=== LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:17] LaserJock, you are probably right about that thing in the serverguide, but it is such early days yet, that sort of thing will be rather common [12:18] mdke__: I didn't check but do the other docs have the same preface? [12:19] LaserJock, i don't think so, although they probably should [12:20] mdke__: I really like the conventions part. I am putting it in the packaging guide. The only thing is I don't like how at the beginning is calls the notes and stuff "admonitions" [12:20] admonitions sound kinda stern or negative [12:28] i know what you mean [12:28] LaserJock, i think we should have common prefaces for the docs [12:30] I agree, since the conventions should be the same [12:30] and the Contributing and Feedback section would be good too [12:30] good point [12:30] also probably "getting help" [12:31] right [12:32] what about if there happended to be doc specific conventions? Could those be handled? [12:34] yes, by not using the common one [12:34] what do you have in mind? [12:35] rob1, ping a ling a ling [12:36] mdke__: I just wondered. If a guide had some special conventions above and beyond the common ones [12:36] sure, i just couldn't think of what [12:36] mdke__: for instance in the server guide there is the vim part [12:36] i believe that the desktopguide has its own for that reason [12:36] ah, good point [12:36] why would the serverguide use vim... === mdke__ shakes his head sadly [12:37] I mean, there certainly should be a common convention because we have a common style guide [12:37] mdke__: because it is installed by default ;-) [12:37] nano is installed by default too [12:37] and it's 20 times easier [12:37] mdke__: sure about that? [12:37] pretty sure [12:37] it's on all my systems [12:37] on a server install? [12:38] i have a minimal install on my home server, nano is there [12:38] not a server tho [12:38] but the serverguide is not only for server installs [12:38] it's for everything [12:38] ok, well then they probably should use nano I guess. I mean vim is universal, but nano is easier [12:39] i haven't done a server install so I dunno, if vim is the only editor on all installs, then it would make sense to use that [12:40] but nano is much easier [12:40] Those who know vim can work with nano, those who know nano may not know vim. vim users will seek out vim [12:41] those who know neither, will prefer nano ;) [12:41] Yep, if you refer to nano all users are covered and can work [12:41] anyhow, we should be giving the user a choice in the conventions section [12:41] i don't see a reason to say "use this" [12:42] oh yeah i do [12:42] i guess the format of the guide throughout is "run command x" rather than "edit file y" [12:43] Yes, those who need the help have it those that don't do the mental substitution and fire up vim === mpt [n=mpt@201-27-71-186.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke__ nods [12:44] welcome by the way MichaleR [12:44] thanks [12:47] MichaleR, interested in ubuntu documentation? [12:48] A bit, as soon as I fulfill the exercise for the reader between ... [12:49] checking the svn docs out and extracting one of those for editing [12:52] or does one edit directly on the tree they've checked out? [12:55] yeah you can edit them directly [12:55] MichaleR, sorry, what exercise for the reader? [12:55] You just answered it. [12:56] ah ok [12:56] MichaleR, any particular docs interest you? are you a kubuntu or a ubuntu person? [12:56] When you check out the repository, do you then have a local subversion repository to check things out of or do you have a doc tree to edit [12:56] ubuntu [12:56] I've a history with networking and I see the server docs are ... sparse [12:57] MichaleR, the server doc was only born a week ago ;) [12:57] all help much appreciated [12:58] now, about your question [12:58] I picked a nice time to show up [12:58] ;) [12:58] you check out the repository [12:58] Which I've done [12:58] ok cool [12:58] you can use "svn up" to update it [12:58] and you can make changes in there, and send diff's to the mailing list [12:59] the process is described at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository === mdke__ is excited at all the new contributors turning up [12:59] indeed [12:59] Yes, I was reading that and got hung up on the "check out of my local or edit it" step, which you just cleared up. [01:00] they can hide my laziness [01:00] :) [01:00] I did want to read the section on openSSH, which was just contributed, but it's not in the serverguide.xml [01:01] << Also read the style guide to help avoid wrong path [01:01] serverguide.xml doesn't have