[09:12] <hunger> This 2.6.15 kernel is strange!
[09:13] <hunger> Yesterday night the -6-686 did not boot before I went to bed. When I woke up today it did.
[09:17] <hunger> The -6-686 works way better than the -5-686 though
[11:13] <spike> 'morning
[11:15] <fabbione> morning guys
[11:16] <fabbione> troy: please leave a pointer to the specs
[11:17] <fabbione> given that's what we are going to play for dapper
[11:25] <spike> fabbione: is a ML available or it's still a work in progress?
[11:25] <fabbione> spike: i did ask again yesterday to the admins
[11:25] <fabbione> but other than that i have no news
[11:29] <spike> fabbione: woooo, finally the MD5 checker, god bless you man :)
[11:30] <fabbione> spike: i have the core already implemented
[11:31] <fabbione> i hope to finish it sometimes next week
[11:32] <spike> A dtrace port or use/investigate/integrate/package system tap (apparently a dtrace-alike for Linux) <------ that doesnt work afaik
[11:32] <spike> systemtap I mean. it's under dev, but far from being enterprise ready
[11:32] <spike> last time I checked at least, might check again, I was after it too
[11:33] <spike> (playing with dtrace with solaris10/nexenta)
[11:33] <fabbione> spike: take into account that some stuff there is really in "wishlist" state
[11:33] <fabbione> not all the spec will and/or can be implemented for dapper
[11:33] <fabbione> but since we had the ideas, we wrote all of them down
[11:33] <fabbione> anyway... lunch :)
[11:33] <fabbione> i am hungry
[11:34] <spike> fabbione: about /etc under RCS... would you think that throwing in cfengine would be too much of a trouble?
[11:34] <spike> ok, talk to u later
[01:26] <sebest_> hello
[01:27] <spike> hi there
[01:28] <sebest_> to introduce myself, i'm one of the developpers of avahi, and i wrote the "corporate users" part of this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfSpec/Misc
[01:28] <sebest_> and i was interested in a ubuntu for server with the same spirit as its desktop counterpart
[01:30] <spike> sebest_: cool, I was lookin at that few days ago, really nice stuff
[01:31] <sebest_> spike, yes will make ubuntu even easier to use :)
[01:31] <sebest_> if we can get a server that works nicely with the dekstop, it would be a really great thing for small business
[01:33] <spike> sebest_: I agree. not my personal first interest, but indeed nice
[01:33] <spike> 'lo Valandil
[01:38] <sebest_> fabbione, the RCS idea for the servers is great, i thought about it previously using svn (but bzr is equivalent) but why does it need the crontab script?
[01:38] <sebest_> with subversion you can have action on commit
[01:38] <fabbione> sebest_: it's not a problem of action on commit
[01:38] <sebest_> eg: call a script that check which file as been altered and restart the coressponding service
[01:38] <fabbione> no no.. you are on the wrong track
[01:39] <fabbione> the crontab is to make the commit transparent to the admin
[01:39] <fabbione> let say you start editing files
[01:39] <fabbione> and you forget to commit
[01:39] <fabbione> the crontab will commit for you
[01:39] <fabbione> with a timestamped commit
[01:39] <fabbione> but no service restart
[01:39] <fabbione> that's up to the admin
[01:39] <fabbione> but the idea is good.. it could be a config option
[01:40] <fabbione> even if the hook would be pretty complex
[01:40] <spike> and that would help with stuff like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkWideUpdates
[01:40] <sebest_> ah ok
[01:40] <fabbione> spike: i don't know cfengine and how complex it is
[01:40] <spike> so it would be, imho, a better approach for further development
[01:40] <fabbione> spike: none of the admins did ever mention it
[01:40] <fabbione> during the spec writing.. that's it
[01:40] <spike> fabbione: I guess I can contribute on that..
