[12:27] <rob1> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas
[12:38] <mdke> rob1, interesting stuff
[12:38] <mdke> i had in mind not so much a competition as such, but more general feedback initiatives. but the competition idea might work
[12:39] <mdke> also I think we should encourage users to submit what they would like to see answered, not necessarily the answers themselves
[12:39] <rob1> well the competition will get our name and work out there
[12:39] <mdke> but obviously, if they want to, then that is even better
[12:39] <rob1> sure
[12:39] <mdke> i thought we were dropping that "How can I" phraseology?
[12:40] <rob1> yeah
[12:40] <rob1> we should, but it doesn't really look like a question then
[12:40] <rob1> but we can trim that out
[12:40] <mdke> it seemed quite unamimous at the meeting
[12:41] <LaserJock> how is this different than what is already in place? Aren't people welcome to make patches?
[12:41] <mdke> sure
[12:41] <rob1> LaserJock, yes but they are in xml
[12:41] <mdke> LaserJock, we just want to give people some encouragement
[12:41] <mdke> publicity as it were
[12:41] <rob1> this is for plain english "patches"
[12:41] <rob1> and yes, publicity mainly
[12:42] <mdke> this "credit within the doc" I don't really like
[12:42] <mdke> I don't really like the idea of author attribution at all in fact, i'd rather just "Ubuntu Documentation Team" :)
[12:42] <rob1> well we could just list them on the Credits and Licence page below everything
[12:42] <LaserJock> ahh, that makes sense. what about something like a "patch of the week" kind of thing posted on the fridge or help.u.c or something
[12:43] <rob1> mdke, yes, but according to the licences we use we need to give some credit back to them
[12:43] <rob1> LaserJock, yeah kind of
[12:43] <rob1> LaserJock, that or one with an ending date
[12:44] <mdke> rob1, you're falling into the same trap as that guy on the mailing list
[12:44] <mdke> the licence defines how people can copy OUR doc, not how we attribute contributions
[12:45] <rob1> mdke, no I'm looking at it as if the submitter is the author, and we are using a derivative of it
[12:45] <mdke> rob1, correct. so the licence that applies is the one that THEY put on their contribution, not our licences
[12:45] <rob1> so we say everything that is submitted is public domain?
[12:46] <mdke> we could. but sadly people like attribution
[12:46] <mdke> including the docteam, hence our licences :(
[12:46] <rob1> I think a lot of people in the community would get a buzz out of having their name in something
[12:46] <mdke> yes
[12:46] <mdke> it is an incentive
[12:46] <rob1> which is kind of the whole thing that spurs this on
[12:47] <LaserJock> I like the idea of an author list in a comment of the xml file
[12:47] <rob1> unless we list them somewhere on doc.u.c as winners?
[12:47] <rob1> or yes, a comment of them?
[12:47] <rob1> but the comment kind of defeats the point still
[12:47] <mdke> yes
[12:48] <mdke> if you want attribution as part of the incentive, it has to be in the authors and licensing section
[12:48] <LaserJock> you can seperate acknowledgment on a webpage and authorship in the xml, right?
[12:48] <mdke> i don't have a problem with it on a separate page
[12:48] <rob1> yeah 
[12:48] <mdke> given that docteam members are attributed
[12:48] <mdke> one more thing
[12:49] <mdke> that feedback initiative shouldn't only apply to the Ubuntu Desktop Guide
[12:49] <mdke> but to everything
[12:49] <rob1> sure, that page only dealt with the compatition though
[12:49] <rob1> s/compatition/competition
[12:50] <rob1> the other docs could follow in line if we continue it as a feedback only thing after the comp
[12:51] <rob1> the competition could just be a way of promoting the feedback system
[12:51] <rob1> cool
[12:52] <mdke> i am not sure I like the idea of a competition
[12:52] <mdke> i prefer rolling feedback initiatives
[12:52] <mdke> but I dunno
[12:54] <rob1> check the page now..
[12:54] <rob1> does that sound better?
[12:55] <mdke> send it out for discussion on the ML
[12:55] <rob1> ok
[12:56] <rob1> one question, should we limit the actual competition part of it to the desktop guide?
[12:56] <manicka> sorry, I've come in late.... which page?
