rob1mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas12:27
mdkerob1, interesting stuff12:38
mdkei had in mind not so much a competition as such, but more general feedback initiatives. but the competition idea might work12:38
mdkealso I think we should encourage users to submit what they would like to see answered, not necessarily the answers themselves12:39
rob1well the competition will get our name and work out there12:39
mdkebut obviously, if they want to, then that is even better12:39
mdkei thought we were dropping that "How can I" phraseology?12:39
rob1we should, but it doesn't really look like a question then12:40
rob1but we can trim that out12:40
mdkeit seemed quite unamimous at the meeting12:40
LaserJockhow is this different than what is already in place? Aren't people welcome to make patches?12:41
rob1LaserJock, yes but they are in xml12:41
mdkeLaserJock, we just want to give people some encouragement12:41
mdkepublicity as it were12:41
rob1this is for plain english "patches"12:41
rob1and yes, publicity mainly12:41
mdkethis "credit within the doc" I don't really like12:42
mdkeI don't really like the idea of author attribution at all in fact, i'd rather just "Ubuntu Documentation Team" :)12:42
rob1well we could just list them on the Credits and Licence page below everything12:42
LaserJockahh, that makes sense. what about something like a "patch of the week" kind of thing posted on the fridge or help.u.c or something12:42
rob1mdke, yes, but according to the licences we use we need to give some credit back to them12:43
rob1LaserJock, yeah kind of12:43
rob1LaserJock, that or one with an ending date12:43
mdkerob1, you're falling into the same trap as that guy on the mailing list12:44
mdkethe licence defines how people can copy OUR doc, not how we attribute contributions12:44
rob1mdke, no I'm looking at it as if the submitter is the author, and we are using a derivative of it12:45
mdkerob1, correct. so the licence that applies is the one that THEY put on their contribution, not our licences12:45
rob1so we say everything that is submitted is public domain?12:45
mdkewe could. but sadly people like attribution12:46
mdkeincluding the docteam, hence our licences :(12:46
rob1I think a lot of people in the community would get a buzz out of having their name in something12:46
mdkeit is an incentive12:46
rob1which is kind of the whole thing that spurs this on12:46
LaserJockI like the idea of an author list in a comment of the xml file12:47
rob1unless we list them somewhere on doc.u.c as winners?12:47
rob1or yes, a comment of them?12:47
rob1but the comment kind of defeats the point still12:47
mdkeif you want attribution as part of the incentive, it has to be in the authors and licensing section12:48
LaserJockyou can seperate acknowledgment on a webpage and authorship in the xml, right?12:48
mdkei don't have a problem with it on a separate page12:48
rob1yeah 12:48
mdkegiven that docteam members are attributed12:48
mdkeone more thing12:48
mdkethat feedback initiative shouldn't only apply to the Ubuntu Desktop Guide12:49
mdkebut to everything12:49
rob1sure, that page only dealt with the compatition though12:49
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rob1the other docs could follow in line if we continue it as a feedback only thing after the comp12:50
rob1the competition could just be a way of promoting the feedback system12:51
mdkei am not sure I like the idea of a competition12:52
mdkei prefer rolling feedback initiatives12:52
mdkebut I dunno12:52
rob1check the page now..12:54
rob1does that sound better?12:54
=== mdke nods
mdkesend it out for discussion on the ML12:55
rob1one question, should we limit the actual competition part of it to the desktop guide?12:56
manickasorry, I've come in late.... which page?12:56
mdkeit depends on the state of the documents12:56
rob1manicka, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas12:56
rob1well I have pretty much settled on the layout of the desktop guide, just need to work out that final olink issue12:57
rob1although that will only affect the release mainly12:57
mdkei will probably start removing "how do I" soon :)12:57
rob1the guide should validate ok, just olinkdb.xml won't at this stage12:58
mdkerob1, the problem is, how can we validate the whole guide?12:58
mdkei liked it as one page :)12:58
rob1I'm pretty sure all the individual pages validate ok by themselves too12:58
