[12:05] <mdke> good evening
[12:05] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:05] <jeffsch> hello docteam peoples
[12:05] <mdke> hands up who is here
[12:05] <mdke> hi there jeffsch 
[12:06] <mdke> <-- matthew east
[12:06] <robitaille> <-- Daniel Robitaille
[12:07] <Burgundavia> madpilot is likely at work or just getting home now
[12:07] <mdke> cool, we should wait a few minutes i think
[12:08] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:08] <Burgundavia> might thought was that we discuss https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/docteam-projects first
[12:09] <Burgundavia> s/might/I thought
[12:09] <mdke> erm
[12:09] <mdke> there is no spec on the linked wiki page
[12:09] <mdke> is that a spec, or just an excuse to make another LP page?
[12:09] <Burgundavia> not really
[12:10] <Burgundavia> there is no spec because it should take a very short time, ie, one meeting
[12:10] <mdke> ok well stick it on the agenda
[12:10] <mdke> perhaps explain what it is that it is getting at
[12:11] <Burgundavia> the idea was that we should decide as early in the cycle as possible so that we could base decisions on that
[12:11] <Burgundavia> decide what we want to do, that is
[12:11] <mdke> but isn't that what we already do?
[12:11] <mdke> we agreed 6 months ago to do that
[12:11] <Burgundavia> yes, I just codified it
[12:11] <bhuvan> bhuvan -> Bhuvaneswaran
[12:12] <Burgundavia> salut bhuvan 
[12:12] <bhuvan> salute!
[12:13] <judax> <- Troy Williams
[12:16] <judax> is there a meeting, why so quiet?
[12:16] <Burgundavia> are we expecting Jerome or Rob?
[12:16] <mdke> yes, both
[12:16] <Burgundavia> judax, we are waiting for Jerome and Rob
[12:16] <judax> ok, sounds good
[12:17] <Burgundavia> I will clean up the DocteamProjects page after the meeting, based on what we decide
[12:18] <jeffsch> Burgundavia: when you do that, can you change the style guide to wip?
[12:18] <jeffsch> it should go to version 1.5 for now, then 2.0 at time of dapper release
[12:18] <mdke> ok we should probably start i guess
[12:19] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, yep
[12:19] <Burgundavia> sounds good
[12:19] <jeffsch> thanks
[12:19] <mdke> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
[12:19] <mdke> 1. Repository layout
[12:19] <Burgundavia> first item is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamRepositoryLayout
[12:19] <mdke> the layout is pretty similar to what is already there
[12:20] <mdke> with a few differences, i.e. the absence of teamstuff, debian folders etc
[12:20] <mdke> any thoughts?
[12:20] <judax> +1 on layout
[12:21] <mdke> fine by me too
[12:21] <judax> think the wrench was the stuff from Sean on Kubuntu, right?
[12:21] <judax> think we can move on quickly from that
[12:21] <mdke> guess so
[12:21] <mdke> me too
[12:21] <mdke> does anyone think we should change "kde" to "kubuntu" and "gnome" to "ubuntu" as per the structure on that wiki page?
[12:22] <mdke> no big deal, but if we are gonna do it, we should do it soon
[12:22] <bhuvan> imo, we should. it makes things more clear
[12:22] <judax> matters not to me
[12:22] <mdke> fine with me too
[12:23] <jeffsch> we will have to revise the build scripts and whatnot, but i suppose we have to do that anyway
[12:23] <mdke> yeah
[12:23] <mdke> that will need redoing anyway
[12:23] <mdke> the debian folder needs to go in "gnome" i guess
[12:23] <mdke> kde/debian is already there
[12:23] <Riddell> mdke: yes but ubuntu covers stuff that kubuntu uses too like serverGuide
[12:23] <Burgundavia> I like the new layout, don't see any reasons not to adopt it
[12:24] <Burgundavia> ok, move on to item 2?
[12:24] <Burgundavia> 2nd item is ServerGuide spec
[12:24] <Burgundavia> do we want to identify authors of specific things before we move onto specific docs?
[12:24] <mdke> Riddell, if we have documents which apply to both we'll put them in a generic folder at the top of the tree
[12:24] <mdke> right?
[12:25] <mdke> Riddell, i'm right to say there should be a gnome/debian and a kde/debian, rather than a debian/ and a kde/debian, yeah?
[12:25] <Burgundavia> are we planning any generic docs?
[12:25] <mdke> the server guide would be generic i think
[12:25] <Burgundavia> yes
[12:26] <mdke> and there may be more, such as docs ported from the wiki
[12:26] <Burgundavia> what about a top level server directory
[12:26] <mdke> i think generic/ is the best way to go
[12:26] <Riddell> mdke: no, w il sare debian packaging
[12:26] <Riddell> no, we will share debian packaging
[12:26] <Riddell> I talked about this with dholbach
[12:26] <mdke> Riddell, so kde/debian needs to move?
[12:26] <Riddell> yes
[12:27] <mdke> Riddell, could you run us through that?
[12:27] <mdke> it's the first we've heard
[12:27] <judax> damn, I have to go, sorry will read the logs
[12:27] <Riddell> we should be ubuntu/ kubuntu/ common/ and debian/
[12:28] <mdke> Riddell, sure, i mean can you run us through the reasons?
[12:28] <mdke> because i think that is likely to prevent ubuntu-docs from moving to gnome-doc-utils build process
[12:29] <corey_> bloody hell
[12:29] <ajmitch> the usual conference fun
[12:29] <corey_> mdke, why?
[12:29] <Riddell> I don't know about gnome-doc-utils
[12:29] <Riddell> network here is terrible
[12:29] <corey_> Riddell, I mentioned it to you
[12:29] <mdke> Riddell, we have been talking about moving to it with jbailey 
[12:30] <Kamion> mdke: mdz and I think that your comment about a documentation string freeze on DapperReleaseProcess is pretty much at the discretion of the doc team
[12:30] <corey_> mdke, jbailey will no longer be involved with packaging
[12:30] <Kamion> it seems perfectly reasonable to me
[12:30] <mdke> corey_, so?
[12:30] <mdke> Kamion, cool thanks
[12:30] <corey_> mdke, dholbach and riddell will be doing it
[12:30] <Kamion> mdke: except that pushing it back a week makes it collide with the distro's string freeze
[12:30] <mdke> corey_, i know, but what does that mean?
[12:31] <mdke> Kamion, we'll have to give it some more thought
[12:31] <corey_> mdke, jbailey is moving into support completely, away from half distro, half support
[12:31] <Kamion> mdke: ok, I don't think it needs to be decided immediately
[12:31] <Kamion> anyway, apologies for interrupting your meeting
[12:31] <mdke> corey_, you've said that on the mailing list, but what has that to do with gnome-doc-utils?
[12:31] <corey_> mdke, not much
[12:31] <mdke> Kamion, np thanks for the indication
[12:31] <corey_> but we are straying far from the agenda
[12:32] <mdke> i disagree
[12:32] <mdke> the position of debian in the tree is part of the repository structure
[12:32] <mdke> anyhow, we can come back to it maybe?
[12:32] <corey_> we can talk about packaging at the next meeting, when it matters more
[12:32] <corey_> or in between
[12:33] <mdke> ok, we'll just leave the debian stuff where it is for now then
[12:34] <mdke> item 2?
[12:34] <corey_> moving the debian stuff will not majorily affect the writing of docs
[12:34] <mdke> no one is talking
[12:34] <mdke> :/
[12:34] <corey_> yes
[12:34] <corey_> shall we pass over the specific doc specs until we decide who is writing what?
[12:34] <mdke> i hope people will feel free to write anything
[12:35] <corey_> yes, but having one person that says they are working on one thing makes certain it is going to get written
[12:35] <rob^> sorry here
[12:35] <corey_> salut rob^ 
[12:35] <mdke> not that certain :p
[12:35] <rob^> hi corey_ 
[12:35] <corey_> yes, but more chance
[12:35] <mdke> anyhow, we should continue the current system of people being responsible for docs
[12:35] <kjcole> Well, that took bloody forever!  (Wireless being uncooperative.)
[12:36] <corey_> kjcole, you want to introduce yourself?
[12:36] <rob^> brb
[12:36] <kjcole> Nah.  ;-)  Kevin Cole from Gallaudet University, Brain-Washington, DC.
[12:36] <corey_> an LTSP guy
[12:36] <mdke> hello
[12:36] <kjcole> Hi all.
[12:37] <corey_> too bad jerome is not here
[12:37] <mdke> item 2: has everyone looked at the spec server guide?
[12:37] <corey_> mdke, did here what I said?
[12:37] <corey_> davidj_ubz, welcome
[12:37] <mdke> corey_, tbh if you eliminate specific docs, there is not gonna be much left on the agenda
[12:37] <corey_> davidj_ubz, you want to introduce yourself?
