/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2005/12/10/#ubuntu-devel.txt

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Kamionkbrooks: it's in multiverse because you generally can't actually use it without non-free ROMs, i.e. the same reason that it's in Debian contrib. See zsnes/debian/README.Debian.12:04
kbrooksKamion, but its licensed under the GNU GPL12:04
Kamionyes, but main+universe is supposed to be closed under dependency; that is, if you can't use software there to any significant degree without requiring non-free software, it doesn't go in main/universe.12:05
KamionDebian's contrib and non-free sections map to restricted/multiverse unless we explicitly override that due to differing licensing policies, and this isn't one of the areas where our licensing policy differs from Debian's. Sorry.12:06
KamionSee http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-contrib, relevantly "free packages which require contrib, non-free packages or packages which are not in our archive at all for compilation or execution"12:07
elmoKamion: got a sec?  I'm trying to figure out why breezy is uninstallable (sic); aptitude -o debug::pkgproblemresolver=true isn't being helpful - is there another magic switch for aptitude?12:10
Kamionthat's the only one I know of ... let me see if I can zen it out12:11
elmoKamion: the base cause is that libesd-alsa0 is now in ubuntu-desktop; it always should have been, but wasn't due to bugs in the dak setup12:12
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Kamionhuh, so there were bugs other than the cron.sync Task screwup? (which shouldn't have affected ubuntu-desktop)12:13
elmoKamion: this particular bug was that I assumed apt-ftparchive would automatically concatenate multiple Task entries in the extra file - it doesn't tho12:14
Kamionoh, ok12:14
elmoKamion: so stuff was never getting into multiple tasks, in breezy pre-my-changes, libesd-alsa0 was only in edubuntu-desktop12:15
elmonow it's in edubuntu-desktop _and_ ubuntu-desktop12:15
Kamionugh, amazing netboot worked at all12:15
elmoKamion: for ref ~jackass/katie/backup/pre-fixes/ might be useful12:15
elmo[err jackass:~katie/ obviously, but you knew that] 12:16
elmoKamion: yes :(12:16
elmoI don't think netboot did work in !server mode for much of anything12:16
elmoor I'm amazed if it did12:16
Kamionunless aptitude's just blatantly ignoring |-ed deps ...12:16
Kamionhmm, libasound2 isn't in ubuntu-desktop, wonder why12:17
Kamionoh, it's in minimal, ok12:18
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elmoerr, in breezy?12:20
Kamionyeah12:20
elmooh, indirectly12:20
\shgrr..good morning...12:21
Kamionelmo: try -o Aptitude::CmdLine::Resolver-Debug=true12:22
Kamionaptitude has its own problem resolver, I think12:22
elmohmm, no dice12:23
elmousing pkgproblemresolver does give me more info, justnot enough and not the usual apt spew12:23
Kamionok, can I reproduce this with a debootstrap?12:24
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elmoKamion: yes, I did it in a --variant=buildd chroot12:24
elmoand then 'aptitude install "~tubuntu-standard|~tubuntu-desktop"'12:25
elmo(after installing aptitude)12:25
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kbrooksWhen are the "beta" (e.g. flight) cds released? when the distro is stable12:39
kbrooks?12:39
Kamionkbrooks: that plus when I have time to do it12:40
kbrooksKamion, huh?12:40
Kamion(BTW, we're going to be calling the previously-so-called "Preview" release "Beta" from now on)12:40
Kamion("alpha" is a better description of the Flight CD releases)12:40
kbrooksKamion, ok, s/alpha/beta/12:40
kbrookswhy are the cd releases named flight?12:40
Kamionkbrooks: Flight CD releases require manual QA and usually fixups from someone, and that someone is usually me12:41
kbrookser, beta alpha12:41
Kamionkbrooks: collective noun for both dragons and ducks (i.e. Drake)12:41
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bmontyelmo: please sync lmodern from debian unstable, overriding ubuntu changes is OK12:41
kbrookswhat is "tubuntu"12:42
kbrooks?12:42
Kamionnothing12:42
Kamion~t is part of an aptitude pattern12:42
kbrooksah 12:42
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Kamionelmo: ah, that aptitude option is new in dapper's aptitude, arse12:45
kbrooksarse?12:47
kbrooks:)12:47
Kamionkbrooks: ok, explaining everything I say to somebody else is getting kind of old now :)12:47
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Kamionelmo: (BTW you want --without-recommends to match the installer, not that it makes any difference)12:48
elmoKamion: ah, ok12:49
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Kamionelmo: hmm, even more bizarrely, it seems to be quite happy for me to install the ubuntu-desktop task from the UI12:56
elmough01:00
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elmooh, ok, so if I do:01:05
Kamiondifferences between what installing ubuntu-desktop wants to install and the list in Task: ubuntu-desktop:01:05
Kamion+apmd01:05
elmo apt-get install $(apt-cache dumpavail | grep-dctrl -FTask -sPackage ubuntu-desktop | cut -d: -f 2)01:05
Kamion+laptop-mode01:05
Kamion+libqthreads-1201:05
Kamion-mysql-common-4.101:05
Kamion+mysql-common01:05
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Kamionnot clear to me that any of that is relevant01:06
Kamion(dude, grep-dctrl -n)01:06
daniels_mobilemdz: don't happen to know if LAX has any wireless?01:06
\shdaniels_mobile: whereever .nu is...but give us back xvfb-run :)01:07
daniels_mobileStuck here for another 7 hours but no frigging networks I can see.01:07
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Kamionelmo: hmm, I guess the mysql-common thing isn't helping01:08
elmodaniels_mobile: http://www.jiwire.com/browse-hotspot-airport-united-states-us-california-ca-los-angeles-17239.htm01:09
Kamionelmo: ugh, look at the dependencies of libmysqlclient12 and libmysqlclient1401:09
KamionI bet those are confusing matters something rotten01:10
daniels_mobileelmo: thanks. Any executive summary? Can't get big pages on my phone. In the Bradley international terminal, pre-security.01:10
elmodaniels_mobile: it claims there is one, but doesn't given any useful info, it looks like a bit of a lame site tho01:11
daniels_mobileOkay, thanks. I'll do some more wandering.01:11
elmoit's meant to be a "Boingo" network, and the map is useless01:11
elmochrist, these deps are a mess01:12
Kamionelmo: we explicitly seeded mysql-common in the breezy server seed to avoid a similar problem01:12
Kamionelmo: I'm wondering if LALALAYOUDIDN'THEARTHIS demoting mysql-common-4.1 to breezy/universe LALALA would help01:13
elmoI'm wondering if we shouldn't just put the old Packages files back01:14
KamionI think it would, actually01:14
elmoand declare that gina/soyuz/lp doesn't get to generate the indices files for a released suite01:14
Kamionthe old indices files *were* fucked in other ways though ...01:14
elmowell at least netboot for ubuntu worked with the old ones :P01:15
elmobut yeah, I guess01:15
elmough01:15
Kamionhow about tomorrow I set up a fake archive with my proposed change and see if it works?01:15
elmothis still doesn't explain libesd0 tho?01:15
KamionI suspect aptitude may be running into the mysql thing and giving up01:16
elmoah01:16
Kamiononce stuff is broken apt* can be a lot less willing to fix other things01:16
Kamionworth noting that the released CD images include libesd-alsa0 and mysql-common, but not libesd0 or mysql-common-4.101:16
Kamionwhich at least gives us a guide to what we're supposed to be installing01:17
elmowell, except kubuntu must have libesd0, but yeah01:17
Kamionright, yeah, sorry, just referring to Ubuntu here01:17
KamionI note that Task: kubuntu-desktop in the new Packages files manages to include both mysql-common and mysql-common-4.101:18
elmo*sob*01:18
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elmotho, if we demote mysql-common-4.1, that should stop that?01:19
Kamionshould do ...01:19
KamionI'd probably want to rerun germinate against faked-up Packages files and check out the differences01:19
Kamionexplicit seeding would help kubuntu but I don't see how it could help ubuntu/edubuntu01:20
Kamion(of mysql-common)01:20
Kamionthe other option I can think of is an updated ubuntu-desktop binary, but that's possibly even more horrible than a demotion01:21
Kamionsince it would have to go in breezy, not breezy-updates, and VOMIT01:21
elmobreezy-updates is on by default tho, right?01:23
elmoor is it still too late?01:24
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Kamionhm, you're right01:24
Kamionok, that's theoretically an option01:25
Kamionhmm, removing mysql-common-4.1 from my local apt-cached Packages file doesn't fix the libesd0 thing01:26
elmocan you remove stuff from the Packages file in apt?01:27
Kamionoh, smeg, smeg, smeg01:27
elmowhat about thebinary cache?01:28
Kamionyou know, having our main distribution be a substring of our derivative distributions really wasn't a good idea01:28
elmooh, you're kidding?01:28
Kamion(a) in your grep above, "ubuntu-desktop" matches "kubuntu-desktop" and "edubuntu-desktop"01:28
Kamion(b) in the aptitude pattern encoded into the breezy installer, the same applies01:28
Kamionheaddesk01:29
elmoARGH01:29
elmoyeah, confirmed01:30
Kamion(yes, it seems you can go in and edit the cached Packages file; I edited Release too for good measure, although it didn't seem to care that I hadn't changed Release.gpg - apparently it only validates that on update)01:31
elmoaptitude install "~t^ubuntu-desktop" works01:31
Kamionbut that won't install the right thing, unless you arrange for "ubuntu-desktop" always to come first in the Task lines01:31
elmooh, is that how the ~t thing works?  eww01:31
elmo3 packages upgraded, 910 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.01:31
Kamionalthough it'll probably be relatively close because the ubuntu-desktop binary is only in Task: ubuntu-desktop01:31
elmodoesn't look too far out?01:31
Kamionso that'll pull in the rest01:32
elmoah01:32
Kamionoh, god, I have no clue how to solve this at 12:30 in the morning01:32
elmodon't worry about it, it's been broken for a while, there's no rush01:32
Kamionyes, reverting to the old Packages files seems like the only sane thing to do right now01:32
elmo(since Nov 23rd, to be exact)01:32
danielschrist, what a uselessly broken hotspot01:33
Kamionand maybe, if we have to, providing shadow Packages files somewhere unofficial where people can point Kubuntu or Edubuntu netboot installs01:33
danielsit's down in the checkin area, where the food and powerpoints aren't, and it's munted for seven minutes out of every ten01:33
kbrooksIs ubuntu *itself* licensed?01:33
Kamionalthough they'd have to be signed with the archive key which is, er, kinda awkward01:33
daniels\sh: you do know I've been on holiday all last week, right?01:33
elmoremind me why we don't just do apt-get install ubuntu-desktop for netboots?01:34
kbrooksIs ubuntu *itself* licensed?01:34
elmokbrooks: your question is meaningless and repeating it, doesn't help01:34
\shdaniels: i'm just teasing you...don't take me too serious01:35
kbrookselmo, meaningful question ... ok01:35
Kamionelmo: semi-historical reasons originally, partly that I found the metapackage broke more during development, and nowadays installing the metapackage doesn't clue aptitude in to the fact that it should consider all the dependencies of ubuntu-desktop individually manually installed01:35
kbrookswhy is ubuntu apparently "open source" if ubuntu itself is not placed under a license?01:36
Kamionplease don't troll #ubuntu-devel, thanks01:36
elmoKamion: ugh, right, ok01:36
kbrooksI'm not trolling.01:36
mjg59kbrooks: You have permission to distribute modified or unmodified versions of everything in Ubuntu01:36
mjg59The CD packaging specifies that you have permission to distribute the CD, too01:37
kbrooksOK01:37
KamionI suggest you consult a lawyer if you have specific concerns; most people here do not have legal training and are merely trying to do the best they can01:38
danielsor just ask debian-legal, they rock01:38
kbrooksheh, i'll look in there01:39
kbrooksty01:39
Kamion(although between us we have fairly extensive experience with free software licences)01:39
Kamion(i.e. enough not to generally wildly cock it up, we hope)01:39
Kamionelmo: actually, you were right, apparently aptitude's ~t pattern matches task names individually01:42
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Kamionso '~t^ubuntu-desktop$' should be a viable workaround01:43
