/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/11/14/#edubuntu.txt

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bumparockyhello02:43
bumparockynewbiw question, why is not smbfs part of it?...windows connectivity a must here02:44
bumparockygreat job , though, very impressive...would like freenx technology also02:46
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mhzhi all04:11
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dabaRhi04:13
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zakamehi all07:02
zakameis ogra around?07:02
crimsunperhaps, but he may still be in Montreal or enroute home07:03
zakamehmmm ok :)07:03
Burgundaviazakame, I think he is travelling right now07:03
Burgundaviathe ltsp guys finished yesterday, if my memory serves me correctly07:04
zakameanyway, can i request edubuntu cds via shipit?07:04
zakameBurgundavia: oh07:04
highvoltageogra07:04
highvoltageOGRA07:04
highvoltagewake uuuuuupp!!!07:04
highvoltage:)07:04
cafuego_edubuntu is giving me too much grief!07:14
zakamehow come?07:15
cafuego_No matter what i do, I can't login via a netbooted client (I got them booting OK now)07:16
cafuego_Do I need to manually add users in the chroot?07:17
cafuego_I thought I could ltsp into gdm (xdmcp) back to the server.07:17
Yagisancafuego_: on the sever ltsp-update-sshkeys reboot client and try again07:23
=== cafuego_ grumpily deleted it, so will reinstall && try again ;-)
cafuego_Also means I can do it in vmware and not on the crusty P23307:30
cafuego_Oh, there is a buglet actually, /etc/exports here won't accept * as network/mask.07:32
=== cafuego_ should update that in the wiki
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cafuego_Hmm, locked. Do any of you have edit access to http://wiki.edubuntu.org/LTSPServerSetup ?07:34
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cafuego_Yagisan: ... and the people rejoiced. Thankyou :-)10:25
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mhzhi all12:51
mhzhighvoltage, ping12:51
cafuego_hello ghz (free upgrade)12:51
mhzhi cafuego_ 12:52
mhzyou left b4 I could get back with the files :)12:52
cafuego_my hosting provider's uplink died :-(12:52
mhzoops12:52
cafuego_Yeh <heh>12:52
cafuego_it's OK though, got it all working now.12:52
mhzcafuego_, are you keen on rescuing (rm -rf) data?12:52
cafuego_mhz; That's why i run rsync every night.12:53
cafuego_(coz rm -rf is sometimes not your friend)12:53
mhzme too, except I got confused with domains :(12:53
mhzand yesterday night i did a lot of work12:53
mhzwhich unless I rescue in next 5 minutes, I'd be lost for my talk12:54
cafuego_isn't the an undelete thingie for ext2?12:54
mhzhmm, me ignorant on that12:54
mhzhowever i do use ext312:55
cafuego_http://www.billjonas.com/papers/undeletion.html12:55
=== mhz reading
cafuego_try to mount the partitoon with the files read-only ASAP12:57
mhzcafuego_, glup! I'd betta start rescuing01:00
mhzthx for the cheering up01:00
highvoltagebah01:23
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highvoltageanyone seen JaneW around?01:59
highvoltageedoo: seen JaneW01:59
edooJaneW was last seen on #edubuntu 35 years, 321 days, 13 hours, 6 seconds ago, saying: np [Thu Jan  1 01:59:59 1970] 02:00
highvoltagehmmm...02:01
raphinklol02:02
highvoltagei think my small server at home's time is a bit out :)02:02
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pips1highvoltage: hi02:15
highvoltagehi pips1 02:15
highvoltagei'm just on my way to a quick meeting at work, talk to you later?02:15
pips1ok, I take it the next official meeting is 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu02:16
pips1?02:16
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mhzYagisan: hi there02:50
YagisanG'day mhz02:50
=== mhz will relogin
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jelknerhi all, anyone here know anything about the new virtual file system?03:08
jelkneri've done something *very* bad to my hard drive :-(03:08
Yagisanjelkner: no. What did you do ?03:09
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jelknerYagisan: here is what i did:03:19
jelkner1. i installed edubuntu on a new hard drive03:20
jelkner2. for file system configuration, i chose "auto configure with virtual file system"03:20
jelkner(or something like that)03:20
jelkner3. since everything worked, i wanted to get /home copied over from the old system03:21
jelkner4. so i put it on the other ide chain, and planed to mount it and copy, like i've done many times in the past03:21
jelkner5. but when i went to mount it, i couldn't find the partition (hdc2)03:22
jelkner6. when i put it back in the computer as the main drive, grub could no longer find a file system03:22
jelkneri've got an ubuntu live boot in there now03:23
Yagisanoh dear03:23
jelkneryeah!03:23
Yagisanwhen you did 2, was the old drive in the pc ?03:23
jelknerno03:24
YagisanI think it should have said LVM on install03:24
jelknerbut it did something to that drive when i booted up the new system with the old system present03:24
jelknerhold on, let me try fdisk -l and see what i get03:24
jelknerok, the new file system is called LVM03:25
YagisanAh, I understand a bit clearer now03:25
YagisanI also use lvm (actually lvm over raid)03:26
YagisanI'll take a quick look and see what it tried to do when you put a new drive in03:27
Yagisandid /var/log/syslog have any messages in there related to your hdc2 ?03:27
Yagisansudo lvdisplay will give you a list of your lvm partitions (it scans all installed disks IIRC)03:29
Yagisansudo lvscan is less verbose03:30
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Yagisanjelkner: do you have gpart on that cd ?03:32
jelkneri don't know, does the breezy live cd have it?03:33
Yagisanjelkner: I have no idea, I've never used the live cd, but if not03:33
jelkneri have the broken drive in the /dev/hda postion03:33
Yagisanyou can download from here http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/user/76201/gpart/03:33
jelknerand when i try mount -t ext3 /dev/hda2 it can't find it03:34
jelknerlet me look03:34
Yagisanrun gpart.linux  /dev/hda03:34
