[12:27] mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas [12:38] rob1, interesting stuff [12:38] i had in mind not so much a competition as such, but more general feedback initiatives. but the competition idea might work [12:39] also I think we should encourage users to submit what they would like to see answered, not necessarily the answers themselves [12:39] well the competition will get our name and work out there [12:39] but obviously, if they want to, then that is even better [12:39] sure [12:39] i thought we were dropping that "How can I" phraseology? [12:40] yeah [12:40] we should, but it doesn't really look like a question then [12:40] but we can trim that out [12:40] it seemed quite unamimous at the meeting [12:41] how is this different than what is already in place? Aren't people welcome to make patches? [12:41] sure [12:41] LaserJock, yes but they are in xml [12:41] LaserJock, we just want to give people some encouragement [12:41] publicity as it were [12:41] this is for plain english "patches" [12:41] and yes, publicity mainly [12:42] this "credit within the doc" I don't really like [12:42] I don't really like the idea of author attribution at all in fact, i'd rather just "Ubuntu Documentation Team" :) [12:42] well we could just list them on the Credits and Licence page below everything [12:42] ahh, that makes sense. what about something like a "patch of the week" kind of thing posted on the fridge or help.u.c or something [12:43] mdke, yes, but according to the licences we use we need to give some credit back to them [12:43] LaserJock, yeah kind of [12:43] LaserJock, that or one with an ending date [12:44] rob1, you're falling into the same trap as that guy on the mailing list [12:44] the licence defines how people can copy OUR doc, not how we attribute contributions [12:45] mdke, no I'm looking at it as if the submitter is the author, and we are using a derivative of it [12:45] rob1, correct. so the licence that applies is the one that THEY put on their contribution, not our licences [12:45] so we say everything that is submitted is public domain? [12:46] we could. but sadly people like attribution [12:46] including the docteam, hence our licences :( [12:46] I think a lot of people in the community would get a buzz out of having their name in something [12:46] yes [12:46] it is an incentive [12:46] which is kind of the whole thing that spurs this on [12:47] I like the idea of an author list in a comment of the xml file [12:47] unless we list them somewhere on doc.u.c as winners? [12:47] or yes, a comment of them? [12:47] but the comment kind of defeats the point still [12:47] yes [12:48] if you want attribution as part of the incentive, it has to be in the authors and licensing section [12:48] you can seperate acknowledgment on a webpage and authorship in the xml, right? [12:48] i don't have a problem with it on a separate page [12:48] yeah [12:48] given that docteam members are attributed [12:48] one more thing [12:49] that feedback initiative shouldn't only apply to the Ubuntu Desktop Guide [12:49] but to everything [12:49] sure, that page only dealt with the compatition though [12:49] s/compatition/competition === manicka [n=grant@203-217-90-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:50] the other docs could follow in line if we continue it as a feedback only thing after the comp [12:51] the competition could just be a way of promoting the feedback system [12:51] cool [12:52] i am not sure I like the idea of a competition [12:52] i prefer rolling feedback initiatives [12:52] but I dunno [12:54] check the page now.. [12:54] does that sound better? === mdke nods [12:55] send it out for discussion on the ML [12:55] ok [12:56] one question, should we limit the actual competition part of it to the desktop guide? [12:56] sorry, I've come in late.... which page? [12:56] it depends on the state of the documents [12:56] manicka, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas [12:56] thanks [12:57] well I have pretty much settled on the layout of the desktop guide, just need to work out that final olink issue [12:57] although that will only affect the release mainly [12:57] cool [12:57] i will probably start removing "how do I" soon :) [12:58] the guide should validate ok, just olinkdb.xml won't at this stage [12:58] rob1, the problem is, how can we validate the whole guide? [12:58] i liked it as one page :) [12:58] I'm pretty sure all the individual pages validate ok by themselves too [12:59] mdke, just validate desktopguide.xml [12:59] (I think) [12:59] or just validate as you go [12:59] rob1, didn't we have this discussion before, and we discovered that it only validates the individual file [12:59] or did that only apply to the entities [12:59] probably, but