[12:02] <ogra> additionally he and his mates made the http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdLabelAndSlip for us
[12:02] <mhz> mako: bye
[12:03] <\sh> which looks really nice...good work mhz
[12:03] <kjcole> mako: bye!
[12:03] <mhz> \sh: thx
[12:04] <Seveas> nice artwork
[12:04] <ogra> i'd like to see him as member, and he wants to take over responsibility for a chilenian/latin american edubuntu mailing list ... which i appreciate very much
[12:04] <mhz> \sh: thxubunut
[12:04] <mhz> Seveas: also, one of the new comers and us are organizing the Free Software Institute for LAtin America, and are already working on training course about ubuntu
[12:04] <Seveas> ogra, how long has he been contributing to edubuntu?
[12:04] <ogra> Seveas, since #edubunt exists
[12:04] <ogra> +u
[12:04] <Seveas> mhz, very cool, please make it available in english too :)
[12:04] <Kamion> ~5 months I think
[12:05] <ogra> he's a guy of the first hour in #edubuntu
[12:05] <Kamion> is that accurate?
[12:05] <ogra> yup
[12:05] <Seveas> fwiw, my doubts about mhz that I had after reading the wikipage are gone
[12:05] <mhz> Seveas: sure as soon as we can finish the spanish one and test it, then we can translate it
[12:05] <mhz> Seveas: hehee, thx
[12:05] <Kamion> I'm happy to say yes based on what I know from beforehand
[12:06] <mhz> Kamion: i appreciate it
[12:06] <ogra> elmo, ?
[12:06] <mhz> ogra: thank you very much for your confidence
[12:07] <mhz> elmo: can i add i did some help to Henrik when you guys were even thinking of moving to Moin?
[12:07] <elmo> sorry, one sec, need to catch up
[12:07] <ogra> oh, yes, mhz is moin wiki specialist :)
[12:07] <mhz> maybe that doesnt involve ubuntu directly :)
[12:07] <ogra> not really, but was very helpful very often already *g*
[12:08] <mdke> yes he helped when we moved away from zwiki
[12:08] <mhz> heheh
[12:08] <MagicFab> Can someone explain what mako meant by "work with me for the next 2 weeks"?
[12:08] <ogra> MagicFab, you ? 
[12:08] <mdke> MagicFab, exchange emails etc
[12:08] <Seveas> MagicFab, he'll contact you and give pointers on what to do
[12:08] <elmo> ogra: what are you pinging me for?
[12:08] <Seveas> elmo, +1/0/-1 on mhz 
[12:08] <ogra> elmo, mhz membership approval
[12:08] <elmo> didn't we lose mako tho?
[12:08] <ogra> hmm, yes
[12:08] <ogra> grmpf
[12:09] <Seveas> yes, but mako said that Kamion and elmo could vote already
 please, go ahead, i'll reconnect ASAP and comment on the log.. take votes from the other two :)
[12:09] <ogra> elmo, <mako> if you get kamion and elmo to agree, i doubt you will get a fight from me :)
[12:09] <mhz> hehhe
[12:09] <elmo> blah, one more sec, then
[12:09] <ogra> take your time :)
[12:10] <mhz> elmo: you can also see info about my talks
[12:10] <mhz> :)
[12:10] <Seveas> After that there are 2 more iems on the agenda: Scheduling the next meeting and the SebPayne issue
[12:10] <Seveas> (the latter is not on the wiki, we all forgot about it I think :))
[12:10] <elmo> ack for mhz
[12:11] <ogra> yay
[12:11] <Seveas> cool
[12:11] <Seveas> mhz,you'll make it :)
[12:11] <mhz> what is the meaning of ack (me not english native)
[12:11] <Kamion> mhz: acknowledge
[12:11] <GnuKemist> mhz: congrats!
[12:11] <Seveas> mhz, that he wants you as member
[12:11] <mhz> elmo: thx!!!
[12:11] <ogra> mhz congrats
[12:11] <Seveas> kjcole, oops
[12:11] <MarioMeyer> congrats, mhz 
[12:11] <mhz> Seveas: gooooogle
[12:11] <\sh> congrats mhz :)
[12:11] <mhz> ogra: educooool
[12:11] <Seveas> completely skipped that
[12:11] <juliux> congrats mhz 
[12:11] <kjcole> I had an item earlier on the agenda that got missed.
[12:11] <ogra> hehe
[12:11] <mhz> Kamion: thx, indeed
[12:11] <Seveas> kjcole, you should have shouted :)
[12:12] <Seveas> sorry
[12:12] <mhz> \sh: me much more relief now, thx
[12:12] <mhz> juliux: 2 u 2
[12:12] <kjcole> I'm not an assertive guy. ;-)
[12:12] <mdke> seveas you are losing your touch
[12:12] <\sh> mhz: it can be a hard time :) 
[12:12] <Seveas> kjcole's proposal is about 3-letter codes for locoteams
[12:12] <mdke> :)
[12:12] <Seveas> Kamion, elmo, what are your thoughts about this?
[12:12] <mdke> welcome mhz 
[12:12] <mhz> GnuKemist: thx
[12:12] <mhz> mdke: thx
[12:12] <mhz> thx to you all guys :D
[12:12] <\sh> iso code?
[12:12] <Seveas> airport codes
[12:13] <\sh> oh well..
[12:13] <elmo> I'm not sure I understand the proposal?
[12:13] <Seveas> (don't know whether that's an iso standard - anyone?)
[12:13] <kjcole> Background: 
[12:13] <MagicFab> I have to go - but I must say there should be some other way of measuring involvement, I almost feel insulted
[12:13] <GnuKemist> MagicFab: don't
[12:14] <kjcole> I was talking to mdub at UBZ about mailing lists, etc for the Washington, DC loco
[12:14] <Kamion> is this like ubuntu.tx.us?
[12:14] <GnuKemist> MagicFab: I'm sure you'll make it
[12:14] <\sh> ogra: u have a 4 letter airport code ,-)
[12:14] <Seveas> elmo, simply said: if you want 2 locoteams in the US, name them ubuntu-lax and ubuntu-wdc for instamce (for LA and DC)
[12:14] <ogra> \sh, ??
[12:14] <\sh> ogra: rohr :)
[12:14] <kjcole> He said it LoCo's sorta became CoCo's (Country Communities) and there wasn't namespace for
[12:14] <mdke> let's hear kjcole's proposal
[12:14] <Kamion> I would have thought that the DNS subdivisions would be a better way to do that
[12:14] <kjcole> smaller stuff.  
[12:14] <ogra> \sh, lets keep it english.... pipe ;)
[12:15] <smurf> ogra: airports have a four-letter-code (every one of them, cryptic) and a three-letter-one (commercial airports only, somewhat understandable abbrev unless you're in canada)
[12:15] <kjcole> I argued that "LoCo" usually meant more "local" than that, and he agreed, but didn't want to create "ubuntu-us-washington-dc" etc
[12:15] <Seveas> Kamion, I'd think so too - plus it's easier to setup since all ubuntu-CC.org domains are already in canonicals hands
[12:16] <ogra> smurf, even sports airports ? i live 10km away from one :)
[12:16] <kjcole> Something short and sweet.  ubuntu-dca would work... (DCA being the code for Washington National Airport)
[12:16] <Seveas> kjcole, how about ubuntu-us-dca and/or dca.ubuntu-us.org?
[12:16] <Kamion> I really think airport codes are a pretty obscure way to do this sort of thing
[12:16] <smurf> ogra: it should have one
[12:16] <mdke> me too
[12:16] <ogra> smurf, cool, i'll try to find it out then :)
[12:16] <GnuKemist> not sure this is really usefull... no insult...
[12:17] <kjcole> 3-leter codes are more uiniversal. Would work well in other countries that have airports.
[12:17] <MarioMeyer> in Brazil we are already planning regional subdomains to ubuntu-br.org
[12:17] <Seveas> MarioMeyer, how are you going to name them?
[12:17] <\sh> Kamion: it is
[12:17] <MarioMeyer> like rj.ubuntu-br.org
[12:17] <GnuKemist> MarioMeyer: we are?  ;)
[12:17] <Seveas> rj for Rio?
[12:17] <MarioMeyer> where RJ is the 2 letter code for the state of Rio de Janeiro
[12:17] <smurf> IMHO regional subdomains make more sense, and I wouldn't proscribe their form -- that's too country specific
[12:17] <Seveas> smurf++
[12:18] <Kamion> kjcole: I don't think it needs to be universal - you can do country+subdivision
[12:18] <dholbach> yes, that makesmost sense
[12:18] <Kamion> which is easier to handle if you don't happen to have a list of airport codes in your head :)
[12:18] <\sh> smurf: i think the idea of having ffm.ubuntu-de.org is much better then having airportcodes as suffix
[12:18] <smurf> as we already have *lots* of ubuntu-??.org domains, I do hesitate to register even more of them
[12:18] <Seveas> \sh, you could even du frankfurt.ubuntu-de.org :)
[12:19] <GnuKemist> \sh:  and ffm stands for?
[12:19] <\sh> Seveas: yeah..:)
[12:19] <Seveas> Frankfurt am Main
[12:19] <\sh> GnuKemist: frankfurt/main
[12:19] <ogra> GnuKemist, frenkfurt
[12:19] <GnuKemist> ahh
[12:19] <Seveas> there's frankfurt/universe too
[12:19] <Seveas> for the MOTU :)
[12:19] <ogra> lol
[12:19] <GnuKemist> so we'd add the 2 letter abbreviation of the local states to the team?
[12:19] <dholbach> :)
[12:19] <kjcole> I'm not committed to the airport code idea, but it was one option.  As for remembering them, that's what the wiki's for. ;-)  (Whatever scheme is chosen, longer name could be provided on the 
[12:19] <\sh> smurf: peanuts ,)
[12:20] <Seveas> kjcole, cool, so this is settled then?
[12:20] <kjcole> LoCoTeams page and a link to the short name.
[12:20] <Kamion> create this sort of thing on demand, I think - e.g. the UK doesn't need subdivided teams, but the US does
[12:20] <\sh> kjcole: subdomains with country or area codes are much easier for the local people...airportcodes..i think nobody can think about that
[12:20] <GnuKemist> how many letters?
[12:21] <Seveas> GnuKemist, you decide :)
[12:21] <GnuKemist> hehe
[12:21] <GnuKemist> 2 then
[12:21] <GnuKemist> it is universal I think
[12:21] <Seveas> ok, anyone has more questions/remarks?
[12:21] <GnuKemist> all US staes use 2
[12:21] <GnuKemist> states
[12:21] <\sh> GnuKemist: i think this depends on the fantasy of the people...rio.ubuntu-br.org or rj or whatever
[12:21] <kjcole> OK.  (Guess I've always had some familiarity with the airport codes of interest to me. I was assuming local folks would know their own.)
[12:21] <Seveas> kcole, for the administsative tasks regarding setting up these subdomains you can simply contact smurf, he administers all ubuntu-CC.org domains
[12:22] <MarioMeyer> rio would sound like the City of Rio.. and rj would be the State...
