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| hunger | This 2.6.15 kernel is strange! | 09:12 |
|---|---|---|
| hunger | Yesterday night the -6-686 did not boot before I went to bed. When I woke up today it did. | 09:13 |
| hunger | The -6-686 works way better than the -5-686 though | 09:17 |
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| spike | 'morning | 11:13 |
| fabbione | morning guys | 11:15 |
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-server:fabbione] : ubuntu-server discussions and support | for general support see #ubuntu or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InternetRelayChat for other channels | Download Ubuntu Server Edition at http://releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/5.10/ | Ubuntu Server dapper specs: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-server/+specs | Ubuntu Server forums at http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45 | ||
| fabbione | troy: please leave a pointer to the specs | 11:16 |
| fabbione | given that's what we are going to play for dapper | 11:17 |
| === spike checks the specs | ||
| spike | fabbione: is a ML available or it's still a work in progress? | 11:25 |
| fabbione | spike: i did ask again yesterday to the admins | 11:25 |
| fabbione | but other than that i have no news | 11:25 |
| spike | fabbione: woooo, finally the MD5 checker, god bless you man :) | 11:29 |
| fabbione | spike: i have the core already implemented | 11:30 |
| fabbione | i hope to finish it sometimes next week | 11:31 |
| spike | A dtrace port or use/investigate/integrate/package system tap (apparently a dtrace-alike for Linux) <------ that doesnt work afaik | 11:32 |
| spike | systemtap I mean. it's under dev, but far from being enterprise ready | 11:32 |
| spike | last time I checked at least, might check again, I was after it too | 11:32 |
| spike | (playing with dtrace with solaris10/nexenta) | 11:33 |
| fabbione | spike: take into account that some stuff there is really in "wishlist" state | 11:33 |
| fabbione | not all the spec will and/or can be implemented for dapper | 11:33 |
| fabbione | but since we had the ideas, we wrote all of them down | 11:33 |
| fabbione | anyway... lunch :) | 11:33 |
| fabbione | i am hungry | 11:33 |
| spike | fabbione: about /etc under RCS... would you think that throwing in cfengine would be too much of a trouble? | 11:34 |
| spike | ok, talk to u later | 11:34 |
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| sebest_ | hello | 01:26 |
| spike | hi there | 01:27 |
| sebest_ | to introduce myself, i'm one of the developpers of avahi, and i wrote the "corporate users" part of this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfSpec/Misc | 01:28 |
| sebest_ | and i was interested in a ubuntu for server with the same spirit as its desktop counterpart | 01:28 |
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| spike | sebest_: cool, I was lookin at that few days ago, really nice stuff | 01:30 |
| sebest_ | spike, yes will make ubuntu even easier to use :) | 01:31 |
| sebest_ | if we can get a server that works nicely with the dekstop, it would be a really great thing for small business | 01:31 |
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| spike | sebest_: I agree. not my personal first interest, but indeed nice | 01:33 |
| spike | 'lo Valandil | 01:33 |
| sebest_ | fabbione, the RCS idea for the servers is great, i thought about it previously using svn (but bzr is equivalent) but why does it need the crontab script? | 01:38 |
| sebest_ | with subversion you can have action on commit | 01:38 |
| fabbione | sebest_: it's not a problem of action on commit | 01:38 |
| sebest_ | eg: call a script that check which file as been altered and restart the coressponding service | 01:38 |
| fabbione | no no.. you are on the wrong track | 01:38 |
| fabbione | the crontab is to make the commit transparent to the admin | 01:39 |
| fabbione | let say you start editing files | 01:39 |
| fabbione | and you forget to commit | 01:39 |
| fabbione | the crontab will commit for you | 01:39 |
| fabbione | with a timestamped commit | 01:39 |
| fabbione | but no service restart | 01:39 |
| fabbione | that's up to the admin | 01:39 |
| fabbione | but the idea is good.. it could be a config option | 01:39 |
| === spike proposed a stronger solution cfengine like | ||
| fabbione | even if the hook would be pretty complex | 01:40 |
