[12:06] <raphink> just added one more :)
[12:08] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: ping
[12:18] <siretart> Kmirno_AWAY: or Mirno: Okay, I think that has been enough time for other motus to comment on the opera situation. According to what I have read, I THINK that redistribution is okay for multiverse. So I'd say lets try it, as nobody objected so far
[12:19] <siretart> Kmirno_AWAY: It would be nice if your contributor, who is willing to maintain the package would show us his package, in order to get it uploaded to ubuntu
[12:20] <siretart> Kmirno_AWAY: and to be honest, I think we have even harier stuff in multiverse: think of packageslike j2re1.4 or acroread :/
[12:21] <siretart> Kmirno_AWAY: Sorry for the late answer, but I wanted to give other the chance to comment on the situation
[12:21] <sivang> bah
[12:21] <sivang> (hi all)
[12:21] <sivang> java is evil :)
[12:21] <siretart> hi sivang
[12:21] <sivang> hey siretart , how are stuff going?
[12:22] <siretart> sivang: a bit tired, I just returned from the cinema and I'm reading my emails. You are you?
[12:22] <siretart> argl. I mean: How are you?
[12:23] <sivang> siretart: pretty fine, finally got my desktop computer at my new apartment, and it's already set up with dapper chroot , I hope to have less hours at work following week so I will be finally able to help with the merges...
[12:23] <sivang> siretart: (I recently moved)
[12:23] <siretart> :)
[12:23] <sivang> yah, I've been talking much about it and didn't have any time at all to contribute on that :-(
[12:24] <LaserJock> so is the MOTU responsible for Multiverse too?
[12:24] <siretart> LaserJock: sure
[12:25] <sivang> siretart: what drives did you order? :)
[12:25] <sivang> siretart: is this something new? I never heared of snapshotted chroots with lvm :)
[12:25] <LaserJock> siretart: what about restricted?
[12:26] <Nafallo> main+restricted == supported == not us
[12:27] <siretart> LaserJock: restricted are just a few package, you don't want to mess with them ;) (they are for main uploaders only)
[12:27] <siretart> sivang: 2 s-ata drives, nothing spectacular
[12:27] <LaserJock> ah, ok so it is really MOTU&M
[12:27] <siretart> sivang: lvm2 has a nice feature of snapshotting volumes. It has been on my list for a long time :)
[12:32] <sivang> siretart: wow cool, I have a big sata drive (120gb) I might use this as well :)
[12:33] <siretart> okay folks, I'm off for today. - gn8, cu tomorrow!
[01:12] <raphink> can someone review my packages pls ? :)
[01:25] <sistpoty> gn8 Nafallo
[01:43] <sistpoty> raphink: what package?
[01:44] <raphink> sistpoty: i've uploaded 4 lately
[01:44] <sistpoty> raphink: to revu?
[01:44] <raphink> I think the most achieved ones are kio-sword and knmap
[01:44] <raphink> toutf8 is a very very small one
[01:44] <raphink> should take 5 seconds to be checked ;)
[01:45] <sistpoty> raphink: ok, I'll have a look... ;)
[01:45] <raphink> thanks sistpoty :)
[01:45] <raphink> for kim though, there are mans missing... otherwise I think it's fine
[01:54] <crimsun> your goal really should be to get it into Debian, which will pretty much need a man page
[01:55] <raphink> ok
[01:55] <raphink> well the thing is that kim is a collection of bash scripts
[01:55] <raphink> so I have to find out how to write manpages for console scripts
[01:55] <raphink> and there are 14 of them in this package
[02:02] <Kyral> well I fubar'd this time
[02:04] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: pong
[02:04] <sistpoty> wb :)
[02:04] <Kyral> Moved the root FS and now I'm being introduced to recovering GRUB from a Chroot
[02:04] <bmonty_laptop> hi sistpoty
[02:05] <minghua> hi bmonty_laptop, I've added some comments in the fam merge bug
[02:05] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: I hope you've seen it
[02:06] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: yeah I saw, I'm trying to figure out what happened.
[02:06] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: the shared library name issue is quite tricky, and we'd better get it right
[02:06] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: agreed, I spent most of my time checking on that, I'm not sure how the maintainer name got messed up
[02:07] <minghua> in short, fam uses C++, but only exports C ABI, so no name change is necessary
[02:07] <bmonty_laptop> binary packages should be limfam0 and libfam-dev
[02:07] <minghua> but breezy shipped libfam0 anyway, so we probably have more problems than debian
[02:08] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: maybe because debian changed maintainer between the breezy merge and the dapper merge?
[02:08] <bmonty_laptop> maybe, I gotta get these diffs straight in my head again
[02:09] <raphink> thanks sistpoty
[02:09] <sistpoty> raphink: I'll review another one... but then I need to go to bed ;)
[02:09] <Kyral> grr damn GRUB
[02:09] <raphink> ok sistpoty :)
[02:12] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: I must have been confused earlier, the more I look at this, the more I am thinking fam is a sync
[02:13] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: what about the LSB init script changes?
[02:13] <bmonty_laptop> the MoM merge is weird
[02:14] <bmonty_laptop> ah yes, that is why I did the patch earlier
[02:14] <bmonty_laptop> no I remember :)
[02:14] <sistpoty> raphink: please limit line length in debian/changelog to 80 chars (kio-sword)
[02:14] <raphink> ok
[02:15] <sistpoty> back in 5 mins
[02:15] <raphink> :)
[02:15] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: now I just need to figure out why the control file got messed up
[02:16] <raphink> what is longer than 80 chars in kio-sword sistpoty ?
[02:16] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: If the MoM merge doesn't look good, I usually just look at the ubuntu changes (as it's supposed to be small), and try to apply relevant part to the sid version
[02:17] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: that way things seem to be clearer to me.  but of course, that's just my personal preference
[02:17] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: I used the MoM merged package and tested the build/install with that.
[02:18] <bmonty_laptop> looks like MoM dropped some control file changes and I missed that (except for automake1.9 build dep)
[02:19] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: ubuntu changed the priority, so that's perhaps why MoM was confused
[02:20] <minghua> (because it loses the diff context)
[02:21] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: the main reason I wrote that comment, though, is to alert you that we may want the name libfam0c102 for dapper
[02:22] <sistpoty> raphink: in debian/changelog the entry "* Patch 01 fixes stricmp [...] "
[02:22] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: I thought we were getting away from those names
[02:22] <raphink> oh yeah changelog sorry sistpoty, ok
[02:22] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: no, as I've said, fam doesn't export C++ ABI at all
[02:22] <raphink> sistpoty: shall I add newlines, or just try to cut it?
[02:23] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: so Debian probably will keep the name, see the debian bug report I mentioned
[02:23] <sistpoty> raphink: just add newlines...
[02:23] <raphink> ok sistpoty, so just as in the description in control :)
[02:25] <sistpoty> raphink: in control only the description should not be longer than 80 chars... build-depends must be in one line
[02:26] <raphink> yes
[02:26] <raphink> that's what I meant
[02:26] <sistpoty> ok
[02:26] <raphink> so I do just as for the description in control that's what I meant ;)
[02:26] <sistpoty> hehe ;)
[02:28] <sistpoty> ok, i need some sleep now. gn8
[02:29] <raphink> ok
[02:29] <raphink> good night sistpoty :)
[02:29] <raphink> thank you for your reviews :)
[02:29] <sistpoty> np ;)
[02:38] <Kyral> Well that isn't an experiance I want to go through again
[03:12] <Kyral> hey slomo
[03:23] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: I'm pretty sure that we want our fam binary packages to be libfam0 and libfam-dev
[03:37] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: okay
[03:38] <minghua> bmonty_laptop: I just want to make sure you are aware of this issue
[03:38] <bmonty_laptop> thanks for pointing it out
[03:39] <bmonty_laptop> I'm taking the libfam0c102 references out of the control file
[04:32] <bmonty_laptop> minghua: I just put a new debdiff on #4574, can you take a look at it please?
[06:47] <zakame> afternoon all :)
[06:48] <crimsun> 'afternoon
[06:59] <Burgundavia> did the MOTUs ever decide on a logo?
[07:02] <zakame> hmmm, that would be nice :)
[07:04] <Burgundavia> http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=motulogo4fe.png
[07:09] <zakame> ooh!
[07:09] <Burgundavia> that is old
[07:11] <zakame> brb
[08:37] <zakame> hi again :)
[08:41] <zakame> hmmm, is libjack0.100.0-dev still unsynced in ia64?
