[12:04] <jamesh> I wonder if the newer versions of sqlobject are less bad?
[12:04] <spiv> jamesh: Well they are certainly less bad.
[12:05] <spiv> It's a question of whether they're less bad in a way that's specifically useful to Kinnison :)
[12:06] <Kinnison> It's hard not to use ram when you have 400,000 live objects
[12:06] <Kinnison> at least
[12:06] <jamesh> that's a lot of objects
[12:06] <Kinnison> welcome to the joys of the archive] '
[12:06] <Kinnison> s'..$//
[12:06] <Kinnison> s@'@/@
[12:06] <jamesh> they're all needed for each transaction?
[12:09] <Kinnison> No, they're all needed in the final transaction (death row) which it invokes last
[12:09] <Kinnison> magic eh :-)
[12:15] <jordi> ls
[12:29] <womble> So is there sensible documentation on what Launchpad products are, what they do, and how they relate to individual packages?
[12:36] <bradb_> womble: Unfortunately not (yet).
[12:37] <womble> bradb_: So should I just play with it and see what happens, and probably make a mess, or ask somebody to give me some idea here?
[12:38] <bradb_> womble: Well, as developers, we should assume that most people won't even bother to ask (afterall, they shouldn't have to.) Play with it. If you make a mess, we'll learn from it.
[12:38] <sivang> womble: if you make a mess, make sure to open a bug report about it :)
[12:39] <womble> bradb_, sivang: OK then.  I'll come back in a couple of minutes when there's a puddle... <grin>
[12:39] <bradb_> :)
[12:45] <womble> Uhm, why can't I specify an Arch archive as upstream for my product?
[12:54] <ddaa> womble: because nobody had bothered to implement import from arch to arch.
[12:54] <ddaa> because arch is such a small fraction of the upstreams...
[12:55] <womble> ddaa: I would have thought that would have been a fairly trivial task -- it's just making a branch, after all...
[12:55] <ddaa> sometime in the next months, you'll be able to specify an existing bzr branch though, because we're making this whole import proposition much more sane
[12:55] <ddaa> but I think arch->bzr import in launchpad will likely stay within the cracks
[12:56] <ddaa> womble: sure it would have been.
[12:56] <ddaa> it's just that we were all kind of busy on other things, like importing hundred of cvs mainlines nobody really care about.
[12:56] <womble> Is the launchpad code freely available yet for other people to hack on?
[12:56] <ddaa> nope
[12:57] <womble> So I can't even scratch my own itch?
[12:57] <ddaa> well... if it itches hard enough, you can probably ask to sign a NDA and try to fix it...
[12:58] <ddaa> but anyway, this whole import and branch thing is undergoing a major transition at the moment and for the next month or so.
[12:58] <ddaa> Then we will be all in bzr.
[12:59] <ddaa> and then it will be easy for you to associate an existing branch to a series.
[12:59] <ddaa> at least, a bzr branch.
[12:59] <ddaa> womble: does that make sense?
[12:59] <womble> NDA?  I'm sorry, wasn't there some mention of "freedom" surrounding all this?  Why not just call it "shared source" and be done with it?
[01:00] <jamesh> womble: the Launchpad code has not been distributed yet.
[01:00] <ddaa> launchpad code is evil and closed at the moment, sorry
[01:00] <womble> jamesh: I kinda picked that up already.
[01:01] <womble> ddaa: Not evil.  I never said that.  It just saddens me that a core component of a great distro which actively promotes Free Software isn't.
[01:01] <ddaa> will be released as free-as-in-speech when the social network around it is strong enough that for people to run their own would not be a fragmentation problem.
[01:01] <womble> I'm getting BitKeeper flashbacks, just without Larry's temper-tantrums...
[01:02] <ddaa> The business model surrounding launchpad is about being a social hub. It would be harmful to release half-done code and have it cause community fragmentation.
[01:02] <ddaa> and it would decrease its usefulness to the libre software devels using it.
[01:03] <ddaa> so... it's an annoying compromise, but I think it's valid and necessary.
[01:03] <ddaa> womble: is that making sense to you?
[01:03] <jamesh> womble: for certain features, Launchpad would be less useful if there were multiple instances
[01:04] <womble> ddaa: It makes sense, from a cynical-worldview perspective.  It's sad (though probably necessary) that people treat each other that way, though.
[01:05] <womble> "Be the change you wish to see in the world" is a nice, albeit naive, philosophy.
