[07:06] <Burgundavia> bhuvan, nice work btw
[07:08] <bhuvan> Burgundavia, ok. hope you meant my recent stylesheet patch!
[07:09] <Burgundavia> bhuvan, that, but all the work you have done
[07:10] <Madpilot> the unified css is something that's been discussed bofore - nice to see someone actually just do it!
[07:10] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, I port forwarding worked
[07:10] <Burgundavia> s/I/the
[07:10] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: excellent
[08:09] <bhuvan> a novice question..
[08:09] <bhuvan> how do we set irc info to something like rob@ubuntu/member/rob1 ?
[08:09] <bhuvan> i'm using irssi
[08:15] <robitaille> bhuvan,  you have to ask; it's only for official members.  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012647.html
[08:16] <robitaille> it's an IRC hostname cloaks.
[08:47] <bhuvan> robitaille, thankx
[09:28] <os2mac> anyone around?
[09:29] <Madpilot> sort of
[09:29] <os2mac> I am trying to get some help with the wiki....
[09:29] <Madpilot> sure - what's up
[09:29] <os2mac> this is the closest place I could find...
[09:29] <Madpilot> ?
[09:30] <os2mac> I am trying to change my user prefs and the site is not allowing me to save them... saying that my passwd doesn't match... yet it's the same passwd I logged in with.
[09:30] <os2mac> the login name matches what I logged in with but the first letter is capped.... but that may be a display not a data thing...
[09:33] <Madpilot> os2mac: I've never had a problem with the user prefs, sorry. Try again in a while, and if you still can't get in, ask again here - someone else might be able to help you
[09:34] <os2mac> ok thanks.
[09:35] <rob1> umm, what the heck is this? http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
[09:41] <Madpilot> it's the other wiki, by people too cool to join the DocTeam
[09:41] <Madpilot> or something like that
[09:42] <Madpilot> running a messily-reskinned MediaWiki, from the look of it
[09:43] <rob1> yeah
[09:44] <rob1> their server hasn't got mod-rewrite by the looks either
[09:44] <Madpilot> unless they've changed something, that whole site goes down for a few hours a day, so they can use the bandwidth to play Quake 4 or something on...
[09:45] <Madpilot> not sure
[09:45] <Madpilot> perhaps after I have another beer I'll see the point...
[09:49] <Madpilot> the Recent Changes there seems to be mostly gaming-related stuff...
[09:49] <rob1> heh
[09:53] <rob1> does anyone (looking at mdke) know if the gfdl and cc-by-sa are compatible? can we take docs licenced under the gfdl (say from tldp.org) and use parts of them in our docs?
[09:56] <manicka> what do you need to know about http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
[09:57] <rob1> manicka, how come they don't spend their time and efforts towards improving the official wiki?
[09:57] <Madpilot> I think we were wondering why it exists at all, give that wiki.u.c exists already...
[09:58] <manicka> hmmmm, there was some disagreement when some forum members first started doing that
[09:58] <manicka> I don't know the full story
[09:58] <manicka> the new wiki was up and running before it was resolved
[09:59] <rob1> I tend to keep out of wiki-related business, so I only just stumbled upon that site
[09:59] <Madpilot> manicka: some forum members came in an re-wrote large sections of important parts of wiki.u.c, without talking to anyone or consulting...
[09:59] <Madpilot> *and rewrote, that should have been...
[09:59] <manicka> like i say, i don't know the full story
[10:00] <manicka> I just contribute to the new wiki because it's more relevant to the forums
[10:00] <manicka> It's not just a gamers site
[10:00] <manicka> have a good look around
[10:00] <rob1> there is a wiki team you could all be apart of, and thus vote on changes to be made to the official wiki
[10:01] <manicka> I've talked to mdke about that
[10:01] <Madpilot> if there are problems with the relevancy of wiki.u.c, fixing it sounds like a better idea than starting something different...
