[12:05] <LaserJock> mdke: well it works fine in dapper
[12:05] <Burgwork> LaserJock, ubuntu docs are not really a target for backporting, so I wouldn't worry abut it
[12:06] <LaserJock> Burgwork: np, I was just booted into breezy and wanted to see the new stuff
[12:17] <Burgwork> LaserJock, true
[12:24] <Burgwork> mdke_, do you have connection issues or are you at home now?
[12:31] <mdke_> Burgwork, both
[12:31] <Burgwork> ah
[12:31] <Burgwork> I am tired and bored of work right now
[12:31] <mdke_> i always irc from my home server, so the connection is a bit dodgy
[12:32] <mdke_> my wifi keeps going down so I reboot the router and it cuts the connection
[12:32] <Burgwork> I am glad I live in a country with great bandwidth
[12:32] <mdke_> heh
[12:32] <mdke_> me too, but I need to take advantage by paying for some
[12:32] <mdke_> it's the damn router that is the main problem though
[12:32] <Burgwork> even the neighbours stolen bandwidth is good
[12:33] <mdke_> heh
[12:33] <mdke_> all my neighbours have closed APs
[12:33] <Burgwork> my neighbours aren't so smart
[12:34] <mdke_> :)
[12:36] <Burgwork> mediawiki 1.6 is going to get a WYSIWYG editor
[12:43] <mdke> moin 1.6 will be able to turn water into wine
[12:44] <mdke> actually that's a bit blasphemous
[12:44] <mdke> moin 1.6 will be able to turn lead into gold
[12:44] <Burgwork> right
[12:44] <Burgwork> moin is wonderful is some cases and mediawiki in others
[12:44] <mdke> nah, nah
[12:44] <mdke> that's far too conciliatory
[12:44] <Burgwork> developers need moin, we need mediawiki
[12:44] <Burgwork> becuase they target different audiences and make different assumptions
[12:44] <mdke> moin is good stuff
[12:45] <Burgwork> for developers
[12:45] <mdke> i'm not a developer
[12:45] <Burgwork> exactly
[12:45] <mdke> and I like moin
[12:46] <Burgwork> moin makes the assumption that those editing the wiki have another method of communicatin
[12:46] <Burgwork> an assumption which turns out to be wrong when you are dealing with documentation in Ubuntu
[12:46] <Burgwork> but perfectly correct for the developers of Ubuntu
[12:54] <Burgwork> mdke, would you not agree?
[12:54] <mdke> i don't think so
[12:55] <mdke> Burgwork, what do you mean by "another method of communication"
[12:55] <Burgwork> the talk pages the mediawiki has by default
[12:55] <Burgwork> and the functionality built around them
[12:55] <Burgwork> and yes moin can do *some* of that
[12:55] <mdke> I don't know mediawiki, but how does talk pages help for dealing with documentation
[12:56] <Burgwork> there is a cool thing where you can allow anonymous editing on talk pages but lock the actual article itself
[12:56] <mdke> ah right
[12:56] <mdke> seems sensible
[12:57] <Burgwork> as well as when you post a note to a users talk page on mediawiki, it tells them about it
[12:57] <mdke> seems sensible too
[12:57] <Burgwork> moin could have those things, but doesn't
[12:57] <Burgwork> moin also makes the assumption that content is more important than presentation
[12:58] <Burgwork> mediawiki assumes they are equal
[12:58] <Burgwork> again, an assumptoin that works for developers but not for documentation
[12:59] <Burgwork> a small example of this is the table of contents
[12:59] <Burgwork> needs to be manually created on moin but not on mediawiki
[01:00] <mdke> these are all bugs in moin IMHO
[01:00] <Burgwork> yes, but when will they be fixed?
[01:00] <mdke> when someone reports them
[01:00] <mdke> you've done that I suppose
[01:00] <mdke> so, dunno
[01:03] <Burgwork> mediawiki is not perfect either
[01:03] <Burgwork> we really need a method of publishing the docs
[01:03] <Burgwork> ie, two sites
[01:04] <Burgwork> a wiki on doc.u.c that is editable by all
[01:04] <mdke> mm?
[01:04] <mdke> ah
[01:04] <Burgwork> and then the finished stuff on help.u.c that is editable by only us
[01:04] <mdke> i've talked this over with henrik quite a bit
[01:04] <Burgwork> but has a talk page that can be edited by anybody
[01:05] <mdke> he would like that option, but I don't like it much, i'd prefer a wiki on help.u.c editable by all, and stable docs being restricted
[01:05] <Burgwork> but help is where we drive end users
[01:05] <Burgwork> we cannot have every joe blow editing them
[01:05] <Burgwork> by the time a doc hits help.u.c it should be mostly feature complete
[01:05] <mdke> i would have help.u.c with reliable docs
[01:06] <mdke> and help.u.c/wiki with community maintained docs
[01:06] <Burgwork> ugh
[01:06] <Burgwork> that is too confusing  to the end user, IMHO
[01:06] <Burgwork> and  their should be no seperation between our docs and "community" docs
[01:07] <Burgwork> s/their/there
[01:07] <Burgwork> there should only be drafting docs and published docs
[01:07] <mdke> well then you'll need to abolish the docteam repository
[01:07] <mdke> and work only in wiki form
[01:07] <Burgwork> not really
[01:08] <Burgwork> but this seperation between online docs and web docs needs to end, in some form
[01:08] <Burgwork> make that offline docs
[01:09] <mdke> well you'll have to abolish the distinction between online and offline then I guess
[01:10] <Burgwork> somewhat
[01:12] <mdke> abolish the internet!
