[12:03] <slomo> BenC: you can get an updated libraw1394 here: http://slomosnail.de/~slomo/temp/
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[12:16] <sladen> does anyone have access to wiki backups from 2 weeks ago (or shell access to the webserver)
[12:17] <sladen> trying to get back the laptoptestingtemplate that somebody deleted and then overwrote
[12:18] <Riddell> whiprush_: for fridge's in the news section http://business.bostonherald.com/technologyNews/view.bg?articleid=112160&format=text
[12:18] <mdke> sladen, henrik has access to them. failing that, the admins
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[12:19] <whiprush_> Riddell: on it!
[12:20] <mdke> whiprush is a fridge machine
[12:20] <Riddell> whiprush_: also Kubuntu came third here if you havn't seen it http://www.linux-community.de/Neues/story?storyid=18337
[12:22] <whiprush_> okey
[12:24] <Riddell> and Mark got the "Outstanding contribution tons of Linux/open SOURCE"
[12:25] <whiprush_> wow, that last link is awesome.
[12:26] <whiprush_> gonna ask silbs about a press release though.
[12:26] <whiprush_> I think they prefer the press release to accompany a story
[12:32] <mvo> whiprush_: thanks for your blog entry on gdebi!
[12:33] <whiprush_> mvo: yeah it's rocking so far, worked on everything but skype, but that's because their .deb depends on something not in the archive anymore.
[12:33] <whiprush_> opera and gizmoproject .debs worked.
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[12:33] <mvo> whiprush_: rock, it figured all the dependencies right and installed them? *nice*
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[12:34] <whiprush_> as far as I can tell
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[12:35] <mvo> whiprush_: well, if the stuff works and neither apt/synaptic/gdebi itself found any incosistencies in the cache it should be fine (gdebi will check the cache before and after the install)
[12:36] <whiprush_> I haven't really put it in a complicated situation yet though.
[12:37] <mvo>  you already tested two debs I haven't tested :) 
[12:37] <whiprush_> maybe I'll post something in the forums, those people are all about third party debs.
[12:38] <neuralis> mvo, gdebi seems like really cool technology, but i really, really hope we never ship with it enabled by default.
[12:38] <mdke> yeah good idea for the forums
[12:38] <mvo> sounds like a good idea, I got a request about a backport of the required changes in python-apt/vte. I will look into this tomorrow
[12:38] <mdke> does it give an error if it can't find the dependencies?
[12:38] <mvo> neuralis: you have security concerns?
[12:39] <whiprush_> for sure it knows if the installed version is newer, which I thought was nice.
[12:39] <mvo> mdke: yes, it will do dependency analyis before the install
[12:39] <mdke> cool
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[12:40] <mvo> mdke: it will never break the apt cache (unless there is a bug in it of course), but it is pretty careful
[12:40] <mdke> sounds good
[12:40] <mdke> if we shipped it by default though, it might encourage people to install packages from outside the distribution and dodgy places like marillat or people's blogs.
[12:40] <neuralis> mvo, yes, very much so. the fact we have such an enormous package repository gives us an amazing way out of the security hell of competing operating systems.
[12:40] <neuralis> mdke, exactly.
[12:41] <mdke> but it is a good tool to have
[12:42] <mvo> people install all kinds of crazy things right now and complain that dpkg -i breaks things
[12:42] <mvo> but I agree that security is a big issue here
[12:42] <neuralis> mvo, it's a great tool, i just think it should not even be considered for shipping with a default install. mentioning it on the wiki means those users who care can find it easily, but those users who are tempted to just download a deb and double-click it don't get pwned.
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[12:46] <mvo> neuralis: I see your point. one issue we have is that we can't ship/distribute all software (think of skype or opera). shouldn't we offer it to users then to make the install of those easy?
[12:46] <mdke> it's a difficult problem
[12:46] <mdke> how to give users choice, and prevent them from breaking their systems?
[12:47] <mdke> the age old problem ;)
[12:47] <mvo> yeah :)
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[12:50] <neuralis> mvo, it's a cost/benefit thing. gracefully handling the special cases (skype, opera, etc) is not worth directly sacrificing this phenomenal advantage we have with being able to keep users' systems secure.
[12:51] <neuralis> mvo, i agree we should find a good solution for the most common special cases - but i think we should never consider making a double-click deb install a reality.
[12:52] <dholbach> users will always install the latest crack, i think it's rather a matter of "raising awareness" instead of "making it harder for them to 'do it'"
[12:54] <mvo> neuralis: it will never be a simple double click, they will always have to enter their password and confirm the install with clicking on "Install"
[12:55] <mdke> dholbach, totally agree
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[12:56] <mvo> but yeah, we shouldn't make it too easy
[12:56] <magnon> daniel!
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[12:56] <magnon> hey
[12:56] <daniels> 'morning dholbach
[12:57] <dholbach_> hey daniels, magnon :)
[12:58] <magnon> hello other daniel as well
[12:58] <dholbach_> :)
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[12:59] <devint> Is it just me who's saying this, or is the i386 version of Ubuntu much more polished than the amd64 version?
[12:59] <HrdwrBoB> no
[12:59] <HrdwrBoB> it's the same
[12:59] <devint> you would think so right?
[01:00] <devint> however, i had several problems with the amd64 version, but the i386 -- everything works, it even detected my monitors maximum resolution correctly
[01:00] <daniels> yes, resolution detection doesn't work properly on amd64 yet
[01:00] <daniels> but, ironically, laptops are better supported
[01:01] <devint> my network card works, when in amd64 it doesn't, the lilo install procedure works in debian-installer, when in amd64 it doesn't...just more polished, i must say
[01:01] <HrdwrBoB> why are you using lilo
[01:01] <devint> because grub takes over 2 minutes to get to the grub menu when you have both a SCSI hdd and IDE hdd installed
[01:01] <devint> very annoying
[01:02] <devint> and inescapable, i might add
[01:03] <daniels> works fine for me, with sata and ide.  but this is a #ubuntu question rather than #ubuntu-devel.
[01:04] <devint> that's assuming there's a workaround, correct?
[01:05] <devint> because if the installer program doesn't recognize this by default, then it is most certainly an #ubuntu-devel question
[01:05] <daniels> that's what it did out of the box; bug reports are for bugzilla.ubuntu.com, support questions are for #ubuntu, #ubuntu-devel is just for specific, detailed, development discussion
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[01:24] <dholbach> good night
[01:30] <mvo> good night
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[02:02] <kbrooks> is making linux distros too easy ... dangerpis?
[02:02] <kbrooks> dangerous
[02:02] <kbrooks> referring to:
[02:03] <wasabi> Yes. Users should not be trusted with computers. Obviously we should institution a world wide computer users licensing system.
[02:03] <kbrooks> 'mvo neuralis: it will never be a simple double click, they will always have to enter their password and confirm the install with clicking on "Install"'
[02:03] <mdke> erm
[02:03] <mdke> wtf
[02:03] <kbrooks> mdke: ?O
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[02:22] <mdz> infinity: ping
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[02:27] <infinity> mdz : pong.
[02:29] <mdz> infinity: good morning.  I wanted to check with you regarding that VGA mode change for usplash etc.
[02:29] <mdz> infinity: do you have those changes somewhere ready to go already?  they should go in quite early
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[02:29] <infinity> mdz : I'll need to shove the vga16fb change into Ben's next kernel upload.
[02:30] <mdz> infinity: oh, it requires kernel changes? hmm
[02:30] <infinity> And since there's another upload right around the corner for other reasons, I think It's reasonable to expect we can do it in a day or two, and get testing/exposure of the new mode by the weekend.
[02:31] <infinity> mdz : Well, it requires changing the default mode for vga16fb, which (unlike other framebuffers) is hardcoded.
[02:32] <mdz> infinity: can't we change the mode at runtime rather than changing the hardcoded default?
[02:33] <infinity> mdz : Not with the driver as it currently stands.
[02:34] <mdz> infinity: so it's not only the default mode, it's the *only* mode? ;-)
[02:35] <infinity> Looks like it, yes.
[02:35] <infinity> It would be reasonably trivial to make the module take arguments, but it certainly doesn't appear to right now.
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[03:21] <tseng> kinky
[03:27] <BenC> mdz: ping
[03:31] <mdz> BenC: pong
[03:32] <BenC> mdz: I want to do something in the BTS to cleanout the old bug reports
[03:32] <BenC> mdz: like mass NEEDSINFO for anything that hasn't had any activity in > 6 months, and give it 2 weeks before I close them
[03:32] <BenC> s/BTS/bugzilla/
[03:33] <mdz> I don't think assuming NEEDINFO in that case is safe
[03:33] <BenC> NEEDSINFO meaning "tell me if it still applies to breezy"
[03:33] <ogra> night all
[03:33] <BenC> with a message in addition to the status change
[03:33] <mdz> ok
[03:34] <mdz> that should be mostly reasonable then
[03:34] <mdz> you should be able to do that with an advanced search + "change several bugs at once"
[03:35] <BenC> yeah, I just want to get it down to something manageable
[03:35] <BenC> I really want a better handle on the bugs for dapper
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[03:44] <mpool> are breezy bugs being filed into malone now?
[03:45] <Riddell> mpool: no, don't think so
[03:46] <mpool> anywhere else?
[03:46] <mpool> or just to the list?
[03:48] <Riddell> bugzilla
[04:03] <mpt> bugzilla until flag day
[04:04] <zakame> flag day?
[04:04] <mpt> A flag day is any day on which there is a large, non-interoperable change from one system or process to another
[04:05] <zakame> ah
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[04:16] <mpool> rather like sweden changing which side of the road they drive on
[04:16] <daniels> not so much a flag day as a sign day in that case
[04:16] <daniels> haw haw
[04:18] <mpool> the very definition of non-interoperable :)
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[04:30] <bmonty_laptop> elmo: are you familiar with the motu-tools that \sh wrote??
[04:32] <Kinnison> Night all
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[04:51] <floam> how long does it usually take something to propagate to apt once it's source has been uploaded?
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[05:21] <spstarr_home> hmm, is there a wiki on how to build the debian/ubuntu installer for dapper? I wanna add FAI support bits
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[05:26] <daniels> the installer bits in dapper currently won't work at all, and dapper is very uninstallable anyway
[05:28] <spstarr_home> hmm
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[05:41] <infinity> daniels : Pessimist.
[05:42] <daniels> infinity: well, noting that d-i's merges aren't done yet, and zlib is allegedly uninstallable, along with other stuff :P
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[05:42] <mae> hrmm
[05:44] <infinity> Picky, picky.
[05:45] <infinity> Ouch, britney is angry.
[05:45] <infinity> Oh, it's not as bad as it looks.
[05:46] <infinity> Mostly libssl fallout.
[05:46] <infinity> And assorted..
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[05:47] <daniels> ... ephemera.
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[05:59] <spstarr_home> well, I got it built, albeit a very rough installer
[06:00] <spstarr_home> (source)
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[06:06] <spstarr_home> haha, the installer won't let me quit :)
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[06:11] <jianggw> what is the difference between ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-motu?
[06:13] <daniels> -devel is for core development stuff, and generally pretty in-depth stuff
[06:13] <daniels> motu will help you get involved and they're much better at showing you the ropes
[06:14] <jianggw> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/teams/ ,why can't I find a team named ubuntu-develop?isn't there such a team? 
[06:17] <crimsun> no, there's no such team.
[06:17] <crimsun> these are better asked in -motu probably
[06:17] <jsgotangco> there's an lp core team though
[06:19] <jianggw> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev ,https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/ ,I find two teams.why not list them in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/teams/ ?
[06:20] <crimsun> jianggw: because those two are more hierarchical than http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/teams/ shows
[06:24] <jianggw> thanks.Is the leader of each team appointed by community council or self-appointed?
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[06:31] <jianggw>  http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3590&d=1132034495 is a structure chart of community drawn by me.Is it correct?Who can help me draw a better and correct one?
[06:48] <jsgotangco> wow an org chart
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[08:47] <marilize> Burgundavia: ping
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[08:49] <Burgundavia> marilize, pong
[08:53] <JaneW> who handles PHP?
[08:54] <marilize> Burgundavia: we can send you CD's without covers.......
[08:56] <Burgundavia> marilize, excellent. It was more a preliminary inquiry. If everything goes to plan, I will need several hundred for the dapper release
[08:59] <infinity> JaneW : I do.
[09:00] <marilize> Burgundavia: thats fine, at least we  know now we can do it..........but when you decide to do it, just give enought time when you order....
[09:01] <Treenaks> morning all
[09:01] <Burgundavia> marilize, if and when it happens, it will be well coordinated with malcolm and yourself
[09:01] <JaneW> infinity: can I forward you an e-mail from a local guy here who sent a warning to all his users claiming PHP etc is all broken in breezy?
[09:01] <marilize> Burgundavia:  great
[09:02] <infinity> JaneW : Uhm, sure.  It's definitely not broken in breezy.
[09:02] <JaneW> infinity: I found the e-mail a bit annoying myself...
[09:03] <infinity> JaneW : I do have a security release to do, if that's what he's referring to, but it's for pretty non-critical stuff.
[09:03] <infinity> (I should still do it rather soon, though)
[09:03] <infinity> JaneW : If he thinks it's broken in other ways, I'd like to know what he's on about.  It works well for thousands of other users.
[09:04] <infinity> JaneW : Wow, okay, that was just nonsensical.
[09:05] <JaneW> infinity: yup
[09:06] <infinity> Would you like me to respond to you, or to whim directly?
[09:06] <infinity> s/whim/him/
[09:06] <Burgundavia> infinity, the jump from php4 to 5, does it break many apps?
[09:07] <infinity> Burgundavia : Pretty much none.
[09:07] <infinity> Burgundavia : There's a very short README in the php5 doc directory about possible upgrade caveats, in practice almost nothing will break.
[09:07] <JaneW> infinity:  feel free to respond to him - cc me though please
[09:08] <Burgundavia> infinity, thanks
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[09:17] <infinity> JaneW : Sent.
[09:21] <JaneW> infinity: thanks
[09:27] <Burgundavia> JaneW, how did planner work out for you?
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[09:28] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync ttf2pt1 from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
[09:28] <JaneW> Burgundavia: busy adding resorces right now, it looks nice, simple and straightforward. Thanks
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[09:42] <tepsipakki> argh, my kernel got the kubuntu usplash-image after upgrading to 2.6.15-2.2 ;)
[09:42] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync ttt from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
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[09:45] <dholbach> good morning
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[09:53] <fabbione> tepsipakki: usplash is not managed by the kernel.
[09:53] <fabbione> blame usplash
[09:56] <siretart> fabbione: hi
[09:56] <siretart> fabbione: do you have a minute?