[10:01] <manicka> I can see that point 
[10:01] <manicka> but the forum wiki is a bit more than just a user doc site
[10:01] <rob1> I would like to see you all work together, I can tell by that site you have some good ideas to bring 
[10:02] <manicka> I'd like to contribute
[10:02] <manicka> but to be honest
[10:02] <rob1> nothing stopping you having your own gaming wiki on the site ;)
[10:02] <rob1> s/site/side
[10:03] <manicka> i didn't know where to start on the userdocs section
[10:03] <manicka> it needs lots of work
[10:03] <rob1> yeah it needs some work
[10:03] <Madpilot> UserDocs is a big page - it's always going to be a big page - but I think it's getting more usable
[10:04] <Madpilot> but away from UserDocumentation, there's lots of easier places to start working...
[10:04] <manicka> hmmm, i haven't looked at it for a while
[10:04] <manicka> I'll take you word for it
[10:04] <Madpilot> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Dominions_2_Review <-- this looks pretty cool, actually. I might have to look it up
[10:04] <manicka> the gaming section is very good
[10:05] <manicka> I don't have anything to do with it
[10:05] <manicka> ;)
[10:05] <manicka> My focus is the userdocs sections
[10:06] <manicka> I find the mediawiki code much easier to use
[10:06] <Madpilot> basically, that's the entire wiki, isn't it? (except for the dev specs and such...)
[10:06] <manicka> than the main wiki
[10:06] <rob1> the best way to get major changes done is to do a spec page on the ubuntu wiki (a page detailing what you would like) and bring it up duing a docteam meeting
[10:06] <rob1> s/duing/during
[10:07] <manicka> hmmm, food for thought
[10:07] <rob1> thats the basic process
[10:08] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
[10:08] <manicka> Madpilot: you also mentioned that the site goes down for a few hours each day
[10:09] <manicka> that generally doesn't happen any more
[10:11] <Madpilot> OK - old info - but "generally doesn't happen" isn't the same as "our information is always available to people who need it"...
[10:12] <rob1> ubuntu does have the money however to insure that
[10:12] <manicka> you mentioned a wiki team -  which one would that be
[10:13] <rob1> ubuntu has a wiki team which is a sub-team of the doc team
[10:13] <Madpilot> basically, DocTeam = WikiTeam, more or less
[10:14] <rob1> instead of working on xml documents, they just focus on the wiki
[10:14] <Madpilot> ... because XML makes my brain hurt... :P
[10:14] <manicka> so what process would one go through to join that team
[10:14] <manicka> ouch
[10:14] <rob1> just start working on the wiki, doing minor maintainance, adding docs etc
[10:15] <Madpilot> join the mailing list
[10:15] <rob1> yes, and also come to a docteam meeting every once in a while
[10:15] <manicka> hmmm, I'll give it some thought
[10:16] <manicka> I'm comfortable where I am at the moment
[10:16] <rob1> sure, no rush
[10:16] <manicka> don't need lots of hassles
[10:16] <manicka> over loyalties etc
[10:17] <rob1> yeah, maybe you guys as a whole might look at combining your efforts one day when you are ready
[10:17] <manicka> it would be a lot of work
[10:17] <rob1> I think the wiki would rock if that happen
[10:17] <manicka> the new wiki is growing rapidly
[10:17] <manicka> and getting lots of hits each day
[10:17] <rob1> there will be much overlap
[10:18] <Madpilot> manicka: mailing list info here, if you just want to join and lurk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[10:18] <rob1> however taking the best bits of both and combining it would be the ultimate aim
[10:18] <manicka> I've lurked there before ;)
[10:19] <manicka> combining would be the biggest headache
[10:19] <manicka> with the different wiki formats
[10:19] <Madpilot> yeah
[10:19] <rob1> I think the debian wiki and the unofficial debian wiki just went through something like that recently
[10:19] <Madpilot> I've done Wikipedia stuff; MediaWiki is just different enough from MoinMoin to make it really annoying in both ;)
[10:20] <manicka> yes, just different enough
[10:20] <rob1> unless you want to do something tricky moinmoin is pretty simple
[10:20] <rob1> even then..
