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| theCore | LaserJock: ping | 01:25 |
|---|---|---|
| LaserJock | theCore: hi | 01:28 |
| theCore | LaserJock: i build my first package ! | 01:28 |
| LaserJock | theCore: nice | 01:28 |
| theCore | LaserJock: it was quite easy dh_make | 01:29 |
| theCore | LaserJock: how i know how to make the guide | 01:29 |
| theCore | LaserJock: first we will need to introduce the reader howto build packages from source | 01:31 |
| theCore | LaserJock: just a quick review | 01:31 |
| theCore | LaserJock: after we put a basic tutorial, that walkthrough the reader | 01:32 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I've been thinking. Maybe we should start from scratch. | 01:32 |
| theCore | LaserJock: maybe ... | 01:32 |
| theCore | LaserJock: but I think we need catch the reader with something concret | 01:33 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I'm going to throw a quick outline together of what I'm thinking and put it on a wiki page | 01:33 |
| theCore | LaserJock: ok | 01:33 |
| LaserJock | theCore: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline | 01:41 |
| theCore | LaserJock: "Scope of guide" is quite the same of "Target Audience", isn't it ? | 01:45 |
| LaserJock | theCore: yeah pretty much | 01:46 |
| LaserJock | theCore: but its' a pretty rough outline ;-) | 01:47 |
| theCore | LaserJock: i know ;) | 01:47 |
| theCore | LaserJock: does Ubuntu has a list of orphaned packages ? | 01:54 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I don't really think there is any such thing in Ubuntu. At least for Universe packages the team as a whole is the maintainer | 01:55 |
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| theCore | LaserJock: i made somes changes | 02:27 |
| LaserJock | ok, I will be away for a bit. I'll be back a little later though. | 02:28 |
| theCore | me too, cya later | 02:28 |
| LaserJock | theCore: well, hmmm. I think we need to work through these. I don't want to seem critical but I was trying to get away from the DNMG but the changes you made kinda seem like it turns it into that. | 02:32 |
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| theCore | LaserJock: im back | 03:36 |
| LaserJock | theCore: now II'm back :-) | 03:57 |
| theCore | nice | 03:57 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i think we try to make the Packaging guide both a introduction and a refrence guide | 04:00 |
| theCore | *reference | 04:01 |
| theCore | LaserJock, in what way you want to get away from DNMG ? | 04:03 |
| LaserJock | theCore: well, I would like to start getting into examples earlier | 04:07 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i think so too | 04:07 |
| theCore | LaserJock, but before getting to the examples, the reader must configure his system propely | 04:08 |
| LaserJock | theCore: my thought would be that we would only require build-essentials and devscripts to start with. Then as the examples progress will start each example with the programs needed. | 04:10 |
| theCore | LaserJock, hmm, then we need to put the require programs as an annexes | 04:11 |
| theCore | LaserJock, all right then | 04:11 |
| LaserJock | theCore: no just say at the beginning of each section, "Required programs : ..." | 04:12 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i see ... | 04:12 |
| theCore | LaserJock, good lets make like that | 04:12 |
| LaserJock | that way the reader doesn't get overwhelmed in figuring out the packages they need to install and what they do before we have even started an example | 04:13 |
| theCore | LaserJock, good idea | 04:14 |
| theCore | LaserJock, edit the wiki then | 04:15 |
| LaserJock | theCore: the other thing is I would like to put most of the stuff you have in "Files under /debian" into the Packaging scenarios. I invision that most of the material will be in that section | 04:15 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i wanted this section as a reference of all the options of those file | 04:16 |
| theCore | LaserJock, maybe, we should divide the guide in 2 parts: a tutorial and a reference part | 04:18 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I was thinking more basic part and advanced part but yeah something like that | 04:19 |
| theCore | LaserJock, we could divide the tutorial in 2 parts too: basic and adv. ... | 04:20 |
| LaserJock | theCore: ok, let me edit the wiki a bit and we can go through it again. Thanks for doing this with me. It really helps to have somebody to talk things over with. | 04:20 |
| theCore | LaserJock, no prob. | 04:20 |
| theCore | LaserJock, however, there is something with which I stand firmly for: the user must get no errors | 04:24 |
| LaserJock | theCore: of course ;-) | 04:25 |
| theCore | LaserJock, so we need to adapt properly the commands | 04:26 |
