[10:43] <pef> hello
[02:00] <verwilst> Riddell?
[02:00] <verwilst> is kdevelop 3.3rc1 packaged too for ubuntu?
[02:27] <Tm_T> aerh, is there ready list of dapper repositories? I'm too lazyto write them myself
[02:59] <Tm_T> yup, upgrading to dapper
[03:38] <jeroenvrp> hi folksa
[03:38] <jeroenvrp> can someone please tell me when all KDE3.5RC1 packages will be available?
[03:40] <Tm_T> define all
[03:40] <Tm_T> :p
[03:40] <jeroenvrp> Tm_T: the rest :-)
[03:40] <Tm_T> haha
[03:40] <jeroenvrp> but can you tell me?
[03:40] <Tm_T> well, I think 3.5 will have them all
[03:41] <Tm_T> as soon as you package them ;)
[03:41] <jeroenvrp> kubuntu.org says: "KDE 3.5 Release Candiate 1 has been released, the base packages are available for Kubuntu with more being uploaded this weekend."
[03:55] <OculusAquilae> hi
[03:56] <author-psi> hi OculusAquilae 
[03:56] <OculusAquilae> what would you think of customize minicli for kubuntu like that: http://oculusaquilae.de/kubuntu/dapper/minicli-sudo.png
[03:56] <OculusAquilae> you know it already author-psi, right?
[03:57] <author-psi> yes, an the idea shows perfekt
[04:04] <Tm_T> OculusAquilae: to add "administrator" option? not bad
[04:05] <OculusAquilae> yes, and let the "other user"-option be only for different users not root
[04:05] <Tm_T> why not root too?
[04:06] <Tm_T> :)
[04:06] <OculusAquilae> hm
[04:06] <Tm_T> another users, including root
[04:06] <OculusAquilae> ok
[04:07] <OculusAquilae> that would make it more intuitive for new users, who don't know anything about root or something like that
[04:07] <OculusAquilae> and it would display the idea of sudo in the gui
[04:11] <OculusAquilae> a user without sudo rights could open a program with root-rights as a different user if he knows the password
[04:11] <\sh> OculusAquilae: hum?
[04:12] <OculusAquilae> [16:11]  <\sh> OculusAquilae: hum?
[04:12] <OculusAquilae> [16:11]  <\sh> OculusAquilae: hum?
[04:12] <\sh> OculusAquilae: u mean user X is not in group admin, he will be asked to become user Y which is in group admin?
[04:12] <\sh> to fire up program A which needs root rights?
[04:13] <OculusAquilae> hm
[04:13] <OculusAquilae> first I think of minicli
[04:14] <OculusAquilae> the "Run as administrator" is greyed out if you are not in "admin", if you use "Run as different User" with a user in "admin" it would become black or something like that
[04:15] <Riddell> verwilst: not yet
[04:15] <OculusAquilae> perhaps not greying out and you are asked to become a user in "admin"
[04:15] <Riddell> jeroenvrp: I'll make them today
[04:15] <\sh> well, there must be a reason, that User X is not in the admin group
[04:15] <OculusAquilae> :-)
[04:16] <OculusAquilae> perhaps user Y want's to run a program while only user X is logged in
[04:16] <\sh> OculusAquilae: no user who is not in the admin group should run applications which need root access
[04:16] <OculusAquilae> right
[04:17] <\sh> even not when he knows the password of a user which is in the admin group...that means, he could login as the admin user
[04:17] <OculusAquilae> he could
[04:18] <OculusAquilae> but he only wants to run one small application, because he is for example helping user X with something
[04:18] <\sh> so User X who is not in the admin group, doesn't need to run application A as root or as another user
[04:19] <OculusAquilae> that would in this case take time 
[04:19] <\sh> OculusAquilae: but admins, u know, are quite sensitive with their passwords...so the admin user will take his time...or use "switch user" 
[04:20] <OculusAquilae> hm
[04:20] <OculusAquilae> he could
[04:21] <\sh> he will
[04:21] <OculusAquilae> but in a private environment he won't perhaps
[04:21] <\sh> OculusAquilae: so..u don't think about edubuntu :)
[04:22] <\sh> OculusAquilae: which is using as well some parts of kde :)
[04:22] <OculusAquilae> but it doesn't use minicli right?
[04:22] <OculusAquilae> i only think of minicli at the moment
[04:23] <\sh> OculusAquilae: honestly i don't know..if it's installed by default from kdelibs, it has this feature after install of edubuntu
[04:23] <OculusAquilae> im additionally of the opinion that programs like adept should show up in the menus of normal users
[04:23] <\sh> OculusAquilae: adept should not show up in the menus of normal users..