| spike | and that would help with stuff like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkWideUpdates | 01:40 |
| sebest_ | ah ok | 01:40 |
| fabbione | spike: i don't know cfengine and how complex it is | 01:40 |
| spike | so it would be, imho, a better approach for further development | 01:40 |
| fabbione | spike: none of the admins did ever mention it | 01:40 |
| fabbione | during the spec writing.. that's it | 01:40 |
| spike | fabbione: I guess I can contribute on that.. | 01:40 |
| fabbione | spike: the specs are "closed" for dapper | 01:40 |
| fabbione | you are welcome to add comments and ideas at the bottom of the wiki | 01:41 |
| spike | fabbione: well, imho that's the standard for large network management, as accepted by usenix/sage | 01:41 |
| sebest_ | another nice thing with RCS, is versionning (rollback) and log message to explain the chaange | 01:41 |
| fabbione | spike: please add it at the end | 01:41 |
| fabbione | spike: so there is a record | 01:41 |
| fabbione | and we will not forget | 01:41 |
| spike | they've also got dpkg hoos, to install pkgs and such | 01:41 |
| spike | hooks* | 01:41 |
| spike | ok | 01:41 |
| fabbione | sebest_: the idea behind RCS is exactly to give admins the possibility to rollback easily | 01:42 |
| sebest_ | each admin will have an etc in their home, so they can edit there local copy, right? | 01:43 |
| sebest_ | they don't need to sudo or su to edit config file? | 01:43 |
| spike | fabbione: to this page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerCandy | 01:43 |
| fabbione | in theory | 01:43 |
| fabbione | you could also push changes between differnt machines | 01:43 |
| fabbione | like you do a change on a machine | 01:43 |
| fabbione | sshcluster to do a bzr cherrypick that changeset | 01:43 |
| fabbione | spike: yes | 01:43 |
| fabbione | so that for example your apache config is updated everywhere on the production servers from the staging/testing machine | 01:43 |
| sebest_ | would it be possible to give access to some part of /etc/ selectively | 01:43 |
| sebest_ | eg not allow someone to alter apache config, and another one postfix | 01:44 |
| fabbione | sebest_: that's a bzr feature we are missing | 01:44 |
| fabbione | nested trees... | 01:44 |
| fabbione | basically bzr archives inside bzr archives | 01:44 |
| fabbione | you achive that possibility once there are nested trees and you can block access via normal unix permissions | 01:44 |
| sebest_ | hum, is it a planned feature? | 01:45 |
| fabbione | yes | 01:45 |
| fabbione | but there is no ETA on it yet | 01:45 |
| spike | mmmh, doesnt svn gives you ability to restrict access to subdir, does it? I seem to recall such thing | 01:45 |
| fabbione | plus we need to consider that we need to use a stable version of bzr | 01:45 |
| === spike never used bzr | ||
| fabbione | spike: not that i know of | 01:46 |
| spike | fabbione: I'll check that out | 01:46 |
| fabbione | and in any case svn has the problems that it requires a running server | 01:46 |
| fabbione | bzr doesn't | 01:46 |
| sebest_ | a running server? | 01:46 |
| fabbione | well you need to setup the server side of svn | 01:46 |
| sebest_ | you mean for remote access? | 01:46 |
| fabbione | even the local db | 01:46 |
| sebest_ | no | 01:46 |
| sebest_ | svn admin create toto | 01:46 |
| sebest_ | svn co file://path/toto | 01:47 |
| fabbione | sebest_: but than you lose other features | 01:47 |
| sebest_ | ah maybe, i don't know | 01:47 |
| fabbione | like the possibility to cherry pick from server to another | 01:47 |
| sebest_ | i know that i use it without server | 01:47 |
| === spike avoid commenting 'till he learned more about bzr | ||
| sebest_ | i use it over ssh | 01:47 |
| spike | cherry pick? | 01:47 |
| fabbione | i admin that my svn experience is client side only | 01:47 |
| === spike uses svn server and likes it a lot | ||
| fabbione | spike: yes.. never done cherry picking? | 01:48 |
| === sebest_ too | ||
| spike | ssh has restrictions, principally no virtual users | 01:48 |
| spike | fabbione: oh, ok, just googled the term. no, I havent, never had the need | 01:49 |
| sebest_ | i know that svn can have lock problem when using db format | 01:49 |
| sebest_ | it's better to use ffs | 01:50 |
| fabbione | ok | 01:50 |
| fabbione | but we are not going on svn.. i can tell you that from now | 01:50 |
| sebest_ | i know nearly nothing about bzr yet | 01:50 |
| spike | sebest_: fsfs solves that | 01:50 |
| spike | yep | 01:50 |
| fabbione | plus you need to keep in mind one thing | 01:50 |