[12:56] <mdke> it depends on the state of the documents
[12:56] <rob1> manicka, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamCompIdeas
[12:56] <manicka> thanks
[12:57] <rob1> well I have pretty much settled on the layout of the desktop guide, just need to work out that final olink issue
[12:57] <rob1> although that will only affect the release mainly
[12:57] <mdke> cool
[12:57] <mdke> i will probably start removing "how do I" soon :)
[12:58] <rob1> the guide should validate ok, just olinkdb.xml won't at this stage
[12:58] <mdke> rob1, the problem is, how can we validate the whole guide?
[12:58] <mdke> i liked it as one page :)
[12:58] <rob1> I'm pretty sure all the individual pages validate ok by themselves too
[12:59] <rob1> mdke, just validate desktopguide.xml
[12:59] <rob1> (I think)
[12:59] <rob1> or just validate as you go
[12:59] <mdke> rob1, didn't we have this discussion before, and we discovered that it only validates the individual file
[12:59] <mdke> or did that only apply to the entities
[12:59] <rob1> probably, but at least you get the right error line
[01:00] <rob1> entites were different, they were included as is
[01:00] <rob1> xincludes are more intelligent, they are individual documents in their own right
[01:00] <mdke> i seem to remember us coming to the conclusion that it only validated one file
[01:00] <rob1> most likely
[01:00] <rob1> hang on I'll check it
[01:01] <mdke> don't worry about it
[01:01] <mdke> the other thing I'm concerned about is the complexity of the Makefile, i dunno if it is possible to make that simpler
[01:01] <rob1> mdke, no by validating desktopguide.xml you validate the whole thing
[01:02] <mdke> wicked
[01:02] <mdke> must have just been entities that don't get validated then
[01:02] <rob1> and when you do, it give you the xml file that the error is in including which line in that file
[01:03] <mdke> good
[01:03] <rob1> yes, entities are like variables, xincludes are like classes
[01:03] <rob1> (in programming lingo)
[01:04] <rob1> or in other words, entities are included as is, xincludes are used but treated separate
[01:06] <rob1> and can have their own variables etc
[01:07] <mdke> yep
[01:08] <mdke> rob1, can the processing instructions in the makefile be simplified?
[01:08] <rob1> mdke, yes, check out the testing makefile I have in the desktopguide/C/ direcotry (called mk)
[01:09] <rob1> with a bit of shell scripting I might even be able to get it simpler still
[01:09] <mdke> that is quite good
[01:09] <mdke> if we had one of each of those in each language directory
[01:09] <mdke> the generic makefile could call each one
[01:09] <mdke> as necessary
[01:09] <rob1> yep
[01:09] <mdke> that way we wouldn't have to change the address for each entry in the generic makefile
[01:10] <mdke> that would be great
[01:10] <rob1> and it would be much less clogged
[01:10] <mdke> yeah defo
[01:10] <mdke> you can eliminate the /usr/share/ bollocks by setting a variable i think, like in the ubuntu/Makefile
[01:10] <rob1> yeah
[01:11] <mdke> great work dude, that has made me happy
[01:11] <rob1> cool, glad to be of service :)
[01:11] <mdke> :)
[01:16] <Burglaptop> Madpilot, ping
[01:16] <Madpilot> Burglaptop: hi
[01:17] <Liz> whats with this ping thing?
[01:18] <Burglaptop> Madpilot, I will not be coming over this evening. Going to spend the night with C
[01:18] <Burglaptop> Liz, if you are looking for someone, you ping them
[01:18] <Burglaptop> Liz, if they are there, they pong back, ala the program ping
[01:19] <Liz> so you arent actually 'pinging' them then
[01:19] <Liz> its just a way to get attention
[01:19] <rob1> umm no not using icmp
[01:19] <Burglaptop> yes
[01:19] <Liz> ok..fair enough
[01:20] <Madpilot> Burglaptop: OK - see you next week sometime, then
[01:20] <Burglaptop> Madpilot, sounds good
[01:29] <rob1> sent a quick email to the list
[01:32] <mdke> cool
[03:10] <mdke> any kubuntu docteam people around?
[03:41] <mdke> sure it did
[03:42] <rob1> hmm my email must be playing up then
[03:42] <mdke> the one with the competition?