[01:14] <mdke> Burgwork, I've uploaded a couple of drawings that me and henrik did when trying to figure out how to implement BetterWikiDocs, you can save them from that wiki page and open the with openoffice
[01:15] <Burgwork> ok
[01:15] <mdke> feel free to do one yourself
[01:15] <mdke> ok, --> sleep
[02:06] <mr4005> Hullo?
[02:06] <LaserJock> Hi
[02:08] <mr4005> Setting myself up with the needed software to contribute.  The getting started page says get docbook and subversion.  There are a lot of docbook pakages shown in aptitude.  Which are needed/relevant?  Which should be ignored?
[02:08] <mr4005> Subversion was easier, the choices are smaller and more decipherable.
[02:09] <LaserJock> mr4005: I think xsltproc, docbook-xsl, and docbook-defguide are good to start with
[02:10] <LaserJock> mr4005: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook is where I got that info at. I think that is all I have for docbook stuff
[02:10] <mr4005> Ah!  xsltproc was not found while searching for docbook.  
[02:11] <mr4005> << off to read that page more closely
[02:11] <mr4005> Thanks, LaserJock
[02:12] <LaserJock> xsltproc is cool because it allows you to turn your Docbook xml into html 
[02:19] <mr4005> or docbooks into html pages
[02:20] <Burgwork> night
[06:39] <Madpilot> hi rob1
[06:39] <rob1> hi Madpilot 
[06:40] <Madpilot> have you seen my email about CD burning in the Desktop Guide?
[06:40] <rob1> no not yet, evolution is playing funny buggers
[06:44] <Madpilot> if I'm finding typos and errors in the desktop guide html, should I just start editing, crank out diffs, and send them to the list?
[06:56] <rob1> the html is automatically generated from the xml, but as for the copy on help.u.c go feel free to edit
[06:57] <Madpilot> yeah, just realized the html isn't actually in the svn - I'll start plugging away at the xml. 
[07:07] <Madpilot> OK, I'm confused... what I've got in my svn d/l bears no resemblance to the filenames in use on doc.u.c...
[07:07] <rob1> thats because it isn't the same
[07:07] <Madpilot> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch02s03.html <-- where is this file, in the xml versions from svn?
[07:07] <rob1> no that was generated using xsltproc from the xml
[07:08] <rob1> everything under /build is generated when you run the makefile
[07:08] <rob1> (depending on what you want to build)
[07:09] <Madpilot> ... I think I need to go read some of the DocTeam "how we do things" stuff again, before I look even more clueless :P
[07:09] <rob1> in xml the desktopguide.xml file in that directory is the main file, which only contains xreferences to the other xml files
[07:10] <Madpilot> right
[07:10] <rob1> xml file layout != generated html layout
[07:10] <Madpilot> rob1: that's why XML makes my head hurt...
[07:10] <rob1> xml has stylesheets that determine how to break things up
[07:11] <Madpilot> ah, that Gnomebaker stuff is in common-tasks.xml
[07:11] <rob1> yep
[07:14] <Madpilot> gah... I know we've got good reason to use XML, but (X)HTML is just so much **easier**
[07:14] <rob1> nah, one you get used to xml its just as easy
[07:14] <rob1> it just has a lot more features that you can use
[07:14] <rob1> when I say xml, I mean docbook xml
[09:09] <mdke_> ah, Madpilot, awesome news that you're starting to get into the docs
[09:10] <mdke_> rob1, you didn't reply to my 10 thousand emails yesterday :(
[09:10] <Madpilot> mdke_: right now I'm mostly staring at XML and wondering when my eyes will start bleeding ;)
[09:11] <mdke_> Madpilot, aw it's not as bad as all that!
[09:11] <Madpilot> not quite
[09:11] <Madpilot> close, though
[09:11] <mdke_> you'll get used to it :)
[09:12] <Madpilot> expect my first few diffs to be total crap :P
[09:12] <Madpilot> code-wise, that is
[09:13] <mdke_> Madpilot, the important thing is to use the validation tool in our repo
[09:13] <mdke_> that way you can check that the doc is ok before doing the diff
[09:13] <mdke_> Madpilot, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
[09:14] <Madpilot> k, thanks - I'll read that tomorrow - I'm just about to crash for the night
[09:14] <mdke_> rob1, so what do I do with my working copy of common-tasks.xml
[09:14] <mdke_> nuke, or commit?