[10:20] <manicka> agreed, that not the problem
[10:20] <manicka> it's the conversion that would be the hassle
[10:21] <manicka> a question
[10:21] <Madpilot> wonder if there's a media2moin app out there?
[10:22] <manicka> If i wanted to add something to the moin wiki
[10:22] <rob1> yes
[10:22] <rob1> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MediaWikiConverter
[10:22] <manicka> that was authored by someone else on the forum
[10:23] <manicka> what is the expectation on the main wiki
[10:23] <manicka> when that situation arises
[10:23] <rob1> well the docteam would have to decide how to proceed duing a meeting
[10:24] <rob1> a spec page would help detailing what should be done and how to do it
[10:24] <Madpilot> I've converted a couple of forum howtos into wiki.u.c pages - I just asked in the forum, got the OK, and then posted the link back into the forum thread
[10:25] <Madpilot> the OperaBrowser page started that way, and it's become much better than I could have made it on my own
[10:25] <manicka> I would suggest that it needs to be discussed
[10:25] <rob1> manicka, exactly
[10:25] <manicka> at the moment adding threads to the other wiki is easy
[10:26] <manicka> we just have a kist of threads to convert and do it
[10:26] <Madpilot> a kist? huh?
[10:26] <Madpilot> list?
[10:26] <manicka> with proper acknowledgment of the original author
[10:26] <manicka> list?
[10:27] <Madpilot> if you've got the OK of the original author, it would be just as easy to add the page to w.u.c...
[10:27] <manicka> I usually notify the author through the forum thread as well
[10:27] <rob1> whist it was the subject of much debate, the ubuntu wiki uses gfdl/ccbysa like all our docs
[10:28] <rob1> of cause, unless the other wiki does too then the originial authors will need to be contacted, depending on the licence on the other wiki
[10:29] <rob1> hmm.. I sat down with the intent on doing some work on the ubuntu desktop guide, but the pancakes will be ready shortly..
[10:29] <manicka> enjoy!
[10:32] <manicka> bbl
[10:32] <rob1> bye
[10:33] <Madpilot> later
[12:09] <mdke> rob1, from memory, I don't believe you can copy material licensed under gdfl and relicense it under our join licence system, unless you get their permission, but I might be wrong
[04:25] <ssam> hello. i do a fair amount of helping out on the forums and have been think a frequently encountered problems page would be useful to point new users at.
[04:26] <ssam> i though i'd better have a look around to avoid duplicating and found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec
[04:28] <ssam> could i have a go at doing this? it seems that it is wanted in docbook rather than wiki, which i have not done before, but i could learn
[04:29] <jjesse> ssam: i don't know where Burgundavia is currently at this, but it could be started in the wiki, and then moved to docbook if you aren't comfortable w/ Docbook yet
[04:31] <ssam> if docbook is the prefered format then i'll give it a go.
[04:31] <ssam> i am happy at writing css formated html, so i imagine its not too different
[04:33] <jjesse> ssam: ok, might wnat to contact Burgundavia to see where he is on this, don't know if there has been much work done
[04:33] <ssam> ok, thank you
[06:07] <Burgwork> ssam, you still there?
