[05:00] <dholbach> Hi everybody!
[05:01] <dholbach> can everybody, who is here for the Desktop Team meeting state their name?
[05:01] <Nafallo> ChristianBjlevik
[05:01] <dholbach> i see
[05:02] <dholbach> that gives the meeting a more cozy atmosphere
[05:02] <dholbach> shall we wait a minute or two? :)
[05:02] <dholbach> hi Simira 
[05:02] <dholbach> hub excuses himself
[05:02] <Simira> hi there. I seemed to have dropped into a meeting
[05:02] <ogra> where is our jdub ? 
[05:03] <dholbach> Simira: we were just about to start, interested in the desktop team meeting?
[05:03] <dholbach> ogra: good question - some of us ask that ourselves for some days now ;)
[05:03] <seb128> ogra: probably sleeping
[05:03] <Simira> dholbach : not really, I'm on a workshop with another job ;)
[05:03] <seb128> I've spoken with him on IRC 2 days ago
[05:03] <seb128> he still have no DSL
[05:03] <dholbach> Simira: i see
[05:03] <ogra> dholbach, i know he got a new DSL line which was delayed ... but thats a info from beginning of last week
[05:04] <dholbach> ok
[05:04] <ogra> who doesnt :)
[05:04] <dholbach> did vuntz say anything? :)
[05:04] <seb128> vuntz: ping 
[05:04] <dholbach> he just said, he wanted to have the announce on the fridge ;)
[05:04] <dholbach> maybe that's why he didnt turn up :)
[05:05] <dholbach> ok... let's get going anyways
[05:05] <dholbach> seb128 and i were wondering, how we can put more life into the desktop team
[05:06] <dholbach> while the announce ot the team itself was a success (look at the bunch of people, and especially upstream people that are in the channel), we thought we might promote the idea a bit more
[05:06] <dholbach> we started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas with a bunch of ideas
[05:07] <dholbach> i personally felt, that we might need a bit more of organisation and places to point people to, where they could help out, since the observation "seb128 does GNOME all alone" is kind of wrong ;)
[05:07] <dholbach> i hope we can all agree on that :)
[05:08] <seb128> yeah
[05:08] <Nafallo> sure, it's seb128 and dholbach now ;-)
[05:08] <seb128> lol
[05:08] <dholbach> haha :)
[05:08] <MarioMeyer> lol
[05:08] <seb128> one to break stuff, the other one to fix
[05:08] <Nafallo> lol
[05:08] <seb128> and we switch every week :p
[05:08] <dholbach> we switch every day to keep it exciting
[05:08] <dholbach> or well... :)
[05:08] <seb128> ;)
[05:09] <dholbach> do you have any thoughts on this?
[05:09] <ogra> i think the prob is that the desktop is in main ...
[05:09] <Nafallo> better start making random switches for even more excitement :-)
[05:09] <dholbach> initiatives we could start, things you'd expect from the team, ...
[05:09] <seb128> and?
[05:09] <ogra> its not as easy as getting your hands on universe packages
[05:09] <dholbach> ogra:  do you think it'd help to state clearly, that we're happy to sponsor uploads until people are ready for main?
[05:09] <ogra> people wont just jump on packages that are in main like they do for universe packages
[05:10] <seb128> you can bug triage, have nice idea, package new stuff, send patches, do artwork (hey lllmanulll), etc
[05:10] <ogra> dholbach, absolutely
[05:10] <dholbach> ogra: ok, maybe we should make that clearer
[05:10] <lllmanulll> Hey :)
[05:10] <ogra> dholbach, not clearer, but more public .... shout it out to the world :)
[05:11] <lllmanulll> I'll ask you guys about the stuff I did yesterday in a while, if there's nothing else to talk about :p
[05:11] <dholbach> i thought, that maybe with a bit more of organisation (like description of workflow, ie: what to do, when upgrading a package, ...) might help with that too (to lower the entry point)
[05:12] <dholbach> hey vuntz_ 
[05:12] <dholbach> vuntz_: we started without you already
[05:12] <seb128> hi vuntz_
[05:12] <vuntz_> hi
[05:12] <vuntz_> sorry for being late
[05:12] <dholbach> what would you all like to see from the desktop team? or do in the desktop team?