[04:24] <OculusAquilae> right
[04:24] <\sh> OculusAquilae: a change of behaviour of becoming administrator will confuse the user much more...leave it the way it is..well...actually adept needs more love in UI and handling 
[04:24] <OculusAquilae> i meant that :-)
[04:26] <OculusAquilae> additionally it would partly solve the problem that the minicli user change option doesn't work for normal users
[04:26] <OculusAquilae> it only accepts the root-password
[04:26] <OculusAquilae> :-)
[04:26] <OculusAquilae> i meant only if you are in admin
[04:31] <mornfall> tell me tell me
[04:32] <mornfall> what adept needs?
[04:33] <\sh> mornfall: a better UI...
[04:33] <OculusAquilae> mornfall: the things in the feature plan
[04:33] <\sh> mornfall: press the cursor down key continously and see
[04:34] <mornfall> \sh: cursor down key where?
[04:35] <\sh> mornfall: in the package list
[04:35] <\sh> mornfall: i showed it to Riddell during the conference
[04:35] <mornfall> well, it moves selection down and scrolls
[04:36] <\sh> if u press the cursor down key continously...the list cursor disappears, and the list is not scrolling :)
[04:36] <mornfall> oh, yeah, terrible
[04:36] <mornfall> that's because of doublebuffering and event compression, i suppose
[04:36] <\sh> the other things are speed, and layout
[04:36] <\sh> kynaptic which is crap is much faster...
[04:36] <mornfall> that's because it doesn't really do anything :)
[04:37] <\sh> and the layout e.g. for changing the sources.list should have a dialog box and not swapping the windows
[04:37] <mornfall> "should have" says who
[04:37] <\sh> the plain user
[04:37] <mornfall> you think it would be better, eg... i don't
[04:37] <mornfall> gah
[04:37] <mornfall> plain user
[04:37] <mornfall> who's that
[04:37] <mornfall> i don't buy into that
[04:38] <\sh> mornfall: lets say it like this...all people I know using kubuntu and trying to adjust their sources.list and clicking the close button instead of going back
[04:38] <OculusAquilae> :-)
[04:38] <mornfall> hmm, food, brb
[04:38] <mornfall> \sh: interesting i never heard the complaint before :-)
[04:39] <mornfall> either everyone but your friends keep it secret or it happens more among your friends than everywhere else...
[04:39] <mornfall> anyway, food now, really
[04:39] <\sh> mornfall: well...the users I know are coming from the windows world...I converted them all to use ubuntu or kubuntu...and even I have problems seeing where I am..I e.g. just thought, it was a dialog box
[04:45] <OculusAquilae> \sh: about a normal user doesn't wan't to be admin: If a user didn't want to run applications as a different user, we could completely remove "Run as different user"
[04:46] <OculusAquilae> or completely remove the Options in minicli
[04:48] <\sh> OculusAquilae: hmm....sure..realtime scheduling is only possible when it runs as root, right?
[04:48] <OculusAquilae> right
[04:49] <OculusAquilae> increasing priority too
[04:49] <\sh> so u have to change the UI actually
[04:50] <\sh> disable the last 2 options and enabling it actually only if run as admin is checked
[04:50] <OculusAquilae> yes
[04:51] <\sh> and run as admin and run as diff user should only be enabled when the user is in the admin group or in sudoers.conf
[04:51] <OculusAquilae> runas diff user could be enabled if you are normal user too
[04:52] <\sh> well..after a 5th and 6th thought..yes
[04:54] <Tm_T> python-qt3-gl: Depends: python (< 2.4) but 2.4.2-0ubuntu2 is to be installed
[04:54] <Tm_T> err
[04:54] <Tm_T> dapper
[04:55] <Tm_T> interesting
[04:55] <mornfall> back
[04:56] <mornfall> \sh: well, is there some actual survey resulting in "dialog boxes are good"?
[04:56] <\sh> mornfall: dunno....
[04:56] <mornfall> \sh: because from all the remotely-usability-related people i have heard that not using dialog boxes was good :)
[04:57] <mornfall> so this poses an interesting challenge
[04:57] <\sh> mornfall: but what do u think if we sit together with mvo and build an update-manager with a backend interface and 2 UI frontend interfaces?
[04:57] <mornfall> with the semi-obvious solution being that the window close action goes to normal mode instead of closing when in non-normal mode
[04:58] <mornfall> eventually popping up a dialog box asking which of the two you prefer (and do not ask again checkbox)
[04:58] <mornfall> \sh: what do you mean, sit with mvo?