Kamionbut unfortunately there's no way to retrofit that into breezy without a base-config upload to breezy, and breezy-updates *wouldn't* cut it in that case01:44
KamionI'll fix my local dapper trees now though01:44
seth_kkbrooks, zsnes updated to 1.42001:44
kbrooksseth_k, ok01:45
seth_kkbrooks, just hit archive so you should be able to apt-get it now01:45
elmoKamion: ugh01:45
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Kamionelmo: I'm off to bed, will look more in the morning01:53
elmoKamion: ok, thanks a lot for looking at it01:53
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Toma-is there any talk of including initng with dapper?03:45
Amaranthnothing major like that for dapper03:49
Amaranthbut initng is a hack03:49
Amaranthi believe the ideal solution is porting sun's stuff03:49
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SEJeffAmaranth: What did sun do?03:50
Amaranthi can't remember but it has real dependency handling and such03:51
SEJeffhttp://lists.debian.org/debian-lsb/2005/08/msg00013.html03:51
Amaranthwhat would be cool is to say "start GDM" and have the init system handle all the dependencies to make that happen03:52
SEJeffThe new lsb has an example for paralell init script execution. That would be the easiest likely03:52
SEJeffYes you're very right03:52
Toma-that would be nice03:52
SEJeffapt-start gdm would be cool03:52
Amaranthhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Management_Facility03:53
Amaranththat's what solaris has03:53
infinityI don't really dig anything that tears out init scripts and starts from sratch.  Perhaps because I like being able to do a slow transition.03:55
infinityAnd I'm not sure I see the point, except to be hip and cool.03:55
Toma-everyone that tries linux says it starts so slow. alot of people like to turn their PC's off alot for some crazy reason03:56
infinityIf we can achieve similar results through a dependency-based sysv-init behave-alike, it's less confusion for people upgrading and wondering WTF happened.03:56
Toma-yeh03:56
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wasabiI really don't fancy having so many scripts sitting around in /etc. No technical reason though. I like Macs launchd or whatever. Just a simple description about what program to run, how to run it, and what to do if it doesn't run.04:24
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uenyiohahey guys04:39
uenyiohaanyone know assembly...?04:40
uenyiohaim trying to increment the value of a register by 804:40
uenyiohai was thinking thinking this was the proper memmonic with gas04:40
danielso/~ this is how I represent over this here beat04:40
uenyiohamov 8(%ebp), %ecx04:40
uenyiohai think i'm a little off....since it appears to be "dereferencing" the register instead04:41
desrtuenyioha; what register?  ecx?04:45
uenyiohadesrt: i think i found what i needed04:45
desrtaddl $8, %ecx   ?04:46
desrt mov 8(%ebp), %ecx  is    mov ecx, [ebp+8] 04:46
uenyiohadesrt: yeah...brain fuzz is a bitch04:46
uenyiohadesrt: yeah....thanks a lot!04:47
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elmowhat's the usual solution to autoconf insisting on libxt-dev's header files to test for X?  just build-depend on it?05:54
infinityLeast resistance is to build-dep on libxt-dev, "correct" solution is to re-autocrapify with a shiny new autoconf that gets it right.05:56
elmohow new?05:57
elmolike, newer than breezy?  because breezy still seems to reference Intrisic.h when you use AC_PATH_XTRA05:58
elmough, holy crap05:59
elmoit appears the "solution" is a debian-specific patch that makes optional arguments to AC_PATH_XTRA so you can tell it to look for something other than libXt06:00
infinityYeah, uhm.  Note I had "correct" in quotation marks above.06:02
infinityI don't think the upstream autotools guys have given a single thought to modular X yet.06:02
infinityOr, if they have, they're not letting us know what they've come up with.06:02
infinityI assume in the end, the old X-related macros will just become deprecated, and we'll get new ones for each library and wire protocol, or something.06:03
elmowell given debian is the de facto upstream for this package, I don't think adding debian specific stuff to configure.in is likely to win me any friends06:04
elmooh well, bogus build-depends it is06:04
elmo  * Remove some ancient debian-specific patches06:09
elmo    - install no longer calls strip with special options06:09
elmogrr06:09
fabbionemorning06:14
infinitycoreutils has been making everyone happy lately, for different reasons.06:14
fabbioneelmo: hey dude06:14
fabbioneelmo: did rt got my mails?06:14
fabbioneelmo: i had no ack back from it06:14
elmofabbione: when/where did you send them?06:15
fabbioneafter i did wake you up on saturday06:15
fabbione:/06:15
elmofabbione: I'll look later today, when I'm working06:15
fabbioneoh ok06:15
fabbionesure06:15
fabbionei tought you were just shifting hours06:15
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pittiGood morning07:17
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fabbionemorning pitti07:20
pittiHi fabbione 07:20
zakamehello pitti :)07:20
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pittidaniels: here?07:27
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HiddenWolfMogge07:40
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dokogood morning08:52
pittiHi doko08:52
dokoseb128: dude, more libcairo fun. change the package name, if you remove symbols :-(08:53
dokohi pitti08:53
dokopitti: what are the names of the new locale packages?08:53
pittidoko: 'locales', just as before08:53
pittidoko: the source package is 'langpack-locales'08:53
dokohmm, and all locales are pregenerated?08:54
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dokopitti: ^^^08:55
pittidoko: no, they aren't08:55
pittidoko: the langpacks itself ship the locales08:55
pppoe_dudeq: is ubuntu sorta like debian unstable or is it better?08:55
pittidoko: and they generate the language-relevant loclaes on installation08:55
pittipppoe_dude: #ubuntu, pleas08:55
pittie08:55
pppoe_dudek bye :)08:55
dokopitti: look, at debian/locale-gen in the gcc-* sources, that currently is broken by the new locales package, and I certainly don't want to build-depend on 15 language packs08:56
mvopitti: I just got a dpkg override problem error from langpack-zh-<something> on upgrade, known issue?08:57
pittimvo: no, it's not; what is the conflict?08:57
pittidoko: uh, gcc needs to generate locales?08:58
infinityFor the testsuite.08:58
infinityA few pckages generate locales during build.08:58
infinity(In the build directory, of course)08:58
pittiI had assumed that test suites would ship their own example locales, hmm08:59
dokopitti: every package which needs locales for the testsuite needs them08:59
dokopitti: but you didn't mention it in the spec ;-P08:59
pittidoko: no, I didn't even think about the possibility of that09:00
dokoplease fix it. kthxbye09:00
pitti'every' can't be that many, though09:00
pittiok, so should there be a locales-all package maybe? 09:01
pittidoko: 'fix'? what's your suggestion?09:01
dokowhich depends on every langpack package?09:01
pittieither gcc could just copy the locale definitions, or we create an -all package09:01
dokohow would this package look like?09:01
pittidoko: no, b-d on all langpacks would be a bit silly09:02
pittidoko: it could ship the locales in /usr/share/locales-all/, or whereever09:02
dokoso the -all package would contain a copy, which is only used as a b-d?09:02
pittidoko: would be an option, yes. no idea whether it makes sense09:02
pittiif it's only gcc, then just copying the locales there would make more sense09:03
pittithen the test suite would be self-containing09:03
dokowell, at least better than build-depending on language packs09:03
mvopitti: hm, sorry. I can't reproduce it anymore. it was language-pack-gnome-zh and/or language-pack-gnome-zh-base during a upgrade09:03
dokopitti: I know locales are tested in gcc, bash, python (and maybe binutils as well).09:04
pittimvo: well, -zh and -zh-base replace each other, so that can't be it09:04
pittimvo: maybe a gnome package coflicted to a non-gnome one?09:04
dokothe thing is, that we'll break things without knowing about it ...09:04
pittidoko: ok, since there seem to be more packages, then having an -all package would seem like a clean solution?09:05
pittidoko: I would build it from langpack-o-matic09:05
pittisince eventually we'll pull locales from rosetta09:05
pittidoko: can you tell the test suites where the definitions are? (path)09:06
dokopitti: please make it compatible with the previous implementation of localedef, so that script have not to be changed09:06
pittidoko: localedef did not change at all09:06
pittidoko: well, it got some belocs enhancements, but localedef only has a default path which wasn't changed09:07
pittidoko: ok, we can make the langpacks Replace: locales-all09:07
pittibut that requires another langpacks upload09:08
dokopitti: sent you the script09:08
fabbionedpkg-shlibdeps: warning: could not find any packages for /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5 (libncurses.so.5)09:08
fabbionedpkg-shlibdeps: warning: unable to find dependency information for shared library libncurses (soname 5, path /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5, dependency field Depends)09:08
fabbionehey guys09:08
fabbioneany idea why i could get that error?09:08
pittidoko: script?09:08
fabbionelibncurses5 is installed09:08
fabbionealso -dev09:09
dokopitti: a script, which many packages use to generate the locales which they need for testing09:10
pittidoko: hm, the script already looks into `pwd`/locales09:14
pittidoko: so the locales just need to be there without changing the sript09:14
dokopitti ... the dir is empty ...09:14
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pittidoko: right, but it means that a quickfix is just to copy the locales there; 12 locales or so are tiny09:15
pittiHi seb128 09:15
seb128hey pitti09:15
dokopitti: that's the wrong fix. touching N packages instead of one.09:15
pittidoko: it's a 'quickfix'09:16
pittidoko: building and uploading 300 new language packs is not a 5-minute fix09:16
dokosome would call it crap ;-P09:16
pittidoko: I would call it 'self-contained test suite' :)09:16
dokopitti: wrong, I'm not supposed to test against my own data, but against the system's data. I don't include the libraries I use, as well.09:17
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dholbachgood morning09:19
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dokoseb128: dude, more libcairo fun. change the package name, if you remove symbols :-(09:19
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seb128doko: I don't remove symbols09:20
seb128doko: Debian do, I've dropped the patch for Ubuntu09:20
seb128hi dholbach09:21
dholbachhey seb128 :)09:21
dokoseb128: then maybe the shlibs dependency needs to be tighened? see siretart's posting on u-d09:21
pittidoko: well, if you truly want to test against what the system has, then b-dep'ing on the langpacks wouldn't even be completely wrong09:21
seb128doko: it lacks any detail to be useful09:22
seb128doko: imho this has nothing to do with cairo, that's the freetype ABI breakage itself09:22
dokopitti: it's not wrong to use the same mechanism to create these locales on build time.09:22
seb128freetype dropped symbols09:22
sivangmorning all09:22
pittidoko: no, it's not, I didn't say that09:22
dokoseb128: ok09:23
dokopitti: so did we agree that we will have a locales-all package?09:23
pittidoko: as I said, if you want I can create a locales-all package, but I'd prefer to ship the locale definitons in a different path09:23
dokopitti: it's ok for me as long as localedef finds this data09:23
pittidoko: you probably need to adapt the path in the script09:24
pittii. e. change LOCDATA09:24
pittierm, LOCPATH09:24
dokopitti: please no. this way we have to change every package.09:24
pittidoko: changing 3 packages seems easier than 300, no?09:25
dokopitti: a) you _know_ these 300 packages b) it's mechanical c) there are more than 3, and they are unknown09:25
pittidoko: ok, I'll talk with jbailey about changing localedef, it could look into an alternative path09:26
dokopitti: ok, I'll file a bug report to keep track of it09:27
pittidoko: that would be nice, yes09:27
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mvoRiddell: in what package is the kdesu binary?09:35
infinitykdebase...09:37