[12:37] <kjcole> mkde: Nope.  I'm relatively new here, and will probably watch, as I have much catching up to do
[12:37] <davidj_ubz> corey_: thank you.  I'm sorry I couldn't join you sooner.
[12:38] <davidj_ubz> I am the ltsp translations lead.
[12:38] <mdke> hi davidj
[12:38] <davidj_ubz> mdke: Hello.
[12:38] <corey_> mdke, not really. We can talk about what specifically each of us want to do, which helps the LTSP people and others a good idea of who to talk to
[12:38] <corey_> and people can begin drafting specs for docs
[12:40] <corey_> mdke, I propose we swap the desktop/server guides to after the decision of the who is doing what
[12:40] <mdke> just go ahead
[12:40] <corey_> ok
[12:40] <mdke> if you put something on the agenda page or say something here, it'll help me understand
[12:41] <corey_> ok
[12:41] <corey_> my thought was that people would say what they wanted to do for dapper
[12:41] <corey_> I want to work primarily on the wiki and the launchpad landing pages
[12:42] <corey_> after they said that, I would edit the docteamprojects page accordingly
[12:42] <rob^> a half a slab of beer and greezy bacon and eggs at the hotel bar plays havac on your insides
[12:42] <mdke> heh
[12:42] <mdke> is the DocteamProjects page out of date?
[12:43] <mdke> i updated it only last week
[12:43] <mdke> and the kde stuff is quite up to date too i think
[12:43] <bhuvan> but, couple preview/status pages were broken
[12:43] <rob^> what are we up to?
[12:43] <bhuvan> s/couple/couple of/
[12:43] <mdke> rob^, we're off-agenda for the moment
[12:43] <rob^> ah
[12:43] <mdke> bhuvan, yes, it is so early in the cycle that previews won't work properly right now
[12:44] <corey_> rob^, we are discussing what each person is doing for the dapper release cycle
[12:44] <bhuvan> i meant, it was leading to wrong url
[12:44] <rob^> ok
[12:44] <bhuvan> couple of links had been corrected
[12:44] <mdke> bhuvan, no big deal, but we can remove links if they are broken
[12:45] <rob^> well I'm happy to keep working on the desktop guide and help contribute to the server guide
[12:45] <mdke> brb, switching computers
[12:45] <corey_> excellent
[12:45] <corey_> bhuvan, what would you to work on for the dapper release?
[12:45] <mdke> rob^, will you be working on kubuntu docs?
[12:46] <bhuvan> i must contribute to server guide spec
[12:46] <corey_> bhuvan, do you want to be the primary author of the server guide?
[12:46] <mdke> erm
[12:46] <mdke> he hasn't got commit access yet
[12:46] <corey_> that is fine
[12:46] <rob^> mdke, most likely not, I offered some help to the kubuntu desktop guide/faqguide but jjesse said he had it under control
[12:46] <corey_> commit access is not a major barrior
[12:47] <corey_> s/barrior/barrier
[12:47] <mdke> perhaps some patches first corey_ ?
[12:47] <corey_> mdke, sure
[12:47] <rob^> +1 to that
[12:47] <bhuvan> i can submit patches to server guide
[12:47] <corey_> what I am trying to have by the end of this meeting is a clear idea of who is working on what
[12:47] <mdke> the requirement is to enable us to see that the new contributor is serious, which I am sure is not a problem in bhuvan's case, but i think it should remain
[12:47] <corey_> so if other people come to ask, we can point them to the correct person
[12:48] <mdke> perhaps asking newcomers to take responsibility for a whole doc is unrealistic
[12:48] <corey_> and we can thus create specs before the next meeting to be talked about
[12:48] <rob^> mdke, agreed
[12:48] <mdke> anyhow, i hope to contribute to the desktopguide, and continue working on translations and taking care of the server. Also I am gonna push the better-wiki-docs spec
[12:48] <rob^> I think they should start by just submitting small patches that fix typos, bugs etc
[12:49] <rob^> mdke, are you still going to take the lead on the server guide?
[12:49] <mdke> no, i never intended to really
[12:49] <mdke> you are heaps more technically proficient, and bhuvan too
[12:49] <kjcole> As I mentioned to Corey and Jane, I'm leaning towards involvement with Edubuntu docs, particularly stuff based on the Tuxlab Cookbook... I think.
[12:49] <rob^> oh, I kind of assumed you were..
[12:50] <rob^> np
[12:50] <mdke> kjcole, that is awesome
[12:50] <rob^> yes, edubuntu can use some love
[12:50] <Burgundavia> jeffsch, are you going to be working on the style guide again?
[12:51] <jeffsch> yep
[12:51] <Burgundavia> are we going to drop the learn linux stuff from our repos?
[12:51] <rob^> if (and I mean IF) I get time I'll do something for xubuntu too, but it is very low priority
[12:51] <rob^> Burgundavia, we 
[12:51] <rob^> grr
[12:52] <mdke> Burgundavia, let's keep to the agenda as much as we can
[12:52] <Burgundavia> I am
[12:52] <mdke> that is last
[12:52] <Burgundavia> we are discussing specific people and specifc docs for dapper
[12:52] <mdke> ok
[12:53] <mdke> -1 on learn linux
[12:53] <mdke> it is being actively developed elsewhere
[12:53] <rob^> so why do we need it?
[12:53] <mdke> we don't
[12:53] <rob^> so why do we need to keep it?
[12:53] <mdke> we don't
[12:53] <Burgundavia> ok
[12:53] <mdke> everyone ok with scrapping that?
[12:54] <Burgundavia> ys
[12:54] <rob^> np here
[12:54] <mdke> ok, on we go
[12:54] <rob^> lazerjock expressed intrest in working on the motu/packaging doc
[12:54] <Burgundavia> I spoke with motus about moving to our repos
[12:54] <rob^> he works with motu already iirc
[12:55] <Burgundavia> they liked the idea
[12:55] <mdke> LaserJock!
[12:55] <rob^> I think it would be excellent
[12:55] <LaserJock> I am a MOTUWannabe kinda but I have more interest in new user documentation
[12:55] <mdke> welcome
[12:55] <mdke> LaserJock, are you only interested in working on a packaging guide, or also other docs?
[12:56] <kjcole> LaserJock, we may be in the same boat...
[12:56] <LaserJock> well, I don't know. I don't have much time (I just started a MOTUScience team)
[12:56] <mdke> fair enough
[12:56] <bhuvan> ok. with regard to server guide, as i'm new, if someone takes the lead, i'm sure to back them consistently and stand responsible for dapper release
[12:57] <LaserJock> I really don't know how much time is required, etc.
[12:57] <LaserJock> I don't want to bite off more than I can chew ;-)
[12:57] <mdke> bhuvan, that's great news, rob^ has also said he will work on it
[12:57] <Burgundavia> ok, added the packaging guide to DocteamProjects
[12:57] <rob^> bhuvan, well I can do that for now as I know the guide
[12:57] <mdke> LaserJock, no obligations :) whenever you wanna submit a patch, we'll check it out and apply it
[12:57] <Burgundavia> LaserJock, you want to speak with Unfrgiven to get us the doc so we can put it into our repos?
[12:57] <LaserJock> mdke: thanks
[12:57] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: will do
[12:57] <mdke> thank you
[12:58] <Burgundavia> thanks
[12:58] <rob^> bhuvan, when your ready we can organise a commit account and you can take over
[12:58] <bhuvan> ok
[12:58] <mdke> shall we talk about the server guide a little?
[12:58] <rob^> sure
[12:58] <mdke> does anyone have any comments on the spec?
[12:58] <rob^> I just did a brain dump on there a few days ago
[12:59] <rob^> I think some of the AD stuff could go though
[12:59] <mdke> I'd like to see the section titles a little more user friendly
[12:59] <bhuvan> ok
[12:59] <mdke> although obviously a server guide will be targeted at experienced users...