rob1mdke, just validate desktopguide.xml12:59
rob1(I think)12:59
rob1or just validate as you go12:59
mdkerob1, didn't we have this discussion before, and we discovered that it only validates the individual file12:59
mdkeor did that only apply to the entities12:59
rob1probably, but at least you get the right error line12:59
rob1entites were different, they were included as is01:00
rob1xincludes are more intelligent, they are individual documents in their own right01:00
mdkei seem to remember us coming to the conclusion that it only validated one file01:00
rob1most likely01:00
rob1hang on I'll check it01:00
mdkedon't worry about it01:01
mdkethe other thing I'm concerned about is the complexity of the Makefile, i dunno if it is possible to make that simpler01:01
rob1mdke, no by validating desktopguide.xml you validate the whole thing01:01
mdkemust have just been entities that don't get validated then01:02
rob1and when you do, it give you the xml file that the error is in including which line in that file01:02
rob1yes, entities are like variables, xincludes are like classes01:03
rob1(in programming lingo)01:03
rob1or in other words, entities are included as is, xincludes are used but treated separate01:04
rob1and can have their own variables etc01:06
mdkerob1, can the processing instructions in the makefile be simplified?01:08
rob1mdke, yes, check out the testing makefile I have in the desktopguide/C/ direcotry (called mk)01:08
rob1with a bit of shell scripting I might even be able to get it simpler still01:09
mdkethat is quite good01:09
mdkeif we had one of each of those in each language directory01:09
mdkethe generic makefile could call each one01:09
mdkeas necessary01:09
mdkethat way we wouldn't have to change the address for each entry in the generic makefile01:09
mdkethat would be great01:10
rob1and it would be much less clogged01:10
mdkeyeah defo01:10
mdkeyou can eliminate the /usr/share/ bollocks by setting a variable i think, like in the ubuntu/Makefile01:10
mdkegreat work dude, that has made me happy01:11
rob1cool, glad to be of service :)01:11
BurglaptopMadpilot, ping01:16
MadpilotBurglaptop: hi01:16
Lizwhats with this ping thing?01:17
BurglaptopMadpilot, I will not be coming over this evening. Going to spend the night with C01:18
BurglaptopLiz, if you are looking for someone, you ping them01:18
BurglaptopLiz, if they are there, they pong back, ala the program ping01:18
Lizso you arent actually 'pinging' them then01:19
Lizits just a way to get attention01:19
rob1umm no not using icmp01:19
Lizok..fair enough01:19
MadpilotBurglaptop: OK - see you next week sometime, then01:20
BurglaptopMadpilot, sounds good01:20
rob1sent a quick email to the list01:29
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mdkeany kubuntu docteam people around?03:10
=== rob1 wonders if that email got through
mdkesure it did03:41
rob1hmm my email must be playing up then03:42
mdkethe one with the competition?03:42
rob1umm yeah03:42
mdkehttp://help.ubuntu.com <- about kubuntu :D03:45
rob1looks very kubuntu-ish03:46
rob1no colours though03:46
mdkei used the kde css03:47
rob1are there suppose to be?03:47
mdkesort of grey and light blue03:47
mdkeworks here03:47
rob1only the text is coloured03:47
mdketext should be black03:48
mdkeheadings grey, links light blue03:48
rob1headings are gray, links blue03:48
rob1and the text is whatever font03:49
mdkeok so that is how it should be03:49
rob1no kubuntu logo?03:49
mdkei don't think there is one in the document03:49
mdkebed time03:58
Madpilotthere's still a CSS error in both doc.u.c and help.u.c - the header graphic doesn't got right to the top & sides of the page in Opera...04:01
rob1night mdke 04:04
rob1same in ff04:05
Madpilotreally? they both look OK in FF for me04:07
MadpilotI haven't bothered viewing source, but I'm willing to bet that adding padding:0;margin:0 to the body tag would solve the problem04:07
rob1its about a mm off on the left side04:08
Madpilotyeah, you're right... odd error04:09
rob1blah I have cat5 all over the place04:14
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Burglaptoprob1, you should be rob1@ubuntu.com07:42
rob1I would think so, yes07:42
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rob1Burglaptop, how did you go with that email?07:49
Burglaptopjust sent it07:51
rob1I'm assuming it is forward to whatever is my email address in launchpad?07:51
Burglaptopjust bounced07:51