[04:58] <mornfall> \sh: mvo promised he will branch synaptic to use libapt-front at some point
[04:58] <\sh> mornfall: well...for update manager and others there will be a change in UI anyways especially for the sources.list adjustements
[04:59] <mornfall> change in ui in which sense?
[04:59] <\sh> mornfall: mvo and I were talking about an update-manager for gnome and kde..which means we have to split the UI stuff out of the backend stuff (using python-apt)
[04:59] <\sh> mornfall: the naming conventions are changed and it should be easier for the user to select the ubuntu repositories
[05:00] <Riddell> \sh: the adept updater doesn't use python-apt
[05:00] <\sh> Riddell: i know :)
[05:00] <mornfall> \sh: in which case you will have to write the updater
[05:00] <mornfall> \sh: since i am not touching python with a 10 yard pole
[05:00] <mornfall> nor python-apt or pykde for that matter
[05:02] <mornfall> \sh: on another hand, when swig team gets around to make a release, we will have a single backend for both c++ and python software in libapt-front
[05:02] <\sh> mornfall: the question was in general to find a way to get ubuntu and kubuntu vital admin utils as close as it can be...means one source and at least 3 binary packages e.g. update-manager-be, ubuntu-update-manager, kubuntu-update-manager
[05:02] <mornfall> -be?
[05:02] <\sh> backend
[05:03] <mornfall> wha?
[05:03] <mornfall> doesn't make much sense to me
[05:03] <mornfall> neither why should it come from a single source package
[05:04] <mornfall> i guess you want checkboxes for sources.list selection
[05:04] <mornfall> anything else that currently adept-updater cannot do?
[05:04] <\sh> mornfall: update-manager-backend is only the logic behind all apt stuff...the frontends are only interacting with the backend...and this can be done with two python implementations one for gnome the other for kde
[05:04] <mornfall> what logic?
[05:05] <mornfall> adept udpater is 340 lines of C++, which is largely redundant and will be cut down considerably
[05:05] <\sh> mornfall: w8.i'll get the spec
[05:05] <mornfall> i don't see what there could be split into backend
[05:06] <\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RepositoryDialogRedesign
[05:06] <Riddell> \sh: adept{,-updater} uses libapt-front to abstract all the logic, it's synaptic that should be ported to that to get to what you propose :)
[05:08] <mornfall> \sh: http://rafb.net/paste/results/Ci6XuN79.html -- this is heart of the adept updater
[05:08] <Riddell> RepositoryDialogRedesign looks nice
[05:08] <mornfall> \sh: rest of the code is setting up the gui and stuff like that... parts of which will be cut down
[05:08] <\sh> Riddell: synaptic and update-manager are not using the same source...so synaptic needs to be fixed, right...update-manager is a separate python app..which needs a bit more love to have it separated between logic and ui
[05:09] <\sh> Riddell: that's why I wanted to have the same source base for ubuntu and kubuntu
[05:09] <\sh> Riddell: regarding this repo dialog
[05:09] <mornfall> \sh: so what logic exactly there is?
[05:09] <\sh> Riddell: the repo dialog is in gnome-software-properties
[05:10] <OculusAquilae> wasn't it planned to port synaptic to libapt-front?
[05:10] <\sh> mornfall: installing, updating, upgrading, reading changelogs etc.
[05:10] <mornfall> \sh: all that logic should be in libapt-front (and apart from reading changelogs, it's there for some time anyway)
[05:11] <mornfall> \sh: i guess i'm missing your argument, sorry
[05:11] <\sh> mornfall: again....update-manager is using python-apt which is libapt-front for python :)
[05:11] <mornfall> \sh: not at all
[05:12] <\sh> mornfall: sorry..libapt-pkg
[05:12] <mornfall> right
[05:12] <mornfall> and there are python bindings to libapt-front which can be used and already have most of the backend stuff you are talking about
[05:12] <mornfall> they are only waiting for swig to make a release
[05:12] <mornfall> right now
[05:12] <\sh> mornfall: the idea was not to reinvent the wheel again...and to share the work between the two UIs
[05:13] <\sh> mornfall: and to give the user a "similar" UI design for both desktop environments
[05:13] <mornfall> i am not reinventing the wheel, it's just that libapt-pkg has a sort of useless api (demonstrated by eg synaptic wrapping it in a rather big library that happens to be somewhat specific to synaptic)
[05:14] <mornfall> (and same goes to nearly every package manager out there having an own specific library)
[05:14] <mornfall> (and i am thinking that libapt-front is the first one to be shared by at least 2 otherwise independent projects)
[05:14] <mornfall> err 3
[05:14] <Riddell> mornfall: what's the other projects?
