[12:05] <fabbione> should work fine for me
[12:05] <fabbione> it's nothing extremely urgent.. so if we can't make it, tough, we can always reschedule it
[12:06] <fabbione> good night Kamion :)
[12:06] <Kamion> sure, night :)
[08:02] <fabbione> bah
[08:03] <fabbione> it looks like that libselinux in lvm2-udeb is not lvm2 fault
[08:03] <fabbione> there is something wrong with the build environment
[08:32] <infinity> Well, it has -boot in the name.
[08:32] <fabbione> yeah but here there are only a bunch of bastards
[08:32] <fabbione> :)
[08:33] <sivang> hehe
[08:33] <sivang> well, it's probably specially created for speeding up the boot process?
[08:33] <sivang> err,
[08:33] <sivang> thqat is for discussing that stuff
[08:46] <fabbione> Kamion: ok the problem is way more complicated than it did look in the beginning
[08:46] <fabbione> lvm2-udeb manages to link to libselinux via libdevmapper
[08:46] <fabbione> even if --disable-selinux is forced
[08:46] <fabbione> so libselinux is pulled in indirectly
[08:47] <fabbione> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=315505 <-
[08:47] <fabbione> but they didn't realize that device mapper will still break the world
[09:57] <fabbione> Kamion: ok.. i got lvm2 back to normal.. just waiting for the packages/dep-wait & co to propagate
[10:06] <Kamion> sivang: #debian-boot's name is historical, from boot-floppies; it should really be #debian-installer now, but we can't be bothered to move
[10:07] <sivang> Kamion: ofcourse :)
[10:07] <Kamion> we created this channel primarily to coordinate the move to 2.6.15 and the new udev and co. for dapper; no doubt it will be used for other related things
[10:11] <infinity> (on unrelated ones)
[10:13] <infinity> Side note: The only thing worse than not being able to make something work for hours on end is MAKING IT WORK, BUT NOT BEING SURE HOW.
[10:13] <infinity> I think  Ineed a brain-break.
[10:17] <Mithrandir> s/break/&s/
[10:37] <sivang> infinity: indeed.
[11:10] <fabbione> yeah
[11:10] <fabbione> good new steps forward
[11:11] <fabbione> Kamion: pal is still broken on ppc :).. but at least it seems that manual LVM works.. so that makes my life still very simple. I think i am hitting a very stupid problem but i will work on it after the dentist
[11:49] <Mithrandir> so, I suck.  This won't work, since cdrom-checker complains about not finding the cdrom device.
[11:51] <Kamion> oh yeah, you'll need to make cdrom-detect run first
[11:53] <Kamion>    * Make ext2=m on all arch's.
[11:53] <Kamion> oh great, more d-i changes ...
[11:54] <Mithrandir> hmm, should I add a hack to cdrom-chooser for that, or should I wrap it in a small shell script which just does udpkg --configure cdrom-detect ; udpkg --configure cdrom-checker?
[11:56] <Kamion> cdrom-chooser depends on cdrom-detect ...
[11:56] <Kamion> so perhaps if your menu hook is udpkg --configure cdrom-checker rather than running /var/lib/dpkg/info/cdrom-checker.postinst directly, it'll work?
[11:56] <Kamion> s/chooser/checker/ above
[11:57] <Mithrandir> I'll try.
[11:58] <Kamion> (can't remember if udpkg --configure follows dependencies)
[11:58] <Mithrandir> it does, iirc
[11:59] <Kamion> hm, doesn't seem to
[12:00] <Kamion> maybe udpkg --configure cdrom-checker cdrom-detect
[12:00] <Kamion> er, other way round
[12:01] <Mithrandir> if DODEPENDS is #defined, it should
[12:04] <Mithrandir> which is not default
[12:04] <Mithrandir>         ./configure --without-depends --without-debug \
[12:04] <Mithrandir>                 --without-remove --with-admindir=/var/lib/dpkg
[12:04] <Kamion> only for --install
[12:04] <Kamion> not --configure
[12:04] <Kamion> (in the current code)
[12:05] <Mithrandir> yeah, and it's compiled out anyway, so..
[12:07] <Mithrandir> "export: 5: --configre: bad variable name"
[12:07] <Mithrandir> configure, even
[12:08] <Kamion> quoting?