infinity(kdebase-bin for the binary package, I think)09:37
mvothanks09:39
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siretartseb128: /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2: undefined09:42
siretartsymbol: FT_GlyphSlot_Embolden09:42
seb128siretart: freetype symbol09:43
seb128freetype ABI change09:43
seb128cf bug I pointed09:43
siretartseb128: I really don't want to attack you, I just want to really understand whats about this soname magic and how to "bump soname"09:46
seb128siretart: who said you attack anybody?09:46
seb128siretart: if the ABI change it a non-compatible way you have to change the soname09:47
dholbachnormally upstream does that :)09:47
seb128but upstream don't always do this actually09:47
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seb128lu vuntz_09:48
dholbachlintian should check the list of exported symbols on a library upgrade :)09:48
siretartin this case: shouldn't debian do the soname bump?09:48
siretartand how can we do this in the most compatible way?09:48
seb128siretart: changing the soname over upstream is making you binary incompatible with the rest of the world09:48
dholbachsiretart: the bug report and d-d@ has a discussion on this topic09:49
seb128ie: if upstream has .so.0 and ubuntu .so.109:49
seb128let's say skype is built with .so.009:49
seb128it'll not run on Ubuntu09:49
seb128out of this look on libfreetype6 rdepends09:50
seb128not an easy case09:50
siretartseb128: how about running dh_makeshlibs in libfreetype with '-V'?09:50
seb128that's bad09:50
seb128you should bump the shlibs only when the ABI/API change09:50
seb128not on every new version09:50
seb128because you force transitions when not required09:51
siretartI see09:51
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seb128and transitionning hundreds of packages is not a piece of cake09:51
siretartthe thing is, it IS required in this case09:51
seb128so you don't want to do it every single new version for nothing09:51
seb128right09:51
seb128soname should have been changed since symbols have been dropped09:51
seb128which breaks binary compatibily09:51
seb128the issue is that Debian screwed09:51
siretartso you suggest that freetype upstream and debian should fix this and we cannot do much about it, right?09:52
seb128and dholbach asked for a sync of the new version, so we are quite stucked too now09:52
seb128we don't want to do it differently from Debian09:52
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thoronHi! 09:52
seb128imho we should just bump the shlibs and move on09:52
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seb128dholbach: no need to be sorry, that happens to everybody :)09:53
seb128thoron: morning09:53
thoronCould I get somewhere the whole source of Ubuntu build system?09:53
dholbachthat's quite a lot :)09:53
HrdwrBoBthoron: if you so desired09:53
thoronNot the packages, only the system that makes the binaries. So that I make my own Linux distribution. ;-)09:54
sivangisn't it like the debian build system?  09:54
HrdwrBoBsivang: extremely complicated and takes many many hours to build?09:55
thoronAnything goes, is there some tarball available?09:55
siretartseb128: ok. what do we do about this freetype problem? wait for debian or bumb soname on our own?09:55
HrdwrBoBthoron: there is no giant source tarball09:56
HrdwrBoBthoron: you will have to grab each packages source individually09:56
thoronHrdwrBoB: No, I am not looking for source packages, I looking for build and release system.09:56
seb128siretart: my opinion is what I just said, bump the shlibs for now ... you may want to ask to Kamion/mdz09:57
thoronThe tools that Ubuntu or XYZ disto makes it work for source packages to bootable installation ISO images.09:57
thoronSurely that is not something that is made by hand.09:58
infinitythoron : svn ls http://svn.cyberhqz.com/svn/wanna-build/09:58
infinitythoron : That's (more or less) what we use for building binaries from sources.09:58
infinitythoron : We use the debian-cd package for making CD images.09:59
thoronNow we are getting somewhere. ;) Thanks.09:59
sivangthoron: well, I guess that are many automated parts in it, however I wouldn't count on the assumption it would all go into a nice formatted ISO without some intervention :)09:59
infinitythoron : Both are heavily modified by us, but that's what's publically available.09:59
thoronwell, I have lot to learn.10:00
thoronAnd I don't want to invent wheel again.10:00
thoroninfinity: so why isn't everything public?10:01
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infinitythoron : "Because it's not" is probably the best answer you'll get.  Most of our modifications are very specific to Ubuntu, so there's no point in pushing patches back out to the world at large.10:03
thoronLinux from scratch is interesting project too.10:03
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thoronThere is automation process going on but it's not ready yet.10:04
thoronAnd Red Hat will not release their build system if I have understood correctly.10:04
thoronAnyway, thanks for this part. I'll try to figure out how it works.10:05
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Tliughi guys10:22
TliugI've added a LILO boot screen for Ubuntu ...10:22
Tliughttp://guilt.bafsoft.net/stuff.php 10:22
Tliugplease check it out and let me know your opinion10:22
Tliug:)10:22
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TliugAnyone here? 10:23
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pittiMithrandir: ping10:40
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pittiogra: argh, what happened to xscreensaver? it looks like the Debian version again10:45
seb128pitti: read the changelog?10:47
seb128pitti: it's moved to universe with Ubuntu hacks dropped10:47
pittiseb128: ah, ok, sorry10:47
pittiso g-s-s comes along?10:47
seb128yep10:47
seb128pitti: no need to be sorry, just pointing that's explained by the changelog :)10:48
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janimoelmo, if it's you who can delete packages from the archive, please remove xffm4-icons, it is causing unnecessary user confusion and it is superseded (conflicts, replaces) by new xffm4. thank you10:54
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pittiyay, that's the dapper way of printing - put a pdf on an USB stick and boot a breezy live CD *grumpf*11:57
pittiKeybuk: oh, you are here now? :) maybe we can try to chase down the printing breakage?11:58
Keybukyeah, they attacked my line all day Friday and *still* haven't fixed it11:58
Keybukgrr11:58
pittiKeybuk: oh, you are still on modem?11:59
pittiKeybuk: I can feel your pain, I have to work though ISDN pretty ofen12:00
pittioften, even12:00
Keybukno, on ADSL, but it barely works at night time12:00
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Keybukpitti: "printing breakage"?12:06
Keybukdo you mean that cups sulks and doesn't recognise USB printers?12:06
pittiKeybuk: oh, I found out a bit now12:08
pittiKeybuk: usb printers are now called /dev/lp0, not /dev/usblp0 any more12:09
ograpitti, remove the old xscreensaver cruft, gnome-screensaver is the future ;) (will write the main inclusion reports today for you)12:09
pittiKeybuk: probably cupsys doesn't recognize that12:09
pittiKeybuk: oh, and linux-wlan-ng breaks as well - the prism2_usb module is not loaded automatically :(12:10
pittibah, even cp -a lp0 usblp0 doesn't help - cupsys refuses to see the printer12:11
fabbionepitti: you probably want a symlink on /dev12:12
pittifabbione: doesn't help12:12
Keybukpitti: yeah, that one I know, I fixed it already locally12:12
Keybukit's /dev/usb/lp0 ... extra /12:12
pittiah12:13
Keybukdunno why prism2_usb is not loaded ... easiest way to debug is to run "udevmonitor -e", then plug your adapter in12:13
pittiok, I'll do that later12:13
Keybukyou'll get a [UEVENT]  and [UDEV]  block for it (often multiple)12:13
pittihm, still no fun with /dev/usb/lp012:15
hungerKeybuk: You noticed bluetooth breaking?12:15
hungerKeybuk: bluetooth module is there, so udev seems to do its magic, so this is probably nothing for you to worry about.12:15
=== pitti RTFC
Keybukhunger: not yet12:16
Keybukagain, use udevmonitor to capture the device being inserted ... and mail me the output12:16
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pittiKeybuk: cupsys checks for /dev/usblp0, /dev/usb/lp0, /dev/usb/usblp0; should not be a problem to teach it /dev/lp0; but for that it has to work with usblp0 first12:17
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hungerKeybuk: The device is builtin... And I the key combo used to deactivate/activate does no longer work.12:18
Keybukhunger: built-in, or mini-PCI?  on my laptop the wifi killswitch also kills the bluetooth.12:19
Keybukpitti: nah, will fix the udev rules instead12:19
pittiKeybuk: k, but still a cp -a of the device should certainly work?12:19
hungerKeybuk: No idea how it is integrated.12:19
pittisince the kernel is only interested in the major/minor?12:19
hungerKeybuk: The wifi killswitch used to kill BT as well on mine. Unfortunately that no longer works since the kernel/udev upgrade.12:20
Keybukpitti: yes, but cups may not be inotifying the /dev directory <g>  if it only looks when hal tells it about a new device ...12:20
Keybukhunger: what wireless card is it?12:21
hungerKeybuk: BT is allways on now... but does not react to my mouse.12:21
pittiKeybuk: no, cupsys doesn't use hal - it just opens every usblp device it can find and issues some ioctls on it12:21
hungerKeybuk: Uses madwifi drivers... lspci lists it as Atheros AR5212.12:21
pittiKeybuk: (in list_devices)12:21
Keybukhunger: is your wifi card working?  is it up?12:22
Keybukpitti: when does it call that?12:22
pittiKeybuk: might very well be that the usblp driver was broken in a more recent kernel12:22
pittiKeybuk: whenever you ask for the device list12:22
hungerKeybuk: It is down at the moment.12:22
pittiKeybuk: but manually forcing usb:/dev/lp0 as a device doesn't work any more either12:22
hungerKeybuk: Wifi does work.12:22
Keybukcould be12:22
pittiKeybuk: I'll gdb this and dig a bit further12:22
KeybukI think there's also a race if you have a real /dev/lp012:23
Keybukthe kernel uses "lp0" to refer to both a real printer, and a usb printer12:23
pittiright, that's probably why the USB device detector doesn't check for /dev/lpX12:23
Keybukand depending which one gets detected first, wins the name12:23
Keybukyeah12:23
pittiKeybuk: oh, btw, with "yeah, that one I know, I fixed it already locally -- it's /dev/usb/lp0 ... extra /'12:24
pittiKeybuk: did you mean that it should be /dev/usblp0 right now?12:24
Keybukwhat do you think it should be?12:24
pittiKeybuk: no, I mean, my current /dev/lp0 is probably my parallel port12:24
pittiKeybuk: so priting somethign to it is doomed to fail12:25
Keybukright12:25
pittiso there is no device for my printer12:25
Keybukyes12:25
Keybukhere's a good way to fix it12:25
Keybukecho 'BUS=="usb", KERNEL=="lp[0-9] *", NAME="usb/%k"' > /etc/udev/rules.d/50-printer.rules12:26
Keybukusbplug -Busb12:26
pittiok, I have the udevmointor output for the printer12:26
Keybukthat should create /dev/usb/lp0 for you12:27
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Keybuksorry, udevplug12:27
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pittiKeybuk: yay, that worked12:30
Keybukshould it be /dev/usblp0 or /dev/usb/lp0 ?12:31
Keybukwhich one does the cupsys source seem to "prefer" ?12:31
pittiKeybuk: /dev/usblp012:32
pittiKeybuk: but it doesn't really care12:32
pittiKeybuk: but the flat name seems more consistent nowadays12:32
Keybukright12:32
Keybukflat it is then12:32
pittiKeybuk: what I don't understand is: there already is a rule 'SUBSYSTEM=="usb", KERNEL="lp[0-9] *",     GROUP="lp"'12:33
pittiKeybuk: is SUBSYSTEM wrong?12:34
pittiit's obviously evaluated since the permissions are correct12:34
pittiso both rules match12:34
pittibut with only this rule I should have gotten a /dev/lp112:34
pittioh, wait, no12:34
pittiit seems that the kernel enumerates usb lp devices separately12:35
Keybukexactlyu12:35
Keybukkernel names them *both* lp012:35
Keybukand udev doesn't compensate by re-enumeration12:35
pittithat explains the race12:35
pittiKeybuk: shall I open a bug report with that rule? or is your todo list enough for that?12:40
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Keybukpitti: it's already done12:46
Keybukpending, if you like12:46
Keybukdoing an update to 077 today, then will release it12:46
pittiok, great; then a bug report doesn't make sense12:47