[09:08] <zakame> can anyone please check bug 4090 , thanks in advance :)
[09:09] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4090: gtkpbbuttons: merge new debian version Fix req. for: gtkpbbuttons (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: MOTU Merge Team, Status: PendingUpload http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4090
[09:10] <ajmitch> zakame: why'd you update the standards version?
[09:10] <ajmitch> it's unnecessary & adds extra noise
[09:11] <ajmitch> and this..
[09:11] <ajmitch> -Architecture: all
[09:11] <ajmitch> +Architecture: powerpc
[09:11] <ajmitch> why?
[09:11] <zakame> ajmitch: its powerpc specific, it won't build on all
[09:12] <ajmitch> ok
[09:14] <ajmitch> at least drop the standards version change, it's not needed
[09:14] <ajmitch> the 4th digit is for typos & similar minor changes only
[09:15] <zakame> hmm
[09:17] <zakame> is it not desirable to keep Standards-Version in sync with the latest debian-policy version?
[09:52] <zakame> wb Seveas
[09:53] <Seveas> ty
[09:57] <Kmirno_AWAY> siretart: there is no one submiting a package, only  people asking for it. I was going to simply add the bnaries from Opera website
[09:58] <Kmirno_AWAY> siretart: PLF doesn't require source only packages
[09:58] <zakame> plf?
[09:59] <Kmirno_AWAY> zakame: http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/doc/plf => Pinguin Liberation Front for Ubuntu (http://plf.zarb.org about PLF general and for mandriva)
[10:00] <Kmirno_AWAY> zakame: we provide stuff like w32codecs libdvdcss2
[10:00] <siretart> Kmirno_AWAY: you really should
[10:00] <siretart> Kmirno_AWAY: even if only binaries are copied
[10:00] <siretart> morning
[10:00] <siretart> hey ajmitch!
[10:00] <Kmirno_AWAY> siretart: we we really don't :) I put sourepackages with binaries when avaible if not this is not blocking..
[10:00] <ajmitch> hi
[10:01] <siretart> Kmirno: how do you ensure that your binaries do not contain malicous software when you cannot rebuild it yourself?
[10:01] <Kmirno> siretart: we don't
[10:02] <siretart> morning daniel!
[10:02] <siretart> Kmirno: thats really sad :(
[10:02] <ajmitch> dholbach!
[10:02] <dholbach> hey andrew, reinhard! :)
[10:02] <zakame> Kmirno: ooh!
[10:03] <Kmirno> siretart: We don't have access to Opera source code nor to skype source code, makeing a soruce package that provides the binaries and think it's safe .. is a complete nonsense.
[10:03] <zakame> hi dholbach :D
[10:03] <dholbach> hi zakame :)
[10:03] <dholbach> hi everybody else
[10:03] <freeflying> dose who maintain package of xorg
[10:03] <siretart> Kmirno: even then one could verify if the md5sums of the binaries match from those distributed by opera or skype or whatever
[10:04] <siretart> Kmirno: I rather fear your package submitter than the original origins (which I fear too, but not that much)
[10:04] <siretart> submitters
[10:05] <Kmirno> siretart: packages are taken directly from the vendor same place as normal binaries ..  If it does malicious people will blame Opera, if I or someone else redoes a package and it does malicious people will blame me.
[10:06] <Kmirno> siretart: PLF is just falicating access no modifications for vendor binaries when can be avoided.
[10:06] <Kmirno> Tonio_: siretart said they'll try to get Opera into MOTU.
[10:06] <siretart> Kmirno: now you confuse me: do you take the original .debs distributed by opera?
[10:06] <Kmirno> siretart: yes
[10:06] <Tonio_> Kmirno: hi, thanks, that's a good news;)
[10:07] <Tonio_> according to the redistribution licence, I haven't seen something that would obviously forbid that.
[10:07] <crimsun> opera updates their debs fairly regularly, though
[10:07] <Tonio_> anyway, that's a very good news
[10:07] <siretart> Kmirno: same for skype?
[10:08] <Tonio_> hello siretart
[10:08] <siretart> I don't quite get the point in redistributing binary .debs..
[10:08] <siretart> hi Tonio_
[10:08] <crimsun> I don't either
[10:08] <freeflying> siretart: hi
[10:08] <Kmirno> siretart: skype has some mdodifs as it is not working properly from vendor .. see keyes for details he is the maintainer I don't know much more about it
[10:09] <Kmirno> crimsun: ease of access
[10:09] <crimsun> Kmirno: and what about updates?
[10:09] <Kmirno> crimsun: that's allwhat PLF is about, provideing questionnable (or less questionnable) packages with ease of access.
[10:09] <Kmirno> crimsun: well we update the package when there's a new one
[10:09] <freeflying> dose who maintain package of xorg
[10:10] <Kmirno> crimsun: that's the maintainers job
[10:10] <siretart> Kmirno: so you confuse me again: earlier you tell me that you redistribute unmodified binaries from upstream, now you say Keyes is modifing the binary deb
[10:10] <crimsun> freeflying: the main team does, but mostly daniels
[10:10] <zakame> motus: please check bug 4105 debdiff, thanks in advance :)
[10:10] <freeflying> crimsun: I have some problem with xorg
[10:10] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4105: mpd: merge new debian version Fix req. for: mpd (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: MOTU Merge Team, Status: PendingUpload http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4105
[10:10] <Kmirno> siretart: I said unmodified whenever possible
[10:11] <Kmirno> siretart: skype needed modification to work properly
[10:11] <crimsun> Kmirno: err, so why is Ubuntu multiverse involved?
[10:11] <Kmirno> siretart: ircc
[10:11] <siretart> Kmirno: faciliating is one point. I try to help you to provide package with some quality standards
[10:11] <Kmirno> crimsun: because siretart made me agree to take only MOTU rejected packages into PLF
[10:12] <crimsun> ah, so we're not talking about multiverse or universe at all but plf
[10:12] <Kmirno> siretart: well Opera packages seem good quality no ?
[10:12] <siretart> Kmirno: in order to do that, I need to be able to review your work. and this doesn't work very well without 'source packages'
[10:12] <ajmitch> zakame: what's different from the debian package there?
[10:12] <siretart> Kmirno: lets go back to the opera specific case and back from general discussion
[10:12] <Kmirno> siretart: yup
[10:13] <siretart> Kmirno: I'd really appreciate if someone would package the opera binaries suitable for multiverse
[10:13] <siretart> Kmirno: I don't see objections to not redistribute them via multiverse
[10:14] <siretart> Kmirno: would you or someone from plf volunteer to work on an upload suitable for multiverse?
[10:14] <zakame> ajmitch: I see translation diffs
[10:14] <ajmitch> zakame: ok, they're not in the changelog though?
[10:15] <Kmirno> siretart: I'd really apreciate if someone do my work for me too :) hh ... Ask the mailing list for volonteers if you wish :)
[10:15] <ajmitch> since the only ubuntu changes that were noted aren't changelog related
[10:15] <zakame> hmmm, you mean my comment at lp?
[10:15] <Kmirno> siretart: I can't answer for others
[10:15] <ajmitch> zakame: looking at the changelog entries in the debdiff
[10:16] <siretart> Kmirno: I don't consider packaging unfree software as  'my work'
[10:16] <ajmitch> and I still have to wait on gpg key magic :(
[10:17] <Kmirno> siretart: I'm not asking you to. But don't ask others to do it for you.
[10:17] <zakame> ajmitch: hmm, indeed, it wasn't noted in the changelog earlier
[10:18] <siretart> Kmirno: I understand from you that you already have one who did some work on packages, no?
[10:18] <Kmirno> siretart: I don't understand
[10:18] <zakame> ajmitch: wait, there's a repeat of 0.11.5-4 in the changelog, darn
[10:19] <ajmitch> bye
[10:19] <siretart> Kmirno: do you have some opera packages or not?
[10:19] <siretart> gn8 ajmitch !
[10:19] <Kmirno> siretart: no
[10:19] <crimsun> 'night ajmitch
[10:19] <siretart> Kmirno: aah, I thought you where about to release something
[10:19] <zakame> ajmitch: bye, and thanks for the input! :)
[10:20] <Kmirno> siretart: well I would cp packages from opera into PLF an that would constitue the release of opera in PLF.
[10:21] <siretart> Kmirno: perhaps we can agree on this: you redistribute the opera .debs until somebody uploads opera binaries to multiverse? (as nobody seems interested, I don't expect that to happen soon)
[10:22] <Kmirno> siretart: Absolutely Just warn me when you want me to remove them.