[05:14] <mornfall> Riddell: debtags and packagebrowser
[05:15] <Riddell> oh, cool
[05:15] <mornfall> oh and debtags-edit but that doesn't completely count
[05:15] <mornfall> (debtags-edit is a gtk ui for editing the debtags data)
[05:15] <mornfall> synaptic was promised to be ported as well
[05:16] <mornfall> so maybe update-manager should follow too, instead of rewriting all that in python again?
[05:16] <mornfall> (now that would probably be reinventing wheels...)
[05:17] <\sh> mornfall: update-manager is python :)
[05:17] <OculusAquilae> \sh: and libapt-front will have a python interface, right?
[05:17] <mornfall> \sh: so it needs to reimplement all the logic that is bound to python because of what?
[05:18] <mornfall> \sh: or you imply that instead we should rewrite everything else in python so we don't reinvent wheels?
[05:20] <\sh> mornfall: the idea was to have one source base for the logic and two or more UIs attached to it...so we have only one source package for two or more flavours 
[05:21] <mornfall> *sigh*
[05:22] <mornfall> can you explain *why*?
[05:22] <mornfall> why it needs to be single source package
[05:22] <mornfall> and what you mean with that "logic" again
[05:22] <mornfall> because all the logic you so far mentioned belongs at least one level down the chain
[05:22] <mornfall> and should be shared with package managers as well
[05:23] <mornfall> not only update managers
[05:23] <mornfall> what you propose obviously locks out synaptic and adept from using whatever "logic" there is
[05:23] <mornfall> (and any other tool that one may want to write)
[05:24] <mornfall> given libapt-front and swig bindings, you have all the logic in libraries that you can use from c++ *and* python (*and* ruby, at some point)
[05:24] <mornfall> so all the update managers *and* package managers *and* other tools can use it
[05:25] <mornfall> *and* it is not specific to (k)ubuntu so plain debian tools can use it as well
[05:25] <\sh> mornfall: we have right now different ui approaches for the same things...regarding sources.list adminstration, update managers etc. to make it as easy as it can for the users who are switching desktops we should avoid different ui approaches..
[05:26] <mornfall> \sh: now, IMHO, that's bs
[05:27] <mornfall> \sh: in that case, just use bluecurve and write the tools only once and they will be identical
[05:27] <mornfall> \sh: that's about what you want, anyway, no?
[05:27] <\sh> mornfall: which was also an idea :)
[05:30] <mornfall> in the end, i'm glad i'm not using kubuntu (it's enough that i have to fight this on fedora...)
[05:31] <Riddell> you use fedora?
[05:31] <mornfall> i work for redhat
[05:31] <\sh> hehee
[05:31] <mornfall> at work i use fedora
[05:31] <mornfall> at home debian
[05:31] <\sh> I worked for redhat :) and that's why i'm not using fedora
[05:32] <mornfall> i eventually add rpm support to libapt-front and make adept work on it as well
[05:32] <\sh> mornfall: what u want is "smart"
[05:32] <\sh> mornfall: which will be used eventually for dapper +1
[05:33] <OculusAquilae> hm
[05:33] <mornfall> \sh: heh, no
[05:33] <OculusAquilae> don't like smart 
[05:33] <mornfall> \sh: it may be used, but i won't use it
[05:33] <mornfall> it's sort of like yum
[05:33] <mornfall> and yum is the worst mistake i have seen so far
[05:33] <\sh> mornfall: well....it's decided already as I understand mark :)
[05:34] <mornfall> \sh: i don't care, i don't use ubuntu anyway :)
[05:34] <Riddell> it's not decided, it's an idea
[05:34] <\sh> Riddell: u know mark :) if he wants something :) he's the sabdfl :) 
[05:34] <mornfall> smart is in python
[05:34] <\sh> yes
[05:34] <mornfall> and python is dumb
[05:34] <mornfall> not to mention slow
[05:35] <Riddell> \sh: mvo suggested you make a kde frontend to smart
[05:35] <mornfall> well, smart works around that by writing parts in C
[05:35] <\sh> Riddell: WHAT?
[05:35] <mornfall> yeh, good idea
[05:35] <OculusAquilae> for small things python is nice
[05:35] <mornfall> \sh: go ahead :)
[05:35] <mornfall> OculusAquilae: i find octave better for arithmetic thanks ;-)
[05:35] <\sh> Riddell: well actually I was pissed, that smart has only a gtk front
[05:35] <OculusAquilae> (but a package manager is to my mind not "small")
[05:36] <mornfall> there're really few python/kde coders out there
[05:36] <mornfall> so you will have to do it yourself
[05:36] <mornfall> even kde apt frontend had to be written by someone outside kubuntu
[05:36] <mornfall> and for me, smart is not an option
[05:37] <\sh> mornfall: is fedora using now apt4rpm as default?
