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| HiddenWolf | Keybuk, does that bootchart tell me y'all have managed to halve dapper boot times? | 09:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Keybuk | ish | 09:07 |
| Keybuk | certainly below 1m | 09:07 |
| infinity | Well, except for the part where there's no GDm there. | 09:07 |
| infinity | In fact, no runlevel 2 at all, if I'm not mistaken. | 09:08 |
| Keybuk | yeah, it's just rcS | 09:09 |
| HiddenWolf | ah | 09:10 |
| Keybuk | which has dropped from 55s to 39s | 09:10 |
| HiddenWolf | Hm, still amazing. | 09:12 |
| Keybuk | yeah, it's a start | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | there's probably another 10s or so in there | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | not loading framebuffer drivers should help a bit | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | and removing networking and pcmcia should too | 09:13 |
| HiddenWolf | It'd be sweet if things would only start if needed. | 09:14 |
| HiddenWolf | think hplib. | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | that starts after gdm | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | anything that starts after gdm isn't relevant | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | the game isn't time-until-end-of-rc2 ... but time-until-user-can-login | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | who cares if hplib and apache don't start until half way through their login? they probably won't | 09:15 |
| Mithrandir | it should probably be "time until user logged in or system-fully-booted, whichever is longer" | 09:15 |
| Keybuk | no it shouldn't | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | I only care up to the point gdm's greeter comes up | 09:17 |
| Keybuk | after that iz gtk bug :) | 09:17 |
| Keybuk | Windows plays the same trick, it brings the greeter up as soon as it can while still booting -- it gives the perception of a fast boot | 09:17 |
| infinity | <nod> | 09:19 |
| infinity | We need to see a useable GDM as soon as possible. | 09:19 |
| infinity | Anything beyond that is nice (we don't want to grind for 2 more minutes) but much less critical. | 09:19 |
| Keybuk | right | 09:20 |
| Keybuk | once gdm is up, it's all low-hanging | 09:20 |
| Mithrandir | Keybuk: I care about "machine usable and stuff working", not "shows me pretty junk" | 09:21 |
| Keybuk | define usable :) | 09:22 |
| Keybuk | your machine might not be usable until you plug in your pcmcia network card | 09:22 |
| Keybuk | and if we bootcharted the 5 minutes for you hunting through the crap on your desk, it'd be a loooong time | 09:23 |
| Keybuk | the best definition I can think of is that the user can do _something_ | 09:23 |
| Keybuk | ie. get them a greeter or getty as soon as you can | 09:23 |
| HiddenWolf | Keybuk, how much do you think is realisticly what you can still shave off it? | 09:52 |
| Keybuk | <----> that much | 09:52 |
| HiddenWolf | hah, ok. | 09:52 |
| === HiddenWolf lurks on | ||
| HiddenWolf | get me <---------> this much, and I'll extend an open invitation to free beer. ;) | 09:53 |
| Keybuk | beer is over-rated | 09:55 |
| Mithrandir | beer is good | 09:56 |
| HiddenWolf | Keybuk, apple-juice for you then. :) | 10:07 |
| HiddenWolf | Keybuk, with a straw. :) | 10:07 |
| Keybuk | vodka! | 10:07 |
| HiddenWolf | Keybuk, Would I have to carry you out in that case? | 10:11 |
| Keybuk | I'm feeling daring | 10:39 |
| Keybuk | let's see if I can get to X | 10:39 |
| Keybuk | cor | 10:41 |
| Keybuk | I can | 10:41 |
| Keybuk | I still want to know what that strange sh/run-parts thing is in rcS | 10:45 |
| Keybuk | ahhhh | 10:49 |
| Keybuk | it's in a modprobe-post-install rule | 10:49 |
| HiddenWolf | Keybuk, you're working without X? | 11:10 |
| Keybuk | I was | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | I have X now | 11:11 |
