=== MichaleR [n=mikeraz@eye.patch.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:08] anybody home? === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-159-45.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=ubuntu@Toronto-HSE-ppp3714657.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:48] where i can download the UbuntuPackagingGuide sources ? [12:49] it is in the doc-team svn repository [12:49] sure? i don't see it [12:49] where exactly ? [12:49] generic [12:50] found , thx [12:50] are you interested in it? [12:50] yes, i want to correct some errors in it [12:51] cool, I just got it in not long ago, it needs quite a bit of work [12:53] LaserJock, [12:54] yeah? [12:54] Do you know if anyone is working on the DNS section of the server guide? [12:54] I'm not an expert in packaging, but i use it to learn now, so when I see ambiguous commands, i correct them [12:54] theCore: that's good. I just started packaging not long ago [12:56] MichaleR: hmm, I'm not sure. Haven't heard of anybody recently but I think the server guide has lot's of areas to work on. Usually I think they commits are fairly small so by watching ubuntu-doc-commit ML you can figure out where people are working [12:57] theCore: what was the ambiguous command you found? [12:57] OK, thanks. [12:58] MichaleR: I think that is why it's generally better to send your patches as they come rather than waiting until you are finished with everything before sending them. [12:59] I was checking on the status before even starting. Good point though. [12:59] I have an upgrade going bad on me today. [01:00] MichaleR: dapper? [01:01] No, hoary to breezy [01:01] gconf2 replacement is getting hung up in trying to write a file. [01:01] LaserJock: I wanted to start a "doc gluing project", not a long time ago, but when I saw the quality of the documentation in ubuntu, I gave up the project to help the docteam [01:02] "doc gluing project"? [01:02] yep [01:03] meaning? [01:03] i was trying to centralize the scattered doc around the web to make a big linux tutorial for newbies [01:04] MichaleR: Hoary? hmm, I haven't done Hoary since this about August ;-) [01:04] I"m trying not to. [01:04] :) [01:05] It's my main dns/mail/web/database/ntp/dhcp/____ server [01:07] theCore: one problem I'm having is that the scattered docs around the web have different licenses [01:07] MichaleR: well I understand in that case :-) [01:08] nothing is broken at this point. Now to figure out the work around. [01:10] theCore: so overall are there any major changes to the Packaging Guide that you would like to make? [01:11] LaserJock, no, just some minor corrections [01:13] theCore: cool, go for it [01:16] http://pastebin.ubuntulinux.nl/5360 [01:16] can you patch the file for me? [01:18] theCore: unfortunately I don't have commit access yet (hopefully next week). Send it to the doc-team ML. [01:18] okay [01:18] hmm, why aptitude? [01:19] easier to use, and it's more robust [01:20] hmm, but it isn't installed by default is it? [01:20] it's install by default [01:20] And the preview mode allows you to work out conflicts and dependencies [01:20] << using it right now [01:20] http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg00104.html <<<< 7 reasons for aptitude [01:21] well, I'm not against aptitude. I use it myself and know why, but I'm not sure about requiring everybody else use it [01:24] LaserJock, pong [01:24] apt-get is kinda obsolete to me [01:24] mdke: did you see mpt's post just now? [01:24] nope [01:24] just got in [01:24] mdke: you might want to [01:25] mdke, hello, your the guys who helped yesterday to patch a doc [01:25] isn't it ? [01:25] theCore, that's right, thanks for the contribution [01:25] LaserJock, ok [01:25] about what? [01:26] i have another one: http://pastebin.ubuntulinux.nl/5360 can you add it ? [01:26] theCore, please mail the patch to the list, like last time :) [01:26] theCore, that way, someone will apply it: it's late for me here and I'm about to go to bed [01:27] mdke: packaging guide license problems [01:27] bah [01:27] overreacting [01:28] theCore: I also am not sure about the -en part. [01:29] LaserJock, my view is that all the _existing_ contributions to the wiki were made without retaining copyright [01:29] it's a goddam wiki [01:29] LaserJock: i tested it [01:29] i'm pretty sure there is an implied renunciation of copyright by posting to a collaborative area like that [01:29] mdke - It's not late, it's early. Welcome to Sunday. [01:29] MichaleR, :) [01:30] LaserJock, the discussion is a total overreaction in my view, it's not nearly such a big deal [01:31] mdke: I was planning on redoing the pbuilder and chroot parts (which are the parts from the wiki) anyway so maybe I can skirt the problem that way. [01:32] LaserJock, sure, or contact the authors and ask, if you're actually worried about it [01:32] i mean the idea is just ridiculous [01:32] what are they gonna sue you for? [01:32] have you made much profit out of the packaging guide? [01:32] although one could make the argument that this is a derivative of Unfrgiven's