[01:05] <ddaa> I do not see that as cynical. When you release something as libre software you explicitly give people the permission to run away with it.
[01:06] <womble> ddaa: Right, and you also think well enough of them that you trust them not to do stupid things (like unnecessarily fork it)
[01:06] <womble> It's a trust thing. 
[01:06] <jamesh> womble: Mark has said on multiple occasions that the source code will be released
[01:06] <womble> jamesh: And?
[01:07] <jamesh> I've got no reason to doubt him.
[01:07] <womble> jamesh: Neither do I.
[01:08] <ddaa> womble: Giving people explicit permission to do something and expecting them not to do it seems like a weird concept to me.
[01:09] <womble> ddaa: Not expecting.  Trusting that they will (at least) consider the consequences of their actions before they act.
[01:09] <ddaa> In most projects, what holds the branches toghether are economic incentives. Sometimes the priorities of different people diverge, and whether the previous gatekeeper likes it or not, a fork happens. That's what freedom is about.
[01:11] <ddaa> Expecting people to be well behaved, in your own definition, is much less a robust proposition than expecting them to do what gives them their best bang for buck.
[01:11] <ddaa> Especially because their definition of "well behaved" may be different than yours.
[01:11] <womble> ddaa: Right -- enlightened self-interest.  I don't see why this same effect won't hold the launchpad user and developer community together.
[01:12] <ddaa> I can imagine a few reasons.
[01:12] <ddaa> Some people actively hate Canonical and will do their best to harm it if they can.
[01:13] <womble> ddaa: Some people (some of the same people) actively hate Debian, too.
[01:13] <ddaa> What is your point about Debian?
[01:14] <womble> ddaa: You're saying that some people hate Canonical, and if Launchpad were Libre they would use it against Canonical.  I'm saying that people hate Debian, too, and I haven't seen any use of the Debian BTS against Debian lately.  Do you honestly think that asuffield setting up antilaunchpad.net is going to kill Canonical?
[01:16] <womble> Launchpad's value is in it's data, not it's code, to my way of thinking (that may be due to a misunderstanding about what Launchpad is supposed to be, though).
[01:16] <ddaa> Right, my point was not very valid. Here's another one:
[01:16] <ddaa> Imagine we release the code in the current status. We know that many many things need to be improved, and we will fix them. But we will do it the long way around because their a very broad underlying vision.
[01:17] <ddaa> It would be viable for people to set up their own service using the code and focus on best short term improvements, without caring about the bigger picture.
[01:18] <womble> ddaa: This is sounding like a shallow baz 1.x allegory
[01:18] <ddaa> hu?
[01:18] <womble> ddaa: You're sounding *very* much like Tom Lord a few weeks ago
[01:18] <ddaa> Haaa.
[01:18] <ddaa> Sure.
[01:19] <ddaa> Except Tom released his code as a GNU project and expected people to fit his definition of "well behaved" and comply with his vision.
[01:20] <ddaa> Which does not seem to have worked very well.
[01:20] <womble> ddaa: Right.  So you're saying that what Tom says Canonical did with Arch is why you're not releasing Launchpad.  Doesn't that kind of validate Tom's accusations?
[01:20] <ddaa> I do not see how you connect that with "what Tom says Canonical did with Arch".
[01:21] <ddaa> Bazaar is GPLed code.
[01:22] <ddaa> womble: actually, Tom stopped releasing any code at all for a while, and repeatedly.
[01:22] <ddaa> Which was being a very big problem even for internal developers.
[01:23] <womble> ddaa: Tom says that Canonical took his code, wrung it for short-term gain, and screwed him over.  (Which the licence permitted, but he still thinks was rather unfair).  Now you're saying that *if* Launchpad was released, that someone would do that to Launchpad.  I think that Tom's lack of releases was the reason for Arch forking, not Evil Canonical, but unless you're all planning on having a hissy fit and walking away for a couple of
[01:23] <womble>  months, I'm not sure how some Evil Entity would pull a "Tom's Arch History" on Launchpad even if it was GPL'd.
[01:25] <ddaa> I'm not saying that "if Lanuchpad was release, then people would start other instances and harm the project"
[01:26] <ddaa> I'm saying that's a possibility, and a risk Canonical's investor does not want to take.
[01:26] <womble> "It would be viable for people to set up their own service using the code and focus on best short term improvements, without caring about the bigger picture."
