[12:05] good evening === robitaille is around...but half listening (middle of my work day) [12:05] ok [12:05] hello docteam peoples [12:05] hands up who is here [12:05] hi there jeffsch [12:06] <-- matthew east [12:06] <-- Daniel Robitaille === Burgundavia is Corey Burger [12:07] madpilot is likely at work or just getting home now [12:07] cool, we should wait a few minutes i think [12:08] ok [12:08] might thought was that we discuss https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/docteam-projects first [12:09] s/might/I thought [12:09] erm [12:09] there is no spec on the linked wiki page [12:09] is that a spec, or just an excuse to make another LP page? [12:09] not really [12:10] there is no spec because it should take a very short time, ie, one meeting [12:10] ok well stick it on the agenda [12:10] perhaps explain what it is that it is getting at [12:11] the idea was that we should decide as early in the cycle as possible so that we could base decisions on that [12:11] decide what we want to do, that is [12:11] but isn't that what we already do? [12:11] we agreed 6 months ago to do that [12:11] yes, I just codified it === judax [n=judax@adsl-68-91-193-252.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:11] bhuvan -> Bhuvaneswaran [12:12] salut bhuvan [12:12] salute! [12:13] <- Troy Williams [12:16] is there a meeting, why so quiet? [12:16] are we expecting Jerome or Rob? [12:16] yes, both [12:16] judax, we are waiting for Jerome and Rob [12:16] ok, sounds good [12:17] I will clean up the DocteamProjects page after the meeting, based on what we decide [12:18] Burgundavia: when you do that, can you change the style guide to wip? === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:18] it should go to version 1.5 for now, then 2.0 at time of dapper release [12:18] ok we should probably start i guess [12:19] jeffsch, yep [12:19] sounds good [12:19] thanks [12:19] agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda [12:19] 1. Repository layout [12:19] first item is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamRepositoryLayout [12:19] the layout is pretty similar to what is already there [12:20] with a few differences, i.e. the absence of teamstuff, debian folders etc [12:20] any thoughts? [12:20] +1 on layout [12:21] fine by me too [12:21] think the wrench was the stuff from Sean on Kubuntu, right? [12:21] think we can move on quickly from that [12:21] guess so [12:21] me too [12:21] does anyone think we should change "kde" to "kubuntu" and "gnome" to "ubuntu" as per the structure on that wiki page? [12:22] no big deal, but if we are gonna do it, we should do it soon === phig [n=pedro@20150078090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:22] imo, we should. it makes things more clear [12:22] matters not to me [12:22] fine with me too [12:23] we will have to revise the build scripts and whatnot, but i suppose we have to do that anyway [12:23] yeah [12:23] that will need redoing anyway [12:23] the debian folder needs to go in "gnome" i guess [12:23] kde/debian is already there [12:23] mdke: yes but ubuntu covers stuff that kubuntu uses too like serverGuide [12:23] I like the new layout, don't see any reasons not to adopt it [12:24] ok, move on to item 2? [12:24] 2nd item is ServerGuide spec [12:24] do we want to identify authors of specific things before we move onto specific docs? [12:24] Riddell, if we have documents which apply to both we'll put them in a generic folder at the top of the tree [12:24] right? [12:25] Riddell, i'm right to say there should be a gnome/debian and a kde/debian, rather than a debian/ and a kde/debian, yeah? [12:25] are we planning any generic docs? [12:25] the server guide would be generic i think [12:25] yes [12:26] and there may be more, such as docs ported from the wiki [12:26] what about a top level server directory [12:26] i think generic/ is the best way to go [12:26] mdke: no, w il sare debian packaging === mdke blinks [12:26] no, we will share debian packaging [12:26] I talked about this with dholbach [12:26] Riddell, so kde/debian needs to move? [12:26] yes [12:27] Riddell, could you run us through that? [12:27] it's the first we've heard [12:27] damn, I have to go, sorry will read the logs [12:27] we should be ubuntu/ kubuntu/ common/ and debian/ [12:28] Riddell, sure, i mean can you run us through the reasons? === corey_ [n=corey@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jane_ [n=JaneW@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === einheit_ [n=steve@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra_ [n=ogra@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mez_ [n=Mez@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:28] because i think that is likely to prevent ubuntu-docs from moving to gnome-doc-utils build process === doko_ [n=doko@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:29] bloody hell [12:29] the usual conference fun [12:29] mdke, why? [12:29] I don't know about gnome-doc-utils [12:29] network here is terrible [12:29] Riddell, I mentioned it to you === mdz [n=mdz@66.103.220.155] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:29] Riddell, we have been talking about moving to it with jbailey [12:30] mdke: mdz and I think that your comment about a documentation string freeze on DapperReleaseProcess is pretty much at the discretion of the doc team [12:30] mdke, jbailey will no longer be involved with packaging [12:30] it seems perfectly reasonable to me [12:30] corey_, so? [12:30] Kamion, cool thanks [12:30] mdke, dholbach and riddell will be doing it [12:30] mdke: except that pushing it back a week makes it collide with the distro's string freeze [12:30] corey_, i know, but what does that mean? [12:31] Kamion, we'll have to give it some more thought [12:31] mdke, jbailey is moving into support completely, away from half distro, half support [12:31] mdke: ok, I don't think it needs to be decided immediately [12:31] anyway, apologies for interrupting your meeting [12:31] corey_, you've said that on the mailing list, but what has that to do with gnome-doc-utils? [12:31] mdke, not much [12:31] Kamion, np thanks for the indication [12:31] but we are straying far from the agenda [12:32] i disagree [12:32] the position of debian in the tree is part of the repository structure [12:32] anyhow, we can come back to it maybe? [12:32] we can talk about packaging at the next meeting, when it matters more [12:32] or in between [12:33] ok, we'll just leave the debian stuff where it is for now then [12:34] item 2? [12:34] moving the debian stuff will not majorily affect the writing of docs [12:34] no one is talking [12:34] :/ [12:34] yes [12:34] shall we pass over the specific doc specs until we decide who is writing what? [12:34] i hope people will feel free to write anything === kjcole [n=kjcole@66.103.220.236] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:35] yes, but having one person that says they are working on one thing makes certain it is going to get written [12:35] sorry here [12:35] salut rob^ [12:35] not that certain :p [12:35] hi corey_ [12:35] yes, but more chance [12:35] anyhow, we should continue the current system of people being responsible for docs [12:35] Well, that took bloody forever! (Wireless being uncooperative.) [12:36] kjcole, you want to introduce yourself? [12:36] brb [12:36] Nah. ;-) Kevin Cole from Gallaudet University, Brain-Washington, DC. [12:36] an LTSP guy [12:36] hello [12:36] Hi all. [12:37] too bad jerome is not here [12:37] item 2: has everyone looked at the spec server guide? [12:37] mdke, did here what I said? === davidj_ubz [n=david@66.103.220.158] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:37] davidj_ubz, welcome [12:37] corey_, tbh if you eliminate specific docs, there is not gonna be much left on the agenda [12:37] davidj_ubz, you want to introduce yourself? [12:37] mkde: Nope. I'm relatively new here, and will probably watch, as I have much catching up to do [12:37] corey_: thank you. I'm sorry I couldn't join you sooner. [12:38] I am the ltsp translations lead. [12:38] hi davidj [12:38] mdke: Hello. [12:38] mdke, not really. We can talk about what specifically each of us want to do, which helps the LTSP people and others a good idea of who to talk to [12:38] and people can begin drafting specs for docs === mdke is totally confused as to what is going on [12:40] mdke, I propose we swap the desktop/server guides to after the decision of the who is doing what [12:40] just go ahead [12:40] ok [12:40] if you put something on the agenda page or say something here, it'll help me understand [12:41] ok [12:41] my thought was that people would say what they wanted to do for dapper [12:41] I want to work primarily on the wiki and the launchpad landing pages [12:42] after they said that, I would edit the docteamprojects page accordingly [12:42] a half a slab of beer and greezy bacon and eggs at the hotel bar plays havac on your insides [12:42] heh [12:42] is the DocteamProjects page out of date? [12:43] i updated it only last week [12:43] and the kde stuff is quite up to date