[01:40] <fabbione> spike: the specs are "closed" for dapper
[01:41] <fabbione> you are welcome to add comments and ideas at the bottom of the wiki
[01:41] <spike> fabbione: well, imho that's the standard for large network management, as accepted by usenix/sage
[01:41] <sebest_> another nice thing with RCS, is versionning (rollback) and log message to explain the chaange
[01:41] <fabbione> spike: please add it at the end
[01:41] <fabbione> spike: so there is a record
[01:41] <fabbione> and we will not forget
[01:41] <spike> they've also got dpkg hoos, to install pkgs and such
[01:41] <spike> hooks*
[01:41] <spike> ok
[01:42] <fabbione> sebest_: the idea behind RCS is exactly to give admins the possibility to rollback easily
[01:43] <sebest_> each admin will have an etc in their home, so they can edit there local copy, right?
[01:43] <sebest_> they don't need to sudo or su to edit config file?
[01:43] <spike> fabbione: to this page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerCandy
[01:43] <fabbione> in theory
[01:43] <fabbione> you could also push changes between differnt machines
[01:43] <fabbione> like you do a change on a machine
[01:43] <fabbione> sshcluster to do a bzr cherrypick that changeset
[01:43] <fabbione> spike: yes
[01:43] <fabbione> so that for example your apache config is updated everywhere on the production servers from the staging/testing machine
[01:43] <sebest_> would it be possible to give access to some part of /etc/ selectively
[01:44] <sebest_> eg not allow someone to alter apache config, and another one postfix
[01:44] <fabbione> sebest_: that's a bzr feature we are missing
[01:44] <fabbione> nested trees...
[01:44] <fabbione> basically bzr archives inside bzr archives
[01:44] <fabbione> you achive that possibility once there are nested trees and you can block access via normal unix permissions
[01:45] <sebest_> hum, is it a planned feature?
[01:45] <fabbione> yes
[01:45] <fabbione> but there is no ETA on it yet
[01:45] <spike> mmmh, doesnt svn gives you ability to restrict access to subdir, does it? I seem to recall such thing
[01:45] <fabbione> plus we need to consider that we need to use a stable version of bzr
[01:46] <fabbione> spike: not that i know of
[01:46] <spike> fabbione: I'll check that out
[01:46] <fabbione> and in any case svn has the problems that it requires a running server
[01:46] <fabbione> bzr doesn't
[01:46] <sebest_> a running server?
[01:46] <fabbione> well you need to setup the server side of svn
[01:46] <sebest_> you mean for remote access?
[01:46] <fabbione> even the local db
[01:46] <sebest_> no
[01:46] <sebest_> svn admin create toto
[01:47] <sebest_> svn co file://path/toto
[01:47] <fabbione> sebest_: but than you lose other features
[01:47] <sebest_> ah maybe, i don't know
[01:47] <fabbione> like the possibility to cherry pick from server to another
[01:47] <sebest_> i know that i use it without server
[01:47] <sebest_> i use it over ssh
[01:47] <spike> cherry pick?
[01:47] <fabbione> i admin that my svn experience is client side only
[01:48] <fabbione> spike: yes.. never done cherry picking?