[12:59] <bhuvan> imo, we can be more specific
[12:59] <mdke> i think that some bits will be very relevant to new users
[12:59] <mdke> and we should make em accessible
[12:59] <rob^> so would I, but I just wanted to get the relevent parts we need to cover on the page
[01:00] <mdke> sure, the material rocks
[01:00] <mdke> bhuvan, go on
[01:00] <rob^> so its pretty raw
[01:00] <bhuvan> we can add few more sections under under services section (for example, under http we can add howto configure module)
[01:01] <bhuvan> if need be, we may also add details about webmin
[01:01] <bhuvan> again under ftp, we can add pros/cons various ftp servers
[01:01] <mdke> good idea
[01:01] <rob^> bhuvan, I thought about webmin myself, it should be there as well
[01:01] <mdke> although there is a module section under http
[01:01] <bhuvan> ok
[01:01] <mdke> bhuvan, feel free to work on it and expand it before the writing starts
[01:01] <rob^> bhuvan, feel free to go nuts on that wiki page
[01:02] <bhuvan> ok
[01:02] <rob^> heh
[01:02] <bhuvan> sure
[01:02] <mdke> i'd like to see it as user-accessible as possible, personally
[01:02] <bhuvan> ok
[01:02] <mdke> else, people will complain that we cut stuff out of the faqguide and made it hard to get at
[01:02] <Burgundavia> can everybody check DocteamProjects, as I have updated it quite a lot
[01:02] <bhuvan> ok
[01:03] <rob^> mdke, sure but as everything will be done on the command line you still need to get everything across, just explain it properly
[01:03] <bhuvan> anyhow, server guide is meant for admin/experieced users, imo
[01:03] <rob^> what is Docs on the wiki?
[01:04] <mdke> rob^, it's the section titles I'm really concerned about, because that will be the key to allowing people to access the simpler sections
[01:04] <rob^> and Launchpad Landing pages?
[01:04] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah the docs on the wiki section is redundant, we have wiki pages
[01:04] <mdke> morn
[01:04] <jsgotangco> sorry *blushes*
[01:04] <rob^> hi jsgotangco 
[01:04] <jsgotangco> i slept at 3am
[01:04] <jsgotangco> :)
[01:04] <ajmitch> hi jsgotangco 
[01:04] <Burgundavia> mdke, we need a person that people can talk to about the wiki
[01:04] <Burgundavia> I am volunteering for that person
[01:04] <mdke> Burgundavia, there is a wikiteam section on that page
[01:05] <mdke> Burgundavia, we also have a mailing list, and irc
[01:05] <Riddell> can DocteamProjects please reference KubuntuDocs
[01:05] <rob^> maybe just make the pointer to the wiki team more obvious
[01:05] <mdke> i don't see a need for a specific person
[01:05] <Burgundavia> mdke, I don't completely understand
[01:05] <Burgundavia> mdke, I do
[01:05] <jsgotangco> Riddell: sure I'll update it now
[01:05] <rob^> Riddell, it does
[01:05] <Burgundavia> rob^, I will clean that up
[01:05] <mdke> Riddell, all the kubuntu docs are there
[01:05] <mdke> Burgundavia, go ahead
[01:05] <rob^> great :)
[01:06] <mdke> why is there a need for a single point of contact for the wiki?
[01:06] <Burgundavia> mdke, currently the wiki pages are second class citizens. I want to remove that
[01:06] <mdke> sure, we all do
[01:06] <mdke> there are loads of ways to try and do that, but how will a SPOC help?
[01:06] <Burgundavia> that is why we have someone who says "I am working on the wiki as my primary doc'
[01:07] <rob^> maybe a more obvious pointer on the main wiki page to the wikiteam is needed too
[01:07] <mdke> we have a whole team that says that corey
[01:07] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:07] <Burgundavia> yes, but most of them do only very small amounts
[01:07] <mdke> Burgundavia, my question is, how does a SPOC help? I'm not saying that you shouldn't do loads of work on the wiki
[01:07] <bhuvan> or, we can maintain a list of things to do on wiki. whoever has time or inclined can take it and close it ?
[01:08] <mdke> bhuvan, absolutely
[01:08] <Burgundavia> bhuvan, we already have a list of things to do
[01:08] <bhuvan> i meant, it must be active
[01:08] <Burgundavia> bhuvan, it is, CategoryCleanup
[01:08] <jsgotangco> can LP be used to manage the work?
[01:09] <mdke> Burgundavia, i just wanna understand why you think having one person who appears to be, for the purposes of the outside work, "in charge" of wiki work, will help
[01:09] <rob^> Burgundavia, no objections to having a pointer to wikiteam and yourself, but it doesn't belong in the table as a "book"
[01:09] <mdke> outside work/outside world*
[01:09] <Burgundavia> rob^, but is a docteam project
[01:09] <bhuvan> imo, its one of them. for example, if we come accross a wiki page with broken links as such, we can make an entry in the todo page and address it when we get time
[01:09] <rob^> Burgundavia, that table is for books
[01:09] <Burgundavia> ok, I removed the header at the top that mentioned books
[01:10] <Burgundavia> now the page is all about the general projects we do, regardless of where they are developed
[01:10] <rob^> eh
[01:10] <mdke> but why is one person in charge of the wiki? that's not what the wiki is about
[01:10] <Burgundavia> mdke, no, not one person in charge, one person who is going to devote most of their time to the wiki
[01:11] <mdke> you are free to devote that time, and I encourage it, but why SPOC? the wiki is an alive nest of contribution from all
[01:11] <Burgundavia> because a SPOC creates order
[01:12] <Burgundavia> the wiki needs order, very badly
[01:12] <jsgotangco> a team doesn't?
[01:12] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:12] <Burgundavia> I am basically already that person, I am just talking the role
[01:12] <Burgundavia> for all pratical matters, it will matter very little
[01:12] <jsgotangco> sure
[01:12] <mdke> hmm
[01:12] <mdke> i'm slightly concerned by this
[01:12] <mdke> but let's move on
[01:13] <Burgundavia> if it becomes a problem, lets raise the specific issue
[01:13] <rob^> if we had control of the acl and moin settings for the wiki then sure we would need a person who can devote time, otherwise its meaningless
[01:13] <mdke> even then
[01:13] <Burgundavia> well, lets get that
[01:13] <mdke> henrik is the admin of the wiki
[01:13] <robitaille> and he is on that wiki LP team...
[01:13] <mdke> and having a volunteer as "wiki king" is a bit odd
[01:13] <Burgundavia> yes he is
[01:14] <Burgundavia> but the current wiki doesn't work, I am going to devote myself to understanding why it doesn't and where we can go to make it work
[01:14] <rob^> the wiki is a community thing..
[01:14] <mdke> i would prefer a group to be the contact for the wiki
[01:14] <mdke> rob^, +1
[01:14] <Burgundavia> bloody hell, I am not going to stop people writing on the wiki
[01:14] <rob^> mdke, +1
[01:14] <robitaille> personally I think on that DocteamProjects table we should simply put WikiTeam as the contact "person".
[01:14] <mdke> Burgundavia, we are not going to stop you either
[01:14] <Burgundavia> nor am I am going to tell people to shove off
[01:14] <rob^> Burgundavia, we never said that
[01:14] <mdke> ok well there is a reasonable consensus about this
[01:15] <robitaille> is there a way to send to send an email to all themember of a LP team?
[01:15] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, communites usually form around one key person
[01:15] <mdke> robitaille, we have a mailing list
[01:15] <jsgotangco> sure in the end, that person becomes overwhelmed
[01:15] <mdke> Burgundavia, dictatorships do anyhow
[01:16] <jsgotangco> well anyways, im not that much of a wiki person, i guess i'm not the right person to say it
[01:16] <robitaille> mdke,  true.  
[01:16] <Burgundavia> currently I have no different rights than anyone else and I don't expect tath will change very soon
[01:16] <rob^> we should move on, either way there is nothing we can do about it as we don't control the wiki
[01:16] <mdke> ok let's move on
[01:16] <mdke> Burgundavia, i think you've seen that the team prefers the wikiteam to be the contact
[01:16] <rob^> Burgundavia, if that changes, then sure I'm happy for you to lead it
[01:16] <Burgundavia> we are yelling at ghosts
[01:17] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: go ahead with the plan if you think it's the right path, we don't have ACLs at the moment, i don't think it'll change much :)
[01:17] <Burgundavia> no, I don't think it will either
[01:17] <jsgotangco> let's see how this pans out :)
[01:17] <Burgundavia> but we need someone who says "I work on the wiki"
[01:17] <jsgotangco> yes
[01:17] <mdke> Burgundavia, we have a group who says that
[01:17] <Burgundavia> otherwise it will continue towards entropy
[01:17] <mdke> ah well, this is stale
[01:17] <Burgundavia> mdke, they are not stopping the entropy
[01:17] <jsgotangco> at least i'll have someone to yell at when something gets borked :)
[01:17] <mdke> let's move on
[01:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is primary reason why I stepped up
[01:18] <jsgotangco> ok good enough for me then :)
[01:18] <mdke> i've always hated the idea of team leaders in Ubuntu
[01:18] <mdke> they don't work
[01:18] <jsgotangco> mdke: well the distro works :)
[01:18] <rob^> heh
[01:18] <mdke> yes
[01:18] <Burgundavia> yes, but neither does a completely anarchy
[01:19] <mdke> agreed, hence the team
[01:19] <Burgundavia> like the current wiki
[01:19] <Burgundavia> yes, but the team is currently not helping
[01:19] <mdke> that has nothing to do with having a SPOC
[01:19] <mdke> the problems on the wiki are deeper than that
[01:19] <Burgundavia> yes it is
[01:19] <rob^> (less painful you see)
[01:19] <mdke> rob^, :)
[01:19] <jsgotangco> quit it guys :)
[01:19] <Burgundavia> mdke, I agree, hence why I am going to devote all of my doc team time to it
[01:20] <rob^> Burgundavia, cool go nuts
[01:20] <rob^> anyway..