Intro Developer Doc and that was GPL'd incorrectly because of the wiki part [01:32] have you reduced their profits? [01:32] mdke: lol, no [01:33] but I think that the point is acknowledgment of others work [01:33] just add the name the author in the contributors list [01:34] LaserJock, sure, but my point is, even if you're infringing (which you're not because they impliedly renounced all rights in the material by posting it to the wiki), they have not suffered a loss by the infringement, so it would be a waste of time suing you [01:34] s/you/us [01:34] and a waste of money [01:34] yeah [01:34] we won't because I'll be our lawyer for free [01:35] :) [01:35] :D [01:35] well there are a total of 16 authors for the parts that we have [01:35] LaserJock, do you want to handle theCore's patch on the packaging guide, and maybe merge it into your local copy? [01:35] then send a patch? [01:35] mdke: well we need to talk about it. I actually disagree a little bit about these changes [01:36] ah ok, you guys handle it [01:36] what the problem ? [01:37] theCore: well I'm still not convinced of aptitude and I think that debian-reference-en is too specific [01:37] I'm not opposed but I'm just not sure yet [01:37] LaserJock: i though adding a note for debian-reference [01:39] but isn't debian-reference easier on the reader than a note? [01:40] the only negative I see is that they get 9 other languages too by installing debian-reference [01:40] LaserJock: for aptitude, i tried using the command with apt-get a it didn't worked, so i tried with aptitude and it worked w/o a problem [01:40] theCore: what was the apt-get problem [01:41] LaserJock: debian-reference isn't a pkg [01:41] LaserJock: sorry your right [01:42] debian-reference is a pkg [01:42] theCore: for me it installs debian-reference-en [01:42] The following NEW packages will be installed: [01:42] debian-reference debian-reference-common debian-reference-de [01:42] debian-reference-en debian-reference-es debian-reference-fr [01:42] debian-reference-it debian-reference-ja debian-reference-pl [01:42] debian-reference-pt-br debian-reference-zh-cn debian-reference-zh-tw [01:42] those are the pkg install with debian-reference [01:42] theCore: all of them or just -en? [01:42] all [01:43] with apt-get I just get -en [01:43] use aptitude === manicka [n=manicka@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:43] well, sure with aptitude you will get all of them [01:44] debian-reference debian-reference-common would come to miss if you install just -en ... hmm [01:45] debian-reference-common would be installed with -en [01:45] the whole package is 25.3MB [01:45] ok [01:46] but I don't know why apt-get debian-reference would be wrong [01:47] i think it's because apt-get don't make the proper dep [01:48] but i'm not about that ... [01:48] apt-get just doesn't install Recommends by default but it does the deps ok [01:49] ah ok [01:49] so? aptitude or apt-get ? [01:50] debian-reference or -en ? [01:50] hmm, well the target audience is experienced Ubuntu users so I think they should be able to decide what they want to use between apt-get and aptitude [01:52] maybe putting aptitude as a recomendation [01:52] well, debian-reference is essentially the same as -en except for if you use aptitude you will get everything [01:53] theCore: the only thing is that I feel that apt-get is more universal and if people use aptitude they know that they will just replace apt-get with aptitude [01:54] if we find precedent for using aptitude then I suppose it is ok, but whatever we do we will need to be consistent throughout [01:54] yeah, i heard about those people who are going around and scaring users out of aptitude [01:54] theCore: personally I would use synaptic so I don't care [01:55] LaserJock, synaptic is just somehow heavy to load [01:55] asking the devs would seem sensible [01:56] mdke: yeah but that is like asking vim or emacs :-) [01:56] mdke: good idea [01:56] lol [01:57] I think it might be wise to be consistent with other docs [01:57] LaserJock, you'll get an authoritative answer i reckon [01:59] LaserJock, i was going to ask in the Motu :( [01:59] theCore: sorry [01:59] lol, n/w [02:02] ask on -devel [02:02] mailing list [02:03] mdke: oh I don't think I want to do that. I want to get membership on Tuesday [02:03] ? [02:04] sounds like a good way to get in trouble ;-) [02:04] i will ask [02:04] theCore: basically on -motu they are saying that aptitude -R might be best [02:04] nah, it's not [02:05] well, let's not go overboard on this. So far we are talking about 1 line [02:18] LaserJock - OK thanks LJ === wjb [n=warren@c220-237-178-175.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:24] so ? what we do ? [02:25] theCore: I think we will remove the apt-get line [02:26] infinity has a good point [02:26] theCore: it might be better to just tell them to install that are needed for each section [02:26] that true [02:28] but feel we should keep some commands ... so the reader have some examples on how working === minghua [n=minghua@69-153-139-23.