[12:38] mdke: ok I got the inital reformating of the packaging done. How do you want it? I made enough changes that the diff is twice a big as the individual files [12:38] lol [12:38] LaserJock, however you prefer [12:38] should I just email it to you or would it be better to send it to ubuntu-doc? [12:39] LaserJock, to me is fine, i'll stick it up tonight [12:40] k [12:44] I sent it to you. I hope it worked ok. It is my first time doing documentation or Docbook or xml. [12:45] LaserJock, I'll check it out when i reboot into breeeeeezy [12:46] mdke: np, take your time. I gotta get some more merges done for the MOTU ;-) [12:47] good stuff [12:47] LaserJock, is there anything new in gnome-blog? [12:47] merging that would be cool [12:47] if there is [12:51] mdke: doesn't look like it. Debian is 0.8-5 and that is what we have in Dapper [12:51] damn lazy maintainers [12:52] I've never used it but it looks like 0.9 has been out since march [01:13] LaserJock, nice work, looks great [01:13] thanks, it's a start anyway [01:14] yeah [01:14] just needs a bit of tidying up and a diagram [01:17] yeah, the diagram [01:17] I see it in the pdf [01:18] how does it look in html? [01:19] shall we stick it up on the preview server? [01:21] how does what look like in html? the packaging guide [01:22] yeah [01:25] I guess it looks fine [01:25] I just did a quick xsltproc on it and everything was there at leas ;-) [01:25] t [01:26] how does the css part work? [01:27] i'll have a look now [01:32] LaserJock, ok i've made you a make target to build the html from the generic directory [01:34] ok, I see that [01:37] cool [01:37] ok, I was able to make a .jpg of the missing diagram [01:38] but where is it supposed to go? [01:39] good question :) [01:41] looks like the install guide used generic/images/C/ [01:42] oh i see [01:42] yes, that is fine, or use generic/packagingguide/images/ [01:42] whatever you like [01:44] do I need to worry about the language? should I have generic/packagingguide/image/C/? [01:44] yeah you can do that [01:44] if there is a translation, they put it in, if not, it uses C [01:45] k [01:47] see the top of ubuntu/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml for how to insert a picture [01:51] awesome work man [01:56] does the makefile need to be modified to add the image? [01:56] it shows up in yelp but not sure about html [02:00] no that's fine [02:00] i'll tweak it if necessary [02:09] mdke: ok, I just sent you a diff and image [02:11] LaserJock, on it now [02:20] LaserJock, done, great work dude [02:21] sweet [02:26] LaserJock, http://doc.ubuntu.com/generic/packagingguide/C/ [02:26] is that ok by you? [02:28] wow, cool [02:29] adding a link to the frontpage then [02:29] http://doc.ubuntu.com/ [02:29] ok, so now when I want to work on it from now on should I just email a patch to ubuntu-doc? [02:30] sure [02:30] ok, thanks so much for you help [02:30] LaserJock, do you think you'll be working on it fairly steadily? it will be worth getting commit access if so [02:31] mdke: I sure hope so, I am also working on the MOTU wiki so I am kinda turning into the MOTU documentation guy right now [02:32] LaserJock, in that case we can try and get you some commit access, i'll ask the rest of the team. Are you an Ubuntu member? [02:33] mdke: not yet, I am going to go for that soon I think. I have just been waiting until I had made enough contributions. [02:34] great [02:34] i think there was a decision taken to only grant commit access to ubuntu members [02:35] but that seems rather silly to me [02:35] i'll ask around [02:35] mdke: well, I can understand if I need to wait. [02:36] I can see where there needs to be some sort of proof of maturity [02:39] sure, but I already get the feeling you know what you're doing [02:40] LaserJock, don't forget to stick a licence on the doc [02:40] mdke: well, I can atleast assure you that I will ask before I do anything risky ;-) [02:41] :) [02:42] mdke: beyond ©right; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; ? [02:43] LaserJock, we usually put the licences on at the end of the document in full, but now that you mention it, I think what you've done is good enough [02:44] I just copyed what is in the install guide [02:44] okies [02:44] but that is still a WIP though right? [02:44] oh yeah [02:46] is the desktop starter guide a good doc to look at for learning [02:47] it's a bit complicated [02:48] it is in more than one file, and has all sorts of crazy stuff going on to make links work [02:48] yeah, I just noticed that. Is there a better one to get started with? === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:49] LaserJock, hmm, maybe not :) [02:49] jsgotangco, hello [02:49] mdke: oh well, I'll just have to dig right in ;-) [02:49] jsgotangco, can you tell me, what was that decision in the meeting the other day about commit access? [02:50] LaserJock, :) there are some decent docbook guides. But you already seem to know your way around ok [02:51] mdke: well, I have been using the wiki info and the Docbook Definitive Guide online but I am more interested in some of the stuff specific to the docteam [02:52] LaserJock, i'm not sure there is much tbh [02:53] mdke: that's ok, I will just dig around and ask here if I get stuck [02:54] great [03:01] hey you [03:01] sorry i was looking at the commits [03:01] mdke: all committers should be members first === mpt [n=mpt@ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:02] jsgotangco, Ubuntu members? [03:02] i think that will be a problem [03:03] mdke: that's what most of the other attendees suggested (Riddell, ogra, jbailey, etc.) [03:03] its a catch 22 [03:03] it'll pose a problem for those who have no interest on membership yet want to contribute to docs [03:03] you have to be a member to commit [03:03] yes that's correct [03:03] but you have to be a regular contributor to be a member [03:03] but on the other side [03:03] so it will take longer to be either [03:03] any active contributor can easily become a member based on work [03:04] i noticed at the last CC meeting that the CC are not easy with giving people membership, sustained contributions are required and patches don't convince them much [03:04] i think getting commit access should be easier than ubuntu membership [03:04] well just look at bhuvan's case [03:04] yeah [03:04] mako hesitated about bhuvan [03:04] he easily got in based on visibile contribs [03:04] ahh [03:05] he didn't easily get in [03:05] i didn't know that [03:05] he got in just about, and I gave him a glowing report [03:05] what do you suggest? [03:05] and he has a really good wiki page, in which every patch he's done is listed [03:06] well, if others disagree, i don't mind [03:06] but i'd suggest that we decide on commit access at our meetings [03:06] signing the CoC mandatory, of course [03:06] but not full membership [03:07] hmmm [03:10] my reason for agreeing to membership first before commit is that we're still using ubuntu servers and in no way different from uploading packages like what the devs do [03:10] and members have already shown sustainable contribs even on other fields [03:11] yeah but I think it is slightly different for the work we do [03:11] docs is a good first entry for many [03:11] i wouldn't think differently [03:11] also, we are short staffed, so sponsoring uploads (patches) is time consuming [03:12] would something like REVU that the MOTU use be useful? [03:12] well because we try to do everything at once [03:12] LaserJock: that would be helpful [03:13] what does it do? [03:14] mdke: you upload source packages for the MOTU to review and include in Universe [03:14] mdke: as long as you have a GPG key you can do it [03:14] right, but a human being still has to review them right? [03:14] mdke: then the MOTU review it and provide comments [03:15] well that is basically what we do with the mailing list - patch system [03:15] mdke: yes, but it is easier I think because it is all on a website [03:15] anyhow, my point is really that technical competence and ability has nothing to do with ubuntu membership, they look for sustained contribution over a period [03:16] but I have noticed that it still takes a lot of time to get stuff in because there is only so much time the MOTU have to review packages [03:16] if someone turns up who has written 3 debian books and is a master in xml, he wouldn't be able to have commit access for several months [03:16] because he has to be an ubuntu member first [03:16] LaserJock, yeah, it boils down to resources problems in the end I guess [03:16] mdke: it doesn't if a person contributes something in OOo its still a contribution, membership is about contribution and peer approval in my opinion [03:16] jsgotangco, over several months [03:16] members just makes filtering easier [03:17] mdke: debian has it worse really [03:17] well, considering that we've been working to make contributing to the docteam easier, i think this is a step backwards [03:17] anyhow, np [03:17] LaserJock, you'll have to wait :) [03:18] we lack structure hence we always end up in a stalemate on some issues [03:18] mdke: I'm certainly ok with that. It would be easier if