| rob1 | mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas | 12:27 |
|---|---|---|
| mdke | rob1, interesting stuff | 12:38 |
| mdke | i had in mind not so much a competition as such, but more general feedback initiatives. but the competition idea might work | 12:38 |
| mdke | also I think we should encourage users to submit what they would like to see answered, not necessarily the answers themselves | 12:39 |
| rob1 | well the competition will get our name and work out there | 12:39 |
| mdke | but obviously, if they want to, then that is even better | 12:39 |
| rob1 | sure | 12:39 |
| mdke | i thought we were dropping that "How can I" phraseology? | 12:39 |
| rob1 | yeah | 12:40 |
| rob1 | we should, but it doesn't really look like a question then | 12:40 |
| rob1 | but we can trim that out | 12:40 |
| mdke | it seemed quite unamimous at the meeting | 12:40 |
| LaserJock | how is this different than what is already in place? Aren't people welcome to make patches? | 12:41 |
| mdke | sure | 12:41 |
| rob1 | LaserJock, yes but they are in xml | 12:41 |
| mdke | LaserJock, we just want to give people some encouragement | 12:41 |
| mdke | publicity as it were | 12:41 |
| rob1 | this is for plain english "patches" | 12:41 |
| rob1 | and yes, publicity mainly | 12:41 |
| mdke | this "credit within the doc" I don't really like | 12:42 |
| mdke | I don't really like the idea of author attribution at all in fact, i'd rather just "Ubuntu Documentation Team" :) | 12:42 |
| rob1 | well we could just list them on the Credits and Licence page below everything | 12:42 |
| LaserJock | ahh, that makes sense. what about something like a "patch of the week" kind of thing posted on the fridge or help.u.c or something | 12:42 |
| rob1 | mdke, yes, but according to the licences we use we need to give some credit back to them | 12:43 |
| rob1 | LaserJock, yeah kind of | 12:43 |
| rob1 | LaserJock, that or one with an ending date | 12:43 |
| mdke | rob1, you're falling into the same trap as that guy on the mailing list | 12:44 |
| mdke | the licence defines how people can copy OUR doc, not how we attribute contributions | 12:44 |
| rob1 | mdke, no I'm looking at it as if the submitter is the author, and we are using a derivative of it | 12:45 |
| mdke | rob1, correct. so the licence that applies is the one that THEY put on their contribution, not our licences | 12:45 |
| rob1 | so we say everything that is submitted is public domain? | 12:45 |
| mdke | we could. but sadly people like attribution | 12:46 |
| mdke | including the docteam, hence our licences :( | 12:46 |
| rob1 | I think a lot of people in the community would get a buzz out of having their name in something | 12:46 |
| mdke | yes | 12:46 |
| mdke | it is an incentive | 12:46 |
| rob1 | which is kind of the whole thing that spurs this on | 12:46 |
| LaserJock | I like the idea of an author list in a comment of the xml file | 12:47 |
| rob1 | unless we list them somewhere on doc.u.c as winners? | 12:47 |
| rob1 | or yes, a comment of them? | 12:47 |
| rob1 | but the comment kind of defeats the point still | 12:47 |
| mdke | yes | 12:47 |
| mdke | if you want attribution as part of the incentive, it has to be in the authors and licensing section | 12:48 |
| LaserJock | you can seperate acknowledgment on a webpage and authorship in the xml, right? | 12:48 |
| mdke | i don't have a problem with it on a separate page | 12:48 |
| rob1 | yeah | 12:48 |
| mdke | given that docteam members are attributed | 12:48 |
| mdke | one more thing | 12:48 |
| mdke | that feedback initiative shouldn't only apply to the Ubuntu Desktop Guide | 12:49 |
| mdke | but to everything | 12:49 |
| rob1 | sure, that page only dealt with the compatition though | 12:49 |