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:29] hi [02:29] hello [02:29] hi, finding typos for the PackagingGuide [02:29] Hi LaserJock and theCore [02:29] minghua: in what sections? [02:30] ch. 1, the 2nd line from bottom, extra "imple answer is ... complex" [02:30] right, known bug ;-) [02:30] ... [02:30] and not easily fixable? [02:31] well, it will be as soon as i have a second and I send a patch to mdke [02:32] minghua: although there is some delay between the svn repo and doc.ubuntu.com so it might be fixed alread [02:32] y [02:33] "The concepts in the document are backed up with examples so that readers may participate" <<<< that a reason why we should keep the install commands [02:34] have you guys looked at packages hello-dbs and hello-debhelper? [02:34] theCore: I think that maybe we should do them as needed and say " First, install ..." that way we aren't telling them how to install and they should only have to do a few at a time [02:34] I found those after I learned packaging (mostly from NM guide and debhelper documentation) [02:34] so I didn't bother reading carefully [02:35] but it would make nice examples for new potential packagers, I suppose [02:35] and maybe write a hello-cdbs yourself? ;-) [02:35] LaserJock: your probably right, so i will stop bothering you we this ;) [02:35] minghua: sweet, I've been looking for something like that [02:35] theCore: this has been a great conversation and we got the -devel guys talking about it so that is good [02:36] mdke, where do you get the idea that posting to a wiki renounces copyright? [02:36] That would be very helpful if it was true [02:36] yeah theCore i'm glad to see you getting involved :) [02:36] mpt, just writing an email about it now. Btw thanks for the feedback on the licensing spec, that is really helpful [02:37] LaserJock: oh, and the package hello as well, its also a example for packaging [02:37] minghua: right, saw that, thanks so much [02:40] mdke, thx, btw i'm not even english speaker, i'm a french so if you feel my english is kinda sloppy, tell me because i really want to get ride of those poor errors ... [02:40] theCore, np! [02:41] theCore, we all make errors [02:41] they get picked up when people read over the docs, like minghua is doing :) [02:41] mdke: me even more [02:41] not a problem, we'll read through the docs a lot [02:42] mdke: you speak italian, doesn't it ? [02:43] theCore, yeah [02:43] not as a first language though [02:43] am I reading ch. 2 correctly that you are claiming gcc depends on autoconf? [02:43] that's just a recommends [02:43] nice, i wish i could ... i'm half italian and i doesn't even speak a word [02:44] mdke, who if anyone is working on trying to fix the ubuntuguide.org situation? [02:45] minghua: I assume that you are talking about the diagram [02:45] LaserJock: yes [02:46] minghua: I didn't do the figure and I'm not much of a fan of it. [02:46] mpt, i posted several times in the forums, it is a no go situation. ubuntuguide.org is dead now because the author is ill. but a new resource has sprung up, which is being maintained by a group I believe [02:46] I actually like the idea of the figure [02:46] mdke, what do the forums have to do with it? [02:46] mpt, a lot [02:47] but the dependency is probably more complicated than it's currently shown as [02:47] mpt, the ubuntuguide.org came to be associated directly with the forums, and was coordinated there. Ditto the new resource [02:47] oh, ok [02:47] mpt, i'll find the url to some classic threads [02:47] mdke, I just tried, and ubuntuguide.org is not dead [02:47] mpt, dead as in unmaintained [02:48] unfortunately they are not at all the same thing :-) [02:48] It's going to get steadily more confusing and frustrating as it gets more out of date [02:48] minghua: they problem with the figure to me is that somebody has to redo it every time there is a mistake, etc. [02:48] mpt, but bottom line is: we can't stop community members from making their own websites. We can try to convince them to muck in with us (and I really have!) but we can't force them [02:48] LaserJock: i can remake the figure [02:48] mpt, with regard to that specific url, we can maybe approach chua and ask for a redirect or something [02:48] That's why I said "the ubuntuguide.org situation" as opposed to "the Ubuntu Guide situation" [02:48] LaserJock: oh it's not auto-generated? that must be a PITA... [02:49] minghua: I think it was a one time deal but maybe not [02:49] minghua: I don't have access to that though, the original author did it [02:50] mpt, ah yeah [02:50] mdke, right, I was wondering if anyone had done that already [02:50] mpt, not to my knowledge, I actually don't know how ill he is, I'm happy to try [02:50] that would be excellent mdke, thanks [02:53] and I realize we can't stop community members from making their own Web sites, even misleading ones, but this one is a special case because of the combination of its popularity and its decay of appropriateness [02:54] mpt, yeah you're right [02:55] minghua: do you know how to make auto-generated image ? [02:56] theCore: no. I make most