[12:56] <ubuntu_demon> hi
[01:07] <ubuntu_demon> hi
[01:54] <Brunellus> great googly moogly.
[01:55] <FLeiXiuS> All the loving you'll ever need Kass :-)
[01:57] <ubuntu_demon> hi all I'm ready :)
[01:57] <Brunellus> who's gonna get this party started then?
[01:58] <ubuntugeek> dont think everyone is here yet
[01:58] <Brunellus> is there an agenda?
[01:58] <ubuntugeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsMeetingAgenda
[01:58] <Brunellus> spasibo bolshoia
[01:58] <Brunellus> or words to that effect.
[01:59] <azajac> It erroniously says 03:00 UTC on the agenda.
[01:59] <azajac> It should be 01:00 UTC...
[02:00] <Brunellus> uh oh.
[02:00] <ubuntu_demon> the UTC thing is confusing :)
[02:00] <ubuntugeek> we'll give it one minute then we'll start
[02:00] <ubuntugeek> this is logged right?
[02:00] <ubuntugeek> :)
[02:00] <ubuntu_demon> everything we say here is logged :-P
[02:00] <ubuntugeek> great..
[02:01] <azajac> We should wait for Sabdfl...  and the rest of the CC....
[02:01] <ubuntugeek> so lets get this party going.. i got 45 mins to devote to this
[02:02] <ubuntu_demon> my girlfriend is already sleeping for 2 hours (it's 2 am here) :)
[02:03] <FLeiXiuS> And my mom has already cooked dinner, so I;m stuffed :-)
[02:03] <ubuntu_demon> :-p
[02:03] <FLeiXiuS> 8PM here..
[02:04] <Brunellus> let's roll, then, in deference of guys at >UTC.
[02:05] <azajac> You cannot have a community council meeting withthout the community council...
[02:05] <Brunellus> ok.  I guess that'd be axiomatic.
[02:05] <ubuntugeek> go track them down azz.. cause my clock is a tickin..
[02:06] <azajac> I cannot reach them any more than you can....
[02:06] <Kamion> here
[02:06] <azajac> Hi!
[02:06] <Kamion> elmo's coming, sabdfl is in the room with me and is coming
[02:06] <azajac> Phew!
[02:06] <Kamion> dunno where mako is, he's not in Montreal
[02:06] <ubuntu_demon> good :)
[02:06] <azajac> I thought there was a clerical error...
[02:07] <sabdfl> evening / morning / night all
[02:07] <ubuntu_demon> hi
[02:07] <ubuntugeek> howdy
[02:07] <azajac> Hello
[02:08] <FLeiXiuS> Good day! :-)
[02:08] <DapperDrake> mako will arrive at 21:00 Montreal time
[02:08] <sabdfl> i'd like us to wrap this up well before that
[02:08] <Kamion> that seems a bit too late, given that ubuntugeek's got 45 minutes
[02:08] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsMeetingAgenda
[02:08] <Riddell> are there going to be membership requests tagged on?
[02:09] <sabdfl> Riddell: not tonight
[02:09] <Seveas> Riddell: if jjesse shows up perhaps
[02:09] <Riddell> ok
[02:09] <sabdfl> this is a special meeting with the forums leaders
[02:09] <sabdfl> let's focus on that
[02:09] <sabdfl> any additional items for the forums meeting agenda?
[02:10] <ubuntugeek> nope lets get going
[02:10] <sabdfl> ok, first up The backyard
[02:10] <azajac> backyard = Great idea!
[02:10] <ubuntugeek> calm down cowboy..
[02:10] <ubuntu_demon> I think we should extend the backyard trial (I'm a mod)
[02:11] <sabdfl> it seems like a good idea to have a general place for offtopic discussions
[02:11] <ubuntugeek> if you guys cant access it let me know i'll fix up the permissions..
[02:11] <sabdfl> understandably, just banning those raises the general stress level
[02:11] <sabdfl> so having a place to nudge them is good
[02:11] <sabdfl> the name "backyard" is a little prejudicial
[02:12] <sabdfl> we have #ubuntu-offtopic, i think, and that works well
[02:12] <azajac> I think it is in the sense of "take it outside!"
[02:12] <ubuntugeek> true, but the question is a. do we allow them on the mailing list.. b. isnt the forums supposed to be about ubuntu and not other bullshit 90% of the readers dont want
[02:12] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: we have a community chat which is mostly off topic
[02:12] <ubuntugeek> i think the one thing the CC needs to see here is. They dont come to the forums.. Its different them IRC and Mailing lists. 
[02:13] <ubuntu_demon> (I mean a community chat forum)
[02:13] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: you are creating a community of people who have other interests, its natural for them to meet online in the forums where there interests happen to overlap
[02:13] <Brunellus> community chat still has some bearing on ubuntu and FOSS generally though
[02:13] <sabdfl> that's a good thing
[02:13] <sabdfl> not a bad thing
[02:13] <sabdfl> a good community has that sort of diversity
[02:13] <sabdfl> if the discussion is totally linear, you'll lose something
[02:13] <ubuntugeek> have you looked at the BS posted in there?
[02:13] <Kamion> this is one of the things that came up in the context of planet
[02:14] <ubuntu_demon> Kamion: what do you mean ?
[02:14] <azajac> The politics thread is impressively tame for forum standards...
[02:14] <ubuntugeek> until the CC actually uses the forums I dont think you can judge whats good and bad for it.. IMO
[02:14] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i don't say it's *good*
[02:14] <Kamion> that it's healthy for a community to build social contacts as well as technical contacts
[02:14] <sabdfl> but i do say it's not bad to have ... what kamion said
[02:14] <ubuntu_demon> Kamion: true
[02:14] <SteveMyers> agreed Kamion
[02:14] <Kamion> hence why planet.ubuntu.com is not restricted to things directly about Ubuntu
[02:15] <Kamion> (same for planet.debian.org, planet.gnome.org, etc.)