[09:57] <fabbione> siretart: hi, yeah
[09:57] <siretart> fabbione: it is because of 2 binary packages, which are binary ALL (arch independent), but can only be built on sparc. is there any change to get them into ubuntu?
[09:57] <fabbione> what's up?
[09:57] <siretart> namly proll and openhackware
[09:58] <fabbione> eh?
[09:58] <siretart> yeah, quite annoying
[09:58] <fabbione> arch: all means arch: all
[09:58] <siretart> yes, I know
[09:58] <fabbione> they must be able to build everywhere
[09:58] <fabbione> if they don't it's a bug in the pkg
[09:58] <siretart> but they are not
[09:58] <siretart> I know
[09:58] <siretart> but the debian maintainer disagrees
[09:58] <fabbione> fix the pkg :)
[09:59] <fabbione> who is the debian maintainer?
[09:59] <siretart> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=322300
[09:59] <siretart> I'm searching for proll
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[10:00] <siretart> Maintainer for openhackware is Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org>
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[10:00] <siretart> aah, and the thing about proll is, that it build-depends on sparc-utils, which is sparc only
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[10:01] <tfheen> siretart: the maintainer is wrong in the openhackware case at least.
[10:01] <fabbione> dude...
[10:01] <fabbione> read the stuff again
[10:01] <fabbione> he is talking about ppc
[10:01] <fabbione> a B-D on sparc-utils doesn't make it buildable on sparc
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[10:01] <siretart> oh, I'm sorry, I mixed up ppc and sparc
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[10:02] <fabbione> but clearly the maintainer is utterly wrong
[10:02] <Treenaks> sppcarc ?
[10:02] <siretart> fabbione: but a B-D on sparc-utils guarantees FTBFS on !sparc
[10:02] <fabbione> siretart: how is the B-D specified?
[10:03] <siretart> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/p/proll/18-1/proll_18-1_20050607-1857-i386-failed.gz is the buildlog (short)
[10:03] <fabbione> Build-Depends: sparc-utils [sparc]  ?
[10:03] <siretart> Build-Depends-Indep: debhelper (>= 4.0.0), sparc-utils
[10:04] <fabbione> siretart: in that case only our i386 would fail and you still don't care. it's a ppc only app with buggy pkg.
[10:04] <fabbione> fix the pkg :)
[10:05] <siretart> there are 2 packages. openhackware is ppc, right, I'll look deeper into that
[10:05] <fabbione> siretart: read the last comment from Peter on the bug
[10:05] <siretart> the other one is proll, which Build-Depends-Indep
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=== siretart rereads
[10:06] <siretart> fabbione: yeah, he gives an analysis about the problem
[10:06] <siretart> fabbione: I was rather asking about a short term solution for ubuntu. 
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[10:08] <fabbione> siretart: the correct solution is to make the pkgs Arch: ppc
[10:08] <siretart> the problem here is, that qemu DEPENDS on both packages. I'm currently working around this in degrading the DEPENDS to a Recommends: field
[10:08] <siretart> the Depend makes it obviously uninstallable on ALL arches in ubuntu
[10:09] <siretart> fabbione: that would 'break' qemu
[10:10] <fabbione> oh crack
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[10:10] <siretart> I agree that the correct solution would be to make the pkgs arch dependent, but the maintainers seem to disagree, because they want qemu to work
[10:10] <siretart> morning Michael!
[10:10] <fabbione> hold on
[10:10] <fabbione> you mean qemu Depends: foo
[10:11] <fabbione> where foo is this _all crack package?
[10:11] <siretart> yeah
[10:11] <fabbione> and i assume that package contain real ppc binaries
[10:11] <fabbione> that can only be built on ppc
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[10:11] <mvo> good morning siretart !
[10:12] <siretart> they contain ppc and sparc firmware, AFAIU
[10:12] <siretart> binaries, in fact, yes
[10:12] <fabbione> i miss something here
[10:12] <fabbione> how can he build _all from both sparc AND ppc at the same time
[10:13] <siretart> no
[10:13] <pitti> Kamion: could you please promote the approved stuff on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionQueue to help a couple of FTBFS?
[10:13] <siretart> fabbione: openhackware is about ppc, proll is for sparc
[10:13] <fabbione> ah ok
[10:13] <siretart> both with a bit different, but similar problems
[10:13] <fabbione> so same technique applied to 2 different pkgs
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[10:13] <siretart> fabbione: openhackware only builds on ppc, and proll B-D on a sparc only package
[10:14] <fabbione> insane
[10:14] <siretart> yeah, but I didn't invent that ;)
[10:14] <dholbach> can anybody contact bugzilla?
[10:15] <dholbach> ..ubuntu.com
[10:15] <siretart> it happens to work on debian, because there maintainers are uploading binary packages
[10:15] <fabbione> siretart: i think something like that will require buildd admins to build stuff manually
[10:15] <fabbione> siretart: yes i know
[10:15] <siretart> fabbione: okay, but you are the sparc buildd admin :)
[10:15] <fabbione> siretart: i can probably do the sparc side of it, given that i can upload _all.deb (and i am not even sure)
[10:16] <fabbione> but we need to discuss a more general solution for this
[10:16] <siretart> okay. lets ask infinity then when he arrives
[10:16] <fabbione> yeah
[10:16] <fabbione> i need more coffee in the meanwhile
[10:16] <siretart> same here :)
[10:18] <siretart> dholbach: bugzilla.ubuntu.com works for me [tm] 
[10:18] <dholbach> siretart: now it works for me... only terribly slow ... hrm
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[10:19] <siretart> dholbach: perhaps there are some malone import scripts shaking bugzilla?
[10:20] <dholbach> siretart: no idea... but sounds like the perfect opportunity to take my dog out
[10:21] <siretart> :)
[10:21] <mvo> dholbach: have fun!
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[10:30] <sivang> Good morning all
[10:31] <siretart> hi sivang 
[10:31] <siretart> infinity: around?
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[10:36] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync tzc from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
[10:37] <mvo> infinity: in one of the build-logs (i386) I noticed that lsb_release -i -s seems to have returnd "Debian". is this fixed?
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[10:56] <Mithrandir> Kamion: if you could ping me when you're around and have a little bit of time, I'd be grateful.  I need somebody to bounce cdebconf plugin stuff with.
[10:57] <infinity> mvo : Can you be more specific?
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[10:58] <infinity> siretart : pong if it's something quick, if it's not, mail me.  I'm not actually working right now.
[10:59] <mvo> infinity: I CCed you on a bugreport about the problem (#19632)
[10:59] <siretart> infinity: okay, I'll ping you tomorrow. its not quick and important
[10:59] <mvo> infinity: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/s/synaptic/0.57.5.1ubuntu2/synaptic_0.57.5.1ubuntu2_20051114-1545-i386-successful.gz
[11:00] <mvo> infinity: that is the bit with the "lsb_release" returns "Debian"
[11:00] <infinity> mvo : And how can we tell this from the log? :)
[11:02] <infinity> root@rothera:~# lsb_release -a
[11:02] <infinity> No LSB modules are available.
[11:02] <infinity> Distributor ID: Ubuntu
[11:02] <infinity> Description:    Ubuntu (The Dapper Drake Release) Development Branch
[11:02] <infinity> Release:        6.04
[11:02] <infinity> Codename:       dapper
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[11:02] <infinity> That's the same buildd, same chroot, and same versions of lsb-release as before.
[11:03] <mvo> infinity: hrm ... interessting (telling by looking at the cp 00list.Debian <- that name is derived from lsb_release)
[11:04] <mvo> infinity: hm, same version everything? oh well, I'll dig into it and see if it's not me :/
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[11:05] <infinity> Keep me updated, but I don't see any obvious issues on this side.
[11:06] <dhonn> we should have a bubble tip when you mouse over the gnome-panel.  Something like, right click here for more options
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[11:07] <seb128> elmo: glib2.0 sync please
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[11:13] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync uim ulogd from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
[11:16] <siretart> seb128:  I read debian is going away from shipping schemas in /etc. Will we ubuntus follow that?
[11:17] <seb128> siretart: we already do since hoary
[11:18] <seb128> siretart: ls /usr/share/gconf/schemas/
[11:18] <siretart> seb128: aah, so the remaining cruft in /etc/gconf/schemas is considered as buggy?
[11:19] <seb128> siretart: not really buggy, it doesn't matter
[11:20] <seb128> siretart: /etc/gconf/schemas files are not removed on update because they are conffiles
[11:20] <dholbach> elmo: could you please sync mdbtools from sid, ubuntu override is ok
[11:20] <siretart> seb128: aah, I see. thanks for heads up
[11:20] <seb128> np
[11:20] <seb128> the move is done by dh_gconf
[11:21] <seb128> so it's automatical
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[12:09] <siretart> mdz: acpi-support in breezy Recommends: network-manager, which somewhat breaks automatic installations with universe enabled. Would you accept a package to breezy-updates, which removes the Suggest on 'network-manager'?
=== seb128 guess it's not the right time to get a reply from mdz
[12:10] <siretart> seb128: whats up with him?
[12:11] <seb128> he's like middle of the night for his tz
[12:11] <seb128> s/he/it/
[12:11] <siretart> oh. I see
[12:11] <siretart> which timezone is he?
[12:11] <neuralis> siretart: he's in LA, which is -9 hours from you, i believe
[12:11] <siretart> okay. thanks
[12:14] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync plib from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
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[12:16] <Kamion> pitti: promotions in progress, thanks
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[12:16] <pitti> Kamion: nice; we need to update the wiki, did you promote all?
[12:18] <Kamion> IN PROGRESS :-)
[12:19] <Kamion> I'm updating the wiki as I go
[12:19] <pitti> ah, cool; thanks
[12:22] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync torch3 from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
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[12:24] <Kamion> pitti: ok, all done
[12:26] <JaneW> who handles the menus in ubuntu and more specifically what is displayed in each i.e. app name vs function?
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[12:27] <Nafallo> morning Simira :-)
[12:28] <dholbach> JaneW: it's handled in every software package itself
[12:29] <JaneW> dholbach: I have a specific request to change for instance OOo impress -> Presentation and gedit -> Text Document
[12:29] <Simira> morning
[12:29] <JaneW> dholbach: with edubuntu we previously discussed making the menu entries more descriptive too because the app names are not very clear most of the time.
[12:29] <JaneW> hi Simira 
[12:30] <Kamion> that issue has been discussed back and forward for quite a while ...
[12:30] <dholbach> JaneW: hm, traditionally the entry describes the function of the app, like "text editor" or "web browser"
[12:30] <Simira> marilize: the letter worked out, somewhat. The only ultimate way to avoid the tax problems though, seems to be setting the total value less then 20 regardless of the amount of cd's.
[12:30] <Simira> JaneW: good morning! How are you?
=== mvo waves to the sword-fighting woman
[12:31] <dholbach> JaneW: doko and Mithrandir maintain openoffice, seb128 and i do gedit
[12:32] <seb128_> JaneW: gedit is a texteditor, "Text Editor" is correct, we are not going to change it :)
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[12:32] <Simira> :D mvo: wanna fight? ;)
[12:33] <marilize> Simira: good, I'm glad it worked out :)
[12:33] <Simira> wb JaneW :) How are you?
[12:33] <Simira> marilize: I've written a "howto" for the Norwegians. Want to link to it from Shipit?
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[12:34] <jane_> Kamion: is there any agreement or will the status quo remain?
[12:34] <seb128_> jane_: did you get what I said to JaneW about gedit?
[12:34] <marilize> Simira: great thanx, you can send it...
[12:35] <mvo> Simira: I would love to see a video or a live-demo someday :D
=== doko thinks about putting a g into the OOo package name ...
[12:36] <Simira> mvo: I don't have any of me. there's a couple on http://flammensorden.laiv.org though, by friends of mine.
[12:36] <Simira> marilize: marilize@canonical?
[12:36] <seb128_> doko: I've some menu changes for openoffice
[12:36] <seb128_> doko: let me know when you have planned to do an upload
=== mvo takes a loook
[12:36] <marilize> simira: yes
[12:36] <marilize> .com
[12:37] <Simira> done
[12:37] <dholbach> Simira: good to know that "bilder" is still "bilder" for me :)
[12:37] <JaneW> seb128: no I was disconnected after : Kamion that issue has been discussed back and forward for quite a while ...
[12:37] <JaneW> Simira: I am well thanks and you?
[12:38] <doko> seb128: not before mid december
[12:38] <Kamion> JaneW: it's at least in part a Mark thing
[12:39] <pitti> Kamion: bah, seems that I forgot two small perl libraries to make the po4a chain work
[12:39] <seb128_> doko: k, I'll have to do an upload so
[12:39] <seb128_> doko: should I drop you a patch with my changes or something?
[12:39] <Kamion> pitti: libxml-simple-perl for libparse-debianchangelog-perl
[12:39] <Simira> JaneW: not too bad. Trying to get a lot of work done before the weekend. :-)
[12:39] <Kamion> and libtie-ixhash-perl for that
[12:39] <Simira> dholbach: that's good :-)
[12:39] <pitti> Kamion: right
[12:39] <pitti> Kamion: will do reports for them soon (gtk still needs to build anyway)
[12:40] <Kamion> pitti: and libyaml-perl for libmodule-build-perl too ...
[12:40] <ogra> Kamion, he wanted a drag and drop interface to assemble your own menus at the edubuntu summit ...
[12:40] <doko> seb128: yes, file it as a report
[12:40] <pitti> Kamion: btw, gnutls12 is a no-brainer - just a new version
[12:41] <Kamion> pitti: ok, done
[12:41] <ogra> JaneW, we never talked about renaming the apps, just grouping them different (while i agree that OOo impress should have a more descriptive name)
[12:42] <\sh> re
[12:42] <JaneW> ogra: hi, but I do thing the education menu needs descriptive names too, can we do that?
[12:43] <ogra> JaneW, for the menus, yes, for the apps... i would object ...
[12:44] <seb128_> JaneW: gedit is a texteditor, "Text Editor" is correct, we are not going to change it :)
[12:44] <seb128_> (what I said before)
[12:44] <ogra> there goes his alter ego :)
[12:45] <tseng> i knew there were 2 of him
[12:45] <ogra> heh...
[12:45] <ogra> hi tseng 
[12:45] <JaneW> seb128: yes I just looked at that, not sure what the user's issue is with that...
[12:45] <tseng> hi
[12:46] <JaneW> ogra: I am not sure I follow what you mean?
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[12:46] <\sh> looks like I need another job...to whom I have to send my CV? :)
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[12:46] <ogra> JaneW, we can rename and restructure menus, but not app names ...
[12:47] <JaneW> ogra: sure that's all I want obviously the app name is the app name, but the menu item pointing to it should be descriptive
[12:47] <seb128> there is some menu items that are not optimal and we can work with upstream to get them fixed though
[12:47] <ogra> as we talked... having a task driven menu system for edubuntu with diffrerent profiles for different tasks ... 