too i think [12:43] but, couple preview/status pages were broken [12:43] what are we up to? [12:43] s/couple/couple of/ [12:43] rob^, we're off-agenda for the moment [12:43] ah [12:43] bhuvan, yes, it is so early in the cycle that previews won't work properly right now [12:44] rob^, we are discussing what each person is doing for the dapper release cycle [12:44] i meant, it was leading to wrong url [12:44] ok [12:44] couple of links had been corrected [12:44] bhuvan, no big deal, but we can remove links if they are broken [12:45] well I'm happy to keep working on the desktop guide and help contribute to the server guide [12:45] brb, switching computers [12:45] excellent [12:45] bhuvan, what would you to work on for the dapper release? [12:45] rob^, will you be working on kubuntu docs? [12:46] i must contribute to server guide spec [12:46] bhuvan, do you want to be the primary author of the server guide? [12:46] erm [12:46] he hasn't got commit access yet [12:46] that is fine [12:46] mdke, most likely not, I offered some help to the kubuntu desktop guide/faqguide but jjesse said he had it under control [12:46] commit access is not a major barrior [12:47] s/barrior/barrier [12:47] perhaps some patches first corey_ ? [12:47] mdke, sure [12:47] +1 to that [12:47] i can submit patches to server guide [12:47] what I am trying to have by the end of this meeting is a clear idea of who is working on what [12:47] the requirement is to enable us to see that the new contributor is serious, which I am sure is not a problem in bhuvan's case, but i think it should remain [12:47] so if other people come to ask, we can point them to the correct person [12:48] perhaps asking newcomers to take responsibility for a whole doc is unrealistic [12:48] and we can thus create specs before the next meeting to be talked about [12:48] mdke, agreed [12:48] anyhow, i hope to contribute to the desktopguide, and continue working on translations and taking care of the server. Also I am gonna push the better-wiki-docs spec [12:48] I think they should start by just submitting small patches that fix typos, bugs etc [12:49] mdke, are you still going to take the lead on the server guide? [12:49] no, i never intended to really [12:49] you are heaps more technically proficient, and bhuvan too [12:49] As I mentioned to Corey and Jane, I'm leaning towards involvement with Edubuntu docs, particularly stuff based on the Tuxlab Cookbook... I think. [12:49] oh, I kind of assumed you were.. [12:50] np [12:50] kjcole, that is awesome [12:50] yes, edubuntu can use some love [12:50] jeffsch, are you going to be working on the style guide again? [12:51] yep [12:51] are we going to drop the learn linux stuff from our repos? [12:51] if (and I mean IF) I get time I'll do something for xubuntu too, but it is very low priority [12:51] Burgundavia, we [12:51] grr [12:52] Burgundavia, let's keep to the agenda as much as we can [12:52] I am [12:52] that is last [12:52] we are discussing specific people and specifc docs for dapper [12:52] ok [12:53] -1 on learn linux [12:53] it is being actively developed elsewhere [12:53] so why do we need it? [12:53] we don't === mdy [n=mdy@209.104.102.193] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:53] so why do we need to keep it? [12:53] we don't [12:53] ok [12:53] everyone ok with scrapping that? [12:54] ys [12:54] np here [12:54] ok, on we go [12:54] lazerjock expressed intrest in working on the motu/packaging doc [12:54] I spoke with motus about moving to our repos [12:54] he works with motu already iirc [12:55] they liked the idea [12:55] LaserJock! [12:55] I think it would be excellent [12:55] I am a MOTUWannabe kinda but I have more interest in new user documentation [12:55] welcome [12:55] LaserJock, are you only interested in working on a packaging guide, or also other docs? [12:56] LaserJock, we may be in the same boat... [12:56] well, I don't know. I don't have much time (I just started a MOTUScience team) [12:56] fair enough [12:56] ok. with regard to server guide, as i'm new, if someone takes the lead, i'm sure to back them consistently and stand responsible for dapper release [12:57] I really don't know how much time is required, etc. [12:57] I don't want to bite off more than I can chew ;-) [12:57] bhuvan, that's great news, rob^ has also said he will work on it [12:57] ok, added the packaging guide to DocteamProjects [12:57] bhuvan, well I can do that for now as I know the guide [12:57] LaserJock, no obligations :) whenever you wanna submit a patch, we'll check it out and apply