Burglaptopoh wait, doh07:52
rob1ah I got the one from you just then07:53
rob1looks like I can't email myself however, but at least I know it works now, thanks :)07:53
Burglaptopyes, emailing yourself causes real problems07:54
Burglaptopapparently the ubuntu mail server doesn't like it07:54
Madpilotgah... Stephen Hermann's blog is repeating itself to planet.u.c again... old posts being reposted08:07
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mdkemorning all12:27
mdkeMadpilot, that's been going on for months, it's super annoying12:29
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highvoltageugh. the wiki is painfully slow again.01:44
mdkegood old wiki01:47
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Burgundaviahow do I tell OOo not to auto link my bloody email/urls?11:01
HrdwrBoBI think it's under autocorrect11:03
Burgundaviaholy crap there are a lot of useless options under Tools11:05
Burgundavialike, Use OpenGL and how many undo functions to remember11:05
BurgundaviaMadpilot, ping11:18
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Burgundaviasalut encore, kapputu 11:24
kapputuhi Burgundavia 11:24
Burgundaviayou are interested in helping Ubuntu?11:25
kapputusalut is French?11:25
kapputuyes 11:25
kapputuvery much 11:25
mdke hello again kapputu :)11:25
kapputuhi mdke11:25
kapputuI have not been involved in any open-source project before 11:25
kapputuif there is something I need to read up on, I can do that 11:26
Burgundavianot really11:26
Burgundaviathe biggest thing you need to be aware of of is how to work as a team, which some of us (including myself) fail at occasionaly11:26
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kapputuok 11:27
mdkesurely not11:27
Burgundaviaremember that any text based medium is hard to convey lots of meaning, so misunderstandings can happen11:27
kapputuI feel I'm quite adept at that, but hey we surely lose our minds sometime11:27
kapputuyes, it's difficult to convey emotions 11:27
Burgundaviawhat interests you?11:28
kapputuwith Ubuntu?11:28
Burgundaviayes, but also with computers generally11:28
kapputuI like Natural Language Processing 11:30
Burgundaviahave you done much programming before?11:31
kapputuyes, but I have not really learnt a lot 11:31
Burgundaviadon't worry, I am very much in the same boat11:31
kapputuI have dabbled with different languages 11:31
Burgundaviaplayed at all with python?11:31
kapputuI work as a Perl developer 11:31
BurgundaviaUbuntu is a little python mad11:32
kapputuyes I bought Learning Python and read a few chapters11:32
kapputuyes that's why I started learning python11:32
kapputuI have been reading and working on it here and there 11:32
kapputuI played with Tkinter, wxPython 11:32
Burgundaviaan interesting project that might need somebody is the server/laptop testing stuff11:32
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kapputusure, I have a laptop with me and I'm building a spare machine to run a file server for personal use 11:33
Burgundaviacurrently the laptop testing is done by hand and recorded on a wiki page11:33
Burgundaviafor starters it would be nice if we could have a webform and database to handle this11:34
Burgundaviathen we could hook up a front end that makes the testing easier11:34
jjesseisn't laptop testing stuff found at LaptopTeam11:34
Burgundaviajjesse, yes it is11:34
kapputuwhere would it be hosted?11:34
Burgundaviaif you wrote something sane, it could easily be hosted on canonical servers11:34
Burgundaviakapputu, where in the world do you live?11:34
kapputuI live in Mountain View, CA11:34
Burgundaviaah, same timezone as myself11:35
BurgundaviaI live in Victoria, Canada11:35
kapputuoh ok 11:35
kapputuso the tests are run from the command-line 11:35
kapputuand you want a front-end for it?11:35
Burgundaviacurrently the tests are run by hand11:35
Burgundaviado the keys work, etc.11:35
kapputucan I see an example of these tests?11:36
mdkelots :)11:36
Burgundaviaclick on any of the links there11:36
Burgundaviathat is the information we need in a good form11:36
kapputuso this information is entered by hand now?11:37
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Burgundaviaso bitrot is easy11:38
Burgundaviaok, wrong term11:38
Burgundavialazy contributers is the bigger issue11:38
Burgundaviakapputu, is this somethign that interests you?11:38
kapputupeople don't enter the information?11:38