[12:22] <MarioMeyer> which are named equally
[12:22] <GnuKemist> \sh: people could do riolandofcarnival.blah
[12:22] <Seveas> let's move on and not get dragged away in names...
[12:22] <GnuKemist> ;)
[12:22] <kjcole> Will contact Smurf then.
[12:22] <Seveas> SebPayne was supposed to deliver a progress report today as part of being approved as a member
[12:23] <smurf> kjcole: Just make sure you all agree on a naming scheme *first*. ;-)
[12:23] <Seveas> however, his wikipage hasn't changed since oct. 30 and apart from begging for an IRC cloak I heared nothing from him
[12:23] <Seveas> anyone with better news?
[12:23] <dholbach> Seveas: none
[12:23] <Kamion> (did we explicitly tell him *he* needed to deliver a report? my memory is that we said "we'll revisit this in a month" or something equally vague :-/)
[12:23] <dholbach> Seveas: i didnt see him much around in #ubuntu-motu either
[12:23] <ogra> nope
[12:23] <Seveas> Kamion, we did
[12:23] <smurf> Kamion: I think so
[12:23] <ogra> yp
[12:23] <ogra> yup
[12:23] <Kamion> ok
[12:24] <Seveas> cya MarioMeyer 
[12:24] <smurf> Ping him and tell him to give us an update at the next cc meeting?
[12:24] <\sh> sebpayne was who?
[12:24] <Seveas> So what to do with this? Insist that he shows up next time with this report? deactivate?
[12:24] <Seveas> spayne
[12:25] <Kamion> there is a progress report there, even though it was last edited on the 30th
[12:25] <Ubuntuser_BA> i'll be back in 2 weeks... ;)
[12:25] <GnuKemist> Ubuntuser_BA: ;)
[12:25] <Seveas> Shall I ask him to come to the next meeting?
[12:25] <Kamion> if somebody could ping him, that would be good; he does need to show up
[12:25] <Seveas> ok, I;ll do that
[12:25] <smurf> Seveas: +1
[12:26] <Ubuntuser_BA> ;)
[12:26] <Kamion> his membership will automatically deactivate on the 26th
[12:26] <Seveas> If i'm not forgetting more, only datetime of next meeting should be decided
[12:26] <\sh> ah..
[12:26] <Kamion> (I set the expiration date to one month from the meeting in which he was approved ...)
[12:26] <\sh> spayne..now 
[12:26] <dsas> Could I just quickly bring something up re launchpad and ubuntu teams?
[12:26] <mhz> Seveas: what about edubuntu.cl ? or those flavours?
[12:26] <mhz> .oO(too many flavours could mean too many problems with names)
[12:26] <mhz> Seveas: I like that edubuntu.ubuntu-cl.org
[12:26] <Kamion> dsas: sure (under any other business)
[12:26] <mhz> or santiago.ubuntu-cl.org
[12:26] <mhz> etc
[12:26] <dsas> Would it be possible to encourage a policy which says that each ubuntu group on launchpad has at least two administrators, where feasible?
[12:26] <mhz> smurf: that santiago.ubuntu-cl.org is good because we reuse same resources, more efficently. I agree
[12:26] <dsas> At the moment groups with only one Administrator run the risk of having that administrator be a bottleneck for approving new members. That will become more of an issue closer to release date as everyone gets busier.
[12:27] <mhz> smurf: maybe in Chile we have more problems with regions unless we can use 1.ubuntu-cl.org  In chile we use numbers for regions
[12:27] <Seveas> dsas, that should be decided within the group
[12:27] <Kamion> dsas: from personal experience I know that's not feasible for all groups
[12:27] <smurf> mhz: not a problem, if somewhat unusual
[12:27] <mhz> good
[12:27] <Kamion> but perhaps something can be done in the Launchpad UI to encourage adding people you trust as administrators
[12:27] <mdke> dsas, if you have a problem with a group, best thing is to email them or contact them another way
[12:28] <mhz> smurf: I had booked edubuntu.cl  So it is not necesary? should we use edubuntu.ubuntu-cl.org?
[12:28] <Seveas> Kamion, while you're approving, could you approve David Larlet
[12:28] <Seveas> he was accepted oct. 25
[12:28] <dsas> Right ok, having difficulty getting in touch with the admin of a group, but apparently he's not been saw online for the last few days, so I'll try and get in touch in a weeks time.
[12:28] <Seveas> but wasn't registered on launchpad back then
[12:28] <Kamion> if there are possible UI enhancements, do bring those up on #launchpad, or as bug reports
[12:28] <StrikeForce> When do you go through the approval process?
[12:28] <StrikeForce> or have I missed that?
[12:29] <StrikeForce> I came in a bit late :(
[12:29] <Seveas> we already did that StrikeForce 
[12:29] <StrikeForce> no worries 
[12:30] <Kamion> StrikeForce: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for instructions; we're looking for sustained (multi-month), significant contributions
[12:30] <StrikeForce> Kamion, I have but I did it through launchpad
[12:30] <Seveas> last item: Date/time of the next meeting. Shall I ping all regular CC meeting visitors and ubuntu-devel to coordinate new times?
[12:30] <StrikeForce> Kamion, the signing and all of that
[12:30] <ogra> at least 4 weeks of contribution and forseeable ongoing activity ...
[12:31] <\sh> Seveas: in 2 weeks time :)
[12:31] <StrikeForce> ogra, re packaging?
[12:31] <Seveas> \sh, it's feasible :)
[12:31] <ogra> StrikeForce, yes ?
[12:31] <Seveas> StrikeForce, please discuss this after the meeting
[12:31] <Kamion> Seveas: David Larlet done, thanks for chasing that up
[12:31] <Seveas> Kamion, thnx
[12:31] <Kamion> StrikeForce: for the moment, you do need to bring this up on the agenda or we won't notice, sorry
[12:32] <Seveas> \sh, I have a secret plan already :)
[12:32] <\sh> Seveas: post it on the fridge :)
[12:32] <Kamion> let's do the next meeting two weeks from now as per usual; perhaps we can convene people specially to talk to Rolando Blanco, since he can't do Tuesdays
[12:32] <david`bgk> thanks Kamion 
[12:33] <Seveas> Kamion, ok, but mako sort of complained abot the scheduled times in general
[12:33] <Seveas> I think coming up with a better schedule may be worthwile - since people from .au/.nz for instance have a hard time showing up
[12:33] <Kamion> we can't discuss that with him absent; we'll have to sort it out next time round
[12:33] <Seveas> true, but I could gather some opinions already
[12:33] <Kamion> likewise sabdfl, I don't know his schedule well enough to comment
[12:34] <mhz> Seveas: what if we rotate shcedules?
[12:34] <StrikeForce> due to work committments
[12:34] <Seveas> mhz, we already do
[12:34] <\sh> Seveas: should we change times like for TB?
[12:34] <mhz> ohh
[12:34] <Kamion> the sad fact is that it has to be reasonably convenient for the CC otherwise it won't happen
[12:34] <Kamion> with three of us on London time we are somewhat constrained
[12:35] <Seveas> even then the schedule can be improved
[12:35] <Kamion> we've tried rotating times, and the 6am one was laughably inquorate :-)
[12:35] <Seveas> currently it's 14:00 / 22:00 - that's only 8 hours apart
[12:35] <Kamion> 14:00 is harsh on mako
[12:35] <Seveas> hehe :)
[12:35] <mhz> Kamion: heheh
[12:36] <Seveas> anyway, I propose that we all think about this for the next meeting and end this one here :)
[12:36] <Kamion> I can handle back to 09:00 or so (08:00 is hard because the child is getting ready for school), but again that's getting pretty late for mako
[12:36] <mhz> Kamion: indeed. however, if meetings take place every 2 weeks, then there is not much sufferinf
[12:36] <mhz> suffering
[12:36] <Kamion> mhz: I'm speaking as somebody who *has* to show up :P
[12:36] <mhz> ahh
[12:36] <juliux> gn8 everybody
[12:36] <ogra> and who cant make tuesdays
[12:36] <Seveas> gn8 juliux 
[12:36] <GnuKemist> well, I guess I'll check back with you guys...  cheers
[12:36] <ogra> night juliux 
[12:36] <mhz> juliux: bye, congrats and thx
[12:37] <Kamion> ok, let's make it 14:00 in two weeks time, and we'll discuss it more then with everyone present
[12:37] <\sh> juliux: sleep well...and again congrats
[12:37] <Kamion> thanks for showing up, everyone
[12:37] <Seveas> ack, see you all in 2 weeks :)
[12:37] <Kamion> meeting closed
[12:37] <mhz> okidoki
[12:37] <kjcole> 09:00 UTC?  ... -5:00 = 04:00 EST. ;-)  Oh well. 
[12:37] <\sh> Seveas: outch
[12:37] <kjcole> Ta-ta all.
[12:38] <mdke> bye
[12:38] <Seveas>  /savelog
[12:38] <Seveas> meh - crap
[12:38] <Seveas> gonna grab the log and write the report tomorrow
[12:38] <Seveas> 'night all :)
[12:38] <StrikeForce> night
[12:38] <dsas> night
[12:38] <Kamion> Seveas: thanks, dude
[12:38] <StrikeForce> Welltime to get ready for work :(
[12:38] <dholbach> night Seveas 
[12:39] <Seveas> gotta go to my fiancee now - she's sick :(
[12:39] <StrikeForce> hopefully I make it on time next time :(
[12:39] <Seveas> that's why she yelled, needed a bucket :/
[12:39] <\sh> Seveas: oh..hope she will get better soon 
[12:40] <\sh> my wishes...
[12:40] <ogra> Seveas, i know how you feel... we're not engaged, but i had to hunt medicine as well today :)
[12:41] <ogra> \sh, pfft, they'll fire you anyway ... no matter if you do your work properly
[12:41] <sistpoty> gn8 \sh
[12:42] <ogra> ...the fun of economization
[12:42] <\sh> ogra: that is correct..but the best thing is to play by the rules...
[12:42] <ogra> \sh, sure, i dont want to get you out of your job...
[12:42] <\sh> ogra: but husti will be fired before me :)
[12:43] <ogra> heh
[12:43] <mako> sort of
[12:43] <ogra> he never had any clue about his work
[12:43] <mako> still in the meeting
[12:43] <\sh> i think so..he looks like that it can happen every time soon
[12:44] <\sh> mako: read the logs say yes...go back to your meeting and send me one of those 100$ laptops :)
[12:44] <ogra> lol
[12:44] <\sh> ogra: actually I had a question about this 100$ laptop...if it is good for firefighters work :)
[12:45] <ogra> you want to be a fireman ? 
[12:45] <\sh> ogra: rochus was asking...since I spread all those ubuntu cds, I have to talk about linux, ubuntu, projects, nifty tools, bread for the world etc.
[12:46] <ogra> \sh, the 100$ lappie is not for the public ... it will only be sold to schools
[12:46] <MarioMeyer> meeting over yet?