it [12:57] LaserJock, you want to speak with Unfrgiven to get us the doc so we can put it into our repos? [12:57] mdke: thanks [12:57] Burgundavia: will do [12:57] thank you [12:58] thanks === fabbione [i=fabbione@66.103.220.245] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [12:58] bhuvan, when your ready we can organise a commit account and you can take over [12:58] ok [12:58] shall we talk about the server guide a little? [12:58] sure [12:58] does anyone have any comments on the spec? [12:58] I just did a brain dump on there a few days ago [12:59] I think some of the AD stuff could go though [12:59] I'd like to see the section titles a little more user friendly [12:59] ok [12:59] although obviously a server guide will be targeted at experienced users... [12:59] imo, we can be more specific [12:59] i think that some bits will be very relevant to new users [12:59] and we should make em accessible [12:59] so would I, but I just wanted to get the relevent parts we need to cover on the page [01:00] sure, the material rocks [01:00] bhuvan, go on [01:00] so its pretty raw [01:00] we can add few more sections under under services section (for example, under http we can add howto configure module) [01:01] if need be, we may also add details about webmin [01:01] again under ftp, we can add pros/cons various ftp servers [01:01] good idea [01:01] bhuvan, I thought about webmin myself, it should be there as well [01:01] although there is a module section under http [01:01] ok [01:01] bhuvan, feel free to work on it and expand it before the writing starts [01:01] bhuvan, feel free to go nuts on that wiki page [01:02] ok [01:02] heh [01:02] sure [01:02] i'd like to see it as user-accessible as possible, personally [01:02] ok [01:02] else, people will complain that we cut stuff out of the faqguide and made it hard to get at [01:02] can everybody check DocteamProjects, as I have updated it quite a lot [01:02] ok [01:03] mdke, sure but as everything will be done on the command line you still need to get everything across, just explain it properly [01:03] anyhow, server guide is meant for admin/experieced users, imo [01:03] what is Docs on the wiki? [01:04] rob^, it's the section titles I'm really concerned about, because that will be the key to allowing people to access the simpler sections [01:04] and Launchpad Landing pages? [01:04] Burgundavia, yeah the docs on the wiki section is redundant, we have wiki pages === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:04] morn [01:04] sorry *blushes* [01:04] hi jsgotangco [01:04] i slept at 3am [01:04] :) [01:04] hi jsgotangco [01:04] mdke, we need a person that people can talk to about the wiki [01:04] I am volunteering for that person [01:04] Burgundavia, there is a wikiteam section on that page === uniq [n=frode@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:05] Burgundavia, we also have a mailing list, and irc [01:05] can DocteamProjects please reference KubuntuDocs [01:05] maybe just make the pointer to the wiki team more obvious [01:05] i don't see a need for a specific person [01:05] mdke, I don't completely understand [01:05] mdke, I do [01:05] Riddell: sure I'll update it now [01:05] Riddell, it does [01:05] rob^, I will clean that up [01:05] Riddell, all the kubuntu docs are there [01:05] Burgundavia, go ahead [01:05] great :) [01:06] why is there a need for a single point of contact for the wiki? [01:06] mdke, currently the wiki pages are second class citizens. I want to remove that [01:06] sure, we all do [01:06] there are loads of ways to try and do that, but how will a SPOC help? [01:06] that is why we have someone who says "I am working on the wiki as my primary doc' [01:07] maybe a more obvious pointer on the main wiki page to the wikiteam is needed too [01:07] we have a whole team that says that corey [01:07] yes === jsgotangco just suggest use the wiki lp team [01:07] yes, but most of them do only very small amounts [01:07] Burgundavia, my question is, how does a SPOC help? I'm not saying that you shouldn't do loads of work on the wiki === Burgundavia is baffled about the objections === jsgotangco then make the most out of the current lp team [01:07] or, we can maintain a list of things to do on wiki. whoever has time or inclined can take it and close it ? [01:08] bhuvan, absolutely [01:08] bhuvan, we already have a list of things to do [01:08] i meant, it must be active [01:08] bhuvan, it is, CategoryCleanup [01:08] can LP be used to manage the work? [01:09] Burgundavia, i just wanna understand why you think