pittiKeybuk: l-wlan-ng is a kernel fault, btw12:48
fabbionepitti: how's that?12:48
pittifabbione: well, not a bug in the kernel itself, just the prism2_usb driver needs updates for the new kernel12:49
fabbioneok..12:49
pittifabbione: dmesg says 'driver is using old /proc/net/wireless support, please fix driver'12:49
fabbioneehehe12:49
pittimodule is loaded, wlan0 appears in iwconfig, but with 'no wireless support'12:50
fabbionefix the driver ;)12:50
pittiand what do I do in the afternoon?12:51
eruinis "dlopen: /usr/lib/xorg/modules/libGLcore.so: undefined symbol: __glXLastContext" (Failed to load libGLcore.so) a candidate for a bug report? I saw a f-d mail about it ( https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2005-November/msg00558.html ) where someone had the issue with using the nv driver on the same xorg version as is in dapper, which leads me to believe it's not an issue with the fglrx I'm trying to use, but with xorg12:51
eruinif this stinks end-user-support, feel free to ignore ;)12:52
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mvoeruin: do you use the "ati" driver?12:55
eruincurrently trying to use fglrx12:56
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eruinmvo, was that a rhetorical question? ;)01:34
mvoeruin: oh, no. it's just had the ati driver has the same problem, but apparently i810, nv work fine01:35
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eruinmvo, hmm, according to the f-d list thread, nv has the same issue01:36
eruinthough that might ofcourse not apply to dapper01:36
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pittiHi jbailey 01:44
djk_doko: hi, why does the OOo package not include DicOOo and why does it not use the standard OOo buttons?01:44
jbaileyg'm Martin (et al)01:45
dholbachdjk_: do you have openoffice2-gnome installed?01:45
djk_dholbach: i use kubuntu and the 1.9.129 package01:46
dholbachi see, was just a quick guess01:47
dokodjk_: remove openoffice.org2-kde01:48
djk_doko: it's not the buttons i actually care about, i just wonder why DicOOo wasn't included.01:49
dokolicense problems01:49
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djk_doko: oh, i didn't know that file had a different license than the rest of OOo.01:50
dokoit's worse. the licenses differ from dictionary to dictionary (language to language)01:52
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djk_ah okay, that explains this of course. could one add a notice to the ubuntu releases regarding that?01:54
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dokochmj: please build libxml-commons-resolver1.1-java without libxerces-java, which is not in main02:09
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chmjdoko: got it 02:12
dokochmj: ok02:14
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Keybukpitti: typo in auto-generated libgphoto2 rules ... you have "Goto=" not "GOTO=" :p02:26
pittiKeybuk: oh, thanks; I'll file a Debian bug and fix that in our packages02:27
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pittijbailey: how difficult would it be to add another locales defintions path to localedef?02:31
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jbaileypitti: What do you mean?02:31
pittijbailey: we need a locales-all package since some packages need the locales in their test suites at build time (gcc, etc.)02:31
pittijbailey: right now, localedef looks in /usr/share/i18n/locales02:31
jsgotangcohi02:32
pittijbailey: can we have it additionally look into /usr/share/locales-all? (or sth. similar)02:32
pittijbailey: to avoid a file conflict of locales-all with the langpacks02:32
jbaileyYes, that can be done, I think.02:33
jbaileyDo you need glibc to look at those as well, though?02:34
jbaileyI think you do.02:34
pittijbailey: hm, I don't02:34
pittijbailey: the only issue is the path of the definition sources02:34
pittinot the binary generated ones02:34
pittijbailey: we only need to unbreak the test suites02:34
jbaileyAh, I see.02:34
jbaileySo it's for an overall dump that can be just installed and generated as needed?02:35
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pittijbailey: right, it should just become a build dep of python, gcc, bash (and possibly a few others)02:37
pittijbailey: pretty hackish, but I don't see another good solution; doko doesn't want gcc et al to b-dep on 10 langpacks02:37
pitti(understandably...)02:38
jbaileyLazy sod.02:38
=== jbailey hides
jbailey=)02:38
pittijbailey: so this -all package can just be generated from langpack-o-matic, which has the locale data02:38
pittijbailey: alternatively, we change the structure again to just use this -all package in the langpacks and not ship the locales in the langpacks itself02:39
pittijbailey: it doesn't sound too bad either02:39
pitti(and then -all is superfluous, it should just be locales)02:39
dokojbailey: get you coffee^Wtea first, so you become bearable ;-)02:40
dokopitti: yes, the proposal sounds good02:40
pittiwell, having locales spread in langpacks is still a nice idea IMHO02:41
pittie. g. the -all approach would force us to update locales-all whenever we update a locake in a langpack02:41
pittiso we can't do that after a release02:42
jbaileyHaving them spread throughout, I think, make for a more scalable installation as we penetrate to more communities.02:42
pitti(that's why b-deps on the langpacks are the only true way to get the locales that are actually used in the system)02:42
jbaileypitti: Is locales-all just intended for build-dep'ing?  Like for testsuites and whatnot?02:42
jbaileySo there'd be no reason to update it after a reelase.02:42
pittijbailey: right now, yes02:42
jbailey(And not much reason to update it ever, really...)02:42
pittijbailey: if we don't update it, then it becomes senseless02:43
pittithen we can as well copy the locales into the sources itself02:43
jbaileyThings that depend on localisations for their testsuites are (to some degree) broken, since there's no promises that the data won't change.  The glibc testsuite made a bunch of assumptions that the belocs locales had changed.02:43
jbaileyRight.  That's part of what I'm wondering.02:43
jbaileyShould the testsuites themselves just cache a version that they know to meet their needs that won't change?02:44
dokopitti, jbailey: why not ship the data in /usr/share/i18n/locales in the locales package?02:44
pittijbailey: according to doko, the testsuites want the actually used locales in the system, which makes sense to me02:44
pittidoko: file conflict with langpacks02:44
dokopitti: that's solvable02:44
jbaileypitti: How does it make sense?  There's no promise about collation ordering, currencies, symbol names, etc.02:45
jbaileyThese things do slowly change.02:45
pittijbailey: right, comparing string output doesn't make sense, but I don't know what the locale tests actually do. doko?02:45
jbaileyI had to fix the glibc testsuite to work with the belocs data because its internal collation testing relied on ordering that had changed with belocs.02:45
dokopitti: is the data in /usr/share/i18n/locales managed by rosetta? if not, then there's no reason not to keep it in the locales package02:46
jbaileypitti: I'd assume everything.  Python / gcj would want to test date, ordering, currency, etc.02:46
pittidoko: it will be eventually02:46
pittidoko: that was part of the idea02:46
jbaileydoko: The idea is that as new languages get added to the system, that rosetta can handle all of it.02:46
jbaileydoko: So that you come along and decide to, say, get one of the North American native languages into Ubuntu.  Translators should be able to generally do all that work in rosetta and not bother the poor coders about it. =)02:47
dokowell, why not have the same schema as we have with the language packs: have two locations, and if rosetta has an update, use that one02:47
pittithat's what the alternative path in localedef is about02:48
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pittidoko: but still the question remains what gcc etc. actually test about a particular locale?02:48
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dokopitti: yes, but packages can continue to b-d on locales, and don't have to be changed02:49
jbaileydoko: That's what we'll do , assuming that it's the right thing.02:49
jbaileyI'm not convinced that it's safe for a package to test based on  properties of a system locale.02:49
dokopitti: have a look, there are just 60000 test cases ;-)02:49
jbaileyBecause you're caching the results of that system locale in the testsuite.02:49
jbaileyWith no promise that the system locale is static.02:50
Kamionjbailey: I can see how you'd want to test against the current system locales, though02:52
\shjbailey: Sure...I would like to see you doing some lectures on cdbs for the ubuntu motu school :) lets talk about date and time later02:52
Kamionas opposed to some artificial set of locales that don't actually correspond to what will be used02:53
dokojbailey: well, that's no change to the current approach. We do work with the system locale, so we should test with it as well02:53
infinityjbailey : By that argument, we shouldn't have testsuites, unless we're going to re-run them every time anything on the system changes.02:53
jbaileyKamion: It depends on what you're testing.02:53
Kamionglibc's a special case because it's shipping tools that manage the locales, but most other testsuites will want to test that they work *with* the system locales02:53
pittiKamion: it depends on what you actually test for02:53
jbaileyMost of the time I don't think they're actually interested in testing that "In german, collation comes out in this order".  That's a nonsensical test.02:54
jbaileyWhat I suspect that they want is that a series of colation option DTRT.02:55
jbaileyAnd that this is conveninently tested by looking at German, Chinese, and Khosa. =)02:55
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jbailey\sh: Lovely. =)02:55
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pitti_hrmpf network02:56
pitti_<pitti> Kamion: an artificial locale is the right thing for checking correct collation, time formatting, etc., whereas the system locale is good for checking for - well - hmm, whether the time is formatted at all?02:56
\shjbailey: Well, I have to thank you for raising this idea...I wanted to ask you anyways :)02:56
doko\sh: ask jbailey to talk about the finished cdbs2 implementation ;-P02:56
jbailey\sh: Now's not the best time, I'm split between two things already at once.02:56
\shjbailey: well...the plan is to have at least every two weeks one lecture (from january on)02:57
\shjbailey: I'm preparing some timetable now...and collecting the topics and the speakers :)02:57
pittiI thought cdbs2 would never see the light of the day, in favor of -3?02:57
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\shdoko: well...I heard, you wanted to do a nice lecture about "ABI Transitions...how to find the right packages to transition!" topic...02:58
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doko\sh: you're the expert ;-)02:59
jbaileyinfinity: Isn't the proposal at some point to separate the builds from the testsuites so that a test run can be done later?03:00
\shdoko: but you prepare this stuff...and I would like you to explain why it has to be done and how it's working...would be nice if you could do this in the near future...(february sometimes)03:00
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jbaileyinfinity: I thought I heard someone suggesting that at UBZ.03:00
jbaileyinfinity: But mostly, I think it depends on what you're testing for.  I'd be curious in which cases programs are testing things which are actually best served by the actual results from the system locales.03:01
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infinityjbailey : I don't recall anyone suggesting build/test separation, but I approve of the general idea.03:02
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jbaileyinfinity: I'll try and come up with the who said it.03:03
jbaileyinfinity: It wouldn't be the first time I've dreamed of a coworker saying something and then implemented it as if it were fact.  *sigh*03:03
jbailey(Or gone to them and asked them if they were insane)03:03
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fabbionedoko: should i bother to try the new oo2 on sparc?03:04
jbaileyfabbione: You were complaining yesterday that the buildd was idle ;)03:04
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fabbionejbailey: i did a give back :)03:04