[12:08] <Mithrandir> yeah, in rootskel
[12:08] <Mithrandir> I'm sure joeyh is going to love me for first breaking rootskel, then uploading it twice in a day.
[12:09] <Mithrandir> oh, boot faster, xoog
[12:20] <Mithrandir> heh, debconf complains about --configure.  I think I'll just write a tiny wrapper in cdrom-checker instead.
[12:36] <Kamion> ok
[01:17] <Mithrandir> gnnr, I just get a black screen with a single grey line on it.
[01:18] <Mithrandir> hw-detect seems to be hanging.
[01:23] <Mithrandir> Kamion: any great ideas?  Running it by hand works, but well, is kinda wrong.
[01:42] <Kamion> I'd boot with BOOT_DEBUG=3, use the "before init" debugshell to replace /sbin/debian-installer in /etc/inittab with /bin/sh, and then run through it step by step
[01:43] <Kamion> maybe debconf isn't connected up right
[01:44] <Mithrandir> it blows up when I run debconf -o d-i /bin/cdrom-detect-menu (which just runs udpkg --configure cdrom-checker cdrom-detect)
[01:44] <Mithrandir> even from tty2
[01:47] <Kamion> you'd want UDPKG_QUIET=y in cdrom-detect-menu at least
[01:47] <Kamion> (perhaps the witter is confusing debconf)
[01:48] <Mithrandir> yeah, I'll try that
[01:49] <Kamion> I dunno, in general I'd be trying to imitate what main-menu does
[01:50] <Kamion> hmm, you might also like to look at the setup/* scripts in kickseed; they're run using MENU
[01:50] <Kamion> export UDPKG_QUIET=y
[01:50] <Kamion> udpkg --force-configure --configure "$1" 2>&1 | logger -t kickseed
[01:50] <Kamion> that could become log-output these days, but otherwise that works in a MENU in kickseed
[01:50] <Kamion> # without this, debconf clients will talk debconf protocol to syslog
[01:50] <Kamion> . /usr/share/debconf/confmodule
[01:51] <Kamion> hah, right
[01:51] <Kamion> Mithrandir: source the confmodule at the top of cdrom-detect-menu; that's probably your problem
[01:51] <Mithrandir> doh.
[01:51] <Kamion> I knew I'd solved this problem before ;-)
[02:04] <Mithrandir> Kamion: I'll buy you a beer on Sunday.
[02:05] <Kamion> Sunday?
[02:12] <Mithrandir> you're around Cambridge, aren't you?
[02:12] <Mithrandir> Karianne and I are in London from Saturday until Wednesday, with a small detour to Cambridge on Sunday.
[02:14] <Kamion> oh, right, cool
[02:14] <Kamion> I'll check with Kirsten what we're doing on Sunday; I'd forgotten about your visit :)
[02:14] <Mithrandir> I mailed debian-uk about it last afternoon
[02:14] <Mithrandir> iirc
[02:15] <Mithrandir> no idea if it managed to traverse sauce, though
[02:16] <Kamion> 6 Tollef Fog Heen                            1  [Debian-uk]  Beer in Cambridge Sunday 2005-11-04
[02:16] <Kamion> ^-- trn on chiark
[02:16] <Mithrandir> goodie
[02:36] <Mithrandir> Kamion: hmm, main in cdrom-checker seems to include crack such as system("touch /tmp/test") system("logger init"), etc.  I'll just get rid of those if you don't mind.
[02:38] <Kamion> sure :)
[02:38] <jbailey> Anyone here bored and willing to take the grub merge from me?
[02:38] <Kamion> I suspect it was a very early udeb
[02:38] <Kamion> jbailey: I'll grab it
[02:38] <Mithrandir>  -- Martin Sjogren <sjogren@debian.org>  Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:40:06 +0100
[02:38] <Kamion> not bored as *such*, but I've merged grub before
[02:39] <jbailey> Kamion: Thanks.  My bit of distro time left is best spent finishing the glibc bits.
[02:58] <Mithrandir> so, it works, except reboots don't.
[03:09] <infinity> jbailey : Will that include the creation of libc6-dev-i386, or -ENOTIME for that?
[03:11] <jbailey> infinity: I started looking at that last night.  The next upload won't have it.  I want that to be primarily things that are really needed for the locales-in-langpacks stuff.
[03:11] <jbailey> infinity: We're aiming to have that all in for flight-2.