[05:37] <mornfall> \sh: no, yum
[05:37] <mornfall> \sh: another python package manager
[05:37] <Riddell> \sh: sounds like you're the man for the job.  apparantly it's really easy since smart is python and has all the logic in it
[05:37] <\sh> mornfall: hmmm...in combination with RHN?
[05:37] <mornfall> \sh: i would prefer installshield though, it's lots faster
[05:38] <mornfall> \sh: no, RHEL is using up2date
[05:38] <mornfall> \sh: i guess we don't dare to unload the load of crap yum is on paying customers
[05:38] <\sh> mornfall: btw..is spot still working for RH?
[05:38] <mornfall> spot = ?
[05:39] <Riddell> mornfall: \sh used to work for red hat, but presumably in a different country
[05:40] <\sh> mornfall: I don't know his realname anymore..he was sitting at raleigh/durham in the nerd department :) I think he was working for 3rd support when I was visiting RH HQ 
[05:40] <\sh> Riddell: EMEA yes :)
[05:41] <\sh> Riddell: together with harald hoyer, who is doing a lot of fedora stuff nowadays
[05:41] <mornfall> ok this doesn't matter and i have a polynomial group to find a generator for
[06:01] <\sh> Riddell: i'll have a look at smart later during this cycle
[06:46] <LeeJunFan> wouldn't it make sense to have artsd startup somehow during init bound to 127.0.0.1 with network enabled so multiple logins can all have sound or has this been hashed over before already?
[06:48] <Riddell> LeeJunFan: network would add lag (even localhost), and mostly multiple logins are ok either because the sound card driver can handle multiple programs or because arts lets go of the sound card after 60 seconds
[06:48] <LeeJunFan> if course then there's the problem of having an administator mode configurator for arts.
[06:48] <Tm_T> Riddell: using dapper ?
[06:48] <Riddell> Tm_T: hmm?
[06:48] <Tm_T> Riddell: found interesting thing when compiling kopete
[06:48] <Tm_T> in breezy, all fine
[06:49] <Tm_T> dapper... well, trouble with visibility
[06:49] <Tm_T> let's see if one # fixes it :p
[06:50] <Riddell> Tm_T: kopete 3.5rc1 compiled fine for me
[06:50] <Tm_T> Riddell: ah yes, dev-0.12 branch here :p
[06:50] <Tm_T> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/427962
[06:51] <Tm_T> and one before
[06:51] <Riddell> Tm_T: that's not visibility, that's just gcc 4 being fussy
[06:52] <Riddell> or something
[06:52] <Tm_T> ah
[06:52] <Tm_T> Riddell: well, Darkshock said it might be it
[06:53] <Tm_T> ah yes, same error again
[06:53] <Tm_T> Riddell: hmm, any fixes?
[06:54] <Riddell> Tm_T: use 3.5?
[06:55] <Tm_T> hmh
[06:55] <Tm_T> have to try
[07:04] <verwilst> arts should die a violent death :p
[07:04] <Riddell> verwilst: if you use beta 2 it usually does 
[07:04] <verwilst> hehe
[07:05] <verwilst> i'll be glad that kde 4.0 is here for soo many reasons :p
[07:07] <Tm_T> heh
[07:08] <Tm_T> http://img334.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kopetekde3kde4sidebyside5qc.jpg
[07:08] <Tm_T> KDE4 is here ;)
[07:08] <Tm_T> no, that's not my desktop
[07:11] <author-psi> Tm_T: looks like my desktop :P kde 3.4.3
[07:11] <Tm_T> heh
[07:12] <Tm_T> I'm using rc1
[07:13] <author-psi> im not the big fan of beta..
[07:14] <Tm_T> heh
[07:19] <author-psi> Tm_T: hehe how often you reinstall your system :D
[07:19] <Tm_T> my Kubuntu? not once
[07:20] <Tm_T> I even find apps working better in "unstable" branch than stable releases
[07:20] <verwilst> kde always looks clunky :$
[07:20] <verwilst> i hope it'll be solved with kde 4 :p
[07:22] <Tm_T> clunky?
[07:24] <Tm_T> I don't understand
[07:25] <author-psi> me2
[07:27] <Tm_T> Riddell: yup, different gcc and things working ok
[10:45] <mae> is it true that MS wants to make kubuntu rock more now? :)
[10:46] <Riddell> mae: Mark Shuttleworth does, Microsoft doesn't :)
[10:47] <mae> yes
[10:47] <mae> well - i assumed you would not think M$ wants to make kubuntu rock
[10:47] <mae> kde has a lot of potential but its missing alot of the nice automagic features that the current ubuntu gnome has
[10:48] <Riddell> mae: any specific examples?