[01:48] <spike> ssh has restrictions, principally no virtual users
[01:49] <spike> fabbione: oh, ok, just googled the term. no, I havent, never had the need
[01:49] <sebest_> i know that svn can have lock problem when using db format
[01:50] <sebest_> it's better to use ffs
[01:50] <fabbione> ok
[01:50] <fabbione> but we are not going on svn.. i can tell you that from now
[01:50] <sebest_> i know nearly nothing about bzr yet
[01:50] <spike> sebest_: fsfs solves that
[01:50] <spike> yep
[01:50] <fabbione> plus you need to keep in mind one thing
[01:51] <fabbione> this miniRCS thingy
[01:51] <sebest_> but i'm ok with any RCS system as long as it fullfill our need :)
[01:51] <fabbione> is meant to be used only for "recovery"
[01:51] <fabbione> it's not something you are going to use regularly to do your development
[01:51] <fabbione> think about it like a daily backup
[01:51] <fabbione> except a bit more powerful :)
[01:52] <sebest_> the advantages that i saw what the loggin stuff (each admin, can write a message about why he made a change)
[01:52] <spike> well,once u've it up it should be up to u to use it whatever u want it for, no? I don't see why designing something like an RCS system restricted to "recover"
[01:52] <sebest_> so it's easier to trace wrong change
[01:52] <fabbione> sebest_: you don't lose that
[01:52] <sebest_> and also easier to have many admins working on the same server
[01:52] <fabbione> sebest_: the cron is there only if changes are done and you forget to commit
[01:52] <fabbione> if there are no changes, there is no commit
[01:52] <sebest_> fabbione, yes i got it :)
[01:52] <spike> fabbione: btw, why bzr?
[01:53] <fabbione> spike: it's distributed, doesn't require a central db/server and we support it directly :)
[01:53] <spike> and, do you think the infrastructure will be modularized enough so one can replace bzr with something else?
[01:53] <fabbione> possibly yes
[01:53] <fabbione> i didn't get to write that code yet
[01:54] <spike> because, now that u mentioned changes and multiple admin, I'm working on stuff to wrap things like that in a ticketing system, trac like, because that's what you relly want to large enterprise imho
[01:54] <spike> and svn is nicely integrated with trac, so to me, bzr is a problem from that POV
[01:54] <fabbione> spike: svn is not distributed and that gives me tons of other problems
[01:55] <fabbione> spike: i can write it modular.. you can write the svn plugins
[01:55] <fabbione> but i am not going to invest time on RCS != bzr
[01:55] <spike> fabbione: whatever, guess the spec should just allow switching. I never had a prob with it, I guess because mine and yours requirements are different
[01:56] <spike> fabbione: that's perfect for me, I'll invest time to support svn, I'd just like the specs to allow me to do so
[01:56] <fabbione> spike: as it is they don't.. but that's a code design issue
[01:56] <fabbione> spike: there is no need for the specs to be modified
[01:56] <fabbione> i can just do that at code level
[01:56] <fabbione> and allow a certain level of modularization
[01:57] <spike> fabbione: ok, "specs" was just a name for it,whereever you wanna do it, I'm fine with it
[01:57] <fabbione> spike: so am i :)
[01:58] <spike> fabbione: do you mind an OT question? are you familiar with telecom interbusiness router issues when it comes to additional subnets?
[01:58] <fabbione> spike: telecom italia?
[01:58] <spike> imho they do something really nasty here, but they have exclusive access to the router, and I'm not sure how to convince them they have to reconfigure it
[01:58] <spike> fabbione: yes
[01:59] <fabbione> spike: no sorry
[01:59] <fabbione> i don't live in italy
[01:59] <fabbione> and i did stop working for seabone a loooooong time ago
[01:59] <spike> good for you :), actually not either I will anymore in a month :D
[02:06] <sebest_> fabbione, what kind of help do  you need for the server related stuff on ubuntu?
[02:08] <sebest_> personnality i've interest in the SBS stuff
[02:09] <sebest_> this may be a particular use case of the server project
[02:10] <fabbione> sebest_: it depends what you can do
[02:10] <sebest_> i go eating, we'll discuss this later
[02:11] <fabbione> i might not be around later
[02:11] <fabbione> but ok
[02:11] <fabbione> enjoy your lunch
[02:11] <sebest_> i can do a lot things ;) (skills in admin, packaging and programming C/php/python)
[02:11] <spike> php isnt really programming :P
[02:11] <spike> :D
[02:11] <sebest_> that's why i added pythoon ;)
[02:12] <sebest_> brb
[02:19] <Valandil> hi all :-)
[03:28] <sebest_> re
[04:31] <spike> re