[10:22] <siretart> Kmirno: okay
[10:22] <Kmirno> siretart: i'm of adding them to PLF, thank you
[10:22] <siretart> n/p
[10:28] <StrikeForce> can anyone tell me whether apt-build is worth doing on a p4 system?
[10:28] <StrikeForce> to rebuild everything except gcc g++ and the kernels?
[10:28] <sivang> Good morning all!
[10:28] <StrikeForce> morning sivang :)
[10:29] <sivang> hey StrikeForce
[10:29] <dholbach> StrikeForce: why rebuild?
[10:29] <Treenaks> dholbach: foor l33t gent00n3zz
[10:29] <StrikeForce> dholbach, I was just looking at it thats all
[10:29] <siretart> StrikeForce: what advantages do you expect from that?
[10:29] <dholbach> makes no sense :)
[10:29] <StrikeForce> I was messing around iwth a system where I just do things to test and learn
[10:29] <StrikeForce> does it make a difference?
[10:29] <Treenaks> siretart: 3ms startuptime increase, and 0.001% speed increase!
[10:29] <StrikeForce> kk
[10:29] <StrikeForce> so not worth it
[10:30] <crimsun> no, not really.
[10:30] <StrikeForce> thanks
[10:30] <crimsun> a more streamlined kernel and libc6-i686 would be, and everyone would benefit, not just you
[10:30] <StrikeForce> yeah
[10:30] <StrikeForce> although compared to my fedora box the ubuntu kernel is great
[10:31] <StrikeForce> it /seems/ to me a hell of a lot more efficient
[10:31] <dholbach> herzi: criawips is in dapper universe :)
[10:33] <siretart> crimsun: I'd really appreciate ulibc ports! :)
[10:34] <herzi> dholbach: great
[10:34] <dholbach> herzi: you should do a new release - the cvs version didn't build for me ;)
[10:34] <herzi> the next version will be even more usable, we hacked on it during the lwe
[10:34] <herzi> i broke it sometimes in between, it should work
[10:34] <dholbach> some missing header
[11:18] <mvo> Nafallo: so, tipptrainer ... it dosn't seem to work for me, did you run it successfully?
[11:19] <Nafallo> hm, I'll try.
[11:19] <mvo> I seem to can't start a lesson or class :/
[11:23] <Nafallo> works for me :-)
[11:24] <Nafallo> you are running the latest version?
[11:25] <Nafallo> (0.6.0-6ubuntu1)
[11:28] <mvo> for english data files?
[11:28] <mvo> and you can select a class/lesson?
[11:29] <mvo> ^--- Nafallo
[11:30] <Nafallo> yes
[11:32] <Nafallo> you are running -en aswell?
[11:33] <mvo> I have both installed now
[11:33] <mvo> (-en, -de)
[11:33] <Nafallo> oh
[11:33] <Nafallo> -de hates me :-P
[11:36] <mvo> Nafallo: it seems like some old settings in ~/.Tipptrainer killed it, sorry for the noise
[11:37] <Nafallo> so it wasn't that -de "Cannot load file lektion.index"?
[11:37] <mvo> it was the same error, but after removing the ~/.Tipptrainer it magically worked
[11:39] <at1as> 
[11:39] <Nafallo> hmm, oki. I think I need german locale installed before -de works.
[11:59] <\sh> mois
[11:59] <\sh> moins even
[12:01] <Nafallo> \sh: morning
[12:03] <\sh> grmpf...
[12:05] <\sh> incredible
[12:06] <\sh> Nafallo: u remeber gajim merge? I told you that our orig.tar.gz is some bytes smaller then the debian one?
[12:06] <\sh> Nafallo: I just diffed them...ubuntu against debian...
[12:06] <\sh> Nafallo: no diff is produced
[12:06] <Nafallo> joy :-/
[12:06] <Mithrandir> which means the metadata is different.
[12:09] <\sh> Mithrandir: looks like...but I don't know how I can merge this now...because I can't do neither a source upload nor a diff-only upload...from the merge package...neither I can sync it because of our patches.
[12:10] <Nafallo> \sh: bring in 0.9+svn ofcourse :-). replacing gajim_0.8.2 in dapper.
[12:43] <Nafallo> bmonty_laptop: ping
[12:47] <\sh> brb
[12:49] <raphink> where can I find an example of a docbook for a shell command?
[12:57] <Nafallo> bug 4574, is that a PendingUpload just not set?
[12:57] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4574: fam: merge new debian version Fix req. for: fam (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: MOTU Merge Team, Status: Accepted http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4574
[12:57] <Nafallo> bmonty_laptop: bug 4574, is that a PendingUpload just not set?
[12:57] <Ubugtu> Malone bug #4574: fam: merge new debian version Fix req. for: fam (Ubuntu), Severity: Normal, Assigned to: MOTU Merge Team, Status: Accepted http://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/4574
[01:20] <raphink> I can't get to install manpages for my package :(
[01:21] <raphink> this is my debian/rules : http://ubuntu-fr.pastebin.com/434229
[01:21] <raphink> the two manpages won't install :(
[01:35] <cribeiro> hi... is this the correct channel to discuss launchpad specifications for Ubuntu?
[01:35] <Treenaks> #launchpad, maybe?
[01:36] <raphink> anyone has an idea for my manpages?
[01:36] <cribeiro> Well, the topic is not the launchpad itself... but Ubuntu. And there's one question that is packaging-related...
[01:40] <Kyral> Mornin'
[01:40] <Kyral> Yea! Snow! :D
[01:48] <Arcangel> hola
[01:49] <Arcangel> :):)
[01:49] <\sh> cribeiro: soyuz issues?
[01:50] <Arcangel> somebody help me?i have the pjirc on FC3,..is possible create a  irc chat?
[01:50] <Arcangel> a new cahnnel
[01:50] <\sh> Arcangel: join #freenode pls...this is ubuntu-motu channel :)
[01:51] <Arcangel> yes,the eternal problem between debian & the rest
[01:51] <Arcangel> ok
[01:52] <\sh> Arcangel: no...the eternal problem between ubuntu universe development and users support questions about IRC related issues
[01:53] <Arcangel> thanks anyway
[01:53] <Arcangel> have a nice day from spain
[01:53] <\sh> Arcangel: thx, u too :)
[01:54] <raphink> chau Arcangel
[01:55] <bmonty_laptop> mornin' everyone
[01:56] <Kyral> mornin'
[01:56] <Nafallo> morning bmonty_laptop
[02:12] <bmonty_laptop> \sh: I was thinking it would be nice if your MOTU tools could do some kind of an automatic sync request to elmo
[02:12] <tseng> eh
[02:12] <tseng> it would be nice if launchpad did it itself with a signed email or something
[02:13] <bmonty_laptop> yeha
[02:13] <tseng> no bothering elmo
[02:14] <bmonty_laptop> agreed, but until then I wonder if there is a way to make sync requests easier for all involved
[02:14] <bmonty_laptop> maybe we could generate an email that has things elmo could filter on, or creates the command line he can just cut and paste, that kind of thing
[02:16] <bmonty_laptop> brb, gotta go change a daiper :)
[02:17] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: we don't wont to bug elmo automatically...he is a human being and not a bot :)
[02:18] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: and actually we're waiting for soyuz to land
[02:19] <Treenaks> \sh: crash-land? :)
[02:20] <\sh> Treenaks: ;)
[02:22] <bmonty_laptop> \sh: not to treat elmo like a bot, but to make things easier if need be (I dunno maybe he is happy sifting though #ubuntu-devel looking for the requests)
[02:22] <bmonty_laptop> what is soyuz?
[02:23] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: I send him mails and doing the request via irc (mails when I have more then one package to sync..)
[02:24] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/SoyuzSpecification
[02:24] <bmonty_laptop> \sh: does he handle the syncs you request by email?  maybe he doesn't do mine because I'm not an MOTU?
[02:24] <Gloubiboulga> hello all
[02:24] <bmonty_laptop> hi Gloubiboulga
[02:50] <bmonty_laptop> \sh: just curious, are you going to handle the bzr merge just like another other package, or will you merge against the latest devel version?
[02:50] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: no..I'll handle it like any other merge
[02:51] <bmonty_laptop> \sh: so the latest from unstable?
[02:51] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: yepp
[02:52] <bmonty_laptop> ok, I should have asked, but I figured bzr development was still too heavy to make a merge worthwhile
[03:18] <bmonty_laptop> ocaml has a newer debian version but it isn't on the merge list, can I merge it anyway? (need it for build/install deps for findlib)
[03:19] <slomo_> sure
[03:20] <dholbach> bmonty_laptop: i already synced it and findlib too?