| rob1 | s/compatition/competition | 12:49 |
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| rob1 | the other docs could follow in line if we continue it as a feedback only thing after the comp | 12:50 |
| rob1 | the competition could just be a way of promoting the feedback system | 12:51 |
| rob1 | cool | 12:51 |
| mdke | i am not sure I like the idea of a competition | 12:52 |
| mdke | i prefer rolling feedback initiatives | 12:52 |
| mdke | but I dunno | 12:52 |
| rob1 | check the page now.. | 12:54 |
| rob1 | does that sound better? | 12:54 |
| === mdke nods | ||
| mdke | send it out for discussion on the ML | 12:55 |
| rob1 | ok | 12:55 |
| rob1 | one question, should we limit the actual competition part of it to the desktop guide? | 12:56 |
| manicka | sorry, I've come in late.... which page? | 12:56 |
| mdke | it depends on the state of the documents | 12:56 |
| rob1 | manicka, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas | 12:56 |
| manicka | thanks | 12:56 |
| rob1 | well I have pretty much settled on the layout of the desktop guide, just need to work out that final olink issue | 12:57 |
| rob1 | although that will only affect the release mainly | 12:57 |
| mdke | cool | 12:57 |
| mdke | i will probably start removing "how do I" soon :) | 12:57 |
| rob1 | the guide should validate ok, just olinkdb.xml won't at this stage | 12:58 |
| mdke | rob1, the problem is, how can we validate the whole guide? | 12:58 |
| mdke | i liked it as one page :) | 12:58 |
| rob1 | I'm pretty sure all the individual pages validate ok by themselves too | 12:58 |
| rob1 | mdke, just validate desktopguide.xml | 12:59 |
| rob1 | (I think) | 12:59 |
| rob1 | or just validate as you go | 12:59 |
| mdke | rob1, didn't we have this discussion before, and we discovered that it only validates the individual file | 12:59 |
| mdke | or did that only apply to the entities | 12:59 |
| rob1 | probably, but at least you get the right error line | 12:59 |
| rob1 | entites were different, they were included as is | 01:00 |
| rob1 | xincludes are more intelligent, they are individual documents in their own right | 01:00 |
| mdke | i seem to remember us coming to the conclusion that it only validated one file | 01:00 |
| rob1 | most likely | 01:00 |
| rob1 | hang on I'll check it | 01:00 |
| mdke | don't worry about it | 01:01 |
| mdke | the other thing I'm concerned about is the complexity of the Makefile, i dunno if it is possible to make that simpler | 01:01 |
| rob1 | mdke, no by validating desktopguide.xml you validate the whole thing | 01:01 |
| mdke | wicked | 01:02 |
| mdke | must have just been entities that don't get validated then | 01:02 |
| rob1 | and when you do, it give you the xml file that the error is in including which line in that file | 01:02 |
| mdke | good | 01:03 |
| rob1 | yes, entities are like variables, xincludes are like classes | 01:03 |
| rob1 | (in programming lingo) | 01:03 |
| rob1 | or in other words, entities are included as is, xincludes are used but treated separate | 01:04 |
| rob1 | and can have their own variables etc | 01:06 |
| mdke | yep | 01:07 |
| mdke | rob1, can the processing instructions in the makefile be simplified? | 01:08 |
| rob1 | mdke, yes, check out the testing makefile I have in the desktopguide/C/ direcotry (called mk) | 01:08 |
| rob1 | with a bit of shell scripting I might even be able to get it simpler still | 01:09 |
| mdke | that is quite good | 01:09 |
| mdke | if we had one of each of those in each language directory | 01:09 |
| mdke | the generic makefile could call each one | 01:09 |
| mdke | as necessary | 01:09 |
| rob1 | yep | 01:09 |
