[11:02] <kjcole> Hullo?  Is there a meeting about to happen?
[11:03] <Seveas> no
[11:03] <Seveas> or actually yes
[11:03] <Seveas> docteam
[11:03] <Seveas> according to the agenda
[11:03] <kjcole> Seveas, that's what I thought.  It just seemed a bit quiet.
[11:04] <Seveas> yeah
[11:05] <LaserJock> I'm here but I will probably be in-and-out 
[11:06] <kjcole> Is anyone supposed to herd the cats?  (I'm just a cat here, not a cat-herder.)
[11:06] <LaserJock> lol, seems all the herders are missing :-)
[11:07] <kjcole> Meow, then.
[11:08] <mdke> any docteam around?
[11:09] <azeem> 23:01 < LaserJock> I'm here but I will probably be in-and-out
[11:09] <mdke> thanks azeem 
[11:10] <mdke> the agenda is a bit sparse this week...
[11:11] <kjcole> mdke, ubuntu-doc
[11:15] <mdke> i'll hang around just in case anyone turns up
[11:17] <LaserJock> so is there a meeting or no?
[11:18] <mdke> in theory yeah
[11:19] <LaserJock> mdke: are the Burger's going to be here?
[11:19] <kjcole> I'm making noise in some other channels to see if I can scare up people (or cats, as I said earlier).
[11:21] <mdke> not sure LaserJock 
[11:22] <mdke> ah, we can talk about the xml vs html issue if anyone has any immediate thoughts
[11:23] <mdke> i only just posted it to the list
[11:23] <kjcole> OK.  What's a good validating XML editor?
[11:24] <mdke> i don't know one, why?
[11:24] <kjcole> I'm fooling around with Conglomerate, but wonder what's available, because I'm writing a doc from existing sources in XML.
[11:25] <kjcole> My co-editor wants to throw it all out and go with Twisted Matrix's documentation system Lore.  He's very enthusiastic about it, but I see us going off on a tangent.
[11:26] <kjcole> A few DocTeam members have said "Don't worry about the format.  Worry about the content.  We'll take care of the reformatting."
[11:26] <mdke> is this edubuntu stuff?
[11:26] <kjcole> It just seemed silly to me not to take advantage of the existing format.
[11:26] <kjcole> mdke, yeah.  Edubuntu.
[11:26] <mdke> you have a different mailing list for edubuntu docs?
[11:27] <kjcole> mdke, I think I'm losing track.  I don't know. 
[11:27] <mdke> :)
[11:27] <mdke> i haven't heard of any of that stuff, so I guess you must!
[11:28] <kjcole> mdke, it wasn't in a mailing list.  It was either a docteam meeting or a edubutu meeting here.  More likely edubutu meeting.
[11:28] <mdke> ahh
[11:29] <mdke> well i haven't heard of lore or conglomerate either :)
[11:29] <kjcole> mdke, it all blurs together for me as what I'm working on is trying to get accessible documentation for deaf students = docteam, edubutu, accessibility teams.
[11:30] <mdke> ah interesting
[11:30] <mdke> but you're not using our repository to store the documentation?
[11:30] <kjcole> Conglomerate I found when I was looking for a validating XML editor.  Haven't played with it much yet, but it looks good.
[11:30] <mdke> you should feel free to if you like
[11:31] <kjcole> mdke, trying to learn everything: I'm fooling around in bzr for the moment.
[11:31] <kjcole> mdke, the branch is registered on Launchpad.
[11:32] <mdke> ah fair enough
[11:32] <mdke> cookbook?
[11:33] <kjcole> mdke, my big concern is that by trying to learn everything, I'll accomplish nothing.  (XML, DocBook, bzr, RCS in general, launchpad, and living in a Debian-like universe, when coming from a a RedHat one.)
[11:33] <kjcole> mdke, yep.  Cookbook.
[11:34] <mdke> heh
[11:34] <mdke> i started learning xml and svn together
[11:35] <mdke> you kinda do whatever you can to get stuff done
[11:35] <kjcole> lore is a kind of watered-down XML or watered-up XHTML.  I'm not really impressed with what I've seen of it.  Docbook XML looks like it's more promising, but considerably more complex as well.
[11:35] <mdke> ah
[11:36] <kjcole> "lore" is the command to post-process the pages into something more standard. Conglomerate on the other hand, is a validating XML editor, not an XML processor... at least I don't think it is.
[11:37] <mdke> k
[11:37] <mdke> gedit is nice :)
[11:39] <kjcole> mdke, Does gedit do anything special?  (I thought it was just your basic editor.  I've used it a couple of times.)
[11:39] <mdke> syntax highlighting, more or less ;)
[11:39] <mdke> i use the validation script in the docteam repo
[11:39] <kjcole> mdke, we should probably clear outa here, since as a meeting log, this is going to be useless to anyone else.
[11:40] <mdke> yes
[11:40] <mdke> is anyone interested in talking about any agenda items?
[11:40] <mdke> any initial thoughts on whether to ship xml or html?
[11:42] <LaserJock> I am but I don't count for much
[11:42] <LaserJock> xml or xhtml?
[11:43] <mdke> LaserJock, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
[11:44] <rob1> hi I'm here
[11:44] <mdke> rob1, no real meeting to speak of, hope you didnt quit your shopping for us
[11:44] <rob1> no
[11:44] <mdke> rob1, i was just asking for any initial thoughts on the xml vs html thread I just started on -doc and -desktop
[11:44] <rob1> my wife wants me to burn a cd of photos so we can get them printed off
[11:45] <LaserJock> mdke: can we ship both but default to html?