[12:47] <JaneW> ideally and providing there's enough space I am all for appname - function e.g. 'KTouch - Typing Tutor' etc
[12:47] <kbrooks> \sh: :)
[12:48] <seb128> JaneW: if you want to read the GNOME policy about this: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/desktop-integration.html#menu-item-names
[12:48] <ogra> JaneW, if we can fix it upstream, thats fine, but i wouldnt start changing names for well known apps, its 1.) confusing and 2.) we could hire someone to just care for these changes all the time, it generates a lot of extra work
[12:48] <JaneW> ogra: I think te menu groupings is another issue, which needs to be resolved too, the descriptions would be global to that and apply no matter what groupings/masks were chosen
[12:49] <JaneW> seb128: thanks
[12:49] <JaneW> ogra: so if I understand it correctly does the upstream decide how it will display in the menu on installation?
[12:49] <seb128> you're welcome
[12:49] <ogra> JaneW, currently menu profiles are easily doable with sabayon (thats its purpose)
=== Nafallo sees the word "hire" ;-)
[12:49] <Kamion> JaneW: at the moment (as I understand it) descriptions of individual menu items are stored in the relevant packages, not centrally (which is a good thing) and changes to them will apply to Ubuntu and Edubuntu so it needs to be carefully coordinated
[12:50] <JaneW> Nafallo: down boy!
[12:50] <ogra> lol
[12:50] <Nafallo> :-)
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[12:50] <Kamion> JaneW: the upstream may or may not ship a .desktop file which includes the menu item name; the packager may override it, at the cost of having to redo all translations
[12:50] <pef> hello
[12:50] <JaneW> Kamion: oic, so if one particular app is confussing consistently we should approach the upstream and request that they make it easier to dechiper.
[12:51] <ogra> exactly
[12:51] <seb128> JaneW, Kamion: the name for a menu item is the "Name=" field of /usr/share/applications/<app>.desktop
[12:51] <JaneW> ok
[12:54] <\sh> Do we have a list of the "official visitors of UBZ" with names and email addresses? I just forgot to ask the impilinux guys for their email addresses
[12:55] <tseng> I bet info@impilinux.co.za works. (http://impilinux.co.za/)
[12:57] <JaneW> \sh: cvd could give it to you
[12:58] <JaneW> \sh: although you may need to pay her, esp if you want to use the list to spam us all ;)
[01:00] <dholbach> that's how ubuntu sustains itself: get mail adresses, sell them to spammers
[01:00] <dholbach> :-p
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[01:01] <ogra> hey, cool idea ... we could make a universe package with addresses ;)
[01:01] <neuralis> dholbach, and the launchpad "confirm email address" feature is just a cog in the conspiracy machine!
[01:01] <dholbach> neuralis: you know it :)
[01:01] <pitti> Kamion: ok, I finished the review and the reports, wiki updated
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[01:07] <Kamion> pitti: promoted, thanks
[01:07] <sivang> ogra: maybe we could hack in a script, that  fetches source packages of pakcages we want to change from a db, scans the desktop files, reaplces the names through a lookup table, repackages the sources, and ready for duploads ? 0:-)
[01:08] <sivang> hrm, s/we/you guys/ ;-)
[01:08] <Kamion> sivang: and automatically translates all the changed names with artificial intelligence?
=== sivang runs aways
[01:08] <sivang> did I say anything ? :)
[01:08] <Mithrandir> grmf.  We hatesss code duplication.
[01:09] <Kamion> oh bugger, I have to update all the *-meta/update scripts
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[01:11] <janimo> Kamion, couldn't those use a common update script somehow, instead of being out of sync w/ eachother?
[01:11] <janimo> build-dep on a package which has update
[01:11] <slomo> elmo: please sync wavpack from debian... ubuntu changes can be dropped
[01:11] <janimo> and only provide the derivative name as a param for it
[01:11] <janimo> or something
[01:13] <Kamion> janimo: I guess it could go in germinate
[01:13] <Kamion> janimo: project for another day, though :)
[01:14] <janimo> Kamion, when you have time to brief or mail me with what it takes for DYO iso building I am all ears :)
[01:14] <Kamion> janimo: did I give you references to the code?
[01:14] <janimo> no
[01:15] <janimo> besides germinate whic I know about
[01:15] <Kamion> ok, install the bazaar package
[01:15] <janimo> not bzr?
[01:15] <Kamion> not yet, no
[01:15] <Kamion> I'll convert at some point
[01:15] <janimo> I have both already anyways
[01:15] <janimo> baz & bzr I mean
[01:15] <Kamion> baz register-archive http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005
[01:15] <Kamion> baz get colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/cdimage--mainline--0 cdimage
[01:15] <Kamion> cd cdimage && baz build-config configs/devel
[01:15] <Kamion> that should get you started
[01:16] <Kamion> you'll need a complete local mirror
[01:16] <janimo> complete as in 70Gb? :)
[01:16] <janimo> which subset I need
[01:17] <Kamion> for xubuntu, main+restricted+universe with whatever architectures you need
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[01:17] <Kamion> you can get away with only including the packages you want to put on the CD, if you feel like maintaining a mirror like that
[01:17] <janimo> can I use apt-proxy or I need a full mirror frm the start?
[01:18] <Kamion> you need it all locally from the start; you're going to end up downloading it all anyway
[01:18] <janimo> oh joy, with 20Kbytes/ps
[01:18] <Kamion> I guess you could run the requests for everything you need through apt-proxy to seed it
[01:18] <Kamion> naturally you will need a somewhat well-connected host; I assume you weren't planning to serve CD images off a host with 20K/s anyway
[01:19] <janimo> nope I was hoping someone else will do this :), butI'll see what I can do
[01:19] <janimo> maybe do it and get someone to duplicate the steps on better linnked host
[01:20] <Kamion> you'd need to teach a number of bits of that code about xubuntu; I'm happy to take those patches
[01:20] <janimo> would it make sense to try getting xubuntu pkgs in main first?would that ease something?
[01:20] <Kamion> that would make life a lot easier in general, yes
[01:21] <janimo> do I need one wiki page/package for mainInclusionreport? They are most coming from same source with same security (lack of) background etc.
[01:21] <Kamion> by the time that's done we *may* be able to reconsider building the images centrally, depending on what the load on cdimage and me looks like at that point
[01:21] <janimo> oh that would be great
[01:21] <Kamion> but I can't promise
[01:22] <Kamion> you need one wiki page / report per source package, for tracking purposes
[01:22] <Kamion> we need to be able to go back later and see "why did we add that anyway?"
[01:22] <janimo> ok
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[01:24] <juliux> doko, dholbach ping
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[01:25] <dholbach> juliux: pong
[01:26] <juliux> dholbach, do you have breezy cds?
[01:26] <dholbach> juliux: no
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[01:26] <juliux> dholbach, do you know somebody in germany who can send us some to the linuxworldexpo in frankfurt?
[01:27] <dholbach> juliux: http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalink/2005/11/15/gnome-at-linuxworld-expo-frankfurt/
[01:27] <juliux> dholbach, hehe there we get the cds from, there are no more cds
[01:28] <juliux> dholbach, that is the problem
[01:28] <dholbach> juliux: sorry, that's everybody i know who was provided with a big bunch of CDs in germany
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[01:34] <\sh> wooohoooo....
[01:35] <\sh> 100 Ubuntu ShipIt CDs spread this morning at ISH HQ 
[01:35] <\sh> two school classes were visiting us...70 people, age around 16-23...all Ubuntu Branded now 
[01:36] <ogra> cool
[01:36] <Riddell> ISH may be getting a few more support calls in future
[01:37] <\sh> Riddell: no...I will#
[01:39] <\sh> 30 people from NOC Monitoring are  Ubuntunized, too :) 
[01:39] <\sh> I just had a presentation about ubuntu linux now...15 mins with 3 people here who were interested to replace their windows on their machines at home
[01:41] <janimo> \sh, did orders from pre breezy get migrated or do  Ineed to place a shipping req with the LP id?
[01:42] <\sh> janimo: no...I just placed a new order during pre-ordering period of breezy via the new ship it system
[01:42] <janimo> thanks
[01:43] <\sh> 200 still left...I have to check if we need more cds during the linux days in essen (3.-4. December)
[01:44] <Mithrandir> Kamion: newt-plugin-detect-keyboard.so just built out-of-tree here. \o/  No idea if it works yet, though.
=== Mithrandir goes to celebrate with a cup of tea.
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[01:52] <seb128> infinity, lamont-away, Kamion: could you give a retry to abiword build?
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[01:55] <seb128> elmo, Kamion: could you sync gtkmathview from Debian?
[01:55] <Kamion> Mithrandir: cool
[01:56] <Kamion> seb128: abiword> done
[01:57] <Kamion> seb128: sync> s/, Kamion//
[01:57] <seb128> Kamion: I've ", Kamion" because I've pinged elmo like 2 hours ago for a sync and doesn't work, and if we want to roll a CD this week better to not wait 4 hours for every single fix
[01:58] <seb128> so if you can do it to speed up
[01:58] <seb128> other way that's fine too, but that will be slower to get a installable state again to roll a CD
[02:00] <Kamion> seb128: elmo asked me not to do it unless he was away very long-term, because it causes problems when he tries to get up to date again; so no
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[02:01] <seb128> Kamion: k, fine with me, thanks anyway
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=== mvo whines aobut bugzilla
[02:09] <seb128> grumpf
[02:10] <seb128> so
[02:10] <seb128> with folder/a and dir/
[02:10] <seb128> cp -a folder/a dir/
[02:10] <seb128> creates a dir/a with Debian
[02:10] <seb128> and breaks with dapper
[02:10] <ogra> ugh
[02:11] <seb128> which breaks GTK build
[02:11] <dholbach> ouch
[02:11] <ogra> that will break a lot more than GTK ...
[02:11] <seb128> yeah
[02:11] <Kamion> breaks how?
[02:12] <seb128> dir/ is not a directory: No such file or directory
[02:12] <seb128> cp: target dir/ is not a directory: No such file or directory
[02:12] <seb128> grumpf
[02:12] <doko> working outside a chroot?
[02:13] <seb128> I've not tried with a chroot
[02:13] <ogra> seb128, is your coreutils package up to date ? 
[02:13] <seb128> GTK doesn't build on my dapper
[02:13] <seb128> same source package build with a Debian experimental pbuilder
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[02:13] <Kamion> our coreutils is in sync with Debian unstable at the moment
[02:13] <Kamion> is your Debian installation up to date?
[02:13] <ogra> yes, but the package was updated yesterday ...
[02:13] <Kamion> I know] 
[02:13] <seb128> Kamion: ii  coreutils                5.2.1-2.1                The GNU core utilities
[02:13] <seb128> is the pbuilder working
[02:13] <seb128> (not update)
[02:13] <Kamion> that's out of date
[02:14] <ogra> 5.93 
[02:14] <seb128> ii  coreutils                5.93-2                   The GNU core utilities
[02:14] <seb128> is my box
[02:14] <seb128> (breaking)
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[02:14] <Nafallo> elmo: please sync tla from unstable (ubuntu override okey)
[02:18] <BenC> anyone here have the ipw2200 where it didn't work with 2.6.15-2.2, and also anyone with a USB atmel wireless?
[02:18] <BenC> need 2.6.15-3.3 tested
[02:19] <seb128> so
[02:19] <seb128> cp -a folder/a dir/a works
[02:19] <seb128> cp -a folder/a dir/a/ breaks
[02:19] <seb128> and both work with previous coreutils
[02:19] <Kamion> I think that's correct actually
[02:19] <Kamion> at least arguably
[02:19] <Kamion> a/ refers to the contents of an existing directory
[02:19] <seb128> maybe, that still breaks working stuff
[02:19] <seb128> ie: the GTK build :)
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[02:20] <Kamion> well, using dir/a/ to refer to a nonexistent directory is extremely confusing
[02:21] <seb128> I agree and will fix the GTK package
[02:21] <Kamion> it has different behaviour depending on whether you've created the directory yet ...
[02:21] <seb128> yeah
[02:22] <Mithrandir> Kamion: hmm, how would we know what plugin to depend on?  If we have the kbd-chooser, like today, it would have to depend on the right plugin (or maybe it could use anna-install) depending on the frontend.
[02:24] <Kamion> Mithrandir: I think I'd been thinking of doing cdebconf-newt-detect-keys Provides: cdebconf-detect-keys Debconf-Frontend: newt, kbd-chooser Depends: cdebconf-detect-keys, and anna checks Debconf-Frontend:
[02:24] <Kamion> or something like that
[02:25] <Mithrandir> that'd work, yes.
[02:25] <Kamion> pretty much the same way as we currently handle Kernel-Version:
[02:28] <Kamion> janimo: at the very least it looks like I'm going to end up making *-meta/update use python modules from germinate ...
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[02:37] <janimo> Kamion, cool
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[02:46] <mvo> elmo: please sync guile-1.6 from debian (override ok)
[02:47] <seb128> libcurl3 Depends on ca-certificates which is universe
[02:48] <seb128> is somebody working on that?
[02:48] <seb128> that makes openoffice2 and some other stuff uninstallable
[02:53] <Kamion> Removed debconf from minimal-ia64
[02:53] <Kamion> d'oh. this can't be right
[02:53] <Kamion> ah, debootstrap, she is confused
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[02:54] <sbalneav> Morning all!
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[02:58] <ogra_> hey sbalneav 
[02:58] <sbalneav> Hey there ogra_!
[02:58] <sbalneav> How's it going?
[02:58] <ogra_> fine ...
[02:59] <sbalneav> We had about 60cm of snow here yesterday.  I was out with the snowblower, doing my driveway, and 5 other neighbors driveways.  My hands are swollen up today.  Makes it hard to type :(
[03:00] <ogra> phew
[03:00] <Treenaks> where is that?
[03:00] <ogra> winnipeg 
[03:00] <Treenaks> ah
[03:02] <mvo> doko: around?
[03:07] <doko> mvo: yes
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[03:08] <mvo> doko: I want to request a sync for jade, you made it use g++-3.4, debian is using 4.0. any special reason or can I go ahead with the sync?
[03:08] <mvo> (it seems to build fine with g++-4.0)
[03:08] <mvo> (#19209)
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[03:09] <ddaa> Hey, who's our official printer guru?
[03:09] <mvo> ddaa: pitti AFAIK
[03:09] <ddaa> mh... not here ATM
[03:10] <mvo> ddaa: was the synaptic import successful (/me ducks)
[03:10] <ddaa> The server is just too unreliable :(
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[03:10] <mvo> ddaa: right, thanks for keeping on trying. I'll probably ask for a tarball of the svn dir instead or something
[03:11] <ddaa> Yes, getting a clone of svn repo on a stable host for the initial import would be a quick way of fixing the problem.