[01:26] <ddaa> Right, that's saying "it would viable", not "people would"
[01:27] <ddaa> But I think you have valid point, on the essence of the issue.
[01:27] <womble> Right.  So it's down to a risk analysis, it's Mark's money therefore it's his call.  I'm fine with that, as far as it goes.
[01:27] <ddaa> I'm personally determined to push for the cvs conversion code to be released in a few months.
[01:27] <womble> But it's then disingenuous to be talking "all about the freedom" when there *are* other issues that have to be considered, which don't get much airplay out there in the wider world.
[01:28] <ddaa> Ubuntu is all about the freedom.
[01:29] <womble> ddaa: And yet, the software which Ubuntu is all centred around isn't Free.  Can you see my cognative dissonance?
[01:29] <ddaa> Absolutely.
[01:30] <ddaa> Cannot say much more that we all trust that this only a temporary situation.
[01:30] <\sh> womble: well..most of the OSS software is centered around non free software..it's named sourceforge...
[01:30] <ddaa> \sh: and I absolutely despise this situation.
[01:30] <womble> ddaa: You're the first person to admit in public that it's weird, that I've seen.
[01:30] <womble> \sh: And it shits me to tears.
[01:30] <jamesh> lots of people find the SF situation weird
[01:31] <\sh> well
[01:31] <\sh> it's a tool
[01:31] <jamesh> e.g. the gforge developers ...
[01:31] <\sh> I have to buy a screwdriver which is also not free
[01:31] <ddaa> jamesh: you mean savannah, gnat or some other fork thereof?
[01:31] <jamesh> yeah.
[01:31] <ddaa> womble: the gforge situation is a good illustration of how things can go wrong.
[01:32] <womble> \sh: You're free to make your own screwdriver.  But any analogy between software and physical items goes awry pretty quickly, due to the different fundamental nature of the beast.
[01:32] <womble> ddaa: So's bugzilla.
[01:32] <ddaa> womble: bugzilla is project centric
[01:32] <ddaa> it's not a social software, it's a project management tool
[01:32] <jamesh> womble: the rosetta is one of the areas where multiple instances reduce the value
[01:33] <\sh> womble: if I make my own free screwdriver...I think I'll violate someones patent or whatever 
[01:33] <ddaa> launchpad aims at being a social software.
[01:33] <womble> jamesh: Beyond "it's a translation tool", I don't really know what rosetta does, so I can't really comment deeply.
[01:33] <jamesh> womble: multiple instances would result in duplication of work, and reduce the opportunity to present translations made by others
[01:34] <womble> \sh: And that's different to software how, exactly?
[01:34] <mdke_> imagine if everyone had a launchpad... it would defeat the purpose
[01:34] <\sh> womble: using a screwdriver doesn't violate someones patents
[01:34] <\sh> womble: so I can pay for it, or get it as present...and can use it for free.
[01:34] <ddaa> guys, don't dogpile on womble
[01:34] <womble> jamesh: Surely whoever's running the rosetta should be feeding the translations to the project whose software they're translating?
[01:35] <womble> \sh: You could.  US Patent 666666666: "Method for affixing a toilet roll holder to a wall"
[01:35] <ddaa> womble: rosetta is about sharing translations across projects
[01:35] <womble> ddaa: Common translations for common strings between Mozilla and Konqueror, or common packages between Ubuntu and RedHat?
[01:36] <\sh> womble: yeah..waiting for it...
[01:36] <jamesh> womble: see https://launchpad.net/legal <- share translations between products
[01:36] <womble> mdke_: Imagine if everyone had an Internet.  It would defeat the purpose.
[01:36] <ddaa> womble: both
[01:37] <womble> jamesh: That page doesn't really explain the "share translations between products", though
[01:37] <jamesh> womble: yes it does.
[01:37] <jamesh> "In addition, the translator grants to Canonical Ltd the right to publish the translation and use the translation in other software packages under their license."
[01:37] <ddaa> when the SuSe guys will be using launchpad to build their distro, Canonical will be very happy to see them reuse Ubuntu's work, as Ubuntu will be able to do the same.
[01:37] <mdke_> womble, internet and launchpad have different purposes, so that analogy can't work
[01:37] <ddaa> that will just make two better distros
[01:38] <womble> ddaa: I always figured that translations would naturally end up living with the strings they were translations of
[01:38] <womble> jamesh: That sentence is incomprehensible to me, sorry.  I think I need more context.