Yagisandoes it find your partition table ?03:35
jelkneri just ran gparted03:36
jelknerit is a gnome app03:36
jelknerand it is on the live cd03:36
Yagisanjelkner: gpart != gparted03:36
jelkneroh03:36
Yagisanjelkner: why are the names always so similar03:36
jelknergpart doesn't seem to be there03:37
Yagisananyway, did gparted show a correct partition table for /dev/hda ?03:37
jelknerno03:37
Yagisanoh dear03:37
jelknerhere is what it has:03:37
jelkner/dev/mapper/casper-snapshot03:38
jelknerand03:38
jelkner/dev/mapper/casper-cow03:39
jelknerthis whole /dev/mapper stuff is new to me03:39
Yagisanjelkner: that looks like the livecd partition table03:39
jelknerok, ubuntu live does not mount harddrive partitions without being told03:40
Yagisanjelkner: don't worry /dev/mapper is a more flexible partition table (when it works)03:40
Yagisanjelkner: doesn't seem that way03:40
jelkneri know that it doesn't03:40
jelknerso how can i make it mount what i think should be /dev/hda03:41
jelkners/hda2/hda03:41
magnons/hda/hda2/ :)03:41
jelknerthanks ;-)03:41
jelknerfdisk /dev/hda says hda can not be found03:42
jelkneris there an easy way to prob what is available?03:42
Yagisandmesg | grep hda03:42
jelknerhold on, let me try that...03:42
YagisanIf that produces nothing, double check the cables03:43
Yagisanon my system I get03:44
Yagisan[   26.852400]      ide0: BM-DMA at 0xb000-0xb007, BIOS settings: hda:DMA, hdb:pio03:44
Yagisanas the first line of output03:44
Yagisansecond line is03:45
Yagisan[   27.235047]  hda: ST3200822A, ATA DISK drive03:45
Yagisanthat is the important line03:45
jelkneryeah, i get something like that:03:45
jelkner[4294702.837000]   ide0: MB-DMA at ... BIOS settings: hda: pio, hdb, pio03:45
jelknernow, how can i look at hda to see what the file system table looks like?03:46
Yagisanjelkner: do you have anything that looks like the second line ? if not I suspect a loose cable03:46
jelknerdmesg | grep hda only returned one line03:47
Yagisanbefore we pull the case off, try  dmesg | grep hdc03:47
Yagisanit looks like a loose cable, but we will double check it is where we think it is03:48
jelknerYagisan: i don't think it is a loose cable03:50
jelkneri can get to grup03:50
jelkners/grup/grub03:50
jelknerand it can read the menu.lst file03:51
Yagisanjelkner: That line that dmesg returned indicates the hard drive  isn't on /dev/hda, but you get grub, so it must be on hdb, hdc or hdd03:51
jelknerbut it can't find a file system when you try to load the kernel03:51
jelknerhold on, let me reboot from the hard drive to get more details03:51
vmarksmorning all.03:54
neurogeekjelkner, did you solve the idle problem??03:55
neurogeekHello all03:55
neurogeekvmarks, Hi!03:55
jelknerneurogeek: yes, by reinstalling03:56
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jelknerYagisan: don't ask me why, but this time, the old system booted properly!03:56
jelkneryeah!03:56
jelknerI'm going to burn the home directories onto a cd03:57
jelknerand install them on the new system that way03:57
jelknerok, i've got what i need, thanks!03:57
Yagisanjelkner: It's a sign, backup now :)03:58
Yagisanjelkner: glad it's working for you03:59
YagisanG'day vmarks, neurogeek03:59
neurogeekYagisan, Hello!!04:01
neurogeekjelkner, good!!04:01
Yagisanneurogeek, how are you today, I've a had a scorching day today, and it's still 27 degrees celsius at 2am04:04
Yagisanso I can't sleep :(04:04
jsgotangcoits pretty humid here as well in manila atm04:06
neurogeekYagisan, bad to hear that.. in here is pretty hot these days too. Air Conditioning Systems rules04:09
=== Yagisan doesn't have an air conditioner :(
neurogeekYagisan, sorry to hear that.. What part of Australia are you in?04:11
Yagisanjsgotangco: manila, it would be around midnight there ?04:11
Yagisanneurogeek: Sydney04:11
neurogeekYagisan, Good.. i've always wanted to live there04:12
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jsgotangcoYagisan: its only past 11pm04:12
mhzre04:12
Yagisanneurogeek: ?? really, it's been interesting the last few days04:12
Yagisanmhz: wb04:12
jsgotangcobut i'll be sleeping soon I have to be early at work (i just started at a new place)04:13
mhzYagisan: how's things going?04:13
Yagisanjsgotangco: ok then04:13
mhzjsgotangco: Mr. RH admin04:13
jsgotangcomhz: it's pretty neat really04:13
Yagisanmhz: I have some interesting news for you, and I wanted to chat to you about biz04:13
mhzYagisan: did you get the urls for TC and Esfera sumup?04:13
mhzso you did04:14
mhz:)04:14
Yagisanmhz: yes, that is part of what I want to chat about04:14
mhzYagisan: what time will you log in ? how many more hours?04:14
jsgotangcobiz?04:14
mhzjsgotangco: you know :D04:14
Yagisanmhz: it's 27 degrees and 2am, I can't sleep04:15
mhzhehehehe04:15
=== jsgotangco likes some biz too
mhzi see04:15
Yagisanmhz: so I'm up for a while04:15
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mhzYagisan: but I am solving rm -rf ATM04:15
mhzand I gotta get ready for a edubuntu demo at a university04:16
Yagisanmhz: It's what 12:15 in Santiago now (you are in Santiago right ?)04:16
mhzyup04:16
mhzso, I'll be leaving anytime soon 04:16
mhztherefore, could it be either email or lets' meet in XYZ hours?04:16
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Yagisanmhz: ok, perhaps email is better. I need to take my wife to hospital for a checkup today04:18
Yagisanshe is due in 10 days04:18
mhzWOW!!!04:18
Yagisanand I won't be back until late afternoot my time04:18
Yagisans/afternoot/afternoon04:18
mhzthat is X PM?04:18
mhz(+ -)04:19
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=== mhz is also burning 16 edubuntu cd :(
Yagisanmhz, looking http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=10&month=11&year=2005&p1=240&p2=232&p3=-1&p4=-104:21
Yagisanis 10pm my time 8am your time good ?04:21
mhz22:30 could be betta :D04:22
mhzis it ok 4u?04:22
Yagisanmhz: I'm flexible between 10pm and 1am my time04:22
mhzhihihi04:23
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symbuloshi si juliux there?04:24
symbulosjuliux: are you online?04:24
symbulosops, away04:24