having one person who appears to be, for the purposes of the outside work, "in charge" of wiki work, will help [01:09] Burgundavia, no objections to having a pointer to wikiteam and yourself, but it doesn't belong in the table as a "book" [01:09] outside work/outside world* [01:09] rob^, but is a docteam project [01:09] imo, its one of them. for example, if we come accross a wiki page with broken links as such, we can make an entry in the todo page and address it when we get time [01:09] Burgundavia, that table is for books === jsgotangco thinks it would only be applicable if the wiki had ACLs [01:09] ok, I removed the header at the top that mentioned books [01:10] now the page is all about the general projects we do, regardless of where they are developed [01:10] eh [01:10] but why is one person in charge of the wiki? that's not what the wiki is about [01:10] mdke, no, not one person in charge, one person who is going to devote most of their time to the wiki === rob^ mumbles something about the docteam not having control of acls on thw wiki.. [01:11] you are free to devote that time, and I encourage it, but why SPOC? the wiki is an alive nest of contribution from all [01:11] because a SPOC creates order [01:12] the wiki needs order, very badly [01:12] a team doesn't? [01:12] yes === jsgotangco thinks its just a matter of communication [01:12] I am basically already that person, I am just talking the role [01:12] for all pratical matters, it will matter very little [01:12] sure [01:12] hmm [01:12] i'm slightly concerned by this [01:12] but let's move on === jsgotangco still doesn't get the idea of wiki master unless there are ACL rights involved [01:13] if it becomes a problem, lets raise the specific issue [01:13] if we had control of the acl and moin settings for the wiki then sure we would need a person who can devote time, otherwise its meaningless [01:13] even then [01:13] well, lets get that [01:13] henrik is the admin of the wiki [01:13] and he is on that wiki LP team... [01:13] and having a volunteer as "wiki king" is a bit odd [01:13] yes he is [01:14] but the current wiki doesn't work, I am going to devote myself to understanding why it doesn't and where we can go to make it work [01:14] the wiki is a community thing.. [01:14] i would prefer a group to be the contact for the wiki [01:14] rob^, +1 [01:14] bloody hell, I am not going to stop people writing on the wiki [01:14] mdke, +1 [01:14] personally I think on that DocteamProjects table we should simply put WikiTeam as the contact "person". [01:14] Burgundavia, we are not going to stop you either [01:14] nor am I am going to tell people to shove off [01:14] Burgundavia, we never said that === jsgotangco still thinks the lp team is more than enough, just make it active [01:14] ok well there is a reasonable consensus about this [01:15] is there a way to send to send an email to all themember of a LP team? [01:15] jsgotangco, communites usually form around one key person [01:15] robitaille, we have a mailing list [01:15] sure in the end, that person becomes overwhelmed [01:15] Burgundavia, dictatorships do anyhow [01:16] well anyways, im not that much of a wiki person, i guess i'm not the right person to say it [01:16] mdke, true. [01:16] currently I have no different rights than anyone else and I don't expect tath will change very soon [01:16] we should move on, either way there is nothing we can do about it as we don't control the wiki [01:16] ok let's move on [01:16] Burgundavia, i think you've seen that the team prefers the wikiteam to be the contact [01:16] Burgundavia, if that changes, then sure I'm happy for you to lead it === Burgundavia is completely baffled [01:16] we are yelling at ghosts [01:17] Burgundavia: go ahead with the plan if you think it's the right path, we don't have ACLs at the moment, i don't think it'll change much :) [01:17] no, I don't think it will either [01:17] let's see how this pans out :) [01:17] but we need someone who says "I work on the wiki" [01:17] yes [01:17] Burgundavia, we have a group who says that [01:17] otherwise it will continue towards entropy [01:17] ah well, this is stale [01:17] mdke, they are not stopping the entropy [01:17] at least i'll have someone to yell at when something gets borked :) [01:17] let's move on === rob^ points at the agenda [01:18] jsgotangco, that is primary reason why I stepped up [01:18] ok good enough for me then :) [01:18] i've always hated the idea of team leaders in Ubuntu [01:18] they don't work [01:18] mdke: well the distro works :) [01:18]