[01:38] <ddaa> womble: many strings are shared accross applications and have standard translations.
[01:38] <\sh> ddaa: so..if suse wants to use ubuntus work...why not..they'll tell the world: What We Were Producing Was Crap, Now We Are Using Better Crack
[01:39] <jamesh> womble: it is in the context of the page I pointed you at.  There are two short paragraphs about Rosetta
[01:39] <\sh> but everybody is free to use launchpad or not...
[01:39] <womble> mdke_: Both are, as I understand it, both tools for bringing people together, "Social Software" if you will.
[01:39] <ddaa> Sure, and they'll sell it as Novell Linux brand or whatever with a big fat support contract and we will all be happy.
[01:39] <jamesh> womble: it means that if you use rosetta to translate the string "File" in nautilus, Canonical can release that translation for Firefox under Firefox's license
[01:40] <mdke> womble, although I don't agree with that analysis, in any event launchpad won't bring people together if everyone has their own version.
[01:40] <womble> jamesh: So rosetta is designed to be just a giant "pool of translated strings", then?
[01:40] <mdke> that's right
[01:41] <jamesh> womble: that's one way to think of it
[01:41] <mdke> with some subtleties
[01:41] <jamesh> it is a little more structured than that
[01:41] <womble> mdke: Just like the Internet won't bring people together if everyone has their own version.
[01:41] <ddaa> mdke: womble points it would be unlikely to happen even if launchpad code were released..
[01:41] <mdke> ddaa, why not?
[01:41] <womble> jamesh: Certainly more structured, but it seems like that's the general idea.
[01:43] <womble> mdke: Because it is hoped that people will be intelligent enough to note that it's better to share their communications and benefit than to wall themselves off and get nothing.
[01:43] <mdke> they don't get nothing, they get something they can use and control
[01:43] <ddaa> mdke: because canonical puts enough work in it to make it acceptable for users to wait and suffer until the cathedral is finished.
[01:43] <mdke> they just get less than they would if they shared
[01:44] <ddaa> dumping a bit of IRL talk with spiv here:
[01:44] <womble> Or they give up control for the greater good.  All you have to do is ensure that their self-interest aligns with the common good.
[01:44] <ddaa> "In some ways, it would be worse to release the code under a non-free (shared source) license than not releasing it at all"
[01:44] <mdke> i don't think it is aligned
[01:45] <spiv> That's perhaps just me being cynical about what upsets people :)
[01:45] <ddaa> I do see how it would produce more PR damage.
[01:45] <jordi> ddaa: agreedf
[01:45] <jordi> -f
[01:46] <ddaa> it's harder to gang up people around a non-event
[01:46] <mdke> so who saw the sounder post about Apply trademarking "rosetta"?
[01:46] <womble> mdke: The value of Launchpad is it's data.  Your own walled launchpad will not have that data.  Therefore your launchpad has very little value.
[01:47] <mdke> womble, i think its value in a "walled" situation is already proven by its success for Ubuntu
[01:47] <ddaa> womble: the point is that the people running their instance may not care about that.
[01:47] <mdke> sure it has more value in an unwalled situation
[01:47] <mdke> but people would not sacrifice control for that extra value, IMHO
[01:47] <mdke> Apply/Apple
[01:47] <ddaa> some people would
[01:48] <mdke> anyway, they can do that without the code being released
[01:48] <womble> mdke: If they won't sacrifice that control, then Launchpad *really* should never be openly released.
[01:48] <womble> The better solution might be to ensure that different Launchpad instances can share data between them using openly publicised formats.
[01:49] <womble> You get control, *and* general value.  Win-win!
[01:49] <mdke> heh
[01:49] <mdke> that is not very different from a single instance, with control between the products
[01:49] <ddaa> womble: this as been specced about.
[01:50] <jamesh> womble: before the internet reached critical mass, there were a lot of private networks
[01:50] <womble> mdke: It's totally different.  The "control" you talk about is fictitious.
[01:51] <jamesh> womble: once Launchpad does, then the code will likely be released
[01:51] <mdke> womble, no, it exists already in Launchpad. Take rosetta, the translations are not just automatically shared, you have control about whether to use translations from another part of the pool
[01:51] <womble> jamesh: Indeed there were.  And then people saw that they could get better value by sharing, and we have the Internet.