[03:42] <rob1> yeash
[03:42] <rob1> umm yeah
[03:45] <mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com <- about kubuntu :D
[03:46] <rob1> looks very kubuntu-ish
[03:46] <rob1> no colours though
[03:47] <mdke> i used the kde css
[03:47] <rob1> are there suppose to be?
[03:47] <mdke> sort of grey and light blue
[03:47] <mdke> works here
[03:47] <rob1> only the text is coloured
[03:48] <mdke> ?
[03:48] <mdke> text should be black
[03:48] <mdke> headings grey, links light blue
[03:48] <rob1> headings are gray, links blue
[03:49] <rob1> and the text is whatever font
[03:49] <mdke> ok so that is how it should be
[03:49] <rob1> no kubuntu logo?
[03:49] <mdke> i don't think there is one in the document
[03:49] <rob1> ah
[03:58] <mdke> bed time
[04:01] <Madpilot> there's still a CSS error in both doc.u.c and help.u.c - the header graphic doesn't got right to the top & sides of the page in Opera...
[04:04] <rob1> night mdke 
[04:05] <rob1> same in ff
[04:07] <Madpilot> really? they both look OK in FF for me
[04:07] <Madpilot> I haven't bothered viewing source, but I'm willing to bet that adding padding:0;margin:0 to the body tag would solve the problem
[04:08] <rob1> its about a mm off on the left side
[04:09] <Madpilot> yeah, you're right... odd error
[04:14] <rob1> blah I have cat5 all over the place
[07:42] <Burglaptop> rob1, you should be rob1@ubuntu.com
[07:42] <rob1> I would think so, yes
[07:45] <rob1> brb
[07:49] <rob1> Burglaptop, how did you go with that email?
[07:51] <Burglaptop> just sent it
[07:51] <rob1> I'm assuming it is forward to whatever is my email address in launchpad?
[07:51] <Burglaptop> just bounced
[07:51] <Burglaptop> yes
[07:52] <Burglaptop> oh wait, doh
[07:53] <rob1> ah I got the one from you just then
[07:53] <rob1> looks like I can't email myself however, but at least I know it works now, thanks :)
[07:54] <Burglaptop> yes, emailing yourself causes real problems
[07:54] <Burglaptop> apparently the ubuntu mail server doesn't like it
[07:56] <rob1> oh
[08:07] <Madpilot> gah... Stephen Hermann's blog is repeating itself to planet.u.c again... old posts being reposted
[12:27] <mdke> morning all
[12:29] <mdke> Madpilot, that's been going on for months, it's super annoying
[01:44] <highvoltage> ugh. the wiki is painfully slow again.
[01:46] <mdke> :)
[01:47] <mdke> good old wiki
[01:47] <highvoltage> :)
[11:01] <Burgundavia> grrr
[11:01] <Burgundavia> how do I tell OOo not to auto link my bloody email/urls?
[11:03] <HrdwrBoB> I think it's under autocorrect
[11:05] <Burgundavia> holy crap there are a lot of useless options under Tools
[11:05] <Burgundavia> like, Use OpenGL and how many undo functions to remember
[11:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, ping
[11:24] <Burgundavia> salut encore, kapputu 
[11:24] <kapputu> hi Burgundavia 
[11:25] <Burgundavia> you are interested in helping Ubuntu?
[11:25] <kapputu> salut is French?
[11:25] <kapputu> yes 
[11:25] <kapputu> very much 
[11:25] <mdke>  hello again kapputu :)
[11:25] <kapputu> hi mdke
[11:25] <kapputu> I have not been involved in any open-source project before 
[11:26] <kapputu> if there is something I need to read up on, I can do that 
[11:26] <Burgundavia> not really
[11:26] <Burgundavia> the biggest thing you need to be aware of of is how to work as a team, which some of us (including myself) fail at occasionaly
[11:27] <kapputu> ok 
[11:27] <mdke> hehe
[11:27] <mdke> surely not
[11:27] <Burgundavia> remember that any text based medium is hard to convey lots of meaning, so misunderstandings can happen
[11:27] <kapputu> I feel I'm quite adept at that, but hey we surely lose our minds sometime
[11:27] <kapputu> yes, it's difficult to convey emotions 
[11:28] <Burgundavia> what interests you?