| LaserJock | theCore: yes and I hope to get lots of proofreading from the MOTU and the core devs. | 04:26 |
| theCore | LaserJock, me too | 04:26 |
| theCore | LaserJock, today when i was reading DNMG, I got a gnupg error with dh_make and it's only at the end they shown how to configure it so it works | 04:28 |
| LaserJock | theCore: yeah, stuff like that would be good to avoid, although it is an easy mistake to make sometimes | 04:31 |
| theCore | LaserJock, we need to get to the user a real package to make | 04:32 |
| theCore | LaserJock, like that we can tweak the guide so the reader go get an obscur error | 04:33 |
| theCore | LaserJock, but we will need a set of good packages, so we can show all the typical error and problem to get over with | 04:34 |
| theCore | LaserJock, so how is it going with the wiki? | 04:36 |
| LaserJock | theCore: sorry, still working on it. I was trying to help my wife decorate a Christmas tree for a minute. | 04:37 |
| theCore | LaserJock, lol | 04:38 |
| LaserJock | theCore: yes, minghua suggested the hello packages. That is what they are designed for | 04:38 |
| theCore | LaserJock, ok lets go with the hello pkg | 04:38 |
| theCore | LaserJock, maybe it would be cooler for the reader using a real package | 04:40 |
| theCore | LaserJock, so at the end he didn't read the guide for nothing | 04:41 |
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| LaserJock | theCore: ok, check it out | 04:58 |
| LaserJock | theCore: it still needs some work | 04:58 |
| theCore | LaserJock, okay | 04:58 |
| theCore | LaserJock, not bad ... | 05:00 |
| LaserJock | theCore: the thing is that most of the material should be done in the packaging scenarios because that is where the examples will mainly be | 05:02 |
| theCore | LaserJock, true | 05:03 |
| LaserJock | theCore: but at this point it is hard to show that on an outline | 05:03 |
| theCore | LaserJock, why did you put Binary & Source packages before the walkthrough ? | 05:03 |
| LaserJock | theCore: because the reader should understand the difference between them I think before they really start getting into it, then you say " This is how you create the source packages" | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | if you say that before they know the difference I think there might be confusion | 05:05 |
| LaserJock | in fact maybe "Tools needed for development" should be after the overview | 05:06 |
| theCore | LaserJock, okay, can you explain to me what do you consider a source pkg ( are talking about the .tar.{gz,bz2} package ? ) | 05:06 |
| theCore | LaserJock, nah , i don't think so | 05:07 |
| LaserJock | theCore: the source pkg is the .orig.tar.gz, .dsc, and an optional .diff.gz file | 05:07 |
| theCore | LaserJock, okay | 05:07 |
| LaserJock | theCore: that is what the packager deals with almost exclusively, not the binary packages | 05:08 |
| theCore | LaserJock, we should add a quick tutorial on how building a package just with the source | 05:10 |
| LaserJock | theCore: what do you mean exactly? | 05:10 |
| theCore | LaserJock, building form a tarball | 05:10 |
| theCore | from* | 05:10 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I think that should be covered in the "Packages from scratch" scenario | 05:11 |
| theCore | LaserJock, or maybe we should put that into the prerequisites | 05:11 |
| theCore | ah okay, i see | 05:11 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I think the point should be to get the reader to the scenarios as quickly as possible | 05:12 |
| theCore | true | 05:12 |
| LaserJock | theCore: the getting started section should just get everybody on the same page | 05:13 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i just figured out what you wanna do | 05:13 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i think so, too | 05:14 |
| theCore | LaserJock, the scenario idea is nice | 05:14 |
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| LaserJock | theCore: I think that is the distinction I'm trying to make with the DNMG | 05:15 |
| theCore | LaserJock, and i think it's great way to do it | 05:15 |
| LaserJock | theCore: well, I hope it will work | 05:16 |
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| theCore | LaserJock, i think we will need to rebuild the whole DocBook XML file, because the current one is quite crapy | 05:17 |
| LaserJock | theCore: how so? you mean content or the actual XML? | 05:17 |
| theCore | LaserJock, both | 05:18 |
| LaserJock | theCore: I agree. Although I did try to get the first couple of sections tidied up a bit | 05:18 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i think we will need to rebuild the whole DocBook XML file, because the current one is quite crapy | 05:18 |
| theCore | oups | 05:19 |
| theCore | wrong key ... :( | 05:19 |
| theCore | LaserJock, for now, it's just a DocBook convertion of DNMG | 05:20 |
| LaserJock | theCore: with some wiki thrown in | 05:20 |