[05:13] <dholbach> does the MeetingIdeas page give you ideas, answer questions?
[05:13] <ogra> what is " own Wiki table (apart from UniverseCandidates" ?
[05:14] <dholbach> ogra: ah yes... i wanted to have a gnome/ubuntu-desktop specific table of stuff we take care of and we want to see ASAP
[05:14] <ogra> does that mean NEW sftware or software that should move into the default desktop ? 
[05:14] <dholbach> might move into the default desktop at some stage
[05:14] <ogra> ah, yes
[05:14] <dholbach> for example marlin (a sound editor) is still bumpy, but i'd really like to see it - so if we as a team could try to get it in (and working together with upstream), that'd be great
[05:15] <ogra> heh
[05:16] <dholbach> so you all see everything you want from the desktopteam going already? :)
[05:17] <dholbach> once we're big enough as a team, we could even take more care of the gnome part of universe
[05:17] <vuntz_> well, I think the team just needs a bit more organization, but in the end, we don't want too much organization (I guess)
[05:17] <dholbach> vuntz_: it does, i agree with you
[05:18] <dholbach> vuntz_: can you think of something that should be better defined?
[05:19] <dholbach> seb128: do you think the point about making the desktop specs more "accessible" to people from the desktop team makes sense?
[05:19] <vuntz_> dholbach: have permanent links of bugs to triage
[05:19] <vuntz_> dholbach: have lists of easy bugs to fix
[05:19] <dholbach> vuntz_: yeah, that'd be great
[05:19] <vuntz_> lists of easy tasks to do
[05:19] <seb128> dholbach: how accessible?
[05:20] <vuntz_> it's also a matter of showing that it's easy to contribute :-)
[05:20] <dholbach> seb128: 'accessible' like bits of specs, where people can help out
[05:20] <seb128> we started alist of tasks
[05:20] <dholbach> vuntz_: ++
[05:20] <dholbach> yeah, i think that's a good start
[05:20] <dholbach> did everybody know about DesktopTeam/TODO? :)
[05:20] <ogra> nope
[05:20] <vuntz_> not me
[05:20] <seb128> I put some stuff here which would be useful
[05:20] <seb128> than we want to do
[05:20] <seb128> but what we don't do yet because we are too busy
[05:21] <seb128> ie: stuff nice to contribute
[05:21] <seb128> like splitting totem to make a mozilla binary package :)
[05:21] <Nafallo> nope
[05:21] <Nafallo> and getting the menuicon back :-P
[05:21] <seb128> ?
[05:21] <seb128> we have no such bug
[05:21] <lllmanulll> I agree about the "easy things to do", and with this kind of list, I would certainly contribute much more :)
[05:21] <dholbach> ReturnOfTheMenuIcons-BOF :)
[05:21] <vuntz_> hey lllmanulll :-)
[05:22] <Nafallo> seb128: I haven't filed it yet :-)
[05:22] <seb128> lllmanulll: I've a special task for you, you started on it
[05:22] <seb128> lllmanulll: the new gnome-session logout dialog seems a perfect job for you :)
[05:22] <ogra> what about "ship activeX control dlls with wine" *g*
[05:22] <vuntz_> also, I'm wondering how much the desktop team should work with upstream
[05:22] <vuntz_> ie, how much new development should be done
[05:22] <ogra> i guess wine will enter main at some point ...