at least you get the right error line [01:00] entites were different, they were included as is [01:00] xincludes are more intelligent, they are individual documents in their own right [01:00] i seem to remember us coming to the conclusion that it only validated one file [01:00] most likely [01:00] hang on I'll check it [01:01] don't worry about it [01:01] the other thing I'm concerned about is the complexity of the Makefile, i dunno if it is possible to make that simpler [01:01] mdke, no by validating desktopguide.xml you validate the whole thing [01:02] wicked [01:02] must have just been entities that don't get validated then [01:02] and when you do, it give you the xml file that the error is in including which line in that file [01:03] good [01:03] yes, entities are like variables, xincludes are like classes [01:03] (in programming lingo) [01:04] or in other words, entities are included as is, xincludes are used but treated separate [01:06] and can have their own variables etc [01:07] yep [01:08] rob1, can the processing instructions in the makefile be simplified? [01:08] mdke, yes, check out the testing makefile I have in the desktopguide/C/ direcotry (called mk) [01:09] with a bit of shell scripting I might even be able to get it simpler still [01:09] that is quite good [01:09] if we had one of each of those in each language directory [01:09] the generic makefile could call each one [01:09] as necessary [01:09] yep [01:09] that way we wouldn't have to change the address for each entry in the generic makefile [01:10] that would be great [01:10] and it would be much less clogged [01:10] yeah defo [01:10] you can eliminate the /usr/share/ bollocks by setting a variable i think, like in the ubuntu/Makefile [01:10] yeah [01:11] great work dude, that has made me happy [01:11] cool, glad to be of service :) [01:11] :) [01:16] Madpilot, ping [01:16] Burglaptop: hi [01:17] whats with this ping thing? [01:18] Madpilot, I will not be coming over this evening. Going to spend the night with C [01:18] Liz, if you are looking for someone, you ping them [01:18] Liz, if they are there, they pong back, ala the program ping [01:19] so you arent actually 'pinging' them then [01:19] its just a way to get attention [01:19] umm no not using icmp [01:19] yes [01:19] ok..fair enough [01:20] Burglaptop: OK - see you next week sometime, then [01:20] Madpilot, sounds good [01:29] sent a quick email to the list [01:32] cool === manicka [n=grant@203-217-90-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === manicka [n=grant@203-217-90-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:10] any kubuntu docteam people around? === rob1 wonders if that email got through [03:41] sure it did [03:42] hmm my email must be playing up then [03:42] the one with the competition? [03:42] yeash [03:42] umm yeah [03:45] http://help.ubuntu.com <- about kubuntu :D [03:46] looks very kubuntu-ish [03:46] no colours though [03:47] i used the kde css [03:47] are there suppose to be? [03:47] sort of grey and light blue [03:47] works here [03:47] only the text is coloured [03:48] ? [03:48] text should be black [03:48] headings grey, links light blue [03:48] headings are gray, links blue [03:49] and the text is whatever font [03:49] ok so that is how it should be [03:49] no kubuntu logo? [03:49] i don't think there is one in the document [03:49] ah [03:58] bed time [04:01] there's still a CSS error in both doc.u.c and help.u.c - the header graphic doesn't got right to the top & sides of the page in Opera... [04:04] night mdke [04:05] same in ff [04:07] really? they both look OK in FF for me [04:07] I haven't bothered viewing source, but I'm willing to bet that adding padding:0;margin:0 to the body tag would solve the problem [04:08] its about a mm off on the left side [04:09] yeah, you're right... odd error [04:14] blah I have cat5 all over the place === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=ubuntu@59.92.36.66] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kjcole [n=kjcole@dsl092-145-217.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kjcole [n=kjcole@dsl092-145-217.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Maskie [n=Marius@c1-48-13.wblv.isadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:42] rob1, you should be rob1@ubuntu.com [07:42] I would think so, yes [07:45] brb === rob1 [n=rob@pdpc/supporter/student/rob-ubuntu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:49] Burglaptop, how did you go with that email? [07:51] just sent it [07:51] I'm assuming it is forward to whatever is my email address in launchpad? [07:51] just bounced [07:51] yes [07:52] oh wait, doh [07:53] ah I got the one from you just then [07:53] looks like I can't email myself however, but at least I know it works now, thanks :) [07:54] yes, emailing yourself causes real problems [07:54] apparently the ubuntu mail server doesn't like it [07:56] oh [08:07] gah... Stephen Hermann's blog is repeating itself to planet.u.c again... old posts being reposted === Madpilot [n=bburger@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === joe_alf [n=joe_alf@n219077165193.netvigator.