[03:11] <ddaa> I could probably hack cscvs to be less picky though. But no time for that ATM.
[03:12] <mvo> ddaa: thanks, I'll ask for a tarball then
=== Kamion decides to split out a 'boot' seed; I'm tired of handling certain bits of minimal specially
[03:13] <doko> mvo: yes, use 4.0 when possible
[03:14] <ogra> Kamion, are there plans to rename the "server" CD option ? else i'd like to rename it at least for edubuntu ... its a bit confusing there
[03:14] <mvo> elmo: please sync jade from debian (override ok)
[03:14] <mvo> doko: thanks
[03:14] <Kamion> hmm, no, maybe that won't work
[03:14] <Kamion> ogra: not right now, no
[03:15] <Kamion> ogra: feel free to suggest a different name for Edubuntu
[03:15] <ogra> i will ... have to think about it ...
[03:16] <ogra> "bare" or "core" probably ... lets see 
[03:16] <mvo> elmo: please sync mpack from debian (override ok)
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[03:16] <mvo> "core" sounds good to me
[03:17] <ddaa> Since pitti is not around. I'll ask my quick question here: is there a (vaguely) sane way of getting gutenprint-5.0.0-rc1 up and running on breezy, short of packaging it. Failing that, is it possible to get a specific chosen driver working? I tried "configure --with-cups --prefix /opt/gutenprint-5.0.0-rc1" but it still tries to overwrite (at least) one system file in /usr...
=== mvo thinks that "bare" sounds like "naked". but that might be just me
[03:17] <ogra> at least better than server for a distro that does a server install by default :)
[03:17] <ddaa> also tried to just pick the ppd i needed, but that's obviously bogus and did not work.
[03:18] <Kamion> ogra: 'custom' was the original name before Mark asked me to change it to improve server messaging
[03:18] <Kamion> (i.e. because the "Ubuntu is just for desktops" meme was spreading too far)
[03:18] <ogra> but "custom" sounds like i have to customize something ...
[03:19] <Kamion> well, you probably do if you're just installing the base system
[03:19] <ogra> true ...
[03:21] <mvo> elmo: please sync ots from debian (override ok)
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[03:25] <BenC> anyone here ever experience the "k8 clock runs at double speed" bug?
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[03:25] <mvo> elmo: please sync opensp from debian (override ok)
[03:25] <Nafallo> BenC: how to check it? :-)
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[03:26] <BenC> Nafallo: if your clock runs twice normal, then you have it (you'd know if you did)
[03:26] <Nafallo> I don't :-)
=== mvo has a k8, but hasn't noticed this problem yet
[03:26] <BenC> my k8 Sempron laptop had it, but I don't have that laptop anymore
[03:26] <BenC> just wondering if 2.6.15 fixes it
[03:27] <ogra> mine shows 15:26 ... which should be right for my TZ
[03:27] <BenC> it's real noticable
[03:27] <BenC> you have to boot with noapictimer to get it to work right
[03:27] <BenC> even pings twice a second
[03:27] <Treenaks> BenC: did you get the "screenshot" pic correctly? :)
[03:27] <BenC> Treenaks: yes, thanks
[03:28] <BenC> haven't had a chance to look at it yet, just fixing the easy stuff and getting ppc to build so I can upload -3.3 today
[03:28] <Treenaks> easy stuff like firmware? :)
[03:29] <BenC> yeah, I got the ipw2200 fixed
=== ddaa tries the obviously foolish thing of building the debian/testing package
[03:31] <HiddenWolf> BenC, dude, do you sleep?
[03:32] <mdz> siretart: the Recommends should be changed to a Suggests, and yes, that's fine for breezy-updates
[03:32] <BenC> hidden: whem the computer is compiling, I sleep :)
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[03:32] <HiddenWolf> BenC, hah, ok. :)
[03:33] <BenC> luckily I have a slow computer
[03:33] <Nafallo> hehe
[03:33] <Kamion> mdz: so, I'm doing a big shake-up of the *-meta/update scripts, in order to make them support a few new bits of syntax in the seeds which we need them to support now
[03:33] <Kamion> mdz: (doing this by making them use germinate's python modules)
[03:33] <mdz> Kamion: will you have them pull directly from bzr while you're there?
[03:33] <mdz> ah
[03:33] <mdz> what's the new syntax?
[03:34] <Kamion> mdz: bzr> not yet, but I will eventually, yes
[03:34] <Kamion> mdz: well, kind of old syntax actually, but "Languages: ar as at ..." / "language-pack-${Languages}"
[03:35] <Kamion> mdz: in the process I ran smack into the weird way that linux-* and the bootloaders are handled in the minimal seed (because we don't want debootstrap to install them), and decided I didn't really want to hardcode the list of exceptions in yet another place
[03:35] <Kamion> mdz: so I'm splitting out kernels and bootloaders from the minimal seed to a new 'boot' seed
[03:36] <mdz> hmm, ok
[03:36] <Kamion> that won't be installed by debootstrap, and ubuntu-minimal won't depend on it, but it will obviously end up on CD images
[03:36] <Kamion> this was necessary because once we started using germinate to parse the seeds, germinate noticed that grub and yaboot in the live seed were duplicated from minimal, and ignored them
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[03:38] <Kamion> seems to work so far, although I haven't tried a CD image build in the new world order yet
[03:41] <HiddenWolf> BenC, dare I ask why 2.6.15 is so troublesome?
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[03:41] <BenC> HiddenWolf: it's not really
[03:41] <BenC> or are you having problems with it?
[03:41] <Treenaks> BenC: he's scared of it now :)
[03:42] <HiddenWolf> BenC, your changelogs made me cry of fear. :P
[03:42] <mdz> BenC: you did write in the changelog "I know it's broken"
[03:42] <BenC> that was just to alleviate all expectations of "perfect" :)
[03:43] <BenC> the correct statement would have been "I don't expect this to work for everyone, so you shouldn't either"
[03:43] <siretart> BenC: does the new 2.6.15 package have any expectations about the userland? (like udev from dapper or something like that)
[03:43] <xhaker> it seems to work great.. shaved of 3 seconds at boot.. but is this 2.6.15 or 2.6.14? shouldn't 2.6.15 depend on udev 0.71 ?
[03:43] <mdz> I don't think anyone has expectations of perfection, certainly not in dapper ;-)
[03:44] <BenC> siretart: so far, it's working ok for me, except that pmount and stuff doesn't seem to want to believe that the cdrom is mounted and open it (like in gnome)
[03:44] <xhaker> siretart, kinda my question too
[03:44] <mdz> xhaker: I don't think so; I believe the reverse is true (newer udev will require 2.6.15)
[03:44] <BenC> mdz is correct
[03:44] <Nafallo> BenC: aha! that's the kernels fault.
=== Nafallo just something to blame ;-)
[03:45] <BenC> :P
[03:45] <Nafallo> insert found on relevant place :-)
[03:45] <BenC> the kernel did it's job and mounted it...gnome needs to handle it from there :P
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[03:48] <mdz> BenC: I get a corrupted vga16fb on my laptop with 2.6.15
[03:48] <Treenaks> mdz: everyone did, I guess
[03:49] <ogra> yup
[03:49] <ddaa> well, it looks like it actually worked...
[03:49] <BenC> usplash is broken for starters, but I've not been able to test vga16fb (except on a machine where it didn't work in breezy)
[03:49] <ddaa> whoever's closest to the backport guys could mention that datum: gutenprint from debian/testing appears to be compatible with breezy
[03:49] <BenC> using vesa I was able to get it working (vga=0x### on the kernel cmdline)
[03:50] <xhaker> works here with vga too
[03:50] <xhaker> my only gripe is i can't compile fglrx
[03:50] <mdz> doko: what happened with hplip? it looks like your split to hplip-base was reverted
[03:50] <BenC> mdz: I need to revisit vga16fb, we had some minor hacks in breezy for it to make it modular, it's possible I missed something
[03:51] <ogra> xhaker, who needs 3D accel in development.... there is no time for playing anyway ;)
=== BenC watches bugzilla choke down the mass bug changes
[03:52] <doko> mdz: I'll have a look
[03:52] <mdz> Mithrandir: see above regarding hplip; that was your merge?
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[03:53] <Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I thought it was split, then merged in d-i.  Sorry. :-(
[03:53] <fabbione> BenC: i will probably need some help with -security for this release. There are some weird things going on
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[03:53] <xhaker> ogra, i don't even play.. it's just curiosity why it doesn't build
[03:53] <Mithrandir> s/d-i/debian/
[03:54] <fabbione> BenC: 
[03:54] <ogra> xhaker, heh ..
[03:54] <fabbione>   SYSMAP  .tmp_System.map
[03:54] <fabbione> Inconsistent kallsyms data
[03:54] <fabbione> Try setting CONFIG_KALLSYMS_EXTRA_PASS
[03:54] <fabbione> i have seen that error once already
[03:54] <fabbione> but i don't remember how we did fix it
[03:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: I'll fix it.
[03:54] <BenC> odd, add that config option
[03:54] <mdz> Mithrandir: thanks
[03:54] <BenC> it's a hack, but it will get the job done
[03:54] <Mithrandir> mdz: (but I want to test this cdebconf stuff I'm working on fixed first)
[03:55] <fabbione> BenC: yeah it does.. apparently :)
[03:55] <fabbione> anyway i am out of here for today
[03:55] <doko>  * Merge hplip-base and hplip packages.  Current upstream code makes it
[03:55] <doko>       a losing battle to try to keep the two separate
[03:56] <doko> mdz: ^^^
[03:56] <fabbione> later guys
[03:56] <mdz> doko: that's unfortunate
[03:57] <Mithrandir> uhm, $ file initrd
[03:57] <Mithrandir> initrd:
[03:57] <Mithrandir> mdz: why is it a problem?
[03:58] <mdz> Mithrandir: iirc, it pulled in some dependencies we didn't want in the desktop (or perhaps in main)
[03:58] <mdz> all I see in anastacia.txt is python-qt3, though, which seems reasonable enough
[03:59] <Mithrandir> I can disable the qt stuff if we don't want it, I guess.
[03:59] <BenC> actually, we never touched vga16fb, just vesa for modular
[04:00] <BenC> so if vga16fb is broken, it's not our (my) fault :)
[04:00] <mdz> Mithrandir: I don't see a problem with it; doko would know what the issue was for sure
[04:02] <mdz> BenC: it doesn't look like you changed the status of this mass of bugs
[04:03] <BenC> mdz: doh, I missed that, it wont let me set them to needsinfo
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[04:03] <BenC> but it let me set them to P5, which I think is pretty empty
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[04:04] <doko> Mithrandir, mdz: afaik, that's the only interface to check for the ink status, focus the print-head etc
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[04:04] <doko> but maybe the best thing to do for now :(
[04:05] <Treenaks> BenC: re: 2129: what other info is needed? or is it being marked by mistake?
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[04:10] <Mithrandir> hmm, so for some reason, cdebconf doesn't see the module.  Or ignores it.
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[04:13] <doko> mdz: does a bug import from debian to malone work, or can we import bug reports (even universe) to bugzilla (allocator change)?
=== Kamion -> school run
[04:16] <BenC> Treenaks: probably mistake
[04:16] <ogra> oh, there is snow outside !
[04:16] <BenC> Treenaks: bugzilla wont let me search by "no comments added for > 6 months"
[04:18] <BenC> ogra: there shoud be snow where I am, but for some reason I have to have the AC on still
[04:18] <BenC> way too hot for this time of year
[04:19] <ogra> BenC, i'd have no objections to chang with you :) i *hate* snow
[04:19] <BenC> don't get me wrong, I love this weather, but it just feels wrong :)
[04:20] <ogra> heh
[04:21] <ogra> but your place seems to be similar to mine ... in the middle of nowhere :)
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[04:23] <BenC> pitti: hey
[04:23] <pitti> Hi
[04:24] <ogra> pitti, spending your free day on irc ? :)
[04:25] <BenC> pitti: you had the atmel usb wireless, correct?
[04:25] <mvo> BenC: I have one
[04:25] <BenC> mvo: i386?
[04:25] <mvo> pitti: hey pitti, do you mind if I fix #10174 (you touched dhcp3-client last)?
[04:25] <BenC> Treenaks: oh, and you had ipw2200, right?
[04:26] <mvo> BenC: amd64, but I can install a i386 dapper if needed
[04:26] <pitti> ogra: we just watched a cute movie about penguins :)
[04:26] <BenC> I need 2.6.15-3.3 tested for atmel usb, and ipw2200 firmware updates
[04:26] <pitti> mvo: merge? sure, anyway, I don't sit on it
[04:26] <Treenaks> BenC: ok, I'll try that tonight when I'm home
[04:26] <BenC> I have i386 images built
[04:26] <ogra> pitti, ah, cool
[04:27] <BenC> Treenaks: ok, thanks
[04:27] <pitti> BenC: btw, after resuming from STD, USB did not work any more with yesterday's kernel
[04:27] <pitti> BenC: I'll test it soon, but not now
[04:27] <mvo> BenC: how long will a amd64 build take?
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[04:28] <BenC> mvo: not sure
[04:28] <jsgotangco> hello
[04:28] <HiddenWolf> Woei, de vlieg is dood.
[04:28] <HiddenWolf> whoops
[04:28] <HiddenWolf> sorry
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[04:30] <BenC> http://people.ubuntu.com/~bcollins/2.6.15/ if anyone wants to test it
[04:31] <trulux> pitti: hey
[04:31] <BenC> is there anything wrong with closing bugs in bugzilla after they've been resolved for some time?
[04:31] <ogra> nope
[04:31] <pitti> BenC: I never understood the difference between resolved/fixed and closed
[04:32] <pitti> or, rather, I was never told
[04:32] <HiddenWolf> pitti, fixed -> "i believe it should work now"  - closed -> "over and done with"
[04:32] <HiddenWolf> something like that?
[04:33] <BenC> I've always done resolved, but I'd like to flush all of them to closed
[04:33] <Diziet> Whose bright idea was renaming the mozilla-firefox package, anyway ?
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[04:33] <BenC> kernel has 729 "Resolved" bugs, going back as far as bug #52
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[04:34] <mvo> Diziet: iirc it was someting with there trademark policy 
[04:34] <HiddenWolf> BenC, i'd say close em. unless there's any debate about if they're still unsolved. :P
[04:35] <jdong_> so, can anyone here gimme an estimate of when breezy-backports stuff will start building?
[04:35] <BenC> well, I'm not about to go through each one, so mass close, and if any debate exists I'll reopen
[04:35] <Diziet> mvo: ?!