[12:46] <\sh> ogra: I read the MIT pages now 30 times :) 
[12:47] <ogra> MarioMeyer, yup
[12:47] <MarioMeyer> :P
[12:47] <ogra> \sh, mako can tell you more i guess ... but i'm pretty sure you cant buy it anywhere for 100$
[12:47] <MarioMeyer> ogra you are on motu, arent u?
[12:48] <ogra> MarioMeyer, sort of, yes
[12:48] <\sh> ogra: i'm more interested how to spread this news...german schools could need those tools as well...when I see the it infrastructure in schools here...it's horrible
[12:48] <MarioMeyer> do you know if there are any plans for a php5-mysqli package?
[12:48] <ogra> mysqli ?
[12:49] <\sh> MarioMeyer: php5 is main...ask infinity
[12:49] <MarioMeyer> mysql improved
[12:49] <MarioMeyer> hummm
[12:49] <ogra> never heard of that ...
[12:49] <\sh> MarioMeyer: infinity is sort of php5 maintainer in ubuntu and debian(?)
[12:49] <ogra> i know php5-mysql though
[12:49] <MarioMeyer> thx, \sh 
[12:49] <\sh> ogra: there is a diff. between mysql and mysqli
[12:50] <MarioMeyer> mysqli is Object Oriented
[12:50] <\sh> but anyways...I need to go to bed...
[12:50] <MarioMeyer> with other improvements
[12:50] <mako> ogra, \sh i'll tell you more when i get out of here
[12:50] <\sh> mako: i'll mail u..this is easier....
[12:51] <\sh> ogra: gute besserung to susus
[12:51] <ogra> i'll tell her
[12:51] <ogra> \sh, she says thanks :)
[12:52] <\sh> ogra: she should sleep...give her some rum and hot water, mixed together with some sugar .. and she sleeps one week :)
[12:53] <\sh> well...I sleep now...good night everybody...*disappeared*
[12:54] <ogra> heh
[01:00] <JaneW> hi all
[01:01] <juliux> hi
[01:01] <JaneW> **roll call**
[01:01] <JaneW> I'll note who was at each meeting so that if decision are taken, we'll have a record of who participated in them
[01:02] <Simira> morning JaneW 
[01:02] <JaneW> hi Simira 
[01:02] <JaneW> so if you want to be listed say 'here' now
[01:02] <mhz> JaneW: hi Ms. Cakes
[01:03] <JaneW> hi mhz
[01:03] <ogra> here
[01:03] <juliux> JaneW, here
[01:03] <ogra> :)
[01:03] <ogra> where is flint 
[01:03] <mhz> everybosy say 'here' and put your hands in the air
[01:03] <crimsun> here
[01:03] <juliux> but i cann't promise that i can be at all meetings  because 12 UTC isn't a goog time for students
[01:04] <JaneW> hi kjcole 
[01:04] <mhz> juliux: but yor are not a student... you are an ubuntu memeber :)
[01:04] <spacey> hi
[01:04] <juliux> mhz, argh
[01:04] <mhz> hehehe
[01:04] <kjcole> Well, I want a reasonable New York time... or we'll invade your country and bring "freedom and democracy". ;-)
[01:05] <mhz> kjcole: lol
[01:05] <Seveas> spoken like a true Bush :)
[01:05] <juliux> kjcole, lol
[01:05] <mhz> you have already
[01:05] <juliux> kjcole, come on, i will wait for you here
[01:05] <kjcole> We'll do it again! And get it right THIS time... for sure!!!
[01:05] <juliux> *g*
[01:05] <mhz> juliux: maybe you could play some german experiments on kjcole 
[01:05] <mhz> :)
[01:06] <juliux> mhz, we have in germany something thats called "suse"
[01:06] <mhz> juliux: LOL!!
[01:06] <kjcole> Noooooo!
[01:06] <mhz> ogra: simply adding lemon juice to his wounds will do
[01:06] <spacey> JaneW, here :>
[01:06] <juliux> ogra, merkel?
[01:06] <ogra> ah, yes, suse ... but thats not german anymore ;)
[01:06] <mhz> indeed
[01:07] <ogra> juliux, thats no experiment... thats simply just sucking
[01:07] <ogra> hey flint
[01:07] <kjcole> Mr. Flint... You just missed me being an Ugly American.
[01:07] <juliux> ogra, ok
[01:07] <ogra> morning
[01:07] <flint> ya it is morman...
[01:07] <juliux> hey flint 
[01:07] <mhz> hi there flint 
[01:07] <kjcole> Jeff Elkner said last night he'd be joining us this morning...
[01:07] <mhz> wow, more people!
[01:07] <flint> oh god.. it is early, hi kevin it is snowing in vermont...
[01:08] <ogra> kjcole, he's in #edubuntu
[01:08] <mhz> flint: unveliebalbe, its raining in Chile (this never happens in this time of year)
[01:08] <ogra> heh, speaking of the devil 
[01:08] <mhz> flint: maybe it is Day After tomorrow's efect
[01:08] <flint> mhz, hey dude.
[01:08] <mhz> hip
[01:08] <ogra> JaneW, do we have something like an agenda ? 
[01:09] <jelkner> kjcole: i'm here now (thanks to ogra)
[01:09] <flint> mhz, it is beautiful anyway, what is up Jane?
[01:09] <mhz> indeed
[01:09] <mhz> jsgotangco: wb
[01:09] <flint> hey jeff!
[01:09] <jelkner> hey paul!
[01:10] <mhz> jsgotangco: was playing games again? :D
[01:10] <mhz> heheh
[01:10] <ogra> seems common at this time of day
[01:10] <jelkner> so what's on the agenda?
[01:10] <ogra> heh
[01:10] <kjcole> Jeff, after this meeting I'm at the Accessabilty/Special Needs meeting... (Different Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel)
[01:11] <ogra> wb jane
[01:11] <mhz> ogra: you are a geniuos
[01:11] <Seveas> ogra was right :)
[01:11] <flint> morning Jane...
[01:11] <mhz> Seveas: no wonder he's Mr. Edubuntu
[01:11] <jsgotangco> kjcole: what time is that?
[01:11] <jane_> hi, what was the last thing I said that went through - please
[01:11] <kjcole> Was supposed to be one hour from now, but the fridge says two.
[01:11] <ogra> jane_, should we move the meeting times a bit ? your line dropps every meeting around this time :)
[01:11] <mhz> jane_: you said hi
[01:11] <mhz> :)
[01:11] <jsgotangco> we'll have to wait for henrik then or dholbach 
[01:11] <Seveas> a11y is at 14:30 utc - it is 12:11 utc now...
[01:12] <jane_> ogra: I know, it;s damn annoying!
[01:12] <ogra> jsgotangco, this is edubuntu .... we'll have another one later
[01:12] <mhz> jane_: if you need me, i can go there and kick your ISP butt
[01:12] <jsgotangco> ok (im supposed to be here anyways)
[01:12] <jane_> Ok in order to make the session a bit more structured and make note taking quicker and easier let's try to stick to the following format for each meeting:
[01:13] <jane_> We have following categories: Technical, 
[01:13] <jane_>  , Documentation
[01:13] <dholbach> i'm here too :)
[01:13] <jane_>  , Art Work
[01:13] <jane_>  , Community, Management etc
[01:13] <jane_> let me know if there are others required...
[01:13] <jane_> for each of these let's work though:  Progress in last week, Issues/Blocks, Planned Activities for next week. 
[01:13] <ogra> looks fine to me
[01:13] <mhz> jane_: Social
[01:13] <jane_> we can also discuss requirements for additional meetings in any of these areas
[01:13] <jane_> Ideally I'd like for each category to have a leader, or representative, who will discuss it
[01:13] <ogra> mhz, community
[01:13] <mhz> jane_: I meant education
[01:13] <jsgotangco> Social is community imo
[01:13] <jane_> is there agreement on this?
[01:14] <jane_> hi dholbach 
[01:14] <kjcole> Aye.
[01:14] <mhz> ogra: would education be community too?
[01:14] <jelkner> you're the boss, jane
[01:14] <jsgotangco> basically
[01:14] <flint> jane, what about educational as a category?
[01:14] <mhz> flint: thx
[01:14] <ogra> mhz, hat specific educational things would you like to discuss ? 
[01:14] <jane_> I also mentioned that I will note who is present at each meeting, so that we have a record and know who partook in decision etc...
[01:14] <flint> elkner is such a suckup...
[01:15] <mhz> ogra: mainly, teachers work, students work, schools needs, etc
[01:15] <mhz> ogra: or maybe they are Technical ?
[01:15] <jelkner> i have a number of educational things i would like to discuss, but i think they are dapper+1
[01:15] <flint> JaneW, the idea here is to develop coursework, but also as part of an operational category
[01:15] <jane_> ok so we will start each week as usual with Oli, and hopefully his growing dev team on the technical, progress, issues and plans
[01:16] <jelkner> mhz: it looks like the broader educational goals of edubuntu need to wait until after dapper
[01:16] <ogra> mhz, i think they spread over the other categories
[01:16] <mhz> flint: indeed. We'll start desingning training courses for teachers
[01:16] <jane_> flint: I am not sure we are in aposition to develop course work at this stage
[01:16] <mhz> flint: we = in chiel
[01:16] <mhz> flint: we = in chile
[01:16] <jane_> flint: we are still building a framework.
[01:16] <mhz> jelkner: okis
[01:16] <flint> na, you have a released product.  
[01:17] <spacey> jane_, presence here:)
[01:17] <jane_> thanks space
[01:17] <jane_> y
[01:17] <mhz> jane_: IIUC, we'll start with Technical?
[01:17] <ogra> ok, lets get started, my technical report is small this time ... i was busy with ubuntu stuff last week, but the Cd builds have started and i was promised a live filesystem for the liveCD this week
[01:17] <spacey> :P
[01:18] <jane_> ogra: and are you expecting it to build and work already ?:)
[01:18] <ogra> i havent done much with ltsp the last week, but have started a little tool in my sparetime for managing ltsp setups
[01:18] <flint> ...as opposed to a dead file systen :^(  I am all for that :^)
[01:18] <ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/
[01:18] <flint> ogra, what and why a live file system?
[01:19] <kjcole> Flint, for a LiveCD...
[01:19] <ogra> if you want to test the CD, have a look at the report of the current build
[01:19] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/report.html
[01:19] <spacey> ogra, looks fancy :)
[01:19] <ogra> if its empty, it will most likely work
[01:19] <flint> ogra, kjcole, oh yea, still sleepy...
[01:20] <ogra> note that the CD depends on ubuntu, so if there is breakage at a low level in ubuntu, it will affect many packages
[01:20] <jelkner> ogra: wow, oliver, that looks cool!
[01:20] <ogra> feel free to contribute ;)
[01:21] <ogra> flint, the live FS will be the base for the liveCD
[01:21] <mhz> ogra: wow, nice work
[01:21] <ogra> it will contain only the workstation install, no server parts yet
[01:21] <flint> ogra, Gotcha... thanks.
[01:22] <mhz> ogra: i agree WS are more important here
[01:22] <ogra> but if ltsp manager might oonce work, we could ship it on the livecd together with the ltsp packages and it would be easy to setup
[01:22] <mhz> atm
[01:22] <mhz> indeed
[01:22] <flint> so you can use the live cd to boot a workstation?