[03:21] <dholbach> oh no, it's not
[03:21] <dholbach> oh it is
[03:21] <dholbach> and they're both in main
[03:22] <bmonty_laptop> dholbach: ocaml in dapper is 3.08.3-3ubuntu5 and unstable is 3.09.0-1
[03:22] <bmonty_laptop> you're right about main though :(
[03:22] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ apt-cache showsrc ocaml | grep Version
[03:22] <dholbach> Version: 3.09.0-1
[03:23] <dholbach> findlib was needed in main for gmetadom, which was needed for gdome, which was needed for gtkmathview, which was needed for abiword
[03:23] <dholbach> :)
[03:23] <dholbach> maininclusionreport-love :)
[03:23] <Lathiat> heh
[03:23] <bmonty_laptop> ok, my chroot needed an update
[03:24] <bmonty_laptop> hmm, does REVU not remove main packages from the list?
[03:39] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: u mean the revu MOM list_
[03:39] <\sh> ?
[03:39] <bmonty_laptop> ye
[03:39] <bmonty_laptop> s
[03:40] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: i think they were in universe first..and now they're in main...
[03:40] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: but anyways...do the merge...I'll sponsor
[03:41] <bmonty_laptop> \sh: dholbach said he already merged them so I closed the merge bug
[03:41] <dholbach> yes, it's all done
[03:41] <\sh> bmonty_laptop: ok...:)
[03:42] <\sh> dholbach: btw...any solution for gnomegames?
[03:42] <dholbach> some packages (build-)depending on ocaml might need love
[03:42] <dholbach> \sh: not yet
[04:09] <\sh> dholbach: because from what I see the package is right...could it be that we have some problems with cdbs or dh_fixperms?
[05:08] <Gloubiboulga> libfoo and libfoo-dev should have the same version number, right ?
[05:09] <bmonty_laptop> Gloubiboulga: do they come from the same source package?
[05:09] <Gloubiboulga> good question
[05:10] <Gloubiboulga> I guess so
[05:10] <Gloubiboulga> libreadline4 version :4.3-18, and libreadline4-dev: 4.3-17 on dapper
[05:11] <Gloubiboulga> the dev package can't be installed
[05:12] <bmonty_laptop> maybe -dev failed to build?
[05:12] <slomo_> either both or none has failed in general
[05:13] <slomo_> Gloubiboulga: libreadline5 is the newest afaik
[05:13] <Gloubiboulga> yep, I've just seen that
[05:14] <bmonty_laptop> I don't see libreadline4 in the buildlogs, and I've worked with several packages that are using libreadline5
[05:14] <slomo_> bmonty_laptop: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/r/readline4/4.3-18/#
[05:15] <slomo_>  readline4 (4.3-18) unstable; urgency=low
[05:15] <slomo_>  .
[05:15] <slomo_>    * Don't build the readline4-dev package anymore.
[05:15] <bmonty_laptop> gotta scroll up and look at the source package name
[05:15] <slomo_> i.e. 4 is deprecated and 5 should be used
[05:15] <Gloubiboulga> I try to work on a merge (my first one)
[05:16] <Gloubiboulga> I think I have to correct the dependencies :)
[05:28] <dholbach> \sh_away: it needs the permissions to write to /var/games, at the moment i don't have an idea, how to fix
[05:33] <ogra> sguid "games" is the right fix i think
[05:37] <dholbach> ogra: what do you want me to change?
[05:37] <ogra> dholbach, nothing ?
[05:37] <ogra> dont you already set sguid games ?
[05:37] <dholbach> "nothing" doesnt help :)
[05:38] <ogra> dholbach, whats wrong ? as i got it you already install the binarys sguid games ...
[06:13] <bmonty_laptop> hey ajmitch
[06:13] <ajmitch> hello
[06:14] <bmonty_laptop> glad to be back from your trip?
[06:14] <ajmitch> yeah
[06:15] <ajmitch> now I have to get back to paid work
[06:15] <bmonty_laptop> heh, no MOTU work? :)
[06:16] <ajmitch> if I could
[06:18] <bmonty_laptop> I took this week off, so my MOTU time is going to go down drastically next week
[06:18] <dholbach> bmonty_laptop: you did awesome work
[06:18] <ajmitch> I haven't done anything for dapper yet
[06:19] <bmonty_laptop> dholbach: thanks!
[06:19] <ajmitch> & I still can't upload :)
[06:19] <bmonty_laptop> for main?
[06:19] <ajmitch> for main & universe
[06:20] <ajmitch> I should just try & upload to see if elmo has processed it but hasn't told me
[06:21] <bmonty_laptop> if he hasn't maybe the reject message will remind him :)
[06:22] <ajmitch> he wouldn't see it
[06:23] <bmonty_laptop> Malone #4611
[06:23] <Ubugtu> Error: Could not parse XML returned by Malone bugzilla: Connection to Malone bugzilla failed: HTTP Error 404: Not Found
[06:23] <ajmitch> yay, config.* mess
[06:24] <ajmitch> I hate that in debdiffs
[06:24] <bmonty_laptop> there isn't anything to do about that, right?
[06:24] <bmonty_laptop> it would be nice if debdiff was smart enough to ignore those files
[06:27] <bmonty_laptop> hey LaserJock
[06:28] <LaserJock> hi bmonty_laptop
[06:28] <LaserJock> how's it going?
[06:29] <bmonty_laptop> pretty good here, you?
[06:29] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: oh, alright. I wish I could spend more time on Ubuntu and less on my research
[06:30] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: Is it bad that I would rather play with linux than work in my field?
[06:30] <bmonty_laptop> LaserJock: no, sometimes I feel the same way
[06:31] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: Right now I feel like I'm spinning my wheels right now in my research. At least with Ubuntu I can see some progress
[06:32] <bmonty_laptop> yeah, I know that feeling...I've worked on a couple of projects where I came on after the project started and left before it finished
[06:33] <bmonty_laptop> hard to stay motivated when you know you won't see the end
[06:33] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: that's what I am up against. I need to have the organic chemists make the molecules I want to study but they are having a hard time so I don't know if I will get to do much with them
[06:34] <bmonty_laptop> otherwise you are stuck playing with a simulation, right?
[06:34] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: well, since I'm an experimentalist I get to work on other similar molecules :)
[06:36] <LaserJock> so in the mean time I am going to work on MOTUScience and hopefully some wiki work too ;-)
[06:36] <bmonty_laptop> but you have an optimal molecule that in theory does what you want, right?
[06:36] <ajmitch> Need to get 165MB/174MB of archives.
[06:36] <ajmitch> After unpacking 53.4MB of additional disk space will be used.
[06:37] <ajmitch> yay, just to update my chroot to dapper
[06:37] <bmonty_laptop> i need to rebuild my chroot...there is too much crap in it now
[06:38] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: well, we have a target molecule that will be a true moleculear motor. That hasn't been made yet. I will be able to work on a molecuar "rotor". Right now I am working on a molecular "switch" that isn't very interesting
[06:38] <siretart> huhu ajmitch!
[06:38] <siretart> ajmitch: how are you?
[06:39] <ajmitch> siretart: alive I think
[06:39] <bmonty_laptop> LaserJock: sounds pretty interesting to me...but I only took the minimum chem required to finish my EE curiculum :)
[06:39] <ajmitch> siretart: so can you upload to main now?
[06:40] <siretart> ajmitch: in theory, yes. practically, I'm still wating for elmo :(
[06:40] <ajmitch> so am I
[06:40] <ajmitch> so we have to ping him
[06:40] <siretart> I already pinged him twice, be he didn'r respond to my email
[06:40] <ajmitch> he's on irc now
[06:41] <siretart> ajmitch: do you want to ping him now? ;)
[06:41] <ajmitch> & he's meant to handle this within a certain timeframe
[06:41] <ajmitch> not me :)
[06:41] <ajmitch> I was about to though
[06:41] <siretart> perhaps we should..
[06:41] <ajmitch> please
[07:25] <Tonio_> afternoon everyone
[07:28] <bmonty_laptop> hi Tonio_
[07:55] <Gloubiboulga> bye
[08:30] <dholbach> have a nice evening guys
[08:32] <[splinux] > hi
 Why does universe contain helix-player?
 or rather, why does it include the completely useless stripped down helix-player?
[09:07] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: and yes, it is useless.