[03:12] <jbailey> infinity: Do you have a more urgent need for tha libc6-dev-i386 stuff?
[03:29] <infinity> Nope. I couldn't care less if it happens soon, or even by release, it's just a wart I'd like to see go away "sometime"
[04:11] <fabbione> yo
[04:11] <fabbione> ok
[04:12] <Kamion> right
[04:12] <fabbione> i am having a bunch of problems with p-a-l and i need some help/advices on how to fix them
[04:12] <fabbione> if you can get the code handy, it might help
[04:12] <Kamion> ok; note I merged partman-auto last night
[04:12] <fabbione> yes i saw that
[04:12] <Kamion> but there shouldn't have been much relevant in there
[04:13] <fabbione> i need to retest on i386 because ppc is farting on me
[04:13] <fabbione> and i can't see why
[04:13] <fabbione> but that's not the main issue for now
[04:13] <fabbione> i will figure it later on
[04:13] <fabbione> the first problem i wanted to talk with you was the way to restart parted
[04:14] <Kamion> yeah, I noticed you disabled my change there
[04:14] <fabbione> you did change the hugly code i did copy from somewhere
[04:14] <fabbione> to something like:
[04:14] <fabbione> stop_parted
[04:14] <fabbione> start_partsomething
[04:14] <fabbione> but i have issues with that
[04:14] <fabbione> but i can't understand why
[04:14] <fabbione> perhaps you can help me to shed some light on it
[04:15] <Kamion> I'm just hunting down the svn changeset
[04:15] <fabbione> if you have a test machine that you can trash
[04:15] <fabbione> sure
[04:15] <Mithrandir> Kamion: how can I get a status message from cdrom-checker through udpkg to cdrom-checker-menu?  Any ideas?
[04:15] <Kamion> no test machine handy unfortunately
[04:15] <fabbione> you can see it almost immediatly becuase you run pal
[04:15] <fabbione> and the visuals are all wrong
[04:15] <Kamion> Mithrandir: exit status, ideally ...
[04:15] <Kamion> all wrong?
[04:15] <fabbione> while using my restart code looks ok
[04:16] <fabbione> if you are familiar with LVM a bit
[04:16] <fabbione> and you have seen how partitions show up at partman? main menu
[04:16] <fabbione> you will see that with your code the partitions do not show up the same way as when you do manual LVM
[04:16] <fabbione> that's first "optical" symptom
[04:17] <fabbione> and if you ask to commit the changes, it will fail
[04:17] <fabbione> returning back to the main menu, everything looks ok again (like if parted is restarted the same way i do)
[04:17] <fabbione> and a second commit will work
[04:17] <Kamion> well, that's bizarre, because the function calls I replaced that code with contain identical code
[04:18] <fabbione> ah
[04:18] <Kamion> it's restarting in precisely the same way - the code's just in a common place now
[04:18] <fabbione> hmmmm
[04:18] <Kamion> if you can see a difference there, I'm all ears - I've got the diff in front of me and can't find anything
[04:18] <fabbione> do you remember from what pkg is coming?
[04:18] <Kamion> partman-base/definitions.sh
[04:18] <fabbione> the common code i mean
[04:19] <Kamion> hmm, unless 'exit 255' behaves differently in a function
[04:19] <fabbione> eh
[04:19] <fabbione> that could be
[04:19] <fabbione> in a function you should return
[04:19] <Kamion> seems unlikely; I'll test
[04:19] <fabbione> i can test it
[04:19] <Kamion> you can exit from a function
[04:19] <fabbione> don
[04:19] <fabbione> don't worry
[04:19] <fabbione> i am only seeking ideas
[04:20] <Kamion> ~ $ foo () { echo; exit 255; echo; }
[04:20] <Kamion> ~ $ foo
[04:20] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ echo $?
[04:20] <Kamion> 255
[04:20] <Kamion> seems to work as desired
[04:20] <fabbione> also in dash or the busybox built-in?
[04:20] <Kamion> fabbione: to be honest my first resort would be to stick 'set -x' at the top of perform_recipe_by_lvm and see what it's doing ...
[04:20] <Kamion> fabbione: that's in busybox sh
[04:20] <fabbione> yes i can stick set -x but where the hell does the output go?