[01:22] <ogra> but since i do it in my sparetime i'm not sure if it can make dapper ... if not some contributors step up 
[01:23] <ogra> flint, you can use the liveCD as you use a ubuntu livecd
[01:23] <ogra> just with the edubuntu desktop on top
[01:23] <flint> gotcha... that talk of workstation confused me in my pre-coffee state.
[01:24] <ogra> i mean the workstation install we offer on the install CD :)
[01:24] <mhz> flint: hehehe
[01:24] <ogra> my tech plans for next week:
[01:25] <ogra> * getting ldm changed to please mdz's requirements
[01:25] <ogra> (he's not yet happy with my code)
[01:25] <ogra> * getting the sound stuff implemented completely ..
[01:25] <flint> go ollie!
[01:25] <ogra> * finishing the spects
[01:26] <ogra> * having our first liveCD build 
[01:26] <ogra> s/spects/specs
[01:26] <jsgotangco> yay
[01:26] <mhz> ogra: you know you have one "pain_in_the_back_ tester here
[01:27] <mhz> ogra: thx for such load of work
[01:27] <ogra> oh, and * doing some etherboot tests, it seems to become a problem that it wasnt tested proerly
[01:27] <jane_> ogra: any issues/blocks?
[01:27] <ogra> jane_, only mdz and his eagle eyes that find the bugs in my code ;)
[01:27] <flint> mhz, ogra, I expect to be testing in my new lab in 1 week.
[01:28] <jane_> ogra: LOL
[01:28] <ogra> sound is merely done, just needs the code around it ...
[01:29] <ogra> liveCd is mostly done by others, i only have to care for it to be done (indeed i want to know more about theprocess to be able to do this myself, but thats not relevant for the current CD)
[01:29] <mhz> ogra: what yo mean by "etherboot tests, it seems to become a problem that it wasnt tested proerly"?
[01:29] <mhz> ogra: others such as highvoltage?
[01:29] <ogra> we have no proper solution for etherboot (nobody tested it for breezy) and the amount of support quetions wrt etherboot raises
[01:30] <kjcole> (FYI: 12:30 UTC...)
[01:30] <ogra> i got some etherboot cards at ubz, but havent worked with them yet, so setting up a client and do some tests is on my agenda for next week
[01:31] <ogra> thats all from the tech side for now, any questions ? 
[01:32] <juliux> ogra, the skolelinux people use eherboot i think
[01:32] <ogra> juliux, yes, with ltsp 4.something
[01:32] <jane_> guys please look at http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MeetingRecords and see if this format is useful
[01:32] <juliux> ogra, and there will be some of them in essen so you/we can talk with them
[01:32] <jane_> nothe that I am editing, so please don;t try to edit NOW
[01:32] <ogra> juliux, that wont help
[01:32] <juliux> ogra, ok i will be quite
[01:33] <ogra> juliux, they are different implementations ... i need to find the right solution for our implementation
[01:33] <juliux> ogra, ah ok
[01:33] <ogra> which should be straight forward, once i have the HW set up :)
[01:34] <kjcole> jane_, lots to read there, but at a quick skim, the MeetingRecords look pretty good.
[01:35] <jane_> kjcole: focus on the tables near the top for now, that's the change
[01:35] <mhz> jane_: wow! that takes time to wiki it! Thx. I would be ok with it, too, if it were only lisitings :)
[01:35] <flint> jane_, how did you generate the outline.  That is very cool.
[01:35] <jane_> I am thinking it's easier to skim through than a wad of notes
[01:35] <jane_> flint: my copius wiki knowledge ;)
[01:35] <flint> jane_, indeed!
[01:36] <jelkner> jane_: looks great
[01:36] <jane_> mhz: thanks for all your testing and other help
[01:36] <mhz> jane_: np, I love what I do :)
[01:36] <jane_> ogra: so are all your items covered in the table?
[01:36] <ogra> yup
[01:36] <ogra> looks good 
[01:36] <crimsun> ogra: I'll ping you post-meeting RE: sound (read the spec on earlier)
[01:36] <kjcole> jane_ clear, concise... I like it.
[01:37] <ogra> crimsun, the spec isnt accurate yet ...
[01:37] <mhz> jane_: however, i'd suggest that for your own time saving sake, you think of listing over tabling (in this current Moin version. Next will include 100% WYSIWYG editor)
[01:38] <jane_> mhz: cool, cos table editting in moin suck atm!
[01:38] <mhz> and so tables will be easier to deal with
[01:38] <mhz> jane_: exactly!!!
[01:38] <mhz> lol
[01:38] <jane_> mhz: but I handled the BreezyGoals table, so I can do anything ;P
[01:38] <ogra> heh
[01:38] <mhz> jane_: current Moin beta already supports it
[01:38] <jane_> ok, do we have a doc team person here today?
[01:39] <mhz> jane_: indeed, you grok Moin syntax
[01:39] <ogra> jsgotangco is here
[01:39] <jsgotangco> aye
[01:39] <jane_> hi jsgotangco :)
[01:39] <kjcole> mhz, oh? Do tell! (Time for me to install the beta.)
[01:39] <jane_> jsgotangco: are you still our man for Dapper?
[01:39] <ogra> there was a request for a "where to purchase" webpage 
[01:39] <jsgotangco> jane_: hi :) sorry just got to talk to cvd over the phone 
[01:39] <jane_> jsgotangco: hope we haven;t list you to the worl of cell phone gaming....
[01:39] <jane_> world even
[01:40] <mhz> kjcole: you'll love it
[01:40] <jsgotangco> jane_: i'm always your man
[01:40] <jane_> ogra: oh right, ok I'll add that
[01:40] <jsgotangco> jane_: but i believe some people have started some stuff
[01:40] <jsgotangco> like kjcole and elkner
[01:40] <jsgotangco> ?
[01:40] <jane_> ogra: any news on CD prints from your contact?
[01:40] <jsgotangco> i'll be happy to help them out on the docbook conversion stuff
[01:40] <jsgotangco> kjcole: you can focus on the writing...
[01:41] <jane_> yes kjcole and jelkner how's that cookbook?
[01:41] <jelkner> kjcole and i are meeting to start on the book next week
[01:41] <ogra> jane_, not yet \sh is meeting him more often ...
[01:41] <jane_> jelkner: awesome :))
[01:41] <ogra> jane_, i know he already has edubuntu for sale in his online shop
[01:41] <mhz> jane_: sorry, is lightweight, Technical?
[01:41] <jsgotangco> sure
[01:41] <jane_> ogra: really? and how is it packaed?
[01:41] <\sh> aeh...someone pinged me?
[01:41] <ogra> \sh, amu and CD sales
[01:41] <jane_> mhz: lightweight?
[01:42] <ogra> jane_, i havent seen the packaging yet
[01:42] <kjcole> jelkner, she's been hanging around you too long.
[01:42] <ogra> probably \sh has
[01:42] <flint> The cookbook is the update of the Tuxlab stuff?
[01:42] <kjcole> flint, right.
[01:42] <\sh> aeh...I never saw a cd of amu...but I can ask him to show me at least on of those...
[01:43] <ogra> jane_, but i wanted to ask him to use our artwork
[01:43] <jane_> ogra: If at all possible it would be nice if he used our stuff from mhz
[01:43] <jane_> ^snap
[01:43] <ogra> yup
[01:43] <ogra> :)
[01:43] <jane_> ogra: also if his version is more 'official' I'll list it above others...
[01:43] <jane_> as a preferred option
[01:43] <jsgotangco> kjcole: where are you doing it? some online rcs or something?
[01:43] <ogra> i just pinged him in #kubuntu
[01:44] <ogra> lets see, probably he likes to join
[01:44] <mhz> jane_: cool if it is used (at least some) so I have more arguments to talk about with Pablo :)
[01:44] <JaneW> mhz: exactly :))
[01:44] <JaneW> mhz: however it means he'll need to design a whole new one for 6.04 ;P
[01:44] <\sh> ogra: i pinged him as well on kubuntu-de
[01:44] <ogra> heh
[01:45] <JaneW> shall we discuss the translation issue and where / how to store translated wiki pages?
[01:45] <mhz> JaneW: np, actually I have been drawing some stuff already :D
[01:45] <JaneW> mhz: great
[01:45] <JaneW> was there ever an Artwork team meeitng?
[01:45] <kjcole> jsgotangco, I was trying to learn everything at once: docbook, bzr, launchpad, etc.  But since it's primarily just jelkner and myself, and we live 3 miles apart, we've agreed to speed things up and just get started via e-mail exchanges and/or shared access to a ssh-able account.
[01:45] <JaneW> pips1 and highvoltage were going to arrange one
[01:46] <flint> yea, but try to drive that 3 miles...
[01:46] <mhz> JaneW: regarding lightweight, I am seriusly considering working on wmaker theming stuff, as many of the visits I have done to schools so far (about 6), IT stuff is really poor
[01:46] <ogra> JaneW, did we document the new artwork requirements somewhere ? 
[01:46] <mhz> JaneW: no idea about artwork meetings
[01:46] <jsgotangco> kjcole: if you're doing it in docbook and having a hard time, please let me know
[01:47] <jsgotangco> kjcole: and i can set up an online repo so we can work with revision control
[01:48] <kjcole> jsgotangco, so far, what I've seen of docbook doesn't look too difficult, but listening to others talk about it leads me to suspect perhaps I haven't looked deep enough to find such trouble. ;-)
[01:48] <jelkner> mhz: can i get an email for you?  i'd like to ask you some questions about setting up for spanish learners...
[01:48] <mhz> JaneW: is EdubuntuStudyPackages technical or doc?
[01:48] <ogra> JaneW, oh, i see you have documented it i the meeting records ...
[01:48] <flint> jsgotangco, it seems silly to set up YACVS when access to Bazar-NG is upon us...eh?
[01:48] <mhz> jelkner: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez
[01:48] <ogra> JaneW, note that the artwork stuff is not related to ltsp ...
[01:49] <mhz> sure
[01:49] <jsgotangco> flint: not really....
[01:49] <JaneW> ogra: yes but highvoltage wanted to create a team to manage the wiki, website and galleries etc
[01:49] <jsgotangco> kjcole: well the docbook thing needs at least to render properly in Yelp if we want it in the distro
[01:49] <JaneW> mhz: what is EdubuntuStudyPackages?
[01:49] <ogra> JaneW, its under * Enhancements to LTSP - owner OliverGrawert
[01:49] <jsgotangco> kjcole: its not really vodoo but it can be hairy sometimes
[01:50] <ogra> JaneW, it should be a separate item :)
[01:50] <mhz> JaneW: apt-get install mathematics-keduca (i.e.)
[01:50] <JaneW> ogra: not anymore ;P
[01:50] <ogra> heh
[01:50] <mhz> JaneW: apt-get install chemestry-ghemical (i.e.)
[01:51] <kjcole> flint, that was sort of my thinking: having never used any RVC, CVS, SubVersion, whatever, I figured I'd skip 'em all and go straight to bzr, so I wouldn't have to un-learn anything later.