dokofabbione: it should not fail, but wait until the i386 build succeeds03:05
fabbionejbailey: and each doko upload means ~ 24 hours of work for my buildd03:05
fabbionedoko: will do thanks dude03:05
Keybukpitti: what's with the ENV{UDEVD_EVENT} and ENV{SEQNUM} checks in /etc/udev/rules.d/85-hal.rules ?03:05
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Keybukoh, and there's a typo in there too03:06
KeybukI think that file should be just:03:06
KeybukRUN+="socket:/org/freedesktop/hal/udev_event"03:06
KeybukSUBSYSTEM=="block", ACTION=="remove", RUN+="/lib/udev/hal-unmount.sh"03:06
Kamionjbailey: build/test separation is part of AutomatedTesting, yes03:06
Keybuk(note ACTION== not ACTION=, and move the helper to /lib/udev if you like)03:06
jbaileyKamion: Oh good. =)03:07
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pittiKeybuk: dunno, these SEQNUM and UDEVD_EVENT checks were there for ages, I didn't change them03:07
Keybukpitti: they're a bit irrelevant now :p03:08
pittiKeybuk: ok, I'll clean it up03:08
pittiKeybuk: ok, fixed in my local package; I'll upload it when I fixed some more stuff03:10
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pittiHi BenC 03:16
BenChey pitti03:16
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seb128doko: thanks for pinging me for the menus change before uploading openoffice.org203:38
Kamionpitti: hmm, I just found my sysfsutils patch was slightly wrong03:38
Kamionpitti: could you please arrange for the udeb to remove the libsysfs.so.1 symlink and move libsysfs.so.1.0.3 to libsysfs.so.1?03:39
pittiKamion: I can change it in Debian quickly (oh, we can sync, btw)03:39
pittiKamion: sure, that's not a problem03:39
dokoseb128: that won't be the only upload this week03:39
KamionI'll just check that that really works, but d-i library reduction fails otherwise and I think that's why03:40
pittiKamion: ah, there should be no library symlinks in udebs in general?03:40
Kamionit seems to break when there are library symlinks in /lib03:41
Kamionhmm, I may have an alternative solution though, one sec03:41
seb128doko: I'll do the patch now, please ship it with next one :)03:41
Kamionlibrary symlinks are kinda pointless in udebs though :)03:41
pittiright03:42
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Kamionpitti: ok, my workaround didn't work, but moving the library does work, so yes, please do that thanks :)03:48
\shSTRIKE03:48
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\shI just ordered a nice amd6403:48
pittiKamion: ok, I'll upload it to Debian and then we sync from incoming in half an hour?03:48
Kamionworks for me03:48
ogra\sh, WOW !!!03:49
ogra\sh, congrats 03:49
\shogra: including everything 450,-  (shipping, etc.) but no monitor...03:49
\shwhich means I need to install ubuntu via serial...03:50
\shI hope this is possible03:50
raphinkUbuntu lacks a netinstall03:50
jbailey\sh: Works on sparc. =)03:50
raphinkor I yet have to find it03:50
raphinkif it exists03:51
Kamionraphink: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/03:51
\shraphink: no..netinstall works :)03:51
Kamionnext time start out with a question rather than a statement :-P03:51
raphinkoh good03:51
ograheh03:51
raphinkhehe03:51
raphinkI missed it several times03:51
raphinkit's not easy to find03:51
Kamionyeah, it should be documented better. it's referenced in the installation manual shipped on the CDs03:52
raphinkhehe sorry Kamion ;)03:52
zakameKamion: ooh netinstall! :D03:52
ograa wikipage would suffice i guess ;)03:52
raphinkzakame: you ignored there was one, too ? ;)03:52
raphinkogra : agreed03:52
Kamionogra: no, not really, it needs to be linked from www.u.c/download/ and cdimage, probably03:52
zakameraphink: well I remembered Debian has it, so Ubuntu should have it too :)03:52
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raphinkzakame: that's what I thought at first, but lately I searched for it and couldn't find one, only threads about creating one03:53
Kamionogra: I can tell that a wiki page doesn't suffice because there's already more than one03:53
raphinkso i'm happy there's one :)03:53
ograKamion, yes, but for a start it would be nice to find the url by searching for netinstall03:53
raphinkthat's very useful03:53
\shjbailey: on sparc I know that it works :) but do we have enabled serial output in our syslinux and kernel?03:53
Kamion(Installation/Netboot, Installation/LocalNet, etc.)03:53
\shogra: search for netinstall on the wiki03:53
ograoh, yes03:53
Kamionogra: netinstall means something else in a Debian context; netboot is usually close enough for most people, but it isn't the same03:54
ograi searched for title ... 03:54
ograa conten search throws ot several pages03:54
ogra*content03:54
Kamionso I do not advertise the netboot images as netinstall (i.e. CD images containing the full installer and base system but requiring you to download the rest from the network)03:54
\shKamion: do you actually know if we enabled serial output in syslinux and the kernel?03:55
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ogradamned i need a serial mouse ...03:55
Kamion\sh: not for certain, no, although I'd be surprised if it were disabled03:55
raphinkthere's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation/Netboot?action=show&redirect=NetbootInstall03:55
KamionDebian has it on and I certainly haven't turned it off in syslinux03:55
\shKamion: ok...I'll check it out on friday..when the computer is delivered :)03:56
raphinkKamion: yes I meant netinstall as a small (10 MB) CD that contains the installer and installs everything from network03:57
zakameer, I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I'm toying with the idea of a graphical first time guide, similar to what xp has (its in flash)...03:57
ogra\sh, do you have access to serial mice anywhere ? apparently the serial mouse patches to ltsp dont work and i cant even test it03:57
sivang\sh: bought a new machine ? :)03:57
Kamionraphink: "yes <contradiction>" ;-)03:57
raphinkhehe ;)03:57
raphinkwell gtg03:57
raphinklater03:57
Kamionraphink: the netboot images I pointed you to contain the core of the installer and enough to get more03:57
\shogra: sorry no...I only have access to a ps/2 mouse03:57
zakamebye raphink :)03:57
\shsivang: finally03:57
Kamionand the image is less than 10MB, yes03:58
sivang\sh: I also want to get an amd64 machine, soon03:58
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ograi can only test liveCDs ... :/03:59
\shogra: pegasos04:00
ograhmm, whats still making acpi-support and powermanagement-interface uninstallable ? 04:00
ogra\sh, nah ... i want something commonly used 04:00
ograwho uses *pegasos* 04:00
\shmac mini then :)04:00
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ograyes, but they are still expensive ... only for install tests ... i think i'll look for a cheapo used iMac or something ...04:02
seb128doko: there is just the debian/template.desktop.in to not ship (debian/rules to change for that), do you need a patch or could you make the few changes for that?04:05
dokoseb128: that file isn't used04:06
sivangogra: ebay should probably have enough offerings04:07
ograi guess so04:07
seb128doko: ?04:07
seb128$ grep "desktop.in" rules04:07
seb128        sed 's/@VER@/$(VER)/g' debian/template.desktop.in \04:07
seb128        sed 's/@VER@/$(VER)/g' debian/template.desktop.in \04:07
seb128doko: that seems to be the menu entry we want to drop to me04:07
seb128(I've 1.9.129 source package)04:08
dokoahh, ok, for the "From Template ..." one04:08
seb128doko: yep04:09
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seb128doko: so, do you want a patch or you just do the changes for that for the next upload?04:13
dokoseb128: please send me a patch, you can use the file from 1.9.129. it's unchanged04:14
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ograhmm, 165 doesnt seem to much for an unsed iMac04:28
ogra*used04:29
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Amaranthyeah, but new ones are faster than advertised, have more video ram than advertised, and have a faster HD04:32
ograbut what for ? i only need it for install tests i'll never work with it ...04:33
ograor for ltsp client tests04:33
pittiKamion: sysfsutils_1.3.0-5_i386.changes  is on incoming.d.o04:41
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pittiKamion: current Ubuntu changes can be overwritten, if you want to sync yourself04:41
zakameer, what's policy for java packages in ubuntu?  I'm trying to merge lucene, and I'm reconciling the b-d-i's...04:44
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Kamionelmo: please sync sysfsutils from incoming, ok to overwrite; needed for d-i to build04:53
Kamionpitti: thanks04:53
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elmopartman (68/74ubuntu2+1): in main - skipping.05:34
elmoKamion: ok to remove or not?05:34
DizietHmm.  So I want to make a new project/package/thing for AutomatedTesting (got to the top of my list, yay).05:35
Kamionelmo: not - partman.udeb's been replaced by partman.deb05:35
DizietWhat should I do about revision control ?  (a) cp -a   (b) CVS   (c) baz   (d) bzr  (e) hct  ?05:35
mdke_elmo, <insert daily ping about docteam commit access here>05:37
jbaileyDiziet: I don't think (e) is far enough along yet to generally use the way you'll want, and is primarily targetted to packages.05:37
DizietThis won't be a complicated project.  Is bzr ready enough ?  How's its integration with the .dsc toolchains ?05:37
Dizietjbailey: Right.  This will be a package.05:37
jbaileyDiziet: I use bzr for all my personal projects now.05:37
jbaileyI haven't gotten around to writing bzr-buildpackage, although I keep meaning to.05:37
jbaileyMore interesting things keep coming up for spare time hacking like that.05:37
DizietRight :-).  I'm not sure I want to get into that kind of yak-shaving either.  Presumably if you haven't done it yet it's not that essential.05:38
mvoI use bzr as well for all new stuff and it works very well for me05:38
DizietI haven't used bzr at all.05:38
jbaileyDiziet: Are you likely to be the main developer for this stuff?05:38
DizietYes, at least for now.05:38
jbaileyDiziet: Here's all you need to know to start with:05:38
DizietBut I should learn bzr anyway so maybe this is a good place to start.05:38
jbaileyDiziet: Put everything in a directory where you want it and are ready for the initial commit.  Then do: bzr init; bzr add .; bzr commit -m "Initial Commit"05:39
jbaileyDiziet: Literally: Setup the repo, add all the files from the current directory down, actually do the commit.05:39
DizietI'm very `commit early, commit often' whereever possible.  bzr's cheap branches seem likely to be good for that.05:39
jbaileyDiziet: It requires no server.  It puts everything in a .bzr directory off the root of the tree.05:39
Dizietjb: And when you dpkg-buildpackage you end up shipping a copy of the repo too ?05:40
jbaileyDiziet: I do a -I.bzr in my debuild.05:40
Dizietjbailey: Right.05:40
mvoDiziet: I have a arch-build in my debian/rules with  "tar cf - `bzr inventory` | (cd debian/arch-build/$(PKG)-$(DEBVER);tar xf -)05:41
mvo"05:41
DizietOh, debuild has been rewritten by someone-not-Christoph-Lameter.  Maybe I'll try it out some time :-).05:41
Dizietmvo: :-).05:42
DizietErr, WDYM `arch' ?  Is this `bazaar is a brand so it doesn't mean anything, and bazaar is supposedly the successor to arch, so arch must be a brand too, so arch==bzr' ? :-)05:43
jbaileyDiziet: I've done a ssh people.ubuntu.com mkdir -p public_html/bzrtree then after that "bzr push people.ubuntu.com:public_html/bzrtree/PACKAGE"05:43
jbaileyDiziet: And then anyone else can branch from you trivially.  And then it's also someone else job to put it onto a tape backup. =)05:43
DizietIs there a bzr reference manual ?  I like reference manuals much more than recipes and howtos.05:43
DizietI have my own tape backup here :-P.05:44
jbaileyI do too.  It's in a box somewhere.05:44
jbaileyI don't know if I can still buy tapes for it. =)05:44
DizietRight under the 4 obsolete CRTs and the Sun4c, right.05:44
jbaileyHey it's not that bad.05:44
jbaileyIt's a Mips 5000. =)05:44
jbaileyDiziet: But basically after that, all you need is the occasional bzr add and frequent bzr commits, and end of day bzr push's.05:45
jbaileyIt caches the location of the last push, so just "bzr push" is enough after that.05:46
DizietLike I say, I want a reference manual.05:46
DizietCool.05:46
jbaileyThere might even be one.  I05:46
=== Diziet finds a URL in the FM.