[04:20] <Kamion> /var/log/syslog
[04:21] <fabbione> ok
[04:21] <fabbione> perfect
[04:21] <Kamion> it's not amazingly conveniently formatted but it should work
[04:21] <fabbione> i am ok with that
[04:21] <fabbione> given that it works :)
[04:21] <Kamion> you can probably 'exec 2>/tmp/randomfile' if you like
[04:21] <fabbione> i am happy if the out goes somewhere
[04:21] <fabbione> i can figure the formatting
[04:22] <fabbione> ok
[04:22] <fabbione> the next problem is:
[04:22] <fabbione> # check if the recipe contains lvmok tags otherwise fail
[04:22] <fabbione> if [ -z "$(echo "$scheme" | grep "lvmok")" ] ; then
[04:22] <fabbione>   XXXX: how do we bailout properly?
[04:22] <fabbione>   exit 0
[04:22] <fabbione> fi
[04:22] <fabbione> let say that we are asked to perform a recipe on arch foo
[04:22] <fabbione> where arch foo has recipes that contains no lvmok tags
[04:22] <fabbione> i need to bailout
[04:23] <fabbione> what's the proper way to do it?
[04:23] <fabbione> at that point in time i didn't write anything to the disk
[04:23] <fabbione> so it's easy
[04:23] <fabbione> no actually
[04:23] <fabbione> i already trashed the disk
[04:23] <fabbione> but i need to bailout
[04:24] <Kamion> you're supposed to do that check before trashing the disk!
[04:24] <fabbione> ok i can do that
[04:24] <fabbione> that's not an issue
[04:24] <fabbione> but i need to know how to bailout properly
[04:24] <fabbione> i don't think exit 0 is the way it's meant to be
[04:25] <Kamion> make automatically_partition/some_device_lvm/choices only print the LVM choice if it can actually do it
[04:25] <Kamion> see resize_use_free, which does that sort of thing
[04:26] <fabbione> the problem is that we don't know the recipe yet at that time
[04:26] <fabbione> do we?
[04:26] <Kamion> choices is right before do_option ...
[04:26] <fabbione> so we already have the recipe..
[04:26] <fabbione> if so ok...
[04:26] <Kamion> they're both run from ask_user, and there's no recipe selection in between
[04:26] <Kamion> no, you probably don't
[04:26] <Kamion> hmm, maybe
[04:27] <Kamion> let me hunt around
[04:27] <fabbione> ok
[04:27] <Kamion> your script chooses the recipe itself
[04:27] <Kamion> so there's no issue
[04:27] <Kamion> choose_recipe "$free_size" || exit $?
[04:28] <fabbione> that's from do_option
[04:29] <fabbione> to hide the selecion, it needs to be done from choices
[04:29] <Kamion> ah, I see what you mean, you don't want to ask questions from choices
[04:29] <Kamion> well in that case just do the lvmok check before trashing the disk
[04:30] <fabbione> yes and i am ok with doing that check...
[04:30] <Kamion> all that logic is in your do_option so you can easily move it up
[04:30] <Kamion> exit 1 should be fine to bail out
[04:30] <fabbione> ok
[04:30] <fabbione> perfect :)
[04:30] <fabbione> exit 1 is all i was searching for ;)
[04:30] <Kamion> you should probably db_input/db_go an error template of some kind first
[04:30] <fabbione> that would make sense
[04:31] <Kamion> look at perform_recipe, which does that
[04:31] <fabbione> i guess we have some kind of standard error template
[04:31] <fabbione> ok
[04:31] <fabbione> i will
[04:31] <Kamion> or in the choose_recipe function for that matter
[04:31] <fabbione> ok
[04:31] <fabbione> i can still move code up
[04:31] <Kamion> hm, no, you'll probably need a new one since the text will need translated
[04:31] <fabbione> i have no issues for that
[04:32] <fabbione> the last problem i would like to address are unclean disks
[04:32] <Kamion> my advice from bitter experience is to get new template text upstream as soon as possible, otherwise merging is HELL
[04:32] <fabbione> ok. i want to finish pal no later than this week
[04:32] <fabbione> modulo bugs
[04:32] <fabbione> because i have other tons of stuff to do as well
[04:33] <Kamion> sure
[04:33] <fabbione> so let say you install breezy/dapper or whatever on lvm
[04:33] <fabbione> you decide to reinstall dapper on it using pal
[04:33] <fabbione> there is a big problem with LVM that finds the old install
[04:33] <fabbione> pal in that case is dumb
[04:33] <fabbione> it doesn't fail
[04:33] <fabbione> it doesn't clean
[04:34] <fabbione> the result can be a mess
[04:34] <fabbione> so i was wondering what kind of approach i should use to that
[04:34] <fabbione> like:
[04:34] <fabbione> - send big fat warning to dd the disk before attempting
[04:34] <fabbione> - try to cleanup automatically
[04:34] <fabbione> - do it and hpe evertyhing will work right afterwards
[04:34] <Kamion> my advice would be to just not offer it
[04:35] <fabbione> ok
[04:35] <Kamion> well, I guess you do want to be able to wipe the disk
[04:35] <fabbione> well the point is exactly that one
[04:35] <fabbione> there is no clean way to wipe a disk that had LVM other dd or a bunch of lvm commands that might fail
[04:36] <Kamion> really? what goes wrong?