[09:42] <jsgotangco> hey guys
[11:06] <HrdwrBoB> 21:05 < raphink> I upgraded my dapper and now it doesn't recognize my sound card anymore :S
[11:06] <HrdwrBoB> er
[11:06] <HrdwrBoB> ... whoops
[03:46] <mhz> hi all
[03:47] <mhz> I see this http://wiki.edubuntu.org/CorporateUbuntu
[03:47] <mhz> and the first line  mention 'corporate environment by Naaman Campbell.'
[03:48] <mhz> just to have a clear policy in my head... do we want this 'by author' things?
[03:49] <mdke_> no we don't. But we have not yet established the licence policy on the wiki
[03:49] <mhz> so, i dont edit it?
[03:49] <mdke_> no
[03:49] <mhz> ok
[03:49] <mdke_> in any case, the guide doesn't appear to have been written
[03:50] <mhz> would be ok if i create a CategoryAuthor ?
[03:50] <mdke_> ?
[03:50] <mhz> so we can easily get those edited after policy has been up
[03:51] <mdke_> ok...
[03:52] <mdke_> actually perhaps that is a bad idea
[03:52] <mhz> ?
[03:52] <mdke_> we will probably have to give people a chance to remove documents which they are not happy with licensing under a "no attribution" licence policy
[03:53] <mhz> ooooh, good point
[03:54] <mhz> and how do you think we'll inform those people about the wiki policy?
[03:54] <mhz> I have noticed many wiki page creators are not subscribed to pages :D
[03:55] <mdke_> i don't know
[03:58] <mhz> ok
[04:00] <mhz> so, I'll make my own subpage listing those pages i have found that include the "by author" thing. once we set the policy, (when?) it'll be a little easier to inform them, at least manually.
[04:28] <mpt> "... setting up Ubuntu for use ... by Naaman Campbell"
[04:29] <mpt> I might want to set up Ubuntu for use by someone else...
[04:29] <mdke_> heh
[04:29] <mhz> he
[04:31] <mpt> that doc is on the wrong wiki anyway
[04:31] <mpt> so that's two excuses for nuking the byline
[04:32] <mdke_> ?
[04:32] <mdke_> mpt, they are the same wiki with a different address, mhz just posted that link because he is an edu kinda guy
[04:36] <mpt> the same wiki with a different address?
[04:36] <mdke_> i mean
[04:36] <mhz> they are sharing /data so we should see same pages
[04:36] <mdke_> wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com have the same pages
[04:37] <mhz> yes BUT..
[04:37] <mhz> one is working https and the other only http
[04:37] <mdke_> really?
[04:37] <mhz> :(
[04:37] <mdke_> how do you authenticate?
[04:37] <mhz> indeed
[04:38] <mhz> I have just found out that I have to login in www.ubuntu.org
[04:38] <mhz> so I get access to all pages
[04:39] <mdke_> you mean edubuntu.org
[04:39] <mhz> so, now that I loged in via edubuntu, I  can't reach ubuntu pages duh!
[04:39] <mhz> nop. 
[04:39] <mpt> www.ubuntu.org isn't computer-related :-)
[04:39] <mdke_> quite
[04:41] <mhz> http://www.ubuntu.com/  --> use wiki tab https://wiki.ubuntu.com/   -->   then login link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserPreferences
[04:42] <mhz> and now, I can see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CorporateUbuntu
[04:43] <mhz> notice the diff URL but same content
[04:43] <mhz> :)
[04:44] <mhz> however, I had first loged in via www.edubuntu.org, I could have not reached https:// urls
[04:44] <mhz> however, I would have seen same exact contents
[04:44] <mhz> now, the question is... Should we consider that a bug? or just a nonsense way to get contents ?
[10:53] <Burgwork> how do I get grep to only show me each match once?
[10:54] <LaserJock> Burgwork: not sure, I would pipe to sort and then uniq but maybe I should read the grep man page
[10:55] <LaserJock> or is that even what you are looking for ?
[10:55] <Burgwork> uniq did what I was looking for
[10:57] <Burgwork> grr, bloody sort
[10:57] <Burgwork> n3
[10:57] <Burgwork> n3129
[10:57] <Burgwork> it does stupid crap like that ^
[11:14] <LaserJock> I have a couple of questions about the server guide
[11:15] <LaserJock> In the last paragraph of the preface it talks about using vim as the text editor
[11:16] <LaserJock> I mentions sudo, but it capitalizes it to "Sudo". That isn't right is it?
[11:17] <LaserJock> also it says "Its recommended that you also run
[11:17] <LaserJock>  ..." but shouldn't that be "It's" ?
[11:23] <LaserJock> or I guess it should be "It is" to eliminate the contraction