[01:51] <jamesh> (note that I am just speculating about this though)
[01:51] <mdke> so the Rosetta trademark? is that going to be a problem?
[01:53] <womble> Anyway people, this has been entertaining and enlightening, but I should rack up some billable hours for the day.  Thanks for the chat.
[01:53] <mdke> bye womble 
[02:00] <ddaa> spiv: do you know what shortlist is?
[02:01] <spiv> ddaa: Yeah; it's like list, but warns if the list is longer than some threshold.
[02:02] <spiv> It's for dealing with result sets from the database that you assume won't be big, so you aren't concerned by the performance.  If that assumption ever breaks, we'll find out :)
[02:03] <ddaa> SteveA: need to talk to you about your suggested use of shortlist
[02:15] <sistpoty> I've got a quick question to malone's email interface: can i see somehow if it did accept a mail from me?
[02:17] <\sh> sistpoty: it sends an email back to you
[02:17] <\sh> sistpoty: if not...check your mail.log
[02:18] <sistpoty> hm... the maillog said the mail was sent. but it doesn't seem to be accepted though
[02:18] <sistpoty> (got no mail back)
[02:19] <\sh> sistpoty: did u send the mail with the email addr in your lp account?
[02:20] <sistpoty> erm... no. i used sistpoty@ubuntu.com
[02:20] <\sh> hmmm...
[02:20] <\sh> put this email address in your lp account..try then
[02:21] <sistpoty> will do... thx
[02:27] <sistpoty> ' \sh: it worked :) thx
[02:28] <\sh> sistpoty: hehe...and I don't really know the magic behind launchpad :)
[02:28] <sistpoty> hehe
[02:29] <\sh> .oO(too much of zope in there..nothing for an old php dev)
[09:27] <sivang> Morning all , althugh you are in Montreal time
[10:56] <siretart> morning folks
[10:59] <sivang> morning siretart 
[11:08] <siretart> hey sivang 
[11:14] <highvoltage> hi. my @ubuntu.com e-mail address forwards to the account i registered with, how do i change the destination e-mail address?
[11:16] <Nafallo> highvoltage: change the preferred e-mailaddress on launchpad :-)
[11:16] <Nafallo> highvoltage: ...and wait for the cron-script to run ;-)
[11:19] <highvoltage> ah, ok. i think i just need to wait for the cron-script to run :)
[11:20] <highvoltage> is that when karma usually goes up?
[11:28] <marco> sorry, Could you help me to test a web site?    I'm from China. This site interdiction except china. http://chelseasoccerschoolhk.china.com/   Thanks a lot.
[11:48] <matsubara> good morning
[12:24] <sivang> morning matsubara !
[12:24] <gneuman> mornig all
[02:10] <Nafallo> kiko_12: ping
[02:12] <Nafallo> kiko_12: could you add "editbugs" on my bugzilla account when you're back? thanks :-)
[03:00] <kiko_12> Nafallo, what's your account name
[03:00] <Nafallo> kiko: nafallo@magicalforest.se
[03:02] <sivang> hey kiko , how's montreal?
[03:07] <kiko> sivang, it's as cold as you left it
[03:07] <sivang> kiko: hehe
[03:13] <Nafallo> kiko: found me? :-)
[03:15] <kiko> getting there
[03:15] <Nafallo> :-)
[04:34] <highvoltage> hi. https://launchpad.net/specs shows the top10 specs. where can I find/search all the specs?
[04:46] <spiv> highvoltage: https://launchpad.net/sprints/ubz for the UBZ specs.
[04:47] <highvoltage> spiv: thank you
[04:47] <spiv> Alternatively, https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+specs for the specs about launchpad across all meetings (which currently means just UBZ...)
[05:23] <salgado> kiko, ping
[05:30] <jordi> this is terrible
[05:32] <kiko> salgado, pong
[05:34] <salgado> kiko, can you have a look at https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/ProperSignUpWorkflow ?
[05:41] <highvoltage> which keyserver should i use to upload a gpg key for launchpad?
[05:42] <jamesh> highvoltage: anything on subkeys.pgp.net should do
[05:42] <jamesh> highvoltage: wait a while after uploading though, so that the key propagates
[05:43] <fabbione> highvoltage: you can also use keyserver.ubuntu.com :)
[05:43] <highvoltage> i tried keyserver.ubuntu.com, and gpg said it's a read-only server.