[11:28] <kapputu> with Ubuntu?
[11:28] <Burgundavia> yes, but also with computers generally
[11:30] <kapputu> I like Natural Language Processing 
[11:31] <Burgundavia> have you done much programming before?
[11:31] <kapputu> yes, but I have not really learnt a lot 
[11:31] <Burgundavia> don't worry, I am very much in the same boat
[11:31] <kapputu> I have dabbled with different languages 
[11:31] <Burgundavia> played at all with python?
[11:31] <kapputu> I work as a Perl developer 
[11:31] <Burgundavia> ah
[11:32] <Burgundavia> Ubuntu is a little python mad
[11:32] <kapputu> yes I bought Learning Python and read a few chapters
[11:32] <kapputu> yes that's why I started learning python
[11:32] <kapputu> I have been reading and working on it here and there 
[11:32] <kapputu> I played with Tkinter, wxPython 
[11:32] <Burgundavia> an interesting project that might need somebody is the server/laptop testing stuff
[11:33] <kapputu> sure, I have a laptop with me and I'm building a spare machine to run a file server for personal use 
[11:33] <Burgundavia> currently the laptop testing is done by hand and recorded on a wiki page
[11:34] <Burgundavia> for starters it would be nice if we could have a webform and database to handle this
[11:34] <kapputu> ok
[11:34] <Burgundavia> then we could hook up a front end that makes the testing easier
[11:34] <jjesse> isn't laptop testing stuff found at LaptopTeam
[11:34] <Burgundavia> jjesse, yes it is
[11:34] <kapputu> where would it be hosted?
[11:34] <Burgundavia> if you wrote something sane, it could easily be hosted on canonical servers
[11:34] <Burgundavia> kapputu, where in the world do you live?
[11:34] <kapputu> I live in Mountain View, CA
[11:34] <kapputu> USA
[11:35] <Burgundavia> ah, same timezone as myself
[11:35] <Burgundavia> I live in Victoria, Canada
[11:35] <kapputu> oh ok 
[11:35] <kapputu> so the tests are run from the command-line 
[11:35] <kapputu> and you want a front-end for it?
[11:35] <Burgundavia> currently the tests are run by hand
[11:35] <Burgundavia> do the keys work, etc.
[11:35] <kapputu> ok
[11:36] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
[11:36] <kapputu> can I see an example of these tests?
[11:36] <mdke> lots :)
[11:36] <Burgundavia> click on any of the links there
[11:36] <Burgundavia> that is the information we need in a good form
[11:37] <kapputu> so this information is entered by hand now?
[11:37] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:38] <Burgundavia> so bitrot is easy
[11:38] <kapputu> bitrot??
[11:38] <Burgundavia> ok, wrong term
[11:38] <Burgundavia> lazy contributers is the bigger issue
[11:38] <Burgundavia> kapputu, is this somethign that interests you?
[11:38] <mdke> really?
[11:38] <kapputu> people don't enter the information?
[11:39] <Burgundavia> they do, but often they don't keep it up to date
[11:39] <mdke> do people with Canonical laptops not keep the pages up to date?
[11:39] <Burgundavia> mdke, the canonical people do
[11:39] <kapputu> so I'll be developing this in Python and running it on Zope
[11:39] <Burgundavia> the non-canonical people are the ones I am thinking of
[11:39] <Burgundavia> what ever you like
[11:39] <jjesse> hey  not all the non-canonical people don't update thier pages :)
[11:39] <Burgundavia> ultimately the person you need to laise with Matthew Garret
[11:39] <kapputu> what I'm not understanding is what kind of form do you want?
[11:40] <Burgundavia> there are two parts as I see it
[11:40] <Burgundavia> the first part would be to create a web form with a backend
[11:40] <kapputu> so you would want something like "Screen - Ok, Not Ok (radio buttons)"?
[11:40] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:40] <kapputu> ok 
[11:40] <kapputu> Bug# would be generated automatically?
[11:41] <mdke> no, the user has to file the bug I think
[11:41] <Burgundavia> people would still have to file bugs, but that can be worked on later
[11:41] <kapputu> how does the database get populated?
[11:41] <Burgundavia> people go to the webpage, sign in and enter in their data
[11:41] <kapputu> you want to generate a form based on the product?