any material i think, just includes to the other files that make up the document === mdke__ checks [01:01] yeah, that's right [01:01] networkapplications in this case [01:02] or network-applications [01:02] yes [01:02] the openssh bit is quite empty [01:02] in fact, entirely empty ;) [01:03] I could start in on DNS and DHCP while I lobby for inclusion of postfix in the MTA section [01:03] erm [01:03] postfix will be the mta [01:03] what is there now? [01:04] Brian Shumate just did something on openSSH according to email list traffic [01:04] MichaleR, yeah but he hasn't made a patch for us yet [01:04] exim [01:04] the debian default MTA [01:04] ok well postfix is the Ubuntu default MTA [01:04] :) [01:05] One of the likeable things . . . [01:05] i discussed it briefly with bhuvan and we agreed that the guide would use that [01:07] "guide would use that" that meaning postfix? [01:08] yes [01:09] So I can rush right off for a s/Exim/Postfix/ patch to apply :) [01:09] sure [01:10] MichaleR, have you had any experience with docbook xml? you find it relatively easy to understand? [01:11] HA! [01:11] That's part of the learning curve. [01:11] :) [01:12] But as someone who considers vim an advanced HTML editor I'm not too worried. There's validation tools to point out the errors also. [01:12] MichaleR, don't forget to check your work by using the validate.sh script and building the html. [01:12] yep, exactly [01:12] that wiki page should be good enough to get you through, especially since you know html [01:13] That part was doing well so far, and it directs the reader to my favorite kind of learning ~"read, see examples, mimic" [01:13] mine too [01:13] MichaleR, where are you from btw? [01:14] Portland, Oregon [01:14] And yes, I did see Jeff at the meeting earlier this week. [01:14] which jeff, and which meeting? [01:14] Though I started using Ubuntu in July [01:15] Jeff Waugh, at the Badger Badger Badger Tour final appearence [01:15] ah [01:15] good, well welcome aboard [01:15] Someone has already changed exim to postfix in the repository. [01:16] ah good [01:16] bhuvan i guess [01:16] How often does that get built out to the web site? [01:16] every day [01:16] http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ch04s14.html [01:18] ah, and the wiki page just lists the outline [01:18] yeah that's right [01:18] that may be out of date === wazza [n=Miranda@auproxy1.proxy.lucent.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:20] Not any more. [01:20] :) [01:22] What part of the UK are you in? [01:22] london [01:24] poor mdke === mdke nods [01:30] last time I was in london there were two layers of overcast [01:31] thick heavy overcast [01:32] of course, I had just come from Spain.... === mdke nods [01:32] who the hell unbanned that diable guy in -devel [01:32] tragic [01:35] indeed [01:35] he still owns ubuntu-laptop too [01:35] mdke, do you work for canonical? [01:35] no... [01:35] why? [01:36] some things others said [01:36] hmm, tell me all [01:37] sorry, can't [01:37] life is filled with secrets [01:37] but I don't think it involves you getting hired by Canonical [01:38] true [01:38] i'm not a big fan of rumours about me tho [01:38] especially when i don't know what they are [01:38] not rumours, just they way they talked about you [01:38] well as long as it was a good way :D [01:38] yes it was, don't worry [01:38] phew === Burgwork needs to write a bio of himself, in the Ubuntu perspecitive [01:39] i would have said something if I started working for them [01:40] Burgwork: As in "Burgwork is the odd human who tries to use me most days"? [01:40] mpt, little bit longer, with some more details [01:40] think author bio [01:40] check out bhuvan's website [01:40] he has an awesome bio [01:42] he even mentions each teacher at school [01:42] Corey Burger is a member of the Ubuntu Documentation Team, Laptop [01:42] Testing Team and has been involved with Ubuntu since the first [01:42] release. Also active in promoting Ubuntu and Open Source, he has given [01:42] several talks to conferences and Linux User Groups about Ubuntu. His [01:42] day job involves sales for Userful, a multiseat Linux vendor. [01:43] any thoughts? [01:44] you need the names of the high school teachers [01:45] haha [01:45] ouch [01:46] seriously, any comments? [01:46] assume that little bit of writing might be appearing in print [01:46] well you know more than me about you [01:46] ah, i see [01:46] sounds fine [01:47] I'd swap the halves of the first sentence [01:47] and add an "and" before "Laptop Testing Team" [01:47] but other than that it's peachy [01:47] ++ [01:47] thanks [01:48] where is it going? === mdke