I did have commit access but hopefully I will be a member soon [03:19] it wouldn't be aproblem if our svn is somewhere else really [03:19] but elmo's the guy handling it so... [03:19] a move to another system would break the social barriers although its also a catch 22 [03:20] jsgotangco, i don't follow you [03:20] what social barriers? [03:20] the social structure of svn itself [03:20] who approves commits [03:20] don't confuse those two issues [03:20] who creates the accounts [03:20] one issue is the amount of time it takes to create accounts [03:21] im not its still part of the issue though [03:21] another separate issue is when we consider a person ready to ask for elmo to create the accounts [03:21] the first issue is not a social barrier [03:21] the second issue is up to us [03:22] you know my schedule for now, i really can't commit heavily on such matters [03:22] yep [03:22] i'm just starting with my new job.. [03:22] :( [03:23] well i am also quite busy, and i want to do lots of things, hence my frustration at having to sponsor uploads for long periods of time [03:23] hmmm [03:23] our lack of people is part of my reasoning to not limit commit access to members [03:24] i'll try to look what's lacking in our wiki its probably just an internal doc thing :) [03:24] what is lacking? [03:24] like i said, i'll try to look :P [03:24] i don't think anything is dude [03:24] i'd still look [03:24] i'm bitching purely about this "membership before svn access" decision [03:25] well if you ask what my gripe is, is that no one attends meetings at all [03:26] well, the team is not big [03:26] i can make every other meeting [03:26] I'd make meetings, if most of them weren't at 0600 local ;) [03:26] let me add the next meeting in lp [03:27] Madpilot, what time is the next one for you? [03:27] we have been alternating quite a lot [03:27] 1400Z = 0600 local; when is the next one? [03:27] it'll be 22UTC next time [03:27] 22 [03:27] the thing depends on local time [03:27] sheeshh [03:28] can we make it 24? [03:28] that's 1400 local - I'm always at work... bleh [03:28] jsgotangco, what time is 24 where you are, in australia, US etc? [03:29] 24 would be 8am here and probably 10am in au [03:29] 2400Z is 1600 PST, and 1900 Eastern in North America [03:29] 4pm just like jeff's time [03:29] sounds good [03:30] 24 then? [03:31] hahah great that means i'll be in seoul during the meeting === mdke goes to sleep, having spammed the commit list enough for one day [03:32] nvm i'll just stick with 22 [03:33] mdke: thanks for all your help [03:33] any time [03:33] I'm going to be rearranging my working days a bit in the new year, hopefully I'll be able to make the 2200Z meetings at least some of the time then... (that'll be a bonus, I'm rearranging my hours for other reasons...) [03:33] please check your lp calendar if you're subscribed to udp calendar and check if its correct [03:34] hmm i already got to add it... [03:34] lp doesn't have a delete function [03:34] heh [03:35] im going to cook earlyer [03:35] brb [03:57] what is the best way to make patches to send to ubuntu-doc? [04:01] ah, maybe svn diff === bhuvan [n=ubuntu@59.92.36.36] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-38-37.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.36.36] has joined #ubuntu-doc === n1c0las_ [n=nicolas@nicolas.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob1 [n=rob@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === corey_ [n=corey@S0106001217da6aab.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === corey_ is now known as Burglaptop [06:33] too many of me! [06:33] at work and on the laptop [06:34] Burglaptop: you aren't still at work, are you? [06:35] nope [06:35] I just didn't logoff at work [06:36] http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/25659737/ [06:36] holy crap! [06:36] NSFW, though ;) [06:37] indeed [06:45] is kde 3.5 released? [06:45] I see the i18n stuff going in [06:46] kde would be smart to adopt a six month release cycle, three months off from gnome [06:47] Madpilot, grr, not registered [06:47] Madpilot, yes I will be coming on Sun afternoon [06:47] no pm, then? [06:47] yep [06:48] OK - D & A are coming for dinner, you're welcome to stay & invite C too [06:48] on Sun d&a for dinner at your place? [06:48] you certain the dirty dishes won [06:48] t kill them? [06:48] Clive only left on Tuesday, the dishes haven't had time to evolve yet :D === mpt [n=mpt@ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:51] colour scheme for a website: http://www.returnofdesign.com/showcolors.php?scheme=37 [06:51] nice find - bookmarked [06:52] doubt in ubuntu membership process.. [06:52] Madpilot, I think I am going to use it for my website [06:52] and any company I eventually launch [06:52] after becoming the member, is it just fine to sign the coc in lp .. or should we require to send the signed coc to mako ? [06:53] bhuvan, sign it in lp [06:53] it's done.. [06:54] you can actually sign the CoC before becoming a full member - I've done that [06:54] ok [06:56] Madpilot, you actually managed to get to CC meeting yet? [06:56] nope [06:57] next one is at 0600 local, Tuesday 6th Dec. I might try and make that one, just to observe [06:58] you have done enough to be put up for membership [06:58] if you think so [07:01] put up a wiki page with what you have done [07:02] Burglaptop: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Madpilot [07:04] helping on #ubuntu plus your work on the wiki is enough [07:04] I had a great deal when I went, but I just hadn't gotten around to it [07:05] too bad - the next DocTeam meeting is happening while I'm at work next Friday [07:05] sometimes -8 UTC bites... [07:06] man I can understand that ;-) [07:06] I am at work but I have full irc access and sit at a desk all day [07:07] Burglaptop: and the boss doesn't mind you having an IRC meeting during working hours? [07:07] the boss doesn't know [07:08] heh [07:08] dang I was thinking it was at 0800 [07:08] LaserJock: you PST as well? [07:08] Madpilot: yeah, I'm in Reno, NV [07:09] I was thinking of going for membership too [07:09] ... and the other common meeting time is 06-freakin'-00 hrs local. Bleh. [07:10] Burglaptop: if you go up a level, you see http://www.returnofdesign.com/colors/ === Belutz [n=Belutz@ubuntu/member/belutz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.36.36] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [07:16] sitevista isn't bad either [07:17] http://www.returnofdesign.com/showcolors.php?scheme=44 [07:17] yeah [07:17] Burglaptop: register that nick, ffs, so we can stop spamming -doc :) [07:17] whatever [07:18] anyway, yes, that's a pretty good colour scheme too. [07:19] I think I like it better, more gold, less yellowy [07:45] I now run the internal mediawiki install, and there are some cool options for making it look different [07:45] Burglaptop: you've installed a LAMP stack, then? [07:46] the install was already done [07:46] I am just playing with the install [07:46] by "internal mediawiki isntall" do you mean at work? [07:47] yep [07:47] OK, got you [07:47] http://sugar.userful.ca:8080/wiki/ [07:47] can't see anything, but there it is [07:48] anyway, good night [07:48] C is calling me to bed [07:48] later === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=bburger@S0106000d88b9f3db.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:35] morning [11:41] hi [11:42] morning [11:43] I was looking at the wiki - the wireless modem section is a mess - as is the dailup modem section - and I don't use either. Anyone feel like tackling them and making sense of those pages? [11:43] not me, at the moment [11:43] heh [11:44] I'll fire an email off to the list at some point [11:44] good idea [11:44] how much stuff is there in the actual help files about wireless & dailup? [11:44] not a lot i think [11:44] there is a document in our repo about dialup [11:45] but we never published it === robotgeek [n=robotgee@ppp-70-251-147-92.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:19] hi, the ubuntuguide is linked to from ubuntulinux.org? [12:24] robotgeek, where abouts? [12:25] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/link/ububtuguide [12:25] :) [12:25] thanks robotgeek nice spot [12:26] actually, i don't see it [12:26] mdke: really? [12:26] oh it has a crazy typo [12:26] i thought that was your typo :) [12:27] lemme find the page which lead to this one, lol [12:27] robotgeek, the website is being migrating shortly, we'll sort that out as it does [12:27] robotgeek, i see it [12:27] mdke: kk, just thought i'll let you know. with us in #ubuntu not recommending ubuntuguide and all, this would be bad :) [12:27] the documentation section is really out of date [12:31] mdke: well, i guess it would be sorted soon. sorry for the PM [12:31] no, you were right to point it out, thanks [12:32] alrite, later === robotgeek [n=robotgee@ppp-70-251-147-92.