[01:20] <jsgotangco> ok so we have Burgundavia do all the wiki work sounds good
[01:20] <rob^> have we done repository layout?
[01:20] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: go nuts on the LP team as well, slave them up if possible, they didn't sign up for nothing :)
[01:21] <rob^> even if we don't change much around, some redundant stuff needs to go
[01:21] <Burgundavia> mdke, I don't have my freenode password here on this laptop, and thus cannot talk back to you in a /query
[01:21] <rob^> or at least sectioned off
[01:21] <mdke> ah crap
[01:22] <bhuvan> next its desktop guide ?
[01:22] <mdke> yes, ok
[01:23] <mdke> qanda format?
[01:24] <mdke> i'd like to scrap it, any views?
[01:24] <Burgundavia> mdke, scrap which?
[01:24] <mdke> the phrasing of the questions in the desktop guide
[01:24] <mdke> (agenda)
[01:24] <Burgundavia> ah
[01:24] <jsgotangco> qanda sets
[01:25] <Burgundavia> I am don't know either way
[01:25] <Burgundavia> I would like to get some real feedback
[01:25] <bhuvan> desktop guide. it's going to be q/a format or book format ?
[01:25] <mdke> me too
[01:25] <mdke> how?
[01:25] <jsgotangco> the qanda works, why change it totally?
[01:25] <mdke> hang on
[01:26] <mdke> i like the qanda, i just don't like the patronising way it the questions are phrased
[01:26] <mdke> i think qanda could be continued, but without questions
[01:26] <mdke> tell me if I didn't explain that properly on the agenda
[01:26] <rob^> back
[01:27] <jeffsch> ok, i have to go. cya later
[01:27] <bhuvan> ok
[01:27] <rob^> mdke, I think it could still be a book anyhow
[01:28] <bhuvan> but without questions
[01:28] <rob^> the qanda format is more for a faq type doc but the guides are moving away from that
[01:28] <rob^> the faq guide is a bloody big faq too
[01:28] <mdke> i think the qanda format preserves clarity and keeps things to the point
[01:28] <rob^> yes but it doesn't leave as much room for explination imo
[01:29] <rob^> ie it doesn't suit the format, as you said qanda is to the point
[01:30] <rob^> can we have a mix?
[01:30] <mdke> is it not possible to separate the explanation from the answers in some subtle way?
[01:30] <mdke> the reason people like the faqguide is that it is quick and easy
[01:30] <mdke> if we get bogged down, another ubuntuguide will spring up
[01:30] <rob^> mdke, usually with <note> tags
[01:30] <Burgundavia> Matthew Thomas likes the idea of dropping the q/a style for the faqguide
[01:30] <rob^> thats true
[01:30] <mdke> you can't combine <para> and qanda?
[01:30] <rob^> yes
[01:31] <mdke> ok...
[01:31] <rob^> but the how many faqs have you seen that have lots of paragraphs for each answer?
[01:31] <bhuvan> why are we retaining the q/a type, because its from faqguide ?
[01:31] <mdke> i think we are falling into the error of being tied to the terminology of "faq"
[01:31] <jsgotangco> because it works as is
[01:31] <mdke> the qanda thing works IMO
[01:32] <mdke> just because there is no longer going to be a document called faq, that is no reason not to use helpful technology
[01:32] <rob^> well what would be the best way to form the questions?
[01:32] <jsgotangco> its basically "snappy answers to stupid questions" kind of thing
[01:32] <mdke> ok lemme give you an example
[01:33] <mdke> what is a question in the guide?
[01:33] <rob^> the "how do I" format reminds me of an idiots guide 
[01:33] <mdke> "How can I setup apache" -> "setting up apache"
[01:33] <mdke> no need to change anything technical
[01:34] <rob^> whist we are on this topic, what are peoples thoughts about installing packages (gai/synaptic/aptitude)?
[01:35] <jsgotangco> i'd stick to gai
[01:35] <mdke> my view is that we should explain various ways
[01:35] <Burgundavia> gai is getting much simpler for dapper
[01:35] <rob^> I really hope gai gets a way to install packages without the .desktop files (most of them)
[01:35] <Burgundavia> rob^, not going to happen
[01:35] <Burgundavia> rob^, file bugs on packages that don't have .desktop files
[01:35] <rob^> then what is the point of it?
[01:35] <mdke> and when documenting a specific program, refer back to the installation instructions, and specify the package and the repository
[01:35] <rob^> thats 95% of the packages
[01:35] <mpt> yo
[01:36] <jsgotangco> yo
[01:36] <Burgundavia> rob^, because we can fix that
[01:36] <Burgundavia> rob^, anyway, offtopic now
[01:36] <mdke> guys, guys
[01:36] <rob^> how? we need to figure out how we are going to write about it
[01:36] <mdke> what is wrong with documenting all installation methods?
[01:36] <Burgundavia> mdke, because we confuse users?
[01:36] <mdke> in any case, each individual section will not repeat the instructions, they will be in one place
[01:36] <mpt> "You can do this or do this or do this or do this" isn't good help
[01:36] <jsgotangco> because it defaats the purpose of creating gai in the first place?
[01:37] <mdke> mpt, that is not how I would envisage doing it
[01:37] <mpt> for a complicated thing that people don't want to do often
[01:37] <rob^> mdke, because having to switch installation methods makes Linux and Ubuntu look stupid and hacker-ish
[01:37] <mdke> you dont' have to switch
[01:37] <mdke> you just explain the relative advantages and disadvantages
[01:37] <mdke> its a guide, people can learn
[01:37] <jsgotangco> mdke: then its better off as a book
[01:38] <mdke> what is the difference?
[01:38] <mdke> book, guide, faq, whatever
[01:38] <mdke> it's the same
[01:38] <kjcole> Multiple choices confuse newcomers.  If you're going to offer all, recommend one more strongly, and make sure it's the first...
[01:38] <rob^> yes I agree
[01:38] <mdke> oh sure
[01:38] <mdke> that i take for granted
[01:38] <kjcole> (The first listed in the doc I mean.)
[01:39] <mdke> jsgotangco, if Fedora told you to jump off a cliff... 
[01:39] <rob^> heh
[01:39] <mpt> Not all distro problems have a documentation solution
[01:39] <mpt> Confusion about installation methods is a distro problem
[01:39] <kjcole> I dunno...  Seems when I installed fedora I encountered references to both up2date and yum pretty quickly.
[01:39] <mpt> So just make the best of it.
[01:39] <jsgotangco> mdke: that's not the point, these new installation methods were made with a specific mindset and a general audience...
[01:39] <rob^> but installing packages is pretty important and solves most of our problems
[01:39] <rob^> in the docs
[01:40] <kjcole> Could just be my faulty memory and a lot of pre-exposure to other RH variants.
[01:40] <mdke> jsgotangco, i agree. however the desktop guide addresses LOADS of things that you can't use gai to sort out
[01:40] <rob^> mdke, and thats the problem
[01:40] <mdke> i think it should be offered as the general means to install things, and then the alternatives should be explained and the advs/disadvs noted
[01:40] <jsgotangco> mdke: if you don't rally around gai, which is an ubuntu specific app, then whats your priority then
[01:41] <mdke> my priority would be teaching users how things work
[01:41] <jsgotangco> mdke: gai still uses synaptic for all its worth, which can do most things that aptitude does (only aptitude is cleaner imo)
[01:41] <robitaille> actually you can call synaptic from within GAI, so technically most things can be done from gai
[01:41] <rob^> but then we can't stick to the point, we have to explain things
[01:41] <mdke> and allowing them to try apt-get and see if they prefer it
[01:41] <jsgotangco> mdke: sure but your guides must have scope in the first place, otherwise, you'll end up in a mess
[01:42] <jsgotangco> the keywords here are "scope & limitation"
[01:42] <mdke> jsgotangco, yes, i think this can be done with minimal confusion, along the lines of what kjcole outlined
[01:43] <mdke> we will lose a lot of readers if we don't explain how to use apt-get
[01:43] <mdke> IMHO
[01:43] <jsgotangco> mdke: that's why google is our friend
[01:43] <rob^> but the thing is we did in the faq guide in Breezy, and listed the packages, and people still complained
[01:43] <mdke> jsgotangco, that is also why forked guides happen
[01:44] <mdke> rob^, yeah I don't think the approach of the faqguide is a long way off what I'd like to see
[01:44] <jsgotangco> mdke: you can't avoid those, people scratch their own itch
[01:44] <mdke> jsgotangco, we need to listen to people's itches
[01:44] <mdke> not just our own
[01:44] <Burgundavia> mdke, we can talk about apt-get in the server guide
[01:44] <rob^> yep
[01:44] <Burgundavia> I would remove it from the desktop guide
[01:44] <jsgotangco> mdke: in my opinion, it would take a full-time job to do such
[01:44] <kjcole> In fact, since it's HTML, a "surface document" that offers the most useful, simplest straightforward way for everything, and then a deeper layer for edge cases, or "challenging" stuff.