of my images with gnuplot, not your type of diagrams [02:58] i think Dia would make the job [03:00] minghua: what do want I correct in the diagram ? [03:00] minghua: lol, me too [03:01] theCore: If your diagram is about Depends:, then gcc only recommends autoconf [03:01] theCore: if it's about Recommends: as well, then gcc recommends a lot more stuff like automake1.9 [03:03] LaserJock: well, we are both in MOTUScience for a reason :-) [03:03] minghua: that's right [03:03] minghua: so? do i include the recommmends ? [03:04] theCore: Err... I'm not so sure. I haven't exactly what the diagram is trying to do yet [03:06] theCore: if it's for "what you need to install if you want certain packages mentioned above", then probably you need to list autoconf parrallel with gcc, since not everyone uses aptitude (but that's another point you are discussing, I suppose) [03:07] theCore: and maybe list automake as well since it's mentioned above [03:07] but IMHO autoconf/automake is definitely too much for a beginner packager [03:12] hmm, I think that section might need some retooling. Maybe it should be an appendix or something [03:13] I think having an overview off the tools that packagers use is good but maybe it is too much to start with [03:19] remaking is quite easy [03:19] remaking the diagram* [03:40] LaserJock / minghua: what do you think ? http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/5363 [03:42] theCore: I like this color/layout better [03:43] minghua: what about the arrows ? are they okay ? [03:44] theCore: looks good, but are you going to put in the next level for pbuilder, build-essential, etc. ? [03:44] theCore: not bad. I have quite poor aesthetical tastes though, so don't count my opinion too much :-) [03:45] LaserJock: yes, i will [03:49] theCore: sweet === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:58] man its hot here today [03:59] rob1: where? [03:59] north qld australia [03:59] rob1: how hot? [04:00] the gnome temp app says 32C [04:00] its the humidity thats the killer [04:03] rob1: that's like 90 F. Pretty warm if it's humid. I live in Reno, NV and it gets to be 105+ but it is very dry so it's not as bad [04:04] apart from the little sink hole where I live its tropical rainforest around here [04:05] you can just sit there and do nothing and still sweat here [04:06] in pbuilder, devscripts and fakeroot are only recommendation too, so do I include them ? [04:07] hi all [04:07] hi Madpilot [04:12] LaserJock? [04:13] anyone here own an iPod and use it in Ubuntu? Feel like writing the iPod section of Common Tasks/Multimedia in the Desktop Guide? [04:13] yeah, just a sec [04:14] :) it doesn't have to be done this minute, I just noticed that all it says in the iPod section is "Write Later" - and I don't own one... [04:15] Madpilot: sorry, I was talking to theCore [04:15] yeah, we are still not sure what we are going to do with the common task, but if you write an ipod section it will be included for sure === theCore fell important ;-) [04:16] LaserJock: ah, nevermind then [04:17] theCore: I think that we need to basically put in a diagram the relationship between all the packages that are listed. It and the apt-get line should agree [04:19] I don't think that we should rely on Recommends because that will only work for people using aptitude [04:19] LaserJock: okay [04:19] ok, I [04:20] will be back in a sec. I'm on Windows and I installed a program so of course I have to reboot >:( === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-159-45.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === Kingbahamut [n=bahamut@c-24-98-229-28.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:32] minghua: what do think of this one : minghua [04:33] http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/i5364 [04:34] theCore: I like the idea of using dashed lines for recommends [04:34] minghua: what should i add ? [04:34] theCore: you probably can drop the "| libc-dev" part though === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-159-45.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:35] minghua: done [04:36] theCore: I can't say, as I don't really know how this diagram would be integrated with the guide [04:36] theCore: and I don't know enough about the guide either [04:36] minghua: me too ... [04:36] theCore: what do you need? [04:36] http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/i5364 [04:38] LaserJock: so? [04:38] cool, gimme a sec [04:42] speaking of ipods before, is there a way of running itunes on linux that doesn't require me spending any money on crossover office? [04:43] theCore: how hard was that to make? [04:43] LaserJock: it was quite easy [04:43] theCore: did you use dia? [04:43] LaserJock: yes [04:44] LaserJock: i was a graphic designer before i got into linux [04:44] LaserJock: so i know how to use those tools === skoo [n=hemee@218.249.160.194] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:47] hi, all [04:47] hi skoo [04:47] ^_^ [04:47] not many people alive here, hehe [04:48] sometimes there is [04:48] hmm, where r