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === joe_alf [n=joe_alf@n219077165193.netvigator.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === manicka-idle [n=grant@203-217-90-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:27] morning all [12:29] Madpilot, that's been going on for months, it's super annoying === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-147.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne|laptop [n=Seb@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne|laptop [n=Seb@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [01:44] ugh. the wiki is painfully slow again. [01:46] :) [01:47] good old wiki [01:47] :) === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Karl@ppp226-53.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@pool-71-251-65-158.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Kinnison [n=dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burglaptop [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === spayne|laptop [n=Seb@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia boggles at the people in his lug who cannot understand why one would need a default distro for an installfest === spayne|laptop [n=Seb@i-195-137-120-148.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:01] grrr [11:01] how do I tell OOo not to auto link my bloody email/urls? [11:03] I think it's under autocorrect [11:05] holy crap there are a lot of useless options under Tools [11:05] like, Use OpenGL and how many undo functions to remember [11:18] Madpilot, ping === kapputu [n=sg47@c-67-188-84-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:24] salut encore, kapputu [11:24] hi Burgundavia [11:25] you are interested in helping Ubuntu? [11:25] salut is French? [11:25] yes [11:25] very much [11:25] hello again kapputu :) [11:25] hi mdke [11:25] I have not been involved in any open-source project before [11:26] if there is something I need to read up on, I can do that [11:26] not really [11:26] the biggest thing you need to be aware of of is how to work as a team, which some of us (including myself) fail at occasionaly === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-11-184.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:27] ok [11:27] hehe [11:27] surely not [11:27] remember that any text based medium is hard to convey lots of meaning, so misunderstandings can happen [11:27] I feel I'm quite adept at that, but hey we surely lose our minds sometime [11:27] yes, it's difficult to convey emotions [11:28] what interests you? [11:28] with Ubuntu? [11:28] yes, but also with computers generally [11:30] I like Natural Language Processing [11:31] have you done much programming before? [11:31] yes, but I have not really learnt a lot [11:31] don't worry, I am very much in the same boat [11:31] I have dabbled with different languages [11:31] played at all with python? [11:31] I work as a Perl developer [11:31] ah [11:32] Ubuntu is a little python mad [11:32] yes I bought Learning Python and read a few chapters [11:32] yes that's why I started learning python [11:32] I have been reading and working on it here and there [11:32] I played with Tkinter, wxPython [11:32] an interesting project that might need somebody is the server/laptop testing stuff === jjesse [i=user@69-87-140-42.async.iserv.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:33] sure, I have a laptop with me and I'm building a spare machine to run a file server for personal use [11:33] currently the laptop testing is done by hand and recorded on a wiki page [11:34] for starters it would be nice if we could have a webform and database to handle this [11:34] ok [11:34] then we could hook up a front end that makes the testing easier [11:34] isn't laptop testing stuff found at LaptopTeam [11:34] jjesse, yes it is [11:34] where would it be hosted? [11:34] if you wrote something sane, it could easily be hosted on canonical servers [11:34] kapputu, where in the world do you live? [11:34] I live in Mountain View, CA [11:34] USA [11:35] ah, same timezone as myself [11:35] I live in Victoria, Canada [11:35] oh ok [11:35] so the tests are run from the command-line [11:35] and you want a front-end for it? [11:35] currently the tests are run by hand [11:35] do the keys work, etc. [11:35] ok [11:36] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam [11:36] can I see an example of these tests? [11:36] lots :) [11:36] click on any of the links there [11:36] that is the information we need in a good form [11:37] so this information is entered by hand now? [11:37] yes === jjesse [i=user@69-87-140-42.async.iserv.