[10:48] <mae> well you know - the nice extensions that ubuntu wrote for synaptic
[10:49] <mae> um - digikam doesn't autodetect cameras nicely like gthumb
[10:49] <Riddell> mae: specific example would help here, so we can write them
[10:49] <mae> the autoupdate applet
[10:50] <Riddell> we do have adept-updater, we just need a thingy to poke the user when updates are needed
[10:50] <mae> Riddell: do you work for canonical?
[10:51] <Riddell> which we will get in dapper with any luck
[10:51] <Riddell> mae: I'm contacted (until the end of the week)
[10:51] <mae> contracted?
[10:51] <mae> :P
[10:54] <Riddell> mae: yes
[10:54] <Riddell> mae: broodwar?
[10:54] <mornfall> Riddell: how, until end of the week?
[10:54] <mae> starcraft
[10:55] <mornfall> starcraft is a wicked game
[10:55] <mae> who wrote adept?
[10:55] <mornfall> mae: i did
[10:55] <Riddell> mornfall: well it runs out at the end of the week, I suppose I should ask what happens after that
[10:55] <mornfall> Riddell: hmm, i guess you should have it prolonged :)
[10:55] <mae> when did you write it?
[10:57] <mornfall> mae: august till breezy release, cca
[10:57] <mornfall> august and september, basically
[10:57] <mae> ah
[10:58] <mae> have you considered swiping some of synaptics icons ?
[10:58] <mae> or are you trying to keep it BSD pure
[10:58] <mornfall> mae: it's not bsd pure, given it uses libapt for now (which is gpl)
[10:58] <mornfall> mae: (and for forseeable future it will)
[10:58] <mornfall> as for icons, i am not sure they fit kde though
[10:58] <mae> heh
[10:59] <mae> well i meant for the columns -- like where it says 'installed'
[10:59] <mae> etc
[11:00] <mornfall> yes, and those are pretty gtkish :-)
[11:00] <mae> heh
[11:00] <mae> I like gtkish :\
[11:01] <mornfall> when i get around to use icons for states (not critical, color coding seems to work better anyway), you will probably be able to swap them with a theme :-)
[11:01] <mae> ic
[11:02] <mae> well it looks nice!
[11:02] <mornfall> i mean, how often you look at icons in say kmail to see if a message is new/seen/...
[11:02] <mae> synaptic is more feature-complete right now
[11:02] <mornfall> they look to me like a decoration
[11:02] <mornfall> of course
[11:02] <mae> i think it depends on the person -- i can recognize icons much faster once i get used to them.
[11:02] <mornfall> it wasn't written in 2 months, either x)
[11:03] <mae> mornfall: oh -- that wasn't meant to be a negative comment -- rather I'm just critiquing
[11:03] <mae> its very good for the time you put into it so far
[11:03] <mornfall> it intends to beat everything else, eventually x)
[11:03] <mae> good
[11:04] <Riddell> mae: if you have specific features that you miss that's useful to know
[11:04] <mornfall> mae: check http://web.ekhis.org/adept.html for the current feature plan
[11:04] <mae> already been there :)
[11:04] <mornfall> mae: anything you would add to it? :)
[11:05] <mae> it looks pretty complete
[11:05] <mae> the individual .deb install would be very nice -- but i think it should be decoupled from adept -- rather have a generic interface and the two access apt through it.
[11:05] <mornfall> mae: everything in adept is decoupled and this won't be different
[11:06] <mornfall> mae: all the generic features are in libapt-front
[11:06] <mae> ah
[11:06] <mornfall> write a library that will make writing your program easy first :)
[11:06] <mae> is it written in C++?
[11:06] <mornfall> yes
[11:06] <mae> ah
[11:07] <mornfall> libapt-front is covered with unit-tests fairly well
[11:07] <mae> ic.
[11:07] <mae> is adept mostly qt4 ready?
[11:07] <mornfall> i don't think so, and the bump won't come before adept 3.0
[11:08] <mae> mornfall: one thing about the individual deb install
[11:08] <mornfall> substantial part of libept (adept's own library, mostly generic GUI elements) is concerned with intimate listview fiddling :)
[11:09] <mornfall> and listviews changed a lot in qt 4
[11:09] <mae> a nice feature would be when you install non-repo debs that it would automatically grab the dependencies if available in the repo
[11:09] <Riddell> qt4 would be nice for the faster list handling, but it would mean loosing KDE stuff for now
[11:09] <mornfall> Riddell: i don't think i'll go with pure-qt
[11:09] <Riddell> agreed
[11:09] <mae> best idea is to bump when kde upgrades their libs?