mhzYagisan: cool, then. 22:30 (8:30 my time, tomorrow)?04:25
Yagisanmhz: yes04:25
mhzcool04:25
mhzand if you want you can still pre-tell me via mail04:25
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Yagisanmhz: I just noted that in my diary, will be there, and If I have time, I'll send a prelim email04:26
mhzeducool\04:26
Yagisanmhz: see you tommorow04:26
mhzbye then and hope good news from hostpital :D04:26
Yagisanjsgotangco: you are a RH admin ?04:27
jsgotangcoat work yes, i'm taking the rhce exam next month04:28
Yagisanjsgotangco: you poor thing ;)04:28
Yagisanbrb04:28
jsgotangcoYagisan: it'll kill my contribution output for sure04:29
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Yagisanfalse alarm04:35
Yagisanjsgotangco: just standard sys-admin or network admin work ?04:37
highvoltageogra: hi there04:38
highvoltagehi Yagisan 04:38
highvoltageshould http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/StepByStepLtspSetup be on our documentation page?04:38
ograhey highvoltage 04:38
highvoltageit explains how to install ltsp.org on Ubuntu, I think it might be confusing to people.04:39
ograeeek !04:39
ograwipe it please04:39
jsgotangcoYagisan: a little of both, and a little more on game concepts04:39
highvoltagei'll remove it from the documentation page, i think hno73 is the only one who can delete pages.04:39
ograit will break heavily if you run ltspadmin on top of edubuntu04:39
bluefrog-10and the way it is it won't work straight on 5.10 either04:40
YagisanG'day highvoltage04:41
Yagisanjsgotangco: games ? lucky you04:41
jsgotangcoYagisan: it only looks cool to work on computer games, in reality it can be hell04:42
Yagisanjsgotangco: In my spare time I maintain a game for Ubuntu - I know it can be hell04:43
Yagisanjsgotangco: but you get paid for it04:43
Yagisanhighvoltage: yeah that page is definitely in the wrong spot04:44
highvoltagea question i'm going to ask here and on -doc as well...04:45
jsgotangcocan anyone please take time to review what's in the Cookbook, i'm afraid my schedule won't accomodate it anymore for dapper04:45
highvoltageit's the best option to use the ubuntu doc team for ubuntu and edubuntu, right?04:45
highvoltageor would it be better to have a subteam of the docteam for edubuntu-doc?04:46
jsgotangcohighvoltage: i dont think anyone in the docteam is interested in edubuntu at all 04:46
highvoltagejsgotangco: do you feel that a sub-group would be better, or should we encourage everyone who wants to work on edubuntu-doc to join the main docteam?04:48
=== jsgotangco feels a subgroup would be better
jsgotangcoi think educators are better like mhz04:49
highvoltageok, it might make things easier to manage. the subgroup will be part of the doc-team on launchpad, so people will indirectly be part of ubuntu-doc.04:50
highvoltageogra: do you know who https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-graywolfcomputers is?04:51
highvoltagehe started a team called LTSPUbuntu.04:51
highvoltagehas he been involved in the Ubuntu LTSP implementation / do you know who he is?04:51
ograhe is one of the ltsp.org guys, i see he is in #ltsp04:52
ograso this seems fine to me...04:52
ograi'll join his team... since i'll become upstream for ubuntu ltsp soon, matt will hand it over to me04:52
Yagisanogra: excellent, and I know just where to find you hahahahaha04:53
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ograheh04:53
highvoltageogra: cool.04:54
ografirst let me become familiar with bzr ... since we also switch from bazaar for this tree04:54
highvoltagei'll join ltsp too.04:54
ograyou are already member04:54
ograat least the team page ays so04:54
Yagisanogra: Lets start by getting rid of that foolish idea that thin clients don't need restricted modules04:54
highvoltagei meant #ltsp :)04:54
highvoltagesorry.04:54
ograah :)04:55
highvoltageogra: i'm happy that you're taking over the ltsp part, just because you're more accessable than mdz04:55
ograyes, that's the reason...04:56
Yagisanogra: I'm also interested in the team, but I freely admit I'm not much of a coder04:56
ograhe just has to much other stuff to do... he'll still review the patches though04:56
highvoltageogra: oh yes, you were away... I'm also now an Ubuntu member.04:56
ograhighvoltage, i read the report on -devel today, congrats04:56
highvoltagethanks :)04:58
Yagisanhighvoltage: congratulations (my digest must be delayed, I haven't seen it yet)04:58
highvoltagethanks, Yagisan 04:58
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highvoltageedoo: hola04:59
edoohi there, highvoltage!04:59
pituxjoin #Comos05:00
Yagisanogra: are you seriously removing restricted modules from the clients to save ram ?05:00
highvoltagewhy does the thin clients need restricted modules?05:01
Yagisanhighvoltage: I like having 3d acceleration on my clients, but restricted also has firmware05:02
Yagisanhighvoltage: which makes things work05:02
jsgotangcogood night05:02
Yagisanhighvoltage: on hoary, restricted modules where on disk, in breezy they are in tmpfs05:03
Yagisanjsgotangco: goodnight05:03
highvoltagejsgotangco: goodnight05:03
highvoltageah.05:03
Yagisanhighvoltage: so now restricted is needlessly using up ram05:03
Yagisanhighvoltage: and I have no idea why that was thought to be a good idea05:04
ograhighvoltage, see the thin client specs we worked out at ubz (not fifshed yet) they talk about things like restricted modules05:04
=== Yagisan was reading the specs a short while ago
ograYagisan, for normal systems thats fine ...05:04
highvoltageah, ok. well, reducing the number of restricted modules in thin clients will certainly help?05:05
ograbut on thin clients its pretty useles to have them installed by default05:05
Yagisanyes, but thin clients aren't normal, there thin05:05
highvoltagei mean, ipw2200 firmware is probably never needed in thin clients.05:05
ograwe'll wipe them completely05:05
ograwho thinks he needs a nvidia or ati binary driver can still install them later05:06
=== Yagisan looks like he'll be building his own kernel packages for his thin clients then
ograisdn will never be used on a thin client and as long as we dont support wlan we wont need the other modules05:07