[05:22] <lllmanulll> seb128: All right, perfect :)
[05:23] <seb128> lllmanulll: you really want to work on this? would be great
[05:23] <vuntz_> (or if it's a "package, triage bugs & fix bugs" team)
[05:23] <seb128> lllmanulll: that's probably much easier than the add to panel
[05:24] <dholbach> vuntz_: the development depends on how much people are contributing
[05:24] <lllmanulll> seb128: No problem
[05:24] <seb128> rock
[05:24] <vuntz_> dholbach: right :-)
[05:24] <lllmanulll> seb128: I guess it would be quite easy, yeah
[05:24] <dholbach> vuntz_: if somebody wants to hack gnome-panel to do $SOMETHING_CRAZY, we could push it into ubuntu to get people testing it and we'd contribute it upstream - i think that makes sense
[05:25] <mvo> in general we do not too much development. but some HIG experts would be very welcome IMO :)
[05:25] <dholbach> (as an example)
[05:25] <lllmanulll> seb128: Huh, let me make sure : it's just a very simple dialog with four or five buttons with icons, and "OK" and "Cancel", right ? :)
[05:25] <Nafallo> mvo++
[05:25] <dholbach> mpt is unfortunately in holidays
[05:25] <dholbach> i think he'd have had some ideas on this
[05:25] <dholbach> i just created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/NewSoftware
[05:25] <vuntz_> seb128/lllmanulll: note that markmc wanted to move the dialog to the panel
[05:25] <seb128> lllmanulll: let's discuss that later on -desktop, but that's a real panel with 2 areas for the 2 kinds of actions (like windows has 2 buttons) and the icons here to do that
[05:26] <seb128> vuntz_: what dialog? accept lllmanulll's work upstream?
[05:26] <vuntz_> seb128: logout dialog
[05:26] <seb128> oh, ok
[05:26] <seb128> doesn't matter where the code is
[05:26] <seb128> :)
[05:27] <seb128> yeah
[05:27] <seb128> I agree with mvo
[05:27] <seb128> an usuability team would rock
[05:27] <dholbach> did you all know about UsabilityWishlist?
[05:27] <seb128> somebody to ping when you get usuability/HIG bugs and I've not clue about this
[05:27] <lllmanulll> dholbach: Huh, no
[05:27] <dholbach> :)
[05:27] <seb128> not "no clue", but are not good at designing :)
[05:27] <Nafallo> dholbach IS the wiki-master :-)
[05:28] <mvo> usability team++
[05:28] <lllmanulll> Yeah
[05:28] <lllmanulll> But that's a lot of teams :) Couldn't usability issues be given to the Desktop team ? Or is this a totallly weird idea ? :)
[05:29] <dholbach> a subteam, like some people who "have a clue" and enjoy doing HIG/usabilty?
[05:29] <mvo> yeah, let's make it only one team for now
[05:29] <dholbach> i met a guy here in berlin, who'd enjoy working on this
[05:30] <dholbach> as ogra said: we should raise awareness of the team
[05:30] <lllmanulll> I would love working on usability issues too
[05:30] <dholbach> i think there are a lot of people using ubuntu, who would care about the desktop and love working on this
[05:30] <seb128> would be nice to have a different list or something like GNOME guys do
[05:30] <seb128> so you can Cc: usuability-list on a bug to get their opinion
[05:31] <dholbach> sounds good, as soon as we have some more people for this
[05:32] <dholbach> shall we start DesktopTeam/Organisation and dump our ideas there?
[05:32] <dholbach> as we don't have a gobby session here ;)
[05:32] <Nafallo> why don't we? :-)
[05:33] <dholbach> because the wiki saves stuff more securely than gobby? :-p
[05:33] <ogra> bah
[05:34] <Nafallo> oki. I have only used it once so... ;-)
[05:34] <Nafallo> ogra: yay! :-)
[05:34] <dholbach> Nafallo: it trashed a couple of specs at UBZ :)
[05:35] <ogra> dholbach, thats a user error :)
[05:35] <mvo> ogra: ...
[05:35] <dholbach> yeah, sorry, it was my mistake to not save every minute :)
[05:35] <Nafallo> hehe
[05:35] <ogra> *grin*
[05:36] <Nafallo> ogra: implement auto-saving before MainInclusion to make it dholbach-friendly aswell? :-)
[05:36] <ogra> hehe
[05:36] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Organisation
[05:37] <ogra> Nafallo, if $USER == 'somekindofholbach' autosave on ? 