[04:36] <Kamion> you do a NEW_LABEL ...
[04:36] <fabbione> the LVM metadata are all around the disk
[04:36] <fabbione> lvm doesn't care about the LABEL data
[04:36] <fabbione> i did try that.. trust me
[04:36] <fabbione> hitted my head on it for 4 hours
[04:36] <Kamion> is there a command to wipe that? I thought there was
[04:36] <Kamion> I remember we discussed this before and found one
[04:37] <fabbione> you need to do a set of commands
[04:37] <fabbione> lvremove -> vgremove -> pvremove
[04:37] <fabbione> then you can add the new LABEL
[04:37] <fabbione> that was for the RAID
[04:37] <Kamion> ah
[04:37] <fabbione> not for lvm
[04:37] <fabbione> RAID has metadata in one place only for each disk
[04:37] <fabbione> lvm is all around the disk
[04:37] <fabbione> sort of inodes
[04:38] <Kamion> surely it won't look through the whole disk if it doesn't find its superblock-equivalent though
[04:38] <fabbione> of course not
[04:38] <Kamion> so dd over that :)
[04:38] <fabbione> dd means dd the entire disk
[04:38] <fabbione> you don't know where the inodes are
[04:38] <fabbione> not all of them at least
[04:38] <fabbione> but yeah.... dd would be the best :)
[04:39] <Kamion> can we use pvremove --force?
[04:39] <Kamion> sorry, -ff
[04:39] <Kamion>         /* we must have -ff to overwrite a non orphan */
[04:39] <fabbione> that will kill the metadata for the partition
[04:40] <Kamion> or indeed -ffy - should be a big enough hammer
[04:40] <fabbione> i can try that.. yes
[04:40] <fabbione> i mean i can test it easily
[04:40] <Kamion> right, so if we do that for each partition, then NEW_LABEL, then autopartition, that should probably work
[04:40] <fabbione> given i need to cleanup my disk each time i try pal
[04:40] <fabbione> that should be sufficient i assume
[04:40] <Kamion> yeah, I think s
[04:40] <Kamion> so
[04:41] <fabbione> ok
[04:41] <fabbione> i guess i will start with these stuff
[04:41] <Kamion> do we already have a big "you are about to WIPE your DISK!" warning?
[04:41] <fabbione> hmmmmm
[04:41] <fabbione> i don't think so
[04:41] <fabbione> probably partman-auto does
[04:41] <fabbione> i don't
[04:42] <Kamion> ah, you do, but only on sun disklabels because they need to be committed
[04:42] <fabbione> "it sucks to be you if you choose LVM and it didn't work"
[04:42] <Kamion> I think you should probably just remove the two label_type = sun conditionals
[04:42] <fabbione> that's code i did copy from autopartitioning i think
[04:42] <fabbione> or from somewhere inside partman-auto
[04:42] <fabbione> why should i?
[04:42] <Kamion> right, but you're now becoming a different case because you're doing non-undoable stuff to the disk
[04:42] <Kamion> autopartition is only doing stuff that partman can unwind
[04:43] <fabbione> right
[04:43] <Kamion> up until you actually accept the changes
[04:43] <fabbione> true
[04:43] <Kamion> ideally p-a-l would be the same, but that sounds non-trivial
[04:43] <fabbione> you can't really...
[04:43] <Kamion> well, actually, where does stuff go wrong? at the autopartition stage, or later?