[02:15] <zenwhen> I think the backyard could use a name change myself as well.
[02:16] <sabdfl> ok, so can we agree that you guys will come up with a name that's not "talking down", and direct conversations there when appropriate
[02:16] <sabdfl> also, i would say, the CoC will be even more important where religious or political things are being discussed
[02:16] <sabdfl> so nudge people there with a reminder of the CoC
[02:16] <sabdfl> and lets see how that works
[02:17] <ubuntu_demon> I think we should trial the "backyard" some more before definetely agreeing on it
[02:17] <zenwhen> I think we could use someone moderating that forum. 
[02:17] <zenwhen> I think "unmoderated" opens things up too much.
[02:17] <ubuntugeek> zenwhen: then we get people crying to the CC about it
[02:17] <azajac> We need to set rules:
[02:17] <azajac> what goes in there
[02:17] <sabdfl> don't moderate, just remind people of the CoC and apply your normal rules
[02:17] <ubuntugeek> we need to just say no religion and politics
[02:17] <azajac> what criteria, that is
[02:17] <zenwhen> Let them cry. We don't need to provide them a place to be extemists.
[02:17] <ubuntugeek> zenwhen: when they cry I have to come to these meetings.. :)
[02:18] <sabdfl> speaking of which, ubuntugeek, i think your team came up with a great first cut of forums-specific guidelines
[02:18] <zenwhen> Oh.
[02:18] <azajac> you cannot talk about FLOSS and avoid politics...
[02:18] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: don't moderate ? even if there might be stuff offending to children ? 
[02:18] <Brunellus> Why not post a Call for Discussion, usenet-style
[02:18] <sabdfl> azajac: but you can talk about politics civilly
[02:18] <azajac> yes.
[02:18] <Brunellus> and come up with a charter, the same way that usenet does/used to.
[02:18] <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: have you looked at the topics in there?
[02:18] <azajac> and most people who use the forums do talk civily.
[02:18] <sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: clearly, that's outside the guidelines. i was saying don't apply stricter rules there
[02:19] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: okay then we agree :)
[02:19] <zenwhen> sabdfl, I ahve been providing our admins with a little insight into the mind of a troublesome forum member.
[02:19] <sabdfl> zenwhen: ok. is that on this agenda?
[02:20] <zenwhen> Those troublesome forum members created the need for the backyard.
[02:20] <zenwhen> So I would say so.
[02:20] <azajac> Actually, a lot of moderators have posted stuff in the backyard...  
[02:21] <sabdfl> Kamion, elmo: anything to add?
[02:21] <zenwhen> I have avoided it at all costs.
[02:21] <zenwhen> I have no business there.
[02:21] <azajac> zenwhen:  That is your choice to make.
[02:21] <bored2k> same here.
[02:21] <zenwhen> I do go into see if anyone is being just terrible to others though.
[02:21] <azajac> I am not particularly interested.  I tried it out.  Big deal.
[02:22] <sabdfl> ok, i think we've covered this in enough detail
[02:22] <azajac> It is an elegant alternative to editing and banning.
[02:22] <sabdfl> let's move on
[02:22] <ubuntugeek> huh
[02:22] <ubuntugeek> i see no one boths to answer me
[02:22] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i like the forum guidelines
[02:23] <jjesse> sorry i'm late i had car issues :(
[02:23] <jjesse> some jerk cut me off
[02:23] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: ?
[02:23] <ubuntugeek> 20:18  <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: have you looked at the topics in there?
[02:24] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: no, i haven't
[02:24] <Kamion> sorry, catching up because I was talking to jbailey about spec approvals
[02:24] <ubuntugeek> then how can you say you agree with it .. go look
[02:24] <ubuntugeek> we got a topic "FUCK" started by jon dodson just to see if he could
[02:24] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i don't necessarily agree with everything that's said in #ubuntu-devel either
[02:24] <ubuntugeek> well i dont agree with this at all
[02:24] <azajac> To be fair, people are testing the limits of this new thing....
[02:25] <azajac> It has been up for a few days only.
[02:25] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: just apply the standard guidelines, having an "offtopic" area isn't an excuse to ignore the CoC
[02:25] <sabdfl> and jon dodson was clearly out of line on that front
[02:25] <Kamion> I'd rather see it settle down into something a little more like sounder@lists
[02:25] <ubuntu_demon> azajac: that's why IMO we should extend the trial before reaching a decision
[02:26] <Kamion> although with 40000 users, that may be a little much to expect
[02:26] <ubuntugeek> why cant we jut say no religion and politics and be done with it.. there isnt a need.. there hasnt been and wont be
[02:26] <azajac> 50000
[02:26] <ubuntugeek> 50,000 users
[02:26] <Kamion> ok, details
[02:26] <sabdfl> i'd like to propose something for the CC to +1 or -1 on this, otherwise we will be here all night
[02:26] <ubuntugeek> yeah we will.. 
[02:26] <fleixius_> ubuntugeek: I agree with you 100%
[02:26] <Kamion> politics is a very broad brush; some people think the very existence of FLOSS is politics
[02:27] <zenwhen> I think banning Politics and Religion threads would be the best idea as well. I really don't want to see us become the gentoo forums. 
[02:27] <Kamion> or debating the direction of the movement
[02:27] <fleixius_> Computers have been nothing more then a huge merge with politics, I urge the push away from debates on politics on the forums..