| theCore | and a diagram | 05:20 |
| LaserJock | yep, I mean the original author did quite a bit of work, but I think we need to go with this other approach | 05:21 |
| theCore | i agree | 05:22 |
| theCore | LaserJock, do we start ? | 05:25 |
| LaserJock | theCore: yes. I think the first step would be to flesh out that outline a little bit more and get the Getting Started section done. That shouldn't take too long. | 05:26 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i think we should use the wiki as a development area, and then when we finish a section we could do the DocBook conversion | 05:28 |
| LaserJock | theCore: yeah, at least until I get commit access to the repo ;-) | 05:30 |
| theCore | LaserJock, lol | 05:30 |
| LaserJock | Hopefully that will be right after Tuesday's CC meeting | 05:31 |
| theCore | you are lucky, i would like to get a access too ... but anyway ... | 05:33 |
| LaserJock | keep on working and you will. | 05:33 |
| theCore | LaserJock, hmm dh-make as an advance tool ? | 05:33 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i'm sure about that | 05:33 |
| LaserJock | theCore: well we will have to see. I just stuck them there for now until we know what we will put in the scenarios | 05:35 |
| theCore | http://www.us.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ap-pkg-eg.en.html <<<< that was, for me, the most useful part of the DNMG | 05:36 |
| LaserJock | theCore: right, those kinds of things are what we should be focused on. I was really dissapointed when I read through all the material and then all the good stuff was at the end | 05:38 |
| theCore | LaserJock, lol, me too | 05:38 |
| theCore | LaserJock, but me i started reading the guide from the end ;) | 05:39 |
| theCore | LaserJock, what are the packages we use for the examples ? | 05:41 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i think we need some concrete examples with real packages | 05:42 |
| LaserJock | hello, hello-dbs, and hello-debhelper are already in Ubuntu | 05:43 |
| LaserJock | we may need to add others if we need to do more | 05:43 |
| theCore | hello packages are not what i call concrete example ... but they will do the jobs ... | 05:45 |
| theCore | are they in tar.gz format ? | 05:45 |
| LaserJock | theCore: why not? they were designed for showing how to package | 05:46 |
| LaserJock | theCore: they are just like any other package | 05:46 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i dunno, i wouldn't feel proud building an hello package, i would, more likely, feel dumb | 05:47 |
| theCore | but that my point of view | 05:47 |
| Madpilot | Isn't "Hello World" the standard first step in programming? why shouldn't it be the first step in package-building? ;) | 05:47 |
| LaserJock | theCore: take a look at hello | 05:48 |
| theCore | Madpilot, maybe ... :-/ | 05:48 |
| LaserJock | the worst thing we can do is pick a package that either will change enough that the example will need to get updated often or it won't work anymore, or something that will need a bunch of dependecies | 05:49 |
| LaserJock | the other thing is that a lot of packages aren't exactly the best examples of packaging | 05:49 |
| theCore | LaserJock, okay ... i'm conviced ... but i still have some doubts | 05:51 |
| LaserJock | theCore: well, I admit that the outcome isn't terribly exciting but I think it is better than having readers chase down dependencies | 05:52 |
| theCore | LaserJock, i really the LinuxFromScratch book and they show tough example | 05:54 |
| LaserJock | I mean it's got postinst and prerm scripts, autotools | 05:54 |
| theCore | LaserJock, for me, LFS is the best book out on the web to learn linux | 05:55 |
| theCore | LaserJock, the whole book is one big example | 05:56 |
| theCore | LaserJock, so maybe we should use their way ... | 05:58 |
| theCore | ... mixed with your | 05:58 |
| LaserJock | theCore: hmm, how would it be different? | 05:59 |
| theCore | theCore, it's wouldn't have dumb examples | 06:00 |
| theCore | LaserJock, * | 06:01 |
| LaserJock | theCore: really though, how dumb is it? Packagers often don't care about what they are packaging they just need to do it | 06:01 |
| theCore | LaserJock, yea .. maybe | 06:02 |
| LaserJock | theCore: well, it might be the easiest starting point, unless you have something better | 06:03 |
| theCore | LaserJock, ok, lets do it like this then | 06:04 |
| theCore | LaserJock, now, we really need to concentrate on the Packaging Scenarios, i think it's really a good idea | 06:05 |
| theCore | LaserJock, those will be existing for the readers | 06:06 |
| theCore | LaserJock, and enriching too | 06:07 |
| LaserJock | I hope so | 06:07 |
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| theCore | LaserJock, so what are you doing right now ? | 06:29 |
| LaserJock | theCore: looking at your changes ;-) | 06:30 |