[06:10] <mdke> that common problems thing is kinda dealt with in the Desktop Guide, or at least, should be dealt with
[06:11] <Burgwork> yep
[06:11] <Burgwork> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/5099
[06:11] <Burgwork> baffled ^
[06:12] <mdke> that is one hell of a bug report
[06:27] <ssam> burgwork, hello
[06:29] <mdke> ssam, I think that he was going to say that the material in that spec should be incorporated within the Desktop Guide
[06:29] <ssam> looks like the DISPLAY variable is not set in that bug report
[06:31] <ssam> mdke, ok, i feel that its the lay out thats the important bit. that if you have a specific problem and dont know the terminology then you can find an answer
[06:32] <ssam> mdke, i dont mind where it is
[06:32] <mdke> ssam, yeah I agree. in fact the desktopguide has some structural/organisational problems right now IMHO
[06:34] <ssam> mdke,yes, a quick look in the forum or #ubuntu will tell you that people aren't find how to fix common problems,
[06:34] <mdke> ssam, well, that is not only due to problems with documentation, it is also due to problems with people
[06:34] <mdke> lots of people don't like reading docs, even for a few minutes
[06:34] <mdke> but yes, I agree that more should be done to make it easy
[06:34] <ssam> mdke, true
[06:35] <mdke> ssam, sometimes the human touch is nice :)
[06:35] <ssam> thats why your on the docteam :-)
[06:36] <mdke> heh
[06:38] <ssam> also in some circumstances people may not be able to get to the forum/irc if for example their network connection is broken. if there are good troubleshooting docs on the computer that could save them
[06:38] <mdke> absolutely
[07:07] <jjesse> its the same problem on #kubuntu that you are seeing on #ubuntu
[07:07] <jjesse> people ask the same questions, but don't bother to search
[07:09] <LaserJock> I finally heard back from Unfgiven (the original packaging guide guy)
[07:12] <LaserJock> He has his own svn repo for it and says he would rather us OpenOffice but I am trying to get him to use the docteam repo instead
[07:14] <jjesse> OpenOffice doesn't do docbook well does it?
[07:15] <LaserJock> that's my problem, you can export to .xml but I spent quite some time cleaning it up already
[07:15] <LaserJock> I certainly don't want to have to do that every time he add's something
[07:53] <mdke> LaserJock, definitely try and convince him :)
[07:54] <LaserJock> mdke: I think I will, his biggest complaint was that he couldn't get Docbook to look nice in .pdf
[07:54] <mdke> really?
[07:56] <LaserJock> He doesn't know docbook and he has styles set up for OpenOffice.
[07:58] <LaserJock> I said that the advantage to using the doc-team repo is that we have access to the style work that the doc-team has already done
[07:58] <mdke> plus we can serve it on the documentation website and include it in the distribution
[07:59] <LaserJock> mdke: another point I brought up ;-)
[07:59] <LaserJock> I think he will be ok with it, I think he just had some concerns since he was new to docbook
[07:59] <LaserJock> I am too so I think it should be ok. If I can do it, anybody can ;-)
[07:59] <mdke> yeah, understandable, but now that you've done the hard work, it should be quite easy for him
[08:00] <LaserJock> mdke: btw, are you going to be at the next CC meeting?
[08:00] <Burgwork> LaserJock, the motu people want the packaging guide in our repos
[08:01] <mdke> LaserJock, sure, if you want
[08:01] <Burgwork> LaserJock, do you need  someone to champion you at the CC meeting?
[08:01] <mdke> i'm happy to do that
[08:01] <mdke> your work has been excellent
[08:01] <LaserJock> yes, I am trying to drum up support
[08:02] <LaserJock> I got at least crimsun from the MOTU to vouch for me but I would like to get a doc-team person as well
[08:02] <Burgwork> hmm, it starts at 6am my time
[08:02] <mdke> what time is it?
[08:02] <mdke> (utc)
[08:02] <LaserJock> Burgwork: me too
[08:02] <LaserJock> 14:00
[08:02] <mdke> ah shit
[08:03] <mdke> i most likely won't be there, but I'll do what I usually do and leave a report with Kamion or something
[08:03] <mdke> brb
[08:03] <LaserJock> I probably could do the next CC meeting if it is hard for people to make but I would like to get svn commit access to work on the packaging guide
[08:06] <mdke> yeah, do it asap
[08:07] <jjesse> you just have to be a member right?
[08:07] <jjesse> i can help vouch for you LaserJock
[08:08] <LaserJock> jjesse: thanks
[08:09] <LaserJock> I think that I will be ok, I have been trying to keep up on my wiki page but I just wanted some people there. I think that that is the most important thing
[08:09] <ssam> Burgwork, did you get my email regarding CommonProblemsGuideSpec
[08:11] <Burgwork> ssam, yes. I am currently at work and thus am going to have to respond to it later
[08:11] <ssam> Burgwork, ok, thanks
[08:17] <mdke> ssam, you can join the mailing list too!