[04:35] <mvo> BenC: feel free to ping me when amd64 is ready, I'm happy to test
[04:35] <BenC> mvo: ok
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[04:35] <mvo> Diziet: IIRC/AFAIK it can only be called "mozilla firefox" for official buils or something 
[04:36] <jdong_> mvo: correct -- our FF is too patched for it to be considered MOZILLA Firefox
[04:36] <BenC> we should call it "Ubuntu Browser" like AOL does :)
[04:36] <Mithrandir> Diziet: http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html
[04:36] <Diziet> And this is not true of Debian's ?
[04:36] <Chipzz> talking about which
[04:36] <ogra> and get a ubuntu logo as throbber ? 
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[04:36] <Chipzz> is there a ff 1.5 beta package yet? :P
[04:37] <jdong_> mvo: SuSE/Fedora/FreeBSD are fairly vanilla, and have gained permission to be mozilla-branded
[04:37] <jdong_> Chipzz: I was told it's in the works
[04:37] <BenC> ogra: a Dapper Drake doing the dapper dance
[04:37] <ogra> lol
[04:37] <mvo> jdong_: thanks for clarifing
[04:37] <Diziet> chipzz: That's what I'm doing now.  I'm just merging the control files and then I'll make it fail to build.
[04:38] <jdong_> LOL
[04:38] <siretart> Diziet: there has been a giaant discussion in debian-legal and debian-devel about the 'mozilla-firefox' package in debian
[04:38] <Diziet> siretart: Oh joy.
[04:38] <Diziet> And what did they decide ?
[04:39] <jdong_> hmm, where have we heard about Debian getting into legal flamewars recently ;)
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[04:39] <Diziet> Don't tell me: they decided the licence was non-free and we all had to beat ourselves with birch branches.
[04:39] <siretart> Diziet: thats the funny part. I think the discussion ended in an agreement of the firefox foundation admitting, that the debian firefox package are good enough to retain the branding 'mozilla-firefox'
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[04:40] <jdong_> heh, we don't have any hope of that!
[04:40] <Diziet> There were 25k lines of diff between upstream 1.0.7 and Debian's.
[04:40] <siretart> and honestly, I'm still confused by that flamewar
[04:40] <jdong_> Why _do_ we patch our Firefox so much?
[04:40] <siretart> jdong_: because vanilla firefox is broken like hell?
[04:40] <Diziet> 1.5beta is going to be _much_ less patched.
[04:41] <jdong_> Diziet: sweet, thanks
[04:41] <jdong_> would it be (perhaps) FASTER?
[04:41] <jdong_> ;)
[04:41] <Diziet> Hey, what do I know ?  I'm just wading around up to my eyeballs in a giant morass of C++ and JavaScript.
[04:42] <siretart> jdong_: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=mozilla-firefox&archive=yes to get an impression
[04:42] <jdong_> siretart: oh? I've been a pretty heavy user of vanilla FF... what's wrong with it?
[04:42] <jdong_> siretart: yes, but why is Ubuntu Firefox specifically so slow in Breezy?
[04:43] <siretart> it is? *shrug*, not for me ;)
[04:43] <HiddenWolf> breezy as a whole isn't the fastest, to be honest.
[04:43] <ogra> for me neither
[04:43] <Diziet> Most of the diffs between upstream 1.0.7 and breezy have been somehow incorporated upstream, but in many cases in a substantially rewritten way.
[04:44] <Diziet> I suspect that the slowness is something to do with i18n and/or UTF-8.
[04:44] <Diziet> Or possibly pango.
[04:44] <jdong_> #15534 for those unfamiliar
[04:44] <HiddenWolf> Diziet, rewritten in a good or bad way?
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[04:45] <Diziet> Pass.  I didn't get as far as trying to do a code review on 50kloc of diffs to font and graphics handling.
[04:45] <jdong_> lol
=== mvo sobs a bit about baz
[04:46] <jdong_> is elmo still ultra-busy with ubz and such?
[04:47] <ogra> mvo, you dont like bzr ? 
[04:48] <Nafallo> jdong_: ubz is over.
[04:48] <jdong_> ok
[04:48] <jdong_> so any idea why elmo still isn't queuing up Backports builds for me?
[04:48] <ogra> jetlag ? 
[04:48] <Nafallo> syncs?
[04:49] <Nafallo> elmo: thanx :-)
[04:49] <jdong_> so he should be back to normal fairly soon, right?
[04:50] <jdong_> right?
[04:50] <ogra> i costs me normally about 3 days until its near normality ...
[04:51] <Kamion> jdong_: I heard mutterings that breezy-backports will be opening once dapper's on launchpad; but that could be scurrilous rumour for all I know
[04:51] <Nafallo> jdong_: no idea. why don't you ask him?
[04:51] <jdong_> I have been unsuccessful in contacting him
[04:51] <Kamion> jdong_: I know elmo's been moderately busy with meetings, his job not being *solely* administering the archive
[04:51] <ogra> Kamion, backports was officially opened last week
[04:51] <BenC> I'm glad no one is next to the bugzilla machine, it's probably crying right now
[04:51] <jdong_> e-mail, never really found him on IRC.....
[04:51] <Kamion> ogra: it was? news to me
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[04:51] <jdong_> Kamion: yes, it has
[04:51] <jdong_> there are 20-30 packages waiting to be built
[04:51] <HiddenWolf> BenC, you mass-closed those bugs? :)
[04:52] <ogra> Kamion, yes, elmo opened it on the old build arch for now
[04:52] <BenC> damn right
[04:52] <jdong_> Kamion:  I know it's not his sole job, but if he's going to have 7+day lag, I think we need to change something
[04:52] <jdong_> his response speed was excellent in hoary-backports
[04:53] <BenC> jdong_: change what you feed him, I think he prefers pop-tarts and munchkins
[04:53] <jdong_> lol
[04:53] <Mithrandir> and pepsi max.
[04:53] <zakame> there's no sugar
[04:54] <Nafallo> eeew! pepsi :-P
[04:54] <jdong_> well, I gotta go... class is almost over....
[04:54] <jdong_> have fun, everyone
[04:54] <BenC> blasphemy, pepsi is all goodness!
[04:54] <BenC> uh oh, I think jdong made elmo mad
[04:55] <Nafallo> coca cola and jolt is the stuff.
[04:55] <BenC> I miss jolt, they don't sell it around here anymore though
[04:55] <Nafallo> BenC: oh? :-)
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[04:56] <Nafallo> I stopped with *caffeine* :-)
[04:56] <Nafallo> it wasn't good for me :-)
[04:57] <BenC> cigarretes, jack daniels and caffeine
[04:57] <BenC> not so much the jack, but the other two are a real problem for me :)
[04:57] <HiddenWolf> BenC, stereotypical. ;)
[04:57] <Nafallo> I will never start with nicotine :-)
[04:58] <BenC> hidden: my front yard is a cow pasture, sue me :P
[04:58] <Amaranth> nicotine and caffeine, the two things that get me through an all night coding session
[04:58] <BenC> Amaranth: amen
[04:58] <Amaranth> the jack is for after the session
[04:59] <BenC> stop the caffeine jitters
[04:59] <HiddenWolf> Amaranth, try working during daylight, might save you the all-nighters. :P
[04:59] <BenC> *stops
[04:59] <Amaranth> although i don't really drink so...
[04:59] <Amaranth> HiddenWolf: daylight? what is this daylight you speak of?
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[04:59] <Amaranth> actually i only pull all nighters like that when i've got a deadline for something
[04:59] <Amaranth> or during summer
[05:00] <BenC> speaking of cigarettes...
[05:01] <Amaranth> too cold here
[05:01] <Amaranth> i've gone out twice and only smoked about half a cigarette each time before my fingers froze
[05:03] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I have something which mostly works, apart from the fact that it claims that my plugin is malformed.  I'll investigate that further tomorrow, since I have to go for an RPG session now.
[05:03] <HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, you nerd. ;)
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[05:06] <Kamion> Mithrandir: ok, have fun. "Malformed plugin module" means that it can't find the <frontend>_handler_<plugin-name> symbol.
[05:09] <seb128> elmo: could you sync gtk+2.0 from Debian incoming?
[05:09] <mdz> BenC: so far I haven't had any reason to distinguish between RESOLVED and CLOSED in our process
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[05:10] <slomo> BenC: did you get the url of my updated libraw1394 package?
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[05:14] <siretart> is elmo actually processing syncs today?
[05:16] <seb128> he just did some
[05:16] <mvo> siretart: I got a bunch just now
[05:17] <siretart> elmo: could you please have a look at my key?
[05:17] <Nafallo> siretart: yes
[05:19] <mdz> Znarl: is there nothing that can be done about macquarie?
[05:19] <mdz> Znarl: it's a big problem for us not to be able to work with bugzilla
[05:20] <Znarl> mdz : I know, I saw the nagging this morning.  :/
[05:21] <mdz> I have a backlog of 1400 bugs to look at, and it takes about a minute just to load up each bug in a browser
=== seb128 does non-bug stuff for the moment, bugzilla is too slow to work with
[05:22] <neuralis> mdz: *hint*specs*hint* and then bugs? :)
[05:24] <doko> mdz: does a bug import from debian to malone work, or can we import bug reports (even universe) to bugzilla (allocator change)?
[05:24] <BenC> mdz: not sure what the purpose is either, but for whatever reason, I'm changing them all to closed, so maybe it will help me later :)
[05:25] <mdz> doko: it should be possible to import them to malone, yes
[05:25] <BenC> if only so I can get some accurate bug statistics for dapper cycle
[05:25] <mdz> BenC: I don't think it will be helpful, and it produces a lot of unnecessary mail. probably best to leave them alone unless we have a reason to do so
[05:26] <Nafallo> what's up with dapper-changes? my syncs katie told me about 40 minutes ago haven't ended up there yet.
[05:26] <BenC> the statistics is my main thing
[05:27] <mdz> BenC: which statistics?
[05:27] <BenC> when dapper releases, I want to be able to see that X number of bugs were resolved, and do a mass closing after dapper again for the next cycle
[05:28] <BenC> s/statistics/accounting/
[05:28] <BenC> maybe that makes more sense
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[05:29] <[splinux] > hi all
[05:29] <mdz> you've just landed another 50 emails in my inbox
[05:29] <BenC> is there a way to do it so it doesn't send email?
[05:29] <mdz> if the idea is to count how many bugs were closed during the cycle, there are surely easier ways
[05:30] <Nafallo> oh
[05:30] <Nafallo> maybe that's why _I_ don't recieve mails :-P
[05:32] <BenC> well, I stopped the process
[05:32] <mdz> thanks
[05:32] <mdz> bugzilla does have a reporting facility which may very well give you the report you want
[05:32] <mdz> without changing status information
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[05:33] <Nafallo> but then again, the build-logs stopped also :-/.
[05:33] <BenC> maybe it's just my nature, but I hate leaving them unclosed :)
[05:33] <mdz> of course, by the time dapper releases we'll have migrated to malone anyway, and the bugzilla distinction of resolved vs. closed won't exist there anyway
[05:33] <BenC> very true
[05:34] <siretart> is there a timeframe for that? we hat someone earlier today in #ubuntu-motu asking that
[05:34] <mdz> Znarl: can we run jamesh's job on a different machine?
[05:34] <siretart> timeline, even
[05:34] <mdz> siretart: no, there isn't
[05:34] <siretart> okay
[05:35] <BenC> is lp deemed production ready yet for dapper, or are they still working out some of the stuff from ubz?
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[05:35] <dieman> are we to submit all bugs to malone yet, or bugzilla or what?
[05:35] <BenC> damn, I might aswell finish this up, closed 500 of the 729 bugs already anyway
[05:36] <dholbach> dieman: universe -> malone, main -> bugzilla
[05:36] <xhaker> dieman, main to bugzilla.. 
[05:36] <dieman> ok
[05:36] <BenC> maybe I'll do 50 a day till it's done :)
[05:36] <dieman> still main to bugzilla
[05:36] <xhaker> BenC running your 2.15.3 kernel now
[05:36] <xhaker> anything you want feedback on?
[05:37] <BenC> do you have a ipw2200 of atmel usb?
[05:37] <BenC> *or
[05:38] <xhaker> ipw2200 :P
[05:38] <BenC> is it working?
[05:38] <xhaker> it is
[05:38] <BenC> sweet
[05:38] <BenC> thanks
[05:38] <xhaker> only change is the firmware right? drivers are still 1.0.8?
[05:38] <dieman> ipw2200 rocks :)
[05:38] <xhaker> it's spitting out a warning but i don't think it's important
[05:38] <BenC> xhaker: yeah, I updated from 2.3 to 2.4 firmware
[05:38] <xhaker> checking dmesg
=== mvo reboots and sees if he can make his machine crash with a zd1211 usb stick
[05:39] <xhaker> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/20051114/dapper-install-i386.jigdo
[05:39] <xhaker> ups
[05:39] <xhaker> not this
[05:39] <xhaker> [17179595.184000]  Warning: PCI driver ipw2200 has a struct device_driver shutdown method, please update!
[05:40] <dieman> BenC: oh, so your why bugzilla is going at glacial pace ;)
[05:40] <mdz> dieman: no, that's a separate issue
[05:40] <dieman> oh
[05:40] <dieman> noticed all the closed bugs i just got :)
[05:41] <Kamion> Riddell: should amu really still be the Maintainer: of kubuntu-meta?
[05:41] <BenC> dieman: yes, I beat on bugzilla, and I feel a lot better now :)
[05:41] <Riddell> Kamion: not really
[05:41] <xhaker> BenC.. there are other errors/debug lines in the dmesg for ipw2200 but i had them before
[05:41] <BenC> xhaker: interesting, I'll have to do a build without that function defined and see if it still works
[05:41] <Kamion> Riddell: thought not
[05:41] <Riddell> Kamion: I'll change that on next upload, or you can if you're about to uploda
[05:42] <Kamion> Riddell: I only noticed after upload unfortunately
[05:42] <Nafallo> BenC: I think you (temporarily) stopped katie from sending me mail ;-/.
[05:42] <xhaker> BenC, lines like [17179695.116000]  ipw2200: Failed to send CARD_DISABLE: Command timed out. and [17179857.460000]  ipw2200: Unknown notification: subtype=40,flags=0xa0,size=40
[05:42] <xhaker> i doubt that helps tho
[05:43] <xhaker> must be something beyond build skills
[05:43] <BenC> xhaker: probably best to see the ipw2200 maintainers about that one...if it works, that's all I care about (especially if it did the same in breezy)
[05:43] <xhaker> s/skills/scope
[05:44] <BenC> mvo: you have a zd1211?
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[05:49] <BenC> mvo: that's what I heard about zd1211 driver
[05:49] <BenC> did Alt+SysRQ work at all?