Yagisanogra: isn't there a proposal for wireless ltsp05:07
Yagisan?05:07
ogranope05:07
ograthere are several whishes....05:07
ograbut you'll need at least 16MB for a working bootimage ... (the initramfs is huge)05:08
ograso bootfloppies wont work for example05:08
Yagisanogra: and that is why $DEITY created rom-o-matic05:09
ograthere is no wlan support for rom-o-matic images afaik05:09
ogranot even pcmcia 05:09
ogras/for/from/05:10
highvoltagei think it will be safe to increase the thin client minimum spec to 64MB soon. 05:11
highvoltagepeople really shouldn't implement pc's that so old that they have less than that at this stage.05:12
ogranopr05:12
ograe05:12
ograwe just agreed on 32MB05:12
highvoltagei think it's a good target05:13
ograso the default setup must run on 32MB ... which will cost u a lot... but all the ltsp people seemed to agree with jelkners approach05:13
ograi'd just have set the spec to 64MB.... since we'll never be able to support 32MN *and* local devices05:14
Yagisanwell, non-ubuntu ltsp boots and runs in 32MB05:14
ograbut that doesnt use hal and udev for automagic hotplugging for example05:14
ograif these two have to run on the client we'll nee more than 32MB05:15
ograoh, and dbus indeed05:15
highvoltagei think you'll have memory challenges with xdmcp as well if you want to do local deviced effeciently. there's just no way around it, afaict.05:15
Yagisanmemory compression anyone ?05:16
ograwe will never suport xdmcp in a default install05:16
ograYagisan, what solition are there ? i havent seen anything in this area yet05:16
=== Yagisan remembered when such products were sold for a competing system
Yagisanogra: I remember seeing a compressed cacheing solution awhile ago05:17
ograhmm...05:18
ogramight be quite CPU intensive i imagine05:18
=== Yagisan remembers hp had something like that for linux
highvoltagei vaguely remember something like that too,05:19
highvoltagebut i think it booted from local memory, and then got the user environment remotely.05:19
highvoltageso i don't think it needed as much memory as ltsp.05:19
Yagisanwhitepaper here http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Sumit_Roy/publications/ipdps01.pdf05:19
ograeeek05:21
ograthats using swap05:21
ograwont work in a thin client solution... if you swap you have lost05:22
ograswap should only be used as fallback so the client doesnt crash if it runs out of mem05:22
highvoltagei like the concept of compressed memory.05:23
ograbut if you swap during normal usage the systwm becomes unusable05:23
highvoltageassuming you're swapping over the network.05:23
highvoltagewhat if it swaps to compressed ram?05:23
highvoltagesurely that should be faster?05:23
Yagisanthis looks similar http://www.research.ibm.com/servertechnologies/MXT.html but may be hardware05:24
highvoltagealthough, on 32MB there's probably not much you can do.05:24
highvoltageif you run out, you run out or swap externaly.05:24
ograthis implementation uses the swap device for compressing... so you have read/write operations on the networked swap device ...05:25
highvoltageah i see.05:25
=== Yagisan is looking for another implementation
ograwhich is slow as hell no matter how hard you compress05:25
highvoltageyes :/05:25
ograand compressing the main memory wont work without heav intrusive kernel changes05:26
ograwhich is nothing we can do in dapper ...05:26
ogradapper is due o be the most conservative ubuntu release ever05:26
Yagisanclosest I can find atm is http://www.kerneltraffic.org/kernel-traffic/kt20030428_214.html#1105:27
Yagisanso linking the clients to ulibc is out of the question ?05:28
ograwhats ulibc ? 05:28
ograwe use klibc05:28
Yagisana typo. should ub uclibc05:29
Yagisanhttp://www.uclibc.org/05:29
highvoltageogra: will dapper be more conservative to focus on quality and testing?05:29
Yagisanjust import debian's i386-uclibc port, and rebrand it as the thin client debootstrap script05:30
ograhighvoltage, yes, we have to support this release for 5 years...05:30
Yagisaninstant shrink of all apps that use libc05:30
highvoltageoooh, I see.05:30
ograthat means a month less development time, earlier freezes and more time for bugfixes05:30
ograYagisan, i doubt thats feasable for dapper05:31
ograbut i'll have a look05:31
Yagisanah, but it is interesting isn't it.05:31
ograyup05:31
=== Yagisan wishes he had been able to attend the bof
ograthey were fun05:32
ograexcept the local device stuff that was very hard to get specced... (we had a guy there who was very pedantic, was not real fun to have discussions there)05:33
=== Yagisan might not be able to code well, but I like to squeeze every last ounce of space and performance from his boxes
YagisanIs he in the ltsp-3110.ogg ? I watched that today05:33
ograhe ?05:35
ograoh, nope, thats scotty05:35
ograhe is fine and fun to work with...05:35
ograas all the ltsp guys05:35
jelknerYagisan: or highvoltage: can i ask another question?05:35
Yagisanok. I missed the ltsp guys in Sydney, so I have no idea who is who05:36
Yagisanjelkner: yep, but I'll be in bed soon05:36
jelkneri need a bit of help getting idle to work05:36
jelknerapparently, it binds to a tcp port05:36
jelknerso the first person who launches it can run it, but everyone after that fails05:37
Yagisanjelkner: I'm sorry, I have no idea what idle is. And from your description, it doesn't do what it's name suggests05:38
jelknerogra: should i file an edubuntu bug on this?05:38
highvoltagejelkner: i know what idle is, but i don't know how to get around that.05:38
jelknerYagisan: idle is the default python IDE05:38
Yagisanjelkner: I didn't know that, I thought with a name like that it would be used for spinning down disks (sounds like a powersaving app)05:39
highvoltagehehe05:40
ograjelkner, ??05:40
jelknerYagisan: like much in the Python world, it is a joke on Eric Idle05:40
ograjelkner, idle is *a* python ide...05:40
ograits not installed by default05:40
ograjelkner, file a bugzilla bug for it05:41
jelknerogra: but it is an edubuntu issue05:41
jelknernot an ubuntu one05:41