[11:42] <kapputu> or is it a standard form for all laptops?
[11:42] <Burgundavia> a standard form for all laptops
[11:42] <Burgundavia> there would need to be an area to extend it for special stuff like card readers, etc.
[11:43] <mdke> people would also need to be able to update the information easily, for example if a bug was fixed
[11:43] <Burgundavia> after the data is entered, Matthew needs to be able to pull it out in a good form, for use in Ubuntu (or any distro)
[11:43] <mdke> and ideally, it would have multiple distro version support
[11:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:43] <kapputu> hmm ok 
[11:43] <mdke> kapputu, however, if you'd prefer to work on docs, we have some of those too ;)
[11:44] <kapputu> any cues on what the form should look like etc?
[11:44] <Burgundavia> very much like the current wiki form is good for now
[11:44] <kapputu> I'm 
[11:44] <kapputu> oops
[11:44] <Burgundavia> if you don't want to do this or don't find it interesting, just ignore me
[11:45] <kapputu> no I'm interested 
[11:45] <Burgundavia> cool
[11:45] <kapputu> 1 sec 
[11:46] <Burgundavia> kapputu, there are some existing pieces you can tie into. Launchpad can handle all the authentication stuff
[11:47] <kapputu> I need to know more about Launchpad 
[11:47] <kapputu> I can do this in Perl if it's needed urgently 
[11:47] <Burgundavia> #launchpad is you resource for that
[11:47] <kapputu> else I can learn Python and do it 
[11:47] <Burgundavia> kapputu, not needed urgently
[11:47] <Burgundavia> and to write it in python makes it far more likely to be persistant
[11:47] <Burgundavia> s/is you/is your/
[11:47] <kapputu> is there some documentation on launchpad?
[11:47] <Burgundavia> hmm, don;t know
[11:48] <kapputu> ok 
[11:48] <mdke> a bit
[11:48] <kapputu> should I work on documenting Launchpad :-)
[11:48] <mdke> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/
[11:49] <kapputu> Zope is the web server that Python uses?
[11:49] <Burgundavia> zope is an application server
[11:49] <Burgundavia> I am not the best person to ask about this
[11:49] <mdke> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/LaunchpadAuthentication
[11:50] <kapputu> so this can be developed on Apache with mod-python?
[11:50] <kapputu> sorry if I'm asking silly questions
[11:50] <mdke> jjesse, i fixed the stylesheets
[11:50] <mdke> kapputu, no idea sorry
[11:51] <kapputu> I'm not sure what my development environment should be, for this application
[11:51] <Burgundavia> kapputu, talk to siretart about REVU
[11:51] <Burgundavia> it is another python app that will need to authenticate against LP
[11:52] <Burgundavia> and eventually will be absorbed into LP, just like I imagine this work happening
[11:53] <kapputu> hmm ok 
[11:53] <Burgundavia> I am writing my ideas down now
[11:54] <kapputu> so I'll look into LaunchPad and start learning how to do this in Python 
[11:55] <kapputu> is there any code that I can look at?
[11:55] <Burgundavia> for which part?
[11:55] <Burgundavia> LP?
[11:55] <Burgundavia> sadly LP is currently non-free
[11:55] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterLaptopTesting
[11:57] <kapputu> is there any Python code written for web applications, so that I can get a better understanding?
[11:58] <HrdwrBoB> there's a massive lot of python out there
[11:58] <Burgundavia> talk with siretart about REVU
[11:58] <HrdwrBoB> there's load of tutorials
[11:58] <HrdwrBoB> heaps of documentatio
[11:58] <HrdwrBoB> n
[11:58] <Burgundavia> it is a python based tool for the MOTUS
[12:00] <kapputu> HrdwrBoB, tutorials in REVU?
[12:01] <HrdwrBoB> possibly not, but python in general
[12:01] <kapputu> ok
[12:02] <kapputu> Burgundavia, I'll get back to you soon on this 
[12:03] <kapputu> I'll develop a prototype with Perl and SQLite 
[12:03] <Burgundavia> kapputu, cool, thanks
[12:04] <kapputu> how should I contact you if I don't find you here?
[12:04] <mdke> you'll find him :)