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| theCore | LaserJock, so? | 06:32 |
| LaserJock | theCore: couple of changes, check it now | 06:36 |
| theCore | LaserJock, cdbs ? | 06:37 |
| LaserJock | yep | 06:37 |
| theCore | LaserJock, what is it exactly ? | 06:37 |
| LaserJock | http://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml | 06:39 |
| theCore | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=51003 <<< could be useful | 06:45 |
| LaserJock | yes, I've seen that before | 06:47 |
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| theCore | http://women.alioth.debian.org/wiki/index.php/English/BuildingWithoutHelper <<< could be useful too | 07:00 |
| LaserJock | yes | 07:07 |
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| theCore | I gotta go sleep, cya later | 07:08 |
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| jsgotangco | hey guys | 02:31 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | hi | 02:32 |
| jsgotangco | hey Kamping_Kaiser what's up? | 02:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | about to try and work out why pam fails for *one* username on a server :( | 02:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | it's going to be impossible | 02:32 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | same user, added removed 3 times, still on joy. | 02:33 |
| jjesse | is there a sync time for PAM? | 02:46 |
| jjesse | i know in Active Directory there is a delay when you remove a username and it syncs across the domain controllers | 02:46 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | i thought it was imidate. | 02:46 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | *shrug*. | 02:46 |
| jjesse | Kamping_Kaiser: i don't know PAM at all just a thought | 02:47 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | worth looking at if i cant get it | 02:47 |
| Kamping_Kaiser | so thaniks :) | 02:47 |
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| theCore | hello there | 04:58 |
| jjesse | hello theCore | 05:10 |
| theCore | jjesse: do you work on some doc ? | 05:11 |
| jjesse | yes i do, mostly kubuntu docs :) | 05:11 |
| theCore | ah, nice | 05:11 |
| theCore | on my side, i work on the PackagingGuide | 05:12 |
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| jjesse | oh how is that going? | 05:13 |
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| LaserJock | mdke_: ping? | 07:36 |
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| mdke_ | LaserJock, pong | 08:40 |
| LaserJock | mdke_: I had a long discussion last night with theCore about the packaging guide | 08:42 |
| mdke_ | cool | 08:42 |
| jjesse | theCore was on here earlier today | 08:42 |
| LaserJock | we kinda were thinking that maybe it would be best to start from scratch on the Packaging Guide | 08:43 |
| mdke_ | ok | 08:43 |
| LaserJock | it would help to eleviate the license issues but we also wanted to do it in a different way that will, I think, be much easier on the reader | 08:44 |
| mdke_ | did you contact Diziet about the developer documentation spec? | 08:44 |
| mdke_ | dude, seriously don't worry about the licence issues. but if you want to rework it, that's fine | 08:44 |
| LaserJock | mdke_: yes, I talked to Diziet a while back and he thought that there wasn't any problem for us to do the Packaging Guide. He thought that there wouldn't be much overlap | 08:45 |
| mdke_ | oh right | 08:45 |
| LaserJock | mdke_: well the license thing wasn't a big deal. I just think that right now it is too similar to the Debian New Maintainer Guide and theCore and I saw that there might be a better way to do it | 08:46 |
| mdke_ | ok | 08:46 |
| mdke_ | LaserJock, will you continue working in our repo? | 08:47 |
| LaserJock | we made an outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline | 08:47 |
| LaserJock | mdke_: oh, for sure. I am commited to getting a Packaging Guide in the doc-team repo by the time Dapper is released | 08:48 |
| mdke_ | awesome | 08:48 |
| LaserJock | tomorrow hopefully I will become a Ubuntu member so then it will be a little easier | 08:49 |
| jjesse | LaserJock: did i say i would speak up for you? i don't remember if i did or not | 08:49 |
| LaserJock | jjesse: you did, but if you can't make it or something that's ok | 08:49 |
| mdke_ | i'll leave a message with someone | 08:50 |
| jjesse | nope still planing on being there | 08:50 |
| LaserJock | well, hopefully it won't be to bad. I have a couple of MOTUs to speak for me also. | 08:51 |
| mdke_ | you'll be fine | 08:51 |
| LaserJock | mdke_: anyway, I just wanted talk to you about the Packaging Guide and what thCore and I were thinking | 08:52 |
| mdke_ | LaserJock, i don't know squat about packaging, but I'll certainly support anything you want to do with the guide | 08:53 |
| LaserJock | mdke_: thanks | 08:54 |
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