| mdke | that way we wouldn't have to change the address for each entry in the generic makefile | 01:09 |
| mdke | that would be great | 01:10 |
| rob1 | and it would be much less clogged | 01:10 |
| mdke | yeah defo | 01:10 |
| mdke | you can eliminate the /usr/share/ bollocks by setting a variable i think, like in the ubuntu/Makefile | 01:10 |
| rob1 | yeah | 01:10 |
| mdke | great work dude, that has made me happy | 01:11 |
| rob1 | cool, glad to be of service :) | 01:11 |
| mdke | :) | 01:11 |
| Burglaptop | Madpilot, ping | 01:16 |
| Madpilot | Burglaptop: hi | 01:16 |
| Liz | whats with this ping thing? | 01:17 |
| Burglaptop | Madpilot, I will not be coming over this evening. Going to spend the night with C | 01:18 |
| Burglaptop | Liz, if you are looking for someone, you ping them | 01:18 |
| Burglaptop | Liz, if they are there, they pong back, ala the program ping | 01:18 |
| Liz | so you arent actually 'pinging' them then | 01:19 |
| Liz | its just a way to get attention | 01:19 |
| rob1 | umm no not using icmp | 01:19 |
| Burglaptop | yes | 01:19 |
| Liz | ok..fair enough | 01:19 |
| Madpilot | Burglaptop: OK - see you next week sometime, then | 01:20 |
| Burglaptop | Madpilot, sounds good | 01:20 |
| rob1 | sent a quick email to the list | 01:29 |
| mdke | cool | 01:32 |
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| mdke | any kubuntu docteam people around? | 03:10 |
| === rob1 wonders if that email got through | ||
| mdke | sure it did | 03:41 |
| rob1 | hmm my email must be playing up then | 03:42 |
| mdke | the one with the competition? | 03:42 |
| rob1 | yeash | 03:42 |
| rob1 | umm yeah | 03:42 |
| mdke | http://help.ubuntu.com <- about kubuntu :D | 03:45 |
| rob1 | looks very kubuntu-ish | 03:46 |
| rob1 | no colours though | 03:46 |
| mdke | i used the kde css | 03:47 |
| rob1 | are there suppose to be? | 03:47 |
| mdke | sort of grey and light blue | 03:47 |
| mdke | works here | 03:47 |
| rob1 | only the text is coloured | 03:47 |
| mdke | ? | 03:48 |
| mdke | text should be black | 03:48 |
| mdke | headings grey, links light blue | 03:48 |
| rob1 | headings are gray, links blue | 03:48 |
| rob1 | and the text is whatever font | 03:49 |
| mdke | ok so that is how it should be | 03:49 |
| rob1 | no kubuntu logo? | 03:49 |
| mdke | i don't think there is one in the document | 03:49 |
| rob1 | ah | 03:49 |
| mdke | bed time | 03:58 |
| Madpilot | there's still a CSS error in both doc.u.c and help.u.c - the header graphic doesn't got right to the top & sides of the page in Opera... | 04:01 |
| rob1 | night mdke | 04:04 |
| rob1 | same in ff | 04:05 |
| Madpilot | really? they both look OK in FF for me | 04:07 |
| Madpilot | I haven't bothered viewing source, but I'm willing to bet that adding padding:0;margin:0 to the body tag would solve the problem | 04:07 |
| rob1 | its about a mm off on the left side | 04:08 |
| Madpilot | yeah, you're right... odd error | 04:09 |
| rob1 | blah I have cat5 all over the place | 04:14 |
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| Burglaptop | rob1, you should be rob1@ubuntu.com | 07:42 |
| rob1 | I would think so, yes | 07:42 |
| rob1 | brb | 07:45 |
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| rob1 | Burglaptop, how did you go with that email? | 07:49 |
| Burglaptop | just sent it | 07:51 |
| rob1 | I'm assuming it is forward to whatever is my email address in launchpad? | 07:51 |
| Burglaptop | just bounced | 07:51 |
| Burglaptop | yes | 07:51 |
| Burglaptop | oh wait, doh | 07:52 |
| rob1 | ah I got the one from you just then | 07:53 |
| rob1 | looks like I can't email myself however, but at least I know it works now, thanks :) | 07:53 |
| Burglaptop | yes, emailing yourself causes real problems | 07:54 |