jelkneri think?05:42
jelknerthe problem is idle wants to bind to a tcp port05:42
jelknerso the first one to connect to it can, but everyone else can't05:42
Yagisanjelkner: ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu are the same base system, the difference is what is on the cd, and what is installed by default05:43
ograjelkner, idle bugs are not edubuntu related 05:43
jelknerogra: i need to get some kind of usable, stable, python development environment going soon05:43
jelknerogra: what can i do?05:43
jelknerall the wxpython tools have the mouse bug05:44
ograjelkner, file a bug in bugzilla against idle05:44
jelknerso drpython and spe are not good choices05:44
jelknerand now idle doesn't work either05:44
=== jelkner is filing a bugzilla bug
Yagisanwhat is wrong with using $EDITOR to write python code ?05:45
jelknerYagisan: like gedit, perhaps?05:46
YagisanI wasn't allowed to use an ide for programming at uni to prove I actually could write code05:46
jelknerwell, it is too slow to change, run, change, run05:46
Yagisanyes, eg gedit05:46
jelknerYagisan: my goal is not to be "hard core", but rather inclusive05:47
jelkneri'm not trying to seperate the men from the boys, but to include everyone05:47
jelkneri want things to be easy for them05:47
highvoltagejelkner: i think your approach is right05:47
Yagisanjelkner: just a thought if you don't find an ide you like in time for when you need it05:47
jelknerso as many students as possible can be exposed to programming05:47
ograjelkner, how about goby ?05:47
ogra*gobby05:48
highvoltagejelkner: running python from a terminal is also quite friendly enough for teaching.05:48
jelknerogra: what idle gives you is scripting and the shell integrated05:48
Yagisanjelkner: I wish my uni teachers wanted to be inclusive, but that's off topic05:49
jelknerso you can be working on a script, press <f5> and your code is loaded into the shell's namespace05:49
Yagisananyway it's almost 4am, so I need to go to bed05:49
jelknerYagisan: thanks for your help!05:49
jelknergoodnight05:49
YagisanNight all, and I'll most likely see you tomorrow05:49
jelknerhighvoltage: yes, but it makes scripting more ackward05:50
jelkneranyway, i want idle to work05:51
highvoltagejelkner: i'm interested, what do you use to teach?05:51
highvoltagedo you have python curriculum?05:51
jelknerhighvoltage: i'm working on the second edition of "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python"05:52
jelknerand I'm using that05:52
jelknerbut mostly as a resource05:52
jelkneri try to make the class as project based as possible05:53
jelknerless talking, more doing05:53
highvoltagenice.05:53
highvoltagei made a guide in 200305:53
jelknercool, can i see it?05:53
highvoltagelet me re-phrase, I started with a guide in 2003, but had many distractions since then.05:53
highvoltagesure, i'm uploading it now.05:53
highvoltagejelkner: here it is: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/JonathanCarter/Python05:55
highvoltageit's rougher than it should be to be at all useful, but it might give you a few ideas.05:55
jelknerhighvoltage: give me a few moments to report this bug, then i'll get back to you..05:55
highvoltagewhen i did that, i did it with grade 5+ in mind.05:55
highvoltageok.05:55
=== \sh_away is now known as \sh
highvoltageedoo: logs for wiki.edubuntu06:01
edoo#edubuntu Tue, 8 Nov, 17:26: <Yagisan> Burgundavia: No, check history on http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientsWithoutPxe06:01
edoo#edubuntu Tue, 8 Nov, 21:59: <bluefrog-10> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation/BootingClientsWithoutPxe06:01
edoo#edubuntu Tue, 8 Nov, 23:53: <\sh> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunity06:01
edoo#edubuntu Wed, 9 Nov, 08:33: <cafuego_> Hmm, locked. Do any of you have edit access to http://wiki.edubuntu.org/LTSPServerSetup ?06:01
edoo#edubuntu Wed, 9 Nov, 18:55: <highvoltage> jelkner: here it is: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/JonathanCarter/Python06:01
jelknerogra: i had submitted the bug (#18714) on 31-10-2005, but it still said, "unconfirmed"06:11
ograso find someone who uses idle to confirm it ...06:12
ograadditionally these are two totally unrelated bugs06:13
juliuxre06:14
ograone is a bug in tkinter (the first one) and the other is actually idle related it seems06:14
ograand the tkinter bug seems to be a missing dependency in ubuntu ...06:14
ograneither of them is edubuntu related06:14
ograjelkner, try to install xrgb and see if the first one goes away06:15
jelknerogra: starting with idle -n would do the trick06:17
jelkneri don't understand why idle wants to connect to a port, but the problem is that each instance wants to connect to the same port06:18
jelknerogra: my concern, of course, is getting edubuntu to the point where teaching high school cs works "out of the box"06:19
jelknerit doesn't now06:19
jelknerogra: what is xrgb supposed to do?06:20
ograinstalling rgb.txt which contains the rgb color mappings06:20
jelkneris there a problem with the color mappings?06:20
jelkneri never reported that06:20
ograthats why xorg-common depends on it, it didnt do that during the development version06:21
ograits the core of your bugreport06:21
jelknerthat was my old bug report06:21
jelknerwhich was the problem i had with the prerelease install of edubuntu06:21
ograwhich number is your new one under then ?06:21
jelknerhmm... i think i did the wrong thing06:22
jelkneri didn't file a new one, since it was still a "idle won't start" problem06:22
jelknerbut i guess a new one is called for, yes?06:22
ograyes, you added a bugreport with edubuntu in its neam which has noting to do with edubuntu is the first problem06:23
ograthe second was to just add a followup to this bug for a unrelated other bug06:23
ograyes06:23
jelknerogra: i'm sorry for the mess ups, oliver, but i'm just a simple man, and i make simple mistakes06:24
ograthats why you should be more descriptive in the subject line ... "idle doesnt start" is not a good short description06:24
jelknerok, but i didn't know what to put06:24
jelkneri hope launchpad makes this easier06:24