[05:37] <Nafallo> lol
[05:37] <mvo> ogra: will you fix "close button closes on all clients without saving and asking" too first?
[05:37] <dholbach> IS_DHOLBACH_USING_THIS=1 gobby       works normally
[05:38] <ogra> mvo, probably ...
[05:38] <ogra> :)
[05:39] <ogra> i'll look at it ... i want it for edubuntu so i'll probably have to do the fixes
[05:39] <ogra> dholbach, Organisation looks good ...
[05:40] <ogra> so far
[05:40] <lllmanulll> So what's the decision about usability ? Create a new list/team ? I'd *love* to participate :)
[05:41] <dholbach> we should start with the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com list
[05:41] <dholbach> and the team as it is
[05:41] <seb128> I'm for creating the tools now
[05:41] <seb128> I don't agree
[05:41] <lllmanulll> All right, I vote for seb128 !
[05:41] <lllmanulll> :-p
[05:41] <dholbach> :)
[05:41] <seb128> usuability is something that is useful for desktop guys
[05:41] <dholbach> it's just that there is ~0 traffic on ubuntu-desktop@
[05:42] <seb128> but need to be created because desktop guys often are not usuability expert
[05:42] <seb128> or don't care
[05:42] <seb128> or are not good at designing stuff
[05:42] <seb128> and usuability guys probably don't want to follow all the technical discussions
[05:42] <seb128> right, which is a different topic
[05:42] <ogra> seb128, we'll need the people first ...
[05:43] <seb128> I tend to think than people come when the thing exist
[05:43] <ogra> make a call for help to the mailing lists at first step
[05:43] <seb128> and don't come to force you to create it
[05:43] <dholbach> look at the motu business - we STILL have no mailing list - do you think we'd get it for ubuntu-usability@ faster? :)
[05:43] <ogra> get people in to show there is momentum ...
[05:43] <ogra> than ask for a list
[05:44] <ogra> vuntz_, because you talked about the topic nextto it ;)
[05:44] <seb128> vuntz_: what do you think? Creating a list first which will encourage enthousiastic people to subscribe, or other way?
[05:44] <seb128> trying to get people using -desktop to start
[05:44] <seb128> and moving if there is enough of them
[05:44] <vuntz_> I'd say it's better to have only one list at the beginning
[05:44] <seb128> k
[05:44] <seb128> so let's use -desktop for it
[05:44] <seb128> you guys win
[05:45] <vuntz_> and I'm a bit afraid that we ask too much to usability people if they are only 2 or 3
[05:45] <vuntz_> (that's what's happening in GNOME for bugs...)
[05:45] <seb128> I'm not unhappy
[05:45] <dholbach> *nod*
[05:45] <seb128> but I tend to think that usuability guys will not subscribe to a technical list
[05:46] <ogra> is the -desktop list a technical list ? 
[05:46] <seb128> is supposed to be yep
[05:46] <ogra> i havent seen any technical stuff there yet
[05:46] <seb128> the ubuntu-devel of the desktop team
[05:46] <dholbach> lllmanulll: super, have a nice day :)
[05:46] <seb128> no, there is virtually no discussion atm
[05:46] <seb128> we use IRC most of the time :)
[05:46] <lllmanulll> Cheers :)
[05:47] <vuntz_> what about asking the people who will be in the usability subteam ?
[05:47] <seb128> yeah
[05:47] <seb128> dholbach: make a point to send a mail about bringing usuability people to the desktop team
[05:47] <seb128> like 'call to voluntars"
[05:47] <dholbach> YESSIR
[05:48] <ogra> a real dholbach announce please :) they seem to attract people ;)
[05:48] <ogra> (see the bugdays)
[05:48] <dholbach> merci beaucoup
[05:48] <seb128> with a nut of vuntz_ with it
[05:48] <seb128> so it's perfect :)
[05:48] <ogra> yeah
[05:49] <dholbach> TODO-ed it (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO)
[05:49] <seb128> cool
[05:49] <ogra> yay
[05:49] <seb128> dholbach: should be keep the DONE points on a table to show what we have done?