[05:49] <mvo> BenC: yes, send you a mail about it, makes my system crash on ifup though
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[05:50] <BenC> ok
[05:50] <mvo> BenC: other people (beside me) have the problem as well? interessting. well, alt-sysrq does work, but +t does not show anything :/
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[05:51] <BenC> no IOMMU for amd64!?!
[05:51] <mvo> BenC: that's what the kernel tells me
[05:51] <BenC> maybe I need to do a 32bit DMA mask for that driver
[05:52] <BenC> mvo: no, no other reports, I just didn't make the connection that the email was from you at first
[05:52] <BenC> mvo: ok, zd1211 dma is on my todo list now
[05:52] <BenC> I'll let you know I get something to test
[05:53] <mvo> BenC: cool, thanks! I'll try to find a i386 box to test it there as well
[05:53] <mvo> (and the atmel thing)
[05:53] <BenC> sounds like zd1211 will work on 32-bit
[05:53] <BenC> probably just a 64-bit issue with high dma memory
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[05:54] <BenC> would be good to know if it did or didn't though
[05:54] <BenC> mvo: thanks for the testing
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[05:56] <Diziet> Maybe I should get more RAM for this box so I can keep a firefox tree or two in core.
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[05:59] <xhaker> :(
[06:00] <xhaker> i'm trying to reproduce the daily build of the 14th using jigdo and i already got some not found 400 errors :(
[06:01] <xhaker> i guess mvo had a bad enconter with the kernel
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[06:04] <mvo> BenC: both zd1211 and at76c503 work fine on 2.6.15-3-686 i386 (installed from people.u.c)
[06:06] <Kamion> xhaker: yeah, jigdo doesn't have a very long life for daily builds. Try 20051115.2 jigdo, and if you really want 20051114 then rsync back from that.
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[06:07] <xhaker> Kamion, 15.2 has some bad stuff going on :( it has some broken dependencies right?
[06:08] <ogra_>   dbus-1-utils: Depends: dbus but it is not going to be installed
[06:08] <ogra_> E: Broken packages
[06:08] <ogra_> E: Could not satisfy build-dependency.
[06:08] <ogra_> *grumble*
[06:09] <ogra_> updating pbuilder frequently is like playing russian roulette currently ...
[06:09] <Kamion> xhaker: entirely possible. daily builds right at the start of a release cycle are not expected to be sane.
[06:09] <xhaker> Kamion, rsync back from 15.2 -> 14 is that even possible? *rsync noob alert*
[06:09] <Kamion> xhaker: yes
[06:10] <xhaker> i just don't want to download the whole .iso
[06:10] <BenC> mvo: excellent, thanks
[06:11] <BenC> mvo: pretty much makes the zd1211 problem a 64-bit issue, and I'm pretty sure it's a simple fix...I'll get back to you on it
[06:11] <mvo> BenC: cool, thanks
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[06:13] <xhaker> Kamion, thanks.. i got it :P
[06:26] <doko> Kamion: is flight-1 still scheduled for Friday? is there anything that needs to be fixed for the build?
[06:30] <seb128> pitti: around?
[06:32] <xhaker> seb128, look what you've done :\          ;)
[06:33] <Kamion> doko: theoretically Thursday; we'll see, there's an awful lot of main<->universe churn at the moment that's making it difficult to tell
[06:33] <xhaker> true
[06:34] <doko> Kamion: tell me, I'm currently preparing syncs and renamings for the allocator change, which I can delay
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[06:35] <Kamion> doko: I think I already asked if those could be delayed
[06:35] <mdz> BenC: what criteria did you use to select "old" bugs?  I just saw one (5828) which had an insightful comment on October 24th
[06:36] <BenC> mdz: I used dates of last change, unfortunately "last change" does not have a way to include a comment being added
[06:37] <mdz> odd, I'd expect a comment to be a change
[06:38] <BenC> me too
[06:38] <BenC> I'll revert that one
[06:41] <Kamion> Mithrandir: your shadow merge just became urgent; adduser needs it
[06:41] <Amaranth> hey, if wine comes with an mp3 decoder shouldn't it be in multiverse?
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[06:48] <BenC> mvo: I have a patch in -3.3 for zd1211, when it's done compiling I'll ping you
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[06:52] <BenC> mdz: one thing I've not heard so far with 2.6.15 is anyone reporting that CDROM's are broken from the DMA enable
[06:52] <xhaker> BenC, what do you mean?
[06:53] <BenC> xhaker: for dapper DMA is enabled by default for cdrom's
[06:53] <BenC> prior to this it has always been disabled by default
[06:53] <xhaker> my cdrom reports udma2
[06:53] <BenC> I expect a blacklist will start soon enough though
[06:53] <Nafallo> BenC: I've had that in my hdparm.conf for ages so ;-)
[06:54] <mdz> BenC: I don't think we'll get broad feedback on that until we make 2.6.15 the default kernel in dapper
[06:54] <Nafallo> s/so\ //
[06:54] <BenC> mdz: as soon as lrm is ready, I'm going to update linux-meta
[06:55] <Kamion> uh
[06:55] <Kamion> can this be post-Flight-1 please?
[06:55] <BenC> Kamion: how long till Flight 1?
[06:55] <Kamion> a day or two, depending on how soon I can make it all work
[06:56] <BenC> that's good timing then
[06:56] <BenC> I don't expect it to happen till next week
[06:58] <dilinger> BenC: nice to see that.  disabling DMA for cdroms just seemed like a bad idea
=== dilinger recalls the bug regarding that
[06:59] <HiddenWolf> dilinger, not catching a drive for which it breaks is a bad idea too. :P
[07:00] <Kamion> dilinger: there are bugs both ways round :(
[07:01] <dilinger> HiddenWolf: yes, but there's a blacklist for a reason
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[07:01] <dilinger> why penalize all cdroms/chipsets when it's merely a select few?
[07:02] <doko> Mithrandir: are you currently working on shadow sync?
[07:02] <HiddenWolf> dilinger, I doubt it's just a handful.
[07:04] <Kamion> doko: Mithrandir said he was going out for the evening, so I'm working on it now
[07:06] <doko> hmm, I really need a _new_ dapper chroot for the installability tests
[07:10] <dilinger> HiddenWolf: the bug reports i've seen seem to imply that
[07:10] <dilinger> i've personally not had a problem w/ DMA enabled on cdroms except for an ancient PIIX3 system
[07:11] <ogra> has anyone else seen problems with dbus in pbuilder ? 
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[07:26] <sivang> Kamion: flight 1 is the codename of the periodical builds? (foremly known as colony and sounder? ) :)
[07:26] <ogra> dont forget array
=== ogra cries about his pbuilder
[07:29] <Kamion> sivang: yes
[07:29] <mdz> BenC: what happened to the changelog for 2.6.15-1.1?
[07:30] <mdz> BenC: there were a number of significant changes besides merging 2.6.15, e.g. the config changes, unionfs, etc.
[07:30] <BenC> mdz: how do you mean?
[07:31] <mdz> but the changelog only mentions  merging and git
[07:31] <BenC> mdz: I didn't start the changelog till near the end, so it's a little thin
[07:31] <mdz> BenC: it also dropped all of the pre-2.6.15 changelog entries
[07:32] <BenC> well, it was a completely new tree, so everything from 2.6.12 didn't really apply
[07:32] <BenC> 99% of everything was just taking the patches from breezy
[07:32] <mdz> BenC: unless you dropped all of the changes which were in 2.6.12, it does apply
[07:32] <Kamion> carlos: msgcat --use-first so totally rocks
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[07:33] <BenC> mdz: I could say "pulled patch XXX from breezy", but that's not that informative
[07:33] <mdz> BenC: you could leave the old changelog entries in the file, and that would be informative
[07:34] <mdz> BenC: that's what we've done for all of the previous kernels
[07:34] <carlos> Kamion, ;-)
[07:34] <BenC> mdz: what about the 2.0.29 entries?
[07:35] <mdz> BenC: the changelog is all of 60k; I'm not worried
[07:36] <mdz> there's no reason to drop all of the history just because it's a new upstream
[07:36] <BenC> mdz: My goal was to make the debian/changelog pretty broad in scope, and use a script to pull all the UBUNTU changes from git-log in a ChangeLog-2.6.15.UBUNTU like Linus does for release
[07:36] <BenC> mdz: all of the real info is in git-log anyway
[07:37] <mdz> BenC: git cannot be a prerequisite for getting useful changelog data any more than CVS is
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[07:37] <BenC> mdz: I wasn't talking about making people use git to get the history
[07:38] <BenC> mdz: my feeling is that this is a new tree, with new source, and new development. It isn't based on anything else, so the changelog was somewhat irrelevant in showing what was actually going on
[07:38] <mdz> BenC: it is based on the breezy tree, which was based on the hoary tree, and so on
[07:39] <mdz> all of those patches you pulled into 2.6.15 were dated and documented in the previous changelog entries
[07:39] <BenC> it's based on the breezy patches, which are listed in git, and will be extracted and installed with the kernel
[07:39] <BenC> actually a lot of them were not all that documented to begin with
[07:40] <BenC> I can pull the previous kernel changelog stuff if you think it's really relevant, but I just didn't see the point when everthing was being reworked and redocumented anyway
[07:40] <mdz> when we get regressions in dapper, we're going to look in the changelog to try to narrow down what happened
[07:40] <mdz> the changelog is now useless for that
[07:40] <BenC> what good is the previous changelog for breezy/dapper regressions in the kernel?
[07:41] <BenC> regressions are usually found with diff, not vi, atleast in these sorts of cases
[07:42] <mdz> you must be joking
[07:42] <BenC> ok, we have a vga16fb regression between breezy and dapper, how will the changelog help?
[07:42] <BenC> I'm not kidding, the changelog doesn't say enough to fix anything like that
[07:43] <mdz> it won't, because you didn't document any of your changes in the changelog
[07:43] <BenC> I didn't change anything
[07:43] <mdz> but in addition to that, you've thrown away all of the previous changelogs for no apparent reason
[07:43] <BenC> I said I would pull them back in
[07:43] <mdz> we didn't throw away the changelogs when we started using baz; I don't see why you want to do that when moving to git
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[07:44] <BenC> with baz, I'm sure you did a mass checking
[07:44] <mdz> if you added or removed any patches when going to 2.6.15, that should be in the changelog
[07:44] <BenC> and not start with a fresh tree and commit each patch/driver individually
[07:44] <mdz> (and I'm sure you did add and remove patches)
[07:45] <BenC> didn't add, but certainly, some patches were obsoleted by upstream
[07:45] <mdz> unionfs?
[07:45] <BenC> well, yeah, unionfs
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[07:45] <slomo> pitti_: are you already working on getting debhelper merged? otherwise i would try it and give it to you for review
[07:46] <seb128> the first one that break all GNOME by merging debhelper and pushing a new dh_gconf because the new gconf win a extra point
[07:46] <seb128> just a way to say to be carreful on that
[07:46] <BenC> mdz: you're right, I could have duplicated all the git log info into debian/changelog, and still can, but it would have added a considerable amount of time to do it
[07:46] <seb128> Debian made a bunch of nontrivial gconf changes
[07:47] <seb128> and updated dh_gconf according to that
[07:47] <seb128> *don't* push a new dh_gconf before we change gconf
[07:47] <BenC> right now, I can get all that info and add it on
[07:47] <seb128> or every app using gconf will blow
[07:47] <mdz> BenC: if you made all of the appropriate notes in git's log, surely it can just be reformatted for changelog
[07:47] <slomo> seb128: ok, you convinced me... i won't touch it ;)
[07:48] <mdz> I've done that with baz logs for ages
[07:48] <BenC> mdz: correct, and my intention was not to flood the debian/changelog, but instead of a seperate changelog that showed all the details
[07:48] <seb128> I'll update gconf next week for information
[07:48] <BenC> *instead have a
[07:49] <mdz> BenC: why would it be any more of a flood than the previous changelog entries?
[07:51] <BenC> it's not, it'll be there in -4
[07:51] <BenC> all of it, previous and current
[07:51] <mdz> thanks
[07:51] <pitti_> slomo: I already merged it last week
[07:52] <slomo> seb128: it's already merged... but didn't build
[07:52] <pitti_> slomo: but we can merge the new version again, it has some fixes
[07:52] <slomo> lol
[07:52] <slomo> ok :)
[07:52] <seb128> pitti_: read what I said
[07:52] <pitti_> slomo: right, it needs some main inclusion love
[07:52] <seb128> pitti_: be warned than the new dh_gconf is likely to break every single app using gconf
[07:52] <seb128> pitti_: since we didn't migrate gconf to use the new script it requires
[07:52] <pitti_> seb128: really? even in compat level 4?
[07:53] <seb128> pitti_: Debian introduced a new gconf-something tool and dh_gconf use it now to register the schemas
[07:53] <seb128> pitti: our gconf is recent enough in version for the test but doesn't has the feature
[07:53] <pitti> seb128: how does that break existing packages which don't use dh_gconf?
[07:53] <pitti> ah, cdbs?
[07:53] <seb128> so yes, every single postinst trying to register a schemas is likely to blow
[07:54] <seb128> pitti: every single GNOME package registring a schemas uses dh_gconf for that, it writes the postinst part
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[07:56] <dholbach> elmo: please sync ocaml from sid, ok to override ubuntu changes
[07:56] <seb128> k, time for dinner 
[07:56] <seb128> bbl
[07:57] <dholbach> bon appetit :)
[07:57] <ogra> was anybody able to build a package that has dbus build deps today ? 
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[07:58] <ogra> i just set up a completely new pbuilder, it still breaks with a message that dbus-1-utils cant be installed
[07:58] <ogra> dholbach, did you build anything dbus related today ? 
[07:58] <dholbach> no, i shouldnt think so
[07:59] <ogra> hmm
[07:59] <ogra> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[07:59] <ogra>   dbus-1-utils: Depends: dbus but it is not going to be installed
[07:59] <ogra> E: Broken packages
[07:59] <ogra> E: Could not satisfy build-dependency.
[07:59] <ogra> no go here ... 
[07:59] <elmo> Riddell: ?
[07:59] <dholbach> if you login to the pbuilder and try to insatll them manually?
[07:59] <ogra> i'll try 
=== ogra wants fatsre disks
[08:00] <ogra> *faster
[08:01] <ogra> hmm, same error
[08:01] <ogra> ahh
[08:01] <ogra> its adduser thats broken
=== ogra screatches head ....
[08:02] <ogra> why does dbus depend on adduser ??
[08:03] <Diziet> Urgh, it looks like I have a bunch of mess to clear up in this merge.
[08:04] <Diziet> By dapper+1 we'd better have a good working hct.