[01:51] <JaneW> mhz: yes it sounds like technical why?
[01:51] <mhz> JaneW: because some LA guys (Venezuela and Chile, so far) we have started some planing on how to do it
[01:51] <ogra> the packaging is technical, the content is doc 
[01:51] <kjcole> Even if bzr's not quite ready for prime-time, it does appear to be getting used, so I thought "good 'nuf".
[01:52] <mhz> JaneW: ogra has given some opinions actually, too
[01:52] <ogra> same as the artwork packages
[01:52] <flint> kjcole, you are the evil-knevil of version control.  Go ahead and jump!
[01:52] <mhz> kjcole: I am also very close to start learning bzr, esp. for EdubuntuStudyPackages
[01:53] <ogra> its very easy
[01:53] <mhz> so it seems
[01:53] <jsgotangco> very
[01:53] <ogra> very very 
[01:53] <ogra> :)
[01:53] <kjcole> mhz, we definitely need to stay in touch (considering you also have an interest in the Accessible/Special Needs stuff too...)
[01:53] <mhz> ogra: however, your 'easy' may be very diff from my 'easy' :D
[01:53] <mhz> kjcole: indeed, sure.
[01:54] <ogra> mhz, not really ... i never used version control systems before baz... and baz sucked... bzr is fun to use, especially thanks to Keybuk and his bzrk :)
[01:55] <mhz> oh
[01:55] <flint> ogra, kjcole has some german in his background, so it might be easier for him than the rest of us:^)
[01:55] <mhz> I used svn once and it seemed easy when you understand what it does
[01:55] <ogra> flint, no german knowledge required for bzr ;)
[01:55] <JaneW> 5 minutes to go
[01:55] <flint> for instance the only thinge easy for the irish are drinking and reproduction.
[01:56] <JaneW> any other pressing items?
[01:56] <JaneW> we seem to have no issues so far - which is good
[01:56] <mhz> ArtWork/ theming
[01:56] <JaneW> and so far progress seems faurly steady
[01:56] <JaneW> fairly
[01:56] <mhz> Doc/Translations of Edubuntu wiki pages
[01:56] <JaneW> we just need to make sure we are on track for dev milestones
[01:56] <JaneW> mhz: yes, did you see my e-mail?
[01:57] <mhz> Community/I need to talk to some guy ogra pointed in order to get the edubuntu-cl ML
[01:57] <mhz> JaneW: hmm, now I have :)
[01:57] <ogra> that'd be jdub
[01:57] <JaneW> mhz: yes jdub is in charge of all mailing lists
[01:58] <JaneW> mhz: will it be a CHILE list or a general Spanish language list?
[01:58] <mhz> JaneW: I also saw your spec on 'content'. EdubuntuStudyPackages is considered under that category?
[01:58] <ogra> oh, just for info, i'll be at linuxtag in essen with \sh and juliux presenting edubuntu ....
[01:58] <jelkner> JaneW: where is the spec on content?
[01:59] <kjcole> ogra, bzrk... that graphic thing demo-ed at UBZ?  It looked like a neat package.  I'll have to dig it up.
[01:59] <ogra> additionally there is a IRC based conference i will hold a talk about edubuntu: http://umeet.uninet.edu/
[01:59] <mhz> JaneW: hmm, I usually prefer small stuff so you can give others more options to contribute. if it were my decision, I'd do it for latinamerica, because spanish is not quite the same, but spanish seems to be more universal concept
[01:59] <ogra> kjcole, deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/ ./
[02:00] <JaneW> what content?
[02:00] <jelkner> EdubuntuStudyPackages
[02:00] <mhz> JaneW: Doc/ or Marketing/ we are working on a paper to hand in with CD's. and also one for Edubuntu only
[02:00] <ogra> JaneW, do you remember my library server idea from the beginning ? its nearly the same ...
[02:00] <kjcole> ogra, thanks.
[02:00] <mhz> in spanish 
[02:01] <JaneW> ogra: oic, well yes it is a good idea
[02:01] <JaneW> ogra: is someone going to own it and run with it?
[02:01] <ogra> providing content for the signle apps
[02:01] <ogra> mhz, ?
[02:01] <JaneW> guys we need to wrap up and vacate the venue soon...
[02:01] <JaneW> turn off the lights when you leave and head back to #edubuntu...
[02:01] <mhz> ogra: ?
[02:02] <flint> JaneW, mhz, how hard is it to cross link pages in moin?
[02:02] <mhz> JaneW: this spec http://wiki.edubuntu.org/ExampleContent?highlight=%28spec%29%7C%28content%29
[02:02] <JaneW> ogra: a bit like example content then?
[02:02] <ogra> a bit more
[02:02] <mhz> flint: piece of cake
[02:02] <ogra> mhz, <JaneW> ogra: is someone going to own it and run with it?
[02:02] <mhz> flint: i can help you in #edubuntu
[02:02] <JaneW> flint just mention a page in another and hey presto
[02:03] <mhz> ogra: own it? (my spanish attacks sometimes)
[02:03] <jelkner> when is the next meeting?
[02:03] <ogra> JaneW, its real teaching content, not only examples 
[02:03] <flint> mhz, jane could could cross link edubuntu study packages to her page...
[02:03] <JaneW> mhz: we can help with that, we just don;t have time to love to many whole things at once :)
[02:03] <ogra> mhz, own it == take responsibility for it ...
[02:03] <mhz> JaneW: ooooh
[02:03] <mhz> ogra: I can, yes
[02:03] <JaneW> ogra: well the ppl with teaching experience and qualifications should handle that
[02:03] <jsgotangco> mhz: but those things are very country-centric but its your package so :)
[02:04] <mhz> jsgotangco: yes, but the effort can be translated 
[02:04] <jelkner> JaneW: i *want* to get involved in that, i'm trying to figure out how...
[02:04] <ogra> JaneW, yup... but packaging it is a ggod idea i think 
[02:04] <mhz> jsgotangco: for example: content about Ubuntu Training Course
[02:04] <jelkner> anyway, when is the next meeting (before we vacate)
[02:04] <jelkner> ?
[02:04] <flint> this is why i thought finding out more about scorm was a good thing...
[02:04] <JaneW> yes I have kids to fecth
[02:04] <jsgotangco> this looks like jdub's sample content stuff for dapper
[02:04] <flint> I have coffee to drink.
[02:05] <JaneW> I will finish the meeting notes in the next 10
[02:05] <jsgotangco> (only that its not a sample)
[02:05] <jelkner> JaneW: so, jane, when is the next meeting?
[02:05] <JaneW> please edit/ add/ amend as necessary afterwards
[02:05] <JaneW> jelkner: 6 days 23 hours
[02:05] <jelkner> ahh
[02:05] <jelkner> good
[02:05] <ogra> JaneW, you noted that we have a a11y/edubuntu meeting at 14:30 UTC ?
[02:05] <JaneW> same time, same place each week unless otherwise stated
[02:05] <jelkner> ally?
[02:05] <mhz> okidoki.
[02:05] <JaneW> ogra: I didn't
[02:05] <ogra> oh
[02:06] <flint> nice stuff jane.  I declare a motion to adjourn.
[02:06] <ogra> jelkner, accessibility
[02:06] <JaneW> I may miss that or part of it, but I will try to be here at least some of the time
[02:06] <JaneW> ciao
[02:06] <mhz> flint: jelkner: would you be interested in packaging educational content?
[02:06] <jelkner> mhz: sure would!
[02:06] <ogra> bye JaneW and thanks
[02:06] <flint> mhz,
[02:06] <jelkner> bye jane
[02:06] <flint> mhz, indeed I would.
[02:06] <mhz> could we move back to#edubuntu?
[02:06] <JaneW> thanks to all :)
[02:06] <ogra> lets move over to #edubuntu 
[02:06] <mhz> by JaneW thx
[02:06] <flint> later jane
[02:06] <jelkner> mhz: i'll talk to you more in an email...
[02:06] <mhz> ok, jelkner 
[02:07] <flint> mhz, email flint@flint.com
[02:07] <kjcole> Ta'ta all.
[02:07] <jelkner> kjcole: kevin, can we meet sunday on the book?
[02:08] <kjcole> jelkner, As far as I know, yeah.  Thanksgiving affect your schedule?
[02:08] <jelkner> i'll be back late saturday night, so sunday is a go
[02:08] <kjcole> jelkner, see you sunday then.
[02:09] <jelkner> great
[02:09] <jelkner> cya
[03:01] <mhz_breakfast> kjcole: we stillhave 30 mins, right?
[03:01] <kjcole> mhz, I see that now.  I just looked at the fridge again, since there was no one else on the meeting channel. (I wish I hadn't run so fast.)
[03:16] <jsgotangco> errr meeting?
[03:17] <mhz_breakfast> jsgotangco: 12 more mins?
[03:17] <jsgotangco> ahh
[03:18] <jsgotangco> my clock is too fast then
[03:24] <mhz> re
[03:25] <jsgotangco> hiya
[03:25] <dholbach> hey :)
[03:26] <mhz> anyone know from henrik?
[03:27] <dholbach> he's on irc
[03:27] <dholbach> hey henrik :)
[03:27] <mhz> hehe, hi hno73 
[03:27] <hno73> yo 
[03:27] <TheMuso> Hello all.
[03:27] <jsgotangco> hiya
[03:27] <mhz> HI ALL
[03:28] <jsgotangco> shall we?
[03:28] <dholbach> we still have some minutes to go
[03:28] <mhz> yup
[03:28] <jsgotangco> ok
[03:28] <mhz> ohh
[03:28] <mhz> ok
[03:28] <kjcole> Hi-ho it's back to work we go... ;-)
[03:28] <dholbach> ogra and janew are not yet back, are they? :)
[03:28] <mhz> nope
[03:30] <dholbach> did everybody have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamGoals ?
[03:31] <TheMuso> Yes.
[03:31] <dholbach> if you want to discuss something specifically, i think now it's time to add it :)
[03:31] <hno73> we can also do introductions
[03:31] <TheMuso> I have added something in comments :)
[03:31] <dholbach> hno73: good idea
[03:32] <hno73> ah, yes also see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamGoals/Talk
[03:32] <hno73> Perhaps we can add the points from today to that talk page
[03:33] <dholbach> what do you think about, everybody stating his interest in the team? or a brief idea, he'd like to accomplish in it? or do you think we should take the goals page and discuss it from top to bottom?
[03:34] <kjcole> dholbach, let's see what we all bring to the table here.
[03:35] <dholbach> ok, who wants to start?
[03:35] <jsgotangco> well i started blogging a lot about a11y generally
[03:35] <jsgotangco> pushing in planet as well
[03:36] <jsgotangco> the HandsFreeEmail exercise wsa really good
[03:36] <ogra> i'm here because a11y might be intresting for inclusion in edubuntu, to find out which requirements for our specific apps like ltsp are needed etc ...