[11:09] <mae> :)
[11:10] <mornfall> mae: for non-repo debs, well, that's given, no? :)
[11:10] <mornfall> mae: (i mean, that's the whole point of it...)
[11:10] <mae> mornfall: right :)
[11:11] <mornfall> ah, and if you break it, you gotta keep both pieces
[11:11] <mornfall> mae: do you know Enrico Zini?
[11:11] <mae> no.
[11:12] <mornfall> he helped out with libapt-front, specifically debtags parts of it (given enrico wrote debtags and ported the debtags utilities over to libapt-front as we were doing it)
[11:13] <mae> nice
[11:13] <Riddell> mornfall: what's the status of debtags in debian now?  is it part of the debs?
[11:13] <mornfall> there's one unfortunate thing with libapt-front... doxygen and older compilers all choke on it...
[11:13] <mae> :\
[11:14] <mornfall> well, doxygen doesn't specifically choke, it just produces trash output
[11:14] <mornfall> and gcc 3 doesn't seem to be able to compile it either
[11:14] <verwilst> gui i mean
[11:14] <mornfall> verwilst: another one, huh? :)
[11:14] <verwilst> mornfall, well, adept seems pretty nice..
[11:15] <verwilst> but i don't really like the gui
[11:15] <verwilst> way too complex :$
[11:15] <mornfall> what would you prefer?
[11:15] <mornfall> it's still lot simpler than say synaptic
[11:15] <verwilst> i like something like this better : http://www.kde-look.org/content/pre1/24793-1.jpg
[11:15] <verwilst> mornfall, well this one isn't perfect either
[11:15] <verwilst> but it's more like it ;)
[11:15] <mornfall> verwilst: okey, that's not really a package manager
[11:16] <verwilst> yeah i know
[11:16] <mae> I think the interface is nice -- but i agree with verwilst -- I think that at least the search interface is a bit complex
[11:16] <verwilst> but it's the idea ;)
[11:16] <mornfall> verwilst: but yeah, something like it shouldn't be hard on top of libapt-front (and libept, eventually)
[11:16] <verwilst> mornfall, that was my plan ;)
[11:16] <mae> I like the search interface of synaptic better
[11:16] <mae> and how it had the categories on the left
[11:17] <mornfall> mae: categories utterly don't scale
[11:17] <verwilst> idd
[11:17] <mae> maybe with searching if you don't like dialogs you could do something like FF where ctrl-f or toggles the search box at the bottom of the window
[11:17] <mae> or \/ rather
[11:17] <verwilst> mornfall, what's libept?
[11:17] <mornfall> mae: i think searching is one of the very central concepts of package management
[11:17] <mae> argh you know front slash like vi
[11:17] <mornfall> verwilst: the library between adept and libapt-front
[11:18] <mornfall> mae: yes, but right now, the absolutely most common pattern in #kubuntu seems to be "type <x> into adept"
[11:18] <verwilst> mornfall, is it qt or plain c++?
[11:18] <mae> mornfall: it is.. ok forget about the categories -- you know it wasnt just categories that synaptic has on left it has sections status etc. i liked how i could just click on local or obsolete and see all my residual stuff
[11:19] <mornfall> mae: oh yeah, that will surely come
[11:19] <mornfall> mae: all with a sidebar x)
[11:19] <mae> ok :)
[11:19] <mornfall> mae: (which may or may not be hidden by default, i'll contemplate :)
[11:19] <verwilst> mornfall, adept is good for power-users
[11:19] <mae> mornfall: and a shortcut for focusing on the quick search box would be nice -- like ctrl-f or a front slash
[11:19] <verwilst> but normal joe schmoe users are sooo lost :$
[11:20] <verwilst> and is there something like update-notifier in the works for kde?
[11:20] <mornfall> mae: the add filter thingy will eventually work via d&d from the sidebar or something like that... the "easy tag filter" will eventually go away and be replaced by a smart search tab in the sidebar
[11:21] <mae> ah
[11:21] <verwilst> http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=29426
[11:21] <verwilst> suhweet
[11:21] <mornfall> mae: anyway, this is for long thinking and i am not in that state right now :)
[11:21] <mae> heh
[11:22] <mornfall> i am glad i managed to make this galois field code work as it was intended to and all :)
[11:22] <Riddell> mae: that's moodin engine, which we'll probably use in dapper
[11:22] <Riddell> verwilst: rather
[11:22] <mornfall> moodin huh?