[01:46] <mdke> hmm
[01:46] <mdke> jsgotangco, so you don't like the current section in the faqguide about installing?
[01:46] <rob^> well I guess we will go gai then launch synaptic from gai when needed, and mention apt-get in the preface like the faqguide kind of did?
[01:46] <mdke> hmm
[01:47] <mdke> gai, then launch synaptic when needed is pretty lame, thinking about it
[01:47] <bhuvan> ok. in addition, we must remove couple of sections from desktop guide which already exists in server guide
[01:47] <bhuvan> they should not overlap
[01:47] <rob^> mdke, yep
[01:47] <mdke> bhuvan, yes, we haven't started doing that yet, they are currently identical copies
[01:47] <rob^> mdke, I know
[01:47] <bhuvan> ok
[01:48] <rob^> well almost identical
[01:48] <jsgotangco> mdke: i didn't say i don't like it, its just not written in a way that ubuntu make it so, which is gai/synaptic, these apps were developed with a purpose of simplification, as much as possible, we as official documentors should focus on such projects, after all, what we write are part of the distro, as much as personal preferences on our side matter, it shouldn't
[01:48] <mdke> but if gai is the only tool to install things from the menu, we have no choice
[01:49] <mdke> jsgotangco, the problem is that the desktopguide doesn't deal with things like "how to install gnome-blog" it deals with things like "install gstreamer0.8-plugins" or "gdesklets-data"
[01:49] <Burgundavia> mdke, synaptic is not going away for dapper and can be launched from within gai
[01:49] <mdke> Burgundavia, yeah but if we ask people to search through gai for a package, then to open synaptic if they don't find it, they are gonna be pissed off at us
[01:50] <Burgundavia> mdke, yes, there is no clean solution
[01:50] <rob^> Burgundavia, not as far as I can see either
[01:50] <mdke> unless we tell them where every single package is
[01:50] <mdke> or use apt-get for everything :)
[01:50] <Burgundavia> ouch
[01:50] <jsgotangco> mdke: in the first place, gai isn't properlty documented yet, hence people will definitely assume a lot, that's why synaptic is mentioned as an advanced tool
[01:50] <mdke> or synaptic for everything
[01:50] <bhuvan> we can instruct to use gai in the beginning and continue to use synaptic
[01:50] <kjcole> Oops.  Time's flying, and I need to catch someone before 8:00 (Montreal time).  Ta-ta.
[01:51] <bhuvan> iirc, similar to debian dselect first and continue with apt-get
[01:51] <jsgotangco> later kjcole 
[01:51] <rob^> I think this is more an issue of gai itself, heck even us documenters can't even figure this out!
[01:51] <bhuvan> :)
[01:51] <mdke> bhuvan, jsgotangco, but the problem is that the desktop guide does not only deal with installing mainstream programs, but rather installing niggly packages needed to configure stuff like dvds and such
[01:51] <rob^> all gai needs is a better way to install packages that are not in its lists, even just a simple dialog box where you could type the package names would suffice
[01:51] <rob^> then it is a one stop shop
[01:52] <bhuvan> we are clear that couple of packages cant be found by gai. so we must look for an alternative, right ?
[01:52] <mdke> does it have a search tool?
[01:52] <rob^> its gai that is lacking here imo
[01:52] <jsgotangco> mdke: i'd really want to define scope and limiation for the docs atm, or else, it'll never end we're just trying to cover too much in my opinion
[01:52] <mdke> jsgotangco, ok are you suggesting scrapping the desktopguide? a lot of work went into it last release
[01:53] <jsgotangco> mdke: i didn't say anything about scrapping, i said scope
[01:53] <mdke> sure, but a doc with a scope which is tailored for gai would mean a radically stripped down desktopguide from what it is right now
[01:53] <jsgotangco> what's your scope? who's your audience? everyone? that's a pretty hefty task in my opinion even if you are faced a 3 year support cycle for desktop
[01:53] <rob^> getting my multimedia to work properly is within its scope..
[01:53] <mdke> we'd have to remove most of the useful stuff actually
[01:54] <rob^> cant do that just using gai alone though
[01:54] <mdke> no
[01:54] <mdke> things that can't be resolved using gai need MORE documentation, not less
[01:55] <rob^> I think the opposite is true here though, gai needs MORE work.. 
[01:55] <jsgotangco> rob^: give some credit to the devels, for 6 months work (or less), its pretty good
[01:55] <rob^> as a package installation tool I find it useless as it is limited in what it can do
[01:55] <mdke> jsgotangco, i totally agree about scope, but I just disagree with the scope that the desktopguide should have
[01:55] <bhuvan> so, let our document not depend on it tooo much..
[01:55] <mdke> the document really can't depend on it too much
[01:56] <jsgotangco> well in another POV, the sources.list contains all the repos really so go figure :)
[01:56] <mdke> or we'll have to remove most of multimedia, and loads of tips and tricks
[01:56] <rob^> then we will have another ubuntu guide on our hands
[01:56] <Burgundavia> there is going to be a completely new repo dialog for dapper
[01:57] <mdke> exactly
[01:57] <rob^> forking is not always a good thing
[01:57] <mdke> no
[01:57] <Burgundavia> but gai will not deal with the corner cases until dapper+1
[01:57] <bhuvan> yeah
[01:57] <rob^> Burgundavia, if we get lucky :)
[01:57] <mdke> unless gai can install gstreamer0.8-mad, we are going to HAVE to include other methods of support
[01:57] <mdke> or remove vital stuff from the guide
[01:58] <mdke> OR specify in every case which package manager to use
[01:58] <Burgundavia> rob^, no, it will happen for dapper+1
[01:58] <bhuvan> we must not remove vital stuff from doc just due to inability of gai
[01:58] <rob^> mdke, thats how I see we are going to have to do it
[01:58] <mdke> bhuvan, 100% agreed with you
[01:58] <Burgundavia> I think it might be better to list that we need to use synaptic to install the non-gai stuff
[01:58] <bhuvan> lets give an introduction about gai and move on using another convenient tool
[01:58] <rob^> Burgundavia, it could happen now if they implemented the suggestion I mentoned earlier
[01:59] <Burgundavia> and list gai general
[01:59] <Burgundavia> rob^, what was that?
[01:59] <bhuvan> as Burgundavia said, it would be stablilized in dapper+1, so we can make amendments by that time
[01:59] <rob^> Burgundavia, just a simple dialog in gai where you could type the package names, it could then use apt-get to install them, problem solved for now :)
[01:59] <mdke> i think we are going to have to see how it develops, to a certain extent
[02:00] <Burgundavia> rob^, hmm, might be an idea
[02:00] <rob^> heck I could dodgy something up with python that would do it in a few hours
[02:00] <mdke> yes it is a good idea
[02:00] <mdke> get onto -devel about it
[02:00] <rob^> then users could just copy/paste from our guide
[02:00] <bhuvan> imo, now, lets propose a method, conduct voting and close it at the earliest!
[02:00] <mdke> bhuvan, i think it is too early, we will need to see how gai develops
[02:01] <bhuvan> ok
[02:01] <rob^> yep
[02:01] <bhuvan> ok
[02:01] <bhuvan> then, we can let it boil till next meeting ?
[02:01] <mdke> are we going to come to a decision on whether to use "questions"?
[02:01] <rob^> mdke, I think just drop "how do I
[02:01] <rob^> "
[02:01] <mdke> rob^, +1
[02:01] <davidj_ubz> 'night
[02:02] <rob^> still keep qanda as changing it will be too much work for not much benifit
[02:02] <mdke> +1
[02:02] <rob^> s/benifit/benefit
[02:02] <mdke> couldn't agree more
[02:02] <rob^> ok problem sovled I guess
[02:03] <rob^> s/sovled/solved
[02:03] <mdke> i hope to also integrate a bit of the old userguide into the desktop guide
[02:03] <rob^> grr bloody hangover
[02:03] <rob^> yes
[02:03] <rob^> that is what I'm planning on doing where possible, no need to reinvent the wheel
[02:04] <mdke> cool
[02:04] <mdke> i have a question on serverguide, everyone agrees it can be common to ubuntu/kubuntu?