[02:27] <ubuntugeek> i'm not saying ban debates.. but i dont see how religion fits into the forums
[02:27] <sabdfl> proposal: rename "The Backyard" to something non-prejudicial, apply standard CoC and moderation approach, and let's see how it goes. The CC explicitly agrees that there *should* be a place for forums users who have a common interest in Ubuntu to discuss other things in which they are interested.
[02:27] <ubuntugeek> we have people from all over the world coming there.. 
[02:28] <sabdfl> elmo, Kamion?
[02:28] <ubuntugeek> i dont think its right..
[02:28] <ubuntugeek> i also dont think its right you are ruling without even looking at it
[02:28] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : by let's see how it goes you mean extend the trial and come back here in some time ?
[02:29] <mjg59> ubuntugeek: I think you've made your point quite clear
[02:29] <Kamion> I've eyeballed the front page, which appears to contain all the threads in that area of the forums
[02:29] <Kamion> sabdfl has too, AIUI
[02:29] <sabdfl> yes
[02:29] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: was that "yes" a yes to my question ?
[02:29] <ubuntugeek> mjg59: yeah and its gonna get even more clear..
[02:29] <sabdfl> it was a yes i've looked at the page
[02:30] <Kamion> as azajac says, it seems likely that people are testing limits, and e.g. the anti-Microsoft topic isn't unreasonable
[02:30] <zenwhen> "Guns are stupid and no one should be allowed to own them."
[02:30] <zenwhen> -azz
[02:30] <mjg59> ubuntugeek: I think that's unnecessary
[02:30] <sabdfl> zenwhen: it's an opinion
[02:31] <Kamion> "Linux is designed for programmers?" is basic but legitimate
[02:31] <zenwhen> Sure looks like something our community needs.
[02:31] <ubuntugeek> ok look..
[02:31] <zenwhen> How does it help us reach our goals?
[02:31] <zenwhen> How does it unite our community?
[02:31] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i'm also not ruling, i'm making a proposal and asking the rest of the CC to say whether or not they agree
[02:32] <zenwhen> The lines being tossed out in there serve to sever bonds and create animosity amongst our userbase.
[02:32] <Kamion> lines like that are tossed out everywhere, frankly
[02:32] <zenwhen> They dont have to be.
[02:32] <zenwhen> We can have a rule against them.
[02:33] <zenwhen> Seems simple enough to me.
[02:33] <Kamion> so I think "apply standard CoC and moderation approach" gives the moderation team plenty of room for manoeuvre if people are truly out of line
[02:33] <Kamion> (from sabdfl's proposal)
[02:34] <FLeiXiuS> Kamion: We already have this.
[02:34] <zenwhen> give them an inch....
[02:34] <Kamion> and frankly, yes, I do think there should be a place for people with a common interest in Ubuntu to discuss other things they're interested in, that's not so exclusive (or so linear) as planet
[02:34] <ubuntugeek> flex: agreed and thats why we are here today.. azz cried
[02:34] <Kamion> zenwhen: if you assume everyone's going to be an arsehole, they may well become one just to spite you
[02:34] <FLeiXiuS> Psh, pittiful...I should've known.
[02:35] <zenwhen> Kamion, people will be arseholes. Some of them. All the time.
[02:35] <Kamion> FLeiXiuS: please let me finish rather than heckling
[02:35] <ubuntugeek> i think the bottom line kamion is clear.. you guys dont have a clue about the forums.. and people see it
[02:36] <zenwhen> We have a lot of great users.
[02:36] <bored2k> amen.
[02:36] <azajac> The "backyard" is not shown by default to unregistred users.  That is why it is different from the community chat forum section.  It is a buffer zone.
[02:36] <FLeiXiuS> Haleluluja!
[02:36] <zenwhen> We also have some who are there to do little more than stir up flames.
[02:36] <azajac> I think I have a clue.  So do a lot of other users.  That is why I am here!
[02:36] <elmo> my vote is +1
[02:36] <ubuntugeek> azajac: wasnt talk to you
[02:36] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: we don't use the forums heavily, and we are trying to help you build a team that can manage it
[02:37] <azajac> ubuntugeek:  This is a pain in the ass for me too, you know!
[02:37] <Kamion> so I see absolutely no reason why code-of-conduct shouldn't be sufficient to keep down people who are abusing a social contact area for flamage
[02:37] <ubuntugeek> well i think your going in the wrong direction.. and frankly I dont think i want to be a part of it
[02:37] <sabdfl> please don't jump down our throats just because we don't necessarily agree with you
[02:37] <sabdfl> the point of this meeting is to discuss the issue, and there will be a diversity of opinions
[02:37] <ubuntu_demon> It would be nice to have some more CC/cannonical looking at the forums. But I agree with sabdfl's proposal.
[02:38] <FLeiXiuS> sabdfl: I don't understand how it is you can help without knowing the community in which we all take part in managing.
[02:38] <elmo> I agree there should be a place for offtopic chat, I don't see a reason to special case religion/politics (people see FLOSS as both of those), and if the CoC and enforcing it doesn't work to keep people in line, that's an aorthogonal problem
[02:38] <Kamion> "no social chat" is IMO a missing-the-point response to the problem of people being arseholes
[02:38] <sabdfl> Kamion: +1
[02:38] <ubuntugeek> we got social chat in our community chat section.. it just doesnt need to be religion or politics
[02:38] <Kamion> you have moderation and guidelines, use them; but if you try to forbid social off-topic chatter then people will work around you
[02:38] <sabdfl> the point of the CoC is to allow open discussion of almost anything inside this community, but getting people to respect one another, first, and have the discussion in an appropriate place, second
[02:39] <zenwhen> No one said no social chat. We suggested not allowing th two topics that do nothing but create a rift in our userbase.