jelkneri'm new to bug reporting, as i'm sure many other people will be06:24
ogra"idle fails becuse it cant find the color black" would directly have become a duplicate of an xrgb bug06:25
jelknerahh06:25
ogralaunchpad doesnt make the subject clearer, thats up to you06:25
ogratry to be as descriptive as you can in the subject...06:25
jelknerbut a good system will have integrated help, that teaches new users to use the system06:25
ograso a new bugreport should be: "idle can't bind TCP/IP port 8833"06:26
jelknerwhat to do now06:26
ograthats short but describes the core of the problem...06:26
jelkner?06:26
jelkneri can file the new report06:26
jelknerand remove the comment from the old one06:26
ografile a new bug with the above description06:26
ogradoes the color problem still occur for you in the final release ? 06:27
jelknerno06:27
jelknerso this is an example of the upgrade process not doing something right06:27
ograso i'll close this one then... and you can just file a new one for the new prob :)06:28
ogranope06:28
jelknerok06:28
jelknernope?06:28
ograthats normal in a development cycle...06:28
jelknerahh06:28
ograthe problem was fixed in the final release....06:28
jelknerhow will upgrading to dapper work?06:29
ograits just that noone saw the relation of your bug to xrgb, so it was never closed when xrgb was fixed06:29
ograthe same06:29
jelknerahh06:29
jelknerthe same?06:29
ograyou change the repositorys and upgrade your system ;)06:29
jelknerlol i know that!06:29
ograas it worked from wart to hoary and from hoary to breezy...06:29
ogra*warty06:30
jelknerwhat i'm asking is this:  i have several edubuntu breezy sites set up06:30
jelkneri will want them using dapper as soon as possible06:30
jelknerbut from the sound of it, i should wait until the official release06:30
ograyou shouldnt do that in a production environment 06:30
jelknershouldn't do what?06:31
jelknerrun the prerelease, or upgrade?06:31
ograupgrade to unstable releases06:31
ograthings can break all the time, thats development06:31
jelknerbut upgrading to the final release will work, yes?06:31
ograsure06:31
jelkneri understand06:31
jelkneryou mentioned something about having to chroot06:32
ograit will also work to the development release, but you might find strange bugs that make working impossible06:32
jelknerok, i have things working now06:32
ograso dont do it in production systems :)06:32
ograyou can either chroot or rebuild the chroot environment....06:33
jelknerthe only problem is, ogra, in the environment in which i'm working, all the systems are production systems06:33
ograi would recommend the latter since we'll make some heavy changes to the chroot06:33
ograthats why i said that :)06:33
ograset up a testing system to play around ;)06:34
jelkneri have a removable hard drive that i can use to swap in a testing system06:34
ograbut dont play with the patience of your users if they have strange development related bugs all the time, they will be upset06:34
jelkneri understand06:35
jelknerbut i try to find the adventurouse students to help in the testing06:35
jelkneri warn them that things will break06:35
jelknerbut if i don't let them bang on the system, i can't really test it06:35
ogratrue... 06:35
jelkneranyway, i mentioned the small environment with only four brave students using the system06:36
ograbut for example if i change things on ltsp you will always have to rebuild the chroot...06:36
jelkneris there a how to on that?06:37
ograand things in the chroot might be broken heavily... it will see very intrusive changes (you were there in the BOFs :) )06:37
jelkneryeah, i won't touch it for about 8 weeks, yes?06:37
ograi'll write one as soon as we have the first changes06:37
jelknerat that point dapper will be ready to begin testing, yes?06:37
jelknersince all new features will be in06:38
ograthen there might still be bugs... bugs consist the whole release cycle06:38
jelknerbut aren't we testing to try to find bugs?06:38
ograall feature means also more beakage06:38
ograin 8 weeks the fixing begins06:38
jelknerso the testing begins, yes?06:38
ograaround prerelease the testing should be 50/50 06:39
ograbefore things might be broken heavily06:39
jelkneri'll let you be my guide on when i should begin testing...06:39
ograyup06:39
ograi'll make a call on the mailing list and provide a wikipage with instructions06:40
jelknerok, bug #19429 is filed06:42
ogragreat06:42
jelknerone other thing to ask about06:42
jelknerwe have a bug (and this time, i think it really is an edubuntu bug ;-) over at hb-woodlawn06:42
jelknerwhenever a user tries to logout, the session freezes06:43
=== jeang [n=jeang@c6-dbn-139.absamail.co.za] has joined #edubuntu
ograthat rather sounds like a ltsp bug06:43
ograwhich in turn is a ubuntu feature ...06:43
jelknerwhen i say edubuntu, i mean ubuntu ltsp06:44
jelknershould i stop doing that?06:44
ograedubuntu bugs are bugs related to the educational software we provide, edubuntu metapackages or bugs in the installer changes i made06:44
ograso everything thats not in ubuntu but edubuntu 06:45
jelknerso moo-cow bugs are not part of that06:45
ograyup06:45
ograthey are plain ubuntu ltsp bugs06:45
=== [cyb3rM4N] [n=cyb3rM4N@200.237.66.12] has joined #edubuntu
jelknerthanks, that clears things up06:45
ograthe distinct use of a package in edubuntu makes a bug an edubuntu bug06:45
ogras/distinct/exclusive06:46
jelknerhow can you install moo-cow without edubuntu?06:46
ograthere is a thin client howto anywhere on the wiki...06:46
ograbut beware, many users added strange comments so the instructionsa might be wrong or broken06:47
jelkneryes, and there are docs which refer to installing the old ltsp06:47
ogranope06:47
ogranot these06:47
jelknerhold on...06:47
ograthey will get deleted as soon as we can, they created a lot of confusion06:47
jelknergood06:48
ogralike the packaging bug you discovered in ltsp-server ;)06:48
jelkneris that fixed?06:49
ogranope06:49
ograi will fix it in my first upload... but i have some other tasks to do before i can work on ltsp06:49