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.37.237] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:08] hi [01:10] lo [01:12] sup? [01:13] not a lot, just replied to your mail [01:16] heh [01:18] any update about my svn access ? [01:18] bhuvan, no, it generally takes a while. I will pester them [01:18] we can try looking at tea leaves... === jsgotangco hides [01:19] bhuvan, i think we should try and avoid using too many stylesheets and css [01:19] bhuvan, afaics we can combine aboutubuntu with quicktour, and desktopguide with serverguide, thoughts? [01:20] aboutubuntu and quicktour .. sure. provided, we can change the file names accordingly === jsgotangco still likes yelp rendering [01:20] jsgotangco, my suggestion doesn't involve moving away from yelp, it involves using yelp [01:21] bhuvan, yes === jsgotangco still likes xml in yelp [01:21] heh [01:21] why? [01:21] it is so slow! [01:21] i prefer a consistent look and feel [01:21] ah [01:21] and yelp has its own stylesheet voodoo [01:21] well our html docs should be consistent too [01:22] it won't be the same unless you explicityly use yelp's stylesheets [01:22] jsgotangco, try building the server/desktop guides and viewing the html in yelp, it is pretty good [01:22] and most importantly [01:22] a million times faster [01:22] i've seen it a few minutes ago [01:23] it just doesn't look the same as i expect it to be [01:23] jsgotangco, feel free to work on the css/xsl [01:23] i don't see the problem though, if our docs are consistent stylesheet-wise [01:23] we can even include an Ubuntu header bar [01:24] mdke, i guess, we've not used css for server guide yet [01:24] bhuvan, sure we do [01:24] matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/build/ubuntu/serverguide$ ls [01:24] C default.css [01:25] # copy style sheet to build directory [01:25] cp default.css ../build/ubuntu/serverguide/default.css [01:26] jsgotangco, oh well, something to think about [01:26] i'm off [01:28] is that what i smelled :) [01:28] cheers, mdke [01:29] hopefully the yelp patches get included in the next gnome [01:29] highvoltage, haha [01:29] mdke, i afraid, there's no make target for serverguide in generic/Makefile === jsgotangco fires up guild wars [01:30] bhuvan, no. There is no point because we don't ship a generic-docs. It's in ubuntu/Makefile, and will be in kubuntu/Makefile too [01:31] mdke, ok [01:32] i've included it in the package that will go out asap [01:36] mdke, i guess server guide stylesheet needs to be corrected.. [01:37] we do cp default.css in the Makefile, but we really dont use it in appropriate stylesheets.. [01:39] good point [01:39] if we unify the stylesheets, we will use the same css for both [01:39] anyway, gtg cya later [01:39] mdke, ok === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Kaiser@ppp192-250.lns1.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Belutz [n=Belutz@ubuntu/member/belutz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.37.237] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [03:26] jsgotangco, you there? [03:31] hi [03:31] Belutz: hiya i was just playing a game [03:32] jsgotangco, what game? the one you develop? [03:32] :D [03:32] Belutz: nope..guild wars heh [03:32] Belutz: what's up? [03:33] jsgotangco, i guess, me and my friend will do the presentation at the debconf [03:34] that's good news [03:34] :) [03:34] hmm, you are working on edubuntu cookbook? [03:36] i do [03:36] well it has been sidelined at the moment [03:36] i'll be waiting for it :) [03:37] hmm, i just have a meeting with 3 people, we are going to make the locoteams for indonesia. one of them is focusing on edubuntu === robotgeek [n=robotgee@ppp-70-251-147-92.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:38] hi, is anyone here [03:39] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo says that it breaks gui admin tools. i bit the bullet, and enabled the root user. [03:39] the gui admin tools i tried did not break. [03:40] Belutz: that's good news [03:40] jsgotangco, yes it is :) [03:40] side effect -> creates 2 users with root privileges, one is root (who cannot use the gui admin tools), and the other is a normal user who can still everything [03:40] someone from jakarta messaged me yesterday [03:41] Belutz: hi, long time no see [03:41] jsgotangco, yup, he's the one i met just now [03:41] robotgeek, hi robotgeek :) [03:42] robotgeek, tha't because i'm sick :( [03:42] anyways, i did all of that just to find out if it breaks the gui admin tools. [03:42] Belutz: that's sad, what happened [03:42] robotgeek, flu, and my waist hurts, i haven't got time to go to the doctor :( === robotgeek wanted to find out if disabling root user will restore gui-admin tool breakage [03:43] Belutz: no time...that's a rather poor excuse [03:43] robotgeek, yes it is :-) [03:44]