[02:39] <Kamion> zenwhen: "religion/politics" is as elmo says very poorly defined
[02:39] <sabdfl> ubuntugeek: those are both very real parts of life, i'm curious why you think they have no place in a set of forums?
[02:39] <zenwhen> Discussion of politics and religion will do nothing to help Ubuntu and its users thrive.
[02:39] <Brunellus> sabdfl:  for the same reason that you don't hang out on soc.politics in usenet
[02:39] <ubuntugeek> zenwhen: agreed
[02:40] <Kamion> shrug, I'm sitting here because of the politics that started the free software movement
[02:40] <Brunellus> they tend to attract trolls and/or combative people
[02:40] <FLeiXiuS> sabdfl: Because it'll create a raft of flame and ignorance among plenty of users.
[02:40] <jbailey> zenwhen: I'm not sure that's true.  The use of Ubuntu in nonprofits and religious communities could be a very real and beneficial thing.
[02:40] <Brunellus> they tend towards non-negotiable absolutes
[02:40] <sabdfl> Brunellus: i have no problem with asking someone to leave an ubuntu "space" if they refuse to respect the CoC
[02:40] <sabdfl> none whatsoever
[02:40] <mjg59> zenwhen: I think that claiming politics will do nothing to help Ubuntu is plainly wrong, given how inherently political the free software movement is
[02:40] <mjg59> In South America, free software is heavily tied into other political interests
[02:41] <zenwhen> Kamion, its is very easly defined, and considering free software a "religion" is a little bit silly. Alos, by politics we don't mean not discussiong anything to do with politics of any kind. We mean abortion threads, gun threads, left wing/right wing threads....
[02:41] <mjg59> If you can find a way to avoid banning that while still banning what you want to get rid of without the policy seeming arbitrary, then I will be very impressed
[02:41] <Brunellus> sabdfl:  all very well and good for you, I guess, as you're someone with supervisory permissions
[02:41] <Brunellus> but on th forums, I don't have a killfile like I do for usenet
[02:41] <sabdfl> guys, can i suggest that a more important discussion is the governance structure of the forums, which i think we have yet to address
[02:42] <ubuntugeek> well its clear on the backyard issue.. lets move on and see what else will get destroyed
[02:42] <sabdfl> Brunellus: in which case, your best bet is to create space for discussions that will happen in any case, and not frequent that space
[02:42] <Brunellus> sabdfl:  I think I can agree with you on that point.
[02:42] <Kamion> I'm sure sabdfl will hate me for bringing up the naked-people issue, but one of the inputs into that was from people running Ubuntu in bible colleges
[02:42] <Kamion> was that argument religious? sure
[02:42] <sabdfl> Kamion: :-)
[02:43] <Kamion> and some people found it pretty annoying - but it was appropriate and relevant
[02:43] <zenwhen> So lets discuss the existance of god on a linux forum!
[02:43] <Kamion> so I would much rather you guys were thinking of relevance and appropriateness rather than religion and politics
[02:43] <zenwhen> that will get ubuntu to the top in no time :)
[02:43] <azajac> It is on top.
[02:44] <zenwhen> It is?
[02:44] <mjg59> zenwhen: If you disagree with someone, please make an effort to actually counter their arguments
[02:44] <zenwhen> Microsoft is gone now?
[02:44] <zenwhen> awesome.
[02:44] <FLeiXiuS> This reminds me, I was driving down 295 on my way home from DC and I happened to notice a linux fish on the back of the car in front of me.
[02:44] <ubuntu_demon> let's stay ontopic :)
[02:44] <FLeiXiuS> Coincidence...
[02:44] <zenwhen> mjg59, I was atating that his agument didnt make sense.
[02:45] <zenwhen> He didnt explain why we should have general religion debates.
[02:45] <Seveas> SteveMyers`afk, DON'T DO THAT in here please
[02:45] <Kamion> zenwhen: that would fall under "irrelevant", not "religious"
[02:45] <Kamion> surely
[02:45] <mjg59> zenwhen: No you weren't.
[02:45] <zenwhen> He smply mentioned a time religion became a part of another topic.
[02:45] <Kamion> 01:43 < Kamion> so I would much rather you guys were thinking of relevance and appropriateness rather than religion and politics
[02:45] <FLeiXiuS> ubuntu_demon: :-) It's a ramble about the religious perspective...
[02:45] <zenwhen> mjg59, don't tell me what i am saying.
[02:45] <zenwhen> :)
[02:45] <mjg59> zenwhen: Politics and religion are both part of a great deal of appropriate and worthwhile discussions.
[02:46] <zenwhen> And there are tons of places on the internet to do that.
[02:46] <ubuntu_demon> I think everything is being said here. Let's just vote and move on to the next subject ?
[02:46] <Kamion> sabdfl reminds me I didn't vote, but I had intended to go +1, with the various comments I've already made; I think relevancy should be a much stronger criterion than particular named topics which don't really make sense in general
[02:46] <mjg59> zenwhen: And if it's appropriate to Ubuntu, it makes sense for it to take place on Ubuntu forums
[02:46] <Kamion> ... make sense to forbid in general
[02:46] <zenwhen> I agree.
[02:46] <FLeiXiuS> I agree to ban these areas from the Community Chat
[02:46] <ubuntu_demon> +1 on sabdfl proposal
[02:46] <zenwhen> I never said Ubuntu related politcs threads shouldnt be allowed.
[02:47] <sabdfl> ok, that's 3/4 on the proposal, so please can we try that for 6 months?
[02:47] <mjg59> zenwhen: As has been pointed out, you shouldn't be concerned about politics and religion *in themselves*. You should be concerned about inappropriate conversations of *any* sort.