senses another secret [01:48] sorry, can't tell you that [01:48] bwahaha [01:48] heh === mdke starts putting 2 and 2 together [01:49] dammit, your supposed to get 4 [01:49] i was already in double figures [01:49] easy, Burgwork, he's only just started [01:50] mpt, :( [01:50] what? :-) [01:50] this little secret will be very cool, once I can tell you what it is [01:50] is it a job? [01:51] nah, just a contract [01:51] btw, once you reveal that you have a secret, people will guess until they hit it === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:51] that might be true [01:52] I have a special strategy to deal with that sort of thing [01:52] mpt, is it to cover your ears and sing? [01:52] no, that's what I do when people start talking about Harry Potter plot lines [01:52] hehe [01:53] but for anything which could be guessed by a process of elimination, I don't answer any questions at all [01:53] quite right too [01:54] and for anything morally palatable where, if it was true for me, I wouldn't want people to know, I refuse to answer even if it's false for me [01:54] just to provide a little extra cover for the people who it *is* true for === mdke tries to understand that === mdke gives up [01:55] --> sleep [01:55] E.g. if you ask me if I work for the KGB, I won't tell you, even though it's very unlikely that I do [01:56] night mdke [01:56] night mdke === jsgotangco [n=jsg@210.111.215.11] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:58] g'night and thanks for the introductions [01:58] mpt, where is the world are you now? [01:58] salut jsgotangco [02:01] cya mdke [02:01] yo dude [02:01] i'm in seoul [02:01] i'll be speaking in an hour === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:06] Burgwork, back in Brazil === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc === wazza [n=Miranda@auproxy1.proxy.lucent.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === wazza [n=Miranda@auproxy1.proxy.lucent.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.36.233] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robitaille [n=robitail@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@adsl-69-111-248-8.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@pc-252-84-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@adsl-69-111-248-8.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@adsl-69-111-248-8.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.36.161.235] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:10] hmm [06:15] ? [06:15] mdke keeps pinging me but is sleeping when I return from work [06:16] yeah, that's the problem with global communications === manicka [n=grant@203-217-48-85.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc === MichaleR [n=mikeraz@eye.patch.com] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@adsl-69-111-248-8.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === rob1 [n=rob@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:18] Docbook XML is giving me a headache... four lines of actual writing is enough for the night... === Madpilot is re-writing the Desktop Guide Common Task's "How to burn CDs" information (slowly) [09:20] heh [09:20] sounds good [09:21] Breezy's little popup when you insert a blank CD is great - no need to mention Gnomebaker right away, IMO [09:21] sweet, some of my hacked XML actually works in Yelp... [09:22] hehe [09:22] nice [09:22] Docbook is so damned verbose, I'm used to HTML... [09:22] yeah, once you get used to using the whole word its ok [09:24] hmm... is the "burn photo CD" option actually any different from the "burn data CD" one? Nautilus doesn't seem to act any different... [09:24] are you running dapper yet? [09:24] no, stock Breezy final [09:24] I would say it probably isn't [09:25] but it could be, I've seen burning apps where the photo thing was actually a vcd slide show [09:25] yeah [09:25] I'll leave it out, going to mention Serpentine in 20 words or less, though [09:26] I use nerolinux, for some reason linux doesn't like my dvd burner [09:27] mine works fine (at least for CDs, haven't bothered trying DVDs in in). Nautilus burns great, so does k3b, gnomebaker always crashes on me and produces coasters... === zenrox [n=zenrox@71.115.198.118] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:29] the only way I can do it is manually create .isos on the command line, then run burn it manually using growisofs [09:29] rob1, i've got to go to work now :( [09:29] dam [09:29] reply to my emails? [09:29] sure, which one? [09:29] any one [09:30] i've got this working copy of common-tasks.xml hanging around and I don't know whether to commit it [09:30] I'm gonna miss the meetig, christmas shopping to do [09:30] ok [09:30] (because its on saturday morning for me) [09:31] not much on the agenda anyhow [09:31] but I'd love feedback on my desktopguide ideas [09:31] commit your working copy if you want, we can always roll it back if it breaks or whatever [09:31] then I can check it out [09:32] rob1, i posted you a link to a build of it [09:32] mdke: I'm engaged in a large re-write of common-tasks.xml right now - maybe you should commit now before I do too much more? [09:32] okay [09:32] i wanted to agree an approach with rob [09:32] maybe I should break it up into more files so people can work on each bit [09:33] it's not a long file now [09:33] hmm [09:33] my changes are format based rather than content [09:33] it's going to be a bit longer once I add the Serpentine stuff, but not much longer [09:33] i just changed the music section as an example of where I wanted to go [09:33] I haven't looked at it in about two days.. dam christmas parties [09:34] mdke: commit, I'll save my changes locally, and cut'n'paste back in after I svn up [09:34] alright, doing that now [09:34] mdke, I'm not totally opposed to your ideas, so commit them and I can add my ideas to it [09:34] OK [09:34] rob1, ok, done. I'm off to work, let me know how you find that structure [09:35] mdke, ok [09:35] bye [09:35] cya mdke [09:36] man work was torture today, we are in the process of upgrading from nt to xp.. oh the pain, the pain! [09:37] just getting the three pcs sitting on my desk was painful enough [09:37] getting them done, that is [09:38] now that XP's installed, you've got to make a working OS out if it - that'll take another half day or so... [09:38] we have ghost images made by the software guys, but every one we get is broken in some way [09:39] for some odd reason my home drive isn't mapping properly [09:40] when I log onto a nt box it works fine however [09:40] fun [09:40] wall| <-- head [09:41] hmm... when I'm viewing the svn docs thru Yelp (launched from the command line), none of the contents of (or any xref tag) seems to show up - is that normal? === rob1 checks how well the gameboy adv is doing on ebay [09:42] yelp doesn't properly support some of the more exotic docbook tags [09:43] I just run the makefile (make dg-C in /ubuntu) then check the resulting .html files under /build when I want to see the results [09:43] using firefox [09:44] I'll figure that out later - for now it's enough that the basic text is appearing where I want it... [09:45] yelp supports olink tags better (so I'm led to beleave) so I'll be changing all the xrefs to olinks soon [09:46] I've already set up the olink database for the desktop guide, so its ready to go for them [09:46] although they work a little differently to xrefs [09:46] bbs [09:46] should someone do a global search/replace for "Add/Remove Applications", given that the menu entry & app is actually just called "Add Applications"? === Madpilot burns a very strange mix of music, just to test Serpentine... === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000000cc07fc.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:05] Madpilot, we are still deciding how we will tell the users when to install packages [10:11] fair enough [10:11] does serpentine only do music cds? [10:11] crap, I can't find the "how to generate an svn diff" stuff on the wiki right now [10:11] serpentine? yes, AFAIK [10:12] cd to the directory, do svn diff filename.xml > filename.xml.diff [10:12] thnx [10:14] OK, diff done for common-tasks.xml, off to the list in a moment [10:15] great, I'll apply it for you === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:17] hmm [10:18] Madpilot, ensure to do 'svn up' before preparing 'svn diff' [10:18] I wonder how much nero is to buy? [10:18] mdke have recently applied a patch to that file, common-tasks.xml [10:18] bhuvan: I got mdke's patch, so I should be OK [10:19] nice [10:19] diff sent to list [10:19] ooo only 19.95 usd [10:20] thats gone down $10 since last time I saw it [10:35] rob1: got my diff? [10:35] just about to apply it [10:38] did you run the validate script on desktopguide.xml first? [10:40] yes - see my email - the errors seemed to concern parts of the xml I hadn't modified? [10:40] line 57, in how do I burn music cds [10:40] you just mixed the listitem tags up [10:41] opened one before closing another? [10:41] yeah [10:41] yeah, I had two /listitems in a row there, I see now [10:42] fixed and committed [10:42] thnx [10:43] just run ../../../validate.sh desktopguide.xml and it will tell you where the error is [10:43] and what file its in [10:43] with the three leading / like that? [10:44] if you run it from the ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/desktopguide/C directory [10:44] because its located in the ubuntu directory [10:44] OK, got you. [10:45] the Serpetine section needs a bit of work... but it can wait until tomorrow, it's 0145 here... [10:45] heh yeah, sure [10:45] good work [10:45] btw [10:46] thanks again - more later === rob1 looks forward to it [10:55] we might add the cd burning as its own section or under mulitmedia maybe [10:57] anyway, night === Belutz [n=Belutz@ubuntu/member/belutz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-99.