[05:49] <seb128> or just drop them
[05:50] <dholbach> seb128: that sounds good - i always just dropped them
[05:50] <dholbach> but we will do that
[05:50] <seb128> dholbach: I've changed
[05:50] <dholbach> and because the lists will be sooo long in the end, we will print them as books and they'll bestsellers
[05:50] <dholbach> ROCK
[05:50] <seb128> :)
 we use IRC most of the time :)
[05:51] <dholbach> good point
[05:51] <vuntz_> seb128: btw, we might need to change this
[05:51] <ogra> dholbach, make it a requirement for all ubuntu books to put them in as appendix A
[05:51] <vuntz_> (if we want more people to contribute)
[05:51] <seb128> yeah
[05:51] <ogra> yup
[05:51] <dholbach> yeah, we need to document better
[05:52] <vuntz_> having more discussion on -desktop is a good way to show that the team is alive and well-working
[05:52] <dholbach> sometimes, even i have no clue about things to come on (because i'm not chatting to upstream or debian guys all day)
[05:53] <seb128> yeah, let's try to use the list when discussions could interest people
[05:53] <seb128> I just sent it to -desktop
[05:53] <vuntz_> seb128: you talked about things that could interest people ;-)
[05:54] <seb128> vuntz_: define "people" :p
[05:54] <Nafallo> ahh, that's what I was doing!
[05:54] <seb128> do you call yourself people? :)
[05:54] <Nafallo> *subscribing*
[05:55] <vuntz_> :-)
[05:55] <dholbach> that went to u-d-a@
[05:55] <dholbach> :)
[05:55] <ogra> and to u-d 
[05:55] <ogra> and to u-dt
[05:56] <ogra> seb128, crossposter :p
[05:56] <seb128> announce and desktop only
[05:56] <seb128> and desktop just because we said we should show we do work :)
[05:56] <dholbach> nautilus-actions?
[05:56] <dholbach> wow :)
[05:56] <seb128> dholbach: read planet GNOME
[05:56] <dholbach> i did
[05:56] <seb128> k
[05:58] <dholbach> so what will you guys do next week in your desktop team activities?
[05:59] <vuntz_> hug everyone ?
[06:00] <dholbach> sounds good :)
[06:00] <vuntz_> or is it a bad answer?
[06:00] <dholbach> i just thought, this might bring up some ideas :)
[06:00] <ogra> isnt hugging a good idea ? 
[06:01] <dholbach> it is :)
[06:01] <ogra> i mean, dont we do our regular stuff on desktop packages anyway ? 
[06:01] <vuntz_> dholbach: I think I'd like to help people getting involved
[06:01] <dholbach> vuntz_: what were you thinking about?
[06:01] <vuntz_> I'm pretty useless since I don't have a lot of time
[06:02] <ogra> i.e. i'm fighting with a xscreensaver split into 6 packages .... do you want me to state that here ? 