[05:44] <fabbione> it can't be
[05:44] <highvoltage> to be exact:
[05:44] <highvoltage> gpgkeys: this keyserver type only supports key retrieval
[05:44] <fabbione> meh
[05:44] <highvoltage> it could be that i'm just being a bit dumb, this is the right command, right?
[05:44] <highvoltage> gpg --keyserver http://keyserver.ubuntu.com --send-key 9CCAE9F1
[05:44] <fabbione> nope
[05:44] <fabbione> you are using the wrong command
[05:45] <fabbione> remove http://
[05:45] <highvoltage> fabbione: thank you, that worked.
[05:45] <fabbione> np
[05:46] <jamesh> new import of open b.u.c bugs at https://staging.ubuntu.com/malone/bugtrackers/ubuntu-bugzilla
[05:49] <kiko> rock on jamesh 
[05:53] <spiv> https://staging.ubuntu.com/malone/bugtrackers/ubuntu-bugzilla/+index?display-all-watches=1 times out ;)
[06:12] <highvoltage> can the launchpad groups work as a substitute for mailman?
[06:13] <highvoltage> for instance, can i send a mail to edubuntu-doc@somewhere and it will go to all the members in the edubuntu doc team?
[06:13] <fabbione> highvoltage: i think that depends what's the contact point for team foo
[06:13] <highvoltage> it's set blank at the moment.
[06:16] <salgado> highvoltage, no, it's not possible to do that. 
[06:16] <salgado> notifications sent by launchpad itself to that team will go to that team's contact address (if there's one) or to each of the team's members
[06:19] <highvoltage> ok. that makes sense.
[06:23] <jamesh> spiv: https://launchpad.net/products/malone/+bug/4120 <- an idea to make it easier to find out what Launchpad bug(s) corresponds to a remote bug
[06:23] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4120: Provide a way to find all Launchpad bugs watching a particular remote bug Fix req. for: malone (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: New http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4120
[06:27] <carlos> SteveA, please, ping me back when you have some time to talk. I'm having a permissions problem with Zope
[09:13] <highvoltage> if i translate something in hoary, will those translations make it into breezy?
[09:54] <siretart> salgado: around?
[09:55] <mdke> highvoltage, they will appear as suggestions iirc, but you can translate dapper now...
[09:55] <salgado> siretart, yep
[09:55] <highvoltage> cool.
[09:56] <siretart> salgado: dholbach sent me to you for discussing something I plan to make with malone
[09:57] <siretart> salgado: we (better I) want to create several small team in lp to assign bugs to
[09:57] <siretart> salgado: for grouping of bugs/workload
[09:57] <siretart> salgado: this may result in some 'dead groups' with very few members and no activity. do you see any problems with this?
[09:58] <siretart> hm. why does lp give me a nice errormessage "Sorry, Launchpad took too long to process your request." when I try to assign a bug to such a team?
[09:59] <salgado> siretart, I don't think these teams can cause any problems, no
[10:00] <salgado> siretart, about the error message, it might be because launchpad is going down (might be gone already) for an update
[10:00] <siretart> okay
[10:00] <siretart> salgado: what happens with the assigned bugs of a team when I delete that team?
[10:01] <siretart> I'd like to be able to specify a team or person which these bugs should be assigned to
[10:01] <salgado> siretart, right now you can't delete a team
[10:02] <siretart> oh. interesting
[10:02] <siretart> is it possible to 'mass reassign' bugs?
[10:02] <salgado> and you'd need to re-assign all bugs manually, because there's no way to do so for all bugs assigned to someone/some team
[10:03] <salgado> but I guess this is probably good to have at some point
[10:03] <salgado> siretart, could you file a bug on that?
[10:03] <siretart> salgado: for what exactly?
[10:03] <salgado> the mass reassignment
[10:03] <siretart> salgado: mass reassigning or deletion of teams?
[10:03] <siretart> okay
[10:04] <kiko> heya siretart 
[10:04] <salgado> the deletion can only come after we have the mass reassignment of everything, unfortunately
[10:04] <siretart> salgado: what happens if I use the email interface and CC: all affected bugnos?
[10:04] <siretart> huhu kiko! :)
[10:04] <kiko> how goes it
[10:04] <siretart> fine. I'm recovering slowly from my jetlag
[10:04] <siretart> and am exploiting the lp email interface for fun and creation of many new bugs ;)
[10:05] <siretart> how's the 2nd week of ubz?