[08:27] <ssam> i am joined (though i dont read it that much)
[08:28] <mdke> ah :D
[09:52] <LaserJock> so is plan that everything in the svn repo is going to be packaged and distributed in dapper?
[09:52] <LaserJock> or will some be only online?
[09:53] <mdke> LaserJock, whatever we decide
[09:53] <mdke> brb
[10:22] <thoreauputic> jjesse: heh I saw your post on wftl-lug :) 
[10:22] <jjesse> thoreauputic: grin didn't mean to call you out on it :)
[10:22] <thoreauputic> heheh
[10:23] <thoreauputic> well I'm not really technical and docbook etc kind of scares me to be honest - so I answer Qs in #ubuntu and #kubuntu
[10:23] <jjesse> Docbook isn't that scary i jng ust focus on trying to write the docs and let others play w/ stylesheets and stuff
[10:24] <thoreauputic> i wrote to jgotangco about this months ago - I met him at Ubuntu Downunder :0
[10:25] <thoreauputic> hmm wrong smily - s/:0/:)
[10:25] <thoreauputic> *grin*
[10:25] <jjesse> grin
[10:25] <jjesse> we are working on re doing the faq guide and also putting one together for kubuntu
[10:25] <jjesse> so that will hopefully help out, but i agree w/ you its hard to force people to read the docs
[10:25] <thoreauputic> so i gathered, yes
[10:26] <LaserJock> mdke: are you sure you want to keep the version the same in your latest changes to debian/changelog?
[10:27] <thoreauputic> jjesse:  so instead of RTFM we give them !repos and !synaptic and so on - I guess that's a bit friendlier - oh and of course !docs (but that points at the wiki)
[10:28] <LaserJock> is there a dialog box or anything that comes up when Ubuntu is first installed that says "Here are the docs:"?
[10:29] <thoreauputic> LaserJock: not that I remember
[10:29] <thoreauputic> it would be a good idea IMO
[10:29] <jjesse> not tthat i know of, but maybe the start page of firefox should have something better?
[10:29] <jjesse> i know at one time they talked about start.ubuntu.com being default home page and it wouldn't be static like about ubuntu is
[10:29] <thoreauputic> like a big red button that says "click here before you panic"
[10:29] <jjesse> an "easy" button :)
[10:29] <LaserJock> lol
[10:30] <LaserJock> at least something that says if you go to System->Help you really can find help
[10:30] <LaserJock> Ubuntu is the first time I have actually seen that have anything useful
[10:31] <thoreauputic> LaserJock: assuming you read the wisdom therein... but as they say, "when all else fails, read the instructions"
[10:32] <LaserJock> I know, I usually have just skipped past the firefox start pages and stuff like that because I know it doesn't have anything releven to me. I think Ubuntu is getting to the point where it is useful
[10:32] <thoreauputic> agreed, but people's habit is to ignore the start page , thinking it will just be marketing I guess
[10:32] <LaserJock> right
[10:33] <LaserJock> that is why something more like " Remember, when you need help go to System->Help"
[10:33] <LaserJock> is more useful
[10:33] <thoreauputic> a flashing neon sign might work ( joking)
[10:34] <LaserJock> thoreauputic: not a bad idea ;-)
[10:34] <LaserJock> I think it has to be something other than a firefox start page
[10:34] <thoreauputic> too much like windows (Are you sure you want to do <insert trivial operation> ? it might break your system!
[10:35] <mdke> LaserJock, no I'm not sure. I need to do a couple of fixes still before we upload anyhow, so I'll bump it
[10:35] <LaserJock> we should just give them a blue screen of death, they should be used to that ;-)
[10:35] <thoreauputic> striking a balance between assuming an IQ below room temperature and getting attention is a difficult thing to achieve ;)
[10:35] <mdke> a link in the firefox bookmarks to the Support section of the Ubuntu website?