| Burglaptop | apparently the ubuntu mail server doesn't like it | 07:54 |
| rob1 | oh | 07:56 |
| Madpilot | gah... Stephen Hermann's blog is repeating itself to planet.u.c again... old posts being reposted | 08:07 |
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| mdke | morning all | 12:27 |
| mdke | Madpilot, that's been going on for months, it's super annoying | 12:29 |
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| highvoltage | ugh. the wiki is painfully slow again. | 01:44 |
| mdke | :) | 01:46 |
| mdke | good old wiki | 01:47 |
| highvoltage | :) | 01:47 |
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| === Burgundavia boggles at the people in his lug who cannot understand why one would need a default distro for an installfest | ||
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| Burgundavia | grrr | 11:01 |
| Burgundavia | how do I tell OOo not to auto link my bloody email/urls? | 11:01 |
| HrdwrBoB | I think it's under autocorrect | 11:03 |
| Burgundavia | holy crap there are a lot of useless options under Tools | 11:05 |
| Burgundavia | like, Use OpenGL and how many undo functions to remember | 11:05 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot, ping | 11:18 |
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| Burgundavia | salut encore, kapputu | 11:24 |
| kapputu | hi Burgundavia | 11:24 |
| Burgundavia | you are interested in helping Ubuntu? | 11:25 |
| kapputu | salut is French? | 11:25 |
| kapputu | yes | 11:25 |
| kapputu | very much | 11:25 |
| mdke | hello again kapputu :) | 11:25 |
| kapputu | hi mdke | 11:25 |
| kapputu | I have not been involved in any open-source project before | 11:25 |
| kapputu | if there is something I need to read up on, I can do that | 11:26 |
| Burgundavia | not really | 11:26 |
| Burgundavia | the biggest thing you need to be aware of of is how to work as a team, which some of us (including myself) fail at occasionaly | 11:26 |
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| kapputu | ok | 11:27 |
| mdke | hehe | 11:27 |
| mdke | surely not | 11:27 |
| Burgundavia | remember that any text based medium is hard to convey lots of meaning, so misunderstandings can happen | 11:27 |
| kapputu | I feel I'm quite adept at that, but hey we surely lose our minds sometime | 11:27 |
| kapputu | yes, it's difficult to convey emotions | 11:27 |
| Burgundavia | what interests you? | 11:28 |
| kapputu | with Ubuntu? | 11:28 |
| Burgundavia | yes, but also with computers generally | 11:28 |
| kapputu | I like Natural Language Processing | 11:30 |
| Burgundavia | have you done much programming before? | 11:31 |
| kapputu | yes, but I have not really learnt a lot | 11:31 |
| Burgundavia | don't worry, I am very much in the same boat | 11:31 |
| kapputu | I have dabbled with different languages | 11:31 |
| Burgundavia | played at all with python? | 11:31 |
| kapputu | I work as a Perl developer | 11:31 |
| Burgundavia | ah | 11:31 |
| Burgundavia | Ubuntu is a little python mad | 11:32 |
| kapputu | yes I bought Learning Python and read a few chapters | 11:32 |
| kapputu | yes that's why I started learning python | 11:32 |
| kapputu | I have been reading and working on it here and there | 11:32 |
| kapputu | I played with Tkinter, wxPython | 11:32 |
| Burgundavia | an interesting project that might need somebody is the server/laptop testing stuff | 11:32 |
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| kapputu | sure, I have a laptop with me and I'm building a spare machine to run a file server for personal use | 11:33 |
| Burgundavia | currently the laptop testing is done by hand and recorded on a wiki page | 11:33 |
| Burgundavia | for starters it would be nice if we could have a webform and database to handle this | 11:34 |