[02:04] <mdke> i do
[02:04] <rob^> I'll just have to add the userguide authors to the desktop guide 
[02:05] <rob^> mdke, yes
[02:05] <rob^> mdke, as its command line based it doesn't matter much
[02:05] <jsgotangco> a server has no X so it's common
[02:05] <bhuvan> agreed
[02:05] <jsgotangco> unless we have X tools
[02:05] <rob^> and they use the same repos so everything is exactly the same
[02:05] <mdke> well, that's not true, but I know what you mean :D
[02:05] <rob^> ?
[02:05] <mdke> the serverguide can be used by people who run X
[02:06] <mdke> lots of desktop users want to install apache
[02:06] <jsgotangco> sure 
[02:06] <mdke> ok cool, moving on
[02:06] <rob^> they can using apt-get regardless what they use
[02:06] <jsgotangco> what i meant is that a server guide would only use CLI tools as we don't have gtk/qt server apps atm
[02:06] <jsgotangco> not the actual usage
[02:06] <bhuvan> yeah, in desktop guide we can point them to server guide if need be
[02:07] <mdke> yeah absolutely
[02:07] <mdke> right, can we talk about kubuntu docs a bit?
[02:07] <rob^> sure
[02:07] <mdke> jjesse isn't here :/
[02:07] <rob^> yeah 
[02:07] <jsgotangco> KubuntuDocs is available though
[02:07] <rob^> I mentioned kudos/kubuntu desktop guide but was told it was under control
[02:07] <mdke> the KubuntuDocs page is very good
[02:07] <mdke> very well organised
[02:08] <jsgotangco> it already got BOF'ed and speced so that'll be ths scope of work
[02:08] <mdke> We should get it integrated with DocteamProjects if possible
[02:08] <rob^> umm, isn't that the reason we have docteamprojects page?
[02:08] <mdke> although the kubuntu docs are there already, it's annoying to have 2 frames of reference
[02:08] <jsgotangco> Kubuntu is a natural desktop oriented release so there is tighter scope
[02:08] <jsgotangco> rob^: KubuntuDocs is an ubz spec, yes it can be added to DocteamProjects
[02:09] <rob^> cool
[02:09] <mdke> i think it should be merged in
[02:09] <mdke> ok last couple of agenda items
[02:09] <mdke> installation guide?
[02:09] <rob^> I've seen some intrest in this by people
[02:09] <rob^> but we really have to wait and see what happens with ubuntu express
[02:09] <mdke> hopefully they will come forward again
[02:10] <rob^> because there won't be an "install cd" then
[02:10] <mdke> yeah ok
[02:10] <mdke> last thing
[02:10] <mdke> cleaning up trunk
[02:10] <mdke> learnlinux we decided is going
[02:11] <mdke> what else is there that shouldn't be?
[02:11] <jsgotangco> kde upstream if posssible
[02:11] <rob^> do we need the upstream stuff?
[02:11] <rob^> I don't really use it
[02:11] <mdke> i don't think so
[02:11] <jsgotangco> no one uses it
[02:11] <mdke> we certainly don't need it for the docs as they are defined right now
[02:11] <mdke> so they can go too!
[02:11] <mdke> yay
[02:11] <rob^> if I wanted to I'd get the latest copy from the relevent repos
[02:11] <bhuvan> ok. kde/debian ?
[02:11] <jsgotangco> sean added them before for vendor drops i believe
[02:12] <mdke> bhuvan, we can talk about that later on in the cycle i believe
[02:12] <bhuvan> oh, fine
[02:12] <rob^> can gnome and kde be renamed to ubuntu and kubuntu instead?
[02:12] <mdke> :D
[02:12] <mdke> rob^, yeah we thought on balance that would be a good idea
[02:13] <mdke> jsgotangco, any objections?
[02:13] <rob^> same
[02:13] <bhuvan> rob^, +1
[02:13] <mdke> we had a brief chat before you turned up about it
[02:13] <rob^> at least new people will know where to look
[02:13] <mdke> no one else objected
[02:13] <rob^> cool
[02:13] <jsgotangco> none at all
[02:13] <mdke> jerome?
[02:13] <mdke> cool
[02:13] <jsgotangco> holler us when we can svn up
[02:14] <mdke> will do
[02:14] <rob^> and generic can probably go altogether
[02:14] <mdke> rob^, we'll need it for serverguide
[02:14] <bhuvan> when we talk about clean-up, we have couple of invalid docs in trunk
[02:14] <rob^> mdke, oh yeah true
[02:14] <bhuvan> i meant, ./validate.sh fails
[02:14] <mdke> bhuvan, yes
[02:14] <mdke> does anyone know why?
[02:15] <bhuvan> can you have a script to validate all docs at end of day
[02:15] <bhuvan> ??
[02:15] <rob^> there is a problem with a few docs I think
[02:15] <rob^> the desktop/server guides validate properly iirc
[02:15] <bhuvan> if any of them are invalid, an email should be sent
[02:15] <bhuvan> may be to our mailing list
[02:15] <bhuvan> someone can poke into to address it
[02:16] <mdke> the current invalid docs are kquickguide and kuserguide iirc
[02:16] <bhuvan> ok
[02:16] <rob^> bhuvan, if you run into any problems just ask
[02:17] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: what is Launchpad Landing Pages about? its an LP thing right so why add it as a project?
[02:17] <rob^> jsgotangco, I was thinking the same thing
[02:17] <mdke> yeah me too
[02:17] <bhuvan> not really, but i want all docs to be valid all the time. if its not, it should be brought to notice
[02:17] <mdke> yes
[02:17] <jsgotangco> LP is supposed to give different support options, its a business oriented approach
[02:17] <mdke> bhuvan, the problem is, no one knows how to fix it
[02:17] <mdke> jsgotangco, yeah i think it will be mainly paid support
[02:18] <rob^> is not really a docteam project
[02:18] <rob^> we don't do the help pages for it
[02:18] <jsgotangco> ok can someone mail to the list what specific docs are not validating
[02:18] <jsgotangco> so we can triage them
[02:18] <bhuvan> mdke, ok
[02:18] <mdke> jsgotangco, there have been like 10 mails about it in the last week
[02:18] <mdke> kquickguide and kuserguide don't validate because of a problem they have with ccbysa.xml
[02:18] <bhuvan> mdke, atleast now, i'll check manually and see whether i can address it
[02:19] <mdke> thanks bhuvan, would be great if you can
[02:19] <rob^> mdke, I think its the way it includes them from memory
[02:19] <rob^> they need to use xinclude instead of entities
[02:19] <mdke> well they should be working as entities too
[02:19] <jsgotangco> mdke: at least a list of all docs that won't validate will be useful i get like 200 emails a day...i have time later to look into it otheres will probably find it useful too
[02:19] <mdke> jsgotangco, those emails listed the two docs that don't validate
[02:20] <mdke> and the error
[02:20] <jsgotangco> ok only 2 docs then
[02:20] <mdke> afaik yes
[02:20] <jsgotangco> can i svn up now?
[02:20] <mdke> sure, i haven't committed the rename yet
[02:21] <rob^> using xinclude is a little different from entities, when you use xinclude the included page needs to have a full header whereas as an entity it is put exactly as is in the doc
[02:21] <jsgotangco> err just deleted learnlinux?
[02:21] <rob^> it puts it exactly as is I meant to say
[02:21] <mdke> jsgotangco, problem?
[02:21] <jsgotangco> mdke: no i thought it'll be much more than that
[02:21] <mdke> jsgotangco, i haven't finished...
[02:22] <mdke> :)
[02:22] <mdke> just cleaning up my local tree first
[02:22] <rob^> we should be using xincludes anyway for translation
[02:22] <jsgotangco> ok
[02:22] <mdke> rob^, yeah ideally
[02:22] <jsgotangco> i should go downstairs for breakfast
[02:22] <rob^> I'll fix it after you upload your changes
[02:22] <jsgotangco> so anything else?
[02:23] <mdke> i think that does it
[02:23] <jsgotangco> ok that was a good 3 hours at least
[02:23] <mdke> 2 and a half
[02:23] <rob^> nope
[02:23] <mdke> actually 2, we started late ;)
[02:24] <mdke> anyway, was a heated one
[02:24] <jsgotangco> its a nice sunny saturday morning here 
[02:24] <mdke> thanks all, glad we sorted most stuff out
[02:24] <mdke> jsgotangco, it's freezing here :)
[02:24] <jsgotangco> sucks to be there then
[02:24] <mdke> lol
[02:24] <bhuvan> cool
[02:24] <mdke> my boss was in manila last week
[02:24] <rob^> heh
[02:24] <mdke> bhuvan, where are you from by the way?