[10:35] <mdke> (and making that section useful)
[10:36] <thoreauputic> mdke: not a bad idea 
[10:36] <thoreauputic> on the bookmarks panel ?
[10:36] <mdke> could do
[10:36] <mdke> it is already there in the bookmarks
[10:36] <LaserJock> I think it is better to do it outside of a browser. I use a browser to go where I want to. Not search through bookmarks to see if anything is useful
[10:36] <mdke> although the "making that section useful" hasn't been done yet
[10:36] <thoreauputic> with an icon saying " 42 - Don't Panic! "
[10:37] <mdke> LaserJock, yeah, but I dunno what more we can do. We have a help icon on the panel, and System->Help is not a lot of clicks really
[10:38] <LaserJock> but we can't throw up some kinda dialog box that says "Help actually helps, really" ?
[10:39] <thoreauputic> LaserJock: "This system will spontaneously shut down in 10 seconds if you don't read the Help "
[10:39] <thoreauputic> *g*
[10:40] <thoreauputic> sorry I'll stop now ... 
[10:40] <thoreauputic> ;)
[10:41] <LaserJock> well, I think that as long as we are consistent about saying " Try System->Help or help.ubuntu.com" instead of "WTFM and google it dumbo" I think that is about all we can do really
[10:42] <mdke> +1
[10:42] <LaserJock> s/WTFM/RTFM/
[10:43] <Madpilot> WTFM = Write The Fine Manuals - that's what we're all here for, yes? :P
[10:44] <mdke> LaserJock, so shall we upload the packaging guide too?
[10:44] <LaserJock> Madpilot: that is what I was thinking 
[10:44] <LaserJock> mdke: in the package? I'm not sure.
[10:44] <mdke> LaserJock, your call
[10:44] <mdke> we can leave it til later if you like
[10:44] <Madpilot> got to go to work - bleh - later, all
[10:45] <LaserJock> mdke: yeah maybe that is better. I guess I wouldn't hurt since you can get the debian packaging resources by .deb too
[10:45] <LaserJock> It just seems weird to me to package something like that
[10:46] <mdke> you are probably right
[10:46] <mdke> anyhow, just let me know if you want to
[10:46] <LaserJock> actually, maybe I will ask the MOTU guys and see what they think
[10:46] <mdke> sure thing
[10:56] <LaserJock> mdke: Lets go ahead and package it too. It was on its way to becoming a universe package anyway before you put it in the repo
[10:56] <mdke> ok then
[10:58] <mdke> LaserJock, would you like to write me a quick couple of line description of the document?
[11:00] <LaserJock> mdke: hmm, I guess. Give me a minute.
[11:02] <thoreauputic> haha
[11:03] <thoreauputic> I just declared ducks non-free in #ubuntu-offtopic ;)
[11:06] <LaserJock> mdke: How's this?
[11:06] <LaserJock> The Ubuntu Packaging Guide is an introduction to packaging programs for Ubuntu and other Debian based distributions. It is primarily designed for people with little or no packaging experience who would like to contribute to Ubuntu or distribute their packages. Topics include: tools required before packaging, how to use a chroot or pbuilder environment, different packaging scenarios, and tips & tricks on how to be more efficient.
[11:06] <LaserJock> Is that too long?
[11:25] <Burgwork> LaserJock, a litte
[11:25] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you need 3 things
[11:25] <Burgwork> IHMO
[11:25] <Burgwork> a title
[11:25] <Burgwork> a one sentence description
[11:25] <Burgwork> and then a longer desctiption
[11:26] <LaserJock> right
[11:26] <Burgwork> that is just my idea, ignore at your leisure
[11:26] <LaserJock> well, when packaging that is what you need
[11:30] <LaserJock> Burgwork: is it ok to take the first sentence for the short description or is that too redundant do you think?
[11:33] <Burgwork> hmm
[11:33] <Burgwork> nope, it works for me
[11:34] <Burgwork> oh wait
[11:34] <Burgwork> I mean that Yes, the first sentence works for the short desc.
[11:34] <LaserJock> ok