| kapputu | ok | 11:34 |
| Burgundavia | then we could hook up a front end that makes the testing easier | 11:34 |
| jjesse | isn't laptop testing stuff found at LaptopTeam | 11:34 |
| Burgundavia | jjesse, yes it is | 11:34 |
| kapputu | where would it be hosted? | 11:34 |
| Burgundavia | if you wrote something sane, it could easily be hosted on canonical servers | 11:34 |
| Burgundavia | kapputu, where in the world do you live? | 11:34 |
| kapputu | I live in Mountain View, CA | 11:34 |
| kapputu | USA | 11:34 |
| Burgundavia | ah, same timezone as myself | 11:35 |
| Burgundavia | I live in Victoria, Canada | 11:35 |
| kapputu | oh ok | 11:35 |
| kapputu | so the tests are run from the command-line | 11:35 |
| kapputu | and you want a front-end for it? | 11:35 |
| Burgundavia | currently the tests are run by hand | 11:35 |
| Burgundavia | do the keys work, etc. | 11:35 |
| kapputu | ok | 11:35 |
| Burgundavia | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam | 11:36 |
| kapputu | can I see an example of these tests? | 11:36 |
| mdke | lots :) | 11:36 |
| Burgundavia | click on any of the links there | 11:36 |
| Burgundavia | that is the information we need in a good form | 11:36 |
| kapputu | so this information is entered by hand now? | 11:37 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 11:37 |
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| Burgundavia | so bitrot is easy | 11:38 |
| kapputu | bitrot?? | 11:38 |
| Burgundavia | ok, wrong term | 11:38 |
| Burgundavia | lazy contributers is the bigger issue | 11:38 |
| Burgundavia | kapputu, is this somethign that interests you? | 11:38 |
| mdke | really? | 11:38 |
| kapputu | people don't enter the information? | 11:38 |
| Burgundavia | they do, but often they don't keep it up to date | 11:39 |
| mdke | do people with Canonical laptops not keep the pages up to date? | 11:39 |
| Burgundavia | mdke, the canonical people do | 11:39 |
| kapputu | so I'll be developing this in Python and running it on Zope | 11:39 |
| Burgundavia | the non-canonical people are the ones I am thinking of | 11:39 |
| Burgundavia | what ever you like | 11:39 |
| jjesse | hey not all the non-canonical people don't update thier pages :) | 11:39 |
| Burgundavia | ultimately the person you need to laise with Matthew Garret | 11:39 |
| kapputu | what I'm not understanding is what kind of form do you want? | 11:39 |
| Burgundavia | there are two parts as I see it | 11:40 |
| Burgundavia | the first part would be to create a web form with a backend | 11:40 |
| kapputu | so you would want something like "Screen - Ok, Not Ok (radio buttons)"? | 11:40 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 11:40 |
| kapputu | ok | 11:40 |
| kapputu | Bug# would be generated automatically? | 11:40 |
| mdke | no, the user has to file the bug I think | 11:41 |
| Burgundavia | people would still have to file bugs, but that can be worked on later | 11:41 |
| kapputu | how does the database get populated? | 11:41 |
| Burgundavia | people go to the webpage, sign in and enter in their data | 11:41 |
| kapputu | you want to generate a form based on the product? | 11:41 |
| kapputu | or is it a standard form for all laptops? | 11:42 |
| Burgundavia | a standard form for all laptops | 11:42 |
| Burgundavia | there would need to be an area to extend it for special stuff like card readers, etc. | 11:42 |
| mdke | people would also need to be able to update the information easily, for example if a bug was fixed | 11:43 |
| Burgundavia | after the data is entered, Matthew needs to be able to pull it out in a good form, for use in Ubuntu (or any distro) | 11:43 |