[08:07] <dholbach> elmo: please sync findlib from sid, ok to override our changes
[08:10] <elmo> dholbach: done
[08:10] <elmo> (both)
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[08:11] <dholbach> elmo: thank you very much, if you now sync gmetadom from sid and override our changes, i'm happy :)
[08:11] <dholbach> merci beaucoup
[08:13] <ogra> dholbach, dont upgrade your pbuilder ... its shadow thats broken, pending merge. this will affect a lot of packages ...
[08:14] <dholbach> ogra: thanks for notifying, but it's too late already - slomo and i had the conversation yesterday :)
[08:14] <dholbach> regarding shadow
[08:14] <ogra> oh, ok
[08:14] <slomo> touching /etc/shadow fixes it for now ;)
[08:14] <ogra> slomo nope, not that
[08:14] <ogra> the package shadow is not installable at build time, thats something else
[08:14] <slomo> ah ok... yes
[08:15] <ogra> i had to fix my pbuilder yesterday as well
[08:17] <elmo> dholbach: done too
[08:19] <dholbach> merci
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[08:23] <sistpoty> elmo: could you please add my key (8D7FCA91) to the keyring for universe uploads? (rt.admin.canonical.com #784)
[08:25] <robertj> mvo: are you about? gdebi is b0rk here...sudo --: command not found
[08:25] <dholbach> robertj: sudo not found?
[08:25] <robertj> err something of that sort apparently
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[08:26] <dholbach> robertj: could you look up, what the message is?
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[08:26] <dholbach> robertj: do you have gksu installed?
[08:26] <robertj> I mean that's the message, I'll give you the preceeding when this strace is done
[08:27] <Nafallo> elmo: hi! did you sync ttf2pt1?
[08:28] <xhaker> Kamion, you there? 
[08:29] <xhaker> Kamion, i'm trying rsync -Pz --stats rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/20051114/dapper-install-i386.iso
[08:29] <elmo> Nafallo: nothing to sync?
[08:29] <mvo> robertj: do you have gksudo latest version insalled (from dapper)?
[08:29] <xhaker> and guess what.. doesn't work
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[08:29] <robertj> mvo: I'll check when this is done stracing
[08:30] <slomo> BenC: when will we get a ppc buildable 2.6.15 kernel? ;) and did you get the url to my updated libraw1394?
[08:30] <robertj> gksu is old, upgrading
[08:30] <Nafallo> elmo: oh. you must have done that one earlier then :-). I lost my katie-mail for it somewhere.
[08:31] <Nafallo> elmo: thanx anyway :-)
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[08:32] <Kamion> ogra: I'm fixing shadow, but it's a not-entirely-small job
[08:32] <Kamion> xhaker: the rsync base URL is rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/ not rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/
[08:33] <Kamion> xhaker: you can use 'rsync -av rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/...' to just do a directory listing
[08:34] <xhaker> thank you.. i was already reading some spanish page in the wiki
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[08:38] <ogra> kAMIYES, I READ THE BUG, THANKS FOR THAT
[08:38] <ogra> oops, sorry
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[09:02] <BenC> slomo: -3.3 will get ppc building, and please email me the URL for libraw
[09:03] <slomo> BenC: adress? benc@u.c?
[09:03] <BenC> mvo: ping
[09:03] <BenC> bcollins@u.c
[09:03] <hunger> BenC: You are the kernel person of ubuntu, aren't you?
[09:04] <BenC> hunger: that's what they told me in Montreal, so who am I to argue :)
[09:04] <hunger> BenC: Any plans for xen kernels yet once that gets into the vanilla kernel tree?
[09:05] <mvo> BenC: pong
[09:05] <slomo> BenC: mail sent
[09:05] <hunger> BenC: I'm asking as I am rolling xen debs just now:-)
[09:05] <BenC> mvo: amd64 kernels at p.u.c/~bcollins/2.6.15/
[09:05] <BenC> hunger: can you elaborate on what xen is?
[09:06] <BenC> and I'm guessing that if it's not in 2.6.15 yet, it wont get in, so it's very doubtful it will be a dapper feature
[09:06] <mvo> BenC: downloading now
[09:06] <hunger> BenC: Xen is basically a microkernel that provides a virtual architecture for other OS kernels to run on concurrently.
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[09:06] <BenC> hunger: not going to happen for dapper, I'm sure
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[09:07] <hunger> BenC: Redhat and suse are trying to get that into vanilla kernels.
[09:07] <BenC> hunger: dapper+1, if you want it, you should start specing it now :)
[09:07] <hunger> BenC: Yes, I would have been surprised if it did.
[09:07] <Riddell> elmo: hi
[09:07] <hunger> BenC: There is a spec. Xen even used to be a breezygoal.
[09:08] <elmo> Riddell: what's the deal with gettext-kde?  it got uploaded once, we discussed it on IRC (unfortunately I forget, and didn't record the details), and it ended up getting REJECTED.  now it's back?
[09:08] <BenC> ah
[09:08] <ogra> BenC, it was dropped... it was a SoC bounty that didnt work out right ... 
=== hunger should write up his thoughts on Xen in ubuntu and mail that to the list.
=== Nafallo upgrades to that amd64 kernel BenC had URL to.
[09:08] <hunger> ogra: It was?
[09:08] <ogra> and fabbione has some objections against xen iirc
[09:08] <BenC> Nafallo: yeah, let me know how it works out for you too
[09:08] <ogra> hunger, yup
[09:09] <hunger> ogra: Oh, SoC bounty, read ubuntu bounty:-)
[09:09] <Riddell> elmo: it was rejected in the hope that we might be able to use the normal gettext.  discussed with carlos as UBZ that isn't possible and the best way is to just use this version 
[09:09] <BenC> hunger: find the spec on wiki.u.c and update that
[09:09] <hunger> ogra: Anyway, what are the feelings about xen? I get mixed signals on it;-)
[09:10] <BenC> hunger: is it anything like UM?
[09:10] <hunger> ogra: Some people seem to be seriously in favour of it, others seem to be very critical.
[09:10] <ogra> hunger, better talk to fabbione ... i'm no kernel guy ... but he was seeing some issues with it ...
[09:10] <hunger> BenC: Somewhat... It has stronger separation between the OS kernels.
[09:10] <hunger> BenC: and it can run more than linux:-)
[09:11] <BenC> sounds interesting
[09:11] <BenC> hunger: how do suse and redhat support this in their products?
[09:11] <hunger> BenC: It is. SuSE, Redhat and IBM are pushing it.
[09:11] <BenC> are they shipping anything based on it yet?
[09:11] <Riddell> elmo: shall I re-upload?
[09:12] <hunger> BenC: IIRC FC4 has it, and I heared opensuse supports it as well.
[09:12] <elmo> Riddell: why isn't it possible?  
[09:12] <BenC> so they install xen first, and then their OS becomes an instance of xen?
[09:13] <hunger> BenC: I doubt that they will support it fully before they get it into the vanilla kernel.
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[09:13] <BenC> or does xen require Linux to run
[09:13] <hunger> BenC: redhat assumes a timeframe of about 2 month for that. We will see how realistic that is.
[09:13] <BenC> 2 months is right about when 2.6.16 devel will open up :)
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[09:14] <hunger> BenC: Xen is a microkernel. You load that via grub plus linux (plus initrd).
[09:14] <BenC> they need to hit that 2 week window when 2.6.16 starts taking patches
[09:14] <hunger> BenC: The linux kernel is adapted to run on the Xen hypervisor instead of the real hardware.
[09:14] <Riddell> elmo: because the patch used by kde is not portable to current gettext
[09:14] <BenC> guess I'll read up on it when it hits the kernel
[09:15] <BenC> sounds like it's doing mainframe work in software :)
[09:15] <hunger> BenC: The new intel and amd cpus have support for that in HW:-)
[09:16] <elmo> Riddell: ok, reupload for now if you want
[09:16] <Riddell> elmo: thanks
[09:16] <hunger> BenC: Xen can even run windows next to linux on such boxes:-)
[09:16] <elmo> Xen can't run standard windows
[09:16] <hunger> BenC: No need for changes to the OS kernel if the CPU extensions are there;-)
[09:16] <BenC> so how do you switch between consoles of such machines, and does it support things down to like video accel (GL) and such?
[09:17] <hunger> elmo: It can on VMX-enabled CPUs.
[09:17] <elmo> hunger: in Xen 2?
[09:18] <hunger> BenC: You assign the HW to one virtual machine. That has full access and can export that as virtual devices if needed (and supported).
[09:18] <hunger> elmo: No. Xen 3 has that kind of support in the works.
[09:18] <elmo> right, and Xen 3 isn't out yet, and won't be for Dapper timeframe
[09:18] <hunger> elmo: From what I read they want to release that in about 2 month).
[09:19] <hunger> elmo: Sure. I am not interested in getting xen into dapper.
[09:19] <hunger> elmo: I am just curious whether there is interesst with other people to get it into dapper+x (whenever xen makes it into the vanilla kernel).
[09:20] <slomo> hunger: i'm interested in xen ;)
[09:21] <BenC> hunger: short answer is, if people are interested, it will get spec'd at the developer summit for that release
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[09:23] <hunger> BenC: Good answer. So basically I shouldn't bother till there is a spec for a release?
[09:23] <BenC> hunger: well, you should bother to do the spec if you are that interested :)
[09:24] <BenC> get it prepared for dapper+n
[09:25] <hunger> BenC: Good... so I'll try to think about how to do it and ask people for there oppinion on how to do it till then.
[09:27] <mvo> BenC: a nice oops, but no freeze :)
[09:27] <mvo> BenC: zd1211
[09:27] <BenC> mvo: still an oops?
[09:27] <BenC> can you email it to me?
[09:27] <BenC> actually, that's right, it froze before
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[09:32] <Kamion> mdz: are we going to promote hplip to main, then? (re the earlier discussion)
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[09:33] <mvo> BenC: mail send
[09:33] <BenC> mvo: thanks
[09:34] <hunger_> Sorry, lost my connection.
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[09:34] <dholbach> wb seb :)
[09:34] <Nafallo> are we talking about hplip in ubuntu-desktop or just supported?
=== Nafallo think it would be ugly to bring in qt3 on his nice gtk-system :-P
[09:35] <Kamion> Nafallo: main
[09:36] <hunger_> Hi Kamion.
[09:36] <Kamion> desktop is rather definitely a subset of main
[09:36] <Kamion> hi
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[09:36] <Nafallo> for me main = desktop+standard+minimal+ship+supported :-)
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[09:38] <Pazzo> hi all! my Breezy desktop is using LOTS of memory and as I don't like it to do so I tried to discover who is gonna wast all my memory...
[09:40] <Pazzo> ...I'm running gnome, 8 desktops with evolution, xchat, lots of terminals, notepads, thunderbird as a newsreader, amule from time to time, oo2 etc...
[09:40] <BenC> mvo: ok, it doesn't like GFP_DMA when it has to grow the slab...not sure what to do here
[09:40] <BenC> mvo: in all honesty, I think this is an amd64 bug (I've seen the dma problem in other drivers)
[09:41] <Pazzo> I discovered that most memory is used by two shared libraries, both part of libpango1.0-0
[09:41] <Pazzo> (and probably caused by firefox to use all this memory)
[09:42] <Pazzo> forgot to mention: there are also some firefoxes running on this 8 virtual desktops, each of them with lots of tabs
[09:42] <mdz> Kamion: currently I don't see any reason not to
[09:42] <mdz> Kamion: might be good to check with doko first
[09:42] <Pazzo> currently memstat shows me:
[09:42] <Pazzo> 426836k: PID  4607 (/usr/lib/pango/1.4.0/modules/pango-basic-fc.so)
[09:42] <Pazzo> 426836k: PID  4607 (/usr/lib/pango/1.4.0/modules/pango-basic-fc.so)
[09:43] <Pazzo> 256692k: PID 18807 (/usr/lib/pango/1.4.0/modules/pango-thai-fc.so)
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[09:43] <Pazzo> (sorry for posting the same line twice)
[09:43] <hunger_> Pazzo: So grab the sources and fix it:-)
[09:43] <mvo> BenC: no problem, if you need more testing, let me know
[09:44] <Pazzo> hunger_: step by step please :)
[09:44] <Pazzo> I'm here to find out if someone else has the same issue
[09:44] <Pazzo> I know that firefox uses a lot of memory - but that's too much
[09:44] <hunger_> Pazzo: I'd guess those modules contain unicode informations (wild guess only!).
[09:45] <Pazzo> and it seems kinda strange to me that libpango is atm using >750 megs of ram on my host
[09:45] <hunger_> Pazzo: Maybe you could try to avoid surfing to thai sites? ;-)
[09:45] <Pazzo> no thai site, sorry
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[09:46] <Pazzo> I'm wondering about the pango-thai-fc.so too!?
[09:46] <hunger_> Pazzo: Well, I have no real clue what goes wrong here.
[09:46] <Kamion> doko_: ^-- hplip in main?
[09:48] <Kamion> Nafallo: incomplete list - but anyway, main is the union of the 'all' outputs from germinate for the ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu, and ubuntu-server seeds for all architectures
[09:48] <Kamion> Nafallo: (incomplete> you were missing 'live', 'installer', 'casper', and as of this afternoon 'boot')
[09:48] <hunger_> Pazzo: I get the basic-fc loaded as well. uses about 8k.
[09:49] <Nafallo> Kamion: ah, right :-).
[09:49] <Pazzo> hunger_: may be I should post a bug report regarding this somewhere?
[09:51] <dholbach> "somewhere" would be upstream rather than ubuntu and looking at recent  blog entries, they're working on it
[09:51] <hunger_> Pazzo: You can always put it into gnome's bugzilla.
[09:52] <Pazzo> closed all firefoxes, pango calmed down
[09:52] <Pazzo> but there is also:
[09:52] <Pazzo>  429520k: PID  4607 (/usr/share/locale-langpack/de/LC_MESSAGES/glib20.mo)
[09:53] <Pazzo> hmm... cool, this one is caused by amule
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[09:53] <hunger_> memstat gives a total mem usage of ~280MiB here:-)
[09:54] <Pazzo> what does amule do with >400mb langpack???
[09:54] <hunger_> Pazzo: No idea.
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[09:55] <Pazzo> and evolution has 181320k => /usr/share/locale-langpack/de/LC_MESSAGES/gnome-vfs-2.0.mo
[09:55] <seb128> how do you get those numbers?
[09:56] <hunger_> Pazzo: How much RAM is on your system?
[09:56] <Pazzo> seb128: memstat
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[09:56] <Pazzo> hunger_: 1gb + 1gb swap
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[09:57] <Pazzo>  430152k: PID  4607 (/usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-bitstream-vera/VeraSe.ttf)
[09:57] <Pazzo> ????