[09:07] <slomo> yes, completly useless
[09:08] <slomo> i can confirm this ;)
[09:08] <Diablo-D3> you cant play realvideo with it
[09:08] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: You can't play realvideo with upstream either.
[09:08] <slomo> you can play ogg vorbis/theora ;)
[09:08] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Helix Player + Real codecs == Realplayer 10
[09:09] <Diablo-D3> Amaranth: I wanst implying that it could....
[09:09] <Amaranth> Someone wanted it and/or debian has it.
[09:09] <Diablo-D3> Im saying helix-player is shit and it should be taken out of universe before someone accidently uses it.
[09:09] <Amaranth> So it's in universe.
[09:09] <Amaranth> No one is going to use it assuming it can do more.
[09:09] <slomo> Diablo-D3: why shall i be removed? it doesn't hurt
[09:10] <Amaranth> slomo: I agree we should remove you though. ;)
[09:10] <Diablo-D3> slomo: because it doesnt do anything
[09:10] <Diablo-D3> ubuntu shouldnt be packaging apps that are fundementally broken.
[09:10] <slomo> Amaranth: remove me? why? :P
[09:10] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Someone might find it useful.
[09:10] <Amaranth> slomo: (typo)
[09:10] <Diablo-D3> Amaranth: not really, no.
[09:10] <crimsun> there's an explicit demarcation between helix-player and realplayer
[09:11] <slomo> Amaranth: hehe ok :)
[09:11] <Diablo-D3> it cant do anything that an app already included with gnome or kde by default cant already do
[09:11] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Just because you don't like it or find a use for it doesn't mean it should be removed.
[09:11] <crimsun> The Description for helix-player explicitly states that it plays open media formats
[09:11] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Someone obviously thought it was useful enough to package.
[09:11] <crimsun> real.com's codecs are not open
[09:12] <slomo> and mp3/divx/wmv/etc are neither
[09:12] <crimsun> and fwiw, I use helix-player occasionally
[09:12] <Diablo-D3> Amaranth: no, someone thought it was political enough to package.
[09:12] <crimsun> dude, universe exists for $random packages
[09:12] <Amaranth> *cough*
[09:13] <crimsun> this isn't like main where only a supported subset exist
[09:13] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: If it was in main I could see your point.
[09:13] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: that doesnt mean universe should be bloated.
[09:13] <Amaranth> err, yeah, what he said
[09:13] <crimsun> uh, bloat? wtf?
[09:13] <crimsun> universe is bloat by definition
[09:13] <Diablo-D3> how so?
[09:13] <slomo> crimsun: what do you use helix for? :)
[09:13] <crimsun> slomo: testing aoss
[09:13] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: There are lots of useless things in universe.
[09:13] <Diablo-D3> you can't have a useful ubuntu desktop without universe.
[09:13] <bipolar> does anyone have a source for Mysql 5 Packages? I need them for a new development project.
[09:13] <slomo> Diablo-D3: universe == everything with good licenses ;)
[09:14] <Diablo-D3> I think we need a new repo then.
[09:14] <Amaranth> literally everything
[09:14] <Amaranth> everything possible, anyway
[09:14] <Diablo-D3> solar-system.
[09:14] <Diablo-D3> where everything useful from universe is taken out and put there.
[09:14] <slomo> Diablo-D3: why?
[09:14] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Now that's useless.
[09:14] <crimsun> that's called main
[09:14] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: except main is incomplete.
[09:14] <thierry> lbreakout2 is not in malone but it's I can download his source
[09:15] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Newbies don't get anything from universe unless someone tells them to.
[09:15] <Diablo-D3> Amaranth: and newbies wonder why linux sucks.
[09:15] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Also, most of the things you want that aren't in main are probably in multiverse.
[09:15] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Now you're just trolling. Ignored.
[09:15] <crimsun> thierry: you need a deb-src line for universe.
[09:15] <Diablo-D3> so either, a) main is incomplete, b) universe is too bloated.
[09:15] <slomo> and what's bad with universe beeing bloated?
[09:15] <crimsun> universe by definition is bloated. It _has_ to be.
[09:15] <Diablo-D3> its impossible to have c) main is complete AND universe cant be bloated
[09:16] <crimsun> main is the "sane defaults" repo.
[09:16] <crimsun> universe is the "here's repo, go hang yourself" repo
[09:16] <crimsun> rope rather
[09:16] <Diablo-D3> heh
[09:17] <crimsun> and frankly that's the way that makes sense to many desktop users
[09:17] <Diablo-D3> I wonder if I can get a listing of everything I have installed from universe
[09:18] <Diablo-D3> oh screw this, realplayer from dapper multiverse doesnt work
[09:18] <crimsun> sure, filter dpkg -l's output through apt-cache {policy,madison}
[09:18] <thierry> cimsun : like deb-src lbreakout2 ?
[09:19] <crimsun> thierry: deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu breezy universe
[09:19] <thierry> crimsun : no I want to find it in malone
[09:20] <thierry> crimsun : like there https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+search?text=
[09:20] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: er, what?
[09:21] <crimsun> Diablo-D3: use apt-cache madison on the output from awk with dpkg -l, and grep for universe
[09:21] <Diablo-D3> apt-cache madison `dpkg -l` | grep universe
[09:21] <Diablo-D3> what about like that?
[09:21] <crimsun> thierry: I can choose lbreakout2 just fine in the source package selection of filing a ubuntu bug
[09:21] <Diablo-D3> wait thats not right either
[09:21] <Diablo-D3> aaargggh
[09:23] <thierry> crimsun : yeah but I want to find every bug for lbreakout2 and the link I sent you doesn't work
[09:23] <thierry> and is it normal that I can't request fix upstream for some packages?
[09:23] <slomo> yay, new liferea soon :)
[09:24] <slomo> that's maybe a candidate for main...
[09:24] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: okay, I give up
[09:24] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: my sh-fu sucks
[09:25] <crimsun> thierry: you'll need to check with the launchpad folks
[09:25] <thierry> crimsun : where?
[09:25] <crimsun> #launchpad
[09:25] <thierry> cool thanks
[09:26] <Diablo-D3> argh!
[09:26] <crimsun> (...awk)
[09:27] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: yes, and seeing as awk is the 2nd worst documented program on *nix....
[09:27] <crimsun> there are books on awk. There's even a standard.
[09:27] <slomo> what's the 1st?
[09:29] <Diablo-D3> slomo: several tied for first
[09:29] <phlaegel> any chance of getting a liferea update into breezy? it's got a nasty little bug... http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=512424
[09:29] <slomo> Diablo-D3: for example?
[09:29] <slomo> phlaegel: i'm curently doing it
[09:29] <phlaegel> ah
[09:29] <slomo> phlaegel: for dapper that is
[09:29] <jamessan|work> awk looks quite phenomenally documented in the man page
[09:29] <phlaegel> oh
[09:29] <Diablo-D3> jamessan|work: okay, experiment time
[09:29] <slomo> phlaegel: are you sure this bug is already in 0.9.7?
[09:30] <Diablo-D3> jamessan|work: tell awk to give me the second column in dpkg -l output
[09:30] <phlaegel> slomo: I think it's worth looking at for breezy as well, I got bitten by it recently and it resulted in a not-so-friendly call from my isp about bandwidth usage
[09:31] <slomo> phlaegel: uh... can you give me the diff from their cvs which fixes only this bug? i'll ask mdz for an update then...
[09:31] <phlaegel> I then built rc3 and it hasn't shown the same behaviour
[09:32] <jamessan|work> Diablo-D3: dpkg -l | awk '{print $2}'
[09:33] <Diablo-D3> you're kidding me
[09:34] <Diablo-D3> hrm, we have a problem then
[09:34] <slomo> Diablo-D3: no, that's correct
[09:34] <Diablo-D3> oh wait
[09:34] <Diablo-D3> apt-cache madison apparently cant accept the list from stdin
[09:34] <Amaranth> apt-cache madison -
[09:35] <Diablo-D3> apt-cache madison `dpkg -l | awk '{print $2}'` | grep universe
[09:35] <Diablo-D3> dun dun ddduunnn
[09:36] <slomo> phlaegel: ?
[09:36] <crimsun> Diablo-D3: it takes single parameters. Each a shell for construct.
[09:36] <crimsun> s/Each/Use/
[09:37] <Diablo-D3> First, I shall get rid of all the packages I dont need/use
[09:37] <phlaegel> slomo: looking for it...