u, now? [04:48] LaserJock: do you want the source code ? [04:48] why I'm sitting at a computer somewhere [04:49] hehe, but I mean where are you from? [04:49] australia [04:50] wow, what's the time there? [04:50] 2pm [04:50] depending on where you are [04:50] China [04:50] just 12am [04:51] didn't have my lunch [04:51] god, why is it so hard to buy mp3s in this country using this operating system? [04:52] It is so in China [04:52] But I go the mp3 Market [04:52] theCore: can you send me an email? [04:52] LaserJock: sure [04:53] You have lots of choice there [04:53] pp me your address === rob1 [n=rob@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === skoo [n=hemee@218.249.160.194] has left #ubuntu-doc [""] [04:59] LaserJock: good luck on the packaging guide project === minghua [n=minghua@69-153-139-23.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [04:59] LaserJock: a Makefile for the packaging guide would be useful [05:00] theCore: what do you mean? [05:01] LaserJock: to build the html version of the guide [05:01] theCore: there already is [05:01] LaserJock: really ? [05:01] LaserJock: where ? [05:01] in the generic folder [05:02] ah, sorry [05:02] it's doesn't work .. [05:03] just a sec [05:04] mdke: ping? [05:06] whats going on? [05:06] well, the make for the packaging guide is gone === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:07] I think it might be because of the license thing [05:08] well, i will use yelp for testing [05:12] How come we haven't gotten any emails from ubuntu-doc-commits lately? [05:14] no one has been committing probably [05:15] well we are at 2189 but my last email was 2174 [05:15] 2180 I mean [05:15] dunno [05:16] same here [05:16] how do you get the changes for a file in svn? [05:16] svn diff [05:16] between revisions [05:17] svn diff [05:17] svn up [05:17] svn diff -r revisionnumber [05:18] svn diff -r revisionnumber:otherrevisionnumber [05:20] very cool [05:36] well, I can't figure out what happened [05:36] LaserJock: chapter 3 commands don't work [05:38] theCore: where? [05:39] sudo echo mychroot /var/chroot >> /etc/dchroot.conf <<< don't work : i needed to enter a root login with 'sudo -s' [05:39] sudo debootstrap variant=buildd breezy /var/chroot/ http://archive.Ubuntu.com/Ubuntu/ <<< don't work neither [05:46] i feel we will need to rebuild chapter 3 [05:48] theCore: for sure [05:50] LaserJock: i'm going to read the DNMG i need to learn more on pkg building before making more change into the guide [05:51] s/on/about/ [05:51] theCore: fine. I am still trying to figure out where we should go with this so it is pretty fluid at this point [05:56] LaserJock: it will be a tough job ubuntuize the DNMG [05:58] theCore: well, I don't would to do more than just ubuntuize the DNMG [05:58] theCore: sorry that sentence was terrible [06:00] theCore: I think it would be good to not just Ubuntuize the DNMG [06:00] ahh [06:02] sure, i don't want to just remake the DNMG into UNMG [06:06] http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ch-start.en.html <<< this page is quite similiar to our guide [06:07] LaserJock: it look like copy and paste to me [06:11] theCore: exactly === manicka [n=grant@203-158-39-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:17] LaserJock: i think we can complete the guide for dapper release [06:17] I sure hope so ;-) [06:18] that my objective === uniq [n=frode@213.184.199.55] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:19] i have 6 months without school, so... i gonna work on this === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-27-207.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:32] theCore: ok, I need to go but I'm glad you are interested in the packaging guide, especially that figure. It would be nice to do some more graphics. Not sure where yet. === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@cpe-69-205-38-37.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:32] LaserJock, thx, cya [06:33] theCore: btw I think on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook there are commands to use xsltproc to convert the XML into HTML [06:33] good night everybody [06:33] check out the make file in ubuntu/ [06:34] its all in there [06:35] rob1: your right, I thought it was in generic/ [06:36] theCore: there you go. In ubuntu/ do "make package" to get it [06:36] ah ! thanks === LaserJock [n=LaserJoc@ppp-69-239-159-45.dsl.renocs.pacbell.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] [06:43] gotta too, cya later everybody [06:43] bye [06:59] hmm.. I'm not really liking the new format of common-tasks.xml === Kamping_Kaiser [n=Kaiser@ppp227-11.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob1 [n=rob@ubuntu/member/rob1] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-27-207.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:21] rob1: what should we think about changing in common tasks? [08:22] I was thinking of moving the Serpentine section to the Multimedia area... [08:22] I'm about to commit some stuff [08:22] OK [08:25] ok done, check that out [08:25] bbs [08:38] :) [08:40]