| Keybuk | Kamion: any alarm bells ringing if I suggest making /tmp and /var/run tmpfs? | 11:20 |
| Kamion | the main problem is partman doesn't know how to do that :P | 11:31 |
| Keybuk | why does partman need to know? | 11:31 |
| Kamion | because it sets up fstab ... | 11:31 |
| Keybuk | virtual filesystems are mounted long before fstab is around :) | 11:31 |
| Kamion | er | 11:32 |
| Keybuk | cf. our discussion about the futility of having /proc in there | 11:32 |
| Kamion | you mean admins don't get to choose? I don't think that's so good | 11:32 |
| Kamion | my server has problems with /tmp being tmpfs, because (a) various applications I can't be bothered to fix write lots of stuff in there, (b) it's too low on memory for all the stuff they want to write | 11:32 |
| Keybuk | hmm, I can see the argument for being able to choose /tmp | 11:33 |
| Kamion | /var/run's probably ok | 11:33 |
| Keybuk | /var/run is never large, it's just pid files and sockets | 11:33 |
| Keybuk | (and having it as a tmpfs would solve a major ordering issue I'm currently having <g>) | 11:33 |
| Kamion | but by the same token I don't see why we need to force it in initramfs either ... oh? | 11:33 |
| Keybuk | there's a bunch of rcS stuff to clean up /var/run before things are started | 11:33 |
| Keybuk | but I'd have to move that all into the initramfs in case udev starts the things now | 11:34 |
| Keybuk | rcS should increasingly become "things udev doesn't do" | 11:34 |
| Keybuk | I'll have a think and a play with some different ideas, see which works best and doesn't break anything | 11:35 |
| Kamion | ah, hm | 11:35 |
| Keybuk | also having it as a tmpfs actually means we can start networking before the real filesystem, which is a current snag | 11:36 |
| Kamion | we'd have to make sure everything works with /var/run as a tmpfs; IIRC there were a few broken packages that installed files there in .debs or in the postinst | 11:36 |
| Keybuk | /etc/network/run would become /var/run/network, and all would be happy | 11:36 |
| Keybuk | Kamion: yeah, I checked main for them, and couldn't immediately see any -- have to check postinst yet though | 11:36 |
| Keybuk | at the moment I have the problem: | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | udevplug finds network card | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | udevd calls ifup | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | ifup can't write to /etc/network/run/ifstate | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | (time passes) | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | root filesystem gets checked and mounted rw | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | and, of course, if you swap the two... you get | 11:41 |
| Keybuk | root filesystem can't be chcked because /dev/hda1 doesn't exist | 11:42 |
| Keybuk | root filesystem remounted rw, and evil error gets shown | 11:42 |
| Keybuk | udevplug finds block device | 11:42 |
| Keybuk | udevd creates /dev/hda1 | 11:42 |
| Keybuk | :) | 11:42 |
| === Kamion uploads ubuntu-meta to suck in new pcmciautils | ||
| Keybuk | heh | 12:00 |
| Kamion | I should probably start running around debian-installer preparing stuff for .15 | 12:00 |
| Keybuk | I haven't even started the udev udeb stuff yet :-/ | 12:00 |
| Keybuk | it's just a udeb with a bunch of binaries in | 12:01 |
| Kamion | <cjwatson@cairhien ~/src/ubuntu/debian-installer/debian-installer-20051026ubuntu3/build>$ wcgrep pcmcia-cs-udeb pkg-lists | wc -l | 12:01 |
| Kamion | 21 | 12:01 |
| Kamion | joy | 12:01 |
| Kamion | just try not to emulate Marco's trick of continually leaving stuff out of the udeb | 12:01 |
| Keybuk | lol | 12:01 |
| Keybuk | I guess I'll have to modify hw-detect too | 12:01 |
| Kamion | hm? what for? | 12:01 |
| Kamion | oh, udevplug | 12:01 |