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jbailey'll go looking when I decide to figure out how merges and cherrypicking works. =)05:46
Kamionjbailey: do you happen to know if there's any way to tell whether you're in an initrd or an initramfs?05:47
Kamionfrom the perspective of a random shell script running in either05:47
DizietHmm.  I can have   http://www.bazaar-ng.org/obsolete-docs/cmdref.html   which looks nice but out of date, or a wiki (doom).05:47
Kamionor 'bzr help commands'05:47
jbaileyKamion: Am I allowed to assume that the initramfs was created by initramfs-tools, or are you looking from the first point when you start up?05:48
DizietThat's not quite a reference manual :-).05:48
Kamion(although I realise you need an initial "how does it all go together" first05:48
Kamionjbailey: neither, because this is in the live CD05:48
\shgoing home05:49
KamionI can put a cue-file in if I *have* to, but I'd rather not05:49
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mdke_elmo, thanks!05:49
jbaileyKamion: My best guess is that you might be able to check filesystem type.05:49
jbaileyKamion: initrd might be a read-only cramfs.05:49
jbaileyinitramfs is a RW cramfs.05:49
jbaileyerr.05:49
jbaileyRW ramfs05:49
jbaileybut that's a guess.05:49
Kamionin an initrd it's 'tmpfs on / type tmpfs (rw)'05:50
Kamionwell, in *this* initrd05:50
Kamionjbailey: also, do you know if anyone's already porting klibc's run-init to busybox?05:50
jbaileyKamion: Oh hm.  you're using ext2 images aren't,you?05:52
Kamionthat said I suppose run-init's trivial if you don't bother to remove the initramfs contents and if you assume that the new root filesystem has mount and chroot05:52
Kamionjbailey: varies by arch05:52
Kamionfrom 2.6.15 installer images onwards, at least in Ubuntu, it will be initramfs for everything; before that, it was ext2 on some and cramfs on others, depending on size restrictions and on what our beloved kernel team decided to provide ;)05:52
Kamion(gzipped ext2 was rather more size-efficient than cramfs last time I checked, but wasn't available everywhere)05:53
DizietUrgh, James B consistently writes `independantly'.05:57
lucasI have a problem with a desktop system which hangs during shutdown/reboot. On which package should I report the bug on bugzilla ?06:00
mdkelucas, do the best you can. If you have no idea, try UNKNOWN, and it will get reassigned appropriately.06:01
mdkeDiziet, is that on the wiki? maybe we can correct it06:02
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ogralucas, look for it in bugzilla, i'm sure there are bugs already ...06:02
lucaswell, I was hoping to skip one step by asking here :)06:02
Dizietmdke: No, it's on his blog.06:02
mdkeah :(06:02
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elmodoko!06:31
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elmoWTH is this oo.o -experimental crap?!06:31
dokoelmo: native amd64 packages, as discussed on the last meeting06:32
elmowhich meeting?06:32
ograelmo, the weekly meeting06:32
ogradapper dev06:33
dokoyep06:33
dokoelmo: these will go away before dapper is released06:33
ograits only for the flight 2 CD for now ...06:34
dokoogra: no way!06:34
ogradoko, ?? 06:34
ogradid you say you build them to make flight 2 possible ? or did i get that wrong ?06:34
dokoyes, you're wrong, we'll use the ia32 binaries06:35
ograah, k06:35
ograso ignore me then :)06:35
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elmodear lazychannel, where are the logs for this meeting? kthx06:40
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dokoOOo build with -j3 was not a good idea ...06:44
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elmook, so I found the last meeting can't see any refernce to this, seriously, someone pls give me a useful keyword to search on, I've tried the obvious ones (oo.o, amd64, experimental)06:49
dokoMithrandir doko: are you doing the ooo-amd64 stuff as well?  It's a fairly easy change, I'd imagine?06:50
Riddell_mvo_: kdebase-bin I think06:50
dokoelmo: ^^^06:50
_mvo_Riddell: thanks06:50
pittimvo: move it :)06:51
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elmodoko: pfft06:58
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LaserJockAmaranth: ping?07:02
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thierry_seb128_ : does the .desktop file get translated by default or we need to set something special for it? (like a happy maintainer that adds translation directly in the .desktop file?)07:11
dokoelmo: as the OOo build failed, I need another upload. so what does the "pfft" mean? ;-)07:13
seb128_thierry_: that's why one the reason why desktop files should go upstream07:13
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thierry_seb128_ : ok but when upstream, do they go in the translations files?07:14
elmodoko: there's no actual discussion in that meeting or justification07:14
elmodoko: do these packages work?07:14
elmodoko: if not, why build them?  if they do, why not just ship them as the default?07:14
elmodoko: are we going to ship with these in dapper?07:14
elmoetc.07:14
seb128_thierry_: the strings are listed by the pot file if that's the question07:15
thierry_k thanks07:15
thierry_seb128 : well in fact I wanted to know if they are listed automatically, or someone needs to add them?07:15
dokoelmo: not shipping in dapper, testing, the build, they work until they crash. ok, I'll let Mithrand1r sort this out, it's not my task anyway. 07:16
seb128thierry_: you need to make a desktop.in and to list in with po/POTFILES*07:17
thierry_seb128 : and how do I do that?07:17
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thierry_seb128 : what's the difference between a .desktop and a .desktop.in07:18
seb128thierry_: the first has the translation and is generated from the second07:19
seb128thierry_: look on whatever source package, the .desktop.in has _Name=, _Description=. The .desktop is made from this one using the po translations for those07:20
thierry_seb128 : ok but if I sent a .desktop addition to upstream, will they create the .desktop.in or is my job to do so?07:22
seb128thierry_: better to do it, but they will probably do it other way07:23
thierry_seb128 : ok cool, but how do I do it? where do I put this file? in debian directory?07:24
seb128look on other package sources07:26
seb128usually data/07:26
seb128you need to list the Makefile.am07:27
seb128s/list/change/07:27
LaserJockelmo: can I request a sync of ghemical? I have verified that the Debian unstable source builds in a dapper pbuilder and the previous Ubuntu changes are no longer neccessary.07:28
thierry_seb128 : and is "cp src/pixmaps/sine.xpm debian/geg/usr/share/pixmaps" a good way to copy the icon in /usr/share/pixmaps ?07:28
seb128for a package that's a way, for upstream no07:29
thierry_seb128 : why not for upstream??07:29
ograbecause upstream doesnt use the debian dir and might want to integrate with his .po files07:30
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thierry_ogra : k but what do I do if I want to sent my patch upstream?07:30
elmoLaserJock: are you a motu?07:31
seb128thierry_: learn?07:31
ograask upstream how he wants it first ? 07:31
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ograhe/shce might telly you what to do 07:31
seb128thierry_: you need to change the Makefile.am to get the file shipped07:31
ograelmo, not yet07:32
LaserJockelmo: no, not yet, but the Debian maintainer is azeem. He can verify07:32
thierry_seb128 : mmm any wiki or guide for that?07:32
azeemI am not a motu, either07:32
elmoLaserJock: get a motu to verify and I'll sync.  what's your preferred email?07:32
LaserJockelmo: mantha@chem.unr.edu07:32
seb128thierry_: nop, just look at some package as example07:33
elmoLaserJock: ok, whitelisted you - lemme know when you've got a MOTU to sign off07:34
LaserJockelmo: ok, thanks07:34
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AmaranthLaserJock: pong07:55
LaserJockAmaranth: I have a menu question07:55
AmaranthI'm psychic. ;)07:56
LaserJockAmaranth: Is it ok to put Categories=Application;Science; in a .desktop?07:56
LaserJocklol07:56
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LaserJockI mean there isn't a Science menu but there really should be one, I think07:57
AmaranthI don't see why not.07:57
AmaranthIt's a valid category according to the spec.07:57
AmaranthBut GNOME's applications.menu doesn't have any sorting for it.07:57
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LaserJockAmaranth: right so what will happen to it?07:58
AmaranthIt'll go into Other.07:58
LaserJockAmaranth: that stinks07:58
LaserJockso is that a Gnome problem?07:58
AmaranthDefine "problem".07:58
AmaranthI'm sure it'll get flagged NOTABUG.07:59
\shgod bless daniels...he gave me back xvfb-run :)07:59
LaserJockwell, it should go in Science not other07:59
\shdaniels: thx07:59
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AmaranthLaserJock: Science doesn't exist in the GNOME menu and they'll say it's too specialist to include.08:00
AmaranthI believe someone already tried to get it.08:00
\shdaniels: but you broke it :( or gtk is broken08:00
Amaranthblame gtk08:00
Amaranth:)08:00
\sh** ERROR **: Failed to init GTK+08:00
\shaborting...08:00
LaserJockAmaranth: that's irritating, so there isn't anything we can do about it>08:00
\sh/usr/bin/xvfb-run: line 153:  5102 Trace/breakpoint trap   DISPLAY=:$SERVERNUM XAUTHORITY=$AUTHFILE "$@" 2>&108:00
thierry_LaserJock : I just installed a rebuilt package with a new .desktop file with the science menu as category, and I get nothing in the menu, not even others08:00
\sh/usr/bin/xvfb-run: line 158: kill: (5100) - No such process08:00
AmaranthLaserJock: You can put it in more than one menu.08:00
Amaranththierry_: Then your .desktop file isn't valid.08:00
Amaranththierry_: If my dapper vmware image worked I'd tell you the command to run to check it.08:01
thierry_Amaranth : thierry@modemcable050:~/dev/geg-1.0.2/debian$ desktop-file-validate geg.desktop08:01
thierry_thierry@modemcable050:~/dev/geg-1.0.2/debian$08:01
LaserJockAmaranth: what do you mean but "put it in more than one menu", like a different category?08:01
LaserJocks/but/by/08:02
AmaranthLaserJock: Yeah, you can do Categories=Applications;Science;Education; or something.08:02
LaserJockAmaranth: yeah, well I guess that will have to do. I was trying to avoid putting non educational things in Education.08:03
Amaranthscience apps are always educational :)08:03
Amaranththey teach you about your level of patience :D08:04
thierry_Amaranth LaserJock : maybe we could retry sending a bug to gnome since it doesn't make very professional putting science stuff in education menu, wich doesn't even have an icon!08:04