[11:45] <mdke> LaserJock, shipping both would be kinda confusing for the user
[11:46] <rob1> I think we should ship as html for now if we can, but I might if I get time have a crack at getting yelp to use our xslt if I get the time
[11:46] <LaserJock> mdke: does the user have to know?
[11:46] <mdke> LaserJock, we can ship both but have only one appear in the yelp menu, for sure
[11:46] <LaserJock> mdke: that is what I meant
[11:46] <mdke> rob1, we can do that, but i don't really see the point in forcing the user to suffer the speed reduction
[11:46] <LaserJock> I like the sidbar, but it is slow
[11:46] <LaserJock> *sidebar
[11:47] <rob1> mdke, that is true.
[11:47] <rob1> how will it effect translations? 
[11:47] <rob1> html that is?
[11:47] <mdke> rob1, i'm pretty sure it won't affect them
[11:47] <rob1> mdke, what was the problem last time?
[11:47] <mdke> rob1, the About Ubuntu icon in the menu needs xml for translations to work
[11:48] <rob1> was that the only thing stopping us from shipping html last time
[11:48] <rob1> ?
[11:49] <mdke> afaics
[11:49] <mdke> that, and the fact that I didn't know how to use scrollkeeper
[11:49] <rob1> just reading your email now..
[11:49] <mdke> i'll do some tests on the translations
[11:50] <rob1> even if it doesn't get its own app, can we convert it to xml and load it into launchpad for translations, then convert to html again like the rest of our docs?
[11:50] <mdke> eh?
[11:51] <mdke> about ubuntu?
[11:51] <rob1> about ubuntu is html right?
[11:51] <mdke> it is xml already
[11:51] <rob1> oh
[11:51] <mdke> :)
[11:51] <rob1> thats odd then
[11:52] <rob1> why couldn't that be shipped as html too along with the rest of our docs?
[11:52] <mdke> it could, if the menu item is going to be something else
[11:52] <mdke> the launcher from the menu needs it to be in xml
[11:52] <rob1> why?
[11:53] <mdke> the command is "yelp ghelp:about-ubuntu"
[11:53] <mdke> whatever the hell that is, it wants xml
[11:54] <rob1> well the yelp man page sucks
[11:54] <mdke> anything else of interest on the agenda?
[11:55] <rob1> have you looked at common-tasks.xml today?
[11:55] <Riddell> what's the status of single or split kubuntu/ubuntu packaging?
[11:55] <mdke> not closelyt
[11:55] <mdke> Riddell, where we left it I think. I can summarise:
[11:55] <mdke> "Hopefully we can get dholbach to do the work"
[11:55] <rob1> brian added some cd burning stuff, I think the whole page needs a face lift
[11:56] <Riddell> no dholbach here today I see
[11:56] <mdke> Riddell, nah he's gone to bed i think
[11:56] <Riddell> oh yes, I forget these europeans live in the future
[11:56] <mdke> rob1, i'd like to have a good extended discussion on the desktopguide
[11:56] <mdke> Riddell, you're not european up there huh? >_<
[11:56] <Riddell> not in the US I'm not :)
[11:57] <rob1> mdke, what about it?
[11:57] <mdke> Riddell, you moved there?
[11:57] <Riddell> no, just this week
[11:57] <mdke> phew
[11:57] <mdke> Riddell, don't forget you're european tho, even while there
[11:58] <mdke> that's pretty cool
[11:58] <Riddell> they haven't assimilated yet, I don't even drink this Diet Mountain Due they feed us
[11:58] <rob1> ok I've got to go
[11:58] <mdke> rob1, those things I mailed you about: handling software installation, and structure of sections (qanda or split <para> and qanda)
[11:58] <LaserJock> Riddell:  Mountain Dew ;-)
[11:58] <mdke> Riddell, good man
[11:59] <rob1> mdke, when I get time later today I will respond to all that 
[11:59] <mdke> rob1, great, in the meantime, i'm working on the css
[11:59] <LaserJock> did the common preface, etc. get discussed
[11:59] <rob1> mdke, good :)
[11:59] <mdke> LaserJock, not yet, i'll raise it with rob later on
[12:00] <mdke> LaserJock, best to discuss on the list first I think, so rob and bhuvan can both comment
[12:00] <rob1> just quickly, I stole the preface for the faqguide because it needed extra info/some things changed to fit in
[12:00] <mdke> we can talk it over via email
[12:00] <rob1> I can't see why we can't have the one universal one though, but make sure it is a valid xml file (with a header) so we can xinclude it
[12:01] <rob1> then it only has to be translated once
[12:01] <mdke> +1
[12:01] <rob1> :)
[12:01] <rob1> ok got to go
[12:01] <rob1> bye
[12:01] <LaserJock> cya
[12:01] <mdke> bye
[12:01] <mdke> Judax, thanks for coming, the meeting is a bit of a damp squib
[12:01] <mdke> we're just chatting
[12:01] <mdke> :)
[12:02] <Judax> well, that is fun too
[12:02] <LaserJock> so what is the purpose of using xml then if we are just going to ship html?
[12:02] <Judax> sounds like you are all drunk on mountain dew?
[12:02] <LaserJock> Pepsi for me ;P
[12:02] <mdke> LaserJock, docbook xml is more flexible for exporting to different formats, and we can translate it, too
[12:03] <LaserJock> mdke: but if everything is html then you don't have different formats. HTML is harder to translate than XML?
[12:03] <mdke> yeah
[12:04] <mdke> LaserJock, and don't forget we might want to make pdf's, that sort of thing
[12:04] <mdke> but the translation is very important
[12:04] <LaserJock> mdke: right
[12:04] <mdke> it's crazy hard to make pot files from html