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:38] so bitrot is easy [11:38] bitrot?? [11:38] ok, wrong term [11:38] lazy contributers is the bigger issue [11:38] kapputu, is this somethign that interests you? [11:38] really? [11:38] people don't enter the information? [11:39] they do, but often they don't keep it up to date [11:39] do people with Canonical laptops not keep the pages up to date? [11:39] mdke, the canonical people do [11:39] so I'll be developing this in Python and running it on Zope [11:39] the non-canonical people are the ones I am thinking of [11:39] what ever you like [11:39] hey not all the non-canonical people don't update thier pages :) [11:39] ultimately the person you need to laise with Matthew Garret [11:39] what I'm not understanding is what kind of form do you want? [11:40] there are two parts as I see it [11:40] the first part would be to create a web form with a backend [11:40] so you would want something like "Screen - Ok, Not Ok (radio buttons)"? [11:40] yes [11:40] ok [11:40] Bug# would be generated automatically? [11:41] no, the user has to file the bug I think [11:41] people would still have to file bugs, but that can be worked on later [11:41] how does the database get populated? [11:41] people go to the webpage, sign in and enter in their data [11:41] you want to generate a form based on the product? [11:42] or is it a standard form for all laptops? [11:42] a standard form for all laptops [11:42] there would need to be an area to extend it for special stuff like card readers, etc. [11:43] people would also need to be able to update the information easily, for example if a bug was fixed [11:43] after the data is entered, Matthew needs to be able to pull it out in a good form, for use in Ubuntu (or any distro) [11:43] and ideally, it would have multiple distro version support [11:43] yes [11:43] hmm ok [11:43] kapputu, however, if you'd prefer to work on docs, we have some of those too ;) [11:44] any cues on what the form should look like etc? [11:44] very much like the current wiki form is good for now [11:44] I'm [11:44] oops [11:44] if you don't want to do this or don't find it interesting, just ignore me [11:45] no I'm interested [11:45] cool [11:45] 1 sec [11:46] kapputu, there are some existing pieces you can tie into. Launchpad can handle all the authentication stuff [11:47] I need to know more about Launchpad [11:47] I can do this in Perl if it's needed urgently [11:47] #launchpad is you resource for that [11:47] else I can learn Python and do it [11:47] kapputu, not needed urgently [11:47] and to write it in python makes it far more likely to be persistant [11:47] s/is you/is your/ [11:47] is there some documentation on launchpad? [11:47] hmm, don;t know [11:48] ok [11:48] a bit [11:48] should I work on documenting Launchpad :-) [11:48] https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/ [11:49] Zope is the web server that Python uses? [11:49] zope is an application server [11:49] I am not the best person to ask about this [11:49] https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/LaunchpadAuthentication [11:50] so this can be developed on Apache with mod-python? [11:50] sorry if I'm asking silly questions [11:50] jjesse, i fixed the stylesheets [11:50] kapputu, no idea sorry [11:51] I'm not sure what my development environment should be, for this application [11:51] kapputu, talk to siretart about REVU [11:51] it is another python app that will need to authenticate against LP [11:52] and eventually will be absorbed into LP, just like I imagine this work happening [11:53] hmm ok [11:53] I am writing my ideas down now [11:54] so I'll look into LaunchPad and start learning how to do this in Python [11:55] is there any code that I can look at? [11:55] for which part? [11:55] LP? [11:55] sadly LP is currently non-free [11:55] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterLaptopTesting [11:57] is there any Python code written for web applications, so that I can get a better understanding? [11:58] there's a massive lot of python out there [11:58] talk with siretart about REVU [11:58] there's load of tutorials [11:58] heaps of documentatio [11:58] n [11:58] it is a python based tool for the MOTUS [12:00] HrdwrBoB, tutorials in REVU? [12:01] possibly not, but python in general [12:01] ok [12:02] Burgundavia, I'll get back to you soon on this [12:03] I'll develop a prototype with Perl and SQLite [12:03] kapputu, cool, thanks [12:04] how should I contact you if I don't find you here? [12:04] you'll find him :)