[09:38] <Diablo-D3> uh
[09:38] <Diablo-D3> this cant be right
[09:38] <Diablo-D3> ca-certificates |   20050518 | http://archive.ubuntu.com breezy/universe Packages
[09:38] <crimsun> it is right, why?
[09:39] <Diablo-D3> doesnt firefox require those?
[09:39] <crimsun> it was only recently anastacia'd
[09:39] <Amaranth> those are in main in dapper
[09:40] <Diablo-D3> okay, what about... cervisia?
[09:40] <Diablo-D3> it adds cvs support to konq
[09:41] <Diablo-D3> man, I wish I could ask for some of these to be moved to main
[09:41] <Diablo-D3> and actually have it done instead of having to argue about it for hours on end
[09:42] <slomo> Diablo-D3: look at what the actual process of getting something is ;)
[09:42] <Diablo-D3> I mean, why is realtime-lsm not in main?
[09:43] <Diablo-D3> or why is jack not in main?
[09:43] <crimsun> jackd IS in main
[09:43] <Diablo-D3> it is?
[09:43] <crimsun> huh?
[09:43] <crimsun> it got demoted
[09:43] <Diablo-D3> libjack0.100.0-0 |  0.100.0-4 | http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/universe Packages
[09:43] <slomo> crimsun: yes, some days ago
[09:44] <slomo> crimsun: nothing depends on it anymore
[09:44] <crimsun> oh well, more fun for me I guess
[09:44] <Diablo-D3> slomo: you mean besides a shitload of packages
[09:44] <slomo> Diablo-D3: nothing in main
[09:44] <Diablo-D3> slomo: that only means stuff needs to be moved to main
[09:44] <slomo> crimsun: more fun? why? (btw, did you ping elmo?)
[09:44] <crimsun> I'm actually kinda pleased it's in universe now.
[09:44] <Diablo-D3> such as ardour and rosegarden4
[09:45] <slomo> Diablo-D3: definitly not
[09:45] <ajmitch> Diablo-D3: why should they be in main?
[09:45] <crimsun> slomo: not yet, feel free to. I'm trying to sort the wpasupplicant issue.
[09:45] <ajmitch> you'd have to give good reasons for them to be in & supported for 3-5 years
[09:45] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Those are niche apps.
[09:45] <Diablo-D3> Heh.
[09:45] <Diablo-D3> windows is a niche app, then
[09:45] <Amaranth> err
[09:45] <jamessan|work> hardly
[09:46] <Diablo-D3> only people what to install apps and do stuff with it use windows, according to that logic.
[09:46] <Amaranth> windows has a built-in rosegarden equivalent that most of it's users actaully use?
[09:46] <Diablo-D3> I'm trying to get a linux distro that people actually want to use.
[09:46] <jamessan|work> look at the number of people that use Windows versus the number of people that use ardour/rosegarden4
[09:46] <Diablo-D3> without having to fuck with shit
[09:46] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Lots of people "actually want to use" ubuntu as-is.
[09:46] <Diablo-D3> Amaranth: not enough.
[09:47] <jamessan|work> heck, even the number of people that use linux vs the number of people that use ardour/rosegarden4
[09:47] <Diablo-D3> I want everyone in the world to run linux.
[09:47] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Moving everything to main isn't the answer.
[09:47] <jamessan|work> I'd never heard of those until you mentioned them
[09:47] <slomo> Diablo-D3: so why not move everyting from universe to main? :P
[09:47] <Diablo-D3> slomo: except for all the crap in universe, thats not a bad idea.
[09:47] <Diablo-D3> though, I think ubuntu will have to be issued on dvds at that point...
[09:47] <slomo> Diablo-D3: actually i only know ardour because of it's broken buildsystem... so it's probably crap? ;)
[09:47] <Diablo-D3> no, ardour just has a fucked up build system
[09:48] <Diablo-D3> its actually quite fun
[09:48] <slomo> Diablo-D3: it always depends on what you want what package is useful and what not...
[09:48] <Diablo-D3> hrm.
[09:48] <Diablo-D3> I wonder if morphix had the right idea.
[09:48] <Diablo-D3> a modularized linux distro
[09:48] <slomo> hm?
[09:49] <Diablo-D3> like, gnome wasnt in morphix's base, it was in a gnome module
[09:49] <Diablo-D3> and kde wouldnt be in main/universe, it'd be in a kde module
[09:49] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Trust me, a majority of the people in the world are never going to use ardour and rosegarden.
[09:49] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: Sounds like a bitch to maintain.
[09:49] <Diablo-D3> ardour and rosegarden and friends would be in a sound-workstation module
[09:49] <Diablo-D3> Amaranth: not really
[09:49] <Diablo-D3> the modules are just repos.
[09:50] <slomo> Diablo-D3: so install ubuntu minimal and install what you want... maybe create a multimedia metapackage containing all multimedia packages etc...
[09:50] <ajmitch> Diablo-D3: remember that stuff is split into main & universe because of things like commercial support for main
[09:50] <Diablo-D3> slomo: multimedia doesnt work
[09:50] <Diablo-D3> slomo: mainly because there is no 'multimedia'
[09:51] <Diablo-D3> why are so many kde packages in universe?
[09:51] <crimsun> so...make a multimedia-desktop package for multiverse
[09:51] <slomo> Diablo-D3: *sigh*  s/multimedia/$yourneeds/
[09:51] <Diablo-D3> crimsun: screw it.
[09:52] <Diablo-D3> all the years I've heard people bitch about debian and now ubuntu, I never quite understood what they meant
[09:52] <Diablo-D3> I think I do now.
[09:52] <slomo> and i don't understand your problem... but well ;)
[09:53] <schweeb> plz end that there.
[09:53] <Amaranth> Diablo-D3: So many kde packages are in universe because if it's in main it means canonical is willing to provide commercial support for it and the ubuntu devs are willing to provide security fixes for 3 years.
[09:53] <schweeb> there's a difference between not meeting your needs and not meeting your needs OOB
[09:54] <phlaegel> slomo: I can't find a diff for that liferea fix. It's not in the changelog, and my cvs skills are, uh, lacking. Is it not possible to just update to rc3?
[09:54] <schweeb> if you're too lazy to make a metapackage
[09:54] <schweeb> make a shell script
[09:54] <schweeb> with "apt-get install blah1 blah2 blah3"
[09:54] <Diablo-D3> schweeb: heh
[09:54] <Diablo-D3> a metapackage wouldnt be so bad, maybe
[09:54] <slomo> phlaegel: sadly no... we could make a backport but that's probably not enough in this case
[09:54] <Diablo-D3> except people would still need to enable universe to do it
[09:54] <schweeb> your point?
[09:54] <Diablo-D3> maybe universe needs to be able to be easier enabled by noobs?
[09:55] <schweeb> it is easier enabled
[09:55] <schweeb> and well documented
[09:55] <schweeb> s/easier/easily/
[09:55] <ajmitch> Diablo-D3: like in g-a-i, where it just asks you currently?
[09:55] <Diablo-D3> can I double click something to enable it?
[09:55] <schweeb> umm
[09:55] <crimsun> I was just going to mention g-a-i
[09:55] <schweeb> not double click...
[09:55] <Diablo-D3> what is g-a-i?
[09:55] <schweeb> double click would be retarded.
[09:55] <crimsun> Applications> Add Applications
[09:55] <crimsun> aka gnome-app-install
[09:55] <Diablo-D3> ahh, I don't use gnome
[09:56] <crimsun> Adept then?
[09:56] <Diablo-D3> last time I did use ubuntu's gnome, I didn't see such a thing
[09:56] <Diablo-D3> is that new?
[09:56] <crimsun> it's new in Breezy.
[09:56] <Diablo-D3> okay
[09:57] <schweeb> the sources configurator allows you to pretty easily add universe
[09:57] <schweeb> and, it's documented in the wiki, and I'm fairly sure it's in the Ubuntu official howto as well
[09:58] <LaserJock> and it's a whole heck of a lot easier than Windows so I think the newbs can handle it ;-)
[09:58] <Diablo-D3> but noobs dont know what wikis are
[09:59] <Diablo-D3> nor do they know what official howtos are
[09:59] <Amaranth> do they know how to read firefox's home page?
[09:59] <Diablo-D3> so unless its included on some easy to find manual defaultly installed, noobs dont know how to use it.
[10:00] <schweeb> it's linked from your frigging default ffox homepage.  can't get much easier than that
[10:00] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: dude, I went System->Help and then Ubuntu Starter Guide --> Installing Applications and it was there
[10:00] <schweeb> if someone's a n00b, and they're looking for a specific app, they're going to have to do SOME reading
[10:01] <Diablo-D3> schweeb: that seems too difficult.