ograespecially converting the archive from bazaar to baz and convince my contributors for ltsp to do the same06:50
ograbefore i cant do any packaging06:50
jelkneri understand, my only concern is that i'll be working with the folks at citi to setup those five labs soon06:51
jelknerand in one of those labs, we have clients with 32 megs of RAM06:52
ograit doesnt harm anything, its just a wrong dependency06:52
ograah, k06:52
jelknerso i'm thinking classic ltsp is the way to go there06:52
ograthen just install the classic ltsp06:52
ograso just install ltsp-utils and you have everything you need06:52
jelknergot it06:53
ografor the rest i have to refer you to the lrsp docs, i never instralled classic ltsp06:53
ogras/lrsp/ltsp06:53
jelkneras long as there are going to be 2 versions, it would be helpful to clear up the naming conventions06:54
jelknerdo you like calling the old one "classic ltsp"?06:54
jelknerand what should moo-cow be called that clearly distinguishes it?06:54
ograit wont matter anymore... ltsp-utils will be demoted to universe in dapper anyway06:55
jelknerit still will matter06:55
highvoltagei'm surprised that it's in breezy's main.06:55
ogramoo-cow will not go into ubuntu... its feastures will be included in ubuntu ltsp, thats why we worked on the specs together06:56
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jelknerif we find there are circumstances where it is still needed (like low end clients), then i will still want to document it on the wiki06:56
jelknerand i don't want to cause confusion06:56
ograyou were there when we made the specs...06:57
jelkneryes?06:57
ograno need for classic ltsp anymore ...06:57
ograubuntu ltsp will support 32MB06:57
jelknerin dapper, you mean06:57
ograyes06:58
jelknerthere still is now06:58
ogranow, use the ltsp docs06:58
jelknerfair enough06:58
ograthey apply for the classic ltsp06:58
ograand to get all the tools you need for classic, just install ltsp-utils :)06:59
jelknerlet me make one more comment and i'll let you be ;-)06:59
jelkneri've noticed that breezy does not install on lots of older machines07:00
jelknersomething to do with the cdrom drives07:00
ograthere i can only refer you to Kamion07:01
jelkneri keep wondering if it is possible to be all things to all computers in one distro07:01
ograi'm not deep into installer stuff07:01
ajmitch_hi07:01
ograhey ajmitch_ 07:01
ograhome already ?07:01
highvoltagejelkner: what kind of old machines?07:01
ajmitch_how are you?07:01
ajmitch_no, in the US07:01
ogratired07:01
jelkneri'm not looking for a solution to this (i just use debian stable), but trying to make a general point07:01
ogra*very* 07:01
highvoltagesome old bioses just can't boot newer cd's.07:01
ajmitch_:)07:02
ograjelkner, yes, but i cant help here at al07:02
ajmitch_ogra: you need to take a holiday "_07:02
ajmitch_.ca, perhaps07:02
ograajmitch_, only 8 weeks :)07:02
jelknerogra: i understand, i'm not asking you to07:02
ograi'll take my holiday after feature freeze ;)07:02
ajmitch_heh07:02
jelknerbut this will be an issue for ubuntu ltsp, even in dapper07:02
jelkneri'm saying i'm not sure it will be so easy to get it to work with older machines07:03
jelknersince that is not an ubuntu focus07:03
jelknerbut is necessary in edubuntu07:03
ograyou wont have old machins as servers, they wont be able to fulfill the basic requirementsd07:03
jelknerok, i'll drop this for now until i get a concrete case07:03
jelkneri'm just thinking we will find times when older clients don't work07:03
ograyou dont need the installer on old machines07:04
ograand CD roms will be supported by the installed kernel/udev...07:04
jelknerand if that kernel doesn't work with the older clients?07:05
ograthe problem with the installer are certain driverse some old CD roms need07:05
ogras/driverse/drivers07:05
ograwhich are not included in the installer,m but in the installed kernel07:05
jelkneri need to leave for my next class, but i'm eager to begin testing dapper with old clients as soon as you think it is ready07:06
jelkneri've got plenty of old clients around, and it is a very important use case07:06
ograwill still take some weeks to have the first stuff to test for you :)07:06
jelkneryes, i know07:06
jelknerso let me be quite now and let you take care of more important things! ;-)07:07
jelkneri'll talk to you later...07:07
jelkner(and i'll file that ltsp bug today)07:08
jelkneron bugzilla07:08
jelknercya07:08
ograhmm, i really doubt http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19429 is a bug, he should do as the message says and read the help ...07:10
highvoltagei haven't seen the error message he sees.07:17
ograme neither ...07:19
highvoltageah, there it is on his ticket "Run07:46
highvoltageah, there it is on his ticket "IDLE with the -n command line switch07:46
highvoltageto start without a subprocess and refer07:46
highvoltageto Help/IDLE Help 'Running without a07:46
highvoltagesubprocess' for further details."07:46
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Snderfoxhi07:54
Snderfoxanyone here familiar with SchoolTool ?07:55
[cyb3rM4N] hi07:55
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highvoltageSnderfox: i've played with it before, but if you need very specific help, you might need to try #schooltool08:05
Snderfoxk08:06
Snderfoxhighvoltage: I can't find the default user and pass08:06
highvoltagei think the username is "manager" and the password is "schooltool"08:09
Snderfoxk, I'll try08:10
Snderfoxtnx08:10
Snderfox:)08:10
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highvoltageedoo: schooltool.password is <reply> Schooltools default username is "manager", and the password is "schooltool"08:12
edoohighvoltage: okay08:12
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[cyb3rM4N] zzzZZZZzzz...08:18
highvoltage[cyb3rM4N] : sleepy?08:19
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[cyb3rM4N] yes, i am from brazil...08:20
juliuxhi ogra 09:03
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francoisbBonjour, j'avais demand conseil pour un problme de clavier QWERTY sur les clients LTSP09:17
francoisbJ'ai test l'adresse propose : http://wiki.edubuntu.org/LTSPClientKeymap09:18