LaserJockAmaranth: but seriously, many of them are real research tools. oh well08:05
thierry_it's ugly looking and not very well triaged...08:05
Amaranthhttp://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14090008:05
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AmaranthLaserJock, thierry_: Poke that bug, see if someone responds.08:07
\shgrmpf08:07
LaserJockyeah, ok thanks for your help Amaranth. I don't want to keep you any longer from your other important work ;-)08:08
Amaranthhehe, these little breaks are fun though08:08
thierry_Amaranth : just added a comment about how much it was sooooo important that this get fixed :)08:13
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fabbionedear ftpmaster, I really appreciate the sync you have to NEW daily d-i and me running rsync. please shift to normal working hours. kthxbye08:26
elmofabbione: -EITAGLISH08:27
fabbioneelmo: ehhe 08:27
elmofabbione: seriously, I don't parse?08:28
elmospeaking of daily d-i08:28
elmolamont/infinity/kamion: only ia64 is being built ATM08:28
fabbioneelmo: each time you NEW daily d-i, i start rsync and find this nice 300MB of stuff to download :/08:28
Kamionelmo: sysfsutils upload fixed it, I byhanded amd64 and i386 earlier, when the powerpc buildd gets off its arse and builds sysfsutils it should work too08:28
elmoKamion: ah, ok08:29
Kamions/upload/sync/08:29
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fabbioneshifting 12 hours would let me sync while i am sleeping ;)08:29
Kamionah, sysfsutils_powerpc in accepted, woo08:29
Kamionfabbione: was me doing the byhands, and I'm sorry but I needed to do it fairly urgently08:29
fabbioneKamion: i will survive :)08:30
Kamionbecause I can't do any CD testing at all until that blockage is shifted08:30
fabbionei love you guys too much to be upset08:30
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Kamion(oh, just on a semantic note, daily d-i doesn't get newed, it gets byhanded ...)08:30
fabbioneright08:30
Kamionjust be glad you aren't mirroring cdimage right now08:31
\shTopic No. 8 : "The Ubuntu Vocabulary" -> Host: Kamion08:31
fabbioneKamion: i do08:31
Kamion\sh: no :)08:31
fabbioneKamion: but only once a day in the morning08:31
\shKamion: hehehe08:32
Kamionfabbione: whoa, insane person08:32
Kamionwhat, really cdimage, not releases?08:32
Kamionoh, iirc you only mirror {daily,daily-live,dvd}/current/ or something, that's not so bad08:32
fabbioneyeah08:33
fabbioneonly daily08:33
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\shelmo: please sync ghemical from unstable, ok to override, thx08:33
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fabbioneKamion: what's up with cdimage?08:33
fabbionedid you decide to re-release warty/hoary and breey in one go?08:33
Kamionfabbione: no, just doing a fair few builds today that's all08:33
fabbioneeeheh08:34
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fabbioneKamion: do you think we can schedule to start building -server cd's after flight-2 ?08:35
fabbionespeaking of which.. i need to setup the mailing list08:35
Kamionfabbione: cdimage is already trying to build them08:35
fabbioneKamion: ah nice.. reports at the usual url?08:36
Kamiontoday's build apparently succeeded in fact08:36
Kamionyeah08:36
fabbioneserver rocks!08:36
Kamionand previous builds have succeeded (from before I turned cdimage off for five days during the kernel madness)08:36
fabbioneok08:36
fabbionethe 2 problems are known and soon to be addressed08:36
fabbioneas soon as Ben will upload 7.9 i will have to book 20 minutes of your time08:37
fabbionebecause we should get the first cut of server kernels08:37
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Kamionmeh, that's probably a bit more than 20 minutes08:38
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Kamionhope you don't want them in d-i08:38
fabbioneKamion: that's what i wanted to talk with you about.. best approach to it08:38
Kamion'cos that would be PAIN and SUFFERING08:38
fabbionei love pain and suffering :)08:38
KamionI prefer inflicting pain and suffering on people who overcomplicate the installer build system ;)08:38
trevilorhi guys08:38
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fabbioneKamion: we can avoid to do that.. really.. ideally we can install with 386 and install by default the 686-server kernel08:39
fabbioneKamion: optional a 686-superhighendclassservernoyoucantrunthisathomebecauseyoucanteffordthehw08:39
fabbionebut well08:40
fabbioneyou tell me when08:40
\shogra: please remind me, if fabbione and kamion are visiting cologne, that I have to go somewhere else...too much SM here08:40
ogralol08:40
\shlove pain and suffering vs. inflict pain and suffering...that's too much stiefelknecht08:41
Kamionfabbione: right, that sort of thing is only P&S in base-installer, which is not so bad08:41
fabbioneogra: you should probably show HellRaiser to \sh08:41
Kamion(it's already a bit of a mess)08:41
fabbioneKamion: ok :)08:41
ografabbione, i bet he knows it ... (actually i never asked him)08:41
\shfabbione: the movie?08:42
\shpart 1/2/3?08:42
fabbione\sh: movies08:42
ogra\sh, ever seen/read hellraiser ?#08:42
fabbionefrom 1 to 6 ?08:42
ogra\sh, all08:42
\shi missed 4/5/608:42
\shthe guy with the nails in his head, right? actually I don't like b-movies ,)08:43
ogra\sh, its not a movie, its philosophy :)08:44
tsengmassochism?08:45
fabbionetseng: no08:45
fabbionenot really08:45
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\shogra: hmmm....torrent url? ,-)08:46
\shoh no...no space left on home....deleting sources now08:47
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fabbione\sh: time to get a bigger hd08:47
\shfabbione: the new machine will be delivered thursday or friday...08:48
ogra\sh, aldi sells 250 GIG USB HDs for 140 08:48
\shogra: I just bought a stupid sempron6408:48
tseng\sh: ugh08:48
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backports-r-usI need some quick GNOME C help... would this be a good place to ask? (please?)08:49
backports-r-usIt's related to a Universe package :)08:49
rob^^^ogra: that's wayy too mcuh08:50
\shtseng: no ugh...the only thing I could buy for my money :)08:50
tsengyou can get a "free" sun ultra20 :P08:50
backports-r-uswhat's the GNOME function for getting the filename of the wallpaper?08:50
ograrob^^^, really ? 08:51
rob^^^ogra: indeed. in the US you can regularly get them for about $80 after rebates08:51
ograwith case and all ? 08:51
\shrob^^^: and when you import them .. you have to pay customs like hell...08:51
rob^^^ogra: or external?08:51
rob^^^err oh08:52
ograyes, uUSB HD08:52
rob^^^hrmmm didn't notice hte uSB in there but you can get those for $30 here08:52
ogra-u08:52
ograso i'm at 110 + wire ...08:52
ogramight come up to 120 ...08:53
\shrob^^^: calculating the customs plus the hw prices ... the result will be the same price like here..or even more expensive08:53
ograand i pay 20 for not having to assemble it ;)08:53
rob^^^man, how do yall make ends meet over there08:53
rob^^^I'd definately buy a lot less than half the amount of computer junk if it cost twice as much08:54
rob^^^ogra: is that 160 tax inclusive?08:56
ogra140 all inclusive08:56
rob^^^oh 14008:56
rob^^^yeah that's ok I guess08:57
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\shogra: btw...did you buy this mac now?08:58
ogra\sh, still waiting for an answer, i mailed them08:58
ograbut i will, they have plenty others for the same price ...08:58
rob^^^We just got an Aldi here, I still haven't been08:58
ograand i can pick it up in pulheim08:58
\shogra: did you hit the "buy now" button?08:59
rob^^^what Mac are you buying?08:59
ograi have no ebay account ... and wont create one ...08:59
ograhttp://cgi.ebay.de/Apple-iMac-G3-blue-PowerPC-B_W0QQitemZ8728930419QQcategoryZ4603QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem09:00
\shogra: I have one...09:00
rob^^^those are quite slow these days09:01
ograits enough... i need one for install CD and live CD testing ... i dont develop on it09:01
rob^^^ogra: it will definately be faster than PEARPC ;)09:01
ograits cheap ... 09:02
rob^^^not having firewire ports is kinda a downer though for real use09:02
ograthats all i need ... and i can use it as thin client for ppc tests too 09:02
rob^^^what's a MINI run over there?09:02
rob^^^having a 128 meg machine for thin-client could be an asset I suppose09:03
ograbetween 4and 50009:03
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rob^^^ogra: probably the only PPC mac that will ever pass through your fingers eh?09:05
ogranope, my GF has a grey G4 and i had a iMac flowerpower before i gave away ...09:06
ograbut my GF does her work on hers, i cant play with install CDs on it 09:06
rob^^^oh09:06
Amaranthppc is dead09:06
ograthast why i have to care for it for ltsp ... 09:06
rob^^^ogra: is it sawtooth or silverdoor?09:06
xhakerusers ppc computers are not09:06
ograthey will get cheap ...09:06
ograrob^^^, no idea, its grey :)09:07
rob^^^the silverdoors have silver reflective doors09:07
rob^^^they go all the way up to like dual 1.25 I believe09:07
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\shogra: http://cgi.ebay.de/apple-Mac-Mini-1-25-Ghz-512-40-COMBO_W0QQitemZ8731815198QQcategoryZ99526QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem09:23
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ogra\sh, yes, will be around 700~1000 in the end ...09:24
ograi'd bet09:25
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\shogra: i'll have it on my viewlist09:26
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HieronymusMy webcam crashes Gnomemeeting, and takes the system with it. What info should I put in a bugreport09:27
ograHieronymus, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs09:28
Hieronymusogra: well, I know how to file bugs.. but the webcam crashes my system...09:29
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mdke_Hieronymus, saying that would be a good start.09:31
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ograHieronymus, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=debug&titlesearch=Titel09:33
ograHieronymus, sorry i had the impression these pages were linked from the HelpingWithBugs page09:34
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stockholmogra: ping09:37
ograstockholm, pong :)09:37
stockholmogra: what about dec 17?09:37
stockholmogra: could you come to nrnberg? travel could be payed, i think09:38
ograhmm...09:38
stockholmogra: not by me but by the organizers.09:38
ogralol, i guessed so09:38
stockholmogra: are you familiar with arktur etc?09:38
ogranope 09:39
stockholmand the dramas involved? 09:39
stockholmi am not deeply initiated either.09:39
ograah, i remember the guy from essen09:40
ograhe's somewhat strange ... 09:40