[11:23] <Riddell> ksplash engine
[11:23] <mae> hmm
[11:23] <mornfall> everything is "moodin" these days eh?
[11:23] <verwilst> Riddell, http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=16962
[11:23] <mornfall> wasn't a new amarok thingy called like that?
[11:23] <mae> I just wish kde wasn't so damn flashy
[11:23] <verwilst> Riddell, lots of rubberband speedups lately ;)
[11:23] <verwilst> Riddell, yeah, mooding rocks :$
[11:23] <verwilst> moodin :p
[11:24] <Riddell> verwilst: that hasn't been updated since Nov 04
[11:24] <verwilst> it's the 13th :p
[11:24] <verwilst> oh
[11:24] <verwilst> haha
[11:24] <verwilst> stupid me :p
[11:24] <verwilst> nm then :p
[11:24] <verwilst> rubberband still is a bit slow
[11:25] <mae> I want my gecko engine for konq!
[11:25] <mornfall> i consider the rubberband patch too intrusive to be applied externally
[11:25] <mornfall> eww gecko, as if konq wasn't slow enough already
[11:25] <mae> lol
[11:25] <mornfall> whatever =)
[11:26] <mae> at least it doesn't choke on some sites
[11:26] <mornfall> let me have my broodwar
[11:26] <mornfall> i let you have your gecko or whatever lizards you want
[11:26] <mae> no one cares about technical purity if the damn thing doesnt work
[11:26] <mae> lol
[11:26] <mae> ok -- i need to install that on my puter again
[11:26] <mae> i'll have to play you sometime
[11:26] <mornfall> hehe :)
[11:26] <mornfall> i'll be hanging around
[11:27] <mornfall> pvpgn works with broodwar+wine these days
[11:27] <mornfall> (pvpgn the unofficial battle.net)
[11:27] <mae> that rocks
[11:27] <mae> i just wish i still had my bw
[11:27] <mae> i lost my cds
[11:27] <mae> ebay
[11:27] <mornfall> i have tarball x)
[11:27] <mae> i am absolutely addicted to yakuake
[11:28] <mae> mornfall: send it!
[11:28] <mae> i will roxor you with my hydralisks
[11:29] <mornfall> x)
[11:29] <mornfall> carriers own
[11:29] <mae> wha?
[11:29] <mae> since what patch
[11:29] <mornfall> no idea :)
[11:29] <mornfall> i guess since always :)
[11:29] <mae> you play with your carriers
[11:29] <mae> i'll roxor them with hydras
[11:29] <mae> lol
[11:30] <mornfall> hydras cannot fly over water x)
[11:30] <mae> doesnt matter
[11:30] <mae> they will waste your carriers
[11:30] <mornfall> and well, dark templars + reavers own too x)
[11:30] <mae> and then it takes you a long time to build them again
[11:30] <mae> you kill my hydras and i can amasse another army in less than a min
[11:31] <mornfall> but then, i haven't played against humans in ages
[11:32] <mornfall> good hunter killers cannot be created x)
[11:33] <mornfall> but then, i was never en-masse player, in any game
[11:33] <mornfall> well, apart from masses of interceptors ;-)
[11:34] <jjesse> ping Riddell
[11:35] <Riddell> jjesse: yo
[11:40] <Riddell> jjesse: yo
[11:40] <jjesse> Riddell: kubuntu docs should they be published on help.ubuntu.com?
[11:41] <Riddell> jjesse: sure
[11:44] <jjesse> Riddell: can we then get the links on kubuntu.org/documentation.php linked to help.ubuntu.com?
[11:44] <jjesse> and the corresponding documentation?
[11:45] <Riddell> jjesse: yep
[11:45] <jjesse> Riddell: awesome thanks :)
[11:45] <Riddell> but I need to fix the stylesheets first presumably
[11:45] <jjesse> Riddell: yes you still do 
[11:47] <Riddell> unfortunatly kde 3.5 got in the way of that so far
[11:48] <jjesse> Riddell: no worries on that
[11:48] <jjesse> Riddell: i'll just keeping bugging you like you asked me to do
[11:49] <Riddell> yes, do
[11:56] <mae> ehm
[11:56] <mae> what package do i need to enable vector graphics in kde
[11:57] <Riddell> mae: how do you mean?
[11:57] <mae> well
[11:57] <mae> none of these vector themes work
[11:57] <mae> that are included in kubuntu
[11:58] <Riddell> vector themes?
[11:58] <mae> "SphereCrystal" "Vector Them" shows up blank icons for me
[11:58] <Riddell> never heard of them
[11:59] <mae> o you know what
[11:59] <mae> I think its showing the gnome icons in here