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-142.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:47] #ubuntu-devel === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-42.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kjcole [n=kjcole@pchb1f.gallaudet.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:21] regarding server guide.. [03:21] any opinion about including access methods in version control section [03:21] various access methods are http://, https://, svn://, svn+ssh://, etc. === bhuvan misses Burgundavia [03:31] bhuvan: i think i'm the only one at the keys :) and i haven't had a chance to look at the server guide recently [03:33] greets [03:34] jjesse, ok :) === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.36.233] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === Kingbahamut [n=bahamut@c-24-98-229-28.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === freeflying [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.38] has joined #ubuntu-doc === freeflying [n=freeflyi@61.190.65.38] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@lambda.chem.unr.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:11] Madpilot: ping? [05:43] rob1, around? [05:44] can anyone think of any agenda items for the meeting? === ned [n=ned@88-107-108-15.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:46] hi there ned [05:46] hi all :-) [05:47] I'm a little confused with the docbook thing... [05:47] ned, thanks for those mails to the list. [05:47] let's get you working in docbook :) [05:47] you are welcome - it is nice to help [05:48] I have been reading about it - I thought it was an app :-o [05:48] heh [05:48] it is like html [05:48] are you familiar with html? [05:48] mdke: what about the common Preface thing? [05:48] so I see [05:48] LaserJock, yeah nice one [05:48] I know what HTML is but have never used it [05:49] well never written it [05:49] okay [05:49] ned, have you got as far as downloading our repository? [05:50] nope - I'm going through the crashcourse for docbook [05:50] ah cool [05:50] ned, feel free to fire any questions [05:50] i'm not very good with it myself actually [05:50] hehe [05:50] it's a lot of trial and error learning [05:51] i think I will need to spend quite a while to get the hang of it [05:51] ned, a key tool is the validation script in our archive, that tells you if there are any errors [05:51] ned: it is easier if you work on examples. The docs have a lot of stuff for people used th HTML, etc. [05:51] the best thing is to download our repository, and have a look at some examples [05:51] the desktop guide was really useful btw - I learned alot proof reading it :-) [05:51] ahh yes that sounds good [05:52] the key guide for that is this: [05:52] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository [05:52] okay I will check it out - thx [06:01] I think it may take a while to download :-) [06:04] ned: you on dialup, It's about 170MB [06:05] nahh got adsl thankfully [06:05] yeah it's big [06:05] although it is 170MB on my disk, not sure if it is the same to download [06:05] what text editor do you folks write in? [06:05] gedit [06:06] bluefish is nice too [06:06] gvim or gedit or emacs or nano [06:06] whatever I feel like at the moment ;-) [06:06] something with syntax highlighting will help [06:06] for sure [06:06] gedit has syntax highlights? (I haven't used any of those apps) [06:06] gedit [06:07] does [06:07] ok gedit it is then :-) [06:07] what part of the uk are you in ned? [06:08] nottingham/derby area [06:08] i'm in london [06:08] aha [06:09] it seems gedit is the deault text editor - thats handy [06:09] *default [06:13] there instructions say : /ubuntu-doc/gnome/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml but there is no gnome folder... quickguide is in the root [06:14] mdke: the diff is starting to get pretty big on packagingguide.xml ;-) [06:14] ned: go to ubuntu instead of gnome [06:14] ok [06:14] LaserJock, send it over [06:15] ned, good point, we'll update them [06:15]