[06:02] <vuntz_> dholbach: well, making an easy-to-find place with easy tasks
[06:02] <dholbach> vuntz_: you're not useless, i'm quite happy to have you here
[06:02] <vuntz_> to be honest, this is something I'd like to do for GNOME too :-)
[06:03] <dholbach> i very much appreciate this
[06:03] <vuntz_> :-)
[06:03] <seb128> that's why you guys should not vote for vuntz for the foundation :)
[06:03] <vuntz_> seb128: I hope they're not Foundation memebers ;-)
[06:04] <seb128> ;)
[06:04] <vuntz_> okay, so, I'd like to see this:
[06:05] <vuntz_> everytime something interesting in the desktop is done, a note is added on a wiki page
[06:05] <vuntz_> then, we can make nice summaries so people can see what has been done
[06:05] <seb128> good idea
[06:06] <\sh> moins
[06:06] <dholbach> that's brilliant, yes
[06:06] <vuntz_> ideally, I'd like to see such a summary every week (or every two weeks)
[06:06] <vuntz_> the mail would also contain some easy love tasks
[06:06] <dholbach> seb128: that will mean, we have to do more work, to make those summaries more exciting
[06:07] <seb128> I already work like 15 hours/day
[06:07] <seb128> :p
[06:07] <vuntz_> (this is something secret I'm planning to do for GNOME too, btw)
[06:07] <ogra> tsk... he sleeps 9h ? thats way to much :)
[06:07] <dholbach> * uploaded gnome 2.15.2
[06:07] <dholbach> * had a nice dog walk
[06:07] <dholbach> * watched soccer game metz-nancy
[06:07] <dholbach> * uploaded new gnumeric
[06:07] <dholbach> * watched a nice movie in the cinema
[06:07] <dholbach> * did a bug day
[06:08] <dholbach> ^ that sounds good :)
[06:08] <vuntz_> metz-nancy
[06:08] <vuntz_> ahahahah
[06:08] <vuntz_> does someone plan to send a summary of the meeting?
[06:09] <vuntz_> great
[06:09] <seb128> vuntz_: thanks for voluntaring
[06:09] <dholbach> have to do that for the a11y meeting anyways
[06:09] <seb128> s/vuntz_/dholbach
[06:09] <dholbach> de rien
[06:09] <vuntz_> dholbach: I'm starting to be used to do this too ;-)
[06:09] <vuntz_> anyway, less work for me. I love this :-)
[06:09] <dholbach> :)
[06:10] <dholbach> i think for a first meeting this went quite well
[06:10] <dholbach> less chaotic than i thought ;)
[06:10] <seb128> yeah
[06:11] <dholbach> shall we have a meeting in one month of time?
[06:11] <Simira> I think maybe trying to blank a cd with cd-record has trashed a lot of my applications and made nothing work...
[06:11] <dholbach> (for those that don't enjoy christmas with their family) ;)
[06:11] <\sh> uh..
[06:11] <slomo> dholbach: good idea, i'll be more active at that time ;)
[06:12] <Nafallo> dholbach: *grin*
[06:12] <\sh> 25. december is the birthday of my ex..and anglo-saxons highest xmas day..
[06:12] <dholbach> \sh: you might have missed the smiley
[06:12] <\sh> that means in the morning i'm with my little one...in the afternoon ok
[06:12] <seb128> friday 16th?
[06:12] <dholbach> sounds good
[06:12] <\sh> dholbach: there is no smiley for me...normally i don't celebrate xmas when I'm in single status
[06:12] <dholbach> should we have different times?
[06:13] <dholbach> to accomodate the australian/american/asian folks?
[06:13] <seb128> hum
[06:13] <dholbach> or are we all ok with 16 UTC?
[06:13] <seb128> 9utc?
[06:14] <dholbach> 16th, 16 UTC sounds good, doesnt it? :)
[06:14] <seb128> fine with me :)
[06:14] <dholbach> ok, i'll put that in the meeting minutes as well
[06:14] <dholbach> thank you very much everybody... i really appreciated your ideas and input
[06:15] <dholbach> to be honest... in the first few silent minutes, i thought we were doomed :)
[06:15] <dholbach> but now i'm quite confident, we'll get a super-duper desktop team rolling
[06:15] <seb128> :)
[06:16] <vuntz_> have to go
[06:16] <vuntz_> see you later
[06:16] <seb128> was a nice meeting
[06:16] <seb128> thanks dholbach
[06:16] <seb128> thanks everybody
[06:16] <ogra> thanks daniel
[06:16] <dholbach> i enjoyed it
[06:17] <dholbach> everybody dismissed :)
[06:17] <Nafallo> :-)