| fabbione | this miniRCS thingy | 01:51 |
| sebest_ | but i'm ok with any RCS system as long as it fullfill our need :) | 01:51 |
| fabbione | is meant to be used only for "recovery" | 01:51 |
| fabbione | it's not something you are going to use regularly to do your development | 01:51 |
| fabbione | think about it like a daily backup | 01:51 |
| fabbione | except a bit more powerful :) | 01:51 |
| sebest_ | the advantages that i saw what the loggin stuff (each admin, can write a message about why he made a change) | 01:52 |
| spike | well,once u've it up it should be up to u to use it whatever u want it for, no? I don't see why designing something like an RCS system restricted to "recover" | 01:52 |
| sebest_ | so it's easier to trace wrong change | 01:52 |
| fabbione | sebest_: you don't lose that | 01:52 |
| sebest_ | and also easier to have many admins working on the same server | 01:52 |
| fabbione | sebest_: the cron is there only if changes are done and you forget to commit | 01:52 |
| fabbione | if there are no changes, there is no commit | 01:52 |
| sebest_ | fabbione, yes i got it :) | 01:52 |
| spike | fabbione: btw, why bzr? | 01:52 |
| fabbione | spike: it's distributed, doesn't require a central db/server and we support it directly :) | 01:53 |
| spike | and, do you think the infrastructure will be modularized enough so one can replace bzr with something else? | 01:53 |
| fabbione | possibly yes | 01:53 |
| fabbione | i didn't get to write that code yet | 01:53 |
| spike | because, now that u mentioned changes and multiple admin, I'm working on stuff to wrap things like that in a ticketing system, trac like, because that's what you relly want to large enterprise imho | 01:54 |
| spike | and svn is nicely integrated with trac, so to me, bzr is a problem from that POV | 01:54 |
| fabbione | spike: svn is not distributed and that gives me tons of other problems | 01:54 |
| fabbione | spike: i can write it modular.. you can write the svn plugins | 01:55 |
| fabbione | but i am not going to invest time on RCS != bzr | 01:55 |
| spike | fabbione: whatever, guess the spec should just allow switching. I never had a prob with it, I guess because mine and yours requirements are different | 01:55 |
| spike | fabbione: that's perfect for me, I'll invest time to support svn, I'd just like the specs to allow me to do so | 01:56 |
| fabbione | spike: as it is they don't.. but that's a code design issue | 01:56 |
| fabbione | spike: there is no need for the specs to be modified | 01:56 |
| fabbione | i can just do that at code level | 01:56 |
| fabbione | and allow a certain level of modularization | 01:56 |
| spike | fabbione: ok, "specs" was just a name for it,whereever you wanna do it, I'm fine with it | 01:57 |
| fabbione | spike: so am i :) | 01:57 |
| spike | fabbione: do you mind an OT question? are you familiar with telecom interbusiness router issues when it comes to additional subnets? | 01:58 |
| fabbione | spike: telecom italia? | 01:58 |
| spike | imho they do something really nasty here, but they have exclusive access to the router, and I'm not sure how to convince them they have to reconfigure it | 01:58 |
| spike | fabbione: yes | 01:58 |
| fabbione | spike: no sorry | 01:59 |
| fabbione | i don't live in italy | 01:59 |
| fabbione | and i did stop working for seabone a loooooong time ago | 01:59 |
| spike | good for you :), actually not either I will anymore in a month :D | 01:59 |
| sebest_ | fabbione, what kind of help do you need for the server related stuff on ubuntu? | 02:06 |
| sebest_ | personnality i've interest in the SBS stuff | 02:08 |
| sebest_ | this may be a particular use case of the server project | 02:09 |
| fabbione | sebest_: it depends what you can do | 02:10 |
| sebest_ | i go eating, we'll discuss this later | 02:10 |
| fabbione | i might not be around later | 02:11 |
| fabbione | but ok | 02:11 |
| fabbione | enjoy your lunch | 02:11 |
| sebest_ | i can do a lot things ;) (skills in admin, packaging and programming C/php/python) | 02:11 |
| spike | php isnt really programming :P | 02:11 |
| === spike <--- evil | ||
| spike | :D | 02:11 |
| sebest_ | that's why i added pythoon ;) | 02:11 |
| sebest_ | brb | 02:12 |
| Valandil | hi all :-) | 02:19 |
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| sebest_ | re | 03:28 |
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| spike | re | 04:31 |
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