[04:43] <fabbione> it depends...
[04:43] <fabbione> as it is now it works
[04:43] <Kamion> if it only goes wrong later, then you could do the pvremove -ffy in a commit.d script
[04:44] <Kamion> and then you can preserve the ability to undo changes, which is really nice to have
[04:44] <fabbione> yeah but you won't be able to unwind the main partitions
[04:44] <Kamion> why not?
[04:44] <Kamion> do you actually write them to disk in autopartition?
[04:44] <fabbione> because you need to COMMIT to access the partition that will be lvm
[04:44] <Kamion> oh, ok
[04:44] <fabbione> if you see also manual LVM, it does exactly the same
[04:44] <fabbione> it asks you to commit before accessing the LVM menu
[04:44] <fabbione> and it makes sense
[04:44] <Kamion> right, just pvremove -ffy up front then, and display the warnings unconditionally
[04:45] <fabbione> yeps
[04:45] <fabbione> if it fails.. well sucks to be you
[04:45] <fabbione> buty
[04:45] <Kamion> better partman/LVM integration would involve having a representation of LVM partitions in /var/lib/partman/devices/, so that you wouldn't need to commit beforehand
[04:45] <fabbione> yeah that's true
[04:45] <fabbione> but there are also other problems
[04:45] <fabbione> like roundings
[04:46] <fabbione> all sizes will be highly incorrect
[04:46] <fabbione> but well.. minor details
[04:46] <Kamion> mm
[04:46] <fabbione> (sorry i need to wake up my wife)
[04:47] <fabbione> re
[04:48] <fabbione> ok i think for now i am all set
[04:48] <fabbione> at least...
[04:48] <fabbione> i think i am :)
[04:48] <fabbione> thanks a lot Kamion
[04:48] <fabbione> it's really nice to work with you
[04:50] <Kamion> hope it all works :)
[04:50] <fabbione> oh don't worry
[04:50] <fabbione> i will come back if it doesnt :P
[04:50] <Kamion> heh
[04:50] <fabbione> right now i want to get the code to be in a decent state and work
[04:51] <fabbione> the next cleanup step will be merging and removing all the duplicate with partman-auto
[04:51] <fabbione> because there is really a tons
[04:51] <fabbione> that doesn't need to be there
[04:51] <fabbione> but for now it's easier for me so that i can fork and merge as i need without disrupting all of partman-auto
[04:53] <Kamion> have you got upstream commit access yet? you probably should
[04:53] <Kamion> ask joeyh
[04:56] <infinity> Kamion : Will d-i be using the same udev firmware-loading mechanism as the base system?  (ie: should I be installing udeb firmware to the same filesystem location?)
[05:00] <Kamion> infinity: yeah, more or less the same mechanism anyway
[05:00] <fabbione> Kamion: no i don't and i would like not to. I will push the patches as they come
[05:00] <fabbione> i am keeping the interdiffs
[05:07] <fabbione> pvremove -ffy seems to do the trick :)
[05:28] <Kamion> cool!
[11:26] <Mithrandir> it's so weird coming back into #debian-boot.  Nothing has changed, kinda, except I'm not part of the crowd yet/any more.. I guess it'll work itself out over a few days or weeks.
[11:56] <Kamion> Mithrandir: mostly the effect of trying to get used to the now-rather-enormous codebase again?
[11:57] <Kamion> I do love design discussions like that one just now with joeyh though ... makes me feel like d-i is a real project ;-)
[11:57] <Kamion> (real as in big commercial blah)
[11:57] <Mithrandir> Kamion: nah, more the "I'm not sure whose feet I tread on when doing random crap"
[11:58] <Kamion> Mithrandir: http://people.debian.org/~fjp/d-i/authors.html might help
[11:59] <Mithrandir> has tausq or tbm done anything to d-i lately?
[11:59] <Mithrandir> or Marvin?
[12:00] <Mithrandir> (not accusing, more "are they still around?"
[12:00] <Mithrandir> )
[12:00] <Kamion> tausq hasn't, tbm has done various bits and pieces
[12:00] <Kamion> don't think sjogren has been around much at all
[12:01] <Mithrandir> he was around _a lot_ in the early phases
[12:01] <Kamion> yeah
[12:01] <Kamion> tsauter's mostly vanished too
[12:02] <Mithrandir> shame that. :-/