[10:01] <slomo> phlaegel: i can't find it too :(
[10:01] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: it is way easier than Windows so I don't see how it is difficult for a newb
[10:01] <Diablo-D3> does this starter guide require an internet connection?
[10:01] <slomo> phlaegel: i ask for a liferea backport
[10:01] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: no
[10:02] <sistpoty> hi folks
[10:03] <Diablo-D3> I havent seen the firefox startup page, whats the url for it?
[10:03] <schweeb> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
[10:03] <xhaker> that why he doesn't know
[10:03] <xhaker> thats*
[10:04] <xhaker> reading that page can really enlighten Diablo-D3 exponentially
[10:04] <slomo> hehe
[10:05] <Diablo-D3> well
[10:05] <Diablo-D3> for one
[10:05] <Diablo-D3> that isnt in the ubuntu-artwork package.
[10:06] <Diablo-D3> oh, the filename changed
[10:06] <Diablo-D3> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index-ubuntu.html
[10:06] <Diablo-D3> schweeb: was that a typo, or did it really change?
[10:06] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: it is in ubuntu-docs
[10:06] <schweeb> from hoary? it probably changed
[10:06] <Diablo-D3> LaserJock: nope, I already have ubuntu-docs installed and the file didnt exist
[10:06] <schweeb> I'm running breezy
[10:07] <Diablo-D3> I'm running dapper
[10:07] <Diablo-D3> and thats the file dapper has
[10:07] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: it's on breezy
[10:07] <ajmitch> ubuntu-docs: /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
[10:07] <ajmitch> for breezy
[10:07] <Diablo-D3> well, this leads to a problem
[10:07] <ajmitch> not that it matters
[10:07] <Diablo-D3> what happens when someone updates to dapper?
[10:07] <Diablo-D3> wont their firefox break?
[10:07] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: anyway, it is in System--> Help too
[10:08] <schweeb> you can only help people so much before they have to learn how to help themselves.
[10:08] <Diablo-D3> schweeb: then 90% of people shouldnt have computers
[10:09] <schweeb> 90% of people need to know how to help themselves.
[10:09] <schweeb> teach a man to fish... etc...
[10:09] <Diablo-D3> And theres no way of teaching them how to do that, schweeb
[10:09] <Diablo-D3> (I blame the schools, but whatever)
[10:10] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: How hard is System --> Help --> Ubuntu Guide? They have to do the same thing in Windows?
[10:10] <Diablo-D3> LaserJock: most windows users dont even know windows has a help system
[10:10] <schweeb> sounds like he wants wizards galore.  wizards are asinine
[10:11] <Diablo-D3> honostly, I don't know what I want.
[10:11] <schweeb> that's a user base problem, not a OS problem
[10:11] <Diablo-D3> I started using linux when the 2.0.x kernel was popular
[10:11] <kjcole> Jumping right in: The problem is that Gates et al marketed a power tool as a toy.  If you get an electric circular saw, you can create beautiful things, but reasonably intelligent people know they might need to study a bit before they slice off their fingers...
[10:11] <Diablo-D3> back when slack 3 and debian slink were popular
[10:12] <schweeb> your point?
[10:12] <Diablo-D3> I do everything in an xterm, schweeb
[10:12] <Diablo-D3> and I know noobs wouldnt even know where to begin with an xterm.
[10:12] <kjcole> Same's true of computers: RTFM is a *good* thing. ;-)
[10:12] <schweeb> I still don't see a point here
[10:12] <Diablo-D3> and I think bill gates, spending millions of dollars each year on UI reesearch, gets this.
[10:13] <kjcole> (Of course, I still find man pages to be not the most intuitively designed documentation...)
[10:13] <schweeb> you're pointing to an xterm, and we just pointed you towards system>help... I see no correlation
[10:13] <LaserJock> I thought Gates just stole everybody else's million dollar UI research ;P
[10:13] <Diablo-D3> LaserJock: ;)
[10:13] <Diablo-D3> schweeb: I'm saying I don't even understand how noobs work.
[10:14] <Diablo-D3> I just know how linux works now isn't good enough
[10:14] <kjcole> Well I did say "et al".
[10:14] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: why?
[10:14] <Diablo-D3> it needs to be easier than windows
[10:14] <sistpoty> he, I've got a really fancy ui of new kvirc3 here, where you can click on colorful stuff and that. and still I'd prefer a manpage *g*
[10:14] <schweeb> I would put good money on the fact that my parents could just as easily use a gnome/ubuntu desktop as they could their current windows system
[10:15] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: I think it is easier than Windows
[10:15] <schweeb> only problem is they can't install windows binaries
[10:15] <LaserJock> Diablo-D3: that is what I was trying to tell you
[10:15] <schweeb> LaserJock: I agree
[10:15] <schweeb> for the most part
[10:15] <Diablo-D3> okay, we need an experiment
[10:15] <schweeb> UI consistancy in GNOME is years ahead.
[10:15] <Diablo-D3> go find the stupidest most ignorant user you can find (ie, average windows user), and hand them an ubuntu live cd
[10:15] <bipolar> is anyone working on mysql 5 packages? I really need at least the query browser and administrator.
[10:15] <kjcole> Easier...  A lot of what people consider "easy" about windows is simply what's been hammered into them.  I attended a presentation comparing productivity of average people using a mouse versus the same people using a well-designed keystroke sequence.
[10:16] <LaserJock> In Windows I have to search the web for software and see if it is any good and make sure it doesn't have any viruses or spybots or whatever and that it is free
[10:16] <kjcole> Users BELIEVED themselves to be more productive with the mouse, and were surprised to learn otherwise.
[10:16] <Diablo-D3> kjcole: no kidding, I find the mouse to be a horrd thing
[10:16] <LaserJock> In Linux I can open up Synaptic, get the universe repo and I have thousands of programs at my finger tips
[10:16] <Diablo-D3> it has one use only, and thats for quake.
[10:17] <xhaker> Diablo-D3, credit goes to the good developers that make software acessible from the keyboard
[10:17] <Diablo-D3> xhaker: no kidding
[10:18] <Diablo-D3> btw, I'd like to mention that quake players that use the keyboard only are amazing
[10:18] <Diablo-D3> you can't beat them ;)
[10:18] <schweeb> no.  a balanced coordination of mouse and keyboard use can be very efficient
[10:18] <xhaker> hah.. they should use gamepads
[10:18] <schweeb> mouse is good at certain things quickly, keyboard is good at others
[10:18] <Diablo-D3> xhaker: not enough buttons
[10:18] <xhaker> the keyboards can wear off lol
[10:19] <Diablo-D3> that, and wasd is faster than a dpad
[10:19] <kjcole> A group of us in DC just installed Edubuntu in two libraries for patron use.  One library is in a well-to-do neighborhood, the other a bit more "marginal".  So far, people are able to do the basic stuff without much of an issue.
[10:19] <Diablo-D3> kjcole: by marginal you mean a ghetto, right?
[10:21] <kjcole> Diablo-D3, tough call.  Not exactly.  Downtrodden, but gentrifying.  Highly mixed in terms of income.  The library itself is sort of a hell-hole, but the area around it is improving rapidly.
[10:21] <phlaegel> slomo: ok, reading diffs of liferea's favicon code hasn't helped me find the fix. I'm giving up. :-)
[10:21] <Riddell> siretart: about?
[10:22] <Diablo-D3> kjcole: I'd actually like to see the experiment done in a real ghetto
[10:22] <Diablo-D3> you know, the stereotypical ghetto with african americans, and drug problems, and gangs, and graffiti, and pimped out rides
[10:22] <kjcole> Diablo-D3: Workin' on it. ;-)
[10:22] <Diablo-D3> the kind rap stars think they came from
[10:22] <Riddell> anyone else having problems uploading to revu?
[10:23] <Diablo-D3> (most, if not all rap stars, grew up in a middle class area, they wouldnt know a gang if they tripped over one and had their ass beat into the ground for it)
[10:23] <sistpoty> Riddell: do you have problems with revu?
[10:23] <jpatrick> sistpoty: I am
[10:24] <sistpoty> jpatrick: what's your prob?
[10:24] <jpatrick> Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer
[10:24] <sistpoty> jpatrick: mom. I'll investigate ;)
[10:25] <sistpoty> jpatrick: what did you try to upload?