| Keybuk | to make it call the right bits of udev | 12:01 |
| Kamion | I was planning to move that into rootskel, I'm fed up with running around modifying a billion different pieces | 12:02 |
| Kamion | tell me what's needed and I'll get it incorporated in the right place | 12:02 |
| Kamion | just run udevplug? | 12:02 |
| Keybuk | let me upload our new very-simple udev.init for you, so you can see | 12:02 |
| Kamion | for udev.init, the plan is for udev-udeb to ship /lib/debian-installer-startup.d/S02udev with whatever it needs to do | 12:03 |
| Keybuk | http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/udev.init | 12:03 |
| Keybuk | basically it's | 12:03 |
| Keybuk | mount /dev | 12:03 |
| Keybuk | udevd | 12:03 |
| Keybuk | cp /lib/udev/devices into /dev | 12:04 |
| Mithrandir | Keybuk: do you want the udeb bits for bootchart submitted, or should I just upload them? | 12:04 |
| Keybuk | uidevplug | 12:04 |
| Keybuk | Mithrandir: just upload them, if they don't touch the ordinary boot stuff | 12:04 |
| Mithrandir | ok | 12:04 |
| Mithrandir | they don't. Or shouldn't, at least. | 12:04 |
| Kamion | Keybuk: take the start bit of that and make it /lib/debian-installer-startup.d/S02udev | 12:04 |
| Keybuk | ok, that's easy enough then -- without the initramfs stuff, I guess? | 12:05 |
| Keybuk | can I guarantee that the installer would have 2.6.15 so skip the "abort!abort!abort!" bit? | 12:05 |
| Kamion | you won't be in initramfs | 12:05 |
| Keybuk | ok | 12:05 |
| Kamion | hm, no, best have the error check, stuff is confusing enough at that stage | 12:06 |
| Keybuk | that's not "in initramfs", there's a check there to make sure that initramfs didn't run on a non-2.6.15 kernel | 12:06 |
| Keybuk | right | 12:06 |
| Kamion | well, let me rephrase that. you won't be in initramfs FOR NOW | 12:06 |
| Keybuk | lol | 12:06 |
| Kamion | that might change later, but if it does, it'll be initramfs for the whole installer | 12:06 |
| Keybuk | *blink* | 12:06 |
| Keybuk | is that "install a system, then exec run-init when done" ? :p | 12:07 |
| Kamion | nah, just initramfs as an initrd replacement | 12:07 |
| Keybuk | oh right | 12:07 |
| Kamion | although I suppose you could :) | 12:07 |
| Keybuk | thought you had the entire installer in an initramfs there | 12:07 |
| Keybuk | which would be kinda cute | 12:07 |
| Keybuk | it's /technically/ "only mounting the root filesystem" ... with the added bonus of making one first | 12:08 |
| === Kamion grins | ||
| Keybuk | great for kiosk mode ... they reinstall themselves when they reboot | 12:08 |
| Kamion | network configuration would be amusing | 12:08 |
| Kamion | it'd be a bit like tccboot, only more so, especially if you did a gentoo version | 12:08 |
| Keybuk | you know it'd rock | 12:08 |
| Keybuk | gentubuntu | 12:09 |
| Keybuk | I bet jbailey would like it | 12:10 |
| Keybuk | I swear he wants X in the initramfs | 12:10 |
| Mithrandir | that'd make X start early enough in the boot, at least. | 12:11 |
| Mithrandir | can tcc be used to bootstrap gcc? | 12:11 |
| Keybuk | Google says yeah ... *cough* | 12:13 |
| === Keybuk giggles at vorlon | ||
| Keybuk | OMG THIS NEW-FANGLED-SHINY-INIT VIOLATES POLICY! SEVERITY SHALLOW-GRAVE! | 12:15 |
| Keybuk | "oh, wait, it's sysv-rc ... uh, maybe it's policy's fault" | 12:15 |
| Kamion | jbailey: please remove that zoneinfo-udeb patch I did from glibc at your next convenience; the installer no longer needs it | 12:19 |
| Kamion | or tell me and I'll do it | 12:20 |
| Keybuk | Kamion: do you know what kind of /dev rules we want for d-i? | 12:28 |
| Keybuk | I guess we want the default naming rules, but do we also want things like /dev/disk/by-* ? | 12:29 |
| Kamion | default + devfs-compat | 12:29 |
| Kamion | not sure about /dev/disk/by-* | 12:29 |
| Kamion | probably not for now | 12:29 |