Burgundaviathey do, but often they don't keep it up to date11:39
mdkedo people with Canonical laptops not keep the pages up to date?11:39
Burgundaviamdke, the canonical people do11:39
kapputuso I'll be developing this in Python and running it on Zope11:39
Burgundaviathe non-canonical people are the ones I am thinking of11:39
Burgundaviawhat ever you like11:39
jjessehey  not all the non-canonical people don't update thier pages :)11:39
Burgundaviaultimately the person you need to laise with Matthew Garret11:39
kapputuwhat I'm not understanding is what kind of form do you want?11:39
Burgundaviathere are two parts as I see it11:40
Burgundaviathe first part would be to create a web form with a backend11:40
kapputuso you would want something like "Screen - Ok, Not Ok (radio buttons)"?11:40
kapputuok 11:40
kapputuBug# would be generated automatically?11:40
mdkeno, the user has to file the bug I think11:41
Burgundaviapeople would still have to file bugs, but that can be worked on later11:41
kapputuhow does the database get populated?11:41
Burgundaviapeople go to the webpage, sign in and enter in their data11:41
kapputuyou want to generate a form based on the product?11:41
kapputuor is it a standard form for all laptops?11:42
Burgundaviaa standard form for all laptops11:42
Burgundaviathere would need to be an area to extend it for special stuff like card readers, etc.11:42
mdkepeople would also need to be able to update the information easily, for example if a bug was fixed11:43
Burgundaviaafter the data is entered, Matthew needs to be able to pull it out in a good form, for use in Ubuntu (or any distro)11:43
mdkeand ideally, it would have multiple distro version support11:43
kapputuhmm ok 11:43
mdkekapputu, however, if you'd prefer to work on docs, we have some of those too ;)11:43
kapputuany cues on what the form should look like etc?11:44
Burgundaviavery much like the current wiki form is good for now11:44
kapputuI'm 11:44
Burgundaviaif you don't want to do this or don't find it interesting, just ignore me11:44
kapputuno I'm interested 11:45
kapputu1 sec 11:45
Burgundaviakapputu, there are some existing pieces you can tie into. Launchpad can handle all the authentication stuff11:46
kapputuI need to know more about Launchpad 11:47
kapputuI can do this in Perl if it's needed urgently 11:47
Burgundavia#launchpad is you resource for that11:47
kapputuelse I can learn Python and do it 11:47
Burgundaviakapputu, not needed urgently11:47
Burgundaviaand to write it in python makes it far more likely to be persistant11:47
Burgundavias/is you/is your/11:47
kapputuis there some documentation on launchpad?11:47
Burgundaviahmm, don;t know11:47
kapputuok 11:48
mdkea bit11:48
kapputushould I work on documenting Launchpad :-)11:48
kapputuZope is the web server that Python uses?11:49
Burgundaviazope is an application server11:49
BurgundaviaI am not the best person to ask about this11:49
kapputuso this can be developed on Apache with mod-python?11:50
kapputusorry if I'm asking silly questions11:50
mdkejjesse, i fixed the stylesheets11:50
mdkekapputu, no idea sorry11:50
kapputuI'm not sure what my development environment should be, for this application11:51
Burgundaviakapputu, talk to siretart about REVU11:51
Burgundaviait is another python app that will need to authenticate against LP11:51
Burgundaviaand eventually will be absorbed into LP, just like I imagine this work happening11:52
kapputuhmm ok 11:53
BurgundaviaI am writing my ideas down now11:53
kapputuso I'll look into LaunchPad and start learning how to do this in Python 11:54
kapputuis there any code that I can look at?11:55
Burgundaviafor which part?11:55
Burgundaviasadly LP is currently non-free11:55
kapputuis there any Python code written for web applications, so that I can get a better understanding?11:57
HrdwrBoBthere's a massive lot of python out there11:58
Burgundaviatalk with siretart about REVU11:58
HrdwrBoBthere's load of tutorials11:58
HrdwrBoBheaps of documentatio11:58
Burgundaviait is a python based tool for the MOTUS11:58
kapputuHrdwrBoB, tutorials in REVU?12:00
HrdwrBoBpossibly not, but python in general12:01
kapputuBurgundavia, I'll get back to you soon on this 12:02
kapputuI'll develop a prototype with Perl and SQLite 12:03
Burgundaviakapputu, cool, thanks12:03
kapputuhow should I contact you if I don't find you here?12:04
mdkeyou'll find him :)12:04

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