[10:25] <kjcole> Diablo-D3: There's an area around where I work that's pretty much pure ghetto, but there are "projects" to keep the kids away from drugs, guns, spraypaint, etc.  I'm trying to convince them that maybe they can improve their crappy little computer labs without incurring a huge debt.
[10:25] <kjcole> (So far, not a lot of luck, though.)
[10:25] <jpatrick> sistpoty: ksplash-engine-moodin
[10:25] <jpatrick> sistpoty: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=842
[10:26] <sistpoty> jpatrick: there are files left over... I'll clear them
[10:27] <jpatrick> sistpoty: thanks :)
[10:27] <sistpoty> jpatrick: please retry uploading
[10:27] <jpatrick> Riddell, sistpoty: working now :)
[10:28] <sistpoty> :)
[10:28] <Riddell> jpatrick: woo!
[10:29] <sistpoty> wow. there are about 30 postgresql-threads running... either revu/mom-page is really busy or postgresql got somehow stuck
[10:33] <thierry> bmonty_laptop : crap, I opened about 10 bugs last week with 10 .patch
[10:33] <bmonty_laptop> thierry: you should get the source packages, make your changes, create a new source package and then debdiff
[10:35] <thierry> bmonty_laptop : what I usualy do is getting the source, making the changes, dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -rfakeroot -S and debdiff the two .odc (or something like) file I get
[10:35] <thierry> but when debdiffing, I put the output in a .patch... I'll just have to put it in a .debdiff
[10:36] <bmonty_laptop> a debdiff is essentially a patch
[10:36] <thierry> bmonty_laptop : ok but we can .debdiff with it anyway right?
[10:36] <bmonty_laptop> thierry: yes
[10:37] <thierry> good
[10:41] <thierry> bmonty_laptop : I would be grateful if you could upload the patch you changed to the bug I opened
[10:47] <bmonty_laptop> thierry: np
[10:48] <mirak> hi
[10:48] <mirak> is is possible to have rtorrent from debian unstable into ubuntu ?
[10:48] <slomo> sure
[10:50] <mirak> slomo: what must I do ?
[10:51] <slomo> waiting ;)
[10:51] <slomo> it's already in dapper
[10:54] <mirak> slomo: oh ! I can use dapper source and build it ?
[10:54] <slomo> yes
[10:54] <mirak> I was using debian sources
[10:54] <mirak> it dapper very unstable actually ?
[10:55] <slomo> they're the same ;)
[10:55] <slomo> no, works fine here
[10:55] <mirak> ok
[10:55] <mirak> what feature is ther ein it ?
[10:55] <mirak> some special feature
[10:56] <mirak> ?
[10:56] <slomo> ?
[10:56] <slomo> what do you mean?
[10:56] <mirak> !
[10:56] <mirak> gnome 2.650
[10:56] <mirak> for exemple
[10:56] <slomo> gnome 2.13.2 ;)
[10:56] <mirak> someting awesome
[10:56] <mirak> ok
[10:56] <mirak> ^^
[11:01] <mirak> slomo: do you have a sources.list line for dapper ?
[11:01] <slomo> sed -i 's;breezy;dapper;g' /etc/apt/sources.list
[11:01] <slomo> ;)
[11:01] <mirak> it's ok
[11:01] <mirak> I used one p
[11:01] <mirak> daper
[11:01] <mirak> :p
[11:05] <mirak> I am trying to use    APT::Default-Release "breezy";  in /etc/apt.conf but it doesn't work anymore.
[11:06] <bmonty_laptop> thierry: done
[11:07] <LaserJock> can I use "bzr pull" to update my working copy?
[11:08] <bmonty_laptop> crimsum: did you see elmo's message about differing .orig.tar.gz files for sync requests?
[11:08] <bmonty_laptop> ^--crimsun
[11:08] <bmonty_laptop> I used bzr merge
[11:12] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: right, just tried that. I still haven't gotten the hang of cvs/svn/bzr
[11:12] <bmonty_laptop> LaserJock: cvs I'm ok with, and bzr seems similar to me so far
[11:14] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: that's my problem, I haven't learned cvs yet
[11:14] <mirak> even when I put   APT::Default-Release "breezy";  in /etc/apt/apt.conf , it doesn't default to breezy . anyone have same issue ?
[11:15] <LaserJock> mirak: do you have breezy in your sources.list?
[11:15] <mirak> yep
[11:15] <mirak> I have dapper
[11:15] <mirak> also in it
[11:15] <LaserJock> mirak: both or just dapper
[11:15] <bmonty_laptop> LaserJock: there are *lots* of CVS tutorials on the net if you need to play with it
[11:15] <mirak> but when I dust-upgrade it tries to install dapper package
[11:15] <mirak> I have both
[11:16] <LaserJock> mirak: i think you might need to use pinning
[11:16] <bmonty_laptop> mirak: don't put both breezy and dapper in your sources.list
[11:16] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: yeah, yeah. It's getting time to go through them that is the problem ;-)
[11:16] <mirak> bmonty_laptop: I know what I am doing, I did it on debian
[11:17] <mirak> bmonty_laptop: dist upgrade should not try to install daper packages
[11:17] <mirak> I want to get some sources plus the dependencies
[11:17] <LaserJock> mirak: do you want just a couple dapper packages? you might just download them and install with dpkg -i
[11:17] <mirak> LaserJock: I prefer build them
[11:17] <mirak> LaserJock: but I might do that
[11:17] <bmonty_laptop> mirak: well if you know what you are doing, have fun :)
[11:17] <mirak> since I don't succed in doing something elese
[11:17] <mirak> else
[11:18] <mirak> I just don't know why the APT::Default-Release "breezy"; technic doesn't work anymore
[11:21] <LaserJock> bmonty_laptop: I'm thinking of setting up a SVN repository for holding all my journal articles, etc. for work and then I can get them from anywhere
[11:22] <mirak> bmonty_laptop: hem a dist-upgrade from breezy to dapper should update a load of stuff isn't it ?
[11:22] <mirak> it only suggest to download 20 packages actually
[11:22] <mirak> 20 megs
[11:23] <bmonty_laptop> LaserJock: I haven't tried that in awhile, but last time I did it wasn't an easy process
[11:23] <bmonty_laptop> acutally getting the svn repo going was easy, but getting remote access to it wasn't
[11:23] <bmonty_laptop> mirak: I don't know, I've never done a dist-upgrade to dapper, but there isn't a huge number of packages that have changed yet
[11:26] <bmonty_laptop> cya all later
[11:26] <sistpoty> cya bmonty_laptop:
[11:40] <mirak> is it sucide to use dapper ?
[11:41] <slomo> no
[11:44] <sistpoty> hi slomo
[11:44] <slomo> hi sistpoty
[11:45] <sistpoty> ghc6 baild out on ia-64... and I don't have the slightest clue :(
[11:45] <sistpoty> s/baild/bails/
[11:45] <slomo> that's bad :(
[11:45] <sistpoty> yep
[11:46] <sistpoty> mind to take a look at the build-log?
[11:46] <slomo> but i know nothing about ia64 :/ can you give me the url to the buildlog?
[11:46] <sistpoty> mom
[11:46] <sistpoty> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/g/ghc6/6.4.1-1ubuntu2/
[11:46] <sistpoty> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/g/ghc6/6.4.1-1ubuntu2/ghc6_6.4.1-1ubuntu2_20051117-2130-ia64-failed.gz
[11:47] <sistpoty> it was tried two times... and build process was terminated two times. very strange
[11:47] <slomo> oom?
[11:47] <slomo> i would ask a buildd admin about it...
[11:48] <sistpoty> slomo will do... who bootstrapped ghc6 last time? was it infinity?
[11:48] <slomo> yes
[11:48] <sistpoty> ok, then I think I know whom to ask :)
[11:57] <sistpoty> hi lamont
[11:58] <lamont> hi
[11:58] <sistpoty> lamont: do you happen to have any clue about ghc6 on ia64?
[11:58] <sistpoty> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/g/ghc6/6.4.1-1ubuntu2/ghc6_6.4.1-1ubuntu2_20051117-2130-ia64-failed.gz
[12:01] <sistpoty> lamont: strange thing is, that it pulls in 6.4.1-1ubuntu1, which never built (at least not the one for dapper)
[12:01] <slomo> sistpoty: it built fine on ia64
[12:02] <sistpoty> slomo: it did? did i miss s.th.?
[12:02] <slomo> probably :) look at the buildlogs ;)
[12:02] <slomo> ubuntu1 built, ubuntu2 failed