| Kamion | we can add them when we come up with a good reason | 12:29 |
| Keybuk | ugh, I'll have to rewrite devfs-compat *cry* | 12:32 |
| Keybuk | the old rules flat-out don't work anymore | 12:33 |
| === Keybuk wonders whether Marco has already | ||
| Kamion | I believe Debian's d-i works when built with udev, so probably ... | 12:35 |
| Kamion | well, networking is apparently broken, haven't investigated for myself yet | 12:35 |
| Mithrandir | we could just rip out all the devfs names and use the old ones again. | 12:36 |
| Kamion | I'm not going for that degree of forkage from Debian | 12:38 |
| Kamion | there should be an abstraction layer | 12:38 |
| Kamion | that can go into Debian | 12:38 |
| Mithrandir | isn't debian going to go with udev soonish? | 12:38 |
| Kamion | yes but 2.4 will still be supported for a while | 12:38 |
| Mithrandir | hm, ok | 12:39 |
| Mithrandir | as in "for etch"? | 12:39 |
| Kamion | dunno | 12:39 |
| Keybuk | the problem is that the devfs names are about as reliable as daniels | 12:39 |
| Kamion | there are parts of d-i that still rely on walking /dev/discs to get at the list of disks on the system | 12:39 |
| Kamion | those need to be fixed to use parted/libparted | 12:39 |
| Kamion | but for now it's not just a trivial sed job to change them] | 12:40 |
| Kamion | and Linux paths have changed around so much in the last three years that I have zero belief that they won't change again, so having an abstraction layer in between d-i code and device paths is good for us anyway | 12:40 |
| Keybuk | yeah | 12:45 |
| Keybuk | Linux paths are now totally non-fixed | 12:45 |
| Keybuk | it's up to the distro/app to pick them | 12:45 |
| Keybuk | the trouble with the devfs paths is that they're a bit racey | 12:45 |
| Keybuk | when devfs was around, it was easy, because the kernel could keep track of the enum with a BKL around it | 12:45 |
| Keybuk | but in userspace, we've no idea how to make a number that truly counts the number of (e.g.) cdroms | 12:46 |
| Keybuk | so with udev, you end up with /dev/cdroms/cdrom0 /dev/cdroms/cdrom4 /dev/cdroms/cdrom9 | 12:46 |
| Keybuk | which makes most things (including hw-detect) sulk | 12:46 |
| Keybuk | or, worse, you end up with two things trying to be /dev/cdroms/cdrom2 | 12:46 |
| Kamion | right, I'm happy to move for special cases where it really bites us, but I don't want to commit to doing so for everything | 12:47 |
| Mithrandir | as long as you can find all the cd-roms in the system, that's not a problem, really. | 12:47 |
| Kamion | and for those, I'd rather make the code fall back to devfs paths so that I can keep in sync with Debian | 12:47 |
| Keybuk | heh | 12:48 |
| Keybuk | annoyingly there isn't a way to do that anyway | 12:48 |
| Keybuk | none of the buses expose the media type in /sys | 12:48 |
| Keybuk | and then you have SATA, which is fucked | 12:49 |
| Keybuk | IDE devices appear as SCSI generic devices | 12:49 |
| Keybuk | so they don't show up in /proc/ide .. and you can't use the device name to decide what it is | 12:49 |
| Keybuk | which is why d-i doesn't work on Acer laptops | 12:49 |
| Keybuk | (amongst other things) | 12:49 |
| Mithrandir | vendor for my SATA stuff seems to be set to ATA.. | 12:51 |
| Mithrandir | no idea if that can be used for something | 12:51 |
| Keybuk | dunno, I'll play with that more when quest arrives I guess | 12:51 |
| Mithrandir | which quest is that named after? | 12:52 |
| Keybuk | all of them | 12:52 |
| Keybuk | I've not thought of a better name yet | 12:52 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: Wha? | 01:07 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: What would I do with X in the initramfs? | 01:07 |
| jbailey | Kamion: Thanks! | 01:07 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: like the idea | 01:08 |
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