[02:47] <Kamion> well, this is the problem with "religion and politics", by the time you've made it specific enough to actually work you end up with something that's entirely different
[02:48] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: 6 months is a lot of time on the forums for a trial maybe 2 months or something ?
[02:48] <azajac> 2 months is good.
[02:48] <zenwhen> mjg59, Yes let us all wear blinders and not notice specific situations and try to deal with them.
[02:48] <sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: ok, fair enough
[02:48] <sabdfl> zenwhen: that's a little personal for this forum
[02:48] <zenwhen> Oh
[02:48] <zenwhen> Sorry.
[02:48] <zenwhen> Shoudl I have phrased that differently?
[02:48] <zenwhen> I think it was a valid point.
[02:50] <Kamion> zenwhen: if you (plural, general) make blanket categorisations, you've got to expect people to take them literally, because human nature says they will when it suits them
[02:50] <FLeiXiuS> Woops, My appologies.
[02:51] <zenwhen> Oh well.
[02:51] <Kamion> I understand that you're responding to things you see as problems; what I'm trying to suggest is that I think you're identifying the wrong pieces of problematic posts to moderate away
[02:51] <sabdfl> i have another commitment in 10 mins, so i don't think i'll be able to participate in all of the discussion on forums governance
[02:51] <sabdfl> let me just make some observations quickly
[02:51] <sabdfl> i think the forums guidelines are great, at least a very good first start
[02:52] <Kamion> I agree, with the exception of the bits in them about the backyard which we've already covered
[02:52] <sabdfl> on the dispute resolution teams, i think they would be more likely to be successful if it was in fact a larger group of people
[02:52] <sabdfl> any three of which could form a "DRT" to deal with a particular situation
[02:52] <sabdfl> or something like that
[02:52] <sabdfl> this community is growing hugely quickly
[02:52] <ubuntu_demon> DRT????
[02:52] <sabdfl> dispute resolution team
[02:53] <sabdfl> and such a huge community needs a scalable framework of governance
[02:53] <azajac> I am concerned about how these will be chosen, if they are not already chosen.
[02:53] <sabdfl> the CC is definitely NOT scalable
[02:53] <Kamion> (and of course the moderation guidelines talk about religion threads etc., and again I'd refer to what I've said)
[02:53] <sabdfl> Kamion: +1
[02:53] <ubuntu_demon> the "forum resolutuon team" should meet more often than once a month IMO
[02:54] <sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: i think you need a large pool of trusted, experienced forums users that you delegate this authority to
[02:54] <Kamion> trying to get everyone together once a month on IRC is tough
[02:54] <sabdfl> large being 8-12 initially
[02:54] <azajac> What about them "meeting" in the open on a forum thread?
[02:54] <sabdfl> and allow any three of them to deal with a situation, at a time that suits them and the people raising it
[02:54] <Kamion> it only works as well (or as badly ...) as it does in the CC because three of us are in the same home timezone
[02:54] <sabdfl> that way you have a lot of flexibility
[02:54] <sabdfl> azajac: +1, appointment of these folks should be transparent
[02:55] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : okay I agree
[02:55] <Kamion> azajac: IRC has a lot of benefits for high-bandwidth communication, but I think whatever works for the team in question
[02:55] <sabdfl> i would also expect there to be a smaller team of most senior people, with a leader, that reports  regularly to the CC
[02:55] <zenwhen> I would just like to make one more comment: If we are to allow topics which are sure to create a lot of work for our moderation team, soley based upon the discretion of the CC, where is the funding for all of this work coming from? UG pays the bills for the forums and now has to ask his mods to deal with flamewars.
[02:55] <azajac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndrewZajac/comments  I was told that the ombusdmen were already in place.
[02:55] <sabdfl> if you look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrantingMembership you'll see that i would like to have forums participants granted membership BY forums leaders
[02:56] <Kamion> zenwhen: Canonical already makes a fairly sizable contribution there, as I understand it
[02:56] <azajac> zenwhen:  Moderators are not paid.
[02:56] <zenwhen> I didnt ask to be.
[02:56] <zenwhen> :)
[02:56] <azajac> and a lot more users would volunteer, if asked...
[02:57] <zenwhen> My point was that $900 is a small price to pay to delagate what 40,000 users should be able to do on forums you dont help moderate.
[02:58] <Kamion> (GrantingMembership's up for discussion on Nov 8)
[02:58] <ubuntu_demon> nice idea (GrantingMembership)
[02:59] <elmo> zenwhen: canonical offered to contribute more, that hasn't been taken up...
[02:59] <elmo> however, personally speaking, I don't think moderation is something that should be linked to money in any way, it just introduces a whole new raft  of issues into an already complex situation
[03:00] <sabdfl> for GrantingMembership to be feasible, there has to be a trusted, transparent structure within the forums that can evaluate candidates and nominate them for membership
[03:00] <sabdfl> elmo: +1, we would likely only cover costs of bandwidth, not pay for moderation
[03:00] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: I can understand that :)
[03:01] <azajac> Ryan, are any moderators paid?
[03:01] <zenwhen> I would like to state once more that I would never ask for pay. My interest is in the community.
[03:01] <sabdfl> ok, i'm afraid i'm out of time. from me, it would be +1 to the current guidelines with kamion's mods taking into account the earlier decision
[03:02] <sabdfl> and -1 on the current DRT plan, because i don't think its transparent and scalable enough
[03:02] <Kamion> our network access here is about to disappear apparently
[03:02] <sabdfl> ...
[03:02] <ubuntugeek> azajac: no
[03:02] <azajac> Okay.  I didn't think so.
[03:02] <sabdfl> so, i suspect we will have another round of this. can we make it in about two weeks?