[10:06] <salgado> siretart, that may or may not work, because you need to specify the target (affects /products/launchpad, for instance) when assigning a bugtask. and that target may not be the same for all the tasks you're trying to assign
[10:06] <salgado> you'd need some extra care, AFAICT. but maybe that wouldn't work at all. 
[10:06] <salgado> I'm not sure
[10:08] <siretart> so leaving out the affects statement and just supply as assignee command would not work?
[10:08] <siretart> we really need that functionality to get an overview about our workload
[10:08] <siretart> we as in ubuntu motus
[10:10] <stub> carlos: What table are translations stored in again?
[10:10] <salgado> siretart, we always assign bugtasks (and not bugs) to people. this means you need to specify which bugtask of a given bug you want to assign
[10:10] <stub> Found it
[10:10] <carlos> stub, POTranslation
[10:10] <carlos> ok
[10:11] <siretart> salgado: I dont get the difference between a bugtask and a bug. could you please explain that to me?
[10:11] <kiko> siretart, a task is a work item open for a bug -- a work item in a certain package, distribution or upstream.
[10:12] <salgado> what kiko said
[10:12] <siretart> I see
[10:12] <salgado> siretart, the problem comes when we have multiple tasks for the same bug
[10:12] <salgado> in that case you'd need to specify which task you want to assign
[10:12] <siretart> so a bug can be assigned to several source package, for example. or a sourcepackage and a distro and a product, right?
[10:14] <salgado> I'm not sure assigned is the right word, but yes, you can say that a bug exists in any (or all) of these
[10:14] <siretart> okay. lets say I have several bugs to the distribution 'dapper' assigned to the team 'ubuntu-dev'. Now I want a set of that bugs reassigned to a new team, called 'motumergers'.
[10:14] <siretart> wouldn't a line 'affects /distros/ubuntu' be sufficient to specify the bugtasks?
[10:16] <BjornT> siretart: yes it would
[10:16] <salgado> BjornT, should it be /distros/ubuntu/dapper or just /distros/ubuntu?
[10:18] <BjornT> salgado: yeah, it depends on what siretart meant with "the distribution 'dapper'". currently most of our bugs are on a distribution, not on a specific distribution release
[10:18] <salgado> right
[10:18] <siretart> BjornT is right, all the bugs I need are assigned to 'ubuntu'. 
[10:21] <spiv> siretart: that must be because malone is perfect ;)
[10:21] <siretart> spiv: ;)
[10:21] <Nafallo> hehe
[10:22] <siretart> serious. I don't find a link or way to file a bug on malone
[10:23] <siretart> can someone give a little help?
[10:23] <spiv> siretart: 
[10:24] <Nafallo> https://launchpad.net/products/malone/+filebug
[10:25] <spiv> Sure... from the malone front page, enter malone into "Jump to bugs in product:", then click "Report a bug".  Which takes you to the URL Nafallo gives.
[10:26] <spiv> (you can also do it by searching for malone from the launchpad front page and using the "Bugs" facet of the product page)
[10:27] <siretart> argl
[10:27] <siretart> spiv: thanks, I didn't see that 'Report a bug link'. Now I got it. thank you all!
[10:29] <spiv> siretart: Can you think of a better spot for it, so that you would have seen it?
[10:29] <siretart> salgado: I filed a bug https://launchpad.net/products/malone/+bug/4153
[10:29] <spiv> Or maybe bradb_ already has a plan for this...
[10:29] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4153: Reassignment of bugs Fix req. for: malone (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: New http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4153
[10:29] <siretart> ah. there it goes :)
[10:30] <sivang> spiv: Hey Andrew, do you know if Martin Pool is still there?
[10:30] <spiv> sivang: I think he's around somewhere... he's not in this particular room, though.
[10:30] <siretart> can we have this bot to report bugs for motus in #ubuntu-motu?
[10:30] <bradb_> Hm, maybe I should do some user testing on reporting bugs on Malone itself
[10:30] <spiv> siretart: It doesn't report, it just watches for bug mentions on the channel.
[10:31] <spiv> siretart: So when you mentioned bug 4153, it spat out the summary.
[10:31] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4153: Reassignment of bugs Fix req. for: malone (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Nobody, Status: New http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4153
[10:31] <spiv> See ;)
[10:31] <siretart> ah. I see :)
[10:31] <Nafallo> siretart: \sh already talked to Seveas about that I think :-).
