recently04:18
mjg59The forums are somewhere to get an answer if it's not already documented04:18
poofyhairand to chat, and to connect to other users, and to hammer out ideas04:18
poofyhairthe wiki does a lot more tahn just guides as well04:19
mjg59Right. But that's as close as the two get.04:19
poofyhairboth are great tools04:19
mjg59They have distinct roles that complement each other04:19
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poofyhairthose two and mailing lists make a nice trio04:19
mjg59So any wiki replaces forums attitude is plainly wrong04:20
fadumptbasically that's like saying you don't need KDE becuase Gnome is better so let's get rid of it in all distros04:20
fadumptand remove choice over personal preference04:20
poofyhairbut you are right about the guide thing04:20
mjg59Well, it's not even that04:20
poofyhairit it an intersection04:21
mjg59It's We have bash, so we don't need gcc04:21
poofyhairthats why I asked for a note on the forum to ask people to add to the wiki04:21
mjg59The wiki and the forums do different things. There's no element of choice about it.04:21
mjg59The situation with ubuntuguide is a little more awkward, since historically it's contained incorrect information04:22
mjg59(And, on checking, still does)04:24
Brunellusok chaps.  I'm off.  keep on being great. 04:26
mjg59poofyhair: I'd certainly love to, but sadly writing my thesis has higher priority right now...04:26
_native_mjg59, whats your thesis subject?04:27
_native_*or the subject of you thesis. :-P04:28
mjg59RNA localisation in fruitflies04:29
jdongmjg59: if you can capture them all (PLEASE DO) I got donations towards your thesis :)04:30
_native_very cool04:30
mjg59There's as many species of Fruitflies in Hawaii as there are in the rest of the world put together, oddly04:31
mjg59So things could be worse04:31
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Riddellmako: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-meeting-log.text works now04:54
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nybbleI has a question... Our LUG is going to hold a 'con' in early 2006. I want to do a presentation on Ubuntu. Whom do I talk to about that. I need to know what the 'group' would like said about Ubuntu05:04
Riddellnybble: ask jdub or silbs about conference support, not on this channel though05:17
nybbleok thanks.05:18
Riddellnybble: or ask me about kubuntu support come to think of it05:19
nybbleRiddell: not in this channel though....05:20
Riddellexactly :)05:21
nybbleRiddell: lol..  PM or whats a better channel... (please dont say #ubuntu)05:22
nybbleRiddell: see you in #kubuntu05:22
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cyphaseBroadcast: Does anyone have Gobby installed?09:51
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manickaI have gobby09:57
cyphasecan you connect to me?10:03
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:rob^] : Topic for #ubuntu-meeting is: Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/ | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 3 Noc 01:00 UTC: Forums Meeting | 4 Nov 23:00 UTC: DocTeam | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
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rob^does anyone know when/time the next CC meeting is?11:23
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Seveasrob^, tuesday 14:00 UTC I guess11:59
Seveaswhich is midnight in australia iirc11:59
rob^great :)11:59
Seveas(but check that, i've messed up a lot already with DST ending)12:00
rob^yep thats correct12:00
Seveasyou're at east aussieland?12:01
Seveasworldclock now tells me that 14:00 UTC is 01:00 sydney12:01
rob^yes, they are on daylight savings time atm12:01
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rob^us in queensland are not12:02
Seveasah right12:02
Seveasstupid aussie-ers, can't even agree on whether to use DST or not :p12:02
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cyphaseDoes anyone have Gobby installed?08:24
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