[03:36] <dholbach> yeah, that was a brilliant idea
[03:36] <TheMuso> As some of you probably know, I am the one responsible for the releases of the Hoary Live CD derivatives earlier this year. I have also started working on such a derivative based on Breezy, and in order to add extra features such as spoken feedback for language and keyboard selection, I have actually had to learn the architecture of the D-I system.
[03:37] <TheMuso> So I am willing to help with CDs, screen reader implementation, at the very least.
[03:37] <dholbach> TheMuso: do you have a webpage or something, where i could read up on your efforts?
[03:38] <TheMuso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibleHoaryLiveCDDerivative
[03:38] <dholbach> thanks
[03:38] <mhz> I have great interests on any "bringing access of knowledge and IT to people" ideas and biz. I am totaly new to these a11y concepts but I do think it is fair from us we take care of such matters, so count on me.
[03:38] <jsgotangco> i haven't tried that but i guess it has the AT tools by default?
[03:38] <kjcole> I'm here because I'm trying to spread open-source in a hostile environment (hostile to open source), and the defense given is always "Deaf folks need special educational programs"
[03:39] <hno73> I have mobility impairment wehich has led me to be interested in this. I've been asked to look at a11y more generally, but I still need to catch up on VI stuff
[03:39] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: Yes, but they need to be better integrated anyway.
[03:39] <jsgotangco> OOo for example
[03:39] <hno73> I also manage several websites, so I'm trying to make those more accessible now
[03:40] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: OOo is receiving a bit of work to work with atk from some Novell guys.
[03:40] <jsgotangco> ahh
[03:40] <TheMuso> But far from usable. It does work with the java access bridge.
[03:40] <mhz> TheMuso: but didnt novel fired many guys?
[03:40] <jsgotangco> hno73: i need to ask you something later after this meeting
[03:41] <TheMuso> mhz: I think so, but they are going with GTK, and I have a feeling accessibility may have been one reason why.
[03:41] <kjcole> (FYI I'm at a university for deaf and hard-of-hearing. The campus also houses a primary and secondary school for deaf students.)
[03:41] <mhz> kjcole: please wiki such info ;) so we all and others can notice
[03:42] <dholbach> I work on GNOME for Ubuntu together with Sbastien, and I noticed in bug reports, that a lot of stuff doesn't work properly and is not, what people expect. I feel that many software is out there and was not considered for Ubuntu yet, so I'd try to get it in as soon as possible and we should do all we can to integrate this software to make Ubuntu as usable as possible.
[03:42] <kjcole> mhz, I put up the SpecialNeeds page and linked it to the AccessibilityTeam last week.
[03:43] <TheMuso> dholbach: Agreed.
[03:43] <dholbach> However, I'm not very experienced with a11y technologies. I hope we can form goals, we can work on and get new people involved into this.
[03:43] <mhz> kjcole: oh, yes, sorry
[03:43] <hno73> I have some contacts with an AT-IT charity, AbilityNet, that may be able to provide some testing for us
[03:43] <TheMuso> BTW guys. There is now an accessibility team in Launchpad, thanks to hno73.
[03:44] <dholbach> oh cool
[03:44] <mhz> thx hno73 
[03:44] <dholbach> TheMuso: you have the URL to the team?
[03:44] <mhz> hno73: :D http://www.omma.org.uk/mirror/
[03:44] <jsgotangco> join it, its an open team at th emoment
[03:44] <TheMuso> dholbach: Give me a minute.
[03:45] <hno73> Should we also have some structure time-wise, like bi-weekly IRC meeting? To make sure we keep things turning over
[03:45] <dholbach> as a first target, i'll try to get us an accessibility mailing list, so we can assign bugs to that list and we can discuss everything on there, to detach the team a bit from IRC :)
[03:45] <hno73> uh, looks like I've broken that link ... ops
[03:45] <jsgotangco> well we can start with the BOFs that weren't tackled during UBZ
[03:46] <TheMuso> https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility
[03:46] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: A very good start.
[03:46] <hno73> jsgotangco: ++
[03:46] <mhz> hno73: i think every 2 weeks is good
[03:46] <dholbach> yeah
[03:46] <TheMuso> 2 weeks fine here.
[03:47] <kjcole> Joined on launchpad.
[03:48] <jsgotangco> can we add those bofs/specs in https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility/+specs
[03:48] <jsgotangco> ?
[03:48] <TheMuso> I think it is a good idea.
[03:48] <hno73> So, from a technical perspective, which of the goals on the wiki are low anging fruit?
[03:48] <mhz> hno73: should yup
[03:48] <mhz> sorry
[03:48] <mhz> jsgotangco: yup
[03:48] <hno73> dholbach, ogra ^
[03:49] <hno73> hanging
[03:49] <ogra> good question
[03:49] <dholbach> yeah, it is
[03:49] <ogra> what is already there ? 
[03:49] <dholbach> i think we, as a team, should start on testing those features listed on the goals page
[03:49] <jsgotangco> there's no AT solution for gdm for example
[03:50] <ogra> i mean, stuff thats already packaged and working that we only need to arrange
[03:50] <dholbach> and identify how they are wrong
[03:50] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[03:50] <TheMuso> But how can one define working with stuff like a11y? Different users have different levels of use from a program, for example gnopernicus.
[03:52] <ogra> TheMuso, i think we need to spot the common bits first.... thats the low hanging fruit ...
[03:52] <TheMuso> Right.
[03:52] <jsgotangco> and how can we actually test them
[03:52] <jsgotangco> a methodology perhaps?
[03:52] <jsgotangco> or cheat sheet
[03:52] <dholbach> i think we should start dividing the wiki page into different pages, like AccessibilityTeam/VisualImpairement
[03:53] <dholbach> and then start listing problems we encounter on testing ubuntu from that perspective
[03:53] <TheMuso> dholbach: Good idea.
[03:53] <hno73> I'd like to see us identify some fairly easy items in this cycle, so we can actually tick some bioxes and build up a teams on the basis of those achievents
[03:53] <dholbach> then we could have subpages for: spotted problems (list the upstream bugs, we file on those products), new software we want to have, test plans, ...
[03:54] <kjcole> We need to recruit: Nothing like folks with a vested interest doing the testing -- in an organized fashion.  I keep trying to convince a blind friend to give Linux a go, but so far, no luck.  (Unfortunately, he's moved out of the area, so I can't give the "personal" touch to helping him get started.)
[03:54] <dholbach> hno73: absolutely, once we have a plan with goals, we should prioritize them
[03:54] <ogra> dholbach, having a metapackage and different debconf setups for these categories would be cool i think
[03:55] <mhz> hno73: what if we could design a survey or poll? users could answer and hence we'll know needs in priority
[03:55] <hno73> kjcole: right. I think the best way to recruit is to show that we have gotten one or two things in place
[03:55] <dholbach> ogra: that's another question, how/when to enable those features
[03:55] <TheMuso> mhz: THe problem is who will do the survey?
[03:55] <TheMuso> As hno73 said, it might be better once we have a few good things in place and working.
[03:56] <mhz> TheMuso: i can contact people here in chile who can help us
[03:56] <dholbach> there are different sets of goals, i feel: agreeing on goals, doing testing, getting people involved/testing ubuntu
[03:56] <mhz> i translate it 
[03:56] <TheMuso> I am in touch with a large blind user community which could be handy.
[03:56] <TheMuso> Which is worldwide.
[03:56] <dholbach> and we should discuss them separately
[03:56] <kjcole> Personal experience is there's a lot of resentment when a group of hearing people set out to create what's "best" for deaf folks, by trying to imagine themselves as deaf.
[03:56] <hno73> TheMuso: who use Linux?
[03:56] <dholbach> (and handle them separately on the wiki)
[03:56] <dholbach> does that make sense?
[03:56] <TheMuso> hno73: Not many at all.
[03:56] <TheMuso> And they use the console, like me.
[03:57] <mhz> good, IMHO, for us more IT friends it may be diff goals or priorities than other end users
[03:57] <hno73> TheMuso: could we send out dapper test discs to them?
[03:57] <TheMuso> For those who don't know, I have a vision impairement.
[03:57] <kjcole> TheMuso, that sounds great!
[03:57] <hno73> one problem is that testing often gets done after vthe release
[03:57] <mhz> TheMuso: good point
[03:58] <TheMuso> hno73: They are all contctable via mailing lists, but have chosen there distro of choice. Still worth a try if we point them to where we can download it.
[03:58] <hno73> TheMuso: I guess you would say bash is better than the DOS console an day?
[03:58] <TheMuso> Yes.
[03:58] <TheMuso> One thing that would wu them for sure is having spoken installation.
[03:58] <TheMuso> i.e. Ubuntu Express/Standard D-I.
[03:59] <kjcole> dholbach, agreed (re: separate handling of separate issues).
[03:59] <jsgotangco> that looks hard
[03:59] <mhz> dholbach: yup, separate
[03:59] <TheMuso> Spoken installation with software speech. It can be done with hardware already.
[03:59] <TheMuso> Not implemented in Ubuntu yet, but has been done in Debian.
[03:59] <dholbach> hm, i seem to have quite some lag :)
[03:59] <TheMuso> Hardware speech this is.
[04:00] <mhz> TheMuso: maybe we could talk to CuaimaProject guys. They are developing a MetaInstaller made in Python and some java (clients side)
[04:00] <jsgotangco> how about thte hardware interfaces themselves? do we have good support?
[04:00] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: For most of them, yes.
[04:00] <TheMuso> But the screen reader as well as drivers is kernel code.
[04:00] <mhz> TheMuso: has Python some work on speeching?
[04:00] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[04:00] <ogra> mhz, the preferred way would be to use and improve d-i 
[04:00] <TheMuso> mhz: GTK does via atk.
[04:01] <mhz> oh
[04:01] <ogra> or ubuntu express ....
[04:01] <ogra> mhz, but indeed we can look at the code and grab ideas :)
[04:01] <TheMuso> ogra: Am I right in guessing that even with Ubuntu Express, D-I will still be used for initial keyboard/language selection?
[04:01] <dholbach> what do you think, should we do until the next meeting? (in two weeks time) how do we organize ourselves?
[04:01] <hno73> I feel we should keep a close eye on the Ubuntu Express development and make sure they dont forget AT
[04:02] <dholbach> kjcole: debian-installer
[04:02] <TheMuso> kjcole: Debian installer.
[04:02] <hno73> since they are buyilding a new tool after all
[04:02] <ogra> TheMuso, express will run from the liveCD which you still have to set up on boot, yes
[04:02] <TheMuso> Well we need that to be spoken, with either hardware or software speech.
[04:02] <kjcole> dholbach, TheMusu, thanks.
[04:02] <kjcole> s/u/o/
[04:03] <TheMuso> ogra: Is there also the possibility that the standard d-i install may be available in cases where X cannot be configured correctly for the display hardware, or the user explicitly requests it?
[04:03] <ogra> not on the liveCD as far as i know ...
[04:04] <TheMuso> Ok.
[04:04] <kjcole> For the next meeting, I'm going to try to bring in one hard-of-hearing student here, who's become a Linux fan and may have an insiders perspective.  (He's not at all technical. Just a basic user, who's found a whole new toybox to play in.)