[10:31] <salgado> siretart, thanks dude
[10:32] <Nafallo> better ask one of them :-)
[10:32] <siretart> salgado: with pleasure :)
[10:32] <Nafallo> morning lamont :-)
[10:32] <Seveas> siretart, hmm, last time I asked in there no one wanted him ;)
[10:32] <Seveas> (bit after two requests: i'll put the bot in there and see what happens)
[10:32] <Nafallo> Seveas: yay! :-)
[10:33] <lamont> morning Nafallo 
[10:33] <siretart> Seveas: I thought it would be notified about newly created bugs. but reporting about existing bugs is nice, too
[10:42] <jordi> kiko: get prepared for a good run
[10:43] <kiko> what did I do
[10:43] <kiko> to deserve this
[10:44] <jordi> running under the snow man
[10:44] <jordi> the best we can get today
[10:44] <kiko> wtf
[10:44] <kiko> is it snowing jordi?
[10:44] <jordi> it will be soonish
[10:44] <jordi> according to all weather websties
[10:44] <kiko> rock and roll
[10:44] <jordi> it was snowith briefly during lunch they say
[10:45] <jordi> snowing anyway
[10:45] <jordi> damn I can't type anymore and it's not even 5PM
[10:46] <sistpoty> hi... i just heard in -devel, that filing bugs in malone will send mail to DDs
[10:46] <sistpoty> can this be overriden somehow, because we are using malone currently to track the merges
[10:47] <jordi> kiko http://www.weather.com/activities/travel/businesstraveler/weather/fcst-hrly.html?locid=CAXX0301&from=36hr_topnav_business
[10:47] <siretart> this is critical to us, because we dont want to spam the DD's for our merging stuff in ubuntu!
[10:48] <Nafallo> s/DDs/Maintainers/ which in Ubuntu packages most often are DDs
[10:53] <\sh> for it's completly wrong, when I file a bug against /distros/ubuntu/<srcpackagename> that the debian maintainer will get a bug mail as well, because the people file bugs against the distro and not against the debian package...which is ubuntu upstream 
[10:53] <\sh> well..s/for/for me/
[10:53] <siretart> we really need a confirmation for this behavior
[10:54] <kiko> sistpoty, siretart: this is no longer true, and it only happened for a few cases because it was a freak database table left filled out
[10:55] <kiko> we fixed this earlier today
[10:55] <kiko> so apologies to whoever was affected
[10:55] <siretart> Keybuk: did you read that?
[10:55] <sistpoty> thx kiko... that really helps us :)
[10:55] <\sh> kiko: *hug* 
[10:55] <kiko> sistpoty, we're going to fix this properly in the very near future, thanks to bradb_'s new plan for bug people
[10:55] <kiko> read all about it
[10:56] <siretart> kiko: thanks man!
[10:56] <siretart> kiko: where can I read about bradb's new plan?
[10:56] <kiko> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/BugPeople
[10:56] <sistpoty> kiko: once I have the time, I will do... thx very much!
[10:56] <kiko> and the two links linked from there
[10:58] <Nafallo> lol
[10:58] <Nafallo> I like that specname ;-)
[11:16] <carlos> kiko, DistroTeamOneOnOne updated
[11:17] <kiko> thanks carlos 
[11:17] <carlos> kiko, I will improve the text later, but at least you have there all the input we got
[11:17] <kiko> that's fine
[11:27] <salgado> spiv, https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/2606 <= this might be related to that problem we found the other day
[11:27] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #2606: I encountered a difference between flush_database_updates() and transaction.commit() that surprised me Fix req. for: launchpad (upstream), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: Steve Alexander, Status: New http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/2606
[11:31] <salgado> stub, what revision you used for the rollout?
[11:44] <spiv> salgado: Hmm, yeah that appears to be the same issue.
[11:56] <lamont> how do I make a branch never accept commits again?  just lock it, or what?
[11:56] <lamont> ddaa, lifeless  ^^^
[12:02] <Kinnison> lamont: baz commit --seal
[12:02] <Kinnison> arf arf arf
[12:03] <Kinnison> yum
[12:03] <Kinnison> fish.
[12:04] <mdke> raw mind
[12:04] <jamesh> lamont: chmod -w
[12:04] <Kinnison> mmm fishy
[12:05] <lamont> jamesh: I was thinking of chmod -Rw, but that seemed a trifle mean