stockholmbut i think it could be a good start to cooperation on this front. not just arktur, but others, too09:40
ograand i heard him tell people that edubuntu wasnt for them, they should use his distro09:40
stockholmah, right.09:40
ograas well as skole wasnt for them09:41
stockholmand he really is compentent. (c:09:41
ograheh09:41
stockholmthey came to our mailinglist for some time and tried to diss us (c:09:41
ograi'm not sure if i really want to donate my sparetime to him09:41
stockholmis he an old ugly guy? then it is Helmut Hullen and he wont be there.09:42
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ogranote that my company wont pay for it so it will be in my private time ...09:42
ograyes...09:42
stockholmyes, he wont come.09:42
stockholmhe does not have many friends, for some reason.09:42
ograunderstandable09:42
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ograhow is the skole relationship to Arktur ?09:43
ograexcept him dissing you09:43
azeemugh, Helmut Hullen09:43
ogralol09:43
ograhe seems to be well known in the german community *g*09:44
stockholmthey dont like us because kurt garmlich (know him?) make a great job in marketing and debian-edu is better known then arktur in germany, despite arktur being really old09:44
stockholmogra: there are three forks in arktur, helmut hullen does one of them. the oldest and most broken one09:44
ograi heard his name, but i dont know him09:44
stockholmthe other two forks will attend.09:45
ograis it woody based ? 09:45
stockholmno, it is a mixture of redhat, suse and slackware09:45
stockholmi dont know how it works in detail09:46
ograouch09:46
ograsounds greatly upgradeable and stable :P09:46
stockholmyes, very ouch. no security support. and you have to recompile everything or it wont fit in09:46
ograedugentoo ? 09:46
stockholmit is a nightmare. 09:47
ograsounds like09:47
stockholmbut ct supports it09:47
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stockholmor distributes it09:47
mdzmjg59: have you talked with anyone about getting radeontool and smartdimmer into main?09:47
ogragive me some days to think about, i'm not sure if i can make some free time ...09:47
stockholmok09:47
mdzmjg59: they're tiny; if they're sanely packaged and don't introduce any security concerns it should be straightforward09:47
ograstockholm, why do they do that ? 09:48
ograstockholm, do they get money for promoting it ? 09:48
stockholmogra: historic reasons, i guess.09:48
ograi'd expect more from ct09:48
micheleI have this problem (solved) where I always get an error when unmountin the ipod shuffle because hal wants to eject it09:49
stockholmit used to be the first think like this09:49
stockholmogra: it has quite an install base in germany. 5000 schools or so09:49
ographew09:49
micheleI fixed it by setting storage.requires_eject to false in 10-storage-policy.fdi09:50
micheleit's related to https://bugzilla.ubuntulinux.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213409:50
ograthat'd be worth going ... but i also have ot make mdz happy and finish my work ;)09:50
micheleI don't know if I should reopen that bug, report something else, or...09:50
ograand i regulary do the stuff thats left from the week on saturdays09:50
stockholmogra: in my oppinion mdz should make time for that. it is directly work related09:51
stockholmmdz: ?09:51
mjg59mdz: Uhm. I was under the impression that the process was automatic.09:51
ograstockholm, it isnt, my focus is ltsp development and i have deadlines09:51
stockholmhrm.09:51
dholbachhave a nice evening09:51
ograedubuntu wont see much further improvements this release09:51
ograexcept community contributed stuff but thats just starting slowly 09:52
mjg59mdz: The packaging looks sane09:52
stockholmi dont know how you work. i think it is import enough for me to travel for a few days.09:52
stockholmso obviously i would expect mdz to think similarly09:53
ograstockholm, mdz is and thinks like a CTO, not like a merketing guy ;) (which is important)09:53
mdzmjg59: it has never been automatic; http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionQueue09:53
stockholmi dont go there for marketing reasons at all. it is a developer meeting. 09:54
ograhmm09:54
mjg59mdz: Ah, right09:54
stockholmthey explicitly DIDnt want kurt garmlich there, eventhough he is intimatly familiar with the german scene.09:54
stockholmbecause he is not a developer but marketing person 09:55
ograstockholm, as i said, give me some time to think about it ... its before christmas and time is short09:55
stockholmsure.09:55
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stockholmogra: what was your email? i just got an info mail about the meeting10:09
ograogra@ubuntu.com10:09
stockholm*surprise*10:10
stockholm(c:10:10
ograheh10:10
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jelkneris this an ok place to ask a question about what appears to be a network bug?10:11
lifelessjelkner: if you are not asking for *help* with it, but rather how to *help us fix it* - sure ;)10:12
lifelessthats the difference between support and development ;)10:12
jelknerlifeless: yes, but i somewhere in the middle10:13
jelkneri need to ask for help first, to be sure i have a bug to report10:13
jelkner(i'm pretty sure i do)10:13
jelknerand then i need to figure out which package to file it on10:13
jelknerproblem: networking does not work after a breezy install on a toshiba satellite m45-s26910:14
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jelknerthe devices (both ethernet and wireless) appear to be recognized, but no connections are possible from either one10:15
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mdzjelkner: seems a bit fishy that they both fail to work in the same way; I'd look for an external problem first10:17
jelknersuch as?10:18
jelkneri have several other machines on the same network10:18
jelknerincluding a laptop using wireless10:18
jelknerthe other machines can connect without problem10:18
jelknerthe toshiba can not10:18
stockholmjelkner: some security thing perhaps?10:18
jelkneri feel confident it is a problem with the toshiba10:18
jelknernope, *all* security has been turned off10:19
jelkneri brought another laptop which i know works to test10:19
stockholmjelkner: does it work with other software?10:19
jelknerdon't know, i guess i could try knoppix10:19
jelknerlet me do that10:19
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ProN00bi need to make a 280gig file as fast as i can, the space doesn't need to be allocated and its contents do not matter, any idea ?10:34
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KamionProN00b: dd if=/dev/null of=bigfile count=$((1024*1024*1024)) skip=28010:37
Kamioner10:37
KamionProN00b: dd if=/dev/null of=bigfile bs=1 seek=$((280*1024*1024*1024)) count=010:37
Kamionignore the first, didn't mean to paste that10:37
Kamion(#ubuntu in future though ...)10:37
feugan3333Hi all. What is the easiest way to learn how to create kernel modules. On a stock build kernel or on default ubuntu kernel?10:38
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ProN00bKamion, count=0 really true ?10:39
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KamionProN00b: yes10:40
KamionI mean, count=1 if you prefer, but count=0 worked for me10:40
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lifelessso is xpdf meant to be installable with ubuntu-desktop ?10:44
elmoyou're meant to use evince now10:45
lifelessoh. Whats that ?10:45
elmoshiny new PDF/PS reader10:45
lifelessI've been holding up updates for a week now trying to keep pdf10:45
lifelessxpdf I mean10:45
elmobut xpdf should install with ubuntu-desktop, FWIW10:45
lifelessbecause all hte other readers I've seen blow donkeys10:45
elmodoes here anyway - assuming you mean breezy10:45
elmoevince is much better than xpdf10:45
elmoIMO10:45
azeemlifeless: try evince, it is love10:46
azeemGNOME love10:46
ograelmo++10:46
mdkeevince is quite nice10:46
lifelessokk, it is installed10:46
lifelessI shall give it a whirl10:46
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lifelessbut yes, xpdf seems to depend on pre c++ transition or something funky10:46
mdkethe text tends to disappear if you click on it10:46
mdkeotherwise its peachy10:46
lifelessit and devhelp10:47
lifelessthey both try to go away when ever I 'mark all upgrades'10:47
lifelessmvo: is there a 'why is this being removed' button in synaptic ?10:47
mvolifeless: no, but you can set "Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true" and see what it outputs. it's not very friendly though 10:48
lifelessgarh10:48
lifelesswould such a button make sense ?10:48
mvolifeless: it's something that libapt dosn't provide now. smart will be better in the future10:49
mvolifeless: under Settings/Set internal option10:49
mvoset variable to "Debug::pkgProblemResolver" and value to "true"10:50
mvoit will give some (more or less) usefull output to clog then10:50
mvoif you put it into a pastebin I'll have a look10:51
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Kamionmdz: it would be nice if the head entry of debian/changelog in your casper/main branch had some informative contents - it doesn't describe unionfs at all11:01
Kamionmdz: are you planning to release that to dapper? I know we're replacing a lot of it, but it would be nice to know which one I'm supposed to branch off for trivial changes11:01
Kamion(which one> main or breezy that is)11:01
ograKamion, always main 11:02
ograi asked the same about ltsp ;)11:02
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Kamionwell, casper probably needs an upload soon to get the live CD working again for Flight CD 2, and I don't want to suck in the unionfs code if it's insufficiently tested yet11:05
ograwell, yur decision, i was told breezy is done and the branch is there for historical reasons but unmaintained, might be different with casper11:06
Kamionit's mdz's decision, that's why I'm asking him :)11:07
ograindeed :)11:08
Kamionmdz: speaking of, please merge http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/casper/fixes, just a small tweak11:12
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lamont__infinity/elmo: anyone look at daily-di yet?11:20
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elmolamont: see kamion's response11:21
elmolamont: (i.e. he has)11:21
lamont__good11:21
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\shgrmpf11:48
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mdzKamion: hmm, yes, I forgot to update changelog when merging Tollef's branch. done now11:58
Kamionta11:59
Kamionheh, current live CD fails at nic-restricted-modules - d'oh12:00
mdzKamion: /fixes merged also, pushing now12:01

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