[03:02] <Kamion> (it's not convenient, but it's out of our hands)
[03:02] <sabdfl> or at the next CC?
[03:02] <ubuntu_demon> anyone: so how do we improve the DRT plan ?
[03:02] <sabdfl> thank you all for coming
[03:02] <ubuntugeek> DRT?
[03:02] <sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: i've made some suggestions above
[03:02] <azajac> Thanks!
[03:02] <ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: ok
[03:02] <ubuntu_demon> thnx everyone
[03:03] <jjesse> dang it 
[03:03] <azajac> ubuntugeek:  The ombudsmen, drt.
[03:03] <azajac> jjesse, poor you!
[03:03] <jjesse> everyone gone?
[03:04] <ubuntu_demon> guess so. so I'm going to sleep. see you at the next meeting
[03:04] <ubuntu_demon> bye all!
[03:04] <Kamion> I'm still here, but may have to switch network
[03:04] <jjesse> did my nomiation get passed up? sorry i was late i had car issues and couldn't get home any soonerf
[03:05] <jjesse> or did the forums issue take too long?
[03:05] <azajac> jjesse, not, it did not get passed, but sabdfl had to leave, it seems.
[03:05] <azajac> yes.
[03:05] <jjesse> grumble
[03:05] <sabdfl> jjesse: i'm sorry
[03:05] <jjesse> no worries i'll try for the next one
[03:05] <sabdfl> wiki page?
[03:05] <sabdfl> quickly
[03:05] <jjesse> wiki.ubuntu.com/JonathanJesse
[03:06] <jjesse> been working with docteam and Riddell on Kubuntu docs
[03:06] <jjesse> Riddell and Seveas can vouch for me
[03:06] <Kamion> +1 for Kubuntu doc work
[03:06] <sabdfl> Riddell: ?
[03:06] <sabdfl> Seveas: ?
[03:06] <jjesse> inclduing the creation of the spec for KubuntuDocs for DapperDrake
[03:07] <jjesse> wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
[03:07] <Kamion> ... having followed up links and stuff
[03:07] <sabdfl> i'll ask riddell in person tomorrow
[03:08] <sabdfl> if he's happy, i'll +1 it
[03:08] <jjesse> thank you sabdfl and Kamion
[03:08] <sabdfl> elmo says he will do the same
[03:08] <jjesse> i can try and get to the next meeting if that would help
[03:08] <Kamion> looks like we're fine
[03:08] <sabdfl> thanks for the contribution!
[03:08] <sabdfl> cheers
[03:08] <sabdfl> night all
[03:08] <jjesse> thank you very much
[03:08] <ubuntugeek> see ya thanks
[03:08] <Kamion> I still need to process membership additions in launchpad from the last meeting; it's on my queue
[03:08] <Kamion> I'll do jjesse at the same time if sabdfl/elmo are +1
[03:08] <Riddell> I voush for jjesse totally
[03:09] <jjesse> [21:10]  sabdfl: i'll ask riddell in person tomorrow
[03:09] <jjesse> [21:10]  sabdfl: if he's happy, i'll +1 it
[03:09] <Riddell> vouch
[03:09] <jjesse> thank you Riddell
[03:09] <Kamion> ok, I think we're forcibly done
[03:09] <Kamion> thanks for coming everyone
[03:09] <jjesse> have fun in montreal
[03:10] <Kamion> sorry for the enforced shortness - I don't think we realised significantly in advance that network access would become awkward
[03:24] <mako> greetings
[03:27] <Riddell> mako: meeting finished
[03:27] <Riddell> mako: and internet here died
[03:27] <mako> well, i got here as quickly as i could
[03:28] <mako> Riddell: do you have logs?
[03:28] <mako> i'd like to know how things went
[03:29] <Riddell> mako: if you tell me how to get irssi to save a buffer to a log I do
[03:29] <jdong> ooh, mako, long time no see :)
[03:30] <mako> jdong: i'm around :)
[03:32] <mako> how long was the meeting?
[03:32] <Riddell> mako: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-meeting-log.text
[03:33] <jdong> Riddell: I may be a mere mortal, but 403 :)
[03:33] <bob2> http://www.kubuntu.org/images/konqi-border.png appears to be 404
[03:34] <mako> ah good
[03:34] <mako> Riddell: i was still looking up how to do that
[03:34] <mako> thanks
[03:36] <mako> jdong: i see 403 too
[03:48] <geekchic9> So, what was the verdict of the Backyard?
[03:48] <geekchic9> Keep it or ditch it?
[03:49] <geekchic9> Ok, no one's talking...
[03:51] <Brunellus> probably because it's pretty late, UTC
[03:51] <geekchic9> Really?
[03:51] <geekchic9> Oh.
[03:51] <Brunellus> the meeting was called for 0100 UTC
[03:51] <geekchic9> What time is it, UTC?
[03:52] <Brunellus> 0251?
[03:52] <geekchic9> Ah.
[03:52] <geekchic9> It's 20:52 here in Texas.
[03:53] <Brunellus> yup.  it's 21:52 here in Virginia so
[03:53] <geekchic9> So, did you see the meeting? What was the results?
[03:54] <mjg59> geekchic9: Keep it for now
[03:54] <geekchic9> Ok.
[03:55] <mjg59> And move on with the development of a policy for dealing with unacceptable posts
[03:55] <mjg59> So, the basic conclusion was to have another meeting to discuss a redrafted dispute resolution team document
[03:56] <mjg59> Brunellus: This is traditionally one of the problems with forums
[03:56] <mjg59> You have much less flexibility than with, say, usenet
[03:56] <Brunellus> ...why I prefer usenet
[03:57] <Brunellus> why not have alt.comp.os.linux.ubuntu
[03:57] <Brunellus> or something?