[02:24] <mhz_shower> .oO(it seems I mistaken the UTC time :((( )
[02:24] <bhuvan> india, chennai
[02:24] <rob^> I ah just updated DocteamProjects
[02:24] <mdke> bhuvan, ah, i'm afraid I don't know where that is :)
[02:24] <bhuvan> :)
[02:25] <bhuvan> hope you may know india ?
[02:25] <jsgotangco> bhuvan: whoa what time is it there? 3am?
[02:25] <bhuvan> chennai is one of the metro in south side
[02:25] <bhuvan> its 6:55am now
[02:25] <mdke> yeah i've heard of india
[02:25] <jsgotangco> mdke: sure british east india company lol
[02:25] <mdke> :)
[02:26] <bhuvan> absolutely!
[02:26] <mdke> anyhow i wanna keep talking, let's go back to #doc
[02:26] <rob^> sure
[09:45] <\sh> ok..
[09:45] <LaserJock> wait, is it now?
[09:46] <KyralRetsam> yes
[09:46] <\sh> all motus and motus wanna be yes
[09:46] <magnon> Ubuntu MOTU meeting here right now
[09:46] <\sh> are sitting here now
[09:46] <LaserJock> crap, stupid daylight savings ;-)
[09:48] <magnon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
[09:48] <zakame> hi all
[09:48] <dholbach> hi everybody
[09:48] <\sh> ok...it's quite difficult now...i'll try to write up all the statements we have here in montreal
[09:48] <slomo> hi everybody :)
[09:48] <KyralRetsam> yo
[09:49] <sladen> I thought people were going to be physically in the same place too
[09:49] <bmonty_laptop> someone needs to buy \sh a beer if he is going to type everything they say in Montreal
[09:49] <KyralRetsam> lol
[09:49] <dholbach> sladen: we are... comfy chairs
[09:49] <sladen> dholbach: bar?
[09:49] <zakame> hihi
[09:49] <dholbach> sladen: yes
[09:50] <highvoltage> i'm a motu-wannabe, but i want to sign up in a few weeks time, i just want to watch for now.
[09:51] <magnon> we
[09:51] <magnon> we're having our meeting in montreal right now live, so we're trying to put up our main points
[09:51] <magnon> Our main problem is that version freeze and feature freeze is six and eight weeks away
[09:51] <magnon> and we have 1000+ merges
[09:51] <KyralRetsam>  You guys should put up the channel on like a projector ;P
[09:52] <zakame> magnon: gaah
[09:52] <magnon> about 1300 I believe
[09:52] <KyralRetsam> 6 weeks?! Yikes....
[09:52] <\sh> we're discussing right now, that we have only 6 weeks of open development, means, that we can only in this timeframe new packages into universe and doing all the merges of our packages which have ubuntu versions
[09:52] <tritium> where's the live video feed of the meeting?  ;)
[09:52] <magnon> keep the noise ratio down too please...
[09:52] <KyralRetsam> sorry
[09:53] <sladen> > even if we get a new upstream version we should always consier taking the debian version 
[09:53] <sladen> > we will try and merge rounds
[09:53] <sladen> > who decies on which pakcage goes into which round---keybuk's descisesion?
[09:53] <sladen> > it was a disccusion in the release process
[09:53] <sladen> > if people want to fix anything, let them
[09:54] <bmonty_laptop> what if debian version is broken?
[09:54] <sladen> > with the mergeing processs, we agreed that after IUVG we stop synching
[09:54] <sladen> > sync if there's no new debian upstream
[09:54] <sladen> > we'd still be honouring debian upstream
[09:54] <sladen> > colin had this concern that there's no problem to get anything you want in a new revision
[09:55] <sladen> > even with a 60kB patch or something
[09:55] <sladen> > the propostal was made tyesterday that we have a couple of people doing the merges the ahrd way by hand
[09:55] <sladen> > I don't see why, what's difference froma normal merge to somebody in the task force
[09:56] <sladen> > we saw it in the breezy relase cycle that some people wee disappearing
[09:56] <sladen> > I know I'm going to disappear from the end of ...
[09:56] <sladen> > ...when you know that you're not going to have time, tell i
[09:56] <sladen> s> so you want a list of people who claimi to be working on this
[09:56] <sladen> > ok
[09:56] <sladen> > I don't really like the idea
[09:56] <magnon> good job sladen :P
[09:56] <sladen> > because... if I want to help out osomewhere then I want to do it oluntarily, and not beuacse the team requires me to
[09:57] <sladen> > then are much more likey to be working on bugfixing whereas there asre other people on the channel doing packageing ... like stofgger olsen
[09:57] <magnon> *christoffer
[09:58] <sladen> > some people have to vring in the new people from revu---when did you do the last review ...during breezy, we have to clean that up as there's a huge list of stuff and it would help to get new people in and we should push them more attactive
[09:58] <sladen> > there are some KDE gys --- that there' s aproblme with KDE people
[09:59] <sladen> > but then apply the same process to all the packages
[09:59] <sladen> > but renviewing takes time... loits of time
[09:59] <sladen> > especially when people are packaging stuff with strange copytigh licesnse or even wird languea   I can read Frehcn!
[09:59] <sladen> > strange stuff, not French stuff
[09:59] <sladen> > do I read the agenada correctly?
[10:00] <dholbach> we have huge amount of crack here :)
[10:00] <KyralRetsam> lol
[10:00] <dholbach> and we're loosing track of what we say
[10:00] <sladen> > there are french people that don't speak a word of English. ... but Debian copyrigh has to be readable, as you can't expect Elmo to learn French to read licnese
[10:00] <sladen> > <elmo> a debian copyright in French whould get a single word response.. "Non!"
[10:01] <KyralRetsam> is he like putting down what people say in realtime? Or TRYING to?!
[10:01] <sladen> > what do we do if the Debian peoepl are slacking... there's enough, there' sa 15k packages that need merging
[10:01] <sladen> > ther problem is that when we first get this in, there won't be any updates
[10:01] <sladen> > you'll get an expection to UBG if you can show that the upload fixes a fix
[10:01] <sladen> s/UBG/UVF/
[10:01] <sladen> > we don't want to make too much work for outsleves, tis' a samll team
[10:02] <sladen> > if you're going to be doing things, you'll going to have to be reasonaible forthat unilt relase
[10:02] <sladen> for that until relase
[10:02] <sladen> > we have to reduce the number of Ubuntu specific packgaes and mainly because of trival changes and changes
[10:02] <sladen> > or get them upstream or Debian so that we're not maintianing them
[10:02] <sladen> > try and get a team that just work with Debian and try to push things?
[10:03] <sladen> > No!  Absotutely not!
[10:03] <sladen> > I was lazy in that reard myself, but ...
[10:03] <sladen> > the problem for breezy was that the tfor breezy we didn't have the teim, but now we have the time and should be able to push the pachates to Debian adna push it back in the futre or during the feature freeze
[10:03] <sladen> WHat's my oion on all this?
[10:08] <slomo> about getting ubuntu changes back to debian... wasn't there this utnubu project which wanted to get ubuntu changes back into debian? or did they silently die?
[10:08] <zakame> there is that at alioth
[10:08] <magnon> there is such a project, but it relies on the debian maintainers for a certain package to be alive
[10:09] <siretart> utnubu is focusin on getting NEW packages into debian from ubuntu, rather than to catch individual patches
[10:09] <slomo> if the debian maintainer isn't alive we have no way to get the changes in anyway... except when doing a NMU
[10:09] <KyralRetsam> If the Debian devs aren't alive then the Ubuntu person who made the patch become the dev
[10:09] <siretart> then we don't need to care anyway
[10:10] <bmonty_laptop> KyralRetsam: I think that would become unmanageable
[10:10] <crimsun> that still creates a merge delta
[10:10] <zakame> KyralRetsam: yep, but that would require the person being sponsored by a DD, unless (s)he's a DD...
[10:10] <magnon> KyralRetsam: right now that would be somewhat impossible with the amount of work we have to do before UVF
[10:10] <KyralRetsam> ah okay
[10:10] <magnon> and the fact that ubuntu doesn't have "maintainers" in that sense
[10:12] <bmonty_laptop> did they stop talking in Montreal, or did sladen get tired :)
[10:12] <sladen> > ...talk about mathcing Debian names with things like  -v2  and if Ubuntu universe has arleady stripped that name off
[10:12] <magnon> sladen got tired :p
[10:12] <sladen> bmonty_laptop: they asked me a question and I lost track :)
[10:12] <zakame> sladen: awww
[10:13] <bmonty_laptop> haha
[10:13] <sladen> > thigns like the disk bar applet that was new and before relase and broke and not okay to have it in before realse
[10:13] <sladen> what we really need is saudoi streaming rather than a trasbiption
[10:13] <slomo> yes... but it's too late now :(
[10:13] <sladen> > we have to get packages reviewed then UVF.  New packages which don't requrie new packages that don't require new dependcies, do we accpept them?