| mdke | and ideally, it would have multiple distro version support | 11:43 |
| Burgundavia | yes | 11:43 |
| kapputu | hmm ok | 11:43 |
| mdke | kapputu, however, if you'd prefer to work on docs, we have some of those too ;) | 11:43 |
| kapputu | any cues on what the form should look like etc? | 11:44 |
| Burgundavia | very much like the current wiki form is good for now | 11:44 |
| kapputu | I'm | 11:44 |
| kapputu | oops | 11:44 |
| Burgundavia | if you don't want to do this or don't find it interesting, just ignore me | 11:44 |
| kapputu | no I'm interested | 11:45 |
| Burgundavia | cool | 11:45 |
| kapputu | 1 sec | 11:45 |
| Burgundavia | kapputu, there are some existing pieces you can tie into. Launchpad can handle all the authentication stuff | 11:46 |
| kapputu | I need to know more about Launchpad | 11:47 |
| kapputu | I can do this in Perl if it's needed urgently | 11:47 |
| Burgundavia | #launchpad is you resource for that | 11:47 |
| kapputu | else I can learn Python and do it | 11:47 |
| Burgundavia | kapputu, not needed urgently | 11:47 |
| Burgundavia | and to write it in python makes it far more likely to be persistant | 11:47 |
| Burgundavia | s/is you/is your/ | 11:47 |
| kapputu | is there some documentation on launchpad? | 11:47 |
| Burgundavia | hmm, don;t know | 11:47 |
| kapputu | ok | 11:48 |
| mdke | a bit | 11:48 |
| kapputu | should I work on documenting Launchpad :-) | 11:48 |
| mdke | https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/ | 11:48 |
| kapputu | Zope is the web server that Python uses? | 11:49 |
| Burgundavia | zope is an application server | 11:49 |
| Burgundavia | I am not the best person to ask about this | 11:49 |
| mdke | https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/LaunchpadAuthentication | 11:49 |
| kapputu | so this can be developed on Apache with mod-python? | 11:50 |
| kapputu | sorry if I'm asking silly questions | 11:50 |
| mdke | jjesse, i fixed the stylesheets | 11:50 |
| mdke | kapputu, no idea sorry | 11:50 |
| kapputu | I'm not sure what my development environment should be, for this application | 11:51 |
| Burgundavia | kapputu, talk to siretart about REVU | 11:51 |
| Burgundavia | it is another python app that will need to authenticate against LP | 11:51 |
| Burgundavia | and eventually will be absorbed into LP, just like I imagine this work happening | 11:52 |
| kapputu | hmm ok | 11:53 |
| Burgundavia | I am writing my ideas down now | 11:53 |
| kapputu | so I'll look into LaunchPad and start learning how to do this in Python | 11:54 |
| kapputu | is there any code that I can look at? | 11:55 |
| Burgundavia | for which part? | 11:55 |
| Burgundavia | LP? | 11:55 |
| Burgundavia | sadly LP is currently non-free | 11:55 |
| Burgundavia | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterLaptopTesting | 11:55 |
| kapputu | is there any Python code written for web applications, so that I can get a better understanding? | 11:57 |
| HrdwrBoB | there's a massive lot of python out there | 11:58 |
| Burgundavia | talk with siretart about REVU | 11:58 |
| HrdwrBoB | there's load of tutorials | 11:58 |
| HrdwrBoB | heaps of documentatio | 11:58 |
| HrdwrBoB | n | 11:58 |
| Burgundavia | it is a python based tool for the MOTUS | 11:58 |
| kapputu | HrdwrBoB, tutorials in REVU? | 12:00 |
| HrdwrBoB | possibly not, but python in general | 12:01 |
| kapputu | ok | 12:01 |
| kapputu | Burgundavia, I'll get back to you soon on this | 12:02 |
| kapputu | I'll develop a prototype with Perl and SQLite | 12:03 |
| Burgundavia | kapputu, cool, thanks | 12:03 |
| kapputu | how should I contact you if I don't find you here? | 12:04 |
| mdke | you'll find him :) | 12:04 |
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