[09:57] <Pazzo> (4607 -> amule)
[09:59] <hunger_> Pazzo: none of the fonts loaded here needs more than 8MiB. VeraSe.ttf is 80kiB.
[09:59] <hunger_> Pazzo: actually only 60. You are doing something wrong:-)
[10:00] <sistpoty> seb128: memstab seems to read /proc/%d/maps and calculate hi-lo from the inode
[10:00] <sistpoty> memstat even
[10:00] <Pazzo> forget it - amule is using 430152k - don't know why it shows the font
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[10:02] <Pazzo> amule really eats lots of memory - but that's ok, I don't need it and don't care about
[10:03] <Pazzo> but wth is firefox eating that much memory?
[10:04] <neuralis> Pazzo, firefox is very sloppy with deallocating memory -- if you use it for long enough without closing the entire application, it'll eat a LOT of ram.
[10:04] <Pazzo> extensions loaded: webdeveloper, adblock, english & german language pack, dom inspector
[10:05] <Pazzo> neuralis: exactly - that's what I have here :(
[10:05] <Pazzo> I'm using 8 virtual desktops, sometimes also more of them
[10:05] <Pazzo> lots of terminals, notepads, OOo, evolution etc
[10:06] <Pazzo> and 1-2 firefox windows on 3-4 desktops
[10:06] <Pazzo> lots of tabs in each firefox
[10:07] <Pazzo> this system is running 24 hours a day and I really hate it to close 6-7 firefoxes with ~50 tabs more times a day to free my memory
[10:07] <Pazzo> that's evil
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[10:08] <Nafallo> BenC: you had rt2500, right? have you got a working diod when it's ifconfig up'd? :-)
[10:08] <Pazzo> before installing ubuntu I have been running debian sarge (was "testing" at this time" for something like a year - and I didn't have this problems there
[10:08] <lucas> Nafallo: rt2500 is the driver/chipset, not the card, and this might depend on the card
[10:09] <lucas> Nafallo: I have a rt2500 pcmcia card, and I have a led that tells me it's ifuped
[10:09] <Nafallo> lucas: worked with the rt2500-driver. doesn't with rt2x00.
[10:10] <lucas> I'm not sure of the one I use. I use the one in breezy.
[10:10] <Nafallo> seems network-manager can't see the card either :-/.
[10:10] <Nafallo> lucas: breezy == rt2500
[10:11] <BenC> Nafallo: rt2500pci only sort of works for me
[10:11] <BenC> Naffallo: it connects to the AP, but drops a lot of packets, and eventually stops working
[10:11] <Nafallo> I wish I had an AP to test it with...
[10:11] <Nafallo> network-manager doesn't recognise the card anyway :-P
[10:12] <BenC> does iwconfig recognize it?
[10:12] <Nafallo> yes
[10:12] <Nafallo> ehm
[10:13] <Nafallo> Quality=100/0
[10:13] <BenC> if you can ever test it, I'd be interested in the results
[10:13] <Nafallo> I will put WRT54G on my xmas wishlist then ;-)
[10:14] <Nafallo> how long to we have before we have to revert back to rt2500 (and rt2400, rt2570)?
[10:15] <BenC> not long
[10:17] <Kamion> mdz: I'm off to bed soon, and will be up for the distro team meeting tomorrow morning - any chance you could mobilise people in the meantime to fix enough uninstallables to get CD builds working?
[10:17] <dholbach> i'm off now, see you tomorrow
[10:19] <daniels> oh god, distro team meeting
[10:19] <daniels> i'd forgotten about that
[10:20] <Nafallo> daniels: yes. you have stuff to do right now? I could need your help getting tightvnc synced. I can't get it to find the fonts by default :-/.
[10:21] <Nafallo> s/synced/synced\ or\ merged/
[10:21] <Nafallo> why is dapper-changes so slow this evening?
[10:22] <Mithrandir> doko_/Kamion: Not _right now_, but yes, I'm working on shadow.  I was intending to do it tomorrow, really.
[10:23] <elmo> shadow's done?
[10:23] <daniels> Nafallo: there's a DefaultFontPath define
[10:23] <elmo>     shadow | 1:4.0.13-6ubuntu1 |        dapper | source
[10:23] <Mithrandir> elmo: possibly, I just came home.
[10:23] <daniels> Nafallo: the delta from 1.2.9-6{,ubuntu1} should be pretty tiny and portable; what's up?
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[10:24] <mdz> Kamion: send me a hit list if you have one
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[10:24] <Nafallo> daniels: I used the merged version, which looks like it keeps your patch. that one has the correct dirs but tightvncserver still errors out the same way as in that bugreport :-/.
[10:25] <daniels> Nafallo: hrm
[10:25] <Nafallo> indeed :-)
[10:25] <Simira> daniels: have you fixed my bug yet? I'm still using Windows XP....
[10:26] <Kamion> Mithrandir: too late, done :)
[10:26] <Kamion> Mithrandir: sorry if I stepped on your toes, but was urgent
[10:26] <daniels> Simira: yeah, worked out what it was finaly
[10:26] <daniels> Simira: (well, janimo caught it before I got to it)
[10:26] <dholbach> bye
[10:27] <daniels> Simira: Option "Accel" in the Device section should fix it
[10:27] <Mithrandir> Kamion: no problem. Reason it took a little was I was waiting for a fix from bubulle which hit two days or so ago and I was working on something else yesterday (iirc).
[10:27] <daniels> dh	night
[10:27] <dholbach> bye daniels
[10:27] <daniels> Nafallo: so if you vim the binary, do you see /usr/share/X11/fonts/misc?
[10:27] <Kamion> mdz: I don't - my only comments are to wait until shadow builds everywhere before doing serious triage (adduser uninstallability takes out a bunch of stuff), and that the curl uninstallables need an inclusion report for ca-certificates (or modification of curl)
[10:27] <Mithrandir> Kamion: any excellent ideas what to do about "code which debconf plugins might need, but shouldn't go into the core"?  (See get_text_{height,width} in src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c for an example.
[10:28] <Kamion> Mithrandir: not tonight :)
[10:29] <Nafallo> daniels: hmm, no. if (!$fontPath) {
[10:29] <Nafallo>   $fontPath = "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/,". etc...
[10:30] <Keybuk> is something up with Bugzilla?
[10:31] <Keybuk> it's stalling when getting pages
[10:32] <Kamion> Keybuk: macquarie's load is 13
[10:32] <Keybuk> sweet
[10:33] <Seveas> Ben Collins has been flooding the zilla
[10:33] <Kamion> Seveas: that's hardly the problem
[10:33] <Seveas> kernel bug weeding
[10:33] <Kamion> Keybuk: jamesh has been doing bzr imports or something like that on macquarie
[10:33] <HiddenWolf> Seveas, 700 bugs only, say 2000 mails. :P
[10:33] <Kamion> there's some enormous gpg operation happening at the moment
[10:34] <Seveas> gpg --recv-keys * 
[10:34] <Seveas> :)
[10:34] <Kamion> pretty much
[10:34] <elmo> seriously?
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[10:35] <daniels> Nafallo: ah, yeah
[10:35] <daniels> Nafallo: that'd do it :) i fixed it in the X server, not in the Perl script
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[10:35] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, the gpg stuff and a buildbot instance
[10:36] <HiddenWolf> So bugzilla to malone is still being prepared?
[10:36] <Nafallo> daniels: so the bug was never really closed then? ;-)
[10:36] <Kamion> it's niced, but ...
[10:36] <mvo> Keybuk: mind if I upload a dhcp3-client that fixes #10174?
[10:36] <Kamion> the stuff jamesh is doing *could* be related to bugzilla-to-malone (he's been working on that), although I don't immediately see how
[10:37] <daniels> Nafallo: *cough*
[10:37] <Nafallo> :-)
[10:37] <Simira> daniels: hum, I don't think I got your answer, I got disconnected
[10:37] <Nafallo> good to know. been wondering what went wrong with the sync :-)
[10:37] <lifeless> Kamion: its check pending reviews
[10:37] <Keybuk> mvo: which bug is that?  Bugzilla won't tell me this week
[10:37] <lifeless> Kamion: which is workflow for launchpad
[10:37] <Keybuk> is that the "dhclient tries to do lo too" one?
[10:38] <Kamion> lifeless: that kind of load on macquarie seriously impairs the distro team's work
[10:38] <mvo> Keybuk: dhclient without arguments removes ipv4 adress from loopback
[10:38] <lifeless> stub is going a baz0import
[10:38] <Keybuk> mvo: yeah, go for it -- I don't have any particular hold over that
[10:38] <lifeless> Kamion: its load average 2.5
=== Kamion -> bed
[10:38] <mvo> Keybuk: ok, thanks. I wanted to ask first because it's assigned to you
[10:39] <Keybuk> make sure it still works with pitti's recent derooting frenzy
[10:39] <lifeless> Kamion: surely thats not enough to be a problem ?
[10:39] <Kamion> lifeless: it wasn't earlier, and bugzilla has been running like a drain most of today
[10:39] <lifeless> ah.
[10:39] <mvo> Keybuk: will do, thanks
[10:39] <lifeless> so its bugzilla being slow you are concerned about ?
[10:39] <Kamion> yes
[10:39] <Kamion> anyway, I shall let others be concerned about it while I sleep :)
[10:39] <lifeless> woo boy you gpnna love malone ;)
=== mvo suspects it's a secret plot to make the switch easier for us
[10:40] <lifeless> oh, and a pqm test run.
=== seb128 took that as a bug triage vacancy
[10:40] <seb128> no way to do any bug triage with this slowness anyway
[10:41] <HiddenWolf> seb128, you've got gnome.org bugzilla to work with. :P
[10:41] <lucas> the wiki is often slow too
[10:41] <daniels> Simira: Option "Accel" in the Device section should fix it for you
[10:41] <lucas> can't define "often" and "too" tho ;)
[10:42] <seb128> bugzilla take like 1min to load a page atm
[10:42] <seb128> and that's not to commit changes, just to open a bug
[10:42] <mdz> siretart: acpi-support approved, thanks
[10:43] <lifeless> ah, macquarie, not hcinstrap. my bad. ,ore caffiene please
[10:43] <Simira> daniels: I'll try then *reboots*
[10:43] <lifeless> ok, it is multiple concurrent debzilla syncs
[10:43] <lifeless> GARH.
[10:44] <lifeless> I hope the others are blocked on acquiring the lock.
[10:45] <elmo> it's mostly that insane gpg import
[10:45] <lifeless> yes
[10:45] <elmo> I just hope he's using keyserver.ubuntu.com :(
[10:45] <lifeless> I think I recognize that as the trusted key scan
[10:46] <Seveas> seb128, wuss, I did bug triage today (through the mailinglist and on average 5 bugzilla pages loading):)
[10:46] <seb128> Seveas: nice :)
[10:46] <seb128> I didn't :p
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[10:50] <Keybuk> elmo: could there be a slight accident on macuqarie, that we could blame on the OOM killer, and that unfortunately leaves lock files lying around
[10:50] <Keybuk> waiting five minutes for a bug status change to submit is ... irritating
[10:50] <elmo> I think there could be a kill -STOP accident
[10:54] <Keybuk> oh, that's much better
=== mvo goes to bed now
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[11:08] <Simira> daniels : yay, seems to work! Only gdm didn't restart properly. But I can live with that
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[11:18] <daniels> Nafallo: cool
[11:21] <Stormx2> hey
[11:21] <Stormx2> are there any plans for a graphical installer for dapper?
[11:21] <Mithrandir> yes
[11:21] <Stormx2> Fedora Core Style?
[11:21] <Nafallo> daniels: can't get it to work whatever I do with that file. any other ideas? :-)
[11:22] <HiddenWolf> Stormx2, no, livecd-based
[11:23] <Stormx2> HiddenWolf: I wouldn't really know how that would work! ^.^
[11:23] <HiddenWolf> Stormx2, search the wiki for ubuntuexpress
[11:24] <Stormx2> HiddenWolf: OK :)
[11:26] <Simira> juhuu, I work!
[11:26] <HiddenWolf> Simira, is that unusual for you?
=== HiddenWolf hides
[11:27] <Simira> HiddenWolf : somewhat
[11:27] <Nafallo> hehe
[11:28] <Simira> hm, can I make my webcam work as well? Then it would really make my day...
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[11:41] <Simira> Mithrandir : I don't know what I'm doing. You'd better come help me out on this one
[11:42] <Simira> Mithrandir : the script said a lot of things I didn't understand
[11:45] <slomo_> daniels: i can confirm bugzilla #18975 and that the workaround actually fixes the problem... so maybe adding these symlinks is worth a thought :)
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[11:54] <daniels> Nafallo: hrm, not sure, sorry
[11:54] <daniels> slomo_: yes, been meaning to investigate what's up with that one, but we do have a known workaround
[11:55] <Nafallo> daniels: want me to upload anyway since it's not more broken than before? ;-)
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[11:55] <HiddenWolf> daniels, what's the status of X nowadays? somewhere halfway between breezy and sanity?
[11:55] <Nafallo> BenC: wb :-)
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[11:56] <daniels> HiddenWolf: naf	sure, why not ;)
[11:56] <daniels> hidd	still getting there, yeah
[11:56] <BenC> terrible, gdm is too close to gpm when you want to do "/etc/init.d/gpm restart"
[11:56] <HiddenWolf> daniels, any serious breakage coming up? ;)
[11:56] <Mithrandir> BenC: easy fix, don't use gpm.
[11:57] <BenC> I can't live without gpm
[11:57] <daniels> HiddenWolf: nah, not that I'm aware of
[11:57] <BenC> it's my console buddy
[11:57] <daniels> certainly nothing on the breezy level of breakage
[11:57] <daniels> i'd get shot by the community people and fired by mdz
[11:57] <Mithrandir> BenC: get rid of the console. :-)
[11:57] <HiddenWolf> daniels, that is sad news. :P
[11:57] <slomo_> daniels: probably some hardcoded paths... i think this workaround is the only way to get it working again without yelling upstream
[11:58] <Stormx2> Hey dev guys, what can I do for dev-wise. Should I go and learn a scripting language like Python?
[11:58] <BenC> Mithrandir: what, and lose touch with my roots? :)
[11:58] <BenC> Stormx2: see topic
[11:59] <Stormx2> Repo maintainers, I saw.
[11:59] <BenC> HelpingWithBugs is what I was talking about :)
[12:00] <BenC> or do you mean dev-wise as in learning to be a developer?
[12:00] <Stormx2> Yeah
[12:00] <Stormx2> I mean I've coded before, PHP-Wise
[12:01] <BenC> learn something useful, like C
[12:01] <tseng> -1 Flamebait?
[12:02] <BenC> it wasn't meant to belittle other languages, just that C is so broad in scope
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