[03:57] <geekchic9> That would be cool.
[03:57] <Brunellus> because I for one love usenet
[03:57] <Brunellus> it's cheap, in terms of time--no moderation needed, post an FAQ and a Killfile FAQ
[03:57] <Brunellus> and it's much more command-line friendly, for the guys who like that kind of thing
[03:57] <geekchic9> It's still important to have quality members in the group. Those are hard to find.
[03:58] <Brunellus> well yeah
[03:58] <geekchic9> I belonged to a slackware usenet group and they were great folk.
[03:58] <geekchic9> hi fadumpt
[03:58] <Brunellus> really?  
[03:58] <fadumpt> hi
[03:59] <mjg59> Heh
[03:59] <Brunellus> linux communities in general are not as good as ubuntu's has been
[03:59] <mjg59> Forums are a lot more accessible for most users
[03:59] <Brunellus> other communities may have more talented hackers
[03:59] <Brunellus> but ubuntu has...erm...human beings.
[03:59] <geekchic9> hehe
[03:59] <Brunellus> *sigh*
[03:59] <fadumpt> the linuxcult and it's IRC room have been a great resource for linux
[03:59] <mjg59> The greater entry bar to usenet means you have quite a different set of people
[03:59] <fadumpt> for a few years now
[03:59] <Brunellus> see, usenet has never been a great barrier to me
[04:00] <fadumpt> I've never really used usenet :-/
[04:00] <Brunellus> but I guess that's because I like that sort of thing, and I'd been lurking on usenet since like...um... '92 or '93
[04:00] <Brunellus> and really got into it in like '96, '97
[04:00] <fadumpt> I do know that #ubuntu on freenode isn't so hot for help
[04:00] <Brunellus> #ubuntu is turning pretty churlish
[04:01] <Brunellus> it was good around the time of warty
[04:01] <Brunellus> but I'm detecting a definite 'tude there
[04:01] <fadumpt> last time i was in there with a question, I ended up helping 2 or 3 people and never even got an "i don't know"
[04:01] <Brunellus> also they hate it when you refer people to ubuntuguide, or what have you
[04:01] <Brunellus> it's like going to a Communist cell meeting
[04:01] <Brunellus> ugh.
[04:01] <fadumpt> that's one think i liked about #ubuntu, they'll have that BOT point you to a good HOWTO
[04:02] <Brunellus> yeah.  but they've tended to be very "our way or the highway" when i've been in there...
[04:02] <Brunellus> I dont' know
[04:02] <Brunellus> the regulars there rub me the wrong way
[04:02] <Brunellus> #ubuntuforums people, on the other hand, rule.
[04:02] <fadumpt> I'll check them out
[04:02] <jdong> imo, #ubuntu is too hectic and busy compared to a forums setting....
[04:02] <fadumpt> that was the problem with #gentoo
[04:03] <jdong> no offense to any #ubuntu regulars here -- I respect your work
[04:03] <fadumpt> too busy and chaotic
[04:03] <jdong> maybe some people excel in such areas, but I like to concentrate on a problem at a time, and I don't like cross-noise in the process
[04:04] <Brunellus> it's a preference, totally
[04:04] <fadumpt> well I can keep up with my problem mixed in with others
[04:04] <fadumpt> but when they ignore you entirely and help others a lot
[04:04] <fadumpt> it tends to be annoying
[04:04] <Brunellus> #ubuntuforums is just a nice community hangout with heavy support elements mixed in
[04:05] <jdong> fadumpt: agreed... and we (at least try) to make sure that never happens on the forums
[04:05] <fadumpt> Forums are different though
[04:05] <jdong> fadumpt: not to mention it's a lot easier to see on a forum when people are being ignored
[04:05] <fadumpt> I can ask a question on a forum and over the few days it will get answwered
[04:06] <fadumpt> yeah that's a good point, you can look for threads with 1 post and check those out to see if you can help them
[04:06] <fadumpt> where if you miss a question in a chatroom then you come off as ignoring that person
[04:06] <fadumpt> but i asked my question 3 times and helped others, so I felt ignored :)
[04:07] <Brunellus> it's weird.  I didn't follow the meeting too closely
[04:07] <Brunellus> but has anyone noticed a real disconnect between the forums folks and the wiki guys?
[04:08] <jdong> Brunellus: there are ongoing conflicts between the doc team and the forums folks
[04:08] <jdong> Brunellus: slander, miscommunication, banishment, you name it
[04:08] <Brunellus> the doc guys don't come off so well
[04:08] <Brunellus> a very "this is our club" air
[04:08] <jdong> but that's a hairy thing I'm not in the mood to really discuss -:/
[04:08] <jdong> I might say something I'll regret in the future
[04:09] <jdong> Brunellus: but it does seem that way 
[04:09] <_native_> jdong, we cant have that. doesnt help the community much.
[04:09] <Brunellus> I don't have much contact with them, so 
[04:09] <Brunellus> it's a big internet;  if I don't need to hear from them, I don't have to.
[04:10] <jdong> Brunellus: likewise; other than burgundavia at the forums, I've come in little contact
[04:10] <jdong> Brunellus: minus our mods coming back from the wiki complaining about doc team defacing their wikipages
[04:11] <Brunellus> yeah.  maybe I'm retarded or something, but I hate using the wiki
[04:11] <Brunellus> I'd contribute more if it were easier....
[04:11] <jdong> nothing against wikis in general, but they do imply welcoming a community... not driving away offers of help
[04:11] <Brunellus> but the whole wiki/launchpad/bugzilla thing just seems badly put-together
[04:11] <jdong> I like the lp system, but just not the "wiki replaces forums" attitude
[04:11] <Brunellus> as in, "forgotten password" links point to the wrong thing
[04:12] <Brunellus> etc.