[10:14] <sladen> > I think we agree on a date, after UVF that we have as our own freeze date for new packages
[10:14] <sladen> > we need a few weeks to test for bugs for thigns that are going to be in universe, does 4 weeks
[10:15] <slomo> hm, about UVF for universe... i hope it will be some days after the UVF for main?
[10:15] <ajmitch> slomo: not likely
[10:16] <dholbach> we're just discussing the freeze for NEW packages
[10:16] <ajmitch> sladen suggests: freeze for NEW packages at preview release time
 I don't think anything should go into universe after the Preview rlease
[10:16] <dholbach> one suggestion was 4 weeks before release
[10:16] <dholbach> anything NEW
[10:16] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
[10:16] <slomo> ajmitch: that's bad imho... think of a new version of a package in universe which needs a new version of a package in main... this package in main gets updated in the last minute and the universe package can't be uploaded anymore without breaking UVF...
[10:16] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseProcess
[10:17] <slomo> dholbach: 4 weeks before release for NEW packages should be fine imho...
[10:17] <crimsun> I think we're going to have to be a lot more conservative
[10:17] <siretart> I'd say lets bind that to the release preview
[10:17] <sladen> > we have to decided separately between package uploads and reving the library
[10:17] <crimsun> 4 weeks is the absolute minimum
[10:17] <sladen> crimsun: agree
[10:18] <magnon> slomo: exceptions can be made
[10:18] <ajmitch> slomo: we're discussing that - we can't really approve anything new that breaks UVF
[10:18] <magnon> even in main
[10:18] <magnon> if there's a very very good reason for it
[10:18] <ajmitch> magnon: but for NEW in universe? I don't think there'll be much chance
[10:18] <magnon> new stuff after UVF? I don't want that
[10:18] <magnon> I don't see why it should be differenced
[10:19] <sladen> > we had stuff in universe which hasn't build for the last two versions
[10:19] <sladen> > ...there's focus between getting new stuff and fixing stuff that hasn't built
[10:20] <siretart> dholbach proposed to start a poll in launchpad about the deadline for NEW packages in universe
[10:20] <sladen> > we have 6 weeks to get new versions in after the no new software
[10:20] <sladen> > if we look at the relase scheuld, we have merging, ... UVF, and then we can't do aynthing anytmore so we need a phase where we insert those new packages
[10:21] <ajmitch> 6 weeks from now, until UVF
[10:21] <ajmitch> I think it's about 8 weeks, actually
[10:21] <ajmitch> but 8 weeks for NEW packages?
[10:21] <hub> wow
[10:21] <hub> that is short
[10:22] <siretart> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
[10:22] <crimsun> I don't see why NEW packages should get an exception from FeatureFreeze at the absolute best
[10:22] <ajmitch> we have to look at each package, until the deadline
[10:22] <ajmitch> crimsun: yep
[10:22] <ajmitch> crimsun: so that'd be 6 weeks post-UVF
[10:23] <slomo> crimsun: NEW packages don't break anything... and a buggy package is imho better than none
[10:23] <crimsun> slomo: I think none is better in that case, since it'll be much more difficult to push changes into -updates
[10:24] <crimsun> Dapper has a mandate essentially to be as polished as possible, and we have to trade off features for stability
[10:24] <tritium> yes
[10:24] <farruinn> crimsun: ditto, was just about to say that
[10:24] <sladen> > we're spending a lot of time talkign about this and the answer is actually ogin got be a case-by-case
[10:25] <ajmitch> although it will be case-bycase, we need a deadline
[10:26] <slomo> i would vote FF for NEW packages then...
[10:26] <LaserJock> What about at Feature Freeze
[10:26] <crimsun> as would I.
[10:26] <crimsun> 6 weeks post-UVF
[10:28] <sladen> > please let us know a policof MIA (Missing in action/ AWOL)
[10:29] <slomo> what?
[10:29] <magnon> if someone goes AWOL/MIA, -let the team know- etc.
[10:29] <LaserJock> isn't that in the Code of Conduct?
[10:30] <zakame> exit gracefully
[10:30] <magnon> yes
[10:30] <sladen> but it probably hasn't been happening
[10:30] <slomo> hm, would be a really short policy: tell someone when you're leaving forever/for some days ;)
[10:31] <sladen> > if people touch other packages and then go away and two months later the maintineaer comes back and says ''I alerady ha the patches'' ... why didn't you put them in bugzilla/upload
[10:32] <LaserJock> it might be nice to have a MOTUPolicies wiki that has all of this kind of stuff
[10:32] <zakame> hmmm, how about co-maintaining?
[10:32] <magnon> we don't have maintainers
[10:32] <slomo> sladen: who do you mean with maintainer?
[10:32] <crimsun> the entire MOTU team can touch any package
[10:33] <zakame> oh
[10:33] <magnon> but it's polite to let people do their thing, since you might end up with duplicate work
[10:33] <magnon> however, if you leave, then we need to know that you do
[10:33] <sladen> slomo: the person who last 'touched' that pacakge
[10:36] <magnon> we're talking about a mailing list to improve communication
[10:37] <zakame> yeah, iirc dholbach raised it up during the last CC meeting
[10:38] <sladen> > ... we dont' have a channel/mailing list for social channel for MOTUs
[10:39] <KyralRetsam> you mean #ubuntu-motu isnt social?
[10:39] <sladen> > ... suggesting a social mialing list for ''I'm jetting off to ...''
[10:39] <magnon> more about so you can say when you're away, talk about new software you want in, planning releases, etc.
[10:40] <magnon> non-technical development, so to say
[10:40] <sladen> > non-technical mailing list
[10:40] <zakame> motu-proprio
[10:40] <sladen> > time is nearly up
[10:40] <sladen> > pitti mentioned universe-security
[10:40] <hub> why not
[10:40] <sladen> > we badly need a proper team rather than hit and run members.
[10:40] <KyralRetsam> I've been getting a lot of questions on the Ubuntu-Users ML about this topic
[10:41] <sladen> > we need peoepl to go and read debian-security-annunce and check d"did we get that in in the latest sync"
[10:41] <sladen> > and preparing deb diffs
[10:41] <crimsun> I've started doing that post-Breezy
[10:41] <tritium> we need some team structure
[10:41] <crimsun> so if there's motion for a team, I'm all for it
[10:41] <KyralRetsam> security team?
[10:41] <zakame> agree
[10:41] <sladen> > is this a BOF or something?
[10:42] <ajmitch> crimsun: there's always been a motion for a team
[10:42] <magnon> haha
[10:42] <magnon> > you will all die a terrible death!
[10:42] <sladen> > we should refer brainstorming to another meeting
[10:42] <magnon> (-fabio)
[10:42] <sladen> > this was quite productive
[10:42] <sladen> > silcence!
[10:42] <\sh> sladen - the living typewriter
[10:42] <siretart> '
[10:42] <KyralRetsam> lol
[10:43] <sladen> > will someone make some kind of notes from this ... wehav ean IRC log;  we can write up a spec and on the wiki
[10:43] <sladen> > talk to scott about MOTU bugs
[10:43] <KyralRetsam> Next time you should hookup some kinda voice-recognition software for this thing :P
[10:43] <sladen> > a poll for new packages 
[10:43] <slomo> sladen: thanks for writing everything down :) you deserve a beer now ;)
[10:43] <sladen> KyralRetsam: yes!
[10:43] <KyralRetsam> who is scott again?
[10:43] <siretart> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge
[10:43] <hub> keybuk
[10:43] <sladen> > MOTU-mailing list
[10:43] <sladen> > ubuntu-motu
[10:44] <sladen> > here's a "quick" list of thigns that need to be merged, rather tha sched, it's a few hundre pages long and need to be looked at manually
[10:44] <sladen> > some upstream ,some new debian revision
[10:44] <sladen> > so we have thto write the minutes andfrom the meeting
[10:44] <sladen> > do we have a wiki page?
[10:44] <sladen> > stick them ont he MOTU homapge
[10:45] <sladen> > thien thank you for the meeting and wI think we will have some tlaks
[10:45] <sladen> > what ware we doing tonight?
[10:45] <sladen> > MOTU meeting minutes
[10:45] <ajmitch> drinking BOF!
[10:45] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeetingMinutes
[10:45] <sladen> > I love smoart, it haas a problem to "solve all your problems"
[10:45] <sladen> yeah!
[10:46] <ajmitch> ok, meeting done, we can all go & drink now
[10:46] <koke> ajmitch: now?
[10:46] <zakame> hihi
[10:46] <ajmitch> koke: ok, later
[10:46] <ajmitch> still more BOFs to go