[04:04] <ogra> there will still be a d-i based installation iso available ... but the future for shipit will be the liveCD/express combo
[04:04] <mhz> ogra: but IIRC, dev team told me users can choose a way to install instead of booting LiveCD?
[04:04] <TheMuso> ogra: Understand. Well we should get both accessible.
[04:05] <ogra> mhz, thats the DVD
[04:05] <mhz> boo
[04:05] <mhz> not fair
[04:05] <mhz> kjcole: cool
[04:05] <TheMuso> I have some ideas for speech accessibility.
[04:05] <TheMuso> But lets not get too far ahead. :)
[04:06] <hno73> TheMuso: wiki tem :)
[04:06] <hno73> then
[04:06] <mhz> ogra: sorry, that means X is a must to install from LiveCD?
[04:06] <hno73> them
[04:06] <ogra> mhz, yes, afaik
[04:06] <jsgotangco> can we make a goal to at least make what's avaialble have improved integration?
[04:07] <hno73> I think we should make some plans for testing
[04:07] <dholbach> i thought we could have AccessibilityTeam/<Impairement>/{Software,Tests,Goals,Visions,TODO}
[04:07] <TheMuso> That will be easier for keyboard accessibility I think.
[04:07] <hno73> try to find people who can test and help them with submitting bugs
[04:07] <jsgotangco> yes
[04:07] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[04:08] <hno73> these might not be people who are used to Linux or know what a BTS is
[04:08] <mhz> hno73: any list of applications needing to be tested?
[04:08] <TheMuso> hno73: That is the problem. Those who are used to using Linux are happy with what they have got, and if they were interested in seeing GNOME tools improve, they would be actively contributing.
[04:08] <hno73> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTesting/AssistiveApplications for a start
[04:09] <mhz> kjcole: particpation will come once we start evagelising 
[04:09] <TheMuso> I think we need to have a few must-have features to get people's interests before we see some greater and wider participation in testing.
[04:09] <mhz> hno73: duh! srry
[04:09] <TheMuso> IMO
[04:09] <hno73> We ned to make it easy, which is why I'm suggesting we send out physical discs
[04:10] <TheMuso> I could certainly distribute discs here in Australia.
[04:10] <hno73> So, what are the killer AT features? :)
[04:10] <TheMuso> For vision impairement and those who need spoken output, software and hardware speech at first installation/language setup, and then in GNOME for Ubuntu Express, and for the standard D-I install.
[04:11] <TheMuso> And have accessibility set up for them once the system boots for the first time.
[04:11] <hno73> which is also the most controveetial
[04:11] <jsgotangco> how big an issue AT is in AU?
[04:11] <TheMuso> That is the single hardest thing for blind people to manage. They generally need to get help to install Linux, unless they have a hardware speech synthesizer.
[04:11] <hno73> defaults are always controvertial
[04:11] <kjcole> Forgetting the philisophical and technical for a moment, what's so great about Ubuntu that would induce someone who has problems with written and spoken language, to switch from what they already sort of know (i.e. Winblows)?
[04:12] <mhz> TheMuso: could we have braille intructions as well?
[04:12] <TheMuso> mhz: Yes.
[04:12] <mhz> lke Cd-in
[04:12] <TheMuso> hno73: You referring to things like speech rate?
[04:12] <kjcole> Braille weighs a lot.
[04:12] <jsgotangco> kjcole: we have an commitment to it (AT) explicitly
[04:12] <hno73> TheMuso: no, to having AT features enabled by default
[04:12] <TheMuso> kjcole: I think mhz was ferring to Braille displays.
[04:13] <mhz> yup
[04:13] <hno73> which is why the derivative is important
[04:13] <kjcole> Or are we talking about Grade-2 encoded ASCII that prints nicely.
[04:13] <hno73> but it needs wider distribution
[04:13] <TheMuso> Thats why I am so strong of the opinion that a separate release is necessary.
[04:13] <mhz> GUYS, i gotta run, I'l be back by night :( I hope this all gets logged in url as usual
[04:13] <TheMuso> Thanks for coming mhz.
[04:13] <mhz> sorry, Bye
[04:13] <kjcole> TheMuso, my bad. ;-)
[04:13] <dholbach> mhz: i'll write it up... bye :)
[04:14] <dholbach> in software design, some people use 'personas', fictional people using the software - can we try testing ubuntu from that perspective? (like in the try-to-send-a-mail exercise?) does that makes sense? i say this, because i feel we should get started as the a11y team and not solely rely on getting other people testing it
[04:14] <dholbach> (i'm not opposed to people testing ubuntu at all... :-))
[04:14] <hno73> TheMuso: OK, lets talk afterwards about getting a dapper derivative running and getting it distributed a bit
[04:15] <TheMuso> hno73: Ok.
[04:15] <hno73> dholbach: sure, that sounds good
[04:15] <dholbach> i just feel, we need to get started, somewhere :)
[04:15] <TheMuso> If we tried to think of test like the email exercise, that could work.
[04:15] <dholbach> and apart from distribution/testing i don't see much goals yet
[04:15] <jsgotangco> sure
[04:16] <jsgotangco> at least we're just spewing out ideas at the moment
[04:16] <ogra> categorization ? 
[04:16] <TheMuso> I think everything else is so tangled with each other, that it is hard to get one a11y goal settled upon.
[04:16] <dholbach> it's hard, yes
[04:17] <dholbach> we could investigate in software, that is not in ubuntu yet, we could come up with test plans based on whatever the impairement is and start to make notes, what does not "just work"
[04:17] <hno73> I think it's ok if we make it clear that these are hypothetic cases, because otherwise we get stuck in 'everyone has individual needs' debates
[04:18] <hno73> so the stereotyping of users needs to have a clear justification, but then it can work
[04:18] <hno73> (we know that this is a good method, but others might find it odd)
[04:18] <kjcole> I'll try to find out if there's been any good studies on deafness and computer literacy (since it's primarily literacy that's an issue in the community I know best).
[04:19] <jsgotangco> i'm interestred in mobility impaired issues
[04:19] <dholbach> i will start separating the wiki pages tonight, so that's it's easier to chip in any information we might find useful
[04:19] <hno73> cool
[04:19] <dholbach> i found dogtail, a tool to test UIs from a a11y perspective - i have no idea, how it works, but i'll take a look into it
[04:20] <dholbach> at-poke was another one
[04:20] <dholbach> i'll try to get them into dapper asap
[04:20] <kjcole> Sounds like we have the beginnings of plans. ;-)
[04:20] <ogra> dholbach, dogtail also tests a11y ??
[04:20] <ogra> i only know it as a general testing tool
[04:20] <hno73> I can start on designing some use cases, but I think they should be debated a bit
[04:20] <hno73> so we can determine where the boundaries go
[04:20] <dholbach> ogra: "dogtail is a GUI test tool and automation framework written in Python. It uses Accessibility (a11y) technologies to communicate with desktop applications." :)
[04:21] <TheMuso> Nice.
[04:21] <dholbach> hno73: that's super - we can discuss them in the next meeting
[04:21] <hno73> dholbach: great
[04:21] <dholbach> and i'll try to take care of the mailing list
[04:21] <dholbach> i'll announce it on ubuntu-devel-announce@ as soon as it's there
[04:21] <TheMuso> dholbach: That would be great.
[04:22] <dholbach> yeah
[04:22] <dholbach> the bugs we currently get for a11y are not that much, so i consider assigning them to the mailing list as well (at least as a QA contact)
[04:22] <dholbach> so we're aware of what happens
[04:22] <TheMuso> Ok.
[04:22] <dholbach> and what our users think
[04:23] <dholbach> does somebody have contact to other a11y teams?
[04:23] <hno73> the elusive mailing list :)
[04:23] <dholbach> like gnome, debian, redhat, sun, ...?
[04:23] <TheMuso> dholbach: I am on the speakup mailing list, but that is more users and one or two developers.
[04:23] <hno73> a bit with the gnome team
[04:23] <TheMuso> I am on the gnome accessibility user and devel lists, as well as the kde accessibility user list.
[04:24] <hno73> It's all very spread around
[04:24] <dholbach> it will be good to see, which problems they're facing, what they work on and what they have achieved, so we're up to scratch :)
[04:24] <TheMuso> I am also on the linux for blind general discussion list.
[04:24] <dholbach> TheMuso: WOW!
[04:24] <zyga> phone
[04:24] <TheMuso> dholbach: The traffic is very little.
[04:24] <dholbach> it would be cool, if we could do some "market research" until next time
[04:25] <hno73> I think Sun manages to keep a general level of activity going because they pay 3-4 people to work on it
[04:25] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[04:25] <hno73> but I'm not aware of any very active grass-roots teams
[04:25] <TheMuso> And there is also Michael Meeks from Novell.
[04:25] <TheMuso> Mostly, it is users asking questions about magnification, and users having problem with gnopernicus.
[04:26] <hno73> :)
[04:26] <TheMuso> The festival problem is a big one.
[04:26] <dholbach> yeah, we need to have clearly in mind, that we cannot do much upstream development
[04:26] <dholbach> unless somebody steps up for it
[04:26] <dholbach> a working festival would be great
[04:26] <hno73> Perhaps we should start by identifying stuff that works in Debian but is broken in Ubuntu :(
[04:26] <TheMuso> IMO, gnopernicus is not the answer.
[04:27] <dholbach> hno73: ++
[04:27] <dholbach> ogra: do you think edubuntu has different requirements than ubuntu?
[04:27] <TheMuso> s/installer/install/
[04:27] <dholbach> does anybody of you actively use KDE?
[04:27] <hno73> I think we should avoid focusing on existing technology that sucks
[04:27] <hno73> when there is better stuff on the horizon
[04:27] <ogra> dholbach, not edubuntu specifically, but ltsp
[04:27] <TheMuso> hno73: I think ti sucks, don't know about others. :)
[04:28] <jsgotangco> i have some AT here installed
[04:28] <hno73> so we don't drain our efforts
[04:28] <dholbach> ogra: is the ltsp community aware of that?
[04:28] <TheMuso> dholbach: KDE's accesibility is coming along, but is nowhere near what GNOME has.
[04:28] <hno73> we don't have very many users now, but we need to plan for the future
[04:28] <jsgotangco> kmouth is horribly broken it seems
[04:28] <dholbach> TheMuso: oh i see, i didn't know
[04:28] <jsgotangco> no not kmouth, i meant KSayIt
[04:28] <kjcole> I'm talking with my wife, who is deaf, and asked her what possible leads on research and guinea pigs... She says "The World Bank".
[04:28] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:28] <zyga> re
[04:28] <TheMuso> One bug that needs fixing in Ubuntu, is getting gnome-mag built with XDamage extensions for full-screen magnification.
[04:29] <TheMuso> I started looking into it but didn't follow through.
[04:29] <ogra> dholbach, i dont think so ... since *i* am the the ltsp community for ubuntu ... its a totally new implementation
[04:29] <dholbach> TheMuso: will note that down
[04:29] <zyga> about the idea: we could identify packages from main that are a11y-friendly and display an icon next to them, similar to the 'ubuntu' icon currnelty present
[04:29] <kjcole> There's some sort of global accessibility group there.