[04:13] <mjg59> Brunellus: Uhm. Wiki guys?
[04:13] <Brunellus> ok, bad nomenclature
[04:13] <mjg59> The wiki wasn't mentioned in the meeting
[04:13] <jdong> mjg59: OT discussion
[04:13] <Brunellus> but there's a definite wiki/forum cleavage going on.
[04:14] <fadumpt> what's cool about this room (so far) is no one is coming off as rude
[04:14] <fadumpt> you see that in a lot of rooms
[04:14] <mjg59> Brunellus: There was a distinct difference of opinion between some of the forum people and the community council in the meeting
[04:15] <Brunellus> fadumpt:  it's all in the spirit of the distro
[04:15] <fadumpt> nope
[04:15] <fadumpt> #ubuntu they came off as rude
[04:15] <fadumpt> it's the spirit of the room
[04:15] <Brunellus> you have a point...
[04:16] <jdong> fadumpt: the rudeness at one point made it into the forums too...
[04:16] <jdong> we worked hard to correct that...
[04:17] <Brunellus> there are some borderline threads/posts/users
[04:17] <Brunellus> but on the whole
[04:17] <Brunellus> it's a positive place
[04:17] <Brunellus> still makes me wish for an alt.comp.os.linux.ubuntu
[04:17] <poofyhair> the wiki is great for many things
[04:18] <mjg59> The wiki is supposed to be an information repository - somewhere to go in order to search for an answer
[04:18] <fadumpt> i used the ubuntu wiki a lot back when i was setting up my Debian server recently
[04:18] <mjg59> The forums are somewhere to get an answer if it's not already documented
[04:18] <poofyhair> and to chat, and to connect to other users, and to hammer out ideas
[04:19] <poofyhair> the wiki does a lot more tahn just guides as well
[04:19] <mjg59> Right. But that's as close as the two get.
[04:19] <poofyhair> both are great tools
[04:19] <mjg59> They have distinct roles that complement each other
[04:19] <poofyhair> agreed
[04:19] <poofyhair> those two and mailing lists make a nice trio
[04:20] <mjg59> So any wiki replaces forums attitude is plainly wrong
[04:20] <fadumpt> basically that's like saying you don't need KDE becuase Gnome is better so let's get rid of it in all distros
[04:20] <fadumpt> and remove choice over personal preference
[04:20] <poofyhair> but you are right about the guide thing
[04:20] <mjg59> Well, it's not even that
[04:21] <poofyhair> it it an intersection
[04:21] <mjg59> It's We have bash, so we don't need gcc
[04:21] <poofyhair> thats why I asked for a note on the forum to ask people to add to the wiki
[04:21] <poofyhair> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=104
[04:21] <mjg59> The wiki and the forums do different things. There's no element of choice about it.
[04:22] <mjg59> The situation with ubuntuguide is a little more awkward, since historically it's contained incorrect information
[04:24] <mjg59> (And, on checking, still does)
[04:25] <poofyhair> well......
[04:25] <poofyhair> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=77704
[04:26] <Brunellus> ok chaps.  I'm off.  keep on being great. 
[04:26] <mjg59> poofyhair: I'd certainly love to, but sadly writing my thesis has higher priority right now...
[04:27] <_native_> mjg59, whats your thesis subject?
[04:28] <_native_> *or the subject of you thesis. :-P
[04:29] <mjg59> RNA localisation in fruitflies
[04:30] <jdong> mjg59: if you can capture them all (PLEASE DO) I got donations towards your thesis :)
[04:30] <jdong> j/k
[04:30] <_native_> very cool
[04:31] <mjg59> There's as many species of Fruitflies in Hawaii as there are in the rest of the world put together, oddly
[04:31] <mjg59> So things could be worse
[04:54] <Riddell> mako: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-meeting-log.text works now
[05:04] <nybble> I has a question... Our LUG is going to hold a 'con' in early 2006. I want to do a presentation on Ubuntu. Whom do I talk to about that. I need to know what the 'group' would like said about Ubuntu
[05:17] <Riddell> nybble: ask jdub or silbs about conference support, not on this channel though
[05:18] <nybble> ok thanks.
[05:19] <Riddell> nybble: or ask me about kubuntu support come to think of it
[05:20] <nybble> Riddell: not in this channel though....
[05:21] <Riddell> exactly :)
[05:22] <nybble> Riddell: lol..  PM or whats a better channel... (please dont say #ubuntu)
[05:22] <nybble> Riddell: see you in #kubuntu
[09:51] <cyphase> Broadcast: Does anyone have Gobby installed?
[09:57] <manicka> I have gobby
[10:03] <cyphase> can you connect to me?
[11:23] <rob^> does anyone know when/time the next CC meeting is?
[11:59] <Seveas> rob^, tuesday 14:00 UTC I guess
[11:59] <Seveas> which is midnight in australia iirc
[11:59] <rob^> great :)
[12:00] <Seveas> (but check that, i've messed up a lot already with DST ending)
[12:00] <rob^> yep thats correct
[12:01] <rob^> sweet
[12:01] <Seveas> you're at east aussieland?
[12:01] <rob^> yes
[12:01] <Seveas> worldclock now tells me that 14:00 UTC is 01:00 sydney
[12:01] <rob^> yes, they are on daylight savings time atm
[12:02] <rob^> us in queensland are not
[12:02] <Seveas> ah right
[12:02] <Seveas> stupid aussie-ers, can't even agree on whether to use DST or not :p
[12:02] <rob^> hehe
[12:02] <rob^> yeah
[08:24] <cyphase> Does anyone have Gobby installed?