francoisbCela fonctionne trs bien, merci beaucoup.09:18
francoisbAutre question : Existe-t-il un programme qui permette d'diter une image iso de Edubuntu pour ajouter un "language-pack"?09:22
bluefrog-10je pense que tu pourrais copier l'iso sur le disque dur, puis inserer ton pack (sans oublier les dependances) et ensuite refaire l'iso09:26
francoisbOui, mais le gestionnaire d'archive est en lecture seule09:27
bluefrog-10tu crees un dir la ou tu as de la place09:28
bluefrog-10mkdir /home/test09:28
bluefrog-10mkdir /mnt/iso09:28
bluefrog-10mount -o loop file.iso /mnt/iso09:29
bluefrog-10cd /mnt/iso09:29
ograhttp://wiki.edubuntu.org/InstallCDCustomizationHowTo09:29
ogra;)09:29
bluefrog-10tar c . | tar x -C /home/test09:29
bluefrog-10cool09:29
francoisbWonderful!09:29
ograyou need to do a bit more, like modifying the included archive data to make a added package known etc09:30
ograsee "Modify pool structure to include/delete packages" to add a language package09:30
francoisbOk, I have a look immediately.09:32
cafuego_Guys, there's a small issue on the wiki as well. The default /etc/exports needs to have the '*' changed into an actual network/netmask.10:08
francoisbI give up for today. I'm not good enough in Linux AND English reading to do that.10:09
ogracafuego_, why ?10:10
ograand where on the wiki is that ?10:10
cafuego_ogra: The postsetup should perhaps mention it.10:10
ograwhy ?10:11
cafuego_ogra: My servers (all three attempts) disallow mounts when * is used instead of a netwrork/mask entry.10:11
ograit works fine with the wildcard... 10:11
ograyour edubuntu ? 10:11
cafuego_ogra: No, it doesn't here.10:11
cafuego_ogra: Yeah, default 5.10 install.10:11
ogracafuego_, thats been tested many times, file a bug against ltsp-server if it doenst work on a unmodified edubuntu 10:12
cafuego_it's a fucntion of portmap/nfsd though, isn't it?10:13
cafuego_Use launchpad to file a bug?10:13
ograbut it gets set by ltsp-server 10:13
ogranope, bugzilla10:13
ogranad it surely works for many users out there, i'm quite surprised10:13
ogras/nad/and10:14
cafuego_This is going to sound odd, but I just changed it back and _now_ it's happy with it :-/10:15
ograwhat was the error you got ?10:16
cafuego_Initially I got "mount: 10.10.42.250:/opt/ltsp/i386 failed, reason given by server: Permission denied" on all the clients.10:17
cafuego_And on the server the usual "mount request from unknown host 10.10.42.80 for /opt/ltsp/i386 (/opt/ltsp/i386)"10:18
ograhmm, strange...10:18
cafuego_I concur <heh>10:18
cafuego_Those errors are what got me to change exoports to begin with; I check hosts.{allow,deny} but they were both empty and shouldn't make a difference in that case.10:19
ograyup10:19
ograi guess the restart after editing the file fixed it...10:20
cafuego_Quite possibly, oh well. i'll leave it, see what happens on (a) next install.. then file a bug if it recurs again.10:20
ogracould you try rebooting the server with the default setting and see if it occurs again ? 10:21
cafuego_Yeh, vmware, so easy :-)10:21
ograah, vmware...10:21
ogramight be an interface issue ...10:22
cafuego_For what it's worth, the P233 did it too10:22
ograok10:22
cafuego_I just switched to vmware coz that's an Athlon with far too much ram, so it runs somewhat faster.10:22
ograthen i revert that theory10:22
cafuego_rebooting...10:23
juliuxogra, take a look at http://www.juliux.de/linux/ubuntubanner1.jpg10:25
cafuego_Would you know offhand if it's particularly hard to make the server authenticate against a novell directory server? (I'm checking this out for a guy at a school here)10:26
ograerm... the colors are somewhat erm, pinkish...10:26
juliuxogra, is from my mobiletelefoncamera10:26
ogracafuego_, i havent played with nds yet10:26
ograjuliux, so assuming the colors are right it looks fine :)10:27
cafuego_Cool... I'll make sure to document what I do then when I get around to it :-)10:27
ogracafuego_, cool, thanks :)10:27
=== cafuego_ hits reset on the client
juliuxogra, http://www.mpathy.de/files/messe-ubuntu/ubuntu_BANNER_okay.pdf there you can see the right colors10:28
ograwoah... 10:28
ograheavy orange :)10:28
juliuxogra, but everybody on a fair will see that there ist the *ubuntu both10:29
cafuego_yes, why do germans like to use dutch royal orange? ;-)10:29
juliuxcafuego_, it is a ubuntu orange10:29
=== cafuego_ won't be tricked
ogracafuego_, because it looks cool ;)10:29
juliuxcafuego_, it looks very very cool10:30
ograwe have no royals here, so we have to steal from our neighbors ;)10:30
juliuxogra, the banner is 0.8m x 2.5m10:30
cafuego_Oh come on, Angela has all the making of a queen, surely ;-)10:31
juliuxcafuego_, lol10:31
ograyes, thts what my laptop just discovered too when i switched to 100% size and the CPU freaked out ;)10:31
ogra*shudder*10:31
cafuego_ogra: nfs is happy on reboot, oh well.10:31
ograhmm10:32
ograweird10:32
ogradid you reboot it before or was this right after install ?10:32
cafuego_Right after install it had the problem; I didn't reboot it at that point, just edited the exports file and restarted the nfs server.10:33
ograstrange ...10:33
ograit sounds like a portmap issue ... 10:34
juliuxthis is windows like10:34
cafuego_.. and without KDE, very special.10:34
ograheh10:34
cafuego_ogra: Well, I'll see how I go and chalk it up to gremlins if it doesn't reoccur.10:34
ograyes, but if you had it on two independent installs its somewhat worrying, i'll keep an eye on it10:35
cafuego_I'll set up another server on vmware, see how that fares.10:36
ogrado you use one or two NICs ?10:36
cafuego_just the one10:37
ograhmm...10:37
cafuego_Ok, that's booting off the ISO... should be done in about an hour.10:38
ograthanks10:38
cafuego_Oh the only thing that comes to mind is that i use a different box as dhcp server; it refers clients to edubuntu via the next-server directive.10:41
ograhmm10:43
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cafuego_ogra: Nope, it's ahppy now. oh well :-)11:44
ograok, gremlins or cosmic rays 11:49
ogra:-)11:49
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