[04:30] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: As far as I can see, you won't have much to go on. GNOME will still be the environment for a11y, until QT4 and KDE4 come out.
[04:30] <TheMuso> zyga: Not useful for those who can't see.
[04:30] <ogra> dholbach, i.e. ltsp uses esd for sound and will have a new gstreamr ltspsink ... this must be taken into account ...
[04:30] <dholbach> ogra: so we need that on the test plan as well
[04:30] <TheMuso> Actually, there are also some audio requirements noted by the a11y free standard group.
[04:30] <dholbach> ogra: once it's ready
[04:30] <zyga> TheMuso: yes but that data could be used in gnome-app-install to say 'this program is not a11y friendy'
[04:30] <Riddell> jsgotangco: cool
[04:30] <TheMuso> FOr multimedia frameworks.
[04:30] <TheMuso> If the link is requested, I will post it.
[04:30] <Riddell> TheMuso: why?
[04:30] <dholbach> oh Riddell is here too
[04:31] <Riddell> dholbach: I'm always here :)
[04:31] <dholbach> Riddell: do you know how active the kde-a11y folks are?
[04:31] <Riddell> dholbach: pretty active
[04:31] <dholbach> TheMuso: we will have a AccessbilityTeam/Links page too
[04:31] <TheMuso> Riddell: This is only from what I have been able to gather.
[04:31] <dholbach> i will create the wiki pages tonight
[04:31] <TheMuso> I have not been able to test everything, and to be truthful, I don't know what works with kttsd for example.
[04:32] <Riddell> yeah, I've not tested kttsd, have you jsgotangco?
[04:32] <kjcole> Time for me to go pretend to work on the day before Thanksgiving.  (I'm sure someone will "unofficially" tell us we can leave early today.)
[04:33] <jsgotangco> Riddell: it works pretty much
[04:33] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: What have you found? How does one use it?
[04:33] <jsgotangco> well it pretty much works by itself
[04:33] <hno73> Perhaps we should consider a testing Live DVD with both the Gnome and KDE stuff installed by default
[04:34] <jsgotangco> it says stuff like i have x number of mails from kopete
[04:34] <TheMuso> jsgotangco: What do you mean?
[04:34] <TheMuso> What about menus?
[04:34] <TheMuso> Like the applications menu?
[04:34] <hno73> Different people will find diferent tools useful
[04:34] <jsgotangco> i havent tried that yet
[04:34] <dholbach> hmmmmm
[04:34] <hno73> I've tried running kmag in gnome, which seems to work well, etc.
[04:35] <TheMuso> Right.
[04:35] <Riddell> the KDE accessibility guys have a really nice looking new magnifier using composite in the works
[04:35] <jsgotangco> kmag is pretty good
[04:35] <jsgotangco> but kde lacks an on screen keyboard
[04:35] <Riddell> jsgotangco: that's the part that will stay missing until qt4/kde4 alas
[04:35] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[04:36] <hno73> KDE and Gnome also made a statement that they will actively collaborate on AT, and I think we should support that sentiment
[04:36] <dholbach> can everybody interested in a11y tell me their mail address in a query, so i can get a mail out and we can follow up like that until we hav ethe mailing list?
[04:36] <TheMuso> hno73: I agree.
[04:36] <TheMuso> They are looking at using dbus.
[04:37] <Riddell> jriddell@ubuntu.com
[04:37] <hno73> query? henrik@ubuntu.com :)
[04:37] <Riddell> oh, query, ah well
[04:37] <ogra> ogra@ubuntu.com
[04:37] <jsgotangco> jgotangco@ubuntu.com
[04:37] <dholbach> when you think we should wrap up, could everybody state what they're going to do until the meeting in 2 weeks time?
[04:38] <kjcole> kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu
[04:38] <jsgotangco> hno73: the use cases can be useful for testing what we currently have and help us test it
[04:39] <hno73> TheMuso: would you consider basing it on dapper instead?
[04:39] <hno73> so we can stay ahead of the ball a bit?
[04:40] <TheMuso> hno73: Yeah I could. I will try to base it on flight.
[04:40] <TheMuso> Trouble is, a lot has changed since then, and things could be broken.
[04:40] <hno73> TheMuso: I'll encourage some dev people to help you
[04:40] <hno73> if need be
[04:40] <TheMuso> Thats why I am trying with breezy for the moment, to give me a stable environment in which to work,.
[04:41] <hno73> TheMuso: tell me if you need access to a server to build on, etc.
[04:41] <TheMuso> As some of the work involves creating debian-installer udeb packages.
[04:41] <TheMuso> hno73: Ok. I am only doing i386 atm.
[04:41] <TheMuso> And have access to PowerPC.
[04:41] <dholbach> TheMuso: is this something, that cannot be in the proper d-i at the moment?
[04:42] <dholbach> TheMuso: if you need an amd64 to work on, tell me
[04:42] <TheMuso> dholbach: It involves making udebs of core alsa packages.
[04:42] <hno73> TheMuso: yeah, but I mean one with a decent connection for moving stuff around
[04:42] <TheMuso> hno73: That might be helpful.
[04:42] <dholbach> TheMuso: did colin watson have reservations on this?
[04:42] <TheMuso> I have emailed Colin a while back, but never got a responce
[04:43] <dholbach> he must have been busy then... as a team we should ask again
[04:43] <TheMuso> I wouldn't be surprised if my approach is hacky, but I am just trying to see if I can get it working. Software speech for installation has not been done yet.
[04:43] <TheMuso> dholbach: That would be great!
[04:43] <dholbach> TheMuso: he's not someone who doesnt respond to people
[04:44] <TheMuso> I didn't think so.
[04:44] <hno73> OK, I think we've gotten a fair bit done :)
[04:44] <jsgotangco> are you implying something? :D
[04:44] <dholbach> yeah
[04:44] <hno73> huh ?
[04:44] <dholbach> i'm quite happy, with what we discussed... for a first meeting this was really good
[04:45] <TheMuso> Agreed.
[04:45] <dholbach> next time, we'll be better organized :)
[04:45] <jsgotangco> pretty good brain storm
[04:45] <dholbach> ROCK :)
[04:45] <kjcole> I'm just here for the karma points. ;-)
[04:45] <dholbach> tssssss :)
[04:45] <TheMuso> Maybe we should also think of an agenda for the next meeting, and put it on the page linked to in the topic.
[04:45] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:45] <jsgotangco> announce the formation on the fridge!
[04:46] <jsgotangco> and make fridget accessible!
[04:46] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:46] <TheMuso> hahaha.
[04:46] <hno73> The AT team forms (again)
[04:46] <dholbach> TheMuso, jsgotangco : yeah, this was a first meeting, with less people to be sure, we come to at least *SOME* conclusions :)
[04:46] <kjcole> Agenda? We don't need no stinking agenda!  (But it's a good idea, Lord.)
[04:47] <TheMuso> Like the discussion of moving some important packages from Universe to main, upgrading them, etc.
[04:47] <dholbach> TheMuso: we should have a TODO page on the wiki for that
[04:47] <TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah.
[04:47] <jsgotangco> what else is in universe that needs to be fleshed out?
[04:47] <TheMuso> BrlTTY.
[04:47] <jsgotangco> (aside from some KDE stuff)
[04:47] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[04:48] <dholbach> TheMuso: yeah, didnt manage to do that for breezy
[04:48] <dholbach> TheMuso: because it needed something newer in main and it was past upstream version freeze, when i got that bug
[04:48] <Riddell> jsgotangco: moving kdeaccessibility to main would be cool but it probably has a lot of dependencies
[04:48] <TheMuso> It also needs an upgrade. I remember reading something about it possibly being done for Debian, but haven't checked that.
[04:48] <jsgotangco> Riddell: it has tons, i can make an inclusion draft perhaps
[04:49] <hno73> This is why I think we need to focus on dapper
[04:49] <hno73> to get the bug reports in on time
[04:49] <dholbach> yeah
[04:49] <jsgotangco> right
[04:49] <dholbach> anything else, we need to discuss (apart next meeting's time and date)?
[04:49] <TheMuso> hno73: Fair enough.
[04:50] <hno73> same time in 2 weeks would work for me
[04:50] <jsgotangco> i think this is a good time
[04:50] <TheMuso> I just don't like using dapper for my main systems.
[04:50] <dholbach> we will spread the word next time beforhand
[04:50] <dholbach> december, 7th, 14:30 utc?
[04:50] <jsgotangco> nice
[04:50] <TheMuso> Sounds alright.
[04:50] <kjcole> A wee bit awkward for me timewise, but doable. (I go to the Edubuntu meeting at 7:00 AM my time.)
[04:51] <dholbach> excellent... a notice one week before should be fine, so we can get an agenda together and the wiki up to scratch
[04:51] <TheMuso> kjcole: Well this meeting for me is 1:30AM my time.
[04:51] <dholbach> TheMuso: where do you live?
[04:51] <TheMuso> dholbach: Australia.
[04:51] <dholbach> oh i see :)
[04:52] <jsgotangco> its only midnight here in manila
[04:52] <TheMuso> But as I said, given advanced notice, I can do it.
[04:52] <kjcole> TheMuso: I feel for you.  So far, I haven't had any meetings THAT awkward.
[04:52] <jsgotangco> kjcole: try 4am meetings
[04:52] <dholbach> if you have another idea of when to meet, just say so - we can rotate the times
[04:52] <TheMuso> Well I can make just about any time. I can fit in with everybody else.
[04:52] <kjcole> jsgotangco: I'm not that dedicated / masochistic.
[04:53] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:53] <jsgotangco> hno73: you got a minute or two via pm?
[04:53] <hno73> jsgotangco: yep
[04:54] <kjcole> jsgotangco: although, truth be told, two days ago I installed Edubuntu, and stayed up almost 24 hours tinkering with it and restoring stuff to it.  (It was a Fedora box.)
[04:54] <dholbach> ok, then we close this meeting for now?
[04:54] <TheMuso> Sounds fine by me.
[04:55] <kjcole> Yup. Later all...
[04:55] <dholbach> thank you very much, everybody who attended the meeting and gave so good input
[04:55] <dholbach> we will form a rocking accessibility team
[04:56] <TheMuso> hno73: Did you have something to talk to me about? I am going back through the logs to work out what it may have been.
[04:56] <dholbach> and make dapper an excellent release
[04:58] <TheMuso> SOrry, it was jsgotangco.
[04:58] <jsgotangco> er?
[04:58] <TheMuso> Never mind, I think ti was covered.
[04:59] <TheMuso> hno73: We covered the derivative a little in the meeting, unless there is anything else you want to mention?
[05:01] <dholbach> *wave*
[05:02] <hno73> TheMuso: cool, lets sum up on email
[05:02] <TheMuso> Ok.
[05:03] <TheMuso> bye all.
[05:05] <jsgotangco> k good night as well
[05:23] <\sh> what meeting was now?
[05:26] <Riddell> \